Clean and Jerk critique

[crackyflipside]

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Things I've noticed:

-I pull the bar way too high before I dive under

-When finishing the second pull, I need to drop my body into the bottom of the squat quickly to catch it better.

-In the jerk, my split needs to be wider, especially my left foot needs to go back further.

-I need to catch the jerk deeper.



Anything else you guys notice?

[J.L.C.]

Not bad at all!

There's a little hint of early arm bend on the clean and you could finish that extension a little 'harder' - stand all the way up straight before moving under the bar, SNAP into that final extension.

It looks like your hips might be rising a little early as well, once you get set in your start position, lock your torso - maintain the angle between torso and floor up until the final extension of the 2nd pull. The reason you're pulling the bar high is because the weight is light for you - not a big concern at this point.

Your chest sinks a bit on the catch, try to keep your head/chin up throughout the pull and the catch. You want to start the lift with a 'big chest' - imagine wearing a hockey/football jersey while lifting, we should be able to see your number when looking from the front. Catch the bar with the same 'big chest' - be confident.

It's hard to tell from the front, but it looks like you're catching the jerk forward - with your front delts and upper chest. You want to receive the bar with your arms back behind your ears - use your traps/upper back to lock the weight out, kind of like an overhead shrug.

[crackyflipside]

Not bad at all!

There's a little hint of early arm bend on the clean and you could finish that extension a little 'harder' - stand all the way up straight before moving under the bar, SNAP into that final extension.

Yeah, GoJu has told me to do that (finishing extension) but I can't get it right. He said to push hips forward at the end but it seems like there's more to it than that.


It looks like your hips might be rising a little early as well, once you get set in your start position, lock your torso - maintain the angle between torso and floor up until the final extension of the 2nd pull. The reason you're pulling the bar high is because the weight is light for you - not a big concern at this point.

Do you think doing work on Clean pulls will help that? My coach and teammates say the same thing. That I gotta work on a slow speed in the first pull and then accelerate it when the bar's around the knees.


Your chest sinks a bit on the catch, try to keep your head/chin up throughout the pull and the catch. You want to start the lift with a 'big chest' - imagine wearing a hockey/football jersey while lifting, we should be able to see your number when looking from the front. Catch the bar with the same 'big chest' - be confident.

Good point, I do feel like I let my elbows drop in the catch.


It's hard to tell from the front, but it looks like you're catching the jerk forward - with your front delts and upper chest. You want to receive the bar with your arms back behind your ears - use your traps/upper back to lock the weight out, kind of like an overhead shrug.

Yeah, I definitely do catch the jerk forward because I can't do the split jerk with higher weights near my max. How would I work on that, BTN split jerks?

[J.L.C.]

Yeah, GoJu has told me to do that (finishing extension) but I can't get it right. He said to push hips forward at the end but it seems like there's more to it than that.

I think of throwing the bar up - straight up - with my hips. You want to rattle the bar/plates with the explosion of the 2nd pull.



Do you think doing work on Clean pulls will help that? My coach and teammates say the same thing. That I gotta work on a slow speed in the first pull and then accelerate it when the bar's around the knees.

They might. I think working on pulls to mid thigh would help as well.

Set up like you would for a clean, and press the floor away using nothing by knee extension (straightening your legs) - like a leg press.

Keep your back arched and your shoulders in front/above the bar throughout.

Stop when you get to mid thigh, and pause there - shoulders still in front, back still arched

Then back to the floor and repeat.

It's tricky at first, kind of awkward - but a good 1st pull will set you up better and ultimately give you a much better 2nd pull.


Good point, I do feel like I let my elbows drop in the catch.

Keep that back arched - even on the catch. Your elbows are way too low in your avatar. Not only would the lift be disqualified if your elbows touch your knees, but you can end up with some serious wrist injuries.


Yeah, I definitely do catch the jerk forward because I can't do the split jerk with higher weights near my max. How would I work on that, BTN split jerks?

BTN jerks have helped me a lot. But when things get challenging I still revert to the old ingrained pattern of trying to incline press it - and you just can't save a lift like that.

You have to ingrain the right motor pattern of locking out with the right muscles. The best way to do that is to drill, drill, drill. Start with light weights until you're feeling solid, then challenge yourself with heavier weights. If you start pressing out, or having the bar out front, back off the weight and drill some more.

Unfortunately I don't have any 'tricks' - it just takes a ton of practice, more for some than others. I've been trying to jerk properly for over a year and still suck!

