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Regice
12-10-2007, 11:30 AM
Huge Jewish Menorah Lit in front of the White House and the Kremlin
While the Cross is outlawed on public ground - huge Jewish Menorahs are erected!


On December 4th a huge Menorah was erected and lit in front of the America's White House. A radical Jewish supremacist organization called Chabad Lubavitch sponsored the menorah and it was lit by the prominent Jewish extremist and torture advocate, the new U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey. In America you cannot put a Christian cross on public ground; no symbol representing any aspect of the Christian religion is allowed. Christmas manger scenes, for example, have long been deemed illegal.

But while crosses are banned from the White House and any public place, huge Jewish Menorahs are going up by the thousands all over the United States as well as in many European countries. One of the main groups erecting them is Chabad Lubavitch, an organization that teaches that Gentiles are a lower and different species from Jews and that Gentiles entire purpose on earth is only to serve Jews.

Menorahs are now erected in most hallowed places of many respective nations. You can find them in front of many European parliaments and government buildings. A huge Menorah is now in front of the White House and hundreds more adorn government buildings, both state and federal and local all over America.

The Menorah is symbol intrinsic with the Jewish religion, and long before the creation of the modern state of Israel, the Menorah was the most common symbol of the Jewish religion, it has been used for centuries as symbol of Jewish organizations all over the world.

Menorahs symbolize what the Jewish religion calls miracle of the lamps and commemorates the Jewish military victory over the Greeks and the recapture of the Jewish temple which is now celebrated as the Jewish religious holiday of Hanukkah. The Jewish religion views Hanukkah's meaning as commemorating Jewish resistance to the threat of intermarriage and assimilation. Instead of persecuting Jews, the Greeks of Syria accepted them and allowed them to assimilate and because of this the rabbis waged war and massacred them.

Hanukkah is used by the Jewish faith as a lesson against intermarriage with Christians. Imagine for a moment if any Christian Politician would condemn the marriage of Christians to Jews, or would suggest that America should not let Jews assimilate into our nation. The fact that Jewish extremists routinely get away with these double standards is only understandable when one recognizes that Jewish supremacy in many areas of the American media. They can focus on what they want, hide what they want.

When President Bush was campaigning for President in his first election, he was roundly criticized for speaking at the Christian, Bob Jones University. It was brought out that BJU opposed interracial or inter-religious dating or marriage. Bush had to make a servile apology to the Jewish press for his appearance. Yet, the very next week he was speaking before powerful national Jewish organizations such as the American Jewish Committee, an organization that spends millions in opposing intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews. Practically every major Jewish organization in America has gone on record as opposing Jewish intermarriage with non-Jews. Of course, there was no outcry in the controlled press against Bush for speaking at these Jewish extremist groups, and every major candidate for president has to genuflect before the radical, pro-Israel radical Jewish groups that wield so much political, financial and media power in America.

President Bush learned his lesson and helped light the anti-assimilationist Jewish menorah in the White House, accompanied by members of the Jewish hate-group called Chabad Lubavitch. Could you imagine President Bush lighting candles in the shape of the cross in ceremony opposing Jewish assimilation in Gentile society, but somehow there is no problem in lighting a symbol that opposes Jewish assimilation from a Jewish perspective.

Chabad Lubavitch is a powerful Jewish extremist group with branches in every major city of Europe and America and even with branches for Jews in far away cities such as Peking and New Delhi. Here are two excerpts from their website on the Menorah erections around the world.


Chabad Lubavitch sponsored Menorah at the KremlinPublic menorah lightings were initiated and promoted by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, of righteous memory. Today, more than 10,000 public squares around the world are illuminated by Menorahs placed by Chabad Lubavitch.
From Giant Menorah Lit in Front of the Kremlin http://www.fjc.ru/news/newsArticle.asp?AID=606436

In a tradition started by the Lubavitcher Rebbe to publicize and popularize the Festival of Lights, Chabad has brought the menorah to be lit in the White House, the Kremlin, the Brandenburg Gate, in Iraq, embassies, consulates, State Houses, college campuses, army bases, ball games, shopping malls, and more.
From Chabad To Light Menorah In Polish Parliament (Sejm) http://lubavitch.com/article/2021310...ment-Sejm.html


Chabad Lubavitch sponsored a huge Menorah in Zagreb with Chabad claiming that Croatia can't enter the European Union unless Croatia builds a huge synagogue. Notice how Jews (who are non-Europeans) have the power to tell indigenous non-Jewish populations what to do.

Of course no Christian organization could claim, to put special holiday crosses in thousands of public squares as most of these nations would forbid any overt Christian symbols, yet strangely, Jewish supremacist symbols are not only permitted they are approved and celebrated by the top political leaders of European nations. Why?

The answer to that question will lead to answers of many other questions that challenge us. Let's take a glimpse into Chabad Lubavitch which has an inside track to most political leaders in the European world, the same organizations that put up the Menorahs that are clearly illegal in most countries.

The New Republic in a May 4, 1992 article revealed the hateful anti-Gentile nature of Chabad Lubavitch.


...there are some powerful ironies in Chabad's new messianic universalism, in its mission to the gentiles; and surely the most unpleasant of them concerns Chabad's otherwise undisguised and even racial contempt for the goyim.
...Moreover, this characterization of gentiles as being inherently evil, as being spiritually as well as biologically inferior to Jews, has not in any way been revised in later Chabad writing. (The New Republic)

Regice
12-10-2007, 11:31 AM
Chabad and other extremist orthodox rabbis frequently author columns in the largest Jewish newspaper in the United States, Jewish Week. In this paper you will find supremacist attitudes that any decent human being would call horrific. Examine the following quote:


Gentile souls are of a completely different and inferior order. They are totally evil, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. If every simple cell in a Jewish body entails divinity, is a part of God, then every strand of DNA is a part of God. Therefore, something is special about Jewish DNA. I LOLed

If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that. Jewish life has an infinite value, he explained. There is something infinitely more holy and unique about Jewish life than non-Jewish life.

Chabad Lubavitch Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh in Jewish Week, the largest Jewish publication in the United States.

This Statement was made by a leading Lubavitch Rabbi named Yitshak Ginsburgh and it can be found in the April 26, 1996 Jewish Week. Many Christians would doubt the authenticity of the quote simply because they could not believe any religious leader would actually say that it would be moral for a Jew to kill a Gentile and take his liver. In many of my lectures, I bring home the horror of what Rabbi Ginsburgh said by pointing out to the non-Jews in the audience that he argues that Jews have the moral right to murder your mother or father, son or daughter, husband or wife to provide a liver for a Jew. The evil of such a statement is simply beyond the comprehension of most of us, but again, this statement was made in largest, most popular Jewish publication in the United States, the same organization that is sponsoring the illegal Menorahs in front of the White House and in many other nations.

As far as Hanukkah is concerned, let me quote to you from a typical Jewish accounting of it. I take this quote from Zipple: the Jewish Supersite. Here are some excerpts:

That's not to say that Chanukah isn't important. After all, the eight-day holiday celebrates the Jewish military victory against the Syrians.., Underlying Chanukah is a theme just as central today as it was 2,000 years ago, the fight against assimilation. Today, just as then, Jews are well accepted; the Maccabees revolted not only against the ruling Syrians, but against the prevailing Jewish practice of Hellenization.

