Don't Take Arginine Pre-workout ?!?

I know a lot of people (including myself) like to take Arginine 'pre'-workout for the pumps, but it appears pre-workout oral Arginine may be counterproductive, as it may actually reduce the GH (growth hormone) response to exercise... some are suggesting that it should only be taken on off days or 'post'-workout...

(see "Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise" - [url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1655191[/url])

However, I haven't found this discussed in the context of a full pre-WO supplement stack. I suspect that studying the performance of a pre-workout stack such as Creatine-Mono/Arginine/BCAA as a whole may be different than looking at the effects or Arg alone (since Arg is a Creatine precursor, etc.)

[b]Should we not be taking Arginine pre-workout... should we not take it at all???[/b] Can anyone provide any further technical insight? Scientific references? (no product info or sales pitches please).

Thanks...

If I remember correctly isn't it in SuperPump250? SuperPump is a pre-workout drink so wouldn't that negate all the positives of the product?

[QUOTE=1995GM;67521713]If I remember correctly isn't it in SuperPump250? SuperPump is a pre-workout drink so wouldn't that negate all the positives of the product?[/QUOTE]Arginine is a common supp in a lot of pre-workout products out there... that's why I think it's an important question.

Specifically I am curious as to whether anyone has seen any info regarding the impact of Arginine (taken pre-workout) on growth hormone, when taken along with other supplements (BCAA's and Creatine for example). Is there still a negative impact as has been observed when taking Arginine 'only' pre-workout?

I searched through Pubmed, but I became overwhelmed with search result going that route... that is the kind of info I'm looking for though.

as i understand, from the articles and studies ive read, l-arginine helps increas the production of GH, not reduce it

[QUOTE=BIG_prom;67547923]as i understand, from the articles and studies ive read, l-arginine helps increas the production of GH, not reduce it[/QUOTE]
You obviously missed this "Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise" -> [url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1655191[/url]

[QUOTE=BIG_prom;67547923]as i understand, from the articles and studies ive read, l-arginine helps increas the production of GH, not reduce it[/QUOTE]Right... however, the above-mentioned study finds that 'exercise alone' results in a greater GH secretion boost than 'exercise + pre-workout arginine'. So, Arginine has a negative effect in this regard.

That's pretty big news considering that so many people are taking Arginine pre-workout for the pumps, creatine synthesis, etc.

this study only had 8 participants. That fact right off the bat makes it invalid and un-reliable. A good study that can be taken seriously should consist of many more people to make an impact. Also, as big-prom stated, other studies have been consitant with showing benefits on GH, not disadvantages. If many other good studies start showing this negative effect, then take it into consideration

[QUOTE=MaximumTaxation;67581873]this study only had 8 participants. That fact right off the bat makes it invalid and un-reliable. A good study that can be taken seriously should consist of many more people to make an impact. [/QUOTE]
I have some education in statistical analysis, and appreciate what you are saying regarding the size of the study... still I don't think you ingnore that just because it's a small sample size... the result was consistent and "significant" across all subjects.
[QUOTE=MaximumTaxation;67581873]Also, as big-prom stated, other studies have been consitant with showing benefits on GH, not disadvantages. If many other good studies start showing this negative effect, then take it into consideration[/QUOTE]Keep in mind that this study does not go against what big-prom stated... you have to take it a step further, the study says [b]"Oral arginine alone (7 g) stimulated GH release, but a greater GH response was seen with exercise alone. The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates the GH response."[/b]

So, in a nutshell, it seems to me that Arginine still = Good... except for "pre-workout".

Surprised this doesn't garner more interest considering the ba-zillion pre-workout products and stacks containing Arginine that are discussed here on a daily basis...

studies need atleast 30 people to be credible, with statistical perfection in 100 people

1 study says bad, while numerous says good. you be the judge

This is an interesting topic.

[QUOTE=AConrad00;67655233]studies need atleast 30 people to be credible, with statistical perfection in 100 people

1 study says bad, while numerous says good. you be the judge[/QUOTE]

Find me a single study that specifically concludes 'Exercise + Arg' > 'Exercise alone' (in terms of GH response) and you've got reps coming your way my friend!

Arginine is a GH precursor and and helps increase GH levels overall..Also arginine is proven is university studies to increase exercise performance/power. there can always be conflicting studies, but athletes have used arginine for over 30 years and its benifits are well known...it is only recently that this silly increased pumps benefit has become popular...arginine is much more then just for this.

