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I've been 5x5ing for the last 15 months and have made some great progress.
Now, I know you shouldn't change a program when still making progress and I might not change yet.
Feeling a bit stale at the moment, have just started a week off and this might be enough to remove the staleness and have me do more 5x5.
I have been reading up on Wendler's 5 3 1 as a possible routine if I do take a break from 5x5.
I'm interested in people's thoughts, particularly those who have tried the program.
Although I like how the program is laid out, personally I didn't benefit from it. In fact, I actually lost strength on it. Many people gain terrifically on it, but I am one who did not.
[QUOTE=Karl_Hungus;670225311]Although I like how the program is laid out, personally I didn't benefit from it. In fact, I actually lost strength on it. Many people gain terrifically on it, but I am one who did not.[/QUOTE]
Hey Karl, thanks for your input.
What routines did you do before and after 5 3 1?
[QUOTE=alkell;670226991]Hey Karl, thanks for your input.
What routines did you do before and after 5 3 1?[/QUOTE]
I'd actually never done a routine created by somebody else before. I've always created my own routine. The thing is, my routine prior to 5/3/1 was actually very similar to 5/3/1, although the rep ranges were slightly different and the percentages were a little different. That might be why I didn't experience much of a boost from 5/3/1.
I wouldn't say it was a total waste for me though ... I pick up a few things that I liked. Particularly the resets once rep ranges couldn't be met. I previously hadn't been very systematic about that ... but, since my foray into 5/3/1. I added it into my old routine.
One thing I really couldn't get used to in 5/3/1 was the percentages. I found that the percentages were too low to really prepare me for the final heavy set. I always did better with higher percentages that would get me neurologically primed for the heavy 3rd set.
[QUOTE=Karl_Hungus;670230721] I always did better with higher percentages that would get me neurologically primed for the heavy 3rd set.[/QUOTE]
That's interesting, I've found this with 5x5 too, sometimes a higher weight on the proceeding sets of a ramped set better prepared me for a PR on the last set (as compared to lighter weights on the ramping sets)
I was doing Wendler's 5-3-1 for 5 months this year. My squat and dead improved greatly. I stalled on militaries, but more because of my bad shoulder and the fact that I suck at militaries than there was anything wrong with the program.
[QUOTE=discdoggie;670234691]I was doing Wendler's 5-3-1 for 5 months this year. My squat and dead improved greatly. I stalled on militaries, but more because of my bad shoulder and the fact that I suck at militaries than there was anything wrong with the program.[/QUOTE]
Did you stop because of the dicky shoulder or for some other reason?
[QUOTE=alkell;670236981]Did you stop because of the dicky shoulder or for some other reason?[/QUOTE]
Well, like I said, I was stalling on militaries and that was pissing me off. The frustration was taking the joy out of lifting, so I just needed something new and fresh.
I do believe I owe my gains in squat and dead to 5-3-1, though.
My training buddy and I do 5/3/1 for our routines. We both focus on powerlifting vs BB. It like it VERY much for squat and deads, its decent for shoulder and bench.
[QUOTE=lanolar;670258061]My training buddy and I do 5/3/1 for our routines. We both focus on powerlifting vs BB. It like it VERY much for squat and deads, its decent for shoulder and bench.[/QUOTE]
How long have you been doing it for?
[QUOTE=lanolar;670258061]My training buddy and I do 5/3/1 for our routines. We both focus on powerlifting vs BB. It like it VERY much for squat and deads, its decent for shoulder and bench.[/QUOTE]
After 5x5ing for 15 months I really believe part of a good bbing routine includes attention to strength
I do Wendler. I really, really like it. Stronglifts 5x5 just destroyed me eventually. I was actually thinking today that I've damn near reached zen status with Wendler and am really happy with it.
I don't think it would be useful to you, but here's my log:
[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=125529023&page=7[/url]
[QUOTE=db_ggmm;670280741]I do Wendler. I really, really like it. Stronglifts 5x5 just destroyed me eventually. I was actually thinking today that I've damn near reached zen status with Wendler and am really happy with it.
I don't think it would be useful to you, but here's my log:
[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=125529023&page=7[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks for the input and the link to your journal. Your layout and recording of you ORM's for progress is really good.
In the workout programs forum check out the 1st thread for GST (Growth Stimulous Training)...It may be something that would be a nice change if your getting bored.
