IGF-1 research

[Big Cat]

I'm currently working on a few long-term projects. The one I'm most fond of involves the research of IGF-1. My research is focusing both on maximizing natural amounts of IGF-1 and exogenously controlling IGF-1 with GH/slin/T3. I would like to open this thread and see if anyone at any time has any additions to make in regards to studies. Specifically i'm looking for studies and scientific reference articles on :

- IGF-1 and its mechanisms
- the influence of insulin on IGF-1 and its binding proteins
- The influence of insulin on GH and vice versa
- the effect of GH and IGF-1 on Thyroid hormones and vice versa
- The effect of IGF-1 on androgens

While I have been on this for some time and will be for some time to come, I always fear there are some things I overlooked. Especially with extensive and not so clear material as this. So any serious contribution is welcomed.

[WanaKnowMore]

hay bro,
Here is a really good article that I found.
Just thought I would post it ..
http://musclemonthly.com/articles/010201/010201-haycock-howz-it-work.htm

for the ladies that are interested in GH
http://musclemonthly.com/articles/0107/010701-ullis-hormone-replacement-therapy.htm

one more.
http://musclemonthly.com/articles/0109/010901-ullis-hormone-replacement-therapy.htm

well just thought I would put this out.. enjoy :)

[Mr Grizzly]

bump for Big Cat ^

[WanaKnowMore]

BUMP..

[Big Cat]

Bump

Thanx to wannaknowmore, that particular article didn't have much I could use, but it got me to remember musclemonthly and browsing through some back articles on insulin mimickers by Bryan haycock I was able to locate some studies that were crucial.

I believe I may have found what I was looking for. The natural magic bullet to at least elevate IGF-1 somewhat. Still have lots of research to do to fill in the blanks however.

[WanaKnowMore]

good luck bro.
I for one am looking forward to the research that you are doing. I was wondering.. would you also parallel the differences between GH & Slin and GH & test
From what I have read the combo's are for different reasons.

[Big Cat]

Gh increase IGF-1 production, but you need insulin to release IGFBP-3, the primary transport molecule for IGF-1. Which is why the two are used in conjunction (they shut each others natural production down). With slin and test, the slin has the purpose of getting more nutrients in the cell for protein synthesis. IGF-1 is the only hormone capable of producing hyperplasia, turning sattelite cells into muscle cells and creating new sattelite cells. Then steroid are needed to hypertrophy the new muscle cells. And that's how muscle is built.

IGF-1 is also capable of inducing growth in the tissue it is injected too. So forget synthol, inject 500 µg of IGF-1 into your lagging rear delts, then set a shot of insulin and watch them grow. i've pretty much narrowed down how it works with exogenous administration.

[Mr Grizzly]

hey big cat, dont flame me, but i've read a lot about igf-1 but i never new what it stood for

is it internal growth factor 1?

thanks bro

also when you are talking with someone what do you say I.G.F.-one or the long name??

[Big Cat]

I just say IGF-1. It stands for insulin-like growth factor I.

[Mr Grizzly]

thanks bro

[Dolan99]

So Big Cat are you going to let anybody in on this theory of yours about elevating IGF-1 levels (Natrually since it is ****ing impossible to come by)? Maybe we can help you wout in the research :)

[WanaKnowMore]

sounds like we could have a GH/Slin/IGF-1/Test cocktail in the future.
THis would be interesting to hear about because all of the GH/Slin cycles that I have seen are 6 months in duration. I would be interested to know how the test could factor into this kind of cycle.

[Guy]

On cuttingedgemuscle I think Nandi osted an article that was called "Poor man's IGF-1"

Its suppose to boost Igf-1 levels with insulin.Didnt have have time to read it all but it looked very interrested.

I am extremely impatient to find out your theory....


I'll be using Igf-1 in the next month........I already did my research.....

I think I already posted the studies I was reading.Try doing a search on IGF-1 info.


Hope I helped a bit.

