MMA and Bodybuilding

Hi there,

I practice Mixed Martial Arts and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I had a couple questions I was hoping you guys could help answer. I have learned a lot of good things from this forum, but wanted to clarify these just to be sure.

1. What is the difference between lifting for bodybuilding and lifting for strength training?

2. I want to increase my strength and look good via bodybuilding, what type of workout program should I follow?

3. I am 5'8" 200 with about 20% bf, assuming I cut down to the low teens bf %, and bulk up to say.. 230, is it true I will lose a lot of flexibility and endurance? I assume that more muscle mass would mean my heart has to work harder and so I would not be able to last as long in a fight as a taller guy could with the same weight.

4. True or False on these Creatine myths?
a. Muscles develop too quickly for the tendons and heart to keep up.
b. Once you stop using it you "deflate" very quickly
c. It is easy to get dehydrated quickly while using Creatine.
d. You can go longer in a given exercise before fatigue sets in because it helps supply your muscles with more energy.

5. I do a lot of conditioning, mostly explosive short duration exercises repeated many times over, and alternated with other similar exercises. Why is it I can run for an hour on a treadmill no problem, but these conditioning exercises kick my ass? What is the "scientific" difference between the way your body uses energy for long distance running vs short burst running type exercises?

Thank you for any help!

1. One is done for appearance the other to assist you in translating speed and power in your chosen sport. Squats, dead lifts, bench, pull ups, power cleans, snatches, odd object work etc. I wouldn't waste too much time on tricep extensions and bicep curls.

2.You will look "what you do". You want to mix bodybuilding with heavy conditioning (from #5) which don't play well together. You will not see MMA fighters who look like Ronnie Coleman.

3.You need to understand the concept of "weight class". For the same weight the stronger guy has the advantage. Height doesn't really impact on outlasting.

4.Don't know. Never used supps. I'd be regurgitating on this one.

5.[url]http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm[/url] As a martial artist running for an hour is redundant, if you can do it it's done. Move on. Stick to 100m 200m and 400m type work for interval runs etc. This is as well as the fight specific work. Think in terms of the average length of a fight.

If you apply yourself, eat well and get strong your body will reflect your actions. If getting huge in body building is your goal then you have a tough row to hoe. You need to pick a priority.

I think you are in for a rough road trying to get big and train for MMA. They are almost completely opposite of each other.

At 5'8" and 230 lbs you are looking at being in the same weight class as people who are 6 feet tall. Unless your arms are so long that you can tie your shoes without bending over, they are going to work you over with stand up.

Plus, it will affect your ground game, because you really do need flexibility. That big you won't be able to scratch your own butt let alone pull some submissions.

I think you should take a step back and decide what it is you would rather do and put your energy and time into that.

Thank you for the info guys!

I know reach makes a big difference in standup fighting, but I also know fighters of my desired stature exist - jeff monson ( [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Monson[/url] ) 5'9" 247, black belt in BJJ and 27-8 record. A lot of my training partners are taller, so I get good practice and tactics like dip, step n slide, counter attack -> works well vs guys with longer reach.

Anyway I understand the potential problems for fighting at that weight class, my concern was really just the flexibility and stamina issues I might potentially have, hence the questions :)

Flexibility and stamina are something you can work on and come with time. I went from 255 to 205 while I've been training Kajukenbo and it make a huge difference in my flexibility and (especially) stamina.

I'm the tallest guy in my class 6'1" and when we spar I could just work my jab and never let them close, but I do just to practice the clench and take downs. We work angles and closing the distance so I know it can be done, but it is much easier with someone closer to your height.

No question that those of your stature are in it. Also proper training will get you the flexibility and stamina you need. That is why bodybuilding is not optimal for your MMA needs. Explosive strength training such as hang shrugs, cleans, snatches (just examples) will develop amazing flexibility and strength exactly where you need it.

So I guess what I'm trying to advise here is that regardless of your height/weight, proper strength work will put you on top. Literally:)

I know you can't explain the entirety of bodybuilding and strength training in one post, but as far as lifting goes... what do bodybuilders do different than strength trainers?

