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[QUOTE=stealth_swimmer;1003971873]I *do* see your point, but all I'm sayin is that last time I went to the Olympia, they had like 12 judges. Even if you get 5 perfect scores, that means *7* scores are tossed out (in other words, more than half of the scores). I think it's just that we hear "perfect scores" and that automatically gets us thinking that something shady must have happened in a competition as close as this one(even I got thinking a little, till I remembered how the Olympia usually has a lot of judges).[/QUOTE]
I see what your saying, but my response is that 1)we don't even really know how many judges "for sure" judge the events, because transparency is minimal, and the judges keep away those scorecards, so we can't see what the raw scores were.
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[QUOTE=tsiparlanaeht;1004089383]Well from what I saw of both in contest shape Phil's were much bigger popping off the bone. ;)
If you said legs/chest/back/biceps i would agree. Maybe a 300lb offseason Kai's forearms yeah but not contest shape no.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/lIbsV.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
All the muscles between the shoulder joint and wrist seem to be developed on Heath. Kai's forearms are alright compared to most pros I think, just not compared to Heath. Heath's flow, separation, and roundness make his entire limb look better from delt to forearm, imo.
[QUOTE=BlackNumero;1004507383]I see what your saying, but my response is that 1)we don't even really know how many judges "for sure" judge the events, because transparency is minimal, and the judges keep away those scorecards, so we can't see what the raw scores were.[/QUOTE]
That's true. I'm all for more transparency so that the fans at least can see what's going on. I actually think it'd be cool for the judges to post their scorecards to the public after prejudging and then again after the winner is announced at finals.
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[QUOTE=stealth_swimmer;1005869353]All the muscles between the shoulder joint and wrist seem to be developed on Heath. Kai's forearms are alright compared to most pros I think, just not compared to Heath. Heath's flow, separation, and roundness make his entire limb look better from delt to forearm, imo.
[/QUOTE]
That picture is a terrible comparison. Heath so much closer to the camera and kai with a straight hand. I agree that Heath has better forearm attachments and shape but in pure size as i said earlier in this thread and seeing them in person i think kai's are bigger.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/WvBMz.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/u1Zkc.jpg[/img]
Better pic's compared both to Roelly And Phil the "forearm kings"
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[QUOTE=jahaa;1005873413]That picture is a terrible comparison. Heath so much closer to the camera and kai with a straight hand. I agree that Heath has better forearm attachments and shape but in pure size as i said earlier in this thread and seeing them in person i think kai's are bigger.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/WvBMz.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/u1Zkc.jpg[/img]
Better pic's compared both to Roelly And Phil the "forearm kings"[/QUOTE]
are you actually blind? lol
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[QUOTE=razmatazbaz;1005883293]are you actually blind? lol[/QUOTE]No actually Freeman has the biggest forearms up there.
Couldn't even keep a straight face behind the monitor typing that.
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[QUOTE=jahaa;1005918153]Because i dont agree with your opinion based biased picture? Ive seen them both in person, have you?[/QUOTE]
oh yeah separately in the offseason, good comparison
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[QUOTE=stealth_swimmer;1005869353]
That's true. I'm all for more transparency so that the fans at least can see what's going on. I actually think it'd be cool for the judges to post their scorecards to the public after prejudging and then again after the winner is announced at finals.[/QUOTE]
I love this idea.
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[QUOTE=jahaa;1005873413]That picture is a terrible comparison. Heath so much closer to the camera and kai with a straight hand. I agree that Heath has better forearm attachments and shape [b]but in pure size as i said earlier in this thread and seeing them in person i think kai's are bigger.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
dear sweet jesus..
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/otBhQ.png[/IMG] vs [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/im0aW.png[/IMG]
[img]http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/683/phil2o.jpg[/img][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/6cP1o.png[/IMG]
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[QUOTE=Jeddore;1006161963]dear sweet jesus..
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/otBhQ.png[/IMG] vs [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/im0aW.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
not scaled right, his forearms wouldnt look better anyway but still cmon man
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Also, that is Phil's bigger arm and Kai's weak arm. Phil wins from front and side tri but Kai wins arms from the back
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Some one post to Jeddore some BDB to see Kai's arms compared to Phil's.
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Thanks you share info nice .!
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[QUOTE=NaturalLoco;1004129423]back double bicep
look at the lateral heads and the long heads, kai has a greater longhead sweep, phil has a better lateral head
btw not disagreeing that phil has better triceps, just pointing out what i believe to be better developed[/QUOTE]
Very good analysis. Also explains why phil often looks to have smaller arms in fdb & rdb (where his massive lateral head does not play a factor in the arm 'height') yet absolutely dominate the same bodybuilders in his MM pose where the lateral head is flared out to the max.