Hey Al. I read the e-book and think its an excellent program. It would fit in great with your style lifting. I think I'm going to give it a run to get my strength back up on the big four lifts.
I just started It so I have nothing to add as far as impressions. One thing to say is the book was worth the read.
Here's the spreadsheet I'm using (I'm a huge log fan) which does all the work complete with graphs for you for a years worth of 5/3/1 at 4 days a week.
Props and credit to poteto for making it. The links are in his sig.
[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=611524943&postcount=1[/url]
.xlsx: [url]https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bzp91a0KpSllMTQ4MTQ5YmUtODM0Ni00NTc4LThhY2UtMDk2MGJlYjdhNDA5&hl=en[/url]
.xls: [url]https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bzp91a0KpSllYjQyNTdiOTYtOGVhZi00YzI3LTg1MTAtYmZmNDViZTc2YzYw&hl=en[/url]
I prefer the Juggernaut template the best but I use the assistance template from 5/3/1
[QUOTE=stackums;670314361]In the workout programs forum check out the 1st thread for GST (Growth Stimulous Training)...It may be something that would be a nice change if your getting bored.[/QUOTE]
Had a quick look, will need to have a better look, there's a bit to it. Thanks.
[QUOTE=baker;670328341]Hey Al. I read the e-book and think its an excellent program. It would fit in great with your style lifting. I think I'm going to give it a run to get my strength back up on the big four lifts.[/QUOTE]
Hey Baker, it is a great read even if I don't do the program!
Look forward to following along with you mate if you give it a try, I'll keep an eye on your journal
[QUOTE=Xler8d;670336061]I just started It so I have nothing to add as far as impressions. One thing to say is the book was worth the read.
Here's the spreadsheet I'm using (I'm a huge log fan) which does all the work complete with graphs for you for a years worth of 5/3/1 at 4 days a week.
Props and credit to poteto for making it. The links are in his sig.
[url]http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=611524943&postcount=1[/url]
.xlsx: [url]https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bzp91a0KpSllMTQ4MTQ5YmUtODM0Ni00NTc4LThhY2UtMDk2MGJlYjdhNDA5&hl=en[/url]
.xls: [url]https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bzp91a0KpSllYjQyNTdiOTYtOGVhZi00YzI3LTg1MTAtYmZmNDViZTc2YzYw&hl=en[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks. The spreadsheets look really good, I can get them to view on google, but can't get them to download, says it can find them or something :(
[QUOTE=JRT6;670337261]I prefer the Juggernaut template the best but I use the assistance template from 5/3/1[/QUOTE]
What's the Juggernaut template????
I did it for about a year. Saw some good gains in all of the big 3 lifts, but didn't like the deloads...always felt like I wasn't doing enough.
Back to letting things progress more organically for the time being, may pick up and do a few waves over the summer after baseball season ends.
Nice thing about GST is there really is no reason to deload. Its set up in a way that when followed correctly you should be hitting everything nicely w/out overtraining. The ebook is great and Ryan (the creator of the program) will help you set up and tweak your program based on your individual goals ;)
I'm a 5/3/1 follower. Been doing it more or less for over a year. The Juggernaut system is the 5/3/1 wrapped up a bit different. Smith is an admitted Wendler disciple but he is originally a shot putt guy and that shows in the program. Once my season is over in September I'm going to work on the Juggernaut version since throwing is the base of most events I do.
My own take on the 5/3/1 is that you have to commit to it for a long period. It is not designed to have you make gains in 1 or 2 or even 3 cycles. The gains come over time. I measured progress in 2 ways. First I set up 10, 5, 3 and 1 rep maxes in each lift. At first I was breaking the 10 records then as it progressed the 5's, 3's etc. Another way I measured was to figure out the 1 rep max that was generated from each of the last sets. That gave me a value for the work of that set. Tack that from cycle to cycle and you can see it increase. I think it is a great program but not for someone expecting immediate gains in their 1 rep maxes.
[QUOTE=alkell;670222351]I've been 5x5ing for the last 15 months and have made some great progress.
Now, I know you shouldn't change a program when still making progress and I might not change yet.
Feeling a bit stale at the moment, have just started a week off and this might be enough to remove the staleness and have me do more 5x5.
I have been reading up on Wendler's 5 3 1 as a possible routine if I do take a break from 5x5.