If you do a specific exercise with a heavy weight, say 4 sets of 6 reps, is that strength training or body building?

[QUOTE=SamFradsham;281914451]I think you are in for a rough road trying to get big and train for MMA. They are almost completely opposite of each other.

At 5'8" and 230 lbs you are looking at being in the same weight class as people who are 6 feet tall. Unless your arms are so long that you can tie your shoes without bending over, they are going to work you over with stand up.

Plus, it will affect your ground game, because you really do need flexibility. That big you won't be able to scratch your own butt let alone pull some submissions.

I think you should take a step back and decide what it is you would rather do and put your energy and time into that.[/QUOTE]

Ok just to clarify, I am definitely more into MMA and Strength training than I am bodybuilding. I am just unclear as to the differences in the methods each profession uses. Jeff Monson is a great example because he is only an inch taller than me but is a huge wall of muscle and looks great:

[img]http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/j/NBCSports/Sections/UFC/PhotoArchive/Other/Jeff_MonsonHZ.widec.jpg[/img]

This guy is also 5'9" 240, but a bodybuilder, and looks good as well

[img]http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/burzacott_abig.jpg[/img]

So although they may have different training methods, they both look equally awesome.

[QUOTE=sto0le;281918431]I know you can't explain the entirety of bodybuilding and strength training in one post, but as far as lifting goes... what do bodybuilders do different than strength trainers?

If you do a specific exercise with a heavy weight, say 4 sets of 6 reps, is that strength training or body building?[/QUOTE]


The only thing about bodybuilding that goes against your goals are the use of machines that remove stabilization, and the effort on body part splits. Not the weight used or rep ranges. As a matter of fact you should mix things up ala Westside/cojugate methods. The body in tactical/fight scenarios move in a "one for all and all for one" world and unpredictably I might add. Nothing wrong with bodybuilding...just not for MMA. MMA fighters look great despite not using machines or body part splits.

If one has problems/pain explosively pulling a barbell from the floor, up and over your head, or catching it in a squat then you're going to have problems when you have to go up against some well trained opponent.

In my day :) I would be concerned with stuff like "fcuk, I need to increase my explosive pulling strength from a one knee on the floor position. That guy almost had me because of that" (I eventually worked on weighted split squat jumps to snatches.). That's the kind of "imbalance" that can creep in due to machine or small body part work.

I hope you see what I mean.

[edit]Took me for ever to re-find this but...you'll find some good stuff here.

[url]http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_strength/martial_arts_training_3[/url]

StoOle, youve had really good responses all ready, but I thought I'd add my bit, as I know for me sometimes someone can explain the same thing in a different way and it 'clicks' better!

Been training in Martial Arts for most of my life now and have done lots of conditioning work to be at the top of my game for the last 6 of those.

Firstly, with regards to Jeff Monson - yes the guy is pretty HUGE!! I met him at a BBJ comp last year (got a photo with him on my bodyspace profile - you'll see his head is bigger than my torso!!). He is also a highly skilled wrestler and grappler, with GOOD technique. The muscle he has is not as important to him as his skills. When he competes against someone with equal or better skills, the size doesnt help him - it isnt entirely functional and he gasses out real quick.

1. With BB, you're trying to build size/mass and symmetry. It you can somehow do that by lifitng 1kg weights and get HUGE, you wouldnt care, cos it worked! With strength training, its all about getting stronger and developing power. You may gain size, but its all about functional muscle where you can get as much from your body performance wise as possible.

2. If you want to develop explosive power for MMA, you need explosive movements, utilising the body as a whole where possible (kinetic chains). As mentioned in a previous reply, compound lifts are the best for this. A good start point is to do 4 set of 5 reps at around 60/70% 1rep max, with good form but try to lift as fast and hard as possible (max intensity). You then need to incorporate drills to build elastic energy, such as plyos. Work on Speed agility and quickness. Build up your work capacity and lactic acid threshold, other wise you'll gas out in next to no time. Also, think about the movements in your BJJ/MMA and find strength exercises that use similar movements/muscle groups, such as pull ups/chin ups. I find Kettebells great as they also develop your feeling for your centre of balance and weight distribution. I find with KBs I also maintain my flexibility whilst getting stronger.

