**O/T Landis fails 1st drug test.....

[UberBerzerker]

True story - or more Armstrong-like jealousy/conspiracy?!
http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/5822020?FSO1&ATT=HCP&GT1=8393

this just HAPPENED to come the day of his incredible come-back on stage 17...hmmmm


thoughts?

[CHUCK DIESEL]

http://sports.aol.com/tourdefrance/story/_a/steroid-speculation-swirls-around-landis/20060727103109990001

ut ohhhh.......


I was under the impression that the IOC tested for a metabolite of synthetic test not total test but maybe these reporters don’t have it right. I think ur test has to be like over 3,000 to fail a test so we will see.....

[retro_roots]

I was just about to start a thread about this. Seems very suspicious considering it was right at his turning/comeback point in the Tour, from my understanding atleast.

Just seems like this will add more fuel to the "Anti-supplement Movement" in Washington, or atleast put it in the public's eyes.

Heres another Article of the front of Yahoo:
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_ylt=AsS3Vlb92W918Ks7qX.Ke1Z.grcF?slug=ap-landis-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns

[w_llewellyn]

I believe they are still first looking at test/epitest ratio. If that is high they can do a more complicated test to identify the source of the testosterone (endogenous or synthetic).

T/ET ratio testing is very strict these days. You can't get away with very much.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Thanks, this is what I was talking about:

"Under World Anti-Doping Agency regulations, a ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone greater than 4:1 is considered a positive result and subject to investigation. The threshold was recently lowered from 6:1. The most likely natural ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in humans is 1:1."

I am pretty sure the only time the ratio goes over 1:1 is when you take sythetic test. So its like if you fail a IOC test and its the testosterone ratio thats off, you are screwed. None of that "I thought it was asprin."


This would not be a good look for American athletes and sports in general....and would make him look really stupid to take something like test........if the re-test comes back pos.

[Patrick Arnold]

http://sports.aol.com/tourdefrance/story/_a/steroid-speculation-swirls-around-landis/20060727103109990001

ut ohhhh.......


I was under the impression that the IOC tested for a metabolite of synthetic test not total test but maybe these reporters don’t have it right. I think ur test has to be like over 3,000 to fail a test so we will see.....


i think there are three ways to fail a testosterone test

1) if your test/epi ratio is over 6:1

2) if your total testosterone (even if T/E ratio is fine) exceeds something like 1600 ng/dL

or

3) If the testosterone metabolites are shown to have a certain carbon isotope ratio indicating that it came from synthetic exogenous testosterone rather than natural endogenously produced testosteorne


you can fail number 2 if you are taking stuff to increase endogenous production- like anti-estrogens


OTOH, if this guy has naturally high levels, and was also very dehydrated when his sample was taken, and he failed under number 2), then he has a case

[UberBerzerker]

damn you chuck diesel!!! Always stealing my thunder!!!

;)


http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=855827

[CHUCK DIESEL]

i think there are three ways to fail a testosterone test

1) if your test/epi ratio is over 6:1

2) if your total testosterone (even if T/E ratio is fine) exceeds something like 1600 ng/dL

or

3) If the testosterone metabolites are shown to have a certain carbon isotope ratio indicating that it came from synthetic exogenous testosterone rather than natural endogenously produced testosteorne




that makes more sense.


I didnt know it was 1600 ng/DL I thought it was like 3,000 or something like that.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

3) If the testosterone metabolites are shown to have a certain carbon isotope ratio indicating that it came from synthetic exogenous testosterone rather than natural endogenously produced testosteorne



thats how most people fail.........well thats how they were failing when I was powerlifting.

[bredfan]

I was totally shocked to hear this.

I hope he's somehow cleared of this, because I just can't believe anyone could be so careless and stupid, especially these days.

[SI03 Board Rep]

Yeah I am following this pretty closely as well it wil be intresting to see how it pans out.

[factotum]

It's know that Landis has arthritis in his hip and also needs surgery. As a result he was take cortisol so could that affect his Test ratios in any way?

[nni]

nitro-tech strikes again!!!

[Patrick Arnold]

It's know that Landis has arthritis in his hip and also needs surgery. As a result he was take cortisol so could that affect his Test ratios in any way?


if anything that would serve to suppress his testosteorne

what it may do to his T/E ratio i am not sure

[Kohen_Gadol]

if anything that would serve to suppress his testosteorne

what it may do to his T/E ratio i am not sure

The media is not reporting 'exactly' which type of test he flunked.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/27/D8J4EGLO0.html

So it might be the T/E ratio exceeded 4:1 (in which case if the 'B'
sample tests out the same way I think he has a problem) or...

