Hitting middle upper back

I have been training on and off for 3 years, but it was pretty crap last year to be honest. The last 3 months of last year I didn't train at all due to moving house and work commitments.

I am a skinny bugger, but New year I looked terrible. Skinny with a gut is not a good look :D

So, I have been cutting slowly since new year, and can finally train properly now I have my garage gym. Despite cutting, I have been slowly gaining strength so am pretty happy with how it's going so far. Today I took a few pictures to see how I compared to Jan.

Overall I'm pretty happy. Yup, I'm a lanky skinny git (6'4"), but still want to shed a bit more fat from my midsection before I start bulking. However, from looking at the piccys it seems my back needs a lot of work at the top. You can see my spine for god's sake!

What can I do to hit that area? The area between my shoulder blades looks totally devoid of muscle.

Before you ask, my back work consists of: (All 3x6-9)
Tue: Close grip weighted chinups, Bent over BB row
Fri: Deadlifts, Wide grip weighted pullups, Seated cable row (hammer grip to stomach). Shrugs.

Sometimes I drop the shrugs if I'm feeling whacked. Do you think that's the problem?

Thanks for any suggestions

at your height, you don't need to cut. You need to start specializing in the deadlift, rack pull and power shrug! :D

As you gain mass, the tummy will start to disappear, assuming you keep your diet clean

^^^^ I agree. Concentrate on more power moves [I would suggest cleans or clean & press in addition to the ones kethnaab listed]. I've never done shrugs, yet my traps [upper middle back muscles] are pretty good sized. I was, however, a coed cheerleader for 6 years in college/grad school and spent two hours a day stunting with the girls, which basically amounted to placing our hands on their hips, doing a power clean [they would bend at the knees] and then letting go and throwing them so their feet landed in our hands [they would help us out by jumping]. From there, we'd press them overhead [I rarely worked shoulders during this time either because they got plenty of work at practice]. I think leaving out the shrugs will hurt you if you don't incorporate some more power moves.

And yeah, don't worry about cutting more, because once you start bulking, you will gain a little bit of fat [I don't think the tummy will disappear unless you eat extremely clean], which would end up covering whatever abs you ended up revealing in the first place. I'd bulk first, get to where you wanna be, and then worry about cutting again.

shrugs, deadlifts and eat more for gods sake

Any exercise where you pull your shoulder blades together will work your mid traps. I wouls suggest close hammer grip cable rows. Make sure to initiate the motion with your traps and not any other muscle. Also deadlifts will help thicken the area along your spine.

[QUOTE=kethnaab]too many kids start off thinking they need to "specialize".

"How can I build a peak in my biceps?"
"How can I develop my upper chest?"
"How can I increase my hamstring musculature?"
"How can I get more of a cap to my medial deltoids"?

Then you ask the kid how much he weighs, and he answers "148 lbs"

well **** dude, how about you try lifting weights for awhile, THEN ask the above questions, eh? :P

build mass first. Then, once you've mastered the "masters of muscle development" that are contained within Rippetoe's workout ([url]www.startingstrength.com[/url] - go buy the book! ) you will have a better idea of what your "weak points" are.

Until you're actually big, you have NO CLUE what your weak points are because your ENTIRE BODY is one big weak point![/QUOTE]

:)

High pulls, shrugs, heavy deadlifts/rack pulls. High rep work, except for the deadlifts, which is in the 2-5 rep area.

agreed on all counts, except for high pulls

i can never find a place that'll let me do these. I've never seen an actual gym that allowed Olympic weightlifting

[QUOTE=kethnaab]agreed on all counts, except for high pulls

i can never find a place that'll let me do these. I've never seen an actual gym that allowed Olympic weightlifting[/QUOTE]
My gym on base has olympic bumper plates:)

[QUOTE=listerofsmeg]I have been training on and off for 3 years, but it was pretty crap last year to be honest. The last 3 months of last year I didn't train at all due to moving house and work commitments.

I am a skinny bugger, but New year I looked terrible. Skinny with a gut is not a good look :D

So, I have been cutting slowly since new year, and can finally train properly now I have my garage gym. Despite cutting, I have been slowly gaining strength so am pretty happy with how it's going so far. Today I took a few pictures to see how I compared to Jan.

Overall I'm pretty happy. Yup, I'm a lanky skinny git (6'4"), but still want to shed a bit more fat from my midsection before I start bulking. However, from looking at the piccys it seems my back needs a lot of work at the top. You can see my spine for god's sake!

What can I do to hit that area? The area between my shoulder blades looks totally devoid of muscle.

Before you ask, my back work consists of: (All 3x6-9)
Tue: Close grip weighted chinups, Bent over BB row
Fri: Deadlifts, Wide grip weighted pullups, Seated cable row (hammer grip to stomach). Shrugs.

Sometimes I drop the shrugs if I'm feeling whacked. Do you think that's the problem?