P.S. If you cant find it PM me and I'll send it to you.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dolan99
So Big Cat are you going to let anybody in on this theory of yours about elevating IGF-1 levels (Natrually since it is ****ing impossible to come by)? Maybe we can help you wout in the research :)

Not until I make sure there are no more holes in my theory. As PA painfully pointed out, there are one or two concepts that I need to get a better grasp on to verify my theory.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by WanaKnowMore
sounds like we could have a GH/Slin/IGF-1/Test cocktail in the future.
THis would be interesting to hear about because all of the GH/Slin cycles that I have seen are 6 months in duration. I would be interested to know how the test could factor into this kind of cycle.

GH/slin cycles, when administered correctly could easily pay off in 10-15 weeks. trust me on that. And even with moderate doses like 6/10. When doing this, there isn't much point administering IGF-1 since the purpose of the GH here is to increase IGF-1, a pathay I fear may be shut down with administration of IGF-1.

The other means is to use IGF-1 for local growth, and stacking it with insulin to potentiate it. But as was pointed out, IGF-1 is very hard to come by.

Where test factors in is the hypertrophy process. IGF-1 causes hyperplasia in cells, turning sattelite cells into new muscle cells and creating new sattelite cells. These new muscle cells will not initially have much size and won't make such a crucial impact. This is why many people think its necessary to use GH for so long, because it takes a while to SEE the results. But in actuality, administering test would increase protein synthesis and stimulate the hypertrophy of the new cells. Which is why I advocate 12 on/12 off cycles and the use of GH/slin or IGF-1/slin during the 12 weeks off to maintain and increase size.

I have a very extensive article on safely using steroids to promote health that should be published as soon as Ryan and I settle some business that has been dragging of for half a year now.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Guy
On cuttingedgemuscle I think Nandi osted an article that was called "Poor man's IGF-1"

Its suppose to boost Igf-1 levels with insulin.Didnt have have time to read it all but it looked very interrested.

Insulin shuts down GH. GH is needed to manufacture IGF-1 in liver and muscle cells. So without GH slin won't do much to increase IGF-1. And GH is just as expensive.

I am extremely impatient to find out your theory....

My theory is a natural loophole to increase IGF-1. If it checks out like I feel it will, then it would be the best supplement ever created. But I'm no idiot, the body isn't so easily influenced by nutritional factors alone, so don't expect anything with steroid like potency. It will never compare to test or GH/slin. Not by a very long shot. But the supplement I'm eying at also increases the level of 3 separate neurotransmitters, increase the insulin bound uptake of protein and glycogen, the sodium bound uptake of creatine, ATP production and recovery, muscle volumizing, it will strengthen bone and cartilage, decrease lactic acid build-up, improve muscle contraction and prevent cramping and hopefully, although this may just be dreaming, limit the amount of fat gained during the bulking process.

I'll be using Igf-1 in the next month........I already did my research.....

Well take heed of what I said above, you can use it to locally inject into a muscle, and then add insulin any old where to cause local growth in tissues. This seems to be the main advantage of IGF-1 over GH.

[WanaKnowMore]

Originally posted by Big Cat

Where test factors in is the hypertrophy process. IGF-1 causes hyperplasia in cells, turning sattelite cells into new muscle cells and creating new sattelite cells. These new muscle cells will not initially have much size and won't make such a crucial impact. This is why many people think its necessary to use GH for so long, because it takes a while to SEE the results. But in actuality, administering test would increase protein synthesis and stimulate the hypertrophy of the new cells. Which is why I advocate 12 on/12 off cycles and the use of GH/slin or IGF-1/slin during the 12 weeks off to maintain and increase size.


