View Full Version : Never come off and still lead a healthy life ?
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 07:53 AM
Training a lot of top level athletes you need to get creative sometimes. Especially when you get real talents that want to go pro and given the insecurity of life as a pro. It seems a bit stupid to go on year long cycles, mess up your health and find out that the pro business isn't for you. So how do you stay big year long without totally ruining your health ?
Basically optimal recovery, maximum gains over time and minimal long-term risks are achieved when doing a cycle of 10-12 weeks with proper post-cycle therapy and a minimum of 10 weeks off. Longer compromises recovery, shorter requires more cycles and increases long-term risk. So let's say 12 on 12 off is your thing to stay healthy.
First things first : staying healthy on 12 on 12 off. Forget about acne, its not a health risk. Taking accutane is a health risk. So deal with acne. Deal with hair loss. DHT blockers will reduce strength and coordination, other treatments are usually anti-androgen and will reduce gains. If you are predisposed come to terms with it, if you are not you have nothing to worry about. Estrogen is a major part of not only gains, but also to immunity. So staying healthy you will need estrogen. therefor you should give preference to using Nolvadex to treat onsetting gyno, rather than arimidex or letrozole as a preventive matter. Again gyno is not life-threatening and even if not treated can be surgically removed. Once over 45 a yearly prostate check is in order, perhaps even twice a year. And last but not least : LIMIT the use of orals to 5-6 weeks of your 12 week cycle or leave them out entirely. When you do use them have your liver values checked every three weeks starting the week prior to beginning up to 3 weeks after ending. Its a bitch, but its essential.
On your 12 off weeks, endocrine recovery says you cannot use any type of steroid (minus some HCG the first two, to preced clomid or Nolvadex therapy) for this period. So you switch to HGH and insulin. HGH alone does nothing, insulin alone will help, but to nowhere near the same extent. Some may think 12 weeks is a bit short for HGH but its the IGF-I we want that we get when combining with slin.
Precautions : Say you work out an hour , take a break at 45 minutes and set the HGH. Don't need to go too high, 5-6 IU will do. This with an eye on preventing roid gut and cardiac hypertrophy. Both long-term risks of high HGH usage. Then set your insulin after the workout, start at 4,6,8,10 increasing every three days and keep it around 10 Iu, that should be more than sufficient. 5 minutes later you should be consuming your weight gainer with ample dextrose and already have a liter bottle of dextrose in water ready afterwards. Sip it regularly for the coming 4.5 hours, assuming you are using a short-acting insulin. Prior to ever using insulin, its best to have blood sugar levels tested to exclude abnormalities.
The heart and prostate are the weak points in the system that should be watched closely.
This system avoids all the pitfalls of morons who bridge (who the hell invented that anyway ? You systematically ruin recovery and yet you are using doses not worth the wart on my grandma's ass).
you can live a perfectly happy, healthy life in this manner, and give your life a lot more quality than people who age regularly with declining hormone levels. Odds are small that you will live past 80 (they already are), but you can rest assured you'll be spared of senility and debilitating disease in your old age, and be able to play with your grand or even greatgrandchildren.
If there wasn't already 458 stickies in this forum...........
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 07:57 AM
Really only relevant to older people with money or people looking to have a shot at being a pro.
Yeah but good advice thats worth a read for everyone that will slip off the page in a few hours :)
fayde_32
10-07-2002, 08:00 AM
I am speechless. Awsome thread bro. Good info.
raybravo
10-07-2002, 08:23 AM
ahh the part of using hgh seems expensive , but like u said , its for people who r willing to spend that kinda cash ...
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 08:29 AM
Yes obviously if you're intention is merely to look good or compete at carnivals, you won't require a year long cycle.
But I generally work best with people who have adequate experience and a lot of ambition. So these are intended really for those stepping up to the next level, or those that want to get to the next level faster.
