Getting those lower abs to show

Hi. I've been working out seriously since 2001, and like many other guys out there, I'm on the elusive quest for a six-pack. After eating 1600 cal/day and working out 5 days a week (sometimes 6) for 3 years, I got 4 of my abs to show. In three years since then, I STILL can't get the lower abs to pop. I've tried just about everything: all of the ab exercises, working abs in combination with other exercises, stomach vacuums, cutting down on fat intake, etc. I eat 6 meals a day, drink loads of water, get about 140g of protein, shakes before/after W/O, supplement with creatine and glutamine, basically doing all of the right stuff. What's the deal with the lower abs not showing? I've even used ab gel that's supposed to tighten up the skin. My brother-in-law insists it's because I'm over 40. Please help me prove him wrong! Any suggestions gratefully received!

Reduce your carbs and increase your fat intake. You must eat fat to burn fat. Try and lose the carbs after 4 pm ish.

Your age is nothing to do with it.

If you are very active then it's possible you are not eating enough calories anyway. Your RMR based upon your age, height and weight is around 1500 calories a day. If you do not eat enough your body will fight you to hold onto fat because it thinks it is being starved so your systems slows down.

Just for now though change the composition of your diet and keep the calories the same.

I agree on the stuff you said, but what kinds of fats do you think I should be taking in? Are you suggesting I hit the local chippie? (I saw you were from the UK) :-)
Potentially dumb question, but: if my daily RMR is 1500 calories, should I be taking in substantially more than that? I do lift weights and want to add some mass, but I obviously don't want to overdo it on calories. Also: no carbs after 4 pm, so what should I be eating for dinner? Just protein? What about veggies? Thanks

Yep I'm in the UK. Lol I can't remember the last time I ate anything from the local fish and chip shop.

At 154 lbs you want to be taking in around 250 grams of protein a day if you want to gain muscle. This goes hand in hand with an increase in calories but not too many. You want lean gains and not extra fat. Be patient as it's a finely balanced process but you can gain muscle whilst losing body fat. A good 40 grams of protein a day should come from low carb whey protein which will help manage calories. A slow release low carb protein such as CNP peptide is useful as a late night snack to feed your system overnight or failing that some chicken breast works well enough.

Fats? You must eat saturated fat. It's that simple. Don't do low fat. As I said before you must eat fat to burn fat and saturated metabolises the best. Stay away from any trans and polyunsaturated fats. Mono unsaturated fat such as in olive oil is good. Saturated fat does more than provide you system with its preferred choice of fuel as it also protects you from free radicals and any polyunsaturated fat in your diet.

Carbs? Easy. I do not eat carbs for breakfast nor after 4 pm. When I say carbs I mean oats, breakfast cereals, bread, pasta potatoes and rice et cetera. If I do eat carbs it will be late morning and even then it will be something like grapefruit. If and when I eat veggies in the evening I choose from cauliflower, broccoli and greens. Reducing carbs and being clever about when you do eat them will give your system the chance to tap into those stubborn fat reserves.

Do not make wholesale changes. Make small changes and as I said earlier raise your protein and fat intake, reduce the carbs and think about what carbs you eat and when you eat them. For say four weeks keep your overall calorie intake the same. See what the results are.

I don't know how much cardio you do but if it's for too long and too intense then you will hit muscle instead of fat. You can protect yourself by consuming whey protein before and after but for fat burning the sessions should be short and intense. If you get off the treadmill or bike with legs like jelly then that is to much. Don't turn it into endurance. The body does not like it. Sprinters keep muscle. Distance runners do not.

I'm off to the gym.

Cheers for all of the helpful advice. I will do as you say, namely: cut out the carbs in the morning and evening, get more saturated fat (makes me a little nervous, since it took me a long time to shed fat before; I know, I know, it's different this time), and keep the cardio stuff short and intense. I see a lot of guys on here talking about HIIT (i.e. high-intensity interval training). I have read a lot of material suggesting that sprints are better overall for fat burning than 30 minutes on a treadmill at 6 mph. I also read that whey protein is better in the mornings and around workout time, but casein is better at night. Thoughts? The cardio I do, BTW, is not the jelly-leg-producing kind. I've gotten much better in terms of a "slow and steady wins the race" kind of mentality. Enjoy your time at the gym and thanks for your help!