If you're working with a coach that will likely save you A LOT of frustration and wasted time!

Keep hammering and keep us posted!

[raffiki]

You are definitely not pushing your hips forward. You aren't even touching your thighs. You are probably keeping the bar too far out front. Can't tell from the view of course.

You want to keep the bar close. That means in the first pull you need push your hips BACK to get your knees out of the way. Immediately after it passes the knees, you need to push your hips FORWARD as fast as possible.

Technically the bar will move an a slight S pattern. However you want to think of moving the bar straight up, and keep your body moving around the bar. Try again with some more weight.

Nice bar!

[crackyflipside]

You are definitely not pushing your hips forward. You aren't even touching your thighs. You are probably keeping the bar too far out front. Can't tell from the view of course.

You want to keep the bar close. That means in the first pull you need push your hips BACK to get your knees out of the way. Immediately after it passes the knees, you need to push your hips FORWARD as fast as possible.

Technically the bar will move an a slight S pattern. However you want to think of moving the bar straight up, and keep your body moving around the bar. Try again with some more weight.

I know, I don't know how people hit their thighs with cleans!

I've noticed I focus on standing straight up when completing the second pull, is this why my hips don't drive forward?

You need to explain the whole hips pushing back and forth thing during the 1st and second pull. Do you mean lift my but up in the air in the first pull then bring it back forward?


Nice bar!

Was that sarcasm? lol

[raffiki]

Check out these pictures.

http://www.sportexpert.biz/wl/technique.htm

[BigLarge]

Technically the bar will move an a slight S pattern. However you want to think of moving the bar straight up, and keep your body moving around the bar. Try again with some more weight.

Nice bar!


This is an excellent way of describing it.

[UtahRocks]

I would like to see how you handle bigger weights. BTW, nice barbell :)

[crackyflipside]

I would like to see how you handle bigger weights. BTW, nice barbell :)


I'll get some vids of heavier weights this Saturday when I go to the coach's place. I have a tendency to powerclean when getting near my max, also.

Raffiki, thanks for the link, I will definitely study these images.

Why does everyone say it's a nice bar? The thing sounds like a creepy carnival ride whenever I use it, the coach has a real nice one with great bearings that just whirs when you clean it and the sleeve rotates.

[sway_dizzle]

kinda looks like your catching it then doing a front squat vs catching it in the squat position

[crackyflipside]

kinda looks like your catching it then doing a front squat vs catching it in the squat position

yeah I catch it high and drop down and bounce. I don't catch it and then do a front squat though, it's more like I'm already doing the front squat as I catch it. I think it may just be the issue that I'm starting the catch high.

[crackyflipside]

60kg

aos07SI9Bag



Here is 70kg but it was a bit sketchy. I'm relatively new to doing the split jerk. I could power jerk this with no problem though.

Q1_oJVb0ZNk

[Leathalx]

You're definetly not exploding the bar properly.

Keep it as close to the body as possible. When the bar passes the knee you need to drive your hips forward and hit the bar with your hips as hard as you possible can :D

It should probable be hitting just under the ballsack, just over the mid of the thigh. hit that **** hard. this will start your pull explosion. When pulling make sure, your are driving your elbows and pointing htem straight up, it looks like they're pointing back a bit in your vid, practice pulling hte bar to the chin like this, Explode it by Hitting it with your thighs and pull it up to your chin as close as possible to your body, Your torso should be errect through out.

Don't do the squat cleans with sucha low weight, get the powercleans right first, and then you will start feeling the need to squat clean the bar once the weight of the powerclean gets heavy enough.

Even though as I said you are supposed to pull the bar up to your chin, after the explosion, when doing real weight there is almost no pulling involved, its just a swift explosion. In your vids it kinda looks like you're pullin the bar.


On the jerks, you definetly lack balance and techique. I couldn't help you as much on the splits except keep trying different foot positions untill you you reech your perfect postion in which you don't loose balance(again use lighter weight)

It does however look like you're not getting undeer the bar and push pressing it.

maybe try squat jerks(is that what they're called? pyrros dimas style basically :P) instead for now, untill you get the foot positioning perfect in the split, but a little tip, in your first vid your toes aren't pointing right. the toes should be pointing in(heels out) especially the back foot, spread the weight out, on ALL 5 toes. maybe make your stance a bit wider as well..

[crackyflipside]

You're definetly not exploding the bar properly.