Obviously, since this is just an abbreviation, for every individual cycle a lot more preparation comes in to play. I sometimes get payed very good money, to meticulously work out all the points of the plan based on the time to bulk, the time to the next competition etc. I mean, if you need to win some Gran Prix's to become a pro and they fall right in the middle of your slin cycle, you are ****ed.
raybravo
10-07-2002, 08:37 AM
quite true bro ... but can u tell us more about why u dont like the idea of bridging ? well , never coming off steroids might not be a good idea , but lets say u run something like anavar for 5 weeks after ur normal 10 week cycle , wouldnt it help ur body adjust to the new weight ? then maybe take 12 week off and go on a proper cycle again . ur thoughts on this bro ...
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 08:44 AM
Your endocrine system (ES) is suppressed. At that point half a tab of anavar is more than enough to keep it supressed and its not strong enough to replace a few ng/dl of test to support your new found mass. On top of that, because of VAr's short half-life, your levels will drop off immediately afterwards, increasing the gap between no more androgens and the total recovery, thus more muscle loss. On top of that 17AA steroids have long receptor times and may stay active longer than their half-lives indicate.
What I do sometimes do is bridge the gap between end of cycle with a long ester and start of Clom/Nolva therapy with Primo acetate. The only 1AA steroid with anabolic activity. The action is considerably shorter so if taken early enough, it can clear the body by nightfall when the signal for Lh production is given (but even then, LH peaks every 2 hours). Say 50 mg early in the morning for 2-3 weeks. But once clom/nolva therapy starts, you need to start cutting any and all steroids or it defeats the purpose of proper recovery.
raybravo
10-07-2002, 08:48 AM
so what ure sayin is that using like 50 mg of primo a day for like a few weeks allows ur body to adjust to the weight gained better than anavar for all the reasons u just said .
the use of a long ester ? like decanoate u mean ? then u will be using clomid after 2 weeks or so , meanwhile u r using primo ? is this what u mean ?
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 08:50 AM
yes. Long-acting steroid is anything with an ester longer than acetate. Only primo is really suited for this purpose and it should only be used during the time between end of cycle and first week of clom/Nolva therapy.
raybravo
10-07-2002, 09:07 AM
so how long can u postpone this period betw the last week of the cycle and using nolva /clomid , i mean what if i want to use primo for 4 weeks , can i go into clomid after those 4 weeks ?
macho21
10-07-2002, 09:48 AM
Good post
RetiredMod
10-07-2002, 10:27 AM
One thing I am confused about is you say that living past 80 is not something that is very likely. Well the projected life expectancy, at least for the US, is over 100 years old for people of my generation (I'm 21). Were you talking about the current life expectancy?
Mr Grizzly
10-07-2002, 10:45 AM
excellent post big cat! very informative, but i still dont understand your views against bridging with anavar. you are saying that natural test just wont come back?? i am considering getting serious in the competitive world of bodybuilding and would plan on bridging in between some cycles with a little anavar.
i mean shot does it and he knows what he is doing. not that i do everything that the vets do, just trying to back up my argument a bit.
i am not trying to take sides or go against you, because i know i could NEVER win :D
grizz
MeImmortal1
10-07-2002, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by McBain
One thing I am confused about is you say that living past 80 is not something that is very likely. Well the projected life expectancy, at least for the US, is over 100 years old for people of my generation (I'm 21). Were you talking about the current life expectancy?
I think the current life expectancy for people our age is like in the upper 70's or something around that, a little higher for women. That takes into account murdur and accidents, etc... Max life expectancy is like 110-120, but hey, in another 80 years or so I bet people will be living to 150 or more, life expectancy shows no sign of decline and goes up steadily each year. At the rate we're going we'll be living forever in a few hundred years. And I believe wholeheartedly u can cylce continuously doing 8,10, or 12 week cycles just taking 8, 10, 12 weeks off with post cycle meds to get ur endocrine workin again. You'll even be healthier than ur average joe, hormone replacement therapy isn't a fluke, it works when monitored and tailored intelligently. Oral steroids suck anyway, and who wants a liver transplant? This was a really good post.