See, Jewish writers define the Hanukkah celebration as one to encourage resistance to assimilation among Gentiles, a battle as vital today as the one that went on 2000 years ago. The word Hellenization could be interchangeable with Americanization.

You see, everyone else in the world that comes to America is supposed to be quote, "Americanized," everyone of course except the Jews. For them we are supposed to say isn't it great that they want to maintain their separateness and not merge into the great melting of races and creeds in America!

Any Gentile who would dare to say that Jews want to remain separate and not truly assimilate into American culture would be labeled an anti-Semite. If that's true, I guess almost every Jewish organization is quote "anti-Semitic", because all of them preach against intermarriage and assimilation.

The fact-of-the-matter is that Hanukkah is an extremely ethno-phobic celebration of a Jewish military victory and massacre of the pro-Greek Syrians. While a billion Christians celebrate peace on earth, good will to men, the Hanukkah celebration celebrates annihilation of Jewish enemies. I am not exaggerating in the least bit.

Most of the Jewish holidays are celebrations of massacres of their enemies. Seems odd, doesn't it, for a religion to revere military victories as their most sacred times.

In fact, the meaning given to Hanukkah by almost all Jewish leaders and scholars is that Hanukkah symbolizes the resistance of the assimilation of the Jewish people, religion and culture. That in itself is not so bad; all people who want to maintain their traditions, culture and even the heritage of their children should resist assimilation. Somehow, the same rules are not supposed to apply to the White people of European descent. Jewish supremacists, in recognizing Hanukkah, promote the idea that Jews need to keep themselves pure, and non-assimilated. We Europeans are supposed to have our people and culture become assimilated and subsumed every race on earth, but they are supposed to resist assimilation at all costs. Anyone who can think well enough to recognize this hypocrisy should realize its implications in the Jewish extremist power wielded in media and politics. Why is this hypocrisy never exposed in our supposedly free media? Why is exposing Jewish intolerance, supremacism and racial hatred considered in itself intolerant?

Any resistance we have to losing our genetic and cultural heritage through assimilation is called chauvinism, intolerance and ultimately racism by the media. Jewish resistance to assimilation is called "heroic" and worthy of solemn ceremony and celebration. Bush trumpeted that he was committed to Israel as a Jewish state. Note, he did not say multicultural state, diverse state, but as an all caps JEWISH state, which of course it is. With three million Palestinians living under an oppressive Israeli military occupation, some even still dare to call Israel the only democracy in the Mideast, tell that to the 3 million who suffer under a brutal occupation that steals their land and water, imprisons and tortures thousands and that controls almost every aspect ot their lives.

What is so incredibly hypocritical about the whole thing is that the same media that lauds assimilation and diversity for European Americans has no problem with Jews resisting assimilation in the countries in which they dwell. Of course, that is because the media is dominated by the same group that celebrates Hanukkah. Most of the Jewish groups promoting Hanukkah do so use it as a lesson to vigorously condemn intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles.

Imagine for a moment if there was a White House ceremony that symbolized White rejection of assimilation and multiculturalism and condemned intermarriage of Whites with Jews. Do you think the media would be silent?

Or how about if Bush Welcomed to the White House the Gentile equivalent of Jewish supremacists called Christian Identity and they had a religious ceremony celebrating opposition to Jews mixing or assimilating with them?

Every major Jewish organization in the world has programs dedicated to preventing intermarriage of Jews and non-Jews.

How often are they compared to those organizations of Whites who oppose intermarriage?

How many times have you seen the Hollywood stereotype of the evil White Southerner opposed to race-mixing?

How many times have you seen the pervasive Jewish supremacism condemned by media?

How many of you listening to this broadcast or reading this know that by law in Israel Jews and non-Jews cannot marry?

Has any media proposed stopping aid to Israel as long as this continues?

How many times has the media dared to compare those Israeli laws to the old anti-intermarriage laws in most of the American states?

How are these double standards maintained without any outcry?

In truth the double standards that we witness every day in our nation reveal the extent of Jewish power and influence over our media, government and culture.

And how can the government of the U.S. forbid Christian crosses but put up Jewish religious symbols of supremacism and hate?

The answer to all these questions is quite evident.

The government and media of the United States are influenced mightily by the same Jewish extremists who exercise these double standards.

dumac
12-10-2007, 12:32 PM
wow so a few percent of the country can do something but 70% can't. this country is ass backwards

Regice
12-10-2007, 12:34 PM
wow so a few percent of the country can do something but 70% can't. this country is ass backwards
Even for people who aren't religious, this should at least cause some concern because we apparently have no separation of Synagogue and State.

And for some reason Atheists always ignore the largely influential Jewish minority.

dumac
12-10-2007, 12:37 PM
Even for people who aren't religious, this should at least cause some concern because we apparently have no separation of Synagogue and State.

And for some reason Atheists always ignore the largely influential Jewish minority.

its true. if every religion is put up then it really shouldn't be offensive. after all, about 95% of the country believes in some sort of god and if less than 50% could elect a president i think we can put up a christmas tree and a menorah.

but besides governement i think its retarded that private stores don't put up celebrations. after all, the large majority of things bought are for christmas so you risk pissing off the majority because you are afraid of the minority

1devil
12-10-2007, 12:37 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas. Is there a white house Christmas tree? there sure is. The star of of David is the symbol of Judaism. The Cross is the Symbol of Christianity. Neither is is displayed at the white house. /thread.

Fidelis
12-10-2007, 01:28 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas. Is there a white house Christmas tree? there sure is. The star of of David is the symbol of Judaism. The Cross is the Symbol of Christianity. Neither is is displayed at the white house. /thread.
That's a good point. If there's a Christmas tree then I don't see why there can't be a menorah. Of course, both are symbols for religious holidays so one could make an argument that neither should be displayed. I don't really care.

Rune
12-10-2007, 01:30 PM
That's a good point. If there's a Christmas tree then I don't see why there can't be a menorah. Of course, both are symbols for religious holidays so one could make an argument that neither should be displayed. I don't really care.

What about Festivus!! Where is the damned aluminum pole!! :mad:

Bodysteele
12-10-2007, 03:23 PM
What about Festivus!! Where is the damned aluminum pole!! :mad:

TIME FOR THE FEATS OF STRENGTH!!!

TwiloMike
12-10-2007, 07:20 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas. Is there a white house Christmas tree? there sure is. The star of of David is the symbol of Judaism. The Cross is the Symbol of Christianity. Neither is is displayed at the white house. /thread.

x2. Srrsly, some people are damn quick to criticize. Sheesh!

Guard_Pass_old
12-10-2007, 07:50 PM
Even for people who aren't religious, this should at least cause some concern because we apparently have no separation of Synagogue and State.

And for some reason Atheists always ignore the largely influential Jewish minority.

LMFAO. Why are atheists always brought up in these discussions? What the hell did we do? Did we vote to erect a Menorah up? geezus....yes mad

grup910
12-10-2007, 07:59 PM
Lol, they all want the 10 commandments in the courthouse, but god forbid someone puts a menorah next to the x-mas tree. :D

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:08 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas. Is there a white house Christmas tree? there sure is. The star of of David is the symbol of Judaism. The Cross is the Symbol of Christianity. Neither is is displayed at the white house. /thread.

Considering the Menorah is a much older symbol and actually has religious significance (whereas the Mogen Dovid does NOT), it has more significance to Judaism than it does to Christianity.

