Knife Making

[_STL_15_]

Anyone like to make their own knives? I just got into doing it myself. I made a few knives for deer season to help process the deer. I'm in the process of making another at the moment.

[skinnyme]

I'm interested in learning how. I met a custom knife maker in Florida in January and he explained a little about different techniques and showed me some of his work. He does some awesome Damascus blades. I think for starters, I'm going to try one out of an old sawmill blade, based on his recommendations. How did you make yours?

[Laurie]

Yes, what are your methods? Metal removal or forging?

Professional interest and encouragement to a new knifemaker. My husband is a swordmaker who uses traditional methods to handforge them in his blacksmith shop.

Always good to see others taking up part of the Craft.

[mick123]

any tips/sharpening knives?

how do you make knives just basically get a piece of metal and use and angle grinder?

[Hartski]

I made my own throwing knives when I was a kid. I just started with a solid bar of steel and ground away everything that didn't look like a knife. Then I heated it up to red hot with the torch and quenched it in a bucket of cold water to temper it.


But I would like to learn how to make swords and knives the traditional way.

[Laurie]

My husband uses Spring Steel (5160 Alloy) for making his blades with. This steel has a certain percentage of chromium and maganese to produce a tough, springy blade when forged and tempered. Even the Viking Age swords were made from this alloy. Good steel has been produced by the Celts and the Greeks. (http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/articles/steel_greece_rome/steel_in_ancient_greece_an.html) Romans produced it or got it in trade from Northern India who made "wootz steel" called this from the method of producing it Thracians were known to produce steel and even the Hittites.
Background on who made it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel) So it is not new.

Longer blades are subject to more stress/punishment than shorter knives are and not all steels are suitable for making either. So taking "a bar of steel" will give you good or bad results depending on what it's alloy content. Some knifemakers use 1080 or 1095 but there are other alloys to try. Just try a search under "Knifemaking" or "how to make a knifeblade".

Here are some sites:
How Sword Smithing Works (http://www.selinafenech.com/swords/forging.html) pretty simplified.
what steels are used (http://users.ameritech.net/knives/steels.htm)
Wikipedia overview of "Knife" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife)

Stay away from Tool steels. Tool steel alloy will make a blade too brittle. Stainless is also too hard despite commercal uses for knife or swordblades.

By the way, you dont quench a blade in water. That's fine for hardening a chisel but not blades. Cools too quickly and the results made the blade too brittle. Oil quenching is best.

By hammering, you change the molecular structure of the steel that grinding away does not do. My husband is a traditionalist. He uses a coalfired forge with forgeblower, hammer and anvil. His tempering methods are the same as what was used over the centuries. Spent the last 52 years making his blades for museums, Living History reenactors and collectors.

You can see his shop here (http://www.kirbywise.com) I decorate the weaponry.

"Damascus" is a misnomer. A Victorian term for a cheap form of "watered steel". What you saw was "Patternwelded Steel" where bars of iron and carbon were "woven" together through a forgewelded process. The results are quite beautiful. Even Japanese blades are made the same way but the layering is even more complex. This does not mean they are any better than using the Western method, just different.

[Chipman]

I have made two knives both of which sucked but surprisingly I sold both of them for 30 bucks each at a gun and knife show. Then I tried a few kit knives and they sucked.

Then one day I met A.G. Russell who is a famous knife maker and who lives just a short distance away. His second in command gave me a tour of their shop and I figured out that I knew nothing about knife making so I gave it up.

I did however get to hold a ten thousand year old Mastadon tusk that day because they were using it to make handles.

http://www.agrussell.com/

[Laurie]

Lucky you and a rare find.

Some Mammoth ivory can be rather brittle and full of age cracks so it breaks away in layers instead of staying stable. Making it unsuitable for handles. When you find a good piece, great!

But dont give up on trying to make a knife yourself. I bet even AG Russell "sucked" on his first attempts till he got the process down.

[Hartski]

Although ivory makes a pretty handle, I prefer handles more suited to combat, like wood wrapped with wire, ect.

An ivory handle would be damn slippery when covered in blood.

[Chipman]

Lucky you and a rare find.

Some Mammoth ivory can be rather brittle and full of age cracks so it breaks away in layers instead of staying stable. Making it unsuitable for handles. When you find a good piece, great!

But dont give up on trying to make a knife yourself. I bet even AG Russell "sucked" on his first attempts till he got the process down.

I know what you mean about the Ivory and the stuff they had was not of good quality but they had figured out a method to infuse, I think it was epoxy, into it and make it stronger and smooth. I wish I had paid better attention to that part but I didn't. Between you and me I would not have actually called it mammoth ivory, but hey to each his own.