If you keep pushing, like a BBuilder would, such as upping the weight/reps/tempo, then you will keep progressing and add mass, but it will be useful mass (not knocking BBuilding btw, respect to those guys/girls).

3. I wouldn't focus too much on feeling you have to gain up to a certain weight. Just keep getting stronger and more agile. For me, my training is all about enabling me to get the most from my martail arts training. I only want to lose a fight, or struggle in class because I didnt have the skills right now, not because my body wasnt capable and held me back. I can run rings round sparring partners who are WAY heavier and WAY taller. It is purely because I train hard and smart and more than anything, I have been working on my skills for years longer than they have. If they had EQUAL skills, they more than likely kick my sorry ass!! Endurance wise, remember that 'fitness' is specific, so being able to run at a steady tempo is nothing like BJJ/MMA. You are already doing the right kinda stuff - intervals, short burst of effort. Ask yourself this though - Are you REALLY training flat out max intensity? If you are, the lactic acid will sood be there! It by pushing through this that you will increase your threshold. This will enable you to cope and push through this hell - it wont stop it, but you'll get me comfortable with it. Also, as long as you keep mixing it up to prevent adaptation, you'll imprve your recover time, so that explosive power is soon back for the next round/bout. Flexibility wise - If you are lifting using compund lifts with full range of motion and stretching and sparring/drilling - you'll most likely IMPROVE your flexibility, not lose it.


4. Can only speak from personal experience:

a. Creatine makes a difference, but its not steroid like! It has help me an other elite athletes I know to recover quicker, so they can push it in the next session.
b. With most I've tried, you will hold more water in the muscles - This is good for nourishing the muscles and will make you look a bit bigger. Once you come off it, the water wont be held, therfore, you will 'deflate' a bit.
c. You deffo need to drink more water on it, without a doubt, but lots of supp work better with more H20. In fact, your whole body works better with more H20! I know I'm guilty of not drinking enough water (especially as an athlete) and when I do drink what I should, I feel so much better all round.
d. I found I helps me after I train to recover so I'm at my peak for the next days session. I haven't personally found it to give me endurance. It replenishes ATP, which we use for explosive burst of effort, that last a few seconds. It wont do much for your slow twich mucle fibers in my opinion.

e. I'm sure there are many others that have the knowledge and literary skills to explain this and you could easily find stuff on here and/or goolge search! To REALLY simplify, they use different energy systems and on the whole, different muscle fibers. As mentioned before - try to use your whole body as a unit - exercises like KB turkish get ups are great for MMA, olympic lifts.

There are such fantastic resources out there and you can experiment with them. Always track your progress, so if you hit a plateau, you can adapt it and push through. Eventually, you'll have a training plan unique to you - a kind of mish-mash of all different stuff through trial and error.

A place to start would be:

1. Ross Enamait.
2. Martin Rooney.
3. Jason C Brown.
4. Scott Sonnon.

Once its not so freezing cold here, I will video a few drills and exercises on my bodyspace profile, so keep a look out, you might like to give em a go! :)

Hope this helps a little - as I say, I have nothing any better to add than the great posts so far - agree with them all - just another perspective for you!

Good luck with your training.

Very well put!

I need to brush up on my writing skills:)

Yea this is going to take me a bit of time to read everything, thank you everyone for all of the info... I have even linked this thread to some friends :)

[QUOTE=sto0le;281890631]Hi there,

I practice Mixed Martial Arts and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I had a couple questions I was hoping you guys could help answer. I have learned a lot of good things from this forum, but wanted to clarify these just to be sure.

1. What is the difference between lifting for bodybuilding and lifting for strength training?

2. I want to increase my strength and look good via bodybuilding, what type of workout program should I follow?

3. I am 5'8" 200 with about 20% bf, assuming I cut down to the low teens bf %, and bulk up to say.. 230, is it true I will lose a lot of flexibility and endurance? I assume that more muscle mass would mean my heart has to work harder and so I would not be able to last as long in a fight as a taller guy could with the same weight.