Why is there a Christmas tree in the White House? Well, for many reasons. The President (at least by his own claim) is a Christian. Why should there be a Menorah? Why not have a Crescent Moon as well? Why put up a GIGANTIC Menorah that overshadows every other holiday symbol? Why should the Menorah be there, anyway? If the Menorah is there, then so should EVERY religious symbol.

If a Christmas tree is up, it's because the President would celebrate Christmas. If we had a Jew for a President I would not see the problem, or if Jews actually made up a majority of our citizens. This isn't Israel. Take your symbols to your Jewish State. We are not a Jewish State. If people want separation of Church and State, they should want the f-cking Schul to stay out of it as well.

YAY for the double standards. But when Christians do this we are considered extremists.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:10 PM
That's a good point. If there's a Christmas tree then I don't see why there can't be a menorah. Of course, both are symbols for religious holidays so one could make an argument that neither should be displayed. I don't really care.
No, because the Menorah has religious significance.

The Christmas tree does not. Any person can recognize that Christmas is a secular holiday, celebrated by religious and non-religious people alike. Chanuka is celebrated by Jews only.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:12 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas. Is there a white house Christmas tree? there sure is. The star of of David is the symbol of Judaism. The Cross is the Symbol of Christianity. Neither is is displayed at the white house. /thread.


That's a good point. If there's a Christmas tree then I don't see why there can't be a menorah. Of course, both are symbols for religious holidays so one could make an argument that neither should be displayed. I don't really care.

a menorah has FAR FAR more religious significance than a pine tree with lights on it.

you do not see stores putting up menorahs for decorations NEARLY as much as you see christmas tree, if you see menorahs AT ALL even.

do you know of any non jews that decorate with a menorah other than for religious reasons (i.e. to please other jews).

i am an atheist, and i decorate my house with a christmas tree, but i would NEVER think of decorating my house with a menorah, since i am not jewish.

and, most atheists and / or non jews are the same EXACT way as i am on this particular issue.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:15 PM
Lol, they all want the 10 commandments in the courthouse, but god forbid someone puts a menorah next to the x-mas tree. :D
If the 10 Commandments stayed up I wouldn't see a problem with this big ass pitchfork. Neither would I see a problem with this pitchfork if crosses weren't deemed illegal.

But of course we have geniuses like 1devil here to tell us that a menorah has no religious significance. Either he is very ignorant of the religion of his people or he is a total liar.

Again, I remind everyone that Crosses, manger scenes, and all religious Christian symbols are illegal. Yet the Jewish ones are not.

But I really would appreciate for someone to tell me that Chanukah is NOT religious, and that the Menorah does not represent the holiday.

The fact that non-religious Jews celebrate Hanukah does not mean anything. The Menorah has been a religious symbol for millenia long before the Star of David came to represent the Jews (it's actually an old Khazar symbol). Not to mention that Chanukah story is told in the Talmud.

icetrauma
12-11-2007, 07:16 PM
wow so a few percent of the country can do something but 70% can't. this country is ass backwards

Pretty bad when the rights of the few infringe on the rights of the many.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:18 PM
Chanukah is also celebrated by secular (atheistic and agnostic) Jews.

LOL @ a menorah being any more of a religious symbol than a Christmas tree.

I love how devil shut this thread down in 2 sentences by using something so simple as common sense. Look at what your hate is doing to your judgement. Its making you look like a clown.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:20 PM
Chanukah is also celebrated by secular (atheistic and agnostic) Jews.

LOL @ a menorah being any more of a religious symbol than a Christmas tree.

I love how devil shut this thread down in 2 sentences by using something so simple as common sense. Look at what your hate is doing to your judgement. Its making you look like a clown.

Chanukah is religious, even if celebrated by atheists and agnostic Jews. Do you see any non-Jews celebrating Chanukah? No. Yet many non-Christians celebrate Christmas.

Please address the points I have made rather than saying "LOL"

Devil did not shut anything down. You morons think you win arguments even when people see through your lies.

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:22 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas. Is there a white house Christmas tree? there sure is. The star of of David is the symbol of Judaism. The Cross is the Symbol of Christianity. Neither is is displayed at the white house. /thread.

Lol at the "/thread". This guy is a classic the way he rushes in to shush up discussion of jews the second they start. Lol, anything would think he had something to hide.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:22 PM
Chanukah is religious, even if celebrated by atheists and agnostic Jews. Do you see any non-Jews celebrating Chanukah? No. Yet many non-Christians celebrate Christmas.

Please address the points I have made rather than saying "LOL"

Devil did not shut anything down. You morons think you win arguments even when people see through your lies.

Yea, celebrating the birth of Christ, someone believed to be the SON OF GOD is not religious.

I'm going to have to LOL again.

And an extra LOL @ the idea that people choosing to celebrate holidays that aren't part of their religion a factor into whether or not a holiday is religious.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:23 PM
Chanukah is also celebrated by secular (atheistic and agnostic) Jews.

LOL @ a menorah being any more of a religious symbol than a Christmas tree.

I love how devil shut this thread down in 2 sentences by using something so simple as common sense. Look at what your hate is doing to your judgement. Its making you look like a clown.

could you please respond to the two bottom posts?

oh, and please, try to make your reponse a little bit better than a simple "LOL", if you are even capable of doing that, that is. :p

thank you in advance. :)


a menorah has FAR FAR more religious significance than a pine tree with lights on it.

you do not see stores putting up menorahs for decorations NEARLY as much as you see christmas tree, if you see menorahs AT ALL even.

do you know of any non jews that decorate with a menorah other than for religious reasons (i.e. to please other jews).

i am an atheist, and i decorate my house with a christmas tree, but i would NEVER think of decorating my house with a menorah, since i am not jewish.

and, most atheists and / or non jews are the same EXACT way as i am on this particular issue.


Considering the Menorah is a much older symbol and actually has religious significance (whereas the Mogen Dovid does NOT), it has more significance to Judaism than it does to Christianity.

Why is there a Christmas tree in the White House? Well, for many reasons. The President (at least by his own claim) is a Christian. Why should there be a Menorah? Why not have a Crescent Moon as well? Why put up a GIGANTIC Menorah that overshadows every other holiday symbol? Why should the Menorah be there, anyway? If the Menorah is there, then so should EVERY religious symbol.

If a Christmas tree is up, it's because the President would celebrate Christmas. If we had a Jew for a President I would not see the problem, or if Jews actually made up a majority of our citizens. This isn't Israel. Take your symbols to your Jewish State. We are not a Jewish State. If people want separation of Church and State, they should want the f-cking Schul to stay out of it as well.

YAY for the double standards. But when Christians do this we are considered extremists.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:25 PM
Proof that the Menorah is religious:


The Bible (Exodus 25:31-40) lists the instructions for the construction of the menorah used in the temple:

31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made, even its base, and its shaft; its cups, its knops, and its flowers, shall be of one piece with it. 32 And there shall be six branches going out of the sides thereof: three branches of the candlestick out of the one side thereof, and three branches of the candle-stick out of the other side thereof; 33 three cups made like almond-blossoms in one branch, a knop and a flower; and three cups made like almond-blossoms in the other branch, a knop and a flower; so for the six branches going out of the candlestick. 34 And in the candlestick four cups made like almond-blossoms, the knops thereof, and the flowers thereof. 35 And a knop under two branches of one piece with it, and a knop under two branches of one piece with it, and a knop under two branches of one piece with it, for the six branches going out of the candlestick. 36 Their knops and their branches shall be of one piece with it; the whole of it one beaten work of pure gold. 37 And thou shalt make the lamps thereof, seven; and they shall light the lamps thereof, to give light over against it. 38 And the tongs thereof, and the snuffdishes thereof, shall be of pure gold. 39 Of a talent of pure gold shall it be made, with all these vessels. 40 And see that thou make them after their pattern, which is being shown thee in the mount.