Keep it as close to the body as possible. When the bar passes the knee you need to drive your hips forward and hit the bar with your hips as hard as you possible can :D

It should probable be hitting just under the ballsack, just over the mid of the thigh. hit that **** hard. this will start your pull explosion. When pulling make sure, your are driving your elbows and pointing htem straight up, it looks like they're pointing back a bit in your vid, practice pulling hte bar to the chin like this, Explode it by Hitting it with your thighs and pull it up to your chin as close as possible to your body, Your torso should be errect through out.

Don't do the squat cleans with sucha low weight, get the powercleans right first, and then you will start feeling the need to squat clean the bar once the weight of the powerclean gets heavy enough.

Even though as I said you are supposed to pull the bar up to your chin, after the explosion, when doing real weight there is almost no pulling involved, its just a swift explosion. In your vids it kinda looks like you're pullin the bar.


On the jerks, you definetly lack balance and techique. I couldn't help you as much on the splits except keep trying different foot positions untill you you reech your perfect postion in which you don't loose balance(again use lighter weight)

It does however look like you're not getting undeer the bar and push pressing it.

maybe try squat jerks(is that what they're called? pyrros dimas style basically :P) instead for now, untill you get the foot positioning perfect in the split, but a little tip, in your first vid your toes aren't pointing right. the toes should be pointing in(heels out) especially the back foot, spread the weight out, on ALL 5 toes. maybe make your stance a bit wider as well..

yeah, I'm still trying to work out why the bar never hits there in cleans yet it always hits when I do the snatch.

I can powerclean more than I can full clean and more than I can front squat if that gives you some perspective. (90kg) I think part of the problem is I haven't been training with heavier weights to force myself to full clean.

The split jerk is very new to me so that needs plenty of work.

[madaozeki]

Keep it as close to the body as possible.

Yes, definitely.



When the bar passes the knee you need to drive your hips forward and hit the bar with your hips as hard as you possible can

No no no. This should NEVER be something you TRY to do actively. Some lifters lift that way and some don't - it depends on your personal leverages. If you actively try to hit the bar with your thighs (or hips, or whatever), you'll more than likely kick the bar out front and send the bar on a highly undesirable bar path.

What you should be thinking instead is once the bar passes the knees, try to finish standing up strong, hard, accelerating until you're fully upright. This has nothing to do with 'hitting' the bar. Bad bad technique!! Hitting is a by-product of good technique for some, NOT something to strive towards. Some of the best lifters in the world merely brush the bar against their thighs.



It should probable be hitting just under the ballsack, just over the mid of the thigh. hit that **** hard.

Again, please don't actively try to do this! You'll screw up your form beyond recognition :)



When pulling make sure, your are driving your elbows and pointing htem straight up, it looks like they're pointing back a bit in your vid, practice pulling the bar to the chin like this

No active pulling with your arms. All momentum should be generated by the act of standing up hard. The chin is an awful target to shoot for, especially if you're trying to do full cleans. The bar should never go higher than your chest, and if you're very efficient, just to your belly button.



Don't do the squat cleans with sucha low weight, get the powercleans right first, and then you will start feeling the need to squat clean the bar once the weight of the powerclean gets heavy enough.

This is the opposite of how the vast majority of Olympic coaches teach. Powercleans are an accessory exercise to give the legs some rest while still working the pull. Learn to squat clean first, and powercleans will be easy. Learn powercleans first and you may never be able to squat clean properly.



Even though as I said you are supposed to pull the bar up to your chin, after the explosion, when doing real weight there is almost no pulling involved, its just a swift explosion. In your vids it kinda looks like you're pullin the bar.

Sure, so never have a 'pulling' mentality to begin with and you'll be better off.

[JeepCreeper]

You should also get a video from the side and check the bars path in relation to your body. I still notice the pre-mature arm bending. You should be at full body extension with your arms straight.

[Leathalx]

No no no. This should NEVER be something you TRY to do actively. Some lifters lift that way and some don't - it depends on your personal leverages. If you actively try to hit the bar with your thighs (or hips, or whatever), you'll more than likely kick the bar out front and send the bar on a highly undesirable bar path.

What you should be thinking instead is once the bar passes the knees, try to finish standing up strong, hard, accelerating until you're fully upright. This has nothing to do with 'hitting' the bar. Bad bad technique!! Hitting is a by-product of good technique for some, NOT something to strive towards. Some of the best lifters in the world merely brush the bar against their thighs.


They hit that **** as hard as they can, I agree it should be done by standing up properly and straight, but it does generate a lot of power and should always be strived for, while being done properly. you pull with your back to make it upright, lock out your knees and hips and stand on your toes, while doing this the bar should be hitting the thighs. because to do all that you need to force your hips forward.




