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thanks for all the scientific facts and insight, i do learn everyday from our great members...i think that i may stay on keto longer, this is a great diet plan and the science that you bring is very informative and 90% makes sense, i have to go back and read this thread few times to really get the facts. today i went up in weight 183 pnds, but my waistline/abs are getting smaller. I think that I had to adjust my fats to cals ratio. So far so good and repps to all that helped me so far.
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[QUOTE=jayemadd;650546403]I read this whole thread and I imagined every single one of you guys talking like either The Comic Book Guy or Professor Frink from the Simpsons...[/QUOTE]
me too..lol, but i do learn from all the different angles and approach to this diet, it's fun
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Here are a few posts that mention it but there are more. Just wondering if this is true and I thought the whole point of ketosis was to switch fuel sources to fat then why the need to enter ketosis if you can do it without the process of ketosis
[QUOTE=PickItUp;62839331]I think you can be fat adapted and not in ketosis.
If fat is making up the vast majority of your caloric intake, then your body will burn that fat for fuel.
You will still have energy...but if you end up eating too many carbs, you may never reach ketosis. I am pretty sure you can be fat adapted and NOT in ketosis. Fat can be used for energy without being in ketosis. Ketosis simply means that fats are being converted into ketones for fuel. Free floating fatty acids can aslo be used for fuel by certain cells...and there is no need to convert to ketones.
So you can burn fat while not in ketosis...people do it everyday...and with 55% of your calories for fat, you will use your dietary fat for fuel.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=xtrell;60131831]My take....One isn't really a requirement for the other. You can break ketosis and still use fat for energy during workouts or repleneshing glycogen for a quick day or so, assuming you've been in ketosis long enough (thus your body has adapted to fat). This is CKD.
On the other end, some believe you can be fat adapted after a few weeks without ever even entering ketosis once (~30g carbs per day), and still benefit from a carbup in the same way. This is how the Anabolic Diet works.
I like to look at it in simpler terms: you'll burn what you consume most of. Thinking of it that way, if for two weeks I ate minimal carbs (whether or not it was 0g or 30g) and 60% fat, then my body should be fat adapted.
That IS what happens on the carbup, but best be careful and monitor the carbup to see how long your body can handle carb intake while being fat adapted without spilling over. Some people may be taking a risk by carbing up a full day and a half (perhaps the second day when they wake up their body has already adjusted to carbs over night), others might absolutely need the most amount of time.
I'm pretty sure that if you're fully depleted and you carb-up the exact amount of time you need to, then close to 0% of the carbs you consume will be used for energy during that time; every gram will go to the muscle glycogen stores while fat is still being used for daily energy.
Thus, the whole concept of the CKD style diet.[/QUOTE]
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[QUOTE=xdeerizx;650560423]Here are a few posts that mention it but there are more. Just wondering if this is true and I thought the whole point of ketosis was to switch fuel sources to fat then why the need to enter ketosis if you can do it without the process of ketosis[/QUOTE]
Ketosis is a side effect not a primary determinant of the diet's success.
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650561903]Ketosis is a side effect not a primary determinant of the diet's success.[/QUOTE]
you've got to be kidding me
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650567823]you've got to be kidding me[/QUOTE]
Nope. Not kidding at all.
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650570063]Nope. Not kidding at all.[/QUOTE]
how do you figure?
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650561903]Ketosis is a side effect not a primary determinant of the diet's success.[/QUOTE]
I read this too, it's suppose to be a metobolism thing, not a indicator of your outcome/success.
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650571603]how do you figure?[/QUOTE]
The primary determinant is a caloric deficit. Unless you suffer from a metabolic condition, mixed macro diets have approximately the same level of efficacy as a low carb diet. That's not to say that there are no advantages for using a keto diet, because there are tons; hormones, blood profile, adherence, food choices, lessened hunger, etc. Long term fatloss/weightloss just isn't one of them, or at least hasn't been scientifically shown to be one.