[QUOTE=Veedub;108640191]Yep I'm in the UK. Lol I can't remember the last time I ate anything from the local fish and chip shop.

At 154 lbs you want to be taking in around 250 grams of protein a day if you want to gain muscle. This goes hand in hand with an increase in calories but not too many. You want lean gains and not extra fat. Be patient as it's a finely balanced process but you can gain muscle whilst losing body fat. A good 40 grams of protein a day should come from low carb whey protein which will help manage calories. A slow release low carb protein such as CNP peptide is useful as a late night snack to feed your system overnight or failing that some chicken breast works well enough.

Fats? You must eat saturated fat. It's that simple. Don't do low fat. As I said before you must eat fat to burn fat and saturated metabolises the best. Stay away from any trans and polyunsaturated fats. Mono unsaturated fat such as in olive oil is good. Saturated fat does more than provide you system with its preferred choice of fuel as it also protects you from free radicals and any polyunsaturated fat in your diet.

Carbs? Easy. I do not eat carbs for breakfast nor after 4 pm. When I say carbs I mean oats, breakfast cereals, bread, pasta potatoes and rice et cetera. If I do eat carbs it will be late morning and even then it will be something like grapefruit. If and when I eat veggies in the evening I choose from cauliflower, broccoli and greens. Reducing carbs and being clever about when you do eat them will give your system the chance to tap into those stubborn fat reserves.

Do not make wholesale changes. Make small changes and as I said earlier raise your protein and fat intake, reduce the carbs and think about what carbs you eat and when you eat them. For say four weeks keep your overall calorie intake the same. See what the results are.

I don't know how much cardio you do but if it's for too long and too intense then you will hit muscle instead of fat. You can protect yourself by consuming whey protein before and after but for fat burning the sessions should be short and intense. If you get off the treadmill or bike with legs like jelly then that is to much. Don't turn it into endurance. The body does not like it. Sprinters keep muscle. Distance runners do not.

I'm off to the gym.[/QUOTE]I agree stay away from the trans fat, but polyunsaturated sources like fish oil, walnuts and flax are fine. Also breakfast is when you want to eat carbs. And not eating carbs after (fill in the blank) is a nutrition myth. I eat carbs all the time at night. It all comes down to your daily calories whether you lose fat or not.

After looking @ your profile pic , you look like you're holding water and have lots of loose skin in the lower abs.

Several issues
1. Stomach exercises. I've found that most are ineffective. Crunches seem to only be effective for me when I do 2,000 a day... Contracting the abdominals is futile when trying to reduce subcutaneous fat deposits in that area. Visible abs are a function of water retention, skin thickness, and body fat %
Speaking of water retention , I would drop the creatine. Oral Glutamine has been shown to be basically uselsss. I would drop both

2. I don't understand why your calories are below 2000. Up the protein as one guy said 250g and with these macros it would be 250g protein. A 50/20/30 or 50/30/20 Protein/Carb/Fat sounds about right and the fats either coconut or unsaturated fats. Whole food fats such as peanuts , tree nuts , 100% natural almond or cashew butter fish fats from oils and fillet's are good. The Publix in the shopping center w/Arlington South Gold's Gym sells plain unsalted sunflower kernels. I liked those. Anyway, The carbs should be almost exclusively complex coming from whole food sources. In fact you should try to stay away from all processed foods except supps which you trust

3. All the Gold's gym's in the area have Precour machines. Steady state cardio is the best for targeting fat and tightening skin. I would try at least 30 minutes a day 4x a week. I have to sit on a bike or something like 60+ minutes as It takes alot for me to lose fat. This style for me doesn't cause crazy weight loss , but it does target the fat and I get some bounce in my legs. It should help you lose inches in the mid section.