This may be a stupid question but as far as the protein synthesis wouldn't d-bol give the same result and faster? And as far as the new muscle cells that the IGF-1 would create, I know that d-bol will also help in the creation of new muscle tissue. I am wondering how well d-bol could factor into the gh/slin combo

thanks for all the info Big Cat. I am sure that we will be talking about this alot more!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by WanaKnowMore
This may be a stupid question but as far as the protein synthesis wouldn't d-bol give the same result and faster? And as far as the new muscle cells that the IGF-1 would create, I know that d-bol will also help in the creation of new muscle tissue. I am wondering how well d-bol could factor into the gh/slin combo


What makes you say Dbol will help in the creation of new muscle tissue ? Do you have any evidence to support that ?

And test is a better anabolic than Dbol. Although estrogen is a contributing factor, androgenic action is still the primary mechanism of AAS. Hence testosterone would be far better suited than most steroids for this purpose. With the possible exception of MENT.

[WanaKnowMore]

Originally posted by Big Cat
What makes you say Dbol will help in the creation of new muscle tissue ? Do you have any evidence to support that ?


Dianabol (1 7-alpha-methyl-1 7beta-hydroxil-androsta-1.4dien-3-on) is an orally applicable steroid with a great effect on the protein metabolism. The effect of Dianabol promotes the protein synthesis, thus it supports the buildup of protein. This effect mani-fests itself in a positive nitrogen balance and an improved well-be-ing. Dianabol has a very strong anabolic and androgenic effect which manifests itself in an enormous buildup of strength and muscle mass in its users. Dianabol is simply a "mass steroid" which works quickly and reliably.

A weight gain of 2 - 4 pounds per week in the first six weeks is normal with Dianabol. The additional body weight consists of a true increase in tissue (hyper-trophy of muscle fibers) and, in particular, in a noticeable retention of fluids. Dianabol aromatizes easily so that it is not a very good drug when one works out for a competition. Excessive water reten-tion and aromatizing can be avoided in most cases by simultaneously taking Nolvadex and Proviron so that some athletes are able to use Dianabol until three to four days before a competition.

if I am wrong then please let me know. I am still learning about this stuff and was under the impression that D-bol would be ideal in a situation where quick protein synthesis was necessary.

[Big Cat]

That's a fabrication bro. Whoever wrote that either made an honest mistake in his wording, or doesn't know jack **** of what he is saying. I've seen no evidence to support that. So far IGF-1 mediation is the only known way to cause hyperplasia.

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by Big Cat
So far IGF-1 mediation is the only known way to cause hyperplasia.

i probably missed this within the post, but can anything else increase igf-1 in the body like gh and slin, which would lead to hyperplasia.

or do you need to directly use igf-1

also what is the street price for something like this and how is it typically dosed (length and doseage)??

thanks

[Big Cat]

Theonly way to create active IGF-1 is through a well timed combination of insulin and GH. Local growth can be caused by combining IGF-1 and insulin. IGF-1 alone will not do much of anything for you.

[Guy]

Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
i probably missed this within the post, but can anything else increase igf-1 in the body like gh and slin, which would lead to hyperplasia.

or do you need to directly use igf-1

also what is the street price for something like this and how is it typically dosed (length and doseage)??

thanks


I can get it for 250$ for 1ml.That can last you 4 weeks at 30mcg per day.But 60mcg per day would be a good dosage.And your not suppose to use it more then 4 weeks

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by Guy
I can get it for 250$ for 1ml.That can last you 4 weeks at 30mcg per day.But 60mcg per day would be a good dosage.And your not suppose to use it more then 4 weeks

thanks, so it sounds to be similar to gh in price. i dont think ill ever use it unless i get to a point where AAS aren't doing much anymore.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Guy
I can get it for 250$ for 1ml.That can last you 4 weeks at 30mcg per day.But 60mcg per day would be a good dosage.And your not suppose to use it more then 4 weeks

Studies are using 500 mcg to 1 mg per day ...

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Studies are using 500 mcg to 1 mg per day ...

how many mg in 1 ml??