RetiredMod
10-07-2002, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by MeImmortal1
I think the current life expectancy for people our age is like in the upper 70's or something around that, a little higher for women. That takes into account murdur and accidents, etc... ]
Life expectancy for people of my generation (I'm 21) is being projected as over 100. The CURRENT life expectancy (as in the average age people are dying this year) is around mid 70's for men, upper 70's for women. However as you said it goes up drastically even over 10 year periods, so hence by the time I am old enough to die the life expectancy will be a lot higher. Hence the projection of it being over 100.
macho21
10-07-2002, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
excellent post big cat! very informative, but i still dont understand your views against bridging with anavar. you are saying that natural test just wont come back?? i am considering getting serious in the competitive world of bodybuilding and would plan on bridging in between some cycles with a little anavar.
i mean shot does it and he knows what he is doing. not that i do everything that the vets do, just trying to back up my argument a bit.
i am not trying to take sides or go against you, because i know i could NEVER win :D
grizz
Anavar has been shown to supress the HPTA at doses as low as 2.5mg, which means it will prevent recovery. Consequently the "bridge" is actually a ****ty cycle in which you don't gain mass but prevent recovery. If you want to fully recover you should come off completely off any AAS. The other choice would be to do a cycle as Doggcrapp recomends where you go from high doses to cruising periods.
MeImmortal1
10-07-2002, 12:19 PM
I'm 23, I think the maximum life expectancy was lower when we were born. The average life expectancy for two year old males is 74.1 years. It was prolly in the mid to 60's twenty or so years ago. Maximum is something else... I have no doubt we are ALL gonna live past 100, that is of course we get in an accident or die in some other unfortunate incident :D
Quoted from Reuters Washington, October 10, 2001
New Record Life Expectancies for U.S.
The overall death rate from all causes in the U.S. was down slightly in 2000, while Americans' average life expectancy ticked up to an all-time high, according to preliminary government figures.
American males born in 2000 now enjoy an average life expectancy of 74.1 years, up 0.2 years from 1999. Females have an average life expectancy of 79.5 years, up 0.1 years. Both figures tied or exceeded all-time life expectancy records.
Heart disease killed 709,894 persons in 2000 and remains the number one killer of Americans, though it caused 4% fewer deaths last year than the year before. Cancer, stroke and chronic lower respiratory system diseases like emphysema followed as the leading causes of death, according to the annual mortality report released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Meanwhile, nearly 42,000 people lost their lives in car accidents.
Reuters Washington, October 10, 2001
http://www.mercola.com/2001/oct/20/life_expectancy.htm
This site below gives a chart indicating avg. life expectancy for the year you were born - http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/People/Health/health26.htm
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by raybravo
so how long can u postpone this period betw the last week of the cycle and using nolva /clomid , i mean what if i want to use primo for 4 weeks , can i go into clomid after those 4 weeks ?
You shouldn't attempt to squeeze more juice into cycle just for the sake of getting it in, this should only be used with the functional purpose of maintaining mass. You will have 2 to 3 weeks between end of cycle and clom/Nolva therapy, you can use it then, but shouldn't use it any longer. Remember, the aim is maximal gains, minimal long-term risk. running primo orals for another week is not functional.
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by McBain
One thing I am confused about is you say that living past 80 is not something that is very likely. Well the projected life expectancy, at least for the US, is over 100 years old for people of my generation (I'm 21). Were you talking about the current life expectancy?
Get real, life expectancy might increase by one, maybe two years in such short time-span. Which makes it roundabout 78 or 79.
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Mr Grizzly
excellent post big cat! very informative, but i still dont understand your views against bridging with anavar. you are saying that natural test just wont come back?? i am considering getting serious in the competitive world of bodybuilding and would plan on bridging in between some cycles with a little anavar.
What's the point of this post if noone is listening ?
i mean shot does it and he knows what he is doing. not that i do everything that the vets do, just trying to back up my argument a bit.