*edit*
If you wanna down a shot glass of olive oil or other vegetable oil that will work too. Some people get their fats this way. I don't do that anymore as most oils don't taste well to me. I use coconut oil whenever pan frying anything and eat fish fillet to get Omega 3's
*edit*

[QUOTE=DCGuy64;108590191I have been sitting on an exercise bike for over 60 minutes 5x a week. ]Hi. I've been working out seriously since 2001, and like many other guys out there, I'm on the elusive quest for a six-pack. After eating 1600 cal/day and working out 5 days a week (sometimes 6) for 3 years, I got 4 of my abs to show. In three years since then, I STILL can't get the lower abs to pop. I've tried just about everything: all of the ab exercises, working abs in combination with other exercises, stomach vacuums, cutting down on fat intake, etc. I eat 6 meals a day, drink loads of water, get about 140g of protein, shakes before/after W/O, supplement with creatine and glutamine, basically doing all of the right stuff. What's the deal with the lower abs not showing? I've even used ab gel that's supposed to tighten up the skin. My brother-in-law insists it's because I'm over 40. Please help me prove him wrong! Any suggestions gratefully received![/QUOTE]

First of all by looking at your progress lics, congrats on what you have achieved already!

are you always on a low carb diet?
You may need to change your diet up a bit. 140 grams of protein a day is good. How many carbs a day? If they are low every day then your body might be in "Fat restore mode". You may need to add a couple days eating a potato or a cup of rice with each of your six meals for two days. Also you need to not do cardio on these days. This brings me to the next question what cardio and how much do you do?

I'm not a big fan of saturated fats due to the fact that saturated fats generally come from animal fats or processed foods that you should be either eating in heavy moderation or avoiding anyway. If you want beef , you can eat beef top round which is 96-98% lean and go cheap at the same time. The only saturated fat I would go out of my way to eat is coconut. I see no health benefits from eating animal fats over coconut or plant fats. The 2 I mentioned should help you shed stored body fat.

[QUOTE=Veedub;108640191]

Fats? You must eat saturated fat. It's that simple. Don't do low fat. As I said before you must eat fat to burn fat and saturated metabolises the best. Stay away from any trans and polyunsaturated fats. Mono unsaturated fat such as in olive oil is good. Saturated fat does more than provide you system with its preferred choice of fuel as it also protects you from free radicals and any polyunsaturated fat in your diet.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=dkf10425;108710411]I agree stay away from the trans fat, but polyunsaturated sources like fish oil, walnuts and flax are fine. Also breakfast is when you want to eat carbs. And not eating carbs after (fill in the blank) is a nutrition myth. I eat carbs all the time at night. It all comes down to your daily calories whether you lose fat or not.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm. Polyunsaturated fat is a no go area regardless of where it comes from. It is an immune system suppressant and is carcinogenic. The culprit is linoleic acid (NOT saturated animal fate derived CLA which is required). However saturated animal fat can help protect against the harmful effects of polyunsaturated fats. Most fats found in clogged arteries are polyunsaturated. I have references for studies in this area if anyone is interested but I'd rather not have to type them all in. ;-)

With regards to carbs why eat them at all? They are empty calories with no nutritional benefit whatsoever. You body will not burn multiple fuel sources at the same time. If you eat carbs then the glycogen from those carbs will be used for spiked energy before your body either turns to stored fat or your hard earned muscle depending on what you are doing at the time the glycogen runs out. You might be hitting the wall or falling a sleep at your desk as a result of the blood sugar response.

Not eating carbs later in the day is nothing to do with nutrition in that sense but rather the evening is when typically we are less active. If I have carbs in my system it is only ever on a gym day or on a day when I'll be karate training. On a rest day I won't touch carbs.

You are correct about calories in that too many and you will gain fat. That's the simple energy equation at work. However the worst way to eat too many calories is on a diet low in fat and protein and high in carbs. This sort of diet promotes a break down in the system and a whole host of ailments to go with it.

Need sleep. It's midnight here. Have a good day all.