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650579463]The primary determinant is a caloric deficit. Unless you suffer from a metabolic condition, mixed macro diets have approximately the same level of efficacy as a low carb diet. That's not to say that there are no advantages for using a keto diet, because there are tons; hormones, blood profile, adherence, food choices, lessened hunger, etc. Long term fatloss/weightloss just isn't one of them, or at least hasn't been scientifically shown to be one.[/QUOTE]
i don't feel like debating but i don't want people to read this and believe it so i'll just leave this here:
[quote=Effect of body...]Young et al. compared the effects of three isoenergetic (7.5 MJ/day), isoprotein (115g/day) diets containing varying carbohydrate contents (30, 60, and 104 g/day) on weight loss and body composition in obese men. After 9 weeks, weight loss was 16.2, 12.8, and 11.9 kg and fat accounted for 95%, 84%, and 75% of the weight lost, respectively.[/quote]
[list][url=http://www.ajcn.org/content/24/3/290.abstract]Effect of body composition and other parameters in obese young men of carbohydrate level of reduction diet[/url][/list]
[QUOTE=PickItUp;650560423]I think you can be fat adapted and not in ketosis.
If fat is making up the vast majority of your caloric intake, then your body will burn that fat for fuel.
You will still have energy...but if you end up eating too many carbs, you may never reach ketosis. I am pretty sure you can be fat adapted and NOT in ketosis. Fat can be used for energy without being in ketosis. Ketosis simply means that fats are being converted into ketones for fuel. Free floating fatty acids can aslo be used for fuel by certain cells...and there is no need to convert to ketones.
So you can burn fat while not in ketosis...people do it everyday...and with 55% of your calories for fat, you will use your dietary fat for fuel.[/QUOTE]
[quote=xtrell]My take....One isn't really a requirement for the other. You can break ketosis and still use fat for energy during workouts or repleneshing glycogen for a quick day or so, assuming you've been in ketosis long enough (thus your body has adapted to fat). This is CKD.
On the other end, some believe you can be fat adapted after a few weeks without ever even entering ketosis once (~30g carbs per day), and still benefit from a carbup in the same way. This is how the Anabolic Diet works.
I like to look at it in simpler terms: you'll burn what you consume most of. Thinking of it that way, if for two weeks I ate minimal carbs (whether or not it was 0g or 30g) and 60% fat, then my body should be fat adapted.
That IS what happens on the carbup, but best be careful and monitor the carbup to see how long your body can handle carb intake while being fat adapted without spilling over. Some people may be taking a risk by carbing up a full day and a half (perhaps the second day when they wake up their body has already adjusted to carbs over night), others might absolutely need the most amount of time.
I'm pretty sure that if you're fully depleted and you carb-up the exact amount of time you need to, then close to 0% of the carbs you consume will be used for energy during that time; every gram will go to the muscle glycogen stores while fat is still being used for daily energy.
Thus, the whole concept of the CKD style diet.[/quote]
oh lord...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Ml9PH.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650589783]i don't feel like debating but i don't want people to read this and believe it so i'll just leave this here:[list][url=http://www.ajcn.org/content/24/3/290.abstract]Effect of body composition and other parameters in obese young men of carbohydrate level of reduction diet[/url][/list][/QUOTE]
I love your use of scientific evidence.
However, I counter with: [url=http://www.ajcn.org/content/83/5/1055.full.pdf+html]Ketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets have no Metabolic Advantage over Nonketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets – Research Review[/url]
And Lyle Mcdonald's discussion of the above: [url=http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html]here[/url]
There is more evidence fighting for both sides out there, but I am too lazy to go get it all. Do note, though, that I am a big proponent for a low carb diet. Attributing some magic metabolic advantage to it is just a disservice to dieters.