No active pulling with your arms. All momentum should be generated by the act of standing up hard. The chin is an awful target to shoot for, especially if you're trying to do full cleans. The bar should never go higher than your chest, and if you're very efficient, just to your belly button.

When you are training for form thats is what you should be doing, once you get used to that and start doing loads of weight, you only try to pull with your arms and to the chin for a split second when you explode the bad, this is where your force should be aiming. In reality you will not be doing any real pulling, and the bar will explode, but it should explode with aims to achieve that.


This is the opposite of how the vast majority of Olympic coaches teach. Powercleans are an accessory exercise to give the legs some rest while still working the pull. Learn to squat clean first, and powercleans will be easy. Learn powercleans first and you may never be able to squat clean properly.

I don't know about this one. IMO as long as you do front squats. you should learn to powerclean first as it is easier, this will teach you the proper form, once you get that right, there isn't anything special to the squat clean, you do the same but you get under the bar, because you can't power the weight up as much.

what crackyflupside is doing is powercleaning the weight and then just squating down with it anyway, with a proper squat clean however as soon as you catch that weight you should accelerate into it and go up straight away.

also make sure you roll your wrists in towards your body when you explode

[madaozeki]

They hit that **** as hard as they can, I agree it should be done by standing up properly and straight, but it does generate a lot of power
Bashing the bar against your thighs generates no extra power. If anything, it slows the bar down. Lifters who do this have certain leverages that make this a BY-PRODUCT of lifting explosively, not something they are actively TRYING to do. The VAST majority of accomplished lifters have no thigh 'bang' at all - rather merely a thigh brush.



When you are training for form thats is what you should be doing, once you get used to that and start doing loads of weight, you only try to pull with your arms and to the chin for a split second when you explode the bad, this is where your force should be aiming. In reality you will not be doing any real pulling, and the bar will explode, but it should explode with aims to achieve that.

Well, we'll have to disagree on this one. In proper Olympic-style lifting, there is NO active pulling with the arms - rather, you'll kill power transfer to the bar if they bend. There's no reason to get the bar to your chin. If it goes up that high, fine, but arms have nothing to do with it. That being said, I believe it's backwards thinking to even put thoughts of arm-pull into your mind while lifting, when you should rather be trying to relax them as much as possible.



I don't know about this one. IMO as long as you do front squats. you should learn to powerclean first as it is easier, this will teach you the proper form, once you get that right, there isn't anything special to the squat clean, you do the same but you get under the bar, because you can't power the weight up as much
Well, it might depend on your particular learning situation. If you're lifting on a football team with 50 other guys in a weight room and trying to learn as fast as possible, then learning powercleans first can be a 'shortcut', although usually they aren't properly taught to begin with.

In general, learning squat cleans first is FAR more efficient than learning powercleans first. You won't develop bad habits, you won't be afraid to jump under big weights, you won't have any psychological barriers to overcome. Squat cleans are easy to learn. There's really no excuse to hold off learning them unless the coach doesn't know what he's doing... Doesn't matter who you are or what your training goals are.

[JeepCreeper]

Some of the WORST form I've seen in powercleans are high school footballers. Lucky for them they are young and resilient. :)

[Leathalx]

Bashing the bar against your thighs generates no extra power. If anything, it slows the bar down. Lifters who do this have certain leverages that make this a BY-PRODUCT of lifting explosively, not something they are actively TRYING to do. The VAST majority of accomplished lifters have no thigh 'bang' at all - rather merely a thigh brush.
.

gsXY7KxegAc

I could find loads of videos from the side like this one just can't be bothered to. they all hit that bar harder then they hit their first woman.

and if there isn't any pulling involved, how the hell are you supposed to drive the bar up? just shrug it and hope it flies up. Ofcourse there is pulling involved. even in that vid if you concentrate you can see taranenko pointing his elbows up on the pull and trying to drive the bar up to his chin, but obviosly because of the weight it moved only a few inches as he got under it and force his elbows out straight away

[madaozeki]

[youtube]gsXY7KxegAc
I could find loads of videos from the side like this one just can't be bothered to. they all hit that bar harder then they hit their first woman.

and if there isn't any pulling involved, how the hell are you supposed to drive the bar up? just shrug it and hope it flies up. Ofcourse there is pulling involved. even in that vid if you concentrate you can see taranenko pointing his elbows up on the pull and trying to drive the bar up to his chin, but obviosly because of the weight it moved only a few inches as he got under it and force his elbows out straight away

