Cyclical Ketogenic Diet + Intermittent Fasting

Hey everyone! I was wondering how I would go about implementing the CKD and IF. I kinda have an idea, but I'm not to sure. I plan on using a workout routine designed for CKD. In one of the Keto forums, there is a thread from Blindfaith titled, "Step By Step Keto Diet Plan." I will be using the workout from that thread most likely, if not, something fairly similar.

I'm guessing I would need to follow some of the keto guidelines (i.e. 65% fat, 30% protein, 0-5% carbs, as well as carb refeeeding during the weekends) and some IF guidelines (i.e. 16/8, 10g bcaa pre-workout). Monday through thursday I would be doing IF, while implementing keto guidelines mentioned above to enter ketosis. Friday will be my depletion workout followed by a carb refeed. I understand that a carb refeed lasts anywhere from 24-36hrs, starting Friday evening and ending Saturday at midnight. Correct me if I'm wrong because I've been doing a lot of research lately and still trying to process it all so I can get the ball rolling finally. Anyways, fridays and saturdays would be used strictly for carb refeeding, which would mean that I have to ditch IF starting friday evening until saturday at midnight. I would begin IF again starting Sunday morning.

What I need to know is if this would work out. Thoughts, input, and concerns are all welcome. Thank you in advance!

[QUOTE=jcpryor3;969588913]Hey everyone! I was wondering how I would go about implementing the CKD and IF. I kinda have an idea, but I'm not to sure. I plan on using a workout routine designed for CKD. In one of the Keto forums, there is a thread from Blindfaith titled, "Step By Step Keto Diet Plan." I will be using the workout from that thread most likely, if not, something fairly similar.

I'm guessing I would need to follow some of the keto guidelines (i.e. 65% fat, 30% protein, 0-5% carbs, as well as carb refeeeding during the weekends) and some IF guidelines (i.e. 16/8, 10g bcaa pre-workout). Monday through thursday I would be doing IF, while implementing keto guidelines mentioned above to enter ketosis. Friday will be my depletion workout followed by a carb refeed. I understand that a carb refeed lasts anywhere from 24-36hrs, starting Friday evening and ending Saturday at midnight. Correct me if I'm wrong because I've been doing a lot of research lately and still trying to process it all so I can get the ball rolling finally. Anyways, fridays and saturdays would be used strictly for carb refeeding, which would mean that I have to ditch IF starting friday evening until saturday at midnight. I would begin IF again starting Sunday morning.

What I need to know is if this would work out. Thoughts, input, and concerns are all welcome. Thank you in advance![/QUOTE]

Yes, it will work well. The reason IF works well with a ketogenic/sustained lipolytic nutritional pattern is that there is no significant amount of glycogen storage (except during recompensation periods) which acts as a buffer that interferes with sustained and adapted lipolysis. That's why IF combined with a carb-based cut often shows little advantage, due to the constant presence of glycogen, depending upon types and amounts of carbs consumed...

If I'm understanding you correctly, your saying that IF + CKD work great together right? And IF complimented with a carb based diet has little advantage due to higher glycogen stores right?

Has anyone successfully implemented IF along with CKD? If so, can you explain your day to day nutrition setup? I would really appreciate it.

I took a look at Lyle McDonalds book, "The Ketogenic Diet," and read up on the things I wasn't too familiar with. Lyle suggests: BW * 12 = Daily Caloric Intake. For myself it would be this: 210 * 12 = 2,520 calories per day. Is that correct? I remember taking a look at Steve Cook's "Big Man On Campus" program and he suggest: BW * 17.5 = Daily Caloric Intake. Ex. 210 * 17.5 = 3,675 calories per day. Which one should I follow? Keep in mind, my goal is to burn fat while maintaining muscle, and/or build new muscle if that is possible. I just need to make sure I have the basics down. Depending on the two suggestions I mentioned above, how would I adjust my daily caloric intake in order to build new muscle and burn fat at the same time. Remember, I will be implementing CKD along with a 16/8 IF protocol.

