What happend to the Wide Grip Rear Pulldowns?

OK, so I having finally decided to come out of my weight room in the basement and join one of these mega Gold's Gym. AND, I am wondering around today wanting to do Wide Grip Pulldowns behind the neck, and notice that every single pulldown station has a Warning or Danger sticker about not bringing the bar or handles behind your head?

The gym has about 15 different pulldown stations, half of them are hooked up to a cable crossover machine, the other half are either a cable system, or leverage and they all have this warning sticker.

When did Rear Pulldowns get banned in the gym? I have always like them because they seem to isolate the muscles better than Front Pulldowns and you can't cheat like you can with the front.


I must have watched over 50 different people hit those pulldown machines today as I worked out, and not a single one of them went behind the neck?

They get a bad rep mainly due them putting the rotator cuff in a bio-mechanically bad position. Some guys say that if you use relatively light weight and only go down halfway i.e. to the middle of the back of your head--front double biceps pose territory--you should be okay. But a lot of guys don't do that and over time, it may damage the rotators. Not for everyone of course, but for some. Hence, the warning not to do them.

Personally, I do chins or pulldowns to the front. Hits my lats better and it's safer--for me. JMO...

just cause there is a warning on the newer equipment doesnt mean you cant do it... in fact i use just about every peice of equipment HOW I WANT. screw the warning if something works for you then i say do it.

BTW Hammerstrength equipment still makes behind the neck machines, my gym has two : iso pull downs and the iso rear military press they are not brand new by any means but they say right on them "behind the neck"

[QUOTE=GuyJin;575196171]They get a bad rep mainly due them putting the rotator cuff in a bio-mechanically bad position. Some guys say that if you use relatively light weight and only go down halfway i.e. to the middle of the back of your head--front double biceps pose territory--you should be okay. But a lot of guys don't do that and over time, it may damage the rotators. Not for everyone of course, but for some. Hence, the warning not to do them.

Personally, I do chins or pulldowns to the front. Hits my lats better and it's safer--for me. JMO...[/QUOTE]

^^ This. Behind the neck won't provide you with benefits that going in front of the neck won't.

think they went the same way as the Shoulder Presses behind the neck....I used to like the old press behind neck, but dont do them now cos of the warnings....just in case!

There are also warnings about Upright Rows, but I do those, as I like them & have had no issues to date! :$

Great vid and explantion here by Jim Stoppanni. I've had a lot of shoulder probs over the years from football, and lifting, especially press behind the neck. I find that I can do pulldowns behind the neck occassionally. The advice in the video is good I think.

[url]http://www.muscleandfitness.com/raw_behind_the_neck_pulldown/videos/225[/url]

not many people perform rear pulldowns due to being an unnatural movement.
puts way to much stress on rotator cuff. much better to perform front pulldowns.

Even though yes most people avoid them for good reason, what kind of lame gym has warnings all over their equipment?

They may as well chain the 100-lb plates to the rack and post a sign saying "Do Not Lift" so nobody hurts themselves.

I still like throwing them in there on volume/ light days. It just forces me to keep my body as vertical as possible. I perform them as strict as possible and don't lower past my ears.

I still do them from time to time. I just don't take the bar down very far and don't use heavy weight.
When I was younger, they were a staple in my back routine..... and behind the head shoulder press was my main shoulder press.....used to go real heavy. I can't believe I'm still alive:cool:

Just like with any lift, be smart and know your body's limits.

[QUOTE=Taur;575195441]OK, so I having finally decided to come out of my weight room in the basement and join one of these mega Gold's Gym. AND, I am wondering around today wanting to do Wide Grip Pulldowns behind the neck, and notice that every single pulldown station has a Warning or Danger sticker about not bringing the bar or handles behind your head?

The gym has about 15 different pulldown stations, half of them are hooked up to a cable crossover machine, the other half are either a cable system, or leverage and they all have this warning sticker.

When did Rear Pulldowns get banned in the gym? I have always like them because they seem to isolate the muscles better than Front Pulldowns and you can't cheat like you can with the front.


I must have watched over 50 different people hit those pulldown machines today as I worked out, and not a single one of them went behind the neck?[/QUOTE]

They are perfectly fine if you use your hands as hooks(2-3 fingers) and contract your back muscles to move the weight.