4. True or False on these Creatine myths?
a. Muscles develop too quickly for the tendons and heart to keep up.
b. Once you stop using it you "deflate" very quickly
c. It is easy to get dehydrated quickly while using Creatine.
d. You can go longer in a given exercise before fatigue sets in because it helps supply your muscles with more energy.

5. I do a lot of conditioning, mostly explosive short duration exercises repeated many times over, and alternated with other similar exercises. Why is it I can run for an hour on a treadmill no problem, but these conditioning exercises kick my ass? What is the "scientific" difference between the way your body uses energy for long distance running vs short burst running type exercises?

Thank you for any help![/QUOTE]

Well, general strength training employs the bodybuilding style of training. I think bodybuilding calls for more different types of exercises, which includes a lot a 'sculpting' type of movements. Also, there's more angles employed. For strength, you just need to do say a barbell curl, maybe concentration curl, and alternating curls. Bodybuilders would probably add hammer curls, preachers, incline bench alternating curls. And this is just the small muscle of the biceps. Imagine how long it takes to do quads? (Notice, I didn't say upper leg)

I think if you keep up your stretching as you get larger, you will retain flexibility. But, it is a must to keep up with your stretching. May I also suggest foam rolling.

Also, the same with conditioning. You have to teach your cardiovascular system so it can maintain it's motor to move your body as it grows.

Last of all, the explosiveness can only develop with everything I mentioned previously. These are the bases.

[QUOTE=filipino_muscle;282485441]Well, general strength training employs the bodybuilding style of training. I think bodybuilding calls for more different types of exercises, which includes a lot a 'sculpting' type of movements. Also, there's more angles employed. For strength, you just need to do say a barbell curl, maybe concentration curl, and alternating curls. Bodybuilders would probably add hammer curls, preachers, incline bench alternating curls. And this is just the small muscle of the biceps. Imagine how long it takes to do quads? (Notice, I didn't say upper leg)

I think if you keep up your stretching as you get larger, you will retain flexibility. But, it is a must to keep up with your stretching. May I also suggest foam rolling.

Also, the same with conditioning. You have to teach your cardiovascular system so it can maintain it's motor to move your body as it grows.

Last of all, the explosiveness can only develop with everything I mentioned previously. These are the bases.[/QUOTE]
REPPED!

Very true points here and great mention of the foam rolling. It has made a tangible difference to me using on on a regualr basis.

I know for a fact that Georges St Pierre has used one before and after training sessions for a few years now, and he's an ok athlete! :D

You'll find loads of examples by sdearching under foam rolers and/or self myofascial release.

Thanks to filipino muscle for adding that - take his advice; It'll really help you out.

I don't do MMA, but as a boxer I would suggest that you don't put on too much bulk for fighting. You do not want to fight at a weight that you're not really natural in. Yes Mike Tyson was somewhat short for a heavyweight and fought and dominated many opponents taller than him but unless you're a genetic goldmine like he is, you are much better off sticking to a weight class where you don't have to be totally jacked to be at.

Of course this is only if you want to compete. If you're just looking to learn fighting for self defence, fitness, ect, then bulk away.

In regards to your fifth question, you have fast twitch and slow twitch muscles. High intensity movements activate your fast twitch and low intensity activates the slow twitch so to fulfill your goals you need to train accordingly.

One last thing, if you're going to bulk and train in MMA, you're going to need to eat a TONNE. I'm only 58kg and I eat about 4000 calories a day which is my maintenance, so at 200lb you need to chug down a lot of food if you're training seriously.

Good luck :)

I've been taking MMA and BJJ classes as well. I wouldn't really want to gain too bulky for it. The more muscular guys in my class are easier to tap out with arm bars. The deltoids in the arm are tighter, which seems to cause problems.

I want to start up a workout program to do on off days. I tend to go to classes twice a week, which last about 2 hours. My goal is to lose weight and gain more flexibility, strength and speed. Any excersies or routines that might work for me? Do I have to jog for long periods of time, or will sprinting short distances work better?

Wbell, I would suggest something like Tabata interval training to start with.

Dont think you are limited to sprints, you can do any bodyweight/weighted exercise as long as you can do max intensity. Bodyweight would be ideal for martial arts.