[QUOTE=jcpryor3;970193883]If I'm understanding you correctly, your saying that IF + CKD work great together right? And IF complimented with a carb based diet has little advantage due to higher glycogen stores right?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

Bump...can someone please help me out. I really wanna start implementing all of this. I feel like I'm wasting my time in the gym without a proper diet. I eat whatevers around right now. So finding out this information is extremely important to me. Thank you in advance for any feedback and input!

man. i have just been eating a deficit of 600, lifting and eating a very friendly 30/35/30 p/c/f diet and im having amazing results fatloss and strength wise. my advice is dont overcomplicate there is nothing more sure at this time than the proven and solid principles of the law of thermodynamics. not a single hormone/macroratio can **** with this.

[QUOTE=CurltonBench;971922833]man. i have just been eating a deficit of 600, lifting and eating a very friendly 30/35/30 p/c/f diet and im having amazing results fatloss and strength wise. my advice is dont overcomplicate there is nothing more sure at this time than the proven and solid principles of the law of thermodynamics. not a single hormone/macroratio can **** with this.[/QUOTE]

The last thing I want to do is over complicate things. I just need to figure out my daily calorie intake/maintenance. From there I will be fine. If someone could help me do that, I would really appreciate it!

Bumpitt bump bump....I really need YOUR help (:

that combo is probly really good for fat loss. bad for bulking imo.

[QUOTE=KLMARB;969768933]Yes, it will work well. The reason IF works well with a ketogenic/sustained lipolytic nutritional pattern is that there is no significant amount of glycogen storage (except during recompensation periods) which acts as a buffer that interferes with sustained and adapted lipolysis. That's why IF combined with a carb-based cut often shows little advantage, due to the constant presence of glycogen, depending upon types and amounts of carbs consumed...[/QUOTE] well what carb sources will you be consuming on refeed days? and how many grams of carbs?

[QUOTE=transformerchad;973078053]well what carb sources will you be consuming on refeed days? and how many grams of carbs?[/QUOTE]

You can find the basics in the "Step by step ketogenic diet plan" by Blindfaith over on the Keto board.....

I did this about a year ago. It was the beginning of my body recomp. It was amazing for weight loss, however as said ITT you will not have much success bulking, I didn't realize this for about 6 months after I hit my weight loss goals and ended up wasting about 6 months in the gym. Don't make the same mistake I did and when you hit your weight loss goals switch to a bulk IF diet and enjoy the gains

Also I am not sure why you are dropping IF on the weekend, your refeed should not have any affect on the IF eating window, just hit your refeeds in that window and don't worry about the 24-36 hour you speak of, the point is to refill your glycogen supplies which you can accomplish easily within the IF regiment

I'm very curious as to the logic of how IF+keto is much different than IF+regular diet. Anyone who has more insight into this care to elaborate? Thanks.

[QUOTE=saw7988;976274533]I'm very curious as to the logic of how IF+keto is much different than IF+regular diet. Anyone who has more insight into this care to elaborate? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Huge difference, IF + Keto = no carb intake above 50g (or less) accept on a specific refeed day....IF + regular diet = mod/high carb intake on workout days

I understand the difference between keto and regular diets, I'm asking about why some people think IF + keto works better than IF + regular.

Most specifically, this:

[QUOTE=KLMARB;969768933]Yes, it will work well. The reason IF works well with a ketogenic/sustained lipolytic nutritional pattern is that there is no significant amount of glycogen storage (except during recompensation periods) which acts as a buffer that interferes with sustained and adapted lipolysis. That's why IF combined with a carb-based cut often shows little advantage, due to the constant presence of glycogen, depending upon types and amounts of carbs consumed...[/QUOTE]

I'm currently on a Keto + IF too.
My question is:
To eat or Not to Eat post-workout when on a keto. I always have my post-workout Whey + Oats right after working out walking to my next class but today I decided to try and take advantage of that extra fat burning by trying to go as long as I can without it. I'm still taking it with 1/2 the serving of oats I usually take; just enough to replenish glycogen enough for my next workout or so. Note that I just got out of a 16hr fast (an hour of which was spent working out). Not eating right after made me feel like sht. It's my 2nd month on IF and I can tell the difference between a burn and just feeling like crap. I was extremely light headed walking and by the time I got to the venue I felt like I was gonna faint.
Guess about 30 minutes is the most I can go (at least now) eating nothing post-workout.