I'm interested in people's thoughts, particularly those who have tried the program.[/QUOTE]
My strength routine is 5-4-3 for the Bench Press, Full Squat, and Deadlift. I'm conditioning my CNS (central nervous system) so when I return to my normal 6-8 reps for compound exercises I can use heavier weights. One rep sets may be too risky for injuries.
Hey Al! Got tired of setting PR's all the time with periodized 5x5 that you want to do it with another program now? :)
I just finished running a 5-3-1 cycle from last October until three weeks ago. Overall, I am very positive about it. I'll just share a few random observations, particularly compared to when I did a 5x5, although it was the linear version.
As Gnomus said, this was more designed to be a long-term method of training. You're only increasing your estimated 1RM every four weeks, so one needs to go in with some patience and dedication to give it time.
The upside for me was joint and tendon health. Wrists and other joints have always seemed to be the primary limiting factor for me staying with a strength training program, and this worked better than any other to keep them on pace.
As written, the plan feels more flexible and was just more fun all around for me. I like that every last set is open to how ever many reps you can do. Some days are better than other, and you may only get your target reps, or you may far surpass them.
Perhaps it's a bit premature to say, but I believe the strength and muscle gains feel more permanent. Hard to explain, but with other strength training programs I felt like I started losing my progress rather soon after stopping the program.
I plan to return to this after the summer and will probably run it a good 7-8 months again. I made solid, steady gains and really enjoyed it. The only minor alteration I made was doing three sets on most assistance exercises (rather than 5) and using it to focus on aesthetic weaknesses more than strength based ones.
Good luck on your decision, I'm sure you'll do great with whatever you choose!
[QUOTE=ectoBgone;670706901]Hey Al! Got tired of setting PR's all the time with periodized 5x5 that you want to do it with another program now? :)
I just finished running a 5-3-1 cycle from last October until three weeks ago. Overall, I am very positive about it. I'll just share a few random observations, particularly compared to when I did a 5x5, although it was the linear version.
As Gnomus said, this was more designed to be a long-term method of training. You're only increasing your estimated 1RM every four weeks, so one needs to go in with some patience and dedication to give it time.
The upside for me was joint and tendon health. Wrists and other joints have always seemed to be the primary limiting factor for me staying with a strength training program, and this worked better than any other to keep them on pace.
As written, the plan feels more flexible and was just more fun all around for me. I like that every last set is open to how ever many reps you can do. Some days are better than other, and you may only get your target reps, or you may far surpass them.
Perhaps it's a bit premature to say, but I believe the strength and muscle gains feel more permanent. Hard to explain, but with other strength training programs I felt like I started losing my progress rather soon after stopping the program.
I plan to return to this after the summer and will probably run it a good 7-8 months again. I made solid, steady gains and really enjoyed it. The only minor alteration I made was doing three sets on most assistance exercises (rather than 5) and using it to focus on aesthetic weaknesses more than strength based ones.
Good luck on your decision, I'm sure you'll do great with whatever you choose![/QUOTE]
Who is this guy? :D :D
[QUOTE=alkell;670410171]
What's the Juggernaut template????[/QUOTE]
I can't really go into detail w/o giving the program away but it's basically a linear progression like 5/3/1 but it has more mini cycles and adherence to the main lifts are more important.
[QUOTE=snoack;670577211]I did it for about a year. Saw some good gains in all of the big 3 lifts, but didn't like the deloads...always felt like I wasn't doing enough.
Back to letting things progress more organically for the time being, may pick up and do a few waves over the summer after baseball season ends.[/QUOTE]
Thanks!
[QUOTE=stackums;670589171]Nice thing about GST is there really is no reason to deload. Its set up in a way that when followed correctly you should be hitting everything nicely w/out overtraining. The ebook is great and Ryan (the creator of the program) will help you set up and tweak your program based on your individual goals ;)[/QUOTE]
:) I'll keep that in mind.
[QUOTE=GnomusMaximus;670681901]I'm a 5/3/1 follower. Been doing it more or less for over a year. The Juggernaut system is the 5/3/1 wrapped up a bit different. Smith is an admitted Wendler disciple but he is originally a shot putt guy and that shows in the program. Once my season is over in September I'm going to work on the Juggernaut version since throwing is the base of most events I do.