[QUOTE=Karl_Hungus;575197291] Behind the neck won't provide you with benefits that going in front of the neck won't.[/QUOTE]

^^^^This.

The benefit/risk ratio isn't good. Why risk an RC injury for no additional benefit?

[QUOTE=Taur;575195441]OK, so I having finally decided to come out of my weight room in the basement and join one of these mega Gold's Gym. AND, I am wondering around today wanting to do Wide Grip Pulldowns behind the neck, and notice that every single pulldown station has a Warning or Danger sticker about not bringing the bar or handles behind your head?

The gym has about 15 different pulldown stations, half of them are hooked up to a cable crossover machine, the other half are either a cable system, or leverage and they all have this warning sticker.

When did Rear Pulldowns get banned in the gym? I have always like them because they seem to isolate the muscles better than Front Pulldowns and you can't cheat like you can with the front.


I must have watched over 50 different people hit those pulldown machines today as I worked out, and not a single one of them went behind the neck?[/QUOTE]


I think the gym is concerned about possible claims by customers for injuries. The behind the neck pulldown for people like me who are flexibility challenged in the shoulders places too much stress on the Subscapularis, the front muscle of the rotator cuff group. The following website is a study of the two exercises:

[url]http://etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0000772/pugh_g.pdf[/url]

Their study favored the front pulldown for training the lats.
I have found another study with the same conclusions:

[url]http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2009/10000/Electromyographic_Analysis_of_Three_Different.17.aspx[/url]

The behind the neck pulldown is a compound exercise, but the pectoralis major contributes less to the movement than the front pulldown. If I want to isolate the lats in a pulldown exercise, I prefer the straight arm pulldown.

I not trying to tell you what exercises you should do…that’s your choice.
I have found studying the muscular system and the movements of the various muscle groups in an exercise has been a great benefit in my weight training. The internet has made that information easily available.

[QUOTE=Daio;575199931]
There are also warnings about Upright Rows, but I do those, as I like them & have had no issues to date! :$[/QUOTE]

OK, so are Upright Rows also off limits? It seems like this is another exercise that I am the only one doing at my gym.

This is why I posted in the over 35 forum, as these exercises, Rear Pulldowns and Upright Rows were staples in everyones routines growing up. I can't imagine throwing away both these exercises.


Getting back to Pulldowns, to me the exercise are completely different between front and behind. Going to the front has always seemed to be more like a Row than a pulldown.

Upright rows also get a bad rap, but if you do them with a wider--around shoulder-width--grip, then the danger of possible impingement on the RC's may be minimized. Other guys use dumbbells, as it allows your shoulders to move in a more natural way as opposed to being somewhat restricted by the bar. Maybe that's better--IDK. I've used d'bells for that movement in the past and never got a whole lot out of them; I prefer the barbell, and I don't go much over 115 pounds if I do the movement strictly. If I put leverage into it, I could do a lot more but that would defeat the purpose for me.

Again, not saying everyone will experience these problems with the behind-neck press/pulldown/upright row--just that the potential IMHO is greater. The bottom line for me is if it hurts or gives no benefit at all, then why do it?

As for the front pulldowns "seeming like a row" I don't get that. If you lean back excessively and yank backwards, yeah, okay, I could see it, but if you use a weight you can control, then all should be well. Again, JMO...

[QUOTE=Taur;575724751]

Getting back to Pulldowns, to me the exercise are completely different between front and behind. Going to the front has always seemed to be more like a Row than a pulldown.[/QUOTE]

The front pulldown is closer to the behind the neck pulldown than the bent row. The pulldowns emphasis the adduction action of the lats and rows emphasis the extension action of the lats.

Working my back is one of my favorites. Rows are better at developing the back for thickness and detail. The back is a larger group of muscles…the latissimus doris,teres major, teres minor, infraspinatas, rhomboids major, rhomoboids minor, and the trapezius. Rows enables the use of heavier weights to develop this group of muscles. A simple test is to try to pulldown the same maximum weight for the bent row. If one can then in most cases their back lacks thickness. Pulldowns are good exercises, but rows are the best for developing a broad and detailed back. I would never consider substituting front pulldowns for bent rows. They are not the same.

A few years ago I hurt my shoulder and had some professional help getting it back in shape.