[IME]

Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
thanks, so it sounds to be similar to gh in price. i dont think ill ever use it unless i get to a point where AAS aren't doing much anymore.
Bro, if your diet and training is sound and your not pressed for time, what makes you think roids won't take you as far as you want to get. LOL....How big do you wanna get anyway?

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by IME
Bro, if your diet and training is sound and your not pressed for time, what makes you think roids won't take you as far as you want to get. LOL....How big do you wanna get anyway?

i have long term goals of being BIG!!
i already have people telling me i have too much muscle, and i'm only 5'8 205 with a low bodyfat
stretch marks are starting to get out of control on biceps and front delts, worse than i've seen on anyone!!

i want to get up to the 240-250 range,

[Mr Grizzly]

even though im only 205, i look much bigger due to low bodyfat, i have experienced lifters coming up to me thinking i weigh 230

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
i have long term goals of being BIG!!
i already have people telling me i have too much muscle, and i'm only 5'8 205 with a low bodyfat
stretch marks are starting to get out of control on biceps and front delts, worse than i've seen on anyone!!

i want to get up to the 240-250 range,

current cost of IGF-1 that's a minimum of 250 dollars a day on top of gear and slin. But if 240 is all you want, you can do that with just gear. IGF-1 is only useful for localized growth, which means if you train properly you may never need it.

[IME]

Originally posted by Big Cat
current cost of IGF-1 that's a minimum of 250 dollars a day on top of gear and slin. But if 240 is all you want, you can do that with just gear. IGF-1 is only useful for localized growth, which means if you train properly you may never need it.
Well, Big Cat made the point that I was trying to get across. I have no intentions of ever messing with slin, IGF-1, GH, DNP, clen or T3. Roids are enough for me to get the job done. So, I guess that is all I was trying to say:)

[Mr Grizzly]

yeah Big Cat, I never plan on using IGF-1, I still dont know if i will ever use GH and slin, but i'm sure as time goes on i will give those a try :D

[Guy]

Hey bigCat I was told by research and SHOT that 30-60mcg a day was more then enough for a begginer.At 120mcg per day thats when GH gut start to show......


I'll go check some back research to see if I'm not mistaken.

ALL MY BODYBUILDING RESEARCH say that over 120mcg per day is crazy.

I'll go get an article on it...

[Guy]

Here's one of my best articles on it.



I would like to here your thoughts after reading that BigCat.I'm not trying to get in a fight with you I'm just trying to educate myself.

IGF1, also known as somatomedin C, is polypeptide hormone about the same size as insulin. It is produced predominantly in the liver in response to growth hormone (GH) release from the pituitary gland. Many of the growth promoting effects of GH are due to its ability to release IGF1 from the liver. The conversion ratio of GH to IGF1 varies greatly in different individuals but most external sources of GH convert around 4-6mcg of IGF per one I.U. of GH. IGF-1 acts on several different tissues to enhance growth. IGF1 belongs in the 'superfamily' of substances known as 'growth factors,' along with epidermal (skin), transforming; platelet derived fibroblast, nerve, and ciliary neurotrophic growth factors. None of the other factors have any bearing on exoskeletal tissue incidentally however These agents all have in common the ability to stimulate cell division, known as mitogenesis, and cell differentiation. Meaning That In the case of IGF1 which does act on muscle tissue it will initiate the growth of new muscle fibers, and subsequently new receptors for testosterone. Users have unanimously concluded that it enhances cycles of steroids significantly. They also seem to be adamant about its ability to reduce fat and improve vascularity a great deal.