The construction of the temple menorah was considered a religious order in Judaism.

Christmas trees have no religious significance to Christians. They are not mentioned in the Bible, have nothing to do with Jesus, and conifers are not native to Palestine, where Christianity was born.

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:25 PM
Chanukah is also celebrated by secular (atheistic and agnostic) Jews.

LOL @ a menorah being any more of a religious symbol than a Christmas tree.

I love how devil shut this thread down in 2 sentences by using something so simple as common sense. Look at what your hate is doing to your judgement. Its making you look like a clown.

Another debate-killer. What is it with you jews, seriously?

Obviously nobody but jews celebrates hanukah; it doesn't have any secular significance to anybody but jews.

Christmas on the other hand has secular significance to virtually everybody.

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:27 PM
Yea, celebrating the birth of Christ, someone believed to be the SON OF GOD is not religious.

I'm going to have to LOL again.

And an extra LOL @ the idea that people choosing to celebrate holidays that aren't part of their religion a factor into whether or not a holiday is religious.

Even secular jews celebrate Christmas.

Christmas is also wildly popular in Japan -- a country in which the number of Christians is miniscule.

PS -- LOL

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:28 PM
could you please respond to the two bottom posts?

oh, and please, try to make it alittle bit better than a simple "LOL". :p

thank you in advance. :)

There's not much to say. You guys are making the retarded claims that because people are celebrating religious holidays, it magically makes the holiday non-religious.

Its basically comedy. Sorry, I have to LOL again.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:29 PM
Yea, celebrating the birth of Christ, someone believed to be the SON OF GOD is not religious.

That has nothing to do with Christmas trees and you know it. Menorahs are RELIGIOUS JEW symbols. They are NOT secular no matter how hard you try and deny this fact (they are mentioned in the BIBLE).


I'm going to have to LOL again.

And an extra LOL @ the idea that people choosing to celebrate holidays that aren't part of their religion a factor into whether or not a holiday is religious.

And you want to be a lawyer? You'd get canned so f-cking quick if you were in a courthouse saying "LOL" at your opponent's arguments. Lo and behold the legendary (and mythical) high Jewish IQ.

Christmas may be religious, but a Christmas TREE is NOT.

Manger scenes are religious, as are crosses, yet they are BANNED.

A menorah, (which is mentioned in the Bible), is religious, and is a symbol for a holiday that Jews and ONLY JEWS celebrate. Non-Christians DO celebrate Christmas.

I wouldn't have a problem with that ugly pitchfork if Christian RELIGIOUS symbols were not banned.

Some advice: don't get into law.

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:30 PM
The menorah is to Jews what the Christmas tree is to Christmas.

This analogy is incorrect, too, btw. You should have said "what the Christmas tree is to Christians", not "Christmas".

Or you could have said "the menorah is to Hanukah what..." But, ahh, you couldn't say that, because nobody knows any Christians who keep up a Christmas all year round.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:30 PM
Another debate-killer. What is it with you jews, seriously?

Obviously nobody but jews celebrates hanukah; it doesn't have any secular significance to anybody but jews.

Christmas on the other hand has secular significance to virtually everybody.

What is it with you retards? Secular people celebrating a holiday does not magically change whether or not the holiday is religious.



Even secular jews celebrate Christmas.

Christmas is also wildly popular in Japan -- a country in which the number of Christians is miniscule.

PS -- LOL

Read above. LOL.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:30 PM
There's not much to say. You guys are making the retarded claims that because people are celebrating religious holidays, it magically makes the holiday non-religious.

Its basically comedy. Sorry, I have to LOL again.
Nice. Dancing around the obvious facts and ignoring the points brought up. It must be nice to have your head in the sand and yell "lalalalalala" when confronted with the truth.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:31 PM
And you want to be a lawyer? You'd get canned so f-cking quick if you were in a courthouse saying "LOL" at your opponent's arguments. Lo and behold the legendary (and mythical) high Jewish IQ.


"LOL" @ || renegade ||. :D :p

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:32 PM
a menorah has FAR FAR more religious significance than a pine tree with lights on it.

you do not see stores putting up menorahs for decorations NEARLY as much as you see christmas tree, if you see menorahs AT ALL even.

do you know of any non jews that decorate with a menorah other than for religious reasons (i.e. to please other jews).

i am an atheist, and i decorate my house with a christmas tree, but i would NEVER think of decorating my house with a menorah, since i am not jewish.

and, most atheists and / or non jews are the same EXACT way as i am on this particular issue.

bump for a REAL response.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:33 PM
That has nothing to do with Christmas trees and you know it. Menorahs are RELIGIOUS JEW symbols. They are NOT secular no matter how hard you try and deny this fact (they are mentioned in the BIBLE).



And you want to be a lawyer? You'd get canned so f-cking quick if you were in a courthouse saying "LOL" at your opponent's arguments. Lo and behold the legendary (and mythical) high Jewish IQ.

Christmas may be religious, but a Christmas TREE is NOT.

Manger scenes are religious, as are crosses, yet they are BANNED.

A menorah, (which is mentioned in the Bible), is religious, and is a symbol for a holiday that Jews and ONLY JEWS celebrate. Non-Christians DO celebrate Christmas.

I wouldn't have a problem with that ugly pitchfork if Christian RELIGIOUS symbols were not banned.

Some advice: don't get into law.

My IQ is guaranteed levels above yours, so your advice on whether or not I should get into law doesn't concern me, especially since you desperately throw in Ad Hominems 9/10 times. But thanks for the advice. LOL.

If Christmas is religious, then a Christmas tree is a religious symbol. End your life.

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:34 PM
There's not much to say. You guys are making the retarded claims that because people are celebrating religious holidays, it magically makes the holiday non-religious.

When millions upon millions upon millions of non-christians celebrate Christmas, yeah, I think there's a pretty solid claim to call it a "secular" as well as religious celebration. I'm pretty sure a secular jew who puts up a christmas tree because -- unlike you, perhaps -- he feels part of the majority culture of the country he lives in and goes along with "Christmas" just be in the spirit of the times and not because he sees any religious significance in it.


Its basically comedy. Sorry, I have to LOL again.

You're right that it's a comedy. It's a riot the kind of stupidity desperate jews will resort to when logic corners them.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:35 PM
Nice. Dancing around the obvious facts and ignoring the points brought up. It must be nice to have your head in the sand and yell "lalalalalala" when confronted with the truth.

You: Secular people celebrate Christmas therefore Christmas is a religious holiday.

Me: *Shatters that argument to shreds and LOLs*

You: Don't get into law.

Me: *Laughs at the irony*

You: *Changing the argument, desperately*

Me: *Shakes Head*

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:37 PM
When millions upon millions upon millions of non-christians celebrate Christmas, yeah, I think there's a pretty solid claim to call it a "secular" as well as religious celebration. I'm pretty sure a secular jew who puts up a christmas tree because -- unlike you, perhaps -- he feels part of the majority culture of the country he lives in and goes along with "Christmas" just be in the spirit of the times and not because he sees any religious significance in it.