[QUOTE=LemCastro;978980863]I'm currently on a Keto + IF too.
My question is:
To eat or Not to Eat post-workout when on a keto. I always have my post-workout Whey + Oats right after working out walking to my next class but today I decided to try and take advantage of that extra fat burning by trying to go as long as I can without it. I'm still taking it with 1/2 the serving of oats I usually take; just enough to replenish glycogen enough for my next workout or so. Note that I just got out of a 16hr fast (an hour of which was spent working out). Not eating right after made me feel like sht. It's my 2nd month on IF and I can tell the difference between a burn and just feeling like crap. I was extremely light headed walking and by the time I got to the venue I felt like I was gonna faint.
Guess about 30 minutes is the most I can go (at least now) eating nothing post-workout.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that you have not fully adapted into lipolysis, (or rather, "out" of lipogenesis) due to your oat intake. Your body is trying to reestablish its anorexigenic hormone resistance levels each time you eat the oats. What you are describing is an anorexigenic hormone resistance withdrawl reaction, occurring when you reach the hypoglycemic threshold and begin secreting glucagon. Stop eating the carbs, start eating fat instead. After three or four days your energy levels will return to normal due to the reduction of these resistance levels.

bump for update ? looking to try this out...

Ive been on IF for about 25 weeks now..started with 16/8 > 18/6 now 20/4 fast/eating window im looking to start a CKD after new years...

I've been trying keto + IF for the past 4 weeks. So far, I've been able to drop 24 lbs. (218 on 12/25 -> 194 today). Not sure what my bf %s were, but I assume that most of my loss has been fat, due to the fact that I have maintained my weights and intensity in the gym.

My theory is as follows:

There are two types of "net" gains; 1) any absolute gain and 2) minimization of loss. I am using keto for a very specific reason: I want to burn/lose fat. I am using IF for the "net gain." By this, I mean that, from what I've read, muscle loss can be a very real part of a ketogenic diet. Maintaining glycogen stores while lifting, 7 days a week, all while trying to maximize fat loss, would be hard to do. As such, the IF component makes it easier to control my calorie intake, as well as minimizing my potential losses. I would say that I'm 16/8, because I do have 16-20 oz of Gatorade during workout to increase insulin (hopefully decreasing cortisone - I don't want protein being broken down). For dinner, at around 8pm, I have a chicken breast, pan seared in MCT oil and finished on the grill (about 8 oz.). Sometimes a bit of cheese and/or homemade green salsa. I've calculated this to be around 1000 calories per day, which must leave me at about 1800 deficit, as I seem to drop 1/2 lb per day.

As I've stated, I have not noticed any decrease in my lifts. Once I get down to my target bf% (or at least my desired aesthetic), I will probably incorporate more post-workout carbs (no more than 300g), more fats/proteins at night, until I achieve my goal of 2800-3200 calories per day. In the end, I will shoot for IF + regular diet (sticking to 16/8). I'll have to see how it all ends up.

[QUOTE=MiaBeachBum;1196098101]I've been trying keto + IF for the past 4 weeks. So far, I've been able to drop 24 lbs. (218 on 12/25 -> 194 today). Not sure what my bf %s were, but I assume that most of my loss has been fat, due to the fact that I have maintained my weights and intensity in the gym.

My theory is as follows:

There are two types of "net" gains; 1) any absolute gain and 2) minimization of loss. I am using keto for a very specific reason: I want to burn/lose fat. I am using IF for the "net gain." By this, I mean that, from what I've read, muscle loss can be a very real part of a ketogenic diet. Maintaining glycogen stores while lifting, 7 days a week, all while trying to maximize fat loss, would be hard to do. As such, the IF component makes it easier to control my calorie intake, as well as minimizing my potential losses. I would say that I'm 16/8, because I do have 16-20 oz of Gatorade during workout to increase insulin (hopefully decreasing cortisone - I don't want protein being broken down). For dinner, at around 8pm, I have a chicken breast, pan seared in MCT oil and finished on the grill (about 8 oz.). Sometimes a bit of cheese and/or homemade green salsa. I've calculated this to be around 1000 calories per day, which must leave me at about 1800 deficit, as I seem to drop 1/2 lb per day.

As I've stated, I have not noticed any decrease in my lifts. Once I get down to my target bf% (or at least my desired aesthetic), I will probably incorporate more post-workout carbs (no more than 300g), more fats/proteins at night, until I achieve my goal of 2800-3200 calories per day. In the end, I will shoot for IF + regular diet (sticking to 16/8). I'll have to see how it all ends up.[/QUOTE]

So all you eat is the one meal per day? That cannot be good for you!