You mean junior ? :D
No, seriously, if anyone wants to defend this with good arguments I'll be happy to listen, you never know if I'm overlooking something, but I think I made a pretty solid case here.
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by macho21
Anavar has been shown to supress the HPTA at doses as low as 2.5mg, which means it will prevent recovery. Consequently the "bridge" is actually a ****ty cycle in which you don't gain mass but prevent recovery. If you want to fully recover you should come off completely off any AAS. The other choice would be to do a cycle as Doggcrapp recomends where you go from high doses to cruising periods.
Hello ? Why am I writing this post, I just showed you the correct way to do it ...
I bridge with primo and ananvar for just about every cycle...i keep more strenth and fullness doing this and never had a prob with test levels at al...i always gain well on the cycles i do....
plain and simple bridgeing works for me and it works great.....thats about all i can really say about it...
and the prices of GH these days with gear being harder to get at good prices who can really afford to do this BIG CAT? wish i could
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by SHOT
I bridge with primo and ananvar for just about every cycle...i keep more strenth and fullness doing this and never had a prob with test levels at al...i always gain well on the cycles i do....
plain and simple bridgeing works for me and it works great.....thats about all i can really say about it...
That's really all there is to say, since bloodwork will tell you differently.
and the prices of GH these days with gear being harder to get at good prices who can really afford to do this BIG CAT? wish i could
Assuming you have a need to never come off, you are probably in a position where this is no longer a problem. Unless you are going pro or plan to, I see no real reason to stay on for that long. If you can't afford to do this, then you are probably a person who doesn't need it. That's why I started my post with "having trained a number of top-level athletes ..."
Originally posted by Big Cat
That's really all there is to say, since bloodwork will tell you differently.
Assuming you have a need to never come off, you are probably in a position where this is no longer a problem. Unless you are going pro or plan to, I see no real reason to stay on for that long. If you can't afford to do this, then you are probably a person who doesn't need it. That's why I started my post with "having trained a number of top-level athletes ..." [/B]
I have had blood work that showed i was fine....not after every cycle tho..i gotit done mayube 3-4 tiems
RetiredMod
10-07-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Big Cat
Get real, life expectancy might increase by one, maybe two years in such short time-span. Which makes it roundabout 78 or 79.
I disagree, I don't have any numbers in front of me but I am sure 60 years from now the medical advances will be HUGE. I mean look back 60 years and compare it to today....However I'll try to look up some life expectancy numbers from 60 years ago and compare them to today; although even this won't be that great of evidence to look at a projected life expectancy for my generation as science seems to actually be moving more quickly than it did in the past 60 years...
Big Cat
10-07-2002, 04:44 PM
You aren't adding in revolutions like the discovery of penicillin, that's not an event likely to repeat itself in a hurry. Life expectancy does not increase in a linear fashion, or we would all be well over 500...
RetiredMod
10-07-2002, 10:14 PM
Obvisouly it doesn't increase linearly but I have heard projections that we will live to be over 100 (my generation). I never saw the numbers myself so I will doublecheck on them; however this was what my biology professor told me. He is a pretty well respected professor and I go to a very well respected school so I am inclined to believe him, but I will double check numbers if I can find some.
MeImmortal1
10-08-2002, 06:24 AM
I don't really think this post was about how long will human beings live for in a 100 years, it's more like bridging which i think is bad too, u gotta let ur hpta and endocrine get back to normal, like your body is going to get used to anything, after a while you will become dependant on things, and need it just to maintain the natural function. You can't take insulin forever, u'll become a diabetic very fast. It's a good spike and can be used safely for short periods of time. But it's all like tolerance, u build it up, your body is like a clock, it knows and grows. Maybe there will be no breakthroughs like penicillin in the next 50-100 years, but dont forget to take into account computers and stem cells, and who cares about penicillin anyway, drug resistant germs are coming along all the time, and it's only a matter of time before we're screwd. 100 years ago there were no computers, no cars, no planes, no electricity, no nothing... And that's just a generation behind us. I agree with the original post, u can stay on 12 weeks, come off to something like hgh which isnt gonna shut u down, or slin.. but u can't keep up HRT, which in essence is what cycling is... u will become dependant and have problems.
