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It would make sense to take some not only after your workout, but prior to your workout as well, right? I mean, thats not what the instructions say, but im sure it would be great for preventing your muscles from entering the catabolic state during your workout.
So if you can't get your hands on any good foods prior to working out, would taking glutamine suffice in this regard?
1. Glutamine is worthless
2. If you can't "get your hands" on good food preworkout, you need to seriously re-evaluate your goals.
Well I eat a big breakfast, then work out about an hour later. I was just thinking that maybe taking glutamine a few minutes before working out might help.
[QUOTE=ADubya26]Well I eat a big breakfast, then work out about an hour later. I was just thinking that maybe taking glutamine a few minutes before working out might help.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as an ass. Basically, many people believe that oral supplementation of glutamine is totally useless, and there is science to back that up.
Creatine + Glutamine in PWO shake if anything
Pre-workout - Glutamine is a must among other things.
...
Glutamine works.
Personally, I take ~2.5 grams pre-workout then 5 more post.
Since glutamine is the most abundant amino acid, it is also needed the most.
[QUOTE=skimmer]Glutamine works.
Personally, I take ~2.5 grams pre-workout then 5 more post.
Since glutamine is the most abundant amino acid, it is also needed the most.[/QUOTE]
What????
Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid......meaning it is the one you are LEAST likely to be deficient in......meaning it is the LEAST LIKELY to necessitate supplemenation.
In other words, you wasted your money.
I'm talking about in our bodies. Our muscles are 60% glutamine. Its often broken down it catabolic states.
If all this is a lie then why do they give glutamine do AIDs victims?
[QUOTE=skimmer]I'm talking about in our bodies. Our muscles are 60% glutamine. Its often broken down it catabolic states.
If all this is a lie then why do they give glutamine do AIDs victims?[/QUOTE]
Because AIDS patients stand to benefit from glutamine supplementation due to their SPECIFIC and UNIQUE disease status.
Healthy bodybuilders have almost nothing to gain by supplementing with glutamine, regardless of how much you paid for it.
Studies done on AIDS and burn patients were A) deficient in glutamine because of their situations, and B) given intravenous (IV) glutamine. Oral supplementation of glutamine is not very useful.
BCAAs and Glutamine will make you quite anabolic on their own...
[QUOTE=mondesi02]BCAAs and Glutamine will make you quite anabolic on their own...[/QUOTE]
If that were the case, I could eat nothing and take BCAAs and Glutamine all day and beat Ronnie Coleman.
[QUOTE=Bodybuilding.com]In a recent study of glutamine's role enhancing the immune system, glutamine demonstrated that increased levels of glutamine leads to greater amounts of virus and infection fighting cells, T and B Lymphocytes[7]. Cells of the immune system including the macro****es and lymphocytes depend on glutamine as a primary fuel source. In addition, it has been hypothesized that a high rate of glutamine consumption by these rapidly proliferating cells is required for sufficient nucleotide synthesis [14].
Research indicates that low levels of glutamine within the body may result in the increased susceptibility to infections and illness due to a suppressed immune system [2]. The ability to reproduce and the activity of immune cells in vitro have reportedly been suppressed in trials lacking glutamine [15]. Tests also demonstrated that the increased rate of infection and illness [particularly infections of the upper respiratory tract] has been reported among athletes participating in intense, long duration sports activities [e.g. marathon racing] [16].
It has been suggested that a decline in plasma glutamine concentrations may be one of the factors responsible for this increased rate of illness. Specifically, the activity of natural killer cells, a reduced number and proliferate ability of lymphocytes, and a reduced ratio of T-helper to T-suppressor cells may be the result of prolonged, exhaustive exercise [16].
In another study of glutamine's role on glucose and glycogen formation, the importance of glutamine was also emphasized. The human carbon based skeleton of glutamine can serve as a gluconeogenic precursor and may regulate gluconeogenesis, which is basically the production of glycogen, independently of the insulin/glucagon ratio[18]. Because glutamine may serve as a precursor to glucose independently of glucacon regulation, glutamine supplementation may also enhance glycogenolysis and thus increase muscle glycogen stores even when insulin levels are low [19,20].
So basically glutamine helps regulate glycogen in your body when levels are low and may even increase them, which would result in better performance and growth. In a study by Varnier et al. Am J Physiol in 1995, groups of six subjects each cycled for 90 minutes at a moderate to very high-intensity [70 to 140% VO2 max]. The exercise protocol was designed to deplete glycogen stores.