It might be just a simple elevation in his plasma testosterone level
and you make a very good & logical point that if he was a "high sider"
anyhow and very dehydrated (like after biking all day) it could possibly
put him a little over the "limit" - remember, I do not think there is a
"grace clause" so whether he is over the 1,600ng limit by 50ng or
500ng he gets flagged.

They're just saying "elevated testosterone level".

The thing that sucks for this guy is even if it is a testing error...and
we've seen that before...and his 'B' test comes back perfectly OK and
normal...he's going to be dogged as a doper for years to come.

The damage to this guy's reputation is going to be difficult to undo.

Why couldn't this have happened to some Frog instead of another American?


BK

[theScott]

dont worry guys...my boy floyd's gonna be fine...hes appealing the test results...100% of pro athletes who have appealed positive tests have tested negative from the same sample the second time around...these tests are so damn unrealiable...

[ForceLineBacker]

I'm going to wait for the B sample before I make any opinions.

[UberBerzerker]

Why couldn't this have happened to some Frog instead of another American?


BK

'cuz they can't even compete in their own race any longer!!

Muahahahahaha!!!!

actually, if a frenchie won the race, there would be NO positive drug results..guaranteed.


'Official member of Rename the Tour: Tour de Lance'

[chlaxman]

'cuz they can't even compete in their own race any longer!!

Muahahahahaha!!!!

actually, if a frenchie won the race, there would be NO positive drug results..guaranteed.


'Official member of Rename the Tour: Tour de Lance'
You know that they call it the Tour de Georgia? Why the hell do we name our race after the French? That's the one we really need to change.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

'cuz they can't even compete in their own race any longer!!

Muahahahahaha!!!!

actually, if a frenchie won the race, there would be NO positive drug results..guaranteed.


'Official member of Rename the Tour: Tour de Lance'

Hey, get off the French. They didn’t test him the IOC did, as they do with all top place finishers.

[UberBerzerker]

The IOC? International Olympic committtee?!? You mean the UCI, yeah? maybe it's an IOC accredited lab?

Yeah, the French, no Lance-conspiracy there, right?;) L'equipe keeps claiming to have proof of his guilt based on finding by a french lab that tests for epo, and this is all on samples that may or may not have been handled correctly - but more imortantly were not kept annonymous...lmao. :)

[wild1poet2]

i think there are three ways to fail a testosterone test

1) if your test/epi ratio is over 6:1

2) if your total testosterone (even if T/E ratio is fine) exceeds something like 1600 ng/dL

or

3) If the testosterone metabolites are shown to have a certain carbon isotope ratio indicating that it came from synthetic exogenous testosterone rather than natural endogenously produced testosteorne


you can fail number 2 if you are taking stuff to increase endogenous production- like anti-estrogens


OTOH, if this guy has naturally high levels, and was also very dehydrated when his sample was taken, and he failed under number 2), then he has a case

They tightened up the test last year so that the test/epi ratio threshold was reduced from 6:1 to 4:1. Today I read they expect a normal ratio to be 1:1.

But with his bad hip he may have been taking cortisone to reduce inflammation. But you'd think his docs would have been on top of the testing issue.

[UberBerzerker]

They tightened up the test last year so that the test/epi ratio threshold was reduced from 6:1 to 4:1. Today I read they expect a normal ratio to be 1:1.

But with his bad hip he may have been taking cortisone to reduce inflammation. But you'd think his docs would have been on top of the testing issue.

they at least would have to disclose that he is on something BEFORE The race, and then, if I were them, that would be the first thing to point to for causing such a out of balance ratio.

[infamous_kid]

Well many have heard on the news that Tour de France winner Floyd Landis
tested positive for "having high levels of testoterone" in his system. Now everybody is all hyped up about him using some kind of testoerone booster which they sell at a nearby GNC. Everybody makes it seem its dangerous as cocaine, heroine, weed, etc. I think thats alot of B.S.!

TELL WHAT YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT THIS SITUATION GOING ON.

[OhioDeeds10]

I don't think that people make it sound dangerous. I just think they point out that he was cheating. I don't see anything wrong with taking stuff like that. Only when your competitors aren't allowed to take it is when I think it's wrong.

[musicfreak]

It is intreasting that is true I hope this doesn't tarnish the image of the US team.

[Patrick Arnold]

The media is not reporting 'exactly' which type of test he flunked.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/27/D8J4EGLO0.html

So it might be the T/E ratio exceeded 4:1 (in which case if the 'B'
sample tests out the same way I think he has a problem) or...