[QUOTE=LockOut;67666173]Arginine is a GH precursor and and helps increase GH levels overall..Also arginine is proven is university studies to increase exercise performance/power. there can always be conflicting studies, but athletes have used arginine for over 30 years and its benifits are well known...it is only recently that this silly increased pumps benefit has become popular...arginine is much more then just for this.[/QUOTE]The studies aren't conflicting at all, Arginine supplementation had not been studied extensively in conjuction with exercise (most past studies have focused on subjects at rest)... there's clearly the possibility that supplementing Arginine [i]pre-WO[/i] impairs GH release [i]during resistive exercise[/i] as these studies are showing, so I'll hold off on taking it pre-WO until the verdict is out...

Off-days, sure... just not pre-WO.

well Arginine has been studied for many years, very exstensively. Yes it has been studied with very favorable results on excercise performance. so I think like most things there is conflicting studies...as always the proof is in the results.

[QUOTE=LockOut;67711893]well Arginine has been studied for many years, very exstensively. Yes it has been studied with very favorable results on excercise performance. so I think like most things there is conflicting studies...as always the proof is in the results.[/QUOTE]uhhhh, I think you already said that, to which I replied..... [url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=67708113&postcount=15[/url]

Even if this is true, and enough holes were poked to doubt its validity, what does it matter?

Your argument assumes that growth hormone is the ONLY factor responsible for strength and size increases in the gym. That's where you're obviously missing the boat.

While one would obviously prefer to have more GH production, if he's seeing more gains with arginine than without it, your argument is rendered moot. From all indications, the increased NO production, which leads to better blood flow, better pumps, more nutrient delivery and (I believe) more endurance, is helpful for making gains in the gym.

Since people generally conclude that working out with arginine is more effective than working out without it, you can safely assume that those other properties of arginine are more important than the difference in GH production.

[QUOTE=ksamurai;67514283]I know a lot of people (including myself) like to take Arginine 'pre'-workout for the pumps, but it appears pre-workout oral Arginine may be counterproductive, as it may actually reduce the GH (growth hormone) response to exercise... some are suggesting that it should only be taken on off days or 'post'-workout...

(see "Oral arginine attenuates the growth hormone response to resistance exercise" - [url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1655191[/url])

However, I haven't found this discussed in the context of a full pre-WO supplement stack. I suspect that studying the performance of a pre-workout stack such as Creatine-Mono/Arginine/BCAA as a whole may be different than looking at the effects or Arg alone (since Arg is a Creatine precursor, etc.)

[b]Should we not be taking Arginine pre-workout... should we not take it at all???[/b] Can anyone provide any further technical insight? Scientific references? (no product info or sales pitches please).

Thanks...[/QUOTE]

Show me more studies on this then your argument can be validated otherwise one study with 8 people isn't credible and is considered inconclusive.

[QUOTE=IntensityX;67762183]Show me more studies on this then your argument can be validated otherwise one study with 8 people isn't credible and is considered inconclusive.[/QUOTE]
Another one...

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10496544&dopt=AbstractPlus][b]Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults.[/b][/url]
[quote][size=1]BACKGROUND: Growth hormone (GH) helps maintain body composition and metabolism in adults. However, basal and peak GH decline with age. Exercise produces a physiologic GH response that is subnormal in elderly people. Arginine (Arg) infusion can augment GH secretion, but the efficacy of oral Arg to improve GH response to exercise has not been explored. We investigated whether oral Arg increases GH secretion in young and old people at rest and during exercise. METHODS: Twenty young (Y: 22.1 +/- 0.9 y; SEM) and 8 old (O: 68.5 +/- 2.1 y) male and female subjects underwent three different trials following determination of their one-repetition maximum strength (1-RM); exercise only (EO; 3 sets, 8-10 reps at 85% of 1-RM; on 12 separate resistive lifts), Arg only (5.0 g), or Arg + exercise. Blood samples were collected between successive lifts, and GH (ng x ml(-1)) was determined via RIA. RESULTS: In Y vs O: Basal GH secreted (area under the curve) was 543.6 +/- 84.0 vs 211.5 +/- 63.0. During EO, values were 986.6 +/- 156.6 and 517.8 +/- 85.5. Both were significantly lower in the older individuals (p < .05). Oral Arg alone did not result in any increase in GH secretion at rest (310.8 +/- 73.2 vs 262.9 +/- 141.2). When Arg was coadministered during exercise, GH release was not affected in either the young or old and appeared to be blunted in the young compared to the exercise only trial in the young. CONCLUSION: Based upon these findings, we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise. [/size][/quote]

[QUOTE=in10city;67787783]Another one...

