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In terms of effectiveness (focus, energy, alertness), for those of you who have tried both in BULK, what did you think? Is the NAT worth the extra money (100 g's of Tyr costs $3.59 while the cheapest I can find NAT for is $11.50 for 100 g's), or should I just go with tyrosine?
Thanks ahead of time.
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715229401]In terms of effectiveness (focus, energy, alertness), for those of you who have tried both in BULK, what did you think? Is the NAT worth the extra money (100 g's of Tyr costs $3.59 while the cheapest I can find NAT for is $11.50 for 100 g's), or should I just go with tyrosine?
Thanks ahead of time.[/QUOTE]
It is not worth the extra cash imo.
I will always opt for Tyr.
Are you combining it with other nootropics/stims?
Making your own pre workout?
[QUOTE=Shermanatorx;715230621]It is not worth the extra cash imo.
I will always opt for Tyr.
Are you combining it with other nootropics/stims?[/QUOTE]
Yes - more than likely caffeine, sulbutiamine, and a low dose 1,3.
I haven't tried either Tyr/NAT by themselves so I figured I'd some opinions from those who have.
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715231261]Yes - more than likely caffeine, sulbutiamine, and a low dose 1,3.
I haven't tried either Tyr/NAT by themselves so I figured I'd some opinions from those who have.[/QUOTE]
I have combined it with caffeine(this is where it shines), ALCAR, DMAE and Choline bitartrate(citrate is superior).
I highly recommend it.
[QUOTE=Shermanatorx;715230621]It is not worth the extra cash imo.
I will always opt for Tyr.
Are you combining it with other nootropics/stims?
Making your own pre workout?[/QUOTE]
Any reason in particular why you would opt for regular Tyr over NAT?
[QUOTE=Shermanatorx;715232391]I have combined it with caffeine(this is where it shines), ALCAR, DMAE and Choline bitartrate(citrate is superior).
I highly recommend it.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the input!
What dose of Tyr did you find most effective, just out of curiosity? I might have to cap this blend because the sulbutiamine is supposed to taste like complete ass. Maybe I'll see if I can somehow mask the taste with some sort of flavoring.
[QUOTE=little rambo;715233981]Any reason in particular why you would opt for regular Tyr over NAT?[/QUOTE]
I didn't think any benefit over Tyr was worth 4x the cost. For others, the benefit may be more noticeable(just preference). I still don't think it will be enough to justify the cost.
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715234601]Thanks for the input!
What dose of Tyr did you find most effective, just out of curiosity? I might have to cap this blend because the sulbutiamine is supposed to taste like complete ass. Maybe I'll see if I can somehow mask the taste with some sort of flavoring.[/QUOTE]
1-2g will suffice, I did fine with 1g.
If you get ALCAR, it taste's like ass too. Has a vinegar smell.
Strong Gatorade powder is your friend.
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715234601]Thanks for the input!
What dose of Tyr did you find most effective, just out of curiosity? I might have to cap this blend because the sulbutiamine is supposed to taste like complete ass. Maybe I'll see if I can somehow mask the taste with some sort of flavoring.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure there is much reliable info on how much more effective NAT is, but the feedback is usually good. Wish I could see some more studies either way. Most say you can use a lower dose like 500mg-1g or half what many use for regular tyrosine. I think 2g of regular tyro is good myself and best on a near empty stomach. Ultima has both which I think is pretty cool and a nice generous effective dosing as well. You also get superior choline sources and much more, but I won't get into praising it too much as I am a rep. I have yet to try SPMax flavors with Ultima, but I am guessing you could find one flavor that blends well with Ultima. Might be an interesting mix with nothing significantly overlapping.
Sulbutiamine does taste nasty for sure. Usually only find it in capped products, but it does appear to be a great ingredient.
SAN Launch I think it is called is a cool pre-workout which has NAT, creatine nitrate, sulbutiamine, beta-alanine, 1,3, citrulline malate and caffeine. Sounds like something you'd be interested in from you repsonses here. It is a tablet and if you have the tabs in your mouth even for a second there is a horrible taste noticeable.
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715234601]Thanks for the input!
What dose of Tyr did you find most effective, just out of curiosity? I might have to cap this blend because the sulbutiamine is supposed to taste like complete ass. Maybe I'll see if I can somehow mask the taste with some sort of flavoring.[/QUOTE]
Artificial sweetners brotha, or possibly a little stevia in addition to some Gatorade. Might have to test this out down in Orlando when we tear it up.
[QUOTE=Shermanatorx;715237241]I didn't think any benefit over Tyr was worth 4x the cost. For others, the benefit may be more noticeable(just preference). I still don't think it will be enough to justify the cost.
1-2g will suffice, I did fine with 1g.