It might be just a simple elevation in his plasma testosterone level
and you make a very good & logical point that if he was a "high sider"
anyhow and very dehydrated (like after biking all day) it could possibly
put him a little over the "limit" - remember, I do not think there is a
"grace clause" so whether he is over the 1,600ng limit by 50ng or
500ng he gets flagged.

They're just saying "elevated testosterone level".

The thing that sucks for this guy is even if it is a testing error...and
we've seen that before...and his 'B' test comes back perfectly OK and
normal...he's going to be dogged as a doper for years to come.

The damage to this guy's reputation is going to be difficult to undo.

Why couldn't this have happened to some Frog instead of another American?


BK

I think if his B sample came back ok then everyone would just forget about it

[Patrick Arnold]

Hey, get off the French. They didn’t test him the IOC did, as they do with all top place finishers.




yeah i am sick of all the french bashing too

there would be no united states of america if it were not for the french. we would all still be a colony of Britain

[Kohen_Gadol]

I think if his B sample came back ok then everyone would just forget about it

I hope so...this guy has a great story...the hip injury...the come from
behind victory...all American farm-land kid.

It would suck if he lost endorsement deals if he gets cleared of any
wrong-doing anyhow :(

Look what happend to Lance...he was cleared and they still think he
was using EPO.

Take care Pat,

BK

[NKWulf]

maybe he just big balls...have to to bealbe to step up and take lance's spot.

[Kohen_Gadol]

yeah i am sick of all the french bashing too

there would be no united states of america if it were not for the french. we would all still be a colony of Britain

Somehow I doubt we'd still be a colony of Britain but I get your point.

I'm friendly with a guy who lives in Lorraine and I razz him all the time
about "being French" and he quickly intercedes and tells me his
ancestors were "really German".

Viva La Revolucion!

Now if we could just get them off the UN security council... :)

BK

[UberBerzerker]

yeah i am sick of all the french bashing too

there would be no united states of america if it were not for the french. we would all still be a colony of Britain


to quote a writer I can't remember the name of:

If not for America, this race would be called the tour of german-occupied-france

:D

I'm not bashing ''The French'' I'm just sick of the witch hunt tactics of L'equipe and all related bodies.

[utjock12]

Somehow I doubt we'd still be a colony of Britain but I get your point.

I'm friendly with a guy who lives in Lorraine and I razz him all the time
about "being French" and he quickly intercedes and tells me his
ancestors were "really German".

Viva La Revolucion!

Now if we could just get them off the UN security council... :)

BK
lol, i second that, especially in this colonial world we live in now :) that said i think the french are kinda guilt free on this. either the tests are really good and everyone in the sport is doping (remember many top contenders were accused of doping before the race like Ullrich EDIT sp.) or the tests are unrealiable and they are on a witch hunt. personally i think its #2 because what major sports arent dominated by performance enhancing drugs.

also, does anyone hate the word "doping". cant they think of a better and more accurate way to describe these tests. it can be anything from anabolic steroids to a test booster, the media is rediculous.

[UberBerzerker]

I hope so...this guy has a great story...the hip injury...the come from
behind victory...all American farm-land kid.

It would suck if he lost endorsement deals if he gets cleared of any
wrong-doing anyhow

Look what happend to Lance...he was cleared and they still think he
was using EPO.


don't forget the best part of his farmboy upbringing....his dad looked down on his bike racing, called it useless, etc. AND he started out riding Mtn. bikes, NOT road bikes. Won his first race in sweatpants. lol

don't feel bad for lance either. He makes more off of one nike ad than all of us put together, doping accusations or not. Floyd will be just fine also, I'm sure of it. Even if he is found guilty - he serves a 2 year ban like Tyler Hamilton, then makes a comeback...what a story! ;)

[utjock12]

don't forget the best part of his farmboy upbringing....his dad looked down on his bike racing, called it useless, etc. AND he started out riding Mtn. bikes, NOT road bikes. Won his first race in sweatpants. lol

don't feel bad for lance either. He makes more off of one nike ad than all of us put together, doping accusations or not. Floyd will be just fine also, I'm sure of it. Even if he is found guilty - he serves a 2 year ban like Tyler Hamilton, then makes a comeback...what a story! ;)
him and his bionic leg. im sure the french will accuse him of using machined assistence or something.

[391rippy]

if he was actually injecting test, wouldn't he just inject epitest right before the drug test?

[mr_moto_civic]

Where did y'all hear about the GNC test booster? There was no mention of GNC in the news articles that I've read.

[BillyB]

It is known that he has had problems with his thyroid. They think the meds he was on may have caused the reading that was slightly off.