LOL , I have read that alot of the cancer causing issue with polyunsaturated fats were rat studies....
[url]http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cgi/reprint/41/9_Part_2/3695.pdf[/url]
The polyunsaturated fats are not proven carcinogens , but they MAY "promote" carcinogenesis. There's a huge difference in those 2 statements.
It means that it is not known whether they cause cancer or not. There are other studies stating otherwise.
The below is also 20+ year old science

Thanks to everyone who has posted responses to my original posting.
I really appreciate this. People have taken time to read about my situation and offer tremendous advice, and it's all for free. :-)
Having said that, I'm more confused than ever. Let me state at the outset that I am NOT on a low-calorie, low-carb diet anymore. I only did the 1600 cal/day thing from 2001-2004 so I could lose weight (which I did, about 35 lbs overall). After that, I started eating more normally, but concentrating on eating "clean," i.e. no junk food, eating lean animal proteins, drinking lots of water, cutting down on alcohol, etc. My diet now is essentially the Abs Diet, which focuses on lean meats, lots of veggies, slow-burning carbs like bagels, oatmeal, etc. which don't cause huge glycemic changes, and so on. While I do strive for 140g protein daily, I don't measure calories consumed, per se.
In terms of cardio, I usually do the treadmill for 30 minutes once a week, alternating between walking slowly, walking fast, and jogging. Occasionally (as in a few times a month) I may hit the elliptical trainer for 30 minutes, which burns about 400 calories. I love the idea of doing a Precor machine in principle, but because I lift weights and want to gain muscle, I worry about the catabolic effects of cardio like that. It baffles me that after 6 years of doing cardio, eating healthy, and working the abs, I still have this layer of either fat or loose skin covering the lower abs. I've even considered liposuction or other fat-loss cosmetic surgery, because to have a goal and never seem to attain it is extremely frustrating. So, what's the consensus on carbs vs. no-carbs, fats vs. no fats? I hear some conflicting information out there. Given my size and weight, what is a good target caloric intake on a daily basis? I hear all the time that if you want to get big, you have to eat, but how much is too much? I tried going to a 2500 cal/day diet once, and I almost got sick from eating that much. I was thinking more along the lines of 2000-2200 for me. But the MAIN thing is getting those lower abs to show. That is the ONE goal I absolutely must attain!

One thing I also wanted to mention is that talking to a doctor about this has gotten me nowhere. When I mention wanting to have a sixpack, the doctors I've spoken with invariably say something like "why, you're in fine shape" or "forget it; you're over 35," or "anything less than 15% bodyfat is dangerous." Now, I'm not trying to slam physicians here, but who teaches them to say things like that? Why do I see photos of regular guys on this site who are 45 and have amazing abs? Is it all just genetics? How can I have a bodyfat percentage of 9 and still have a layer of fat? Lastly, I've heard that there's no way to actually target fat loss, that you have to eat right and do cardio, then let the body burn the fat at its own pace, and from wherever it wants. If that's true, what good is it to try a bike or some other machine if the body won't necessarily eliminate the fat where I want it to?

[QUOTE=ntrllftr;108729681]First of all by looking at your progress lics, congrats on what you have achieved already!

THANK YOU!

are you always on a low carb diet? No, I'm not on one now.

You may need to change your diet up a bit. 140 grams of protein a day is good. How many carbs a day? NOT SURE
If they are low every day then your body might be in "Fat restore mode". You may need to add a couple days eating a potato or a cup of rice with each of your six meals for two days. Also you need to not do cardio on these days. This brings me to the next question what cardio and how much do you do?[/QUOTE]
30 MINS ON TREADMILL ONCE A WEEK

What do your ab workouts look like. Diet will be the key to getting rid of that last little ring anound the middle but frankly looking at your progress pics... there isn't enough fat there to cover well develped muscle. I would venture that you aren't hitting the lower abs as hard as you should be. I could be way wrong here but I would look to some development in this area as your upper abs show a lot more size and couldn't be covered by the amount of fat I see lower down even if the fat was over them instead.

Thanks for your message. When I slap the skin covering my lower abs, I get that typical jiggly wave effect which could be either fat or loose skin (my wife thinks it's just skin) It's always been like that, whether my BF was 15% or 8%. When I feel the abs below, they feel hard as a rock. Occasionally, like this morning, when I look down I see a little ridge forming under the skin indicating the lower abs, but when I look in the mirror, you just see skin, no ridge. :-(

Typically, this is what I do for abs:
1. Crunches
2. Oblique crunches
3. Planks/bridges
4. Side bridges
5. Oblique V-ups
6. Crunches on exercise ball
7. Weighted crunches
8. Woodchoppers with medicine ball
9. Ab crunches on a machine (seated, pulling weight down over my head)
10. Cable crunches (sitting on the floor, using rope attachment)

Other exercises I don't know the names of: :-)
1. Lying down on an exercise mat and passing a Swiss ball back and forth between my legs and my arms and back again.
2. Hands down in push-up position, feet on Swiss ball, pulling ball towards my chest and back again.