Mr Grizzly
10-08-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Big Cat
On your 12 off weeks, endocrine recovery says you cannot use any type of steroid (minus some HCG the first two, to preced clomid or Nolvadex therapy) for this period. So you switch to HGH and insulin. HGH alone does nothing, insulin alone will help, but to nowhere near the same extent. Some may think 12 weeks is a bit short for HGH but its the IGF-I we want that we get when combining with slin.
.
i have a quick question. so lets say i have a show around may (havent picked an exact date yet because new schedule is being made up this weekend)
i'm doing a 10 week cycle now (in week 2). i want to bridge before my cutting cycle for 10-12 weeks after current cycle, and you are against anavar. the PROBLEM is that i'm not ready to use insulin yet per your suggestions insulin + hgh (but i'd be willing to try HGH) but you stated above that hgh alone does nothing
what am i to do? :)
hope you can help Big Cat
my reason for not doing slin yet is i've only done three cycles and i'm only 21. i feel i am too young and my view on slin is that it should be used when you can not gain any more weight with AAS.
grizz
raybravo
10-08-2002, 07:08 PM
you can run 4 weeks of primo , allow the weight to settle down and run clomid and get ur cutting cycle running right away i'd say.... dont worry about hgh and slin right now , let ur body stop responding , the wolverine hasnt even touched either of them till now ...
Mr Grizzly
10-08-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by raybravo
the wolverine hasnt even touched either of them till now ...
yeah i dont want to start them now either. **** i'm only about 210 right now at 5'8 (i mean i'm kinda big, but nowhere near wolverine big :) )
edit: does it matter what kind of primo i use (tabs or injectable) for my liver's sake? also should i not run anavar with it?
I think BC's advice is very good but this is something that I would never consider not could I afford. This would be very costly.
raybravo
10-08-2002, 07:24 PM
yeah size. very costly would be an understatement !!
grizzly , i'd say using oral primo 50 mg evryday would do like big cat said , liver toxicity , i dont think its 17 aa ... anyway , u'll just be running it for 4 weeks ...
RetiredMod
10-08-2002, 11:44 PM
Well it's not so much life extension that increases life expectancy, it is the treatment of premature death (i.e. being able to treat heart disease, cancer, AIDS, gun shot victums, car crash victums, etc). The advances in these fields have been huge in the past 10 years, nevermind 60.
desert rat
10-08-2002, 11:50 PM
For all you people that think you are going to live to 125 years please get real. We are no closer to elongating the potential life span than we were 1000 years ago. Medical science has found cures for easily treatable diseases/injuries. People lived 35 years because they died of thigs we an now cure. People then had the POTENTIAL to live 85 years, they just died of things we can now fix. Sorry to crash your new age dreams of near immortality but we are males and assuming your father does not have heart disease you got 30 ,40, maybe 50 years at best -- and most likely the last 5-10 will suck.
Big Cat
11-23-2002, 12:24 PM
bump for SHOT.
Originally posted by Big Cat
bump for SHOT.
thanks bro...for the life of me i coudlnt find this post
Awais
11-23-2002, 11:50 PM
I admire ur knowledge bro, really a genius :)
raybravo
12-30-2002, 08:31 PM
bump for this to go to the best post forum .
costasoldatos
04-03-2003, 01:02 AM
The body is set up to live 200 years. But due to improper nutrition, radiation everywhere, pollution, chemicals and other garbage in everything we eat this is impossible. The Life Expectancy for Men and Woman in the United States I am almost positive is 79 for Females and 73 for males.
fayde_32
04-03-2003, 10:51 AM
I am not disagreeing but where did you get the info on 200 years? That would be an interesting read.