[Skigazzi]

I just saw on ESPN that the test actually showed he had slightly low testosterone levels, and VERY low epitest levels, throwing his ratio out of wack, they mentioned his cortisone shots possibly throwing his system off.

If he gets wacked for having low total T, that shows up as high compared to WAY LOW epitest, its a total shame.

(this is what I just heard...who knows if its true.)

[ho_124]

can natural test boosters like diesel test, activate, fenotest, Xtest, Tribulus, ZMA make you fail the test?

[Yaaju]

"The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI about an unusual level of Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France," said the team in a statement.


So can someone explain to me what a Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio is so that I can understand the implications involved here?

[Skigazzi]

So can someone explain to me what a Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio is so that I can understand the implications involved here?

In very simple terms, the body usually has a ratio of 1:1 of T and E, but as high as 4:1 can be found. When a person injects T, it will skew the ratio, making the outside T detectable.

But in his case, they are saying his T was low, but his ET was VERY VERY low...so I dont see how this can denote doping...this sucks for him.

[Nathan1]

he is definately starting off on the wrong foot:

See:

"All I'm asking for," he said, "is that I be given a chance to prove that I'm innocent."

Meh?!

.sdrawkcab

[CHUCK DIESEL]

can natural test boosters like diesel test, activate, fenotest, Xtest, Tribulus, ZMA make you fail the test?

No, not since u have to have over 1600 total test to "fail." Test boosters have no effect on your test to epi ratio and thats how most fail.

[RobW]

we would all still be a colony of Britain

"Good old days".....

[deserusan]

there would be no united states of america if it were not for the french. we would all still be a colony of Britain

It really depends on how far back in history you want to go PA. The way I see things, France would still be bent over a log by Germany like a scene out of the movie Deliverance if it wasn't for us back in WWII. :)

German SS: Pfeifen mogen ein Schwein!

French Resistance:Nous détestons des juifs aussi!

German SS: Pfeifen mogen einen Juden!

French Resistance: Puisque vous le mettez que la maniere disparaissent en avant grand garcon!

German SS: Ihr arschloch ist für einen Franzosen eindrucksvoll

French Resistance: C'est parce que nous sommes tous de grands vagins!

:)

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Ok, lets stop with the Germany/France BS.

Anyway from what I know.

Landis test showed low test levels.

His test to epitest levels was high because his epitest. was really low.

He had 2-3 previous test during the first 16 stages that were neg.

A doc. said it would make no sense to take test after one stage because it wouldn’t enhance performance that fast. He should have tested pos. before the tour started like the other 3 guys that were not allowed to race.

So who knows. If the B sample comes back the same as the A sample then the appeal process starts.

[UberBerzerker]

Anyway from what I know.

Landis test showed low test levels.



I believe it's other way around, actually - it showed unusually high T.
http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/5822024?FSO1&ATT=HCP&GT1=8393


If the B sample comes back the same as the A sample then the appeal process starts.

and if it comes back negative, then he is innocent. And I can't wait until he gets to hold a press conf. and tell all the ''haters'' to go F themselves, but he won't cuz he's got more class than that...but he could if he wanted to, and everyone will know it, and knowing is half the battle (GI Joe)

[vegHead]

anyone catch his press conference today? He did a pretty horrendous job at presenting himself, at least I thought so. I mean coming in with the **** and tie with a backwards cap just isn't a good pr professional look. Then he really seemed to have no understanding of what he read. I really don't know how it's all gonna play out so I can't say he's guilty or innocent now but I guess we will find out.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

I believe it's other way around, actually - it showed unusually high T.
http://msn.foxsports.com/cycling/story/5822024?FSO1&ATT=HCP&GT1=8393


That article doesn’t say he failed because of high testosterone. His testosterone was high compared to his epitestosterone as in over a 4:1 ratio when he should be at 1:1.

[UberBerzerker]

That article doesn’t say he failed because of high testosterone. His testosterone was high compared to his epitestosterone as in over a 4:1 ratio when he should be at 1:1.

technically, he's said that he has high natty test and will prove it. I'm assuming that his ept was closer to normal, but the high natty test his body makes caused the flag to go up on the test. Right?


MADRID, Spain (AP) - Floyd Landis said he has naturally high testosterone levels, and will undergo tests to prove he is not guilty of doping at the Tour de France.


1:1 for normal man's range, but allowable is 4:1 for cycling, right?

[CHUCK DIESEL]

technically, he's said that he has high natty test and will prove it. I'm assuming that his ept was closer to normal, but the high natty test his body makes caused the flag to go up on the test. Right?




1:1 for normal man's range, but allowable is 4:1 for cycling, right?

landis just made that statement without probably knowing how he failed. He failed because his epi. was low throwing off his test to epi ratio. But anyway the thing is, he pased 2 or 3 previous test since the race began so its fishy.