You're misinterpreting what you see because you're expecting to see a thigh bang. In this video, notice how he actually moves BACK after contact with the bar. The contact looks like a bang because he's so explosive, but there's actually very little contact on this lift, and NO bang against the bar. If there was, he would have driven the bar out of the proper path. It's a myth propagated by poor athletic coaches that a bang is necessary, or even useful at all. It's all an optical illusion :)

Pointing the elbows up is a by-product of whipping the elbows around as fast as possible to get the bar into the rack position before gravity takes over and makes you lose the bar. ALL the momentum is generated by the legs, back and hips. NONE with the arms. Trust me, he can't add anything with his arms to that pull that hasn't already been done by his much stronger muscles!!! If he was pulling with his arms, he certainly wouldn't be able to move his arms around so rapidly :)

Remember, 'pull' doesn't imply using the arms. In powerlifting, a pull doesn't require any direct arm pulling - same in Olympic lifting :)

[r_graz]

Pointing the elbows up is a by-product of whipping the elbows around as fast as possible to get the bar into the rack position before gravity takes over and makes you lose the bar. ALL the momentum is generated by the legs, back and hips. NONE with the arms. Trust me, he can't add anything with his arms to that pull that hasn't already been done by his much stronger muscles!!! If he was pulling with his arms, he certainly wouldn't be able to move his arms around so rapidly :)

Sorry for a newbish question, but assuming that, at full extension, the bar is just a bit above his belt line, what action is responsible for getting him down under the bar quickly? Is he not "pulling" himself under the bar? And wouldn't the arms at least contribute to that movement? I know the arms aren't supposed to be bending prior to the triple extension being completed, but it seems that after that they'd need to do some work to help the lifter get under the bar to receive it.

[crackyflipside]

Thanks for all the new info guys, although some of it is conflicting :p

So I gotta focus on not bending my arms. I recently powercleaned 90kg with almost no knee-bend at all. I've noticed my arms bend the worst right on the top after finishing the final shrug because I do physically pull the bar upwards after the shrug and then whip my elbows under the bar. When I went for 100kg I pulled the weight to above my chest because of the arm bend.

[madaozeki]

Sorry for a newbish question, but assuming that, at full extension, the bar is just a bit above his belt line, what action is responsible for getting him down under the bar quickly? Is he not "pulling" himself under the bar? And wouldn't the arms at least contribute to that movement? I know the arms aren't supposed to be bending prior to the triple extension being completed, but it seems that after that they'd need to do some work to help the lifter get under the bar to receive it.

The term "pull yourself under the bar" is often used to describe the motion, because that's what it looks like in fast motion, but really all you're doing is jumping DOWN fast, like say if you're standing in a room and someone walks through the door blasting a machine-gun; you'd be on the floor in a flash! Same idea for cleans. Once you've finished exploding, you change direction and jump down. The arms can't be "pulling" at this point since they're moving around the bar as your body lowers into position.


Thanks for all the new info guys, although some of it is conflicting :p

So I gotta focus on not bending my arms. I recently powercleaned 90kg with almost no knee-bend at all. I've noticed my arms bend the worst right on the top after finishing the final shrug because I do physically pull the bar upwards after the shrug and then whip my elbows under the bar. When I went for 100kg I pulled the weight to above my chest because of the arm bend.

Yup. If you can get rid of the arm bend, you'll have that much more "pop" at the top of the pull, and the bar will snap up like this:

lLdfrUG-dYQ

Then 100kg will feel like child's play :)

Powercleans in general should be fast, explosive lifts, and not feel particularly taxing, since there's no squat involved.

[GoJu]

Thanks for all the new info guys, although some of it is conflicting :p

So I gotta focus on not bending my arms. I recently powercleaned 90kg with almost no knee-bend at all. I've noticed my arms bend the worst right on the top after finishing the final shrug because I do physically pull the bar upwards after the shrug and then whip my elbows under the bar. When I went for 100kg I pulled the weight to above my chest because of the arm bend.

you also gotta get that front squat of yours over 90k ;)

[Leathalx]

Whats the most you've seen lifted, just your general experience with the lifting?

Not trying to turn this into an argument of who has more knowledge/experience or anything...

[madaozeki]

Whats the most you've seen lifted, just your general experience with the lifting?

Not trying to turn this into an argument of who has more knowledge/experience or anything...