The IGF1 Hype



There is a considerable amount of hype surrounding IGF1. Every one is blaming the distended bellies of modern Bodybuilders on it. Also the freaky proportions that old bodybuilders that have been around for years are starting to attain. Anti-aging proponents are touting it as the miracle cure for every thing from Parkinson's disease to Alzheimer's. And the medical community has published numerous articles on it for its ability to cause cancer, diabetes and gigantism. While at the same time performing documented experiments on thousands of patients of muscle wasting diseases. And reporting significant turnabouts in there conditions. So what is a guy to think about IGF1 as far as athletic enhancement is concerned? Well first of all you need to know that most experiments conducted with IGF1 do not list the type of IGF used. I have written Dr. Robert Saline of the Swedish rejuvenation institute on several occasions and we have had in-depth discussions on the subject of IGF1 for physical appearance enhancement. He feels it would be unethical to prescribe IGF1 to a bodybuilder to increase muscle mass simply due to the fact that IGF1 has valid applications in the medical community, (Like I could give a rats ass about "ethical"). He can not argue that it is extremely effective as a promoter of muscle growth far beyond what androgens (steroids) alone can offer. Well fortunately in America IGF1 is not a drug (yet) and the FDA has no control over it as of now. This will change in the very near future however, Im absolutely sure of it.

[Guy]

How to use IGF1



Assuming that you have acquired legitimate IGF1 (R3) long chain, That's IGF1 with the binding protein added. You should take dosages ranging from 60mcg up to 120mcg per day in divided doses. One injection in the morning and again at bed time. Never exceed 120mcg in one day. IGF1 can cause serious gastrointestinal problems such as tumors intestinal swelling diarrhea and vomiting. Most IGF1 comes in a concentration of 1000mcg per ML or CC so it makes it easy to measure in an insulin syringe. 10 IU on the syringe is 100mcg. Do the math.



IGF + Insulin



If you plan on doing IGF1 with Insulin, listen closely IGF1 is not that expensive, sure you can get away with using less by including insulin in the stack, but IGF1 and Insulin together have a pro-insulin effect on your blood sugar balance. It can enhance the chances of a hypoglycemic episode ten fold. I would recommend against it for any one not ABSOLUTLY comfortable with insulin or IGF1.



Here is how insulin and IGF1 work together. Igfbp3 is the binding protein, which allows IGF1 to remain active in the system for a long enough period of time to really work its magic. IGF1 by nature has a half-life of less than 10 minutes by its self. The molecule was so small it would escape the blood stream very rapidly. This was the reason IGF1 was so "underground". It took very frequent injections at high dosages to achieve even minimal results. Aside from this reconstituting the compound required a degree in biochemistry. This short acting version was the only IGF1 known until recently IGF1 would have been administered in 100 mcg dosages 4-6 times a day. That is a hell of a lot of IGF1. That explains a lot of the distended bellies. Now with R3 long chain IGF1 and the Binding protein IGFBP3 IGF1 will last up to 6 hours in the system. By binding IGF to the IGFBP3 you make the molecule larger and it gets trapped in the blood stream until the protein is broken down and the IGF molecule escapes. You can further its life by combining Insulin with it, although I here its very risky. Insulin prevents the breakdown of IGFBP3 and leaves the IGF1 molecule roaming free in the blood stream for longer periods of time up to 12 hours as insulin levels return to normal IGFBP3 will begin to break down and the IGF1 will escape from its bound protein IGFBP3 again having a half life of less than 10 minutes.



Insulin should be taken at the normal dosage it is usually administered at minus 10% about 45 minutes prior to the IGF1 infusion. Again let me remind you this can be deadly if you don't know what you are doing. And of course do not use Insulin for the nighttime injection of IGF1 by taking it in the morning you prolong the IGF1's half life to 12 hours and then take a 6 hour injection, you should be fine. Hell if you want to eat a big bowl of rice and drink another 100g of simple carbs 45 minutes before the bed time IGF1 infusion you could spike insulin for at least a few hours of extended IGF1 activity. If your not going to be using insulin in the stack then go ahead and do the same in the morning.



What users report



Users of IGF1 have reported various results but all along the same lines, It does not appear to be dramatically less effective in any one individual (at least not to the best of my knowledge). I have a good friend who had to stop taking IGF1 due to stomach illness that was completely unrelated But he to experienced good gains from it for the 2 weeks he was on it, his dosage was 120mcg per day. One hour after the first injection he went to the gym and immediately told me about the uncontrollable pump he got from just one set.