Do 20 sec max effort of say for example, burpees, then rest 10 seconds. You can continue with the same exercise, or change to a different one each time, say burpees, rest, squats, rest, push ups, rest.......

Do this for 4 mins total. This is one work set.

Once you get better, you can do this for 2 or 3 work sets.

Tabatas are really effective at improving your GPP, so you have more gas in the tank, better cardio endurance and muscle endurance. They are one of the best things out there for increasing your lactic acid threshold, which will make a big difference to you.

Of course you can do circuits to mirror fight rounds in length and so on, but these are quick simple and effective.

One thing that might help is to have an interval timer - I'm not here to advertise, but I use a GYMBOSS, which was cheap and easy to find. Ross enamait recommends them and it has been a godsend. Any interval timer that you can pick up for a low price will be fine, regardless of brand! It just means you arent reliant upon someone else to stand there with a stop watch!

Another variation is to do a tabata, but with punch out drills, for example, on the heavy bag. Punch as hard and fast as you can for 20 secs, then rest 10.... You get the idea - this is a great one and is an absolute killer.

These will burn off the fat and get you in fighting shape no problems.

If you are lifting a few time a week in addition, go for explosive power and strength, so stick to compound moves and use heavy weights. To begin with 5 reps X 5 sets HEAVY would be a good start. After about a month on constantly and gradually progressing, you can then shift to an explosive phase, working on same reps X sets, but at 70-80% 1 rep max, lifting as fast and as explosively as possible.

Always stretch dynamically before you do any type of training and then when really warm and loose at the end of the session, you can do some static stretches. I'd avoid static stretches on your hamstrings though, as its always better to stretch these dynamically, regardless of whether pre/post workout.

I mentioned Ross Enamait earlier - his training ideas are fantastic for anyone in MMA, so I'd suggest you check out his site [url]www.rossboxing.com[/url]

There are lots of free articles on the site that offer sound advice.

Best conditioning website [url]www.8weeksout.com[/url]

[QUOTE=Miyagi23;282507041]REPPED!

Very true points here and great mention of the foam rolling. It has made a tangible difference to me using on on a regualr basis.

I know for a fact that Georges St Pierre has used one before and after training sessions for a few years now, and he's an ok athlete! :D

You'll find loads of examples by sdearching under foam rolers and/or self myofascial release.

Thanks to filipino muscle for adding that - take his advice; It'll really help you out.[/QUOTE]

The irony of working out or playing sports, MMA, whatever - we are actually damaging our muscles, and/or they are getting damaged from an outside source. Yeah, we are building 'mental' strength so we are familiar the next time around. Yeah, we suck down proteins and carbs - and that's when we actually 'feed' and 'regrow' our muscles at the cellular level. But, everyone forgets the physical damage. That's where massages come in. However, that's some dough out of your pocket - so that's where foam rolling comes in.

Great post as I'm doing the whole MMA/Strength Traning thing. The number one advice from everyone was to listen to my body and not overtrain. Also it's very hard to gain weight and do MMA/any type of cardio. I've actually lost weight doing this(lost fat but gained strength) I'm currently doing the 5x5 so that's Monday, Wednesday and Friday while I do MMA on Tuesday and Saturday while I fully rest my body on Sunday and Thursday. So far everything has been working great but my goal besides doing those 2 is too gain weight. I think I'll take some time off of MMA in the near future so I can gain.

Sean Sherk dominates his weight class and look like a bodybuilder. MMA training is distinctly different from bodybuilding but if you can pull it off, why not?

There was a special on Fedor that showed parts of his workout. You might be able to find a few clips on youtube.

Being a bodybuilding board we are all aware fof bodybuilding workouts so i won't go into detail on that.

As for strength and power training for mma here is what my strength and conditioning coach has me do:

I lift weights twice a week:

2 weeks of lifting is for over all strength a typical 5x5 program doing bench squat deadlift and military press.