[url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10496544&dopt=AbstractPlus][b]Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults.[/b][/url][/QUOTE]

There is only 28 participants so with three groups there is only 9 or 10 per group which is a pretty small size and you would need large differences in the results between groups to draw any conclusion. They dont even give the results from the exercise + arg group and dont give any statistical comparison between exercise + arg and exercise only. read the conclusion

[QUOTE]
CONCLUSION: Based upon these findings, we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise.[/QUOTE]

"may impair GH" I wouldn't think much about it till more research confirms this and there is more to arginine the its effect on GH.

[QUOTE=default8;67792423]There is only 28 participants so with three groups there is only 9 or 10 per group which is a pretty small size and you would need large differences in the results between groups to draw any conclusion. They dont even give the results from the exercise + arg group and dont give any statistical comparison between exercise + arg and exercise only. read the conclusion



"may impair GH" I wouldn't think much about it till more research confirms this and there is more to arginine the its effect on GH.[/QUOTE]
I guess putting a little elbow grease into workouts gets the shaft in favor of hopes that OTC supplements will do the work instead.

[QUOTE=IntensityX;67762183]Show me more studies on this then your argument can be validated otherwise one study with 8 people isn't credible and is considered inconclusive.[/QUOTE]If you had read through the original link you would have seen that multiple studies from different universities have been published that come to this conclusion.

"The combined effect of arginine before exercise attenuates (reduces) the GH response."

"Based upon these findings, we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise."

[QUOTE=bcantor;67749233]
...Your argument assumes that growth hormone is the ONLY factor responsible for strength and size increases in the gym...
[/QUOTE]
Well it's not 'my' argument, but you do make a fair point. Can you provide links to any research that shows greater increases in strength and size from 'exercise + Arg' than from 'exercise alone'?

[QUOTE=bcantor;67749233]
...[b]if he's seeing[/b] more gains with arginine than without it, your argument is rendered moot. From all indications, the increased NO production, which leads to better blood flow, better pumps, more nutrient delivery and (I believe) more endurance, is helpful for making gains in the gym.

Since [b]people generally conclude[/b] that working out with arginine is more effective than working out without it, [b]you can safely assume[/b] that those other properties of arginine are more important than the difference in GH production.[/QUOTE]
You are quick to write off the clinical research as invalid, but you're making a awful lot of assumptions to support your beliefs here.

I welcome you to negate these findings, but please support your argument with published research.

If you are worried about Arginine pre-workout, combine it with some Ornithine. When you combine both amino Acids they have a positive effect on your body's GH release.

im gonna go with the old "everyones body is different and responds differently to supplements" rant


theres my oppinion









BEAT THAT!

[QUOTE=J2jud;67853683]If you are worried about Arginine pre-workout, combine it with some Ornithine. When you combine both amino Acids they have a positive effect on your body's GH release.[/QUOTE]Have any links?

Thought this was interesting...

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=12093449&ordinalpos=5&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum[/url]

In asking for counter research from me, you're completely miscategorizing both your argument AND my argument.

By no means am I disputing that arginine might hinder growth hormone production; I'm merely questioning whether that fact means you'll make less gains in the gym.

That's what you're arguing - that, despite all the other benefits of arginine, the fact that you'll produce less GH during the workout means it's detrimental to take it. You're wrong to make that assumption.

My point is that even if you're right, who cares? Growth Hormone production is not the sole factor determining how much size you gain in the gym.

[QUOTE=bcantor;68200143]In asking for counter research from me, you're completely miscategorizing both your argument AND my argument.

By no means am I disputing that arginine might hinder growth hormone production; I'm merely questioning whether that fact means you'll make less gains in the gym.

That's what you're arguing - that, despite all the other benefits of arginine, the fact that you'll produce less GH during the workout means it's detrimental to take it. You're wrong to make that assumption.

My point is that even if you're right, who cares? Growth Hormone production is not the sole factor determining how much size you gain in the gym.[/QUOTE]

agreed with Bcantor

i have a supp guide which came in an issue of flex. the product in question, arginine,is listed in the preworkout section of the book. it states ,
"these products not only provide fule for starving muscles during workouts, but they give a skin stretching pump with each set."

the mag then rates the product as 5 out of 5 for effectivness stating,
"it enhances nitric oxide (NO) production. this crucial compound helps improve blood flow to exercising muscles and therefore the delivery of nutrients, hormones and oxygen, which can help body-builders in their training and recovery. in clinical studies,arginine has also been found to SIGNIFICANTLY RAISE GH levels at dose of 5-10grames."

dose 3-10grams of arginine or NO products 3times per day,one dose 30-60mins preworkout, and one dose 30-60mins before bed.