You're right that it's a comedy. It's a riot the kind of stupidity desperate jews will resort to when logic corners them.

1) Christmas is the celebration of the birth of the "son of God."

2) Even if Billions of people celebrate Christmas that doesn't change #1.

3) You and logic are clearly enemies.

Maybe you should learn from us Jews, so that your people won't be so severely underrepresented when it comes to scientific/medical discoveries.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 07:38 PM
Considering the Menorah is a much older symbol and actually has religious significance (whereas the Mogen Dovid does NOT), it has more significance to Judaism than it does to Christianity.
The Menorah symbolizes the holiday Hanukkah. It doesn't symbolize anything else. It is not an every day or weekly or even monthly symbol in Judaism. It symbolizes the holiday in the same way that the Christmas tree symbolizes Christmas.


Why is there a Christmas tree in the White House? Well, for many reasons. The President (at least by his own claim) is a Christian. Why should there be a Menorah? Why not have a Crescent Moon as well?
Is the Crescent Moon a symbol of a holiday? Is there a symbol for the holiday Eid?


Why put up a GIGANTIC Menorah that overshadows every other holiday symbol?
The menorah is certainly closer to the photographer than the tree in this 2004 photo (and boy, that is one not-so-pretty menorah... :() http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache.eb.com/eb/image%3Fid%3D84521%26rendTypeId%3D4&imgrefurl=http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-75806/Christmas-tree-and-Hanukkah-menorah-sharing-space-in-Washington-DC&h=450&w=272&sz=55&hl=en&start=35&um=1&tbnid=xXHr8liSFxZgBM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=77&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddc%2Bchristmas%2Btree%2B2007%26start% 3D21%26ndsp%3D21%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%2 6safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
The tree seems to hold its own very well. If the photo wasn't taken with the menorah in front of the tree but instead you saw them side by side, there would be no dwarfing effect. I am assuming that the same menorah is being used this year and the tree is no smaller.


Why should the Menorah be there, anyway? If the Menorah is there, then so should EVERY religious symbol.
Pile them on! The symbols, that is, for every relevant holiday. Awesomes!


If a Christmas tree is up, it's because the President would celebrate Christmas. If we had a Jew for a President I would not see the problem, or if Jews actually made up a majority of our citizens. This isn't Israel. Take your symbols to your Jewish State. We are not a Jewish State. If people want separation of Church and State, they should want the f-cking Schul to stay out of it as well.
This is not a Christian state any more than it is a Jewish state, legally, and we're talking about public property here.


YAY for the double standards. But when Christians do this we are considered extremists.
Where's the double standard? The tree and the menorah are up. Where is the criticism for the tree from people who support the menorah? :confused: You're making **** up.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:40 PM
Where's the double standard? The tree and the menorah are up. Where is the criticism for the tree from people who support the menorah? :confused: You're making **** up.

why not allow the cross to be put up? :confused:

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:41 PM
You: Secular people celebrate Christmas therefore Christmas is a religious holiday.

Me: *Shatters that argument to shreds and LOLs*


Your breathtaking illogic is uncommonly entertaining, I must admit.

Nowhere has regice or anyone put forward the non sequitir above.

On other hand, wasn't it you who moments ago was arguing that Hanukah is "secular" because secular jews also celebrate it? And you have the temerity to laugh? Christ above, you're an antisemites best advertisement.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:43 PM
The Menorah symbolizes the holiday Hanukkah. It doesn't symbolize anything else. It is not an every day or weekly or even monthly symbol in Judaism. It symbolizes the holiday in the same way that the Christmas tree symbolizes Christmas.

Considering the building a Menorah is mentioned in the Bible, it has more religious significance than does a Christmas tree, which is not mentioned in the Bible (not even the New testament).


This is not a Christian state any more than it is a Jewish state, legally, and we're talking about public property here.

Exactly. So either put some manger scenes up there and some crosses or take down that ugly ass pitchfork.



Where's the double standard? The tree and the menorah are up. Where is the criticism for the tree from people who support the menorah? :confused: You're making **** up.

Why are manger scenes and crosses banned? That IS a double standard.

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:45 PM
Maybe you should learn from us Jews, so that your people won't be so severely underrepresented when it comes to scientific/medical discoveries.

My people invented Western (modern) society and built the world. Beat that. Did Jews conquer the New World? Did Jews have colonies like the British and Spanish did? Were Benjamin Franklin, Da Vinci, Christopher Columbus, Alexander the Great, and countless other major figures and history jewish? No.

Rather retarded to compare the Jews mediocre advancements with those of the White race. But go ahead, use that Awesome SEPHARDIC IQ of yours and try and prove me wrong.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:45 PM
Your breathtaking illogic is uncommonly entertaining, I must admit.

Nowhere has regice or anyone put forward the non sequitir above.

On other hand, wasn't it you who moments ago was arguing that Hanukah is "secular" because secular jews also celebrate it? And you have the temerity to laugh? Christ above, you're an antisemites best advertisement.

but... but, "LOL" is such a water tight argument on it's own... ;)

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:46 PM
why not allow the cross to be put up? :confused:

Put it up.

Nobody cares about this really except for crazed atheists and/or raging antisemites.

de silva
12-11-2007, 07:47 PM
1) Christmas is the celebration of the birth of the "son of God."

2) Even if Billions of people celebrate Christmas that doesn't change #1.


Re #2, it may not "change" it -- as in "rules it out" -- but it certainly affects the meaning of Christmas. When those countless millions celebrate Christmas, the birth of Jesus is the farthest thing from their minds. In their minds, Christmas is a time of good cheer, of "holiday spirit", of presents, of family, of vacations -- ie, it takes on a completely secular character and is void of any religious significance.



Maybe you should learn from us Jews, so that your people won't be so severely underrepresented when it comes to scientific/medical discoveries.

Again, an antisemite's best advertisement. (Shouldn't one of you jews here be trying to shut this idiot up? He's not making you look too good, you know.)

Regice
12-11-2007, 07:47 PM
Put it up.

Nobody cares about this really except for crazed atheists and/or raging antisemites.
Too bad the cross is illegal, which is exactly what the problem is here.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 07:48 PM
No, because the Menorah has religious significance.

The Christmas tree does not. Any person can recognize that Christmas is a secular holiday, celebrated by religious and non-religious people alike. Chanuka is celebrated by Jews only.

Christmas is a secular holiday? What does it celebrate, again?

Please tell me what this symbol denotes and what the meaning of the holiday is denotes is: http://www.prague-pictures.cz/images/77.jpg

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:48 PM
Your breathtaking illogic is uncommonly entertaining, I must admit.

I almost feel bad about what I'm about to do here. We both know I meant secular, but since you imply that I was wrong:


Nowhere has regice or anyone put forward the non sequitir above.


Any person can recognize that Christmas is a secular holiday,

Ouch.


On other hand, wasn't it you who moments ago was arguing that Hanukah is "secular" because secular jews also celebrate it?

LMAO no. Please stop being retarded.

You guys are killing me tonight.



My people invented Western (modern) society and built the world. Beat that. Did Jews conquer the New World? Did Jews have colonies like the British and Spanish did? Was Benjamin Franklin a Jew?

Rather retarded to compare the Jews mediocre advancements with those of the White race. But go ahead, use that Awesome SEPHARDIC IQ of yours and try and prove me wrong.

Percentage wise, genius.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:50 PM
but... but, "LOL" is such a water tight argument on it's own... ;)

As are Ad-Hominems, and blatant avoidance of the arguments preceding the LOLs.