2 weeks of wight lifting designed to maximize speed and transfer of energy. With these I am workign out maximum of 50% of my max and focusing on exploding upwards as fast and as hard as i can focusing on bar speed. this is done with sets of 20 reps on bench squat deadlift shoulder press, dumbell jerks, and i put a barbell against the wall in a corner similar to how you would t-bar row, except i hold the end of the barbell and punch upwards as hard as i can exploding by driving with my feet hips shoulder and arm.

now repeat.... every 2 weeks switching work outs

also once or twice a week is plyometric workouts consisting of ply push ups, burpees, jump lunges, pounding a tire with a sledge hammer and ply pull ups.

also with mma you are going to be doing A TON of cardio. every day is a few miles of jogging, 3 times a week is wind sprints, jacobs ladder stair machine, burnout outs with pad work.


The on course 5 days a week is 2 hours grappling, 1 hour kickboxing, and 1 hour mma.

I find it very hard to maintain my weight let alone gain any thing. I walk around at 180 work my way down to 170-173 and cut water weight from 173 down to 155 for fights.

[QUOTE=neomage2021;321566251]Being a bodybuilding board we are all aware fof bodybuilding workouts so i won't go into detail on that.

As for strength and power training for mma here is what my strength and conditioning coach has me do:

I lift weights twice a week:

2 weeks of lifting is for over all strength a typical 5x5 program doing bench squat deadlift and military press.

2 weeks of wight lifting designed to maximize speed and transfer of energy. With these I am workign out maximum of 50% of my max and focusing on exploding upwards as fast and as hard as i can focusing on bar speed. this is done with sets of 20 reps on bench squat deadlift shoulder press, dumbell jerks, and i put a barbell against the wall in a corner similar to how you would t-bar row, except i hold the end of the barbell and punch upwards as hard as i can exploding by driving with my feet hips shoulder and arm.

now repeat.... every 2 weeks switching work outs

also once or twice a week is plyometric workouts consisting of ply push ups, burpees, jump lunges, pounding a tire with a sledge hammer and ply pull ups.

also with mma you are going to be doing A TON of cardio. every day is a few miles of jogging, 3 times a week is wind sprints, jacobs ladder stair machine, burnout outs with pad work.


The on course 5 days a week is 2 hours grappling, 1 hour kickboxing, and 1 hour mma.

I find it very hard to maintain my weight let alone gain any thing. I walk around at 180 work my way down to 170-173 and cut water weight from 173 down to 155 for fights.[/QUOTE]

You're not joking on the gaining weight part. I already have a fast metabolism so it's much harder for me to gain alot of muscle mass.

[QUOTE=sto0le;281890631]Hi there,

I practice Mixed Martial Arts and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I had a couple questions I was hoping you guys could help answer. I have learned a lot of good things from this forum, but wanted to clarify these just to be sure.

1. What is the difference between lifting for bodybuilding and lifting for strength training?

2. I want to increase my strength and look good via bodybuilding, what type of workout program should I follow?

3. I am 5'8" 200 with about 20% bf, assuming I cut down to the low teens bf %, and bulk up to say.. 230, is it true I will lose a lot of flexibility and endurance? I assume that more muscle mass would mean my heart has to work harder and so I would not be able to last as long in a fight as a taller guy could with the same weight.

4. True or False on these Creatine myths?
a. Muscles develop too quickly for the tendons and heart to keep up.
b. Once you stop using it you "deflate" very quickly
c. It is easy to get dehydrated quickly while using Creatine.
d. You can go longer in a given exercise before fatigue sets in because it helps supply your muscles with more energy.

5. I do a lot of conditioning, mostly explosive short duration exercises repeated many times over, and alternated with other similar exercises. Why is it I can run for an hour on a treadmill no problem, but these conditioning exercises kick my ass? What is the "scientific" difference between the way your body uses energy for long distance running vs short burst running type exercises?

Thank you for any help![/QUOTE]

1. one is more focused on building mass and keeping a lean physique (basically to look good) and the other is to maximize strength

2. pm me more info and i can help you find something

4.a)false b)false c)true if you dont follow the instructions properly d) kind of, u'll get 6 reps insteada 4 lets say

5. they are different energy systems aerobic/anaerobic. to develop one you must train for that one... i.e. if you wanna get a better 100m time you wouldnt do long distance running... and if you wanted to build up endurance for cross country you wouldnt run sprints.

MMA uses both