[Hartski]

I know what you mean about the Ivory and the stuff they had was not of good quality but they had figured out a method to infuse, I think it was epoxy, into it and make it stronger and smooth. I wish I had paid better attention to that part but I didn't. Between you and me I would not have actually called it mammoth ivory, but hey to each his own.


Hey, a mammoth tusk is still a cool piece to put above your fireplace or something.

[Shike]

Lucky you and a rare find.

Some Mammoth ivory can be rather brittle and full of age cracks so it breaks away in layers instead of staying stable. Making it unsuitable for handles. When you find a good piece, great!

But dont give up on trying to make a knife yourself. I bet even AG Russell "sucked" on his first attempts till he got the process down.

I once visited someone in Phoenix who made blades. Your husband didn't used to play Ultima Online at all did he?

[Laurie]

No Shrike, my husband does not play computer games or use one personally. He prefers to leave computer stuff to me. However, he is a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism (http://www.sca.org) Been so since 1968. There was a big "War" this past February at Estrella Park outside of Phoenix.

But I do admin a PC game website (Runegame.com (http://www.runegame.com)) and have for the last six years. The game "RUNE" came out in Oct. 2000 and the developers are Human Head Studios. They are working on "Prey" right now.

Yes, that would make sense to stablize the ivory with epoxy or something like that. What my husband uses, outside of hardwoods, is sterilized cowbone or stag/elk horn for his handles.

[Hartski]

dammit, all this talk about knives today is making me want to get a new knife or 'hawk at the gun show this weekend.

[blood vs. water]

my father is a custom knife maker. unfortunately though, he has not had the time to work on any new ones in over a year.

[_STL_15_]

I'm interested in learning how. I met a custom knife maker in Florida in January and he explained a little about different techniques and showed me some of his work. He does some awesome Damascus blades. I think for starters, I'm going to try one out of an old sawmill blade, based on his recommendations. How did you make yours?
The First ones I made from Steel. I had a few peices so I cut them into pieces. Then I grinded the down until they were in shape. Carefully granded the blade on an angle. Then sharpened it. THe on I'm making now is steel to. But soon my Dad is having a friend get me some metal that supposed to keep a really nice edge. I think my next project is to make one like the guy had in "The Hunted". Also I'm looking to make a gut hook for next season. But I need to get my hands on some bigger files. I think it's a pretty good hobby. I use to make smoking pipes out of wood. All types. I'd spend a week or so on one pipe. Use to make money selling them.

[Chipman]

my father is a custom knife maker. unfortunately though, he has not had the time to work on any new ones in over a year.

Well maybe you have the knife making gene in you so you need to get him to pass on what he knows. It'll probably get his juices flowing again and you'll have some great memories and a few cut fingers to be proud of..
I know I would have loved to have gotten a few cut from fingers from working with my dad, hell, I would probably give up a finger or two, well not my trigger finger of course, but lesser fingers to have found out everything my dad knew before he passed.

[Hartski]

I made my own throwing stars when I was a kid, also. It took a couple years, but I got pretty damn good with throwing knives and stars. I even got pretty darn fair with a tomohawk. :cool:

[GREENFEATHER]

I made my own throwing stars when I was a kid, also. It took a couple years, but I got pretty damn good with throwing knives and stars. I even got pretty darn fair with a tomohawk. :cool:


You're starting to sound like a Ranger with all that tomahawk talk! :D I need to go get my stuff out of the saftey deposit box. I put my coin and hawk in there last year.

[blood vs. water]

Well maybe you have the knife making gene in you so you need to get him to pass on what he knows. It'll probably get his juices flowing again and you'll have some great memories and a few cut fingers to be proud of..
I know I would have loved to have gotten a few cut from fingers from working with my dad, hell, I would probably give up a finger or two, well not my trigger finger of course, but lesser fingers to have found out everything my dad knew before he passed.

i made one knife when i was around 14. back then i didnt really have the patience for it although maybe things have changed. time to dust off the old grinders and buffers and get the forge cranking.

[Chipman]

i made one knife when i was around 14. back then i didnt really have the patience for it although maybe things have changed. time to dust off the old grinders and buffers and get the forge cranking.

Reps to you my friend, you have already learned that the past does not equal the future, you'll go far.

[Laurie]

Our son wanted to help out his dad in the shop when he was about 13. So my husband started him out forging Civil War era metal tent stakes to learn using the forge and hammer. But our son wanted to get them "RIGHT" the first time and grew very frustrated that he couldnt. Gave up afterwhile. Trying too hard was his problem and just had not matured enough to learn patience.

He finally came back to forgework three years later but he grown more as a man and learned patience. It was then my husband put him to work hammering out axeheads, spearheads and daggerblades. He had the "eye" like his father to control his strikes and hammer a straight edge By the time the year was out, he was good enough to forgeout longer swordblades thus freeing up my husband for more finishwork or concentrate on other things.

When our son was a Junior in high school, "& Son" was added to the business name. Been that way ever since.