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650589783]i don't feel like debating but i don't want people to read this and believe it so i'll just leave this here:
[list][url=http://www.ajcn.org/content/24/3/290.abstract]Effect of body composition and other parameters in obese young men of carbohydrate level of reduction diet[/url][/list]
oh lord...
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Ml9PH.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
don't eject yet, you just posted a good link, it seems that theres great benefits in the long term, but isnt it too early to tell? this diet has just come into existence recently. theres no real long term data yet.
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650597103]I love your use of scientific evidence.
However, I counter with: [url=http://www.ajcn.org/content/83/5/1055.full.pdf+html]Ketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets have no Metabolic Advantage over Nonketogenic Low-Carbohydrate Diets – Research Review[/url]
And Lyle Mcdonald's discussion of the above: [url=http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/ketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-have-no-metabolic-advantage-over-nonketogenic-low-carbohydrate-diets-research-review.html]here[/url]
There is more evidence fighting for both sides out there, but I am too lazy to go get it all. Do note, though, that I am a big proponent for a low carb diet. Attributing some magic metabolic advantage to it is just a disservice to dieters.[/QUOTE]
i see. i skimmed thru the study and it looks good.
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650617833]i see. i skimmed thru the study and it looks good.[/QUOTE]Crisis averted. Let's hug now.
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[QUOTE=MASSter;650619953]Crisis averted. Let's hug now.[/QUOTE]
finally some drama and entertainment in the keto section :D
i'm still of the opinion that ketosis is better for fat-loss, but i see there is some evidence to the contrary as well. i guess people will have to review the info and decide for themselves.
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650628433]finally some drama and entertainment in the keto section :D
i'm still of the opinion that ketosis is better for fat-loss, but i see there is some evidence to the contrary as well. i guess people will have to review the themselves and decide for themselves.[/QUOTE]Even if there is a difference I think it is miniscule and not enough to proclaim keto is better than cals in cals out. I just choose keto for cutting because of the hunger reduction. And who doesn't like bacon and eggs?
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[QUOTE=MASSter;650630233]Even if there is a difference I think it is miniscule and not enough to proclaim keto is better than cals in cals out.[/QUOTE]
this isn't about keto vs a caloric deficit. of course you need a caloric deficit. we're arguing ketosis vs non-ketosis.
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650631203]this isn't about keto vs a caloric deficit. of course you need a caloric deficit. we're arguing against ketosis vs non-ketosis.[/QUOTE]Well keto means being in ketosis so we are arguing the same things(cutting fat which includes caloric deficit. My point being that caloric deficit is the determining factor, not ketosis or lack of.
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If you are a lifelong bodybuilder/athlete/etc. then you won't see as great of a benefit from Keto vs a mixed macro cal deficit diet as a person who is obese or has struggled with weight in America their whole life (like 60% or so of Americans). More recent studies have shown that as many as 2 out of 3 people have some level of intolerance to carbohydrates and this is a main proponent of the weight gain/obesity epidemic going on. This is where the metabolic advantage of Keto that Atavis touched on comes in.
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my opine, it seems that theres great benefits in the long term, but isnt it too early to tell? This diet has just come into existence recently, theres no real long term data yet.
__________________
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650628433]finally some drama and entertainment in the keto section :D
i'm still of the opinion that ketosis is better for fat-loss, but i see there is some evidence to the contrary as well. i guess people will have to review the info and decide for themselves.[/QUOTE]
great debate and info without name calling, that's how it's done son.
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[QUOTE=Grapplingmuscle;650651483]If you are a lifelong bodybuilder/athlete/etc. then you won't see as great of a benefit from Keto vs a mixed macro cal deficit diet as a person who is obese or has struggled with weight in America their whole life (like 60% or so of Americans). More recent studies have shown that as many as 2 out of 3 people have some level of intolerance to carbohydrates and this is a main proponent of the weight gain/obesity epidemic going on. This is where the metabolic advantage of Keto that Atavis touched on comes in.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and sadly the number of people afflicted with conditions like carb intolerance and insulin resistance which can be remedied by a low carb diet and fatloss is growing at an alarmingly high rate. For people with these conditions keto dieting can be a godsend.