Seen lifted? Live? I've trained (briefly) with some of the currently top-ranked lifters in the U.S. - 136lb lifter C+J'ing 308lbs, 170lb lifter C+J'ing 400lbs, snatching 330. I've seen 200kg (440lb) C+J's in competition. I've been coached by some of the most respected coaches in the U.S.

I'm also friends with tons of lifters from all over the world in various weight classes, who have competed at the national level and internationally. We have a great community on another website. JLC, Raffiki, GoJu, and others are on that site too and can vouch for me if they so choose :)

Also, I've trained with 2 world-record holders (1 former, 1 current) on a regular basis and been coached by their coach, who was also the coach of the 1st woman to C+J 300lbs (another former world-record holder).

In other strength-related sports, I've trained with world-class powerlifters, strongmen, and a highland games competitor who was also a former World's Strongest Man competitor and can still split powersnatch 135kg (300lbs) from the hang.

I don't claim to be a great lifter, but I'm pretty confident in being able to spot technical flaws, work with lifters on improving their form, and coaching athletes from all sports on improving their Olympic lifts :) It's MUCH easier when you're in the same room as the person, but I do what I can on-line.

In non-Olympic movements, I've trained next to 700lb+ raw squatters and deadlifters, and 500lb+ benchers.

Check out my videos on YouTube if you want to see my own lifts :) (madaozeki) I've posted a few of them here.

And I have no interest in arguing. Just stating my opinions (sometimes jarringly - my apologies for that! I've just seen too many lifters waste too much time, especially when they've been 'trained' by football coaches, personal trainers, or athletes from other strength sports) and letting people take them for what they're worth.

[J.L.C.]

I'm also friends with tons of lifters from all over the world in various weight classes, who have competed at the national level and internationally. We have a great community on another website. JLC, Raffiki, GoJu, and others are on that site too and can vouch for me if they so choose :)


I think your posts in this thread alone clearly demonstrate your knowledge and experience in the sport.

But...I can also say that madaozeki has helped me TREMENDOUSLY since I undertook the sport of weightlifting. Through youtube, on the other site, and now over here as well.

There's really no debate here. If you bash the bar off the thighs, all you're going to accomplish is a poor trajectory and likely a lost lift. As an aside, the clean got it's name from the original rules of the sport; the lifter was not permitted to contact the bar with any part of the body until it was racked on the shoulders :)

I have also seen a number of coaches (the majority) recommend leaving the power versions out of training, at least until the full lifts can be performed consistently with proper technique. I started on my own, teaching myself power cleans, and I am still trying to unlearn the bad habits over a year later!

[r_graz]

I don't claim to be a great lifter, but I'm pretty confident in being able to spot technical flaws, work with lifters on improving their form, and coaching athletes from all sports on improving their Olympic lifts :) It's MUCH easier when you're in the same room as the person, but I do what I can on-line.
Well, I'd sure appreciated if you can help steer me on the right path. As I said in another thread, I'm only doing power cleans and power snatches right now, but any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. I just posted some vids of my workout today in my journal, here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=125915071&postcount=769

I'm pretty used to, er...."detail oriented" critiques, so don't be concerned about hurting any feelings. I know I make half a million mistakes at this point ;)

[GoJu]

Seen lifted? Live? I've trained (briefly) with some of the currently top-ranked lifters in the U.S. - 136lb lifter C+J'ing 308lbs, 170lb lifter C+J'ing 400lbs, snatching 330. I've seen 200kg (440lb) C+J's in competition. I've been coached by some of the most respected coaches in the U.S.

I'm also friends with tons of lifters from all over the world in various weight classes, who have competed at the national level and internationally. We have a great community on another website. JLC, Raffiki, GoJu, and others are on that site too and can vouch for me if they so choose :)

Also, I've trained with 2 world-record holders (1 former, 1 current) on a regular basis and been coached by their coach, who was also the coach of the 1st woman to C+J 300lbs (another former world-record holder).

In other strength-related sports, I've trained with world-class powerlifters, strongmen, and a highland games competitor who was also a former World's Strongest Man competitor and can still split powersnatch 135kg (300lbs) from the hang.

I don't claim to be a great lifter, but I'm pretty confident in being able to spot technical flaws, work with lifters on improving their form, and coaching athletes from all sports on improving their Olympic lifts :) It's MUCH easier when you're in the same room as the person, but I do what I can on-line.

In non-Olympic movements, I've trained next to 700lb+ raw squatters and deadlifters, and 500lb+ benchers.