To hand down any craft from father to son. To see all those years of hardwon skills not die with you, Is important. It may be the only real tangible legacy your father will ever have to give you. As a son, you honor his memory and work.

When my husband first started making blades, he was 14 with no one to help him. For that matter NO One was was making historical swords or weaponry of any kind (this being the 1950s). Nothing like you see now and most of this came about with the interest in RennFaires and Living History reenactment in the past 25 years or so. Some of the makers who started out see my husband as a kind of mentor for his example in keeping alive a Craft long thought "dead'.

But, later, he met a couple of older guys who acted as mentors and taught him the "riddle of steel". One, Carl McCoy, was an old machinest who like making his own blackpowder rifles and quite a metalurgist. Because His son was not interested in what he did, Carl was willing to teach my husband quite a bit about different steels, tempering and a whole lot more. The other was Mexican blacksmith from Guadalahara who showed him a few things.

My husband took the knowledge they gave him to make what you see on our website. Both of those guys have long since died, but part of their legacy and knowledge was passed to my husband. Through our son, the swordmaker's Art will live on.

Something to consider, blood vs water.

[Hartski]

You're starting to sound like a Ranger with all that tomahawk talk! :D I need to go get my stuff out of the saftey deposit box. I put my coin and hawk in there last year.

I damn near bought a Cold Steel Vietnam style Hawk yesterday. It was one of only 2 Hawks at the gun show. The other one was a hand forged Damascus Hawk that was $300 :eek:

[Laurie]

I shouldnt wonder. Patternwelded billets are expensive because of the time and skills involved weaving the iron and steel rods together. Expecially if the maker is trying for a consistant pattern. Unless you get a "damascus" blade from a commerical outlet, a really good patternwelded blade by a custom maker is going to be expensive.

Generally, those billets are sold by the "inch". I dont know where Cold Steel gets theirs unless they make their own.

But there is an inherent weakness that if the forgewelding was not done properly, the woven sections can seperate. It was a expedient to provide a better blade steel than just iron. Alot of these had softer iron cores with the edges carbonized steel. But the carbon content was still not as high as regular steel blade. But there is alot of skill and artistry for everyone to admire.

Some 7th century AD Migration Age patternwelded swordblades were examined in the late 19th century and compared with slightly later late 8th Century AD Viking Age "Ulfberht" all steel blades. The Patternwelded blades had an average carbon content of 44% While the superior "Ulfberht" blades had 72%. These patternwelded blades were thicker too even with the groove, which were put there to help lighten the blade but still give it strength. (think of corregated iron)

[Hartski]

The "Damascus" 'hawk wasn't made by Cold Steel. It was hand forged by some guy.

Does your hubby make tomahawks? I'd be interested in seeing his designs and what he charges. No-one makes a Reverse French Cut Tomahawk. My former buddy has one, and he said it's the only one he knows of in the country.

[Laurie]

Yes, he doe and sent you a PM about this. These are made from Spring Steel.

What does this "Reverse French Cut Tomahawk" look like? We have a couple of books showing tomahawks (Petersons' "Edged Weapons of the American Revolution" that shows several different types)

[Hartski]

Well, I don't know if the Reverse French Cut Tomahawk is an actual style, or if my buddy just got a one-off Hawk that he made up a name for.

This is the closest pic I could find. Just flip this upside down and remove the "hammer" part, and it's like the one he had.

http://www.garyhendershott.com/productdetail.cfm?Key=1161

[Laurie]

As it is, that profile is based on a French "Biscaynne" Trading hawk but with the added "pole" to use it as a hammer. Cant miss that slight "roman nose" down drop. So what your friend did was reverse his so the upper edge leads to strike first.

I sent you a PM, by the way.

[Hartski]

As it is, that profile is based on a French "Biscaynne" Trading hawk but with the added "pole" to use it as a hammer. Cant miss that slight "roman nose" down drop. So what your friend did was reverse his so the upper edge leads to strike first.

I sent you a PM, by the way.

Yeah, I don't know if he just put it on upside down, or if it was made that way. What do you think is the best style for throwing?

[GREENFEATHER]

It will stick better if it is pointing straight out, that's the way the one Uncle Sam gave me is made. I need a new SF switchblade, that's the only piece I don't have right now.

[Laurie]

Your friend probably found it and stuck the head on that way. I have not seen many Biscaynne style trade hawks either except in books. But that doesnt mean there could be a few around. My husband made some for members of the American Mountain Man Association in the late 70s/early 80s who were looking for these.

So outside of a custom maker to make you one (or another style). That's about it. Most just make the more common styles out of iron. The same thing with the inexpensive commerical soft iron ones you see. It leaves most people thinking that's all there were.