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650697833]Yes, and sadly the number of people afflicted with conditions like carb intolerance and insulin resistance which can be remedied by a low carb diet and fatloss is growing at an alarmingly high rate. For people with these conditions keto dieting can be a godsend.[/QUOTE]
im one, i was on diabetic on pills and high blood pressure meds, now the doctors said i'm cured, dont need the meds anylonger, thanx to keto.
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if you dont go into ketosis, however still hold a minimal carbohydrate intake and a 500cal deficit.. does the depletion workout and subsequent carbup / weekend load have the same effect?
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[QUOTE=angelmotorsport;650712923]if you dont go into ketosis, however still hold a minimal carbohydrate intake and a 500cal deficit.. does the depletion workout and subsequent carbup / weekend load have the same effect?[/QUOTE]
How minimal?
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[QUOTE=alex2363;650690063]great debate and info without name calling, that's how it's done son.[/QUOTE]
aw come on now, i've never called anyone names. that little scrap i had with alexl before, well.. he started it :p
[QUOTE=alex2363;650703633]im one, i was on diabetic on pills and high blood pressure meds, now the doctors said i'm cured, dont need the meds anylonger, thanx to keto.[/QUOTE]
way to go man. i also had hypertension that has since been cured.
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[QUOTE=shadowwalker021;650734403]aw come on now, i've never called anyone names. that little scrap i had with alexl before, well.. he started it :p[/QUOTE]
lol...it's all for the virtue of truth!
My 2 cents about keto vs other diets is that it could just be in the brain, but for some, like myself, gain fat much more easily when carbs are in the diet than when they aren't. It might not always be tremendously more easily, but it is significant and significant enough to warrant cutting them out to potentially lose fat more effectively.
There's the health benefits, etc. that have already been noted. I cut once doing a regular diet but that was so long ago and was when I was just starting out with lifting. I don't really feel like ever cutting on higher carb again, so I doubt I'll get any more personal experience with that method of cutting for at least a while.
All in all, low-carb > high carb for health and anabolic reasons, all fast loss effectiveness aside.
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[QUOTE=zstanton;650307263]Being in the state of Ketosis has literally ZERO to do with a high percentage of dietary fat intake, it has to do with the lack of available Carbs to be broken down into glucose for energy!!!!!!!!!!! The state of ketosis will occur from body fat. You are either in ketosis or you are not, you can fricken enter ketosis after a day of fasting, especially if your body is accustomed to it, as long as you are not taking in TOO much protein for your body then you will be in ketosis. also insulin really isnt that bad, especially if there is no glucose or fructose to shuttle into your body.
btw its catabolistic not cannibalistic
"Cannibalism (from Caníbales, the Spanish name for the Carib people,[1] a West Indies tribe formerly well known for their practice of cannibalism),[2] is the act or practice of humans eating the flesh of other human beings. It is also called anthropo****y. A person who practises cannibalism is called a cannibal.
While the expression "cannibalism" has origins in the act of humans eating other humans, it has extended into zoology to mean the act of any animal consuming members of its own type or kind, including the consumption of mates."[/QUOTE]
Catabolitic, thx.
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[QUOTE=Atavis;650723133]How minimal?[/QUOTE]
same as keto, under 30 grams
Edit: if you were knowingly taking something that kept you out of keto however did not affect your calories.
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[QUOTE=angelmotorsport;650798993]same as keto, under 30 grams
Edit: if you were knowingly taking something that kept you out of keto however did not affect your calories.[/QUOTE]
You would deplete muscle/liver glycogen and carb up just fine.
Although, that would suggest impaired fat usage and you would likely see more lbm lost to gluconeogenesis. That is just a swag though.