[QUOTE=saw7988;976274533]I'm very curious as to the logic of how IF+keto is much different than IF+regular diet. Anyone who has more insight into this care to elaborate? Thanks.[/QUOTE]


IF + Keto is of course the deprivation of the easy source of energy, carbs and sugars and having your body depend on the slower and more efficient energy, fat. The body immediately takes in fat source once fat adapted and when it is depleted the body will tap into your own fat storage, which eliminates most of the hunger pains, lowered energy and metabolism, mental and physical health aggravations like head aches and being hangry primarily associated with depletion of someone's diet who feeds off quick energy sources like sugar and carbs. So this is why keto goes perfectly well with an intermittent fast.

on a IF + regular diet... your body naturally craves the easiest source of energy it's used to (carbs or sugars). Your brain receptors will automatically tell your body it needs that immediate source of energy as soon as glycogen is depleted. (I primarily stick to keep the fats and carb sources separate which cyclical ketosis comes into factors for many reasons, glycogen replenishments, acid reflux from carbs, etc.) I used to do a balanced diet on a regular basis, I remember craving food every couple hours (whether i was training hard or very idle). I can imagine the body and mind raising in the stress hormone, cortisol, which causes you to gain weight to keep your energy fat storage abundant when your body "thinks" it's depleted from it's carb source while on an intermittent fasting regimen.

I've heard of carb back loading (loading every night) but i'd prefer to do a cyclical. I am pretty sure you would step out of ketosis if you feed carbs everyday... so preferably the best way to jump back into ketosis after a weekend carb load would be the most sufficient way.

M - TH Keto + IF + Supplement to keep nutrition deficiency
Supplements for weight loss - omega 3, 6, 9, mct, fish oil, cla and magnesium
Additional supplementation for muscle mass - bcaa and glutamine or creatine

F-S Carb Load + Supplements to break down glucose breakdown

Intermittent fasting during carb phase? The purpose of the carb load is to replenish the glycogen. I wouldn't want to overload the glycogen levels that will spill over to fat. Anyone see the science in this? Keep the glycogen at that max level but not to feed, feed, feed til it turns into fat? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of keeping the fat off? Possibly doing a intermittent fast thursday night, skip friday breakfast, and then go straight into the carb hammer time? (preferably hammer it out every 3 hours or so instead of bulk feeding one sitting)

I guess if you are really going to take it down to the science, cyclical ketosis, intermittent fasting, supplementing right, training properly, there shouldn't be too much of a give and take (shred and bulk)... should be able to to do quite simultaneously..?

[QUOTE=CurltonBench;971922833]man. i have just been eating a deficit of 600, lifting and eating a very friendly 30/35/30 p/c/f diet and im having amazing results fatloss and strength wise. my advice is dont overcomplicate there is nothing more sure at this time than the proven and solid principles of the law of thermodynamics. not a single hormone/macroratio can **** with this.[/QUOTE]

This is a little over simplified and there are threads on this same page that show macro ratio does indeed have an effect on body composition. If you're purely talking about body weight than sure, it can be reduced to "laws of thermodynamics". However, given this is a body building forum, I'm sure the default context IS body composition.

[QUOTE=gamblemuch;975696723]I did this about a year ago. It was the beginning of my body recomp. It was amazing for weight loss, however as said ITT you will not have much success bulking, I didn't realize this for about 6 months after I hit my weight loss goals and ended up wasting about 6 months in the gym. Don't make the same mistake I did and when you hit your weight loss goals switch to a bulk IF diet and enjoy the gains

Also I am not sure why you are dropping IF on the weekend, your refeed should not have any affect on the IF eating window, just hit your refeeds in that window and don't worry about the 24-36 hour you speak of, the point is to refill your glycogen supplies which you can accomplish easily within the IF regiment[/QUOTE]

You can definitely build muscle on a keto diet and just as much if not more than the conventional diet. It's a matter of properly balancing your caloric intake vs expenditure. It has even been shown that you can improve body comp (build muscle/lose fat) on maintenance calories with a keto diet.

IF itself, however, may not be the most ideal in terms of muscle building given the decreased number of times per day you will be maximizing MPS.



I really need to check post dates before replying......