The only kind of abs workouts I don't use (for lack of equipment) are hanging leg raises and raises with a twist.
If you have any suggestions that are lower-abs specific, please let me know!
My wife and I are planning to buy some equipment for our home gym soon, and hanging raises are one of the things I'm interested in doing.

[QUOTE=DCGuy64;108920231]Thanks to everyone who has posted responses to my original posting.
I really appreciate this. People have taken time to read about my situation and offer tremendous advice, and it's all for free. :-)
Having said that, I'm more confused than ever. Let me state at the outset that I am NOT on a low-calorie, low-carb diet anymore. I only did the 1600 cal/day thing from 2001-2004 so I could lose weight (which I did, about 35 lbs overall). After that, I started eating more normally, but concentrating on eating "clean," i.e. no junk food, eating lean animal proteins, drinking lots of water, cutting down on alcohol, etc. My diet now is essentially the Abs Diet, which focuses on lean meats, lots of veggies, slow-burning carbs like bagels, oatmeal, etc. which don't cause huge glycemic changes, and so on. While I do strive for 140g protein daily, I don't measure calories consumed, per se.
In terms of cardio, I usually do the treadmill for 30 minutes once a week, alternating between walking slowly, walking fast, and jogging. Occasionally (as in a few times a month) I may hit the elliptical trainer for 30 minutes, which burns about 400 calories. I love the idea of doing a Precor machine in principle, but because I lift weights and want to gain muscle, I worry about the catabolic effects of cardio like that. It baffles me that after 6 years of doing cardio, eating healthy, and working the abs, I still have this layer of either fat or loose skin covering the lower abs. I've even considered liposuction or other fat-loss cosmetic surgery, because to have a goal and never seem to attain it is extremely frustrating. So, what's the consensus on carbs vs. no-carbs, fats vs. no fats? I hear some conflicting information out there. Given my size and weight, what is a good target caloric intake on a daily basis? I hear all the time that if you want to get big, you have to eat, but how much is too much? I tried going to a 2500 cal/day diet once, and I almost got sick from eating that much. I was thinking more along the lines of 2000-2200 for me. But the MAIN thing is getting those lower abs to show. That is the ONE goal I absolutely must attain![/QUOTE]


Ok you say it right in here. You lost 35 pounds on your low carb diet. You changed your diet and been stuck. you do the math here. ;)

If you are doing cardio only once a week YOU WILL NEVER GET THE LOWER ABS TO SHOW PERIOD. 5 times a week with 35-40 minute sessions. You need to ditch the bagel for sure.

You are doing WAY too many ab excercises. I do them 3 -4 times a week about 100 - 120 reps thats it.

In conclusion I would say to get back on the old diet, do more cardio and STAY AWAY FROM THAT BAGEL! ;)

Hi, and thanks again for your response/suggestions. First, I don't do all of those ab exercises all of the time. Someone just asked me what exercises I do, and those are the ones. I usually do only 4-5 exercises before lifting weights. Second, I find that bagels offer slow-burning carbs, which give me energy without making me bottom out on energy, which is what happens if I eat cold cereal, fruit, etc. which is high in sugar (even natural sugar tends to burn off quickly, my sugar level drops, then I'm starving again). This doesn't happen with oatmeal, bagels, etc. Also, I stopped doing the very low-cal diet because I was losing muscle mass. I went from 155 lbs down to 127 at one point, waist went from 34" to almost 27". Sure, I was lean, but too thin, and again, those lower abs still didn't show. What do you recommend I eat, instead of bagels? Lastly, if I go back to a low-calorie diet, I'll end up slowing my metabolism and it'll be harder to lose that fat... What's a guy to do?