Following exercise, the subjects were infused with 30 mg/kg body weight of either glutamine, alanine+glycine, or a saline solution. Two hours following exercise, muscle glycogen concentration increased significantly more in the subjects receiving glutamine than the subjects in the other groups [19].
[/QUOTE]
There's scientific studies. Here's all the articles discussing its usefulness.
[url]http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/glutamine2.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=skimmer]Glutamine works.
Personally, I take ~2.5 grams pre-workout then 5 more post.
Since glutamine is the most abundant amino acid, it is also needed the most.[/QUOTE]
no it doesn't. Oral glutamine is massively consumed by the visceral tissues and oral supplementation fails to raise intracellular glutamine levels, also all the studies done on oral glutamine supplementation have shown no strength/endurance/muscular gain benefit.
[QUOTE=BackInTheJox]If that were the case, I could eat nothing and take BCAAs and Glutamine all day and beat Ronnie Coleman.[/QUOTE] ...this is a thread about pre-workout & yes pre-workout they are.
Okay, maybe I am wrong...but then if I am Bodybuilding.com needs to get rid of its 20 or so articles claiming how good glutamine is.
[QUOTE=skimmer]I'm talking about in our bodies. Our muscles are 60% glutamine. Its often broken down it catabolic states.
If all this is a lie then why do they give glutamine do AIDs victims?[/QUOTE]
because AIDS patients have massive GI tract atrophy and glutamine is the main fuel for the GI tract. The lean body mass they show aids patients adding during glutamine supplementation is from additional smooth muscle added to the gut... not skeletal muscle.
oh, and to compare the chronic catabolic condition of AIDS to a weightlifter is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=str8flexed]because AIDS patients have massive GI tract atrophy and glutamine is the main fuel for the GI tract. The lean body mass they show aids patients adding during glutamine supplementation is from additional smooth muscle added to the gut... not skeletal muscle.
oh, and to compare the chronic catabolic condition of AIDS to a weightlifter is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Okay, so maybe it was a bad example.
But what about all these articles on BB.com.
One other thing, if glutamine is worthless, does this disqualify other Amino's too? Whats the difference is their absorbition if it doesn't?
[QUOTE=skimmer]Okay, so maybe it was a bad example.
But what about all these articles on BB.com.
One other thing, if glutamine is worthless, does this disqualify other Amino's too? Whats the difference is their absorbition if it doesn't?[/QUOTE]
other aminos have very different absorption profiles. BCAAs for example are not extracted at all by the GI or liver and enter the bloodstream at almost quantitative numbers. As far as the articles go... many people rely on information that has been handed down to them by others without questioning it or thinking for themselves. I used to even recommend glutamine because I was regurgitating info others had passed down to me.
I always wondered why it did nothing when I took it. lol
[QUOTE=str8flexed]other aminos have very different absorption profiles. BCAAs for example are not extracted at all by the GI or liver and enter the bloodstream at almost quantitative numbers. As far as the articles go... many people rely on information that has been handed down to them by others without questioning it or thinking for themselves. I used to even recommend glutamine because I was regurgitating info others had passed down to me.
I always wondered why it did nothing when I took it. lol[/QUOTE]
Is something like Amino 2222's any good? Would you recommend those or a form of BCAA?
[QUOTE=skimmer]Is something like Amino 2222's any good? Would you recommend those or a form of BCAA?[/QUOTE]
amino pills are ok but not that much better than just a protein powder. I do believe free form BCAAs do have merit
"Is something like Amino 2222's any good? Would you recommend those or a form of BCAA?"
Try both and see which is better , depending on your goals.
i have a friend who swear by amino 2222 . i tried it and couldn't find any difference.
concerning other supplements , i think we are ripped off.
i lost faith in all supps ....except whey. (i don't consider it supplement).
what about glutamine peptides? i've been supplementing with 30g's of peptides a day during my cut. is this worthless?
[QUOTE=dillon1111]what about glutamine peptides? i've been supplementing with 30g's of peptides a day during my cut. is this worthless?[/QUOTE]
peptides are slightly better in that they are more stable in solution than regular glutamine so they have use in infant formulas and supplements for people who have GI disorders. However, i doubt it will increase absorption as the mucosal cells of the small intestine will merely hydrolyze the peptide.