That would indicate to me that he was experiencing some form of cell volumization. The general consensus on IGF1 seems to be that its benefits are as fallow:



Increased Pump Pumps are reported to be so severe that workouts are often cut short due to lack of ability to the muscle through the full range of motion...ouch



Gains retention is increased if IGF is used in a cycle I am not sure why, but IGF1 seems to make gains on a cycle stick with virtually no post cycle loss. Every bodybuilder I've spoken with seems to think this for some reason. Most of them use drugs like Anadrol or Dianabol with it because of the amount of size attained with these drugs. The usual draw back to these drugs is that in most users there is a post cycle "crash" that occurs, so the reasoning is to toss IGF1 into the stack and grow larger faster with out the post cycle crash blues.



Reverses testicular atrophy



Testicles if shrunken will return to "full swing" so to speak even in the middle of a cycle. If not shrunken they will not shrink during the cycle. This may explain partially why gains are kept after the cycle.



Fatigue



Users report feeling drained and tired all day. This seems to be one of the negative side effects to IGF1, it will make you sleep longer and you will require more sleep at night to feel rested for the morning. This is common with high doses of HGH and exhibited in children, whose IGF1 levels are extraordinarily high. A child needs 4 hours more sleep than an adult on average does. This may be directly or indirectly related to IGF1 levels.



Stiffness



An almost arthritic feeling is commonly associated with high levels of HGH, well IGF1 has the exact same property. IGF1 will cause your hands, fingers and knuckles to ache this is one way you can be sure you got real IGF1.



IGF-1's Side effects



Every thing has a down side. To bake a cake ya gotta brake an egg. IGF1 is no exception. The drug used in larger quantity around the 100mcg+ range will cause headaches, occasional nausea and can contribute to low blood sugar or hypoglycemia in some users. Although I have never heard of this first hand I'm sure its true.



IGF1 will attach its self to the lining of the intestine and cause atrophy of the gut. Every thing IGF1 touches will grow and you have a lot of receptors on the lining of the large intestine and inner wall of the abdominal well. This is what causes the GH gut look. You can easily avoid this by limiting your dosages and cycle lengths. IGF1 cycles should be kept to 4-6 weeks with 4-6 weeks off in-between. IGF-1 is considerably more powerful than HGH and you need to think of it along those lines as far as dosing goes. We all know what to much HGH can do over prolonged periods of usage. The Neanderthal look is definitely not going to win any shows this year. I would recommend 80 mcg a day for 4 weeks at a time you should get good results from that for a while. I don't know if you will need to up the dosage at any point, but I would think in the case of IGF1 it wouldn't matter. If 80mcg doesn't do it for ya, then bump it up to 100 You should definitely feel it at this point If not suspect the IGF1 as being fake. Beyond 120 mcg per day your asking for trouble, This compound demands as much respect as its sister amino Insulin.



Clinical Facts about IGF-1



IGF-1 is a polypeptide of 70 amino acids (7650 daltons), and is one of a number of related insulin-like growth factors present in the circulation. The molecule shows approximately 50% sequence homology with proinsulin and has a number of biological activities similar to insulin. IGF-1 is a mediator of longitudinal growth in humans or how tall you are capable of becoming. Serum IGF-1 concentrations are altered by age, nutritional status, body composition, and growth hormone secretion. A single basal IGF-1 level is useful in the assessment of short stature in children and in nutritional support studies of acutely ill patients. For the diagnosis of acromegaly, a single IGF-1 concentration is more reliable than a random hGH measurement (Oppizi, et al., 1986). IGF-1 can be used for the assessment of disease activity in acromegaly (Barkan, et al., 198.



Almost all (>95%) of serum IGF-1 circulates bound to specific IGF binding proteins (IGFBPs), of which six classes (IGFBPs 1-6) have been identified (Rudd, 1991). BP3 is thought to be the major binding protein of IGF-1.