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[QUOTE=Jeddore;1006161963]dear sweet jesus..
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/otBhQ.png[/IMG] vs [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/im0aW.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]Here is a more intelligent pic, Kai's arms are like Robby Robinson's, small wrists with shorter muscle bellies, biceps peak
[img]http://www.africanmuscle.com/Mag/Mag/mr-olympia-2012-phil-heath-kai-greene.jpg[/img]
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[QUOTE=Riflemancho;1006369763]Some one post to Jeddore some BDB to see Kai's arms compared to Phil's.[/QUOTE]
[img]http://pics.musculardevelopment.com/photos/transferred/_PB73995wtmk.JPG[/img]
kai has dat peak but doesn't have bigger forearms sorry brah
another shot where phils forearms are pretty blatantly larger than kai's
[img]http://www.musculardevelopment.com/images/stories/video-thumbs/JAY_PHIL_INSET_350.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Gorky88;1006343003]Also, that is Phil's bigger arm and Kai's weak arm. Phil wins from front and side tri but Kai wins arms from the back[/QUOTE]
ok here's phil's 'smaller arm' and kai's 'stronger arm'
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/ddop5f.png[/IMG][IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2lsxwzc.png[/IMG]
still bigger lol
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HIeTC.jpg[/IMG]
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look at how his forearm ties in half way up his tricep^
nuts.
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Never said anythnig about forearms. Kai's arm is bigger than Phil's, just because of the biceps peak, but Phil's shape is much preferable yeah.
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So much *facepalm* on this page of the thread.
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[QUOTE=Jeddore;1006415093][img]http://pics.musculardevelopment.com/photos/transferred/_PB73995wtmk.JPG[/img]
kai has dat peak but doesn't have bigger forearms sorry brah
another shot where phils forearms are pretty blatantly larger than kai's
[img]http://www.musculardevelopment.com/images/stories/video-thumbs/JAY_PHIL_INSET_350.jpg[/img]
ok here's phil's 'smaller arm' and kai's 'stronger arm'
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/ddop5f.png[/IMG][IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2lsxwzc.png[/IMG]
still bigger lol
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HIeTC.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
What this guy said. And again, Phil's entire upper limb flows better and is more proportionate, partially because of his great forearm development.
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^
Did you just say Phil is more proportionate than Kai?
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[QUOTE=RoroCwalker;1006823703]^
Did you just say Phil is more proportionate than Kai?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=stealth_swimmer;1006788433]What this guy said. And again, [B]Phil's entire upper limb flows better and is more proportionate[/B], partially because of his great forearm development.[/QUOTE]
Read.
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Phil's forearms are twice the size of Kai's. It's a little scary considering their training. Kai actually trains his forearms at the start of an arm workout (or at least he did in that Pulcinella vid), while Phil doesn't train his arms at all except for the month leading up to a show (never mind training forearms!)
Sometimes I think bodybuilding is just a genetics contest.
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[QUOTE=BartPimpson;1006910463]
Sometimes I think bodybuilding is just a genetics contest.[/QUOTE]
On Phil and Kai's level they are certainly important.
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Arguing about forearms?
I mean cmon guys...just cmon.
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Dextor jackson is a true legend of bodybuilding , makes no sense how he doesnt have as many fans as you would think . imo best body in the ifbb
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[QUOTE=MaKaiser;1006913383]Arguing about forearms?
I mean cmon guys...just cmon.[/QUOTE]The arms are the most important parts to win a contest, and any respectable curl monkey can testify for this. Look at Haney and Dorian, they shouldn't have been Mr Olympia, smaller and even injured arms, what the hell were the judges thinking about?
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[img]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5219603&d=1356667400[/img]
this picture illustrates a great example of fundamental STRUCTURAL FLAWS, that some guys have, which, AT THIS LEVEL OF COMPETITION, can make a difference.....
KAI simply has an unusually high insertion of the lateral head of his triceps, creating a flat gap adjacent to the biceps when doing this pose...
now, I emphasize the word RELATIVE, because, in any lesser competition, his tri's would probably blow away most of the competition, but at the OLYMPIA level, where these guys are separated by the slimmest of margins, a simply thing like this could mean a difference in the judge's perception.
if you are unlucky enough to have two or more of these "flaws" in your structure, they could possibly always prevent you from defeating CERTAIN people, who may not have them.
which is why in Bodybuilding, it is necessary, if possible to tailor your poses to possibly hide such structural deficits...
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kai is an amazing poser but wtf is he doing here , well spoted ... posing is extremelly important especially when it comes to elevating weak areas
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[QUOTE=transformerchad;1006963033]kai is an amazing poser but wtf is he doing here , well spoted ... posing is extremelly important especially when it comes to elevating weak areas[/QUOTE]
what is he doing that is so "wtf" worthy?