Each one has it's own characteristics and it depends on your skill with alot of practice. Most of your power is in your upper back and shoulder with a fairly stiff wrist when throwing these at a certain distance. Or with any axe.

So it's knowing your distance and "eye". How much power to put in the throw... but not too much power or you will overthrow.. Knowing when to release and not "flip" it with a wrist movement when doing so. So "overhand" is best. About 21 paces or so. The purpose is for the axe to make one revolution in the air before sticking. This is something you would have to figure yourself with practice.

[Hartski]

I remember the first time I ever threw a Hawk. We went to a rondezvous for a field trip when I was in 5th grade. The other kids were trying to throw, but none of them even hit the target. I tried, and got the first one to stick. Then the second, and the third. The old guys couldn't believe it.

That's what sparked my interest in all weapons, especially throwing knives, tomahawks, ect.

[AlbinoGerbil]

Man, how did I miss this thread.

Some good stuff here.
The only knife I have made was a kit knife I bought. I know, doesn't count.
I have always been fascinated by the craftsmen and women who forge their blades.

Laurie,

You mentioned that your husband does not quench in water as it makes the steel brittle, I have read and heard about this. What does he use? I have read that maker will use different types of oil, animal fats, etc....
Does he differentially temper his blades. I had a bowie made from 5160 that was RC 58 on the cutting edge and softened up towards the spine(sorry can't remember to what degree it was rockwelled).
I had considered getting into knifemaking once or twice but never followed through due to personal commitments and lack of startup $$.
I still enjoy reading up on it and discussing this subject with like minded individuals.

[Radioactive Man]

Although ivory makes a pretty handle, I prefer handles more suited to combat, like wood wrapped with wire, ect.

An ivory handle would be damn slippery when covered in blood.

Damn, dude. I bet you're a hoot at weddings. Hehe.

And this is a cool topic. I'm interested in maybe making my own knives as well.

[Laurie]

You mentioned that your husband does not quench in water as it makes the steel brittle, I have read and heard about this. What does he use? I have read that maker will use different types of oil, animal fats, etc....

Yeah, there is alot of esoteric stuff about what blades are tempered with. With him, it is a combination of oils.

He does not use modern furnace Rockwell hardening techniques. So, what the numbers are I cannot say. It is by "eye", color and practice honing the skill. Parts of the blade go through annealling process after tempering. You dont what the area near the shoulders/tang to be the same as the blade. This helps allows a certain amount of "give" but not to be soft. There used to be an ad for Buck knives showing the temper was so hard, the edges could cut soft iron rivets.

Well what is the purpose of that? If an edge is that hard, it could chip if the blade is dropped or use. Too hard near the handle and it will snap. As you know, there is alot more to making a good knife than just a few whacks after taking it from the fire and sticking it into a vat.

[NuggzTheNinja]

Yes, he doe and sent you a PM about this. These are made from Spring Steel.

What does this "Reverse French Cut Tomahawk" look like? We have a couple of books showing tomahawks (Petersons' "Edged Weapons of the American Revolution" that shows several different types)

Would he ever consider making knives from non-classic materials?

I know, it sounds like heresy. :)

[Laurie]

He prefers not to use modern alloys like stainless if that is what you mean.

[Hartski]

Knowing Nuggz, he was probably thinking more along the lines of titanium or ceramics. :D

[Laurie]

Hehe. No, he will not use those either.

[Hartski]

I have a question for you, Laurie. What does Kirby use to polish the blades once he's done? I've been working on that cheap tomahawk for days with emery cloth, sandpaper, ect. and it's still quite a ways from being presentable.

(That's what I get for buying a cheap one, but it was for a good cause.)

[Laurie]

He aims for a "satin" finish rather than a highly reflective "chrome".

He uses a series of medium to fine grit sandpaper with a hand sander. Then, on a soft fiber wheel (too stiff and you put grooves in the piece) with a type of greasebased polishing compound from a Polishing Supplies company. This he orders special since what he used to use is no longer available commerically. Too many nowadays is too full of grease and not enough "stuff" to get a good polish. It is a kind of Stainless compound in a grey bar. He does not use emery or rouge.

But it depends on the metal the piece is made from.

[Hartski]

He aims for a "satin" finish rather than a highly reflective "chrome".

He uses a series of medium to fine grit sandpaper with a hand sander. Then, on a soft fiber wheel (too stiff and you put grooves in the piece) with a type of greasebased polishing compound from a Polishing Supplies company. This he orders special since what he used to use is no longer available commerically. Too many nowadays is too full of grease and not enough "stuff" to get a good polish. It is a kind of Stainless compound in a grey bar. He does not use emery or rouge.

But it depends on the metal the piece is made from.

Thanks. I was aiming for the satin type finish, too. All I know is that doing it by hand will take forever, so I need to get some buffing wheels for the angle grinder.

As for the polish, there's no shine like Mother's. :D