My own take on the 5/3/1 is that you have to commit to it for a long period. It is not designed to have you make gains in 1 or 2 or even 3 cycles. The gains come over time. I measured progress in 2 ways. First I set up 10, 5, 3 and 1 rep maxes in each lift. At first I was breaking the 10 records then as it progressed the 5's, 3's etc. Another way I measured was to figure out the 1 rep max that was generated from each of the last sets. That gave me a value for the work of that set. Tack that from cycle to cycle and you can see it increase. I think it is a great program but not for someone expecting immediate gains in their 1 rep maxes.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Gnomus, a very informative post.
I don't have a problem with being patient for gains, I think that is the only way to make real gains in muscle/ strength and staying injury free.
[QUOTE=JerryB;670700111]My strength routine is 5-4-3 for the Bench Press, Full Squat, and Deadlift. I'm conditioning my CNS (central nervous system) so when I return to my normal 6-8 reps for compound exercises I can use heavier weights. One rep sets may be too risky for injuries.[/QUOTE]
That sounds like a good plan too. I can understand yor concern on the one reppers, it is definately something I've considered about this program.
[QUOTE=ectoBgone;670706901]Hey Al! Got tired of setting PR's all the time with periodized 5x5 that you want to do it with another program now? :)
I just finished running a 5-3-1 cycle from last October until three weeks ago. Overall, I am very positive about it. I'll just share a few random observations, particularly compared to when I did a 5x5, although it was the linear version.
As Gnomus said, this was more designed to be a long-term method of training. You're only increasing your estimated 1RM every four weeks, so one needs to go in with some patience and dedication to give it time.
The upside for me was joint and tendon health. Wrists and other joints have always seemed to be the primary limiting factor for me staying with a strength training program, and this worked better than any other to keep them on pace.
As written, the plan feels more flexible and was just more fun all around for me. I like that every last set is open to how ever many reps you can do. Some days are better than other, and you may only get your target reps, or you may far surpass them.
Perhaps it's a bit premature to say, but I believe the strength and muscle gains feel more permanent. Hard to explain, but with other strength training programs I felt like I started losing my progress rather soon after stopping the program.
I plan to return to this after the summer and will probably run it a good 7-8 months again. I made solid, steady gains and really enjoyed it. The only minor alteration I made was doing three sets on most assistance exercises (rather than 5) and using it to focus on aesthetic weaknesses more than strength based ones.
Good luck on your decision, I'm sure you'll do great with whatever you choose![/QUOTE]
Hey Jason, thanks very much for your informative post. Hope life is treating you well.
I can relate to the change to 3 sets, that is something that I thought as well, 5 x 10 might be a bit much for me.
Not sick of setting PR's mate :) I know you shouldn't change a program when it is working, it's just after 15 months it feels a bit stale. I might still stick with 5x5 but if I change I'm thinking 5 3 1 might be for me.
[QUOTE=bustasinclair;670720851]Who is this guy? :D :D[/QUOTE]
Ha ha, we've flushed him out :D
[QUOTE=JRT6;670953701]I can't really go into detail w/o giving the program away but it's basically a linear progression like 5/3/1 but it has more mini cycles and adherence to the main lifts are more important.[/QUOTE]
Ok, thanks
In all honesty, I dont see a loss any which you change things up so long as you keep working out. I did Ironman triathlons, crossfit, power lifting, etc, etc. I think that keeping your body and mind fit is ultimate goal. Eat a healthy diet and the strength training gains will come.
That said, I started 5-3-1 this month with a co-worker. Im on week 3. Its different from many other workout types. But I read its very effective so long as you are consistent. I like the idea of working the big muscles. The assistants(is that what he calls them), pullups, dips, good mornings, etc. also help you get stronger. The recovery week is essential. Its a periodization structure. Folks running marathons, long-distance triathlons must use this routine philosophy. Going hard all the time is bound to weaken your body and open you up to injury.
there's a gym right across the street from my work. I go in there, pump out on the plan and get out. I dont have time to waste. I started Judo last Summer. I came into it right out of my crossfit workouts. lots of the guys in the dojo said I was very strong (or maybe I was just using too much strength over technique). Its probably a mixture of both. Anyhow, I dont have today that same all body strength that comes from crossfit. Crossfit didnt give me huge power lifting strength. It gave me strength throughout my body. I couldnt bench 200#, but I could go hard - anabolic workouts for 25min+. That's freaking hard.
My schedule has changed, so I decided to go 5-3-1 on my own. I'm fine with it so far. Its a four day / week cycle, one hour each....focused effort....recovery week...how can you go wrong?