Check out my videos on YouTube if you want to see my own lifts :) (madaozeki) I've posted a few of them here.

And I have no interest in arguing. Just stating my opinions (sometimes jarringly - my apologies for that! I've just seen too many lifters waste too much time, especially when they've been 'trained' by football coaches, personal trainers, or athletes from other strength sports) and letting people take them for what they're worth.

just don't turn into ParamountFitness part II mezzie! ;)

mezzie (as is madeozeki is known as on fortified-iron forums) definetly knows his stuff.

I hope to be able to lift what he does with as clean a form as he's got some day and I outweigh him by at least 40lbs, lol.

[madaozeki]

just don't turn into ParamountFitness part II mezzie! ;)

I learned a lot from that experience and will NEVER go down that path again ;)



mezzie (as is madeozeki is known as on fortified-iron forums) definetly knows his stuff.

I hope to be able to lift what he does with as clean a form as he's got some day and I outweigh him by at least 40lbs, lol.

You lost 25lbs? I think you outweigh me by 55-65lbs most days ;)

[madaozeki]

I think your posts in this thread alone clearly demonstrate your knowledge and experience in the sport.

But...I can also say that madaozeki has helped me TREMENDOUSLY since I undertook the sport of weightlifting. Through youtube, on the other site, and now over here as well.

There's really no debate here. If you bash the bar off the thighs, all you're going to accomplish is a poor trajectory and likely a lost lift. As an aside, the clean got it's name from the original rules of the sport; the lifter was not permitted to contact the bar with any part of the body until it was racked on the shoulders :)

I have also seen a number of coaches (the majority) recommend leaving the power versions out of training, at least until the full lifts can be performed consistently with proper technique. I started on my own, teaching myself power cleans, and I am still trying to unlearn the bad habits over a year later!

And now that your form is getting rock-solid, you'll be lifting beastly weights before you know it! :D


Well, I'd sure appreciated if you can help steer me on the right path. As I said in another thread, I'm only doing power cleans and power snatches right now, but any advice you can give would be greatly appreciated. I just posted some vids of my workout today in my journal, here:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=125915071&postcount=769

I'm pretty used to, er...."detail oriented" critiques, so don't be concerned about hurting any feelings. I know I make half a million mistakes at this point ;)

I'll see what I can do, and if I'm in over my head, I'll point you in the right direction for good advice!

[Leathalx]

Madaozeki.

I watched a few of your vids, and realised that you also have the hit on the thigh. And I do agree that its not the actuall hit that generetes the power(even though can add a little bit). Say like for me, I would never be able to explode in the clean or the snatch without thrusting my hips forward and actually hitting the bar, Just straightening out explosively would not work for me, it just felt really unnatural. And after hitting the bar over and over I finally got into the groove.

The path of the bar wouldn't be skewed by the hit because of the trying to point the elbows up thing.

If you look at r_graz video thats exactly what he's not doing. He pulls the bar and then kind of whips his arms under in kind of a curl motion, his elbows go back, and wrists up. Instead he should be thinking about getting his elbows pointing up, untill whipping his elbows under the bar in a swift explosive movement.

As I said before you don't actually row or pull the bar. thats just the direction your arms go. This insures the proper direction of the bar and as R_graz pointed out can help you getting under the bar by "pulling" yourself under it.

By pulling I mean getting under in a good path.

Not trying to argue here or proove you wrong. Just get a little discussion going :)

[J.L.C.]

Not trying to argue here or proove you wrong. Just get a little discussion going :)

Maybe you could list your experience/credentials as well.

How things look can be deceiving, especially if you're basing impressions off of low-quality youtube videos.

Arthur Drechsler's Weightlifting Encyclopedia, with the accompanying DVD is one of the best weightlifting purchases I've made.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D78ZJD44L._SS500_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/Weightlifting-Encyclopedia-Guide-World-Performance/dp/0965917924/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202339090&sr=8-1

[slyng]

I can also vouch for mezzie - he has given me a lot of very useful tips and is a good and smart lifter.

Also, I can say that throughout the development and progression of my technique on both cleans and snatches, both deliberate and unintentional thigh-hitting have been sources of technical PROBLEMS for me.

My technique still needs a lot of work but has improved drastically over the past year - and contacting my thighs is NOT something I consciously attempt to do.

These days, if I really bash my thighs as opposed to just contacting them, it usually results in a missed or poor lift with the bar swinging away from me out front.

I could show you videos of my lifts past and present and you'd see what I mean.