[WanaKnowMore]

Guy

Damn good post bro. Thanks for the info

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Guy
Hey bigCat I was told by research and SHOT that 30-60mcg a day was more then enough for a begginer.At 120mcg per day thats when GH gut start to show......


I'll go check some back research to see if I'm not mistaken.

ALL MY BODYBUILDING RESEARCH say that over 120mcg per day is crazy.

I'll go get an article on it...

No, get me STUDIES. Articles mean crap. I know bodybuilders have been using low doses like that, mostly because these dealers had the stuff and they weren't gonna get it sold at 250 bucks per day for treatments of 12 weeks. I dare you to find one study showing any positive effect with IGF-1 in doses under 500 mcg.

[Mr Grizzly]

so big cat, when you say you are doing research with this product, are your clients using it?? how can they afford to pay for your service, AAS, GH, insulin, food, supps, and IGF-1????

i have trouble just buying AS, food, and supps

[Big Cat]

They are professional athletes or trying to be ...

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by Big Cat
They are professional athletes or trying to be ...

thats awesome, are you still a student too? you must be making some good $$ training people at that level

[Big Cat]

Actually no ... I don't make much at all. You'd be surprised at how little money there is to be made from training here. I'm lucky if I get 50 per month per person, in the US some personal trainers make as much as 50 an hour. But it adds to the resume, so its cool.

[Mr Grizzly]

you should hop on a plane to the US, with you knowledge you could be the next charles glass :D

[Big Cat]

You know at this new level of research I know I'm at a whole different level than Charles Glass, but that man never stops to amaze me. Look at what he did for Gunther.

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Look at what he did for Gunther.

yeah, do you think all of his knowledge is simply on training, or does he help with anabolics too (do all of the top traininers help with gear??)

lets say you go to see chad nichols i know he helps with diet, but does he help with training and gear too??

[Big Cat]

All the pro's have someone helping with their anabolic schedule. I'm pretty sure Charles Glass does, since he has used in the past and does know some about it. He was also involved in a drug bust, so he most likely helps athletes procure the stuff as well. Dunno about Chad Nicholls. But if their personal trainer isn't doing it, I assure you someone else is as its an important factor if you want to come in at your sharpest.

[Mr Grizzly]

sorry for the stupid question, but did charles glass used to be a popular bb? i've never seen pics of him competing, just training top pros

[Mark21087]

Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
yeah, do you think all of his knowledge is simply on training, or does he help with anabolics too (do all of the top traininers help with gear??)

lets say you go to see chad nichols i know he helps with diet, but does he help with training and gear too??

Chad Nichols helps with steroids too cause I remember an Q and A with him, and someone asked him about cycles and chad responded "C'mon, I can't answer that here. That's what my clients pay for"

[Guy]

Originally posted by Big Cat
No, get me STUDIES. Articles mean crap. I know bodybuilders have been using low doses like that, mostly because these dealers had the stuff and they weren't gonna get it sold at 250 bucks per day for treatments of 12 weeks. I dare you to find one study showing any positive effect with IGF-1 in doses under 500 mcg.


Sorry I have no studies for it but its was written buy trusted vets/mods with alot of experience with it.I dont think they would just say your asking for trouble at 120mcg and over for nothing?

I am a strong beilever that experience is better then studies.Without studies you cant experience, but you kow what I mean.......

I dare you to give 500mcg a day to your atlhletes for 6 weeks.I dont think they would like you after that.


But then again I havent experienced it yet but I will in 3 weeks.I'm actually taking 30mcg a day the first 4 weeks and 30mcg a day the 4 last.

I'd like SHOT to enter this conversation because if i'm not mistaken he's tried it too.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
sorry for the stupid question, but did charles glass used to be a popular bb? i've never seen pics of him competing, just training top pros

Dunno if he was popular, but he sure had an amazing physique.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Guy
I am a strong beilever that experience is better then studies.Without studies you cant experience, but you kow what I mean.......