Thats like taking test right before a baseball game for the first time ever.........or in months thinking its going to make u hit harder that day.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

"Epitestosterone has been identified as a natural component of biological fluids of several mammals including man. For a long time it was believed that it is a metabolite without any hormonal activity and without any marked relationship to the hormonal state in health and disease. Neither the biosynthetic pathway nor the site of its formation in man have been unequivocally confirmed to date. It apparently parallels the formation of testosterone (T), but on the other hand its concentration is not influenced by exogenous administration of testosterone. This fact creates the basis of the present doping control of testosterone abuse."

I guess this is saying your ratio should always be 1:1.

Who knows.

[UberBerzerker]

.... its fishy.



my point all along ;) The testing center ( in france ) leaks info to the french newspaper that had it out for Lance so they can create a media **** storm about another American winning their race. Call me paranoid, but I think that's enough doubt to be beyond strange. As for Floyd, it's just as odd that they just HAPPENED to now, after he won the race, find out that his comeback stage was the one that has this outta balance finding. I just find it all too coincidental. just my .02

[vegHead]

Quick random question:

It seems as though that he failed the test that he took directly after finishing stage 17, although i may be wrong. What I'm wondering is do they test everyone after each stage? Or randomly after certain stages?

[UberBerzerker]

Quick random question:

It seems as though that he failed the test that he took directly after finishing stage 17, although i may be wrong. What I'm wondering is do they test everyone after each stage? Or randomly after certain stages?

I tried to look up the testing protocol, but didn't find what I was looking for. It's my understanding that each rider gives a sample after each stage.



FWIW : Floyd will be on Larry King Live tonight, July 28th at 9pm EST.

[vegHead]

I tried to look up the testing protocol, but didn't find what I was looking for. It's my understanding that each rider gives a sample after each stage.



FWIW : Floyd will be on Larry King Live tonight, July 28th at 9pm EST.
yeah because I was thinking if it were each stage then clearly there has to be something wrong in this one test if all the other ones come back as negative. Seems really odd.

EDIT: also gonna be on outside the lines tonight http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/index

[w_llewellyn]

It's my understanding that each rider gives a sample after each stage.

WTF. You'll never see me in that race because (aside from having no inherent talent at all) I wouldn't be too fond of having some dude watch me take a piss all the ****ing time..

That sucks.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

I tried to look up the testing protocol, but didn't find what I was looking for. It's my understanding that each rider gives a sample after each stage.



FWIW : Floyd will be on Larry King Live tonight, July 28th at 9pm EST.

I don’t really care what’s he is saying or have to say, I have seen athletes look right into the camera and lie about drug use..............unless hes coming on there with test results. I also don’t know the protocol, but Im assuming the top finishers after each stage is tested. I know he had at least 2 earlier test during the tour that was neg.

Also if they took 2 samples back to back, why wouldint the b sample be pos. also? Unless they just f-ed the test up.

[UberBerzerker]

I don’t really care what’s he is saying or have to say, I have seen athletes look right into the camera and lie about drug use..............unless hes coming on there with test results. lol, settle down, bud...haha. I know what you're saying and I was just hoping he'd come on there and tell us why this happened - like if it was his meds or something the doctors figured out.


I also don’t know the protocol, but Im assuming the top finishers after each stage is tested. I know he had at least 2 earlier test during the tour that was neg.

exactly why the ONE test that throws a flag seems all the more suspicious


Also if they took 2 samples back to back, why wouldint the b sample be pos. also? Unless they just f-ed the test up.

logic would dictate this to be true...however, I don't know that we can apply that here. ;)

[Joel]

Chuck I would have never guessed you as a Cycling fan

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Chuck I would have never guessed you as a Cycling fan

I like any sport that is physically challenging...........like womens tennis :) and soccer.

[E-Go]

Anything new come of this yet? I don't have cable right now, so an update on the situation with Landis would be great

Thanks

[Kreig]

The French media really doesn't like us constantly winning their big race. Sadly, even if Landis is completely cleared the allegations will follow him for the rest of his life (just like Lance).

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Anything new come of this yet? I don't have cable right now, so an update on the situation with Landis would be great

Thanks

they said mid-next week sample B test results will be in.