-Layne
[QUOTE=str8flexed]peptides are slightly better in that they are more stable in solution than regular glutamine so they have use in infant formulas and supplements for people who have GI disorders. However, i doubt it will increase absorption as the mucosal cells of the small intestine will merely hydrolyze the peptide.
-Layne[/QUOTE]
good to know. thanks.
First of all, let's revisit the fact vs. fiction of this thread because there are several good and bad points, as well as some misconceptions. Firstly, there is significant scientific data that states that glutamine is beneficial is several regards for bodybuilders. There is also significant scientific data that quite clearly states that glutamine will not do what some people and previous studies have claimed that it will. let me clarify. oral glutamine supplementation has a few key drawbacks. first, the gi tract does in fact absorb a good amount of oral glutamine during digestion, which in turn leads to a less than adequate amount being absorbed into the muscle. this is why several key studies that found glutamine to be effective involved dosages in the 30g/day area, which is quite high and expensive. In doses this large, glutamine does have quite an "anabolic" effect. it is a volumizer in that it allows the cells to hold more water, much like creatine. it also increases the release of igf-1, and through these two mechanisms has shown the potential to increase muscle strength and endurance. However, in smaller quantities glutamine is unable to produce these results, which is why we see several studies of glutamine supplementation in the 5-15g/day area showing little or no effects. There is one area however, which pertains directly to this thread that glutamine will always be helpful with, and that is to reduce the potential of catabolism. As you know, glutamine is a non-essential amino which is created in the body from other amino's. it is the most abundant amino in the body. Glutamine is also one of the most quickly depleted aminos when the body is placed under extreme duress (such as intense physical exercise). Now, when you couple the fact that the body uses your other aminos to produce glutamine, as well as the fact that the body burns it very fast when you are lifting, you now have a state of amino depletion. the lack of amino acids in the body is what produces catabolism, and thus you would be best served to have a surplus of glutamine in the body, especially when working out. the best solution to this problem would be the ingestion of not only an excellent pre-workout meal, but also a glutamine or glutamine peptide supplement, as well as bcaa's before you begin training. by having an excess of glutamine, as well as the amino's necessary to produce more, the chances of catabolism are greatly reduced. the same goes for supplementation of glutamine and bcaa's directly after working out in order to ensure that catabolism does not occur. glutamine supplementation post workout is also recommended due to the increased absorbtion when taken on an empty stomach. one last note, the amount of glutamine present in the body has also been shown to greatly influence the rate of recovery of muscles. this makes sense since the body will use aminos to repair broken down muscle fibers and build new muscle. thus, lack of glutamine will take amino's away from the body in order to produce more glutamine which is necessary for the muscles.
[QUOTE=IronPimper]First of all, let's revisit the fact vs. fiction of this thread because there are several good and bad points, as well as some misconceptions. Firstly, there is significant scientific data that states that glutamine is beneficial is several regards for bodybuilders. There is also significant scientific data that quite clearly states that glutamine will not do what some people and previous studies have claimed that it will. let me clarify. oral glutamine supplementation has a few key drawbacks. first, the gi tract does in fact absorb a good amount of oral glutamine during digestion, which in turn leads to a less than adequate amount being absorbed into the muscle. this is why several key studies that found glutamine to be effective involved dosages in the 30g/day area, which is quite high and expensive. In doses this large, glutamine does have quite an "anabolic" effect. it is a volumizer in that it allows the cells to hold more water, much like creatine. it also increases the release of igf-1, and through these two mechanisms has shown the potential to increase muscle strength and endurance. However, in smaller quantities glutamine is unable to produce these results, which is why we see several studies of glutamine supplementation in the 5-15g/day area showing little or no effects. There is one area however, which pertains directly to this thread that glutamine will always be helpful with, and that is to reduce the potential of catabolism. As you know, glutamine is a non-essential amino which is created in the body from other amino's. it is the most abundant amino in the body. Glutamine is also one of the most quickly depleted aminos when the body is placed under extreme duress (such as intense physical exercise). Now, when you couple the fact that the body uses your other aminos to produce glutamine, as well as the fact that the body burns it very fast when you are lifting, you now have a state of amino depletion. the lack of amino acids in the body is what produces catabolism, and thus you would be best served to have a surplus of glutamine in the body, especially when working out. the best solution to this problem would be the ingestion of not only an excellent pre-workout meal, but also a glutamine or glutamine peptide supplement, as well as bcaa's before you begin training. by having an excess of glutamine, as well as the amino's necessary to produce more, the chances of catabolism are greatly reduced. the same goes for supplementation of glutamine and bcaa's directly after working out in order to ensure that catabolism does not occur. glutamine supplementation post workout is also recommended due to the increased absorbtion when taken on an empty stomach. one last note, the amount of glutamine present in the body has also been shown to greatly influence the rate of recovery of muscles. this makes sense since the body will use aminos to repair broken down muscle fibers and build new muscle. thus, lack of glutamine will take amino's away from the body in order to produce more glutamine which is necessary for the muscles.[/QUOTE]
God made paragraphs for a reason.