Thanks for any suggestions[/QUOTE]


I see lots of recommendations for traps 1 and 2, but not many for 3 and 4 which is what he is asking I believe.

I find BEHIND NECK pulldowns and chins hit this area HARD. The act of pulling the shoulder blades together seems to really hit here.

On your bent rows, do some pulling the bar HIGH ON THE CHEST. Don't use heavy weights on these; try for full range of motion bringing the elbows back as far as possible.

As stated; deads and rack pulls will work this area, but the higher you start your pull the less it works the lower area of the traps.

Something strange that hits lower traps is a single db front raise, but only done from above the head to about chest level. Grip the DB with a palms together grip (hold DB vertical)

[QUOTE=Bammy]Any exercise where you pull your shoulder blades together will work your mid traps. I wouls suggest close hammer grip cable rows. Make sure to initiate the motion with your traps and not any other muscle. Also deadlifts will help thicken the area along your spine.[/QUOTE]

I agree.

You can also isolate your middle back by just pulling your shoulder blades together on seated rows. if you're strict you should be able to move the cable almost a foot without bending your arms or lower back. I had shoulder problems because my other back exercise form didn't include pulling my shoulder blades together. So in an effort to catch I do the isolated shoulder blade exercise and also am careful with my form on the other one's. It's made a difference :)

Wide Grip BB Rows, and do them first thing in your workout for its full effectiveness.

How far is your grip on BB rows? Try placing your grip further apart and do them. They really feel different than a normal BB row. Be sure to pull your shoulder blades together in any kind of row!!!

Take note that if you experience any discomfort in your shoulder, just drop the exercise from your routine. If you feel fine doing it then good.

[quote="kethnaab"]As you gain mass, the tummy will start to disappear, assuming you keep your diet clean[/quote]
Hmmm. I'm not so sure it will. This is how I started 3 years ago. I had a tummy, but was too impatient to cut. I ended up with a lot of fat, and kindof regretted it. Having said that, my diet was NOT clean :D

[quote="Mightmouse37"]And yeah, don't worry about cutting more, because once you start bulking, you will gain a little bit of fat [I don't think the tummy will disappear unless you eat extremely clean], which would end up covering whatever abs you ended up revealing in the first place. I'd bulk first, get to where you wanna be, and then worry about cutting again.[/quote]

I am still cutting because I still have a spare tyre around the middle. I know my back pics make me look skeletal, but I still have a far amount of fat sat on the front. My BF is around 19% (cheapy crap electrostatic scales admittedly). Maybe I'm being too anal though. Even my wife says I'm look too skinny now so maybe I'll just say sod it, and start bulking.

[quote="dasixthsun"]shrugs, deadlifts and eat more for gods sake[/quote]
OK! OK! I get the message! :D

[quote="Bammy"]I wouls suggest close hammer grip cable rows. Make sure to initiate the motion with your traps and not any other muscle. Also deadlifts will help thicken the area along your spine.[/quote]
I do both of these already (see first post). I am pretty strict with the rows too. Definately pulling with my back to start with.

[quote="AHTTG"]too many kids start off thinking they need to "specialize".[/quote]
Well yeah, I spose I deserved that :D. I was just pretty shocked at how little muscle was in that area when the rest of me looks okish considering I've been dieting for 5 months. I figured I must be missing something from my routine for there to be such a difference.

[quote="Squats"]High rep work[/quote]
Really? :? How high? 9-12?

[quote="defiant1"]I find BEHIND NECK pulldowns and chins hit this area HARD. The act of pulling the shoulder blades together seems to really hit here.
On your bent rows, do some pulling the bar HIGH ON THE CHEST. Don't use heavy weights on these; try for full range of motion bringing the elbows back as far as possible. [/quote]
Ah thanks for your very informative post. I will give these a go.
As for the bent rows, I row to the sternem, and am bent over pretty far. Close to horizontal. I will try rowing the to the high chest. Would standing up slightly more help do you think? When you mention elbows, do mean keep them back, rather than out? Surely this would hit my biceps / forearms more? :?

[quote="Pullup17"]How far is your grip on BB rows?[/quote]
About shoulder width.

Thanks for all the comments. Looks like the consensus is to stop cutting and start eating :D

[QUOTE=kethnaab]agreed on all counts, except for high pulls

i can never find a place that'll let me do these. I've never seen an actual gym that allowed Olympic weightlifting[/QUOTE]
Do em hang.

Be careful with the Behind the neck Pull-downs as they can lead to rotator cuff problems. This is an unnatural movement. Some can do them without problems, some can't--just be aware.

For hitting the spot between your shoulder blades (Rhomboids, mid and lower traps) I recommend adding Lat Pull Shrugs and Kelso Shrugs to your workouts.

LAT PULL SHRUGS: Draw/contract your shoulder blades down and together. Try to pinch them together. I superset these with my pull-ups or Lat Pull-downs.