[Nathan1]

my point all along ;) The testing center ( in france ) leaks info to the french newspaper that had it out for Lance so they can create a media **** storm about another American winning their race. Call me paranoid, but I think that's enough doubt to be beyond strange. As for Floyd, it's just as odd that they just HAPPENED to now, after he won the race, find out that his comeback stage was the one that has this outta balance finding. I just find it all too coincidental. just my .02


....and you can always be sure our media will run with speculation/hearsay. :rolleyes:

[pu12en12g]

Olympic champion Gatlin says he failed drug test
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/07/29/gatlin.doping.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[whitedevil74]

yeah i am sick of all the french bashing too

there would be no united states of america if it were not for the french. we would all still be a colony of Britain


Don't let the press get a hold of that statement PA, they are already trying to crucify you. Eat your freedom fries and be a good patriot.

[whitedevil74]

What would be the point of injecting test in the very end of a race. Would it even have time to exert a positive effect on his performance? I have never injected test, but it seems that it would need some time in your system before you started to see its positive benefits. Someone educate me here.

[Joel]

You know I wouldnt put it passed a lot of these guys to use banned substances. Someone like Lance expects to win and knows he will get tested but someone who is relatively unknown might think " I probably wont win anyway, I will inject some Test and hey if I win I will just take my chances with the drug test"

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Olympic champion Gatlin says he failed drug test
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/07/29/gatlin.doping.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

Yeah I saw that last night, and they said he took about 100's of test in the last year off season and during season and failed a test in april..........but they never say exactly how these "testosterone" test are being failed.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

What would be the point of injecting test in the very end of a race. Would it even have time to exert a positive effect on his performance? I have never injected test, but it seems that it would need some time in your system before you started to see its positive benefits. Someone educate me here.


That’s what a DOC said on ESPN a few days ago. He said it makes no sense to take test in the middle of the tour-de-France. He said Test doesn’t work in 1 day or from an acute dose.

[Sixpack]

test like sustanon takes about 1.5 weeks to kick in

[Joel]

Keep in mind there very well could be some new designer "cream" or " clear" out there that is "supposedly" undetectable.

[chlaxman]

Keep in mind there very well could be some new designer "cream" or " clear" out there that is "supposedly" undetectable.
Totally possible, but I'm a bit skeptical because his test levels were not high.

[UberBerzerker]

Just an FYI to those who had questions about how testing is done. This is from the Larry King Live show on Fri that Landis was on


: The way it works is they test three people each day. They test the winning of each stage, they test the leader of the race and then they test a random person in the race.

All of these take place directly at the finish line. It turns out the leader of the race has often things to do at the podium and awards but immediately after that, but within a half an hour, I would say, maximum.


also from his doc, KAY...


KING: How do you explain the high level of testosterone?

KAY: Well, I think that's been one of the problems is that he does not have a high level of testosterone. That's not been documented ...

KING: Well ...

KAY: He has a high ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in his urine.

KING: Meaning?

KAY: Which could be due to an elevated testosterone level. It could be due to a lower epitestosterone level. And it could be due to a variety of other factors with handling and specimen contamination and various other things.

KING: I asked Floyd this. He said it's better answered by you.

What does testosterone do for a race driver?

KAY: For a cyclist it would be my opinion that it would make it worse.

KING: Worse?

KAY: I think that's the crazy thing here. I think everybody really needs to take a step back and look at what we're talking about. Because testosterone is a bodybuilding steroid that builds mass. It builds mass over long term use of weeks, months and even years and it's crazy to think that a Tour de France professional cyclist would be using testosterone, particularly in the middle of a race.

It's a joke. Every sports medicine expert, physician, trainer, scientist that I've talked to in the last day, really, same opinion, no way, this is a joke.

[Joel]

Read in newspaper today that Landis Test to EpiTest was 11:1 , and they are claiming that SYNTHETIC Test was detected. Landis has appealed to have sample B tested, and supposedly that is getting done this week. If Sample B tests the same, he will be suspended 2 years and be stripped of his Tour De France title.

He still claims he is completely innocent

[RobW]

Read in newspaper today that Landis Test to EpiTest was 11:1 , and they are claiming that SYNTHETIC Test was detected. Landis has appealed to have sample B tested, and supposedly that is getting done this week. If Sample B tests the same, he will be suspended 2 years and be stripped of his Tour De France title.

He still claims he is completely innocent

Seems obvious that he (as do all cyclists) took the Test which would account for the high test to epitest ratio...Then took something to try to mask it, which would explain the low overall test reading...

How long until the "it was something in my Protein Powder" defence is used???

Hey I do NOT have a problem with these guys doing what they want with their bodies to win, I just wish they would own up when caught, and not blam the supplement industry....

[mr_moto_civic]

Seems obvious that he (as do all cyclists) took the Test which would account for the high test to epitest ratio...Then took something to try to mask it, which would explain the low overall test reading...

How long until the "it was something in my Protein Powder" defence is used???