If you get ALCAR, it taste's like ass too. Has a vinegar smell.
Strong Gatorade powder is your friend.[/QUOTE]
I actually don't mind ALCAR and find it can mask some nasty tasting ingredients... it does smell like vinegar though.
[QUOTE=Peter LeDrew;715241791]I actually don't mind ALCAR and find it can mask some nasty tasting ingredients... it does smell like vinegar though.[/QUOTE]
Ya know, you're right. I never really taste it, but I can smell it a mile away.
I love ALCAR though, I gotta give PLCAR a try too(different spectrum of benefits).
ALCAR masks ingredients well, its smell however... is very sharp.
x2 on the tyrosine at 1-2g. NAT isn't worth the price increase IMO. You could use the difference in cost to get another stimulant / nootropic.
[QUOTE=Shermanatorx;715247551]Ya know, you're right. I never really taste it, but I can smell it a mile away.
I love ALCAR though, I gotta give PLCAR a try too(different spectrum of benefits).[/QUOTE]
Carnitines are great. I have all the great ones. ALCAR, PLCAR, LCLT, GPLC and even the acetyl l-carnitine arginate that has been shown to stimulate neurite outgrowth.
ALCAR prices have really come down and while the arginine form is very expensive these would be the ideal carnitine nootropics stacked together. I've done them alongside Ultima and you really hit many cognitive nootropic goals and it gets even better when AOR's Ortho Mind is added in at around 2-3 caps.
Neurochem Res. 1995 Jan;20(1):1-9.
Neurite outgrowth in PC12 cells stimulated by acetyl-L-carnitine arginine amide.
Taglialatela G, Navarra D, Olivi A, Ramacci MT, Werrbach-Perez K, Perez-Polo JR, Angelucci L.
SourceInstitute for Research on Senescence Sigma-Tau, Pomezia, Italy.
Abstract
Senescence of the central nervous system is characterized by a progressive loss of neurons that can result in physiological and behavioral impairments. Reduction in the levels of central neurotrophic factors or of neurotrophin receptors may be one of the causes of the onset of these degenerative events. Thus, a proper therapeutic approach would be to increase support to degenerating neurons with trophic factors or to stimulate endogenous neurotrophic activity. Here we report that acetyl-L-carnitine arginine amide (ST-857) is able to stimulate neurite outgrowth in rat pheochromocytoma PC12 cells in a manner similar to that elicited by nerve growth factor (NGF). Neurite induction by ST-857 requires de novo mRNA synthesis and is independent of the action of several common trophic factors. The integrity of the molecular structure of ST-857 is essential for its activity, as the single moieties of the molecule have no effect on PC12 cells, whether they are tested separately or together. Also, minor chemical modifications of ST-857, such as the presence of the arginine moiety at a position other than the amino one, completely abolish its neuritogenic effect. Lastly, the presence of ST-857 in the culture medium competes with the high affinity NGF binding in a dose dependent fashion. These results, although preliminary, are suggestive of a possible role for ST-857 in the development of therapeutic strategies to counteract degenerative diseases of the CNS.
[QUOTE=Peter LeDrew;715240601]I am not sure there is much reliable info on how much more effective NAT is, but the feedback is usually good. Wish I could see some more studies either way. Most say you can use a lower dose like 500mg-1g or half what many use for regular tyrosine. I think 2g of regular tyro is good myself and best on a near empty stomach. Ultima has both which I think is pretty cool and a nice generous effective dosing as well. You also get superior choline sources and much more, but I won't get into praising it too much as I am a rep. I have yet to try SPMax flavors with Ultima, but I am guessing you could find one flavor that blends well with Ultima. Might be an interesting mix with nothing significantly overlapping.
Sulbutiamine does taste nasty for sure. Usually only find it in capped products, but it does appear to be a great ingredient.
SAN Launch I think it is called is a cool pre-workout which has NAT, creatine nitrate, sulbutiamine, beta-alanine, 1,3, citrulline malate and caffeine. Sounds like something you'd be interested in from you repsonses here. It is a tablet and if you have the tabs in your mouth even for a second there is a horrible taste noticeable.[/QUOTE]
SAN Launch does look like a pretty great product. I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet.
Thanks for the input!
[QUOTE=little rambo;715241561]Artificial sweetners brotha, or possibly a little stevia in addition to some Gatorade. Might have to test this out down in Orlando when we tear it up.[/QUOTE]
Fa sho.
[QUOTE=JJ22;715252181]ALCAR masks ingredients well, its smell however... is very sharp.
x2 on the tyrosine at 1-2g. NAT isn't worth the price increase IMO. You could use the difference in cost to get another stimulant / nootropic.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same thing in regards to your second statement. Possibly some ALCAR :p.
Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack?
[QUOTE=Peter LeDrew;715259011]Carnitines are great. I have all the great ones. ALCAR, PLCAR, LCLT, GPLC and even the acetyl l-carnitine arginate that has been shown to stimulate neurite outgrowth.
ALCAR prices have really come down and while the arginine form is very expensive these would be the ideal carnitine nootropics stacked together. I've done them alongside Ultima and you really hit many cognitive nootropic goals and it gets even better when AOR's Ortho Mind is added in at around 2-3 caps.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting abstract. I've never heard of the arginine form before.
Repost from above:
[b]Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack? Ideally something that could be taken in pre-workout or in the morning when I'm really dragging ass.[/b]
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715276211]SAN Launch does look like a pretty great product. I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet.
Thanks for the input!
Fa sho.
I was thinking the same thing in regards to your second statement. Possibly some ALCAR :p.
Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack?
Interesting abstract. I've never heard of the arginine form before.
Repost from above:
[b]Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack? Ideally something that could be taken in pre-workout or in the morning when I'm really dragging ass.[/b][/QUOTE]
Refer to post #4.
Great for pre workout.
[QUOTE=ncangey0513;715276211]SAN Launch does look like a pretty great product. I haven't gotten around to trying it out yet.
Thanks for the input!
Fa sho.
I was thinking the same thing in regards to your second statement. Possibly some ALCAR :p.
Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack?
Interesting abstract. I've never heard of the arginine form before.
Repost from above:
[b]Anything you guys would recommend that would be a nice addition to a sulbutiamine/caffeine/1,3-d (low dosed)/tyr stack? Ideally something that could be taken in pre-workout or in the morning when I'm really dragging ass.[/b][/QUOTE]
SAN also has a powder version which is different. Along with the other ingredients the tabs version also has Nicotinoyl-GABA aka Picamilon and another B-vitamin analog Fursultiamine. The dosing appears to be legit as well even though it is a prop. blend. It's a pretty underrated and interesting formula.
In terms of choline source I'd def. go with Alpha-GPC or CDP-Choline. You'll get little to no benefit from regular choline if you eat enough eggs and have a decent diet. These advanced choline sources have been clinically shown to be superior and effective in terms of crossing the blood-brain barrier, enhancing focus and cognitive functions. I like A-GPC if your goals are more in the way of pre-workout mind-muscle connection and quicker benefits, more immediate/noticeable benefits... while I like CDP-Choline best used longer term for overall brain functioning, focus and memory. I always felt noticeable strength improvements when using Ultima and I believe it is partly due to the A-GPC content. If you're using both you can lower each dose, but say if you're using just CDP-Choline then 250mg is a good dose just recently shown to be as beneficial as a higher dose for focus. I would prefer Cognizin CDP-Choline and Alpha-Size A-GPC for quality and reliability.
ALCAR would be a wise pickup considering the price you can get it for now. Price to benefits it is a great deal. B12 in methylcobalamin form is beneficial as are some other B-vitamins in coenzyme form. AOR's Advanced B Complex is the best B-vitamin I have ever come across and their Ortho Core also contains most of the same forms of B's.
SAMe also works well in my experience for mood and energy levels. It goes well alongside B's as mentioned above. It can be expensive and quality is a huge issue with it so make sure you know what you're getting.
AOR's Ortho Mind is a cool all-in-one nootropic formula that I like. I am pretty sure they use Cognizin CDP-Choline as well. Even at 2-3 caps/day you really would not need more than that and will notice benefits. It would last a nice while dosed like that. To be honest, my favorite nootropic of all is Cognizin CDP-Choline. From the benefits I have noticed to everything I have read, to me it does more than any one ingredient for enhancing cognitive functioning. I love the stuff!
Phosphatidylserine is an interesting ingredient and you get a nice (not cheap) 75mg dose of it in Ultima.
Of course we all need a quality EPA/DHA source like in fish oil. The is more of a base supplement, but without the base core nutritional ingredients then the other stuff will not work well.
Hope I helped you and didn't add too much info. So for an easy response I would say if you could only add or afford one thing to add in I would say Cognizin CDP-Choline. ALCAR can be found for cheap these days as well and they would really add true benefits to overall cognitive functioning whether pre-workout or early morning... which is how I would dose them... both can be slightly stimulating and dopamine levels should be increased.
[QUOTE=Peter LeDrew;715259011]Carnitines are great. I have all the great ones. ALCAR, PLCAR, LCLT, GPLC and even the acetyl l-carnitine arginate that has been shown to stimulate neurite outgrowth.