HoosierBoy
12-11-2007, 07:50 PM
Hopefully someday we'll have a Supreme Court that can actually read the Constitution correctly, and the whole "separation of church and state" nonsense will disappear.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:53 PM
Put it up.

Nobody cares about this really except for crazed atheists and/or raging antisemites.

what i mean and / or meant is why doesn't the white house put up a christian cross up, to be fair to christians, who are the majority anyways?

if the white house puts up a menorah, they should put up a christian cross, as well, to be fair to christians, who are the majority in the first place and not jews.

for reasons that have been outlined in this thread by me, regice, and maybe others, the manorah IS indeed a religious symbol at the most, and at the least, alludes to the jewish religion, while the christmas tree is not a religious symbol at all and does not allude to the christian religion anymore than it alludes to it's real origin the norse religion.

why does this VERY OBVIOUS double standard exist?

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:54 PM
Re #2, it may not "change" it -- as in "rules it out" -- but it certainly affects the meaning of Christmas. When those countless millions celebrate Christmas, the birth of Jesus is the farthest thing from their minds. In their minds, Christmas is a time of good cheer, of "holiday spirit", of presents, of family, of vacations -- ie, it takes on a completely secular character and is void of any religious significance.

Their way of thinking doesn't change the actual meaning of Christmas. I'm losing my patience here.




Again, an antisemite's best advertisement. (Shouldn't one of you jews here be trying to shut this idiot up? He's not making you look too good, you know.)

Truth hurts, huh?

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 07:57 PM
what i mean and / or meant is why doesn't the white house put up a christian cross up, to be fair to christians, who are the majority anyways?

if the white house puts up a menorah, they should put up a christian cross, as well, to be fair to christians, who are the majority in the first place and not jews.

for reasons that have been outlined in this thread by me and regice and maybe others, the manorah IS indeed a religious symbol at the most, and at the least, alludes to the jewish religion, while the christmas tree is not a religious symbol at all and does not allude to the christian religion anymore than it alludes to it's real origin the norse religion.

why does this OBVIOUS double standard exist?

Its not obvious at all, for all the arguments I stated in this thread (which you conveniently ignored).

The symbol of a Christian holiday - check.
The symbol of a Jewish holiday - check.

Wow what a huge double standard. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh both holiday symbols are up there!!! Lets cry and claim that the Christian one doesn't count!!!!

And people have the nerve to say Jews like to complain.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 07:57 PM
a menorah has FAR FAR more religious significance than a pine tree with lights on it.
A menorah is a bunch of sticks with candles. Everything can be reduced to its parts. The Christmas tree (named so obviously because it has nothing to do with the holiday celebrating the birth of the Christ, a religious figure) is obviously non-religious. After all, people decorate them all the time for any reason, not just to celebrate Christmas... oh... wait. :rolleyes: Try again.


you do not see stores putting up menorahs for decorations NEARLY as much as you see christmas tree, if you see menorahs AT ALL even.
Stores cater to their customers. Where large Jewish communities live and shop, Hanukkah decorations go up. So?


do you know of any non jews that decorate with a menorah other than for religious reasons (i.e. to please other jews).

i am an atheist, and i decorate my house with a christmas tree, but i would NEVER think of decorating my house with a menorah, since i am not jewish.
Why do you put up a Christmas tree if you're an atheist? That you may choose to subtract while putting up the tree at Christmas time its religious symbolism doesn't mean that the tree, in terms of the religious Christian holiday, actually lacks that symbolism.


and, most atheists and / or non jews are the same EXACT way as i am on this particular issue.
Which part? They consider Christmas trees to not be symbols of a religious holiday?

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Stores cater to their customers. Where large Jewish communities live and shop, Hanukkah decorations go up. So?


which proves my point that the menorah is either a jewish religious symbol or it alludes to the jewish religion and / or culture, whereas a christmas tree does not, since even atheists like me decorate with their houses with christmas trees.

hell, even most jews decorate their houses with christmas tree, do they not?

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:02 PM
Its not obvious at all, for all the arguments I stated in this thread (which you conveniently ignored).

The symbol of a Christian holiday - check.
The symbol of a Jewish holiday - check.

Wow what a huge double standard. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh both holiday symbols are up there!!! Lets cry and claim that the Christian one doesn't count!!!!

And people have the nerve to say Jews like to complain.

wrong.

even atheists put up christmas trees, as i do as an atheist, but no non-jew puts up a menorah unless it is to please other jews, even as twilomike has admitted.

if the christian cross were allowed to be put it, then you would have an argument, but the christian cross has been BANNED from government owned property, while the jewish menorah has not been BANNED from goverment owned property.

therefore, a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists.

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:02 PM
Their way of thinking doesn't change the actual meaning of Christmas. I'm losing my patience here.



Who in the world cares about the "actual meaning" (besides for hyperventilating militant Jews)?

What matters is what the people doing the celebrating actually believe.

If I go to a muslim's house (humor me) and break bread with him for Eid, do I care about the "actual meaning" of the celebration? Of course not.

If the entire world lost its mind and began mass celebrations of Eid along with Muslims such that the majority of those doing the celebrating were not Muslims, who would care about the "actual meaning"? It'd be just another excuse for some fun.

Same thing with Christmas. The only people who care are religious. Christians, because they like to remind Christians of just what they are celebrating ("keeping the Christ in Christmas"); and Jews like you, who just plain hate Christianity.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:04 PM
If the 10 Commandments stayed up I wouldn't see a problem with this big ass pitchfork. Neither would I see a problem with this pitchfork if crosses weren't deemed illegal.
The pitchfork, as well as the decorated firewood, are temporary holiday-centric installations. A cross is not known as the symbol of Christmas: it is the symbol of Christianity. Not quite the same thing.


But of course we have geniuses like 1devil here to tell us that a menorah has no religious significance. Either he is very ignorant of the religion of his people or he is a total liar.
The Menorah (Hanukkiah, actually) is to Hanukkah what the Christmas tree is to Christmas.


Again, I remind everyone that Crosses, manger scenes, and all religious Christian symbols are illegal. Yet the Jewish ones are not.
I don't see a solid reason for keeping manger scenes illegal. They are temporary installations just like the tree. It's a silly law that has them outlawed.


But I really would appreciate for someone to tell me that Chanukah is NOT religious, and that the Menorah does not represent the holiday.
Hanukkah is a religious holiday and the Hanukkiah (menorah) represents it. Christmas is a religious holiday and the Christmas tree represents it.


The fact that non-religious Jews celebrate Hanukah does not mean anything. The Menorah has been a religious symbol for millenia long before the Star of David came to represent the Jews (it's actually an old Khazar symbol). Not to mention that Chanukah story is told in the Talmud.
The Mogen Dovid is attributed to the flag of King David (or was it his armor?). Quite old. Long before the Temple destructions.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:08 PM
Who in the world cares about the "actual meaning" (besides for hyperventilating militant Jews)?

What matters is what the people doing the celebrating actually believe.

If I go to a muslim's house (humor me) and break bread with him for Eid, do I care about the "actual meaning" of the celebration? Of course not.

If the entire world lost its mind and began mass celebrations of Eid along with Muslims such that the majority of those doing the celebrating were not Muslims, who would care about the "actual meaning"? It'd be just another excuse for some fun.