[QUOTE=IronPimper]First of all, let's revisit the fact vs. fiction of this thread because there are several good and bad points, as well as some misconceptions. Firstly, there is significant scientific data that states that glutamine is beneficial is several regards for bodybuilders. There is also significant scientific data that quite clearly states that glutamine will not do what some people and previous studies have claimed that it will. let me clarify. oral glutamine supplementation has a few key drawbacks. first, the gi tract does in fact absorb a good amount of oral glutamine during digestion, which in turn leads to a less than adequate amount being absorbed into the muscle. this is why several key studies that found glutamine to be effective involved dosages in the 30g/day area, which is quite high and expensive. In doses this large, glutamine does have quite an "anabolic" effect. it is a volumizer in that it allows the cells to hold more water, much like creatine. it also increases the release of igf-1, and through these two mechanisms has shown the potential to increase muscle strength and endurance. However, in smaller quantities glutamine is unable to produce these results, which is why we see several studies of glutamine supplementation in the 5-15g/day area showing little or no effects. There is one area however, which pertains directly to this thread that glutamine will always be helpful with, and that is to reduce the potential of catabolism. As you know, glutamine is a non-essential amino which is created in the body from other amino's. it is the most abundant amino in the body. Glutamine is also one of the most quickly depleted aminos when the body is placed under extreme duress (such as intense physical exercise). Now, when you couple the fact that the body uses your other aminos to produce glutamine, as well as the fact that the body burns it very fast when you are lifting, you now have a state of amino depletion. the lack of amino acids in the body is what produces catabolism, and thus you would be best served to have a surplus of glutamine in the body, especially when working out. the best solution to this problem would be the ingestion of not only an excellent pre-workout meal, but also a glutamine or glutamine peptide supplement, as well as bcaa's before you begin training. by having an excess of glutamine, as well as the amino's necessary to produce more, the chances of catabolism are greatly reduced. the same goes for supplementation of glutamine and bcaa's directly after working out in order to ensure that catabolism does not occur. glutamine supplementation post workout is also recommended due to the increased absorbtion when taken on an empty stomach. one last note, the amount of glutamine present in the body has also been shown to greatly influence the rate of recovery of muscles. this makes sense since the body will use aminos to repair broken down muscle fibers and build new muscle. thus, lack of glutamine will take amino's away from the body in order to produce more glutamine which is necessary for the muscles.[/QUOTE]
mind providing this scientific evidence?
as far as your statements... you have a piece of the puzzle as far as in workout amino acid metabolism but the whole thing isn't there...
you know the glutamine you lose from the muscle during a workout that everyone freaks out about? all these companies talk about? That's not even stored glutamine! It's made as you workout by taking the amonia group from BCAAs and through a series of transfers transfering the amine group to another donar to form glutamine. All glutamine is doing is acting as an ammonia carrier since free ammonia is toxic. All that glutamine you "lose" during training wouldn't have ever even existed if it wasn't for the fact you were training. It's called the glucose/alanine cycle and its a way by which your muscles send glutamine to the visceral tissue during exercise and the visceral tissues in return send BCAAs back to the skeletal muscle! Losing glutamine from the muscle tissue doesn't accelerate muscle protein breakdown... if anything it helps prevent it. Yet the supplement companies make this huge leap of faith saying that "oh when you workout you increase muscle breakdown... and look you lose glutamine from the muscle... that means the glutamine loss causes the muscle breakdown!" BULL****! That's like saying... oh Leptin decreases as bodyfat decreases and it increases as bodyfat increases, so leptin must make you fat. Are these people ****ing brain dead? I think yes
IF anything one should supplement with BCAAs as those control protein synthesis and they are what is really depleted by exercise.
just thought i'd drop that tidbit on you.
Flexed, thanks for the good posts. I've learned a lot on this thread. Is there any other completly bogus supplement that is largely accepted to be wonderful?
..Dr. Norton always throwing around great info.