ALCAR prices have really come down and while the arginine form is very expensive these would be the ideal carnitine nootropics stacked together. I've done them alongside Ultima and you really hit many cognitive nootropic goals and it gets even better when AOR's Ortho Mind is added in at around 2-3 caps.
Neurochem Res. 1995 Jan;20(1):1-9.
Neurite outgrowth in PC12 cells stimulated by acetyl-L-carnitine arginine amide.
Taglialatela G, Navarra D, Olivi A, Ramacci MT, Werrbach-Perez K, Perez-Polo JR, Angelucci L.
SourceInstitute for Research on Senescence Sigma-Tau, Pomezia, Italy.
Abstract
Senescence of the central nervous system is characterized by a progressive loss of neurons that can result in physiological and behavioral impairments. Reduction in the levels of central neurotrophic factors or of neurotrophin receptors may be one of the causes of the onset of these degenerative events. Thus, a proper therapeutic approach would be to increase support to degenerating neurons with trophic factors or to stimulate endogenous neurotrophic activity. Here we report that acetyl-L-carnitine arginine amide (ST-857) is able to stimulate neurite outgrowth in rat pheochromocytoma PC12 cells in a manner similar to that elicited by nerve growth factor (NGF). Neurite induction by ST-857 requires de novo mRNA synthesis and is independent of the action of several common trophic factors. The integrity of the molecular structure of ST-857 is essential for its activity, as the single moieties of the molecule have no effect on PC12 cells, whether they are tested separately or together. Also, minor chemical modifications of ST-857, such as the presence of the arginine moiety at a position other than the amino one, completely abolish its neuritogenic effect. Lastly, the presence of ST-857 in the culture medium competes with the high affinity NGF binding in a dose dependent fashion. These results, although preliminary, are suggestive of a possible role for ST-857 in the development of therapeutic strategies to counteract degenerative diseases of the CNS.[/QUOTE]
Do you think AminoCarnitine is a good substitute for ALCAR? I am hesitant to switch because most of the studies on this form is funded by Sigma-Tau.
[QUOTE=Peter LeDrew;715329021]SAN also has a powder version which is different. Along with the other ingredients the tabs version also has Nicotinoyl-GABA aka Picamilon and another B-vitamin analog Fursultiamine. The dosing appears to be legit as well even though it is a prop. blend. It's a pretty underrated and interesting formula.
In terms of choline source I'd def. go with Alpha-GPC or CDP-Choline. You'll get little to no benefit from regular choline if you eat enough eggs and have a decent diet. These advanced choline sources have been clinically shown to be superior and effective in terms of crossing the blood-brain barrier, enhancing focus and cognitive functions. I like A-GPC if your goals are more in the way of pre-workout mind-muscle connection and quicker benefits, more immediate/noticeable benefits... while I like CDP-Choline best used longer term for overall brain functioning, focus and memory. I always felt noticeable strength improvements when using Ultima and I believe it is partly due to the A-GPC content. If you're using both you can lower each dose, but say if you're using just CDP-Choline then 250mg is a good dose just recently shown to be as beneficial as a higher dose for focus. I would prefer Cognizin CDP-Choline and Alpha-Size A-GPC for quality and reliability.
ALCAR would be a wise pickup considering the price you can get it for now. Price to benefits it is a great deal. B12 in methylcobalamin form is beneficial as are some other B-vitamins in coenzyme form. AOR's Advanced B Complex is the best B-vitamin I have ever come across and their Ortho Core also contains most of the same forms of B's.
SAMe also works well in my experience for mood and energy levels. It goes well alongside B's as mentioned above. It can be expensive and quality is a huge issue with it so make sure you know what you're getting.
AOR's Ortho Mind is a cool all-in-one nootropic formula that I like. I am pretty sure they use Cognizin CDP-Choline as well. Even at 2-3 caps/day you really would not need more than that and will notice benefits. It would last a nice while dosed like that. To be honest, my favorite nootropic of all is Cognizin CDP-Choline. From the benefits I have noticed to everything I have read, to me it does more than any one ingredient for enhancing cognitive functioning. I love the stuff!
Phosphatidylserine is an interesting ingredient and you get a nice (not cheap) 75mg dose of it in Ultima.
Of course we all need a quality EPA/DHA source like in fish oil. The is more of a base supplement, but without the base core nutritional ingredients then the other stuff will not work well.
Hope I helped you and didn't add too much info. So for an easy response I would say if you could only add or afford one thing to add in I would say Cognizin CDP-Choline. ALCAR can be found for cheap these days as well and they would really add true benefits to overall cognitive functioning whether pre-workout or early morning... which is how I would dose them... both can be slightly stimulating and dopamine levels should be increased.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the great response, Peter!
One more bump for any responses.
another great product with similar results is called P-Boost.
google their site.