Same thing with Christmas. The only people who care are religious. Christians, because they like to remind Christians of just what they are celebrating ("keeping the Christ in Christmas");

Maybe cause the actual meaning is what... umm.... Actually matters? Lol. This isn't rocket science here. Even if a billion extra people started randomly celebrating Eid, that wouldn't change the meaning of Eid. It just means there's a billion people in the world who are celebrating a religious holiday that they know nothing about (no-Islamophobia).

Devire ^ that does for you too.


and Jews like you, who just plain hate Christianity.

You're showing how dumb you are with this comment. Nothing I ever said even implied I hate Christianity. LMAO.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:09 PM
which proves my point that the menorah is either a jewish religious symbol or it alludes to the jewish religion and / or culture, whereas a christmas tree does not, since even atheists like me decorate with their houses with christmas trees.
Let's try this again:

Christmas Tree
Christmas
Christ.

See a commonality? Where do you lose the religious symbol thread? That you choose to put up the symbol of a religious holiday you choose to not actively celebrate means nothing.


hell, even most jews decorate their houses with christmas tree, do they not?
Only some Jews of Soviet decent (those who for decades had to put up the trees as New Year trees in the good old days when standing out as the family without a free was not a good idea). Russia, since then, has reverted to calling the tree a Christmas tree and Russians no longer put it up specifically for the New Year. They put it up for Christmas... cuz it's a symbol of a religious holiday and is part of that holiday's tradition.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:11 PM
Devire/Regice/De-Silva/desperateantisemitetryingtocomplainaboutJews logic:

I know Christmas is the celebration of Christ and all.

And I know a Christmas tree symbolizes the CELEBRATION OF CHRIST (THE SON OF GOD)

But atheists put it up too, therefore, it doesn't symbolize what it symbolizes OK?

Yes a symbol of a Christian holiday AND a symbol of a Jewish holiday is up, but I want to complain about Jews so DONT RUIN THIS FOR ME THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARDS DAMNIT!!

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:12 PM
Let's try this again:

Christmas Tree
Christmas
Christ.

See a commonality? Where do you lose the religious symbol thread? That you choose to put up the symbol of a religious holiday you choose to not actively celebrate means nothing.


Only some Jews of Soviet decent (those who for decades had to put up the trees as New Year trees in the good old days when standing out as the family without a free was not a good idea). Russia, since then, has reverted to calling the tree a Christmas tree and Russians no longer put it up specifically for the New Year. They put it up for Christmas... cuz it's a symbol of a religious holiday and is part of that holiday's tradition.

well, there is nothing christian about a christmas tree, however.

it is just a name.

it could be called a holiday tree, and it would not really change the concept of it AT ALL.

the christmas tree originates from a PAGAN holiday, anyways, for your information.

like i said, even atheists and other non christians decorate their houses with a christmas tree, but only jews or people trying to please jews would decorate thier house with a menorah.

do you now see the double standard here?

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:12 PM
Chanukah is religious, even if celebrated by atheists and agnostic Jews.
Just like Christmas is religious, even if celebrated by atheists and agnostic Christians.


Do you see any non-Jews celebrating Chanukah? No. Yet many non-Christians celebrate Christmas.
Sure, Jews who are Jews by culture/blood but are atheist often celebrate Hanukkah. Kinda how non-religious Christians celebrate Christmas.


Devil did not shut anything down. You morons think you win arguments even when people see through your lies.
What lies?

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:13 PM
A menorah is a bunch of sticks with candles.

Yes we know, nobody ever accused it of being pretty.



Why do you put up a Christmas tree if you're an atheist? That you may choose to subtract while putting up the tree at Christmas time its religious symbolism doesn't mean that the tree, in terms of the religious Christian holiday, actually lacks that symbolism.

Why should he have to answer to you? Maybe he finds Christmas trees pretty? Maybe he figures he'll just go along with the flow? Who knows? Who cares?

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:13 PM
well, there is nothing christian about a christmas tree however.


This is sig material.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:14 PM
wrong.

even atheists put up christmas trees, as i do as an atheist, but no non-jew puts up a menorah unless it is to please other jews, even as twilomike has admitted.

if the christian cross were allowed to be put it, then you would have an argument, but the christian cross has been BANNED from government owned property, while the jewish menorah has not been BANNED from goverment owned property.

therefore, a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists.

bump for a response from || renegade ||.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:15 PM
Another debate-killer. What is it with you jews, seriously?

Obviously nobody but jews celebrates hanukah; it doesn't have any secular significance to anybody but jews.

Christmas on the other hand has secular significance to virtually everybody.

And the secular significance is....? And it's different from the secular significance of Hanukkah among non-religious Jews how?

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:15 PM
This is sig material.

name one thing that is christian about a christmas tree besides the name.

is it the nice pine scent?

the pretty electric lights?

the candy cane ornaments?

"LOL @ you." :p

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:16 PM
bump for a response from || renegade ||.

This isn't rocket science here. Even if a billion extra people started randomly celebrating Eid, that wouldn't change the meaning of Eid. It just means there's a billion people in the world who are celebrating a religious holiday that they know nothing about (no-Islamophobia).

The actual meaning of Christmas, and thus, the SYMBOL FOR CHRISTMAS, has not changed, even if Atheists put it up for other reasons.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:17 PM
name one thing that is christian about a christmas tree besides the name.

is it the nice pine scent?

the pretty electric lights?

the candy canes?

"LOL @ you." :p

Uh, the fact that its a symbol of the religious celebration of the son of God? LMAO

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:18 PM
why not allow the cross to be put up? :confused:

Because it's not a temporary installation. It isn't meant to be temporary, and it doesn't represent Christmas (the birth of Christ).

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:24 PM
Maybe cause the actual meaning is what... umm.... Actually matters?

Maybe...ummm.... it actually doesn't? Cos...umm.... if it did...ummm....maybe non-Christians wouldn't..umm...celebrate it... if it...ummm.... "mattered"... get it?


Lol. This isn't rocket science here.

Yes I know. So why on earth you insist on complicating it God only knows...



Even if a billion extra people started randomly celebrating Eid, that wouldn't change the meaning of Eid. It just means there's a billion people in the world who are celebrating a religious holiday that they know nothing about (no-Islamophobia).


Exactly. And any specific symbols or customs of Eid would also come to take on a secular aspect, at which point those customs and/or symbols could -- not necessarily would -- also become... wait for it.... secularized -- just as happened with... wait for it...Christmas and... wait for it... Christmas trees.





You haven't made any direct statement to that effect but your statements do imply it. I think they do. When one stubbornly insists on ignoring the simplest and most obvious of all explanations there's clearly an agenda at work. And as jews are typically the most vociferous opponents of Christmas as a secular celebration, and as you are a jew, my suspicions are given added weight.

Also, you did say

[quote]Chanukah is also celebrated by secular (atheistic and agnostic) Jews. (Look it up, Page 1)

What was the point of saying this if not to try and pass off Hanukah as "secular"?