At 250-500 bucks per day, how many people do you think have experience with using 500 mcg and up for extensive periods of time ????

I dare you to give 500mcg a day to your atlhletes for 6 weeks.I dont think they would like you after that.

Maybe when I have a little more money and I think they would like me, since I can solve their lagging muscle problems without the use of synthol.

[Mr Grizzly]

Originally posted by Mark21087
Chad Nichols helps with steroids too cause I remember an Q and A with him, and someone asked him about cycles and chad responded "C'mon, I can't answer that here. That's what my clients pay for"

actually come to think of it, i read that too on his new board

[Mark21087]

Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
actually come to think of it, i read that too on his new board

Really? I read mine is a Muscular Development magazine. I guess thats where ronnie gets his info.

[Mr Grizzly]

http://chadnicholls.net/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?s=3db8929c6238ffff

theres a link to his board, its really new so not many posts yet

[raybravo]

bump for this to go into the best post forum .

[p0w3rlift3r]

This is interesting as hell...so its not the HGH that causes hyperplasia in muscles but IGF-1. IGF-1 can make more muscle cells how does that distort everyones image on genetic limits

What would be the purpose of running IGF-1 with HGH if some one could clear that up for me i would really appreciate it

[Peyomp]

It is certainly worth mentioning that IGF-1 is the somatomedin responsible for the "neanderthol" look associated with HGH use. HGH does not cause face and hand bones to grow. It does so by raising IGF-1 production and excretion.

It should also be noted that not ALL benefits of HGH are from IGF-I. HGH also binds directly to muscle and increases protein retention.

Anyone have any idea when, dosage wise, these side effects tend to develop?

With IGF-1 instead of HGH though... you do not get the rise in IGF-II, which although not completely regulated by HGH levels (I believe 40-60%), is the insulin-like compound associated with organ growth. And perhaps GH gut?

[MaxRep]

I'm wondering if with the passage of time and additional research, Big Cat can respond to the information from another BB Board that was posted by "Guy" on 10/23/02.

I'm also wondering if the 500-1,000mcg/day regimen Big Cat is referring to isn't the required dosage with IGF-1. While the 30 - 120mcg/day is the required dosage with IGF-1 Long R. There is a substantial difference in products.

I've had conversations with the company in Australia which manufactures IGF-1 Long R, and developed it and holds the patent on it. Speaking in a strictly hypothetical format and using as an example various, potential animal studies, as they will have nothing to do with using this in humans (at least according to the person I spoke with), they seem to indicate the lower dosage (30-120mcg/day) to be appropriate for IGF-1 LR to exert its effects in an "animal" in the 200 - 300 pound range.

Any thoughts?

MaxRep

[raybravo]

yes , since the long r igf-1 doesnt have affinity to binding proteins , u will be able to get away with much lower doses than regular version of igf-1 .

[FemmeMuscle]

I have just recently heard about using IGF-1 instaed of HGH. This post certainly offers a lot of info on the subject, but I am wondering if anyone can answer this question....

I am female and have used HGH with very good results. The HGH was taken subcutaneously. I am planning to try the IGF-1 and am trying to find out how it is to be taken. Posts here are saying that it will grow muscle surrounding the injection site so it is a good idea to inject in a lagging body part. Dosage to be split into daytime ( w/insulin) and night (w/out insulin ).

Am I getting this right?

Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated

[raybravo]

the injecting of regular igf-1 will result in spot growth (where u inject it ) , yes , but normally its activity in the person is only 10-20 mins , after that , it disperses into the system , if u use the long r3 igf-1 , activity of around 18-20 hrs , there is over all body growth and not so much localised activity , but the long r3 igf-1 is much more potent as its resistant to binding proteins .
and i suggest u use it by itself first before u think of insulin along with it .