Hey I do NOT have a problem with these guys doing what they want with their bodies to win, I just wish they would own up when caught, and not blam the supplement industry....

I'm really not into this bicycling thing, but I've always heard that the sport is one of the dirtiest, dopiest around.

I'm still not sure that I trust the French and their French labs. Don't they totally resent the winning American cyclists? Didn't they try to pin something on Lance Armstrong... EPO, I think?

Edit- changed '"I" to "I'm" in the first sentence. Geeez.

[RobW]

I really not into this bicycling thing, but I've always heard that the sport is one of the dirtiest, dopiest around.

I'm still not sure that I trust the French and their French labs. Don't they totally resent the winning American cyclists? Didn't they try to pin something on Lance Armstrong... EPO, I think?

Let me assure you as an ENGLISHMAN, I am "no fan of the French", but I really do not think this is because he is American...They test 3 people from each stage, one of them being the stage winner which he was for stage 17. Also I think the Lab is in Spain NOT France, plus I assume the team he rides for is European not American....

I think as you say, it is a sport in which they ALL do it, the guys that won the "tour of Spain & tour of Italy" were also tested and have been banned (neither of these were American)...It's not a US/French thing, its a cycling thing...

[UberBerzerker]

Let me assure you as an ENGLISHMAN, I am "no fan of the French", but I really do not think this is because he is American...They test 3 people from each stage, one of them being the stage winner which he was for stage 17. Also I think the Lab is in Spain NOT France, plus I assume the team he rides for is European not American....

I think as you say, it is a sport in which they ALL do it, the guys that won the "tour of Spain & tour of Italy" were also tested and have been banned (neither of these were American)...It's not a US/French thing, its a cycling thing...

Floyd rides for Phonak, a Swiss-based team

the testing lab was in France.

[RobW]

Floyd rides for Phonak, a Swiss-based team

the testing lab was in France.

Swiss/French....same thing to me....neither of them are too keen on fighting wars....and they all speak French.....

I still don't think it is an anti-american witch hunt....

[mr_moto_civic]

Thanks for the info and perspective. Maybe Landis felt his career was shot anyway with his bad hip joints, so he might as well go for testo broke.

[UberBerzerker]

Swiss/French....same thing to me....neither of them are too keen on fighting wars....and they all speak French.....

I still don't think it is an anti-american witch hunt....

not trying to argue, I just wanted to show that the lab was indeed in France so you didn't think I was just being an ass

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10627.0.html



The carbon isotope test on the first of Landis' two urine samples taken after his 17th stage win in last month's Tour indicates the presence of synthetic testosterone, said the official with knowledge of the results from France's Châtenay-Malabry anti-doping laboratory.

[GimpyPaw]

OK, so what's the latest on the second sample tests? Anything yet?

[UberBerzerker]

OK, so what's the latest on the second sample tests? Anything yet?

by saturday.

[RobW]

[QUOTE=UberBerzerker] so you didn't think I was just being an ass


NEVER :D

[Blitz n destroy]

I could have sworn on PTI that they said test b came back the same..?

[Joel]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/08/05/landis.positive.ap/index.html

PARIS (AP) -- Tour de France champion Floyd Landis' backup urine sample confirmed high levels of testosterone, cycling's governing body said Saturday, raising the prospect that he could lose his title.

Following the results of the "B" sample, Landis was fired by his Swiss team, Phonak. He also faces a two-year ban from USA Cycling, which is responsible for sanctions against the American rider.

"The analysis of the sample B of Floyd Landis's urine has confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding notified by the anti-doping laboratory of Paris on 26th July, following the analysis of the sample A," the International Cycling Union said, referring to the Chatenay-Malabry lab outside Paris.

[Sixpack]

He is screwed got damn Gatlin now him damn our US athletes are setting a great example

[Joel]

He is screwed got damn Gatlin now him damn our US athletes are setting a great example


I think we need have you tested next SixPack

[Sixpack]

Sure I am game


I think we need have you tested next SixPack

[dwm230000]

ESPN just reported that his B sample also failed.

[GimpyPaw]

Yep, not only did his "B" sample come up possitive, but they did what they called Isotope testing, and found synthetic hormones. Landis has been fired by Phonak, and now comes the long court battles.