Coincidentally with that, I asked the guy who was helping me with rehab exercises about not doing behind-the-neck presses and pulldowns anymore, and what he came up with was this: As long as you have enough shoulder flexibility to do a broomstick shoulder dislocation with a grip that is about a hands breadth wider than the one you use for a behind the neck pulldown and warm up the shoulders properly, it should not be a problem.

Incidentally, I came across this shoulder dislocation video using a rubber band:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNilld58tks&feature=fvw[/url]

[QUOTE=PeteB;575982271]A few years ago I hurt my shoulder and had some professional help getting it back in shape.

Coincidentally with that, I asked the guy who was helping me with rehab exercises about not doing behind-the-neck presses and pulldowns anymore, and what he came up with was this: As long as you have enough shoulder flexibility to do a broomstick shoulder dislocation with a grip that is about a hands breadth wider than the one you use for a behind the neck pulldown and warm up the shoulders properly, it should not be a problem.

Incidentally, I came across this shoulder dislocation video using a rubber band:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNilld58tks&feature=fvw[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks. That's reason I dropped behind the neck exercises...not that flexible. Plus rows are better for adding mass to the lats.
Pulldown are good for the V taper but rows are great for adding thickness...especially to the lower lats. Even if you are a 61 years old man.

[img]http://jerrybruton.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/rdb.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Taur;575195441]OK, so I having finally decided to come out of my weight room in the basement and join one of these mega Gold's Gym. AND, I am wondering around today wanting to do Wide Grip Pulldowns behind the neck, and notice that every single pulldown station has a Warning or Danger sticker about not bringing the bar or handles behind your head?

The gym has about 15 different pulldown stations, half of them are hooked up to a cable crossover machine, the other half are either a cable system, or leverage and they all have this warning sticker.

When did Rear Pulldowns get banned in the gym? I have always like them because they seem to isolate the muscles better than Front Pulldowns and you can't cheat like you can with the front.


I must have watched over 50 different people hit those pulldown machines today as I worked out, and not a single one of them went behind the neck?[/QUOTE]
You run a higher risk of injuring your rotator cuff as well as you run the risk of an impengment from doing should work behind the head.

Interesting post as I have alway's done the "behind the head" and like them. If pulling down in the front to the chin? or top of chest? What angle do you want your body positioned? Vertical or leaned back, 45*?

I have always included this exercise but with less weight then fronts. I have never had shoulder problems.

Nice subject. I still do" behind the neck" pulldowns, but will retrain my daughter to
do them from the front. She broke her collar bone when she was younger, so they should
be better for her.

I dont do behind the neck work because I dont want to (for various reasons). Certainly not because of a sticker on a machine.

If you have the flexibility the back the neck pulldown is an ok auxiliary back exercise. It not an exercise I would consider as a primary back exercise.

Do them more often then front pull downs, it's all individual based on what your goals are.

As far as what the gyms are doing, if they're so dam concerned about injuries they should hire people who can show a large % of their clientèle how to squat properly.

[QUOTE=JerryB;576076791]If you have the flexibility the back the neck pulldown is an ok auxiliary back exercise. It not an exercise I would consider as a primary back exercise.[/QUOTE]

I agree. I appreciate how you(JerryB) classify exercises. I believe this is one of the secrets to training Smart.

I donot mean to change the threads subject.

[QUOTE=glsfitness;576083171]I agree. I appreciate how you(JerryB) classify exercises. I believe this is one of the secrets to training Smart.

I donot mean to change the threads subject.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I have been weight training for a long time. Over 20 years and I am still learning.

[QUOTE=JerryB;576003991]
Pulldown are good for the V taper but rows are great for adding thickness...especially to the lower lats. Even if you are a 61 years old man.
[/QUOTE]I agree with that. And from the looks of that pic, it is working very well for you.

At the same time, I would say that for those who have been doing them without compromising the rotator cuff, just because someone made a new warning label is no reason to stop now... with all those new labels, every piece of gym equipment will look like a ladder pretty soon! :D

IMHO....rear pulldowns hit the back better than front. I do them all the time on my machine.

Back in the mid 50s in my garage with a home made lat machine we only did behind the necks --(Can't remember why that was true ) I do remember at a motel pool that had a chinning bar I did 20 strict behind the neck chins the summer of my sophomore year in college

At 20 years old the rotators were not a problem --but I was only 160 lbs at that time