[madaozeki]

Leathal, it's hard to get things across in this forum unfortunately... learning in person is by far the best!

I have had a problem (like slyng) in the past with excessive banging of the bar, but not in the clean - in my case, I'd hit the crap out of the bar on my snatches. So badly to point where I'd get deep bruises on my hip bones and quiver at the thought of heavy snatches. Sometimes it would be OK, in that the bar path wouldn't be altered too much, but often I'd end up kicking it out front and the bar would loop up and around, and I'd lose it behind. My coach worked with me to correct that flaw, and I've done my best to overcome it, not always with success.

Again, the thigh bang (or in my case, hip bang since the bar hits higher in the snatch) is a by-product of the pull, not something to strive towards. Different lifters will be successful with different degrees of it. Some merely brush, while others bang quite a bit. In no case should any lifter TRY to ACTIVELY bang the bar. That's really my main point. Whether it happens or not is a function of individual leverages and specific technique. Some pull straight up, while some pull up and back, pushing their hips further forward than others. And just to clarify, from a physics perspective, the contact with the bar CAN'T have any positive effect on the actual explosion, in that the goal is to drive the bar UPWARDS, not FORWARDS. Whether you can generate more explosiveness with more hip thrust (and thus more contact) is a completely different matter, and I fully believe you when you say you generate more explosion by "banging" the bar. I just don't think it's a direct RESULT of the banging. I just believe the banging is a by-product of (in your case) a more explosive pull. It's not cause and effect, it's just correlation :)

In general, the most efficient technique for a lifter is the technique that allows him or her to hit the proper positions safely and rapidly. If that means you lean back when you straighten up, causing thigh bang, so be it. Psychologically, it shouldn't be something a lifter actively focuses on.

I think we agree about the arm pull - we're just expressing it in different ways :)

Also, I couldn't care less about your credentials - productive discussion can be had with people of varying levels of experience and ability :) You could be an Olympic gold-medallist and still not have a clue how you do what you do, or you could be an armchair lifter who has been around elite lifters your whole life and have internalized perfect technique and are brilliant at coaching...

Both slyng and JLC have come a LONG way over the past several months. It's really quite amazing seeing their progress in their vids!!! Highly recommended :)

[creb]

Why do people keep saying the bar is hitting the thigh? I realize that's what I thought I was seeing but it isn't what is happening. Whether the bar stays in full contact with the leg all the way up, I don't know but I have noticed a little hop to get around the knee in some lifters. Perhaps this gives the impression that it's bouncing off.

So, the bar slides up the leg from the knee (second pull) and then it comes off the leg and shoots up. Failing that, the bar is just going to continue sliding up until it is level with the hips.

Perhaps the leverages are most favorable as the bar is half way up the leg for a full extension. Maybe the bar comes off the leg because the lifter is reversing direction at this point, but anyway enough with the thigh bang already because the bar isn't hitting the thigh, it's coming off the leg for some reason.

[J.L.C.]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2069/2172628983_3a746a78ba_o_d.jpg

[Leathalx]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2069/2172628983_3a746a78ba_o_d.jpg

lmao thats a very fine line he's walkin on. and Look how he digs into the bar.

I definetly agree with you mada that the actual bang of the bar will not put any productive energy into it whatsoever.

The way I see it though.
The harder you hit the bar the more explosively you are basically driving your hips forward and straightening yourself out. I could never EVER(unless with **** loads of practive) get my body to explosively straighten out like that and thrust my hips forward. I a way, when you bang the bar, the bar stops your hips from coming forward from the thrust so you don't have to worry about stoping at a certain point.


BTW I also had huge feckin bruises on my legs when i was trying to get into the groove of thigh banging properly and no that I think about it, Whenever I banged it to much and concentrated on banging it to much, the form did feel off, and i had to get into the groove of actually banging as I straightened out. This was the worst with snatches and I just couldn't get the proper feel for the movement.

So it is a very Phsycological thing really..

And imo if done correctly won't effect your form and technique.

[J.L.C.]

I posted the pic to show his high point of contact. A high point of initial contact is something I strive for on the lifts (as close to the hips as possible). If the lifter in the pic had bashed the bar off of his thighs, he wouldn't have it in so tight to the hip joint/crease.

I think about staying tight, upright and extending the knees as much as possible before contacting the bar. That way, when my thighs come through, the bar has already cleared them - so I don't bash the bar and push it out front.

If you're bashing the thighs and getting bruises, it might be worth doing some technique work to make things more efficient and comfortable