Phonak is really hating on this, I'm sure. Floyd was brought in as team captain to replace Tyler Hamilton, who got a 2 yr ban for doping (red blood) on the Tour. Two consecutive team captains busted for doping? That makes a team look good. :rolleyes:

[Joel]

Im betting they are using some new designer "Clear" or "Cream" and thought they could beat the test

[dmillz224]

He is screwed got damn Gatlin now him damn our US athletes are setting a great example
I seriously dont think gatlin would do anything like this to ruin his career I went to high school with this kid and he was always the quiet guy who ran track he never played football or anything just run and why in the hell would he decide to roid up for the f***in kansas city relay and not the olympics or the world track and field championship it just dosent seem right to me and this is the second time he tested positive the first was for taking ritalin for ADD which was prescribed by a doctor so I call bull****

[CHUCK DIESEL]

ESPN just reported that his B sample also failed.

I was thinking last night when ESPN said the results would be releases at 5:30AM that someone would get up that early to post the results on bb.com..............hope u were just up watching ESPN and happen to see that.


Both of Landis' "A" and "B" samples turned up a testosterone/epitestosterone ratio of 11:1 - far in excess of the 4:1 limit.

Jacques De Ceaurriz, the Chatenay-Malabray chief, said the synthetic testosterone was found in isotope testing.

"It's foolproof. This analysis tells the difference between endogenous and exogenous," he told the AP. "No error is possible in isotopic readings."

[CHUCK DIESEL]

maybe Landis naturally has high levels of synthetic testosterone..........

[Joel]

maybe Landis naturally has high levels of synthetic testosterone..........


Um, sure !

[CHUCK DIESEL]

Damn, thats crazy all over the news was Landis "positive" test, but in small print on espn the other day was the message the b sample test was f-ed up and he didnt test positive.

[Simon Keller]

Damn, thats crazy all over the news was Landis "positive" test, but in small print on espn the other day was the message the b sample test was f-ed up and he didnt test positive.
I saw that as well, funny though, haven't seen anything about it on the news, etc. My only question is, so what happens now???

[mr_moto_civic]

That's weird because I was just thinking about him the other day... had almost forgotten about him! Anyhow, I hope things work out for him because I really think he got screwed over.

[CHUCK DIESEL]

they put it at the bottom of the news ticker on espn2 for like 3 seconds and kept moving along. I had to rewind with the dvr to make sure I saw that ok. His sponsors dropped him, his team left him, if I was him I would tell them to all E.A.D.

[Nathan1]

they put it at the bottom of the news ticker on espn2 for like 3 seconds and kept moving along. I had to rewind with the dvr to make sure I saw that ok. His sponsors dropped him, his team left him, if I was him I would tell them to all E.A.D.

ESPN is really no different than any other TV news organization. I can think of countless examples like this.

[vegHead]

Damn, thats crazy all over the news was Landis "positive" test, but in small print on espn the other day was the message the b sample test was f-ed up and he didnt test positive.
Yeah they were tlaking about this on PTI the other day apparently there was a mix up or something in which sample they used his smaple number was like "234" and they mistakened his with "233" something along those lines I guess.

[GeneGnomeX]

There are lots of mistakes by the lab. See here: http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25834&hl=landis

According to the lab's own numbers, the number from literature which is considered the best determination of a positive/negative test, he is negative.

[UberBerzerker]

As i said before and will continue to say - what a load of conspiracy bull****.

''administrative error'' ??! bull****


fyi, I believe his next step is an arbitration hearing where he can contest the ruling against him (being stripped of the crown) after that, I'm not sure.

[GeneGnomeX]

As i said before and will continue to say - what a load of conspiracy bull****.

''administrative error'' ??! bull****


fyi, I believe his next step is an arbitration hearing where he can contest the ruling against him (being stripped of the crown) after that, I'm not sure.

Yeah, ironically the US (don't recall which authority) has the final ruling on his guilt, I believe.

Of course, the pdf in that link may not show all the data, as it is put together by his former adviser.

Either way the damage has been done, even if he is innocent I highly doubt it will be published as much as when he was found "guilty"

[mr_moto_civic]

Yeah, ironically the US (don't recall which authority) has the final ruling on his guilt, I believe.

Of course, the pdf in that link may not show all the data, as it is put together by his former adviser.

Either way the damage has been done, even if he is innocent I highly doubt it will be published as much as when he was found "guilty"

Yes, Landis was chewed up and spit out by the press... and the more he opened his mouth, the muckier it got, as if he was sinking in quicksand.

[GimpyPaw]

As i said before and will continue to say - what a load of conspiracy bull****.

''administrative error'' ??! bull****


fyi, I believe his next step is an arbitration hearing where he can contest the ruling against him (being stripped of the crown) after that, I'm not sure.
I agree and also call BS. I read the entire "defense" thing. "The lab scratched out a mistake instead of a single line with initials :(" "The technicians could know it was Floyd because he's the only one using Cortisol for his hip :("

OJ Simpson rides a bike?