KELSO SHRUGS: Lay face down on an incline bench or get into rowing position and while holding a bar or some dumbbells and draw shoulder blades back and together. Again, try to pinch your shoulders blades. I superset these with my rows.

With both of these exercises try various grips and widths. Experiment and see what works best for you.

I recommend picking up a copy of Kelso's Shrug Book. [url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1587361167/002-6890506-5958432?v=glance&n=283155[/url]

[QUOTE=jocularric]
KELSO SHRUGS: Lay face down on an incline bench or get into rowing position and while holding a bar or some dumbbells and draw shoulder blades back and together. Again, try to pinch your shoulders blades. I superset these with my rows.

With both of these exercises try various grips and widths. Experiment and see what works best for you.

I recommend picking up a copy of Kelso's Shrug Book. [url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1587361167/002-6890506-5958432?v=glance&n=283155[/url][/QUOTE]
Aren't kelso shrugs supposed to be performed on a flat bench? On an incline would seem to work a lot more of rear delts then rhomboids

[QUOTE=listerofsmeg]What can I do to hit that area? The area between my shoulder blades looks totally devoid of muscle.[/QUOTE]My back looked similar to yours when I started.

Keep it simple. Rows. Chins. Deadlifts. Do all 3 on the right diet and you'll start filling in your back. This isn't hardass tough guy talk, but you've got to be aggressive with it. Hit it hard and make back training your #1 priority.

[QUOTE=WillB485]Aren't kelso shrugs supposed to be performed on a flat bench? On an incline would seem to work a lot more of rear delts then rhomboids[/QUOTE]It would be nice if you can, but they are too close to the floor and there's not enough clearance with your arms down straight.

[QUOTE=_Dominik_] This isn't hardass tough guy talk, but you've got to be aggressive with it. Hit it hard and make back training your #1 priority.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

It never ceases to amze me how many guys I see in the gym busting their guts on on bicep curls and bench press and pussy foot around when it comes to hitting the back.

[QUOTE=niceasey]Agreed.

It never ceases to amze me how many guys I see in the gym busting their guts on on bicep curls and bench press and pussy foot around when it comes to hitting the back.[/QUOTE]
Haha at my gym, people don't EVEN work the back or legs, except a few guys. We have 4 benches for BP, 6 benches for free weight DB's, 1 squat rack, and 1 power rack. Thats 10 benches for chest, 1 for legs, and 1 for back. And its funny, because the squat rack is EMPTY every single time I've been in the past 2 years

[QUOTE=niceasey]Agreed.

It never ceases to amze me how many guys I see in the gym busting their guts on on bicep curls and bench press and pussy foot around when it comes to hitting the back.[/QUOTE]Exactly. You might be able to get away with pumping up the chest and arms using moderate weights and seeing decent results, but with the back, unless you really slam it hard with heavy weights, you might see some width in the lats or height in the upper traps but it'll never have that real thickness that makes a big statement.

A lot of powerlifters have it from years of beating it with heavy deads and rows and it looks impressive. It also makes a difference on the scales. The muscle is packed in really densely, there's thickness around the shoulder blades where the deeper back muscles are pushing through and the erectors run up the back like thick cables. You can spot the difference straight away.

[QUOTE=WillB485]Haha at my gym, people don't EVEN work the back or legs, except a few guys. We have 4 benches for BP, 6 benches for free weight DB's, 1 squat rack, and 1 power rack. Thats 10 benches for chest, 1 for legs, and 1 for back. And its funny, because the squat rack is EMPTY every single time I've been in the past 2 years[/QUOTE]
Yeah I agree, I always want to say something, but then I just think, oh well, I'll look better than them anyway. Nothing like a powerfull back.

[QUOTE=listerofsmeg]






Well yeah, I spose I deserved that :D. I was just pretty shocked at how little
Ah thanks for your very informative post. I will give these a go.
As for the bent rows, I row to the sternem, and am bent over pretty far. Close to horizontal. I will try rowing the to the high chest. Would standing up slightly more help do you think? When you mention elbows, do mean keep them back, rather than out? Surely this would hit my biceps / forearms more? :?


[/QUOTE]

No, for middle back keep them out. The closer to your body the more lat.

The more you stand up WITH ELBOWS OUT, the higher you work on your back.

[QUOTE=WillB485]Aren't kelso shrugs supposed to be performed on a flat bench? On an incline would seem to work a lot more of rear delts then rhomboids[/QUOTE]That would be nice--allowing you to focus more on the movement and isolating the traps/rhomboids. But not every everyone has access to a bench that will adjust high enough or can be propped up. A low (horizontal) rowing position is what I use.

With this movement your delts should be acting as stabilizers. The primary movers will be, should be, your traps and rhomboids. Even on an incline the idea is to bring your shoulder blades together--not the adduction of your arms. An incline will have more of the work being done by your upper traps.