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:25 PM
Uh, the fact that its a symbol of the religious celebration of the son of God? LMAO

i must have missed that memo... ;)

if that were even true, why do most christians disagree with you (they are christians so they get to decide what symbolizes the birth of christ and what does not and not you. "LOL")?

and, why do i, when i am an atheist and do not give a **** about christ's birth, and MANY MANY other non christians, including some jews, have the symbol of the religious celebration of christ in my house and / or their houses?

the fact of the matter is, the jewish menorah has far great religious and / or cultural connatations then the christmas tree does, which is where the VERY OBVIOUS double standard come from.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:26 PM
Considering the building a Menorah is mentioned in the Bible, it has more religious significance than does a Christmas tree, which is not mentioned in the Bible (not even the New testament).
In terms of the holidays of Hanukkah and Christmas, which is why both of them go up annually (let's keep this in context), the symbols are identical. The menorah is mentioned in the OT but it is not a religious symbol. It's a religious tool. It doesn't symbolize Judaism.


Exactly. So either put some manger scenes up there and some crosses or take down that ugly ass pitchfork.
I'll see your manger scene and raise you the scene of the victorious Maccabees.


Why are manger scenes and crosses banned? That IS a double standard.
On the manger scene you have a point. As far as crosses, they are in the realm of the Star of David. If you really want to see a dwarfing, put up a cross and a Star of David of equal height.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:28 PM
Because it's not a temporary installation. It isn't meant to be temporary, and it doesn't represent Christmas (the birth of Christ).

so what?

the fact of the matter is that it is BANNED from government owned property, while the jewish menorah is not BANNED from government owned property.

this FACT is where the VERY OBVIOUS double standard comes from.

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:29 PM
And the secular significance is....?

The secular significance is that Christmas is: a time of good cheer; a time for being with loved ones; a time for buying gifts for loved ones; a time for taking time off work; a time of general "holiday spirit"; all of which add up to a secular tradition. The Christmas tree symbolizes this.


And it's different from the secular significance of Hanukkah among non-religious Jews how?

*Sigh* If I have to spell this out, you're either a desperado or an ignoramous. Either way, you'd do better to shut up and stop embarrassing yourself.

It's different because Hanukah doesn't any appeal to secular non-jews. On the other hand, Christmas has appeal to secular non-Christians and even to religious non-Christians -- some religious Muslims, Hindus, Buddists etc celebrate it as a secular tradition.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:29 PM
Hopefully someday we'll have a Supreme Court that can actually read the Constitution correctly, and the whole "separation of church and state" nonsense will disappear.

This thread isn't about the separation of Church and State per se, it's more about Christians whining that they are having to share the limelight.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:32 PM
what i mean and / or meant is why doesn't the white house put up a christian cross up, to be fair to christians, who are the majority anyways?
See the anti-establishment clause.


if the white house puts up a menorah, they should put up a christian cross, as well, to be fair to christians, who are the majority in the first place and not jews.
When's the last time you saw a Jew wear a menorah on a gold chain to signify their Judaism?

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:32 PM
Maybe...ummm.... it actually doesn't? Cos...umm.... if it did...ummm....maybe non-Christians wouldn't..umm...celebrate it... if it...ummm.... "mattered"... get it?\

Wrong. I swear this is just about as stupid as the argumentum ad populum logic.



Exactly. And any specific symbols or customs of Eid would also come to take on a secular aspect, at which point those customs and/or symbols could -- not necessarily would -- also become... wait for it.... secularized -- just as happened with... wait for it...Christmas and... wait for it... Christmas trees.

No they wouldn't. They still have religious significance, and they still symbolize what they originally symbolized.



\
You haven't made any direct statement to that effect but your statements do imply it. I think they do. When one stubbornly insists on ignoring the simplest and most obvious of all explanations there's clearly an agenda at work.


What a coincidence. I was just thinking the same thing....



and as you are a jew, my suspicions are given added weight.

I clearly stated I don't mind the cross being put up. That's hardly anti-Christian. Oh, and I'm agnostic and think all religion is bull****.


And as jews are typically the most vociferous opponents of Christmas as a secular celebration,

Can I get a source for this? I think I can officially call you a bigot with some merit now.




Also, you did say

(Look it up, Page 1)

What was the point of saying this if not to try and pass off Hanukah as "secular"?

The point was to show Christmas = Chanukah, in terms of religious significance. Not to pass off Chanukah as religious. So yea, don't feel bad. Its not like everyone else hasn't gotten that. Oh wait. Yes they have.

HoosierBoy
12-11-2007, 08:33 PM
This thread isn't about the separation of Church and State per se, it's more about Christians whining that they are having to share the limelight.

The point is that this topic shouldn't even come up if the Supreme Court had read the Constitution correctly throughout the years.

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:33 PM
The menorah is mentioned in the OT but it is not a religious symbol. It's a religious tool. It doesn't symbolize Judaism.


Noooo, of course not. Who would ever be stupid enough to draw a connection between a menorah and Judaism? Sheesh. Everyone knows that Christians, Muslims, hindus, atheists, sheeet, everyone and their dog are forever putting up menorahs... er... NOT

On the other hand, plenty of non-Christians do put up Christmas trees. This is a fact. A fact on the ground. You can hate it, you can argue with their reasoning for doing it (just as you do), you can try to discourage them (as you do) or stop them (as you do), but you cannot change the fact that they do.

TwiloMike
12-11-2007, 08:35 PM
wrong.

even atheists put up christmas trees, as i do as an atheist, but no non-jew puts up a menorah unless it is to please other jews, even as twilomike has admitted.
Yo, dufus, even atheists (who are culturally Jews) put up menorahs, as do I as an atheist. Does this effectively make Hanukkah a secular holiday?

This also strikes down your stupid allegation that atheists put up the menorah only to "please other jews".


if the christian cross were allowed to be put it, then you would have an argument, but the christian cross has been BANNED from government owned property, while the jewish menorah has not been BANNED from goverment owned property.

therefore, a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists.
Nope. No double standard. Holiday-specific decorations for each holiday are legal (except the manger scene, which IS a double standard).

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:36 PM
i must have missed that memo... ;)

if that were even true, why do most christians disagree with you (they are christians so they get to decide what symbolizes the birth of christ and what does not and not you. "LOL")?

They don't.


and, why do i, when i am an atheist and do not give a **** about christ's birth, and MANY MANY other non christians, including some jews, have the symbol of the religious celebration of christ in my house and / or their houses?

Cause they're dumb or think it looks pretty.


the fact of the matter is, the jewish menorah has far great religious and / or cultural connatations then the christmas tree does, which is where the VERY OBVIOUS double standard come from.

Actually thats not a fact. Far from it. As far as what an "obvious" double standard is:

Christian holiday symbol = Jewish holiday symbol


Christian symbol (cross) != Jewish holiday symbol (menorah)

Christian symbol (cross) = Jewish symbol (star of David)

This isn't rocket science. Even you should be able to comprehend this without too much trouble.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:37 PM
When's the last time you saw a Jew wear a menorah on a gold chain to signify their Judaism?

the jewish menorah is not as significant as the star of david, but that does NOTHING to refute my argument that a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists here.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:40 PM
Christian holiday symbol = Jewish holiday symbol


it is not as simple as that.

the jewish menorah has FAR FAR closer ties to jews then the christmas tree does to christians, for all of the reasons that i, regice, and others have mentioned in this thread.

and, thus, a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists. (yay, repetition for teh winz0rz!!1!!one!11!. hehe. :D)

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:42 PM
it is not as simple as that.

the jewish menorah has FAR FAR closer ties to jews then the christmas tree does to christians, for all of the reasons that i, regice, and others have mentioned in this thread.

and, thus, a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists. (yay, repetition for teh winz0rz!!1!!one!11!. hehe. :D)

Its only a double standard if Menorah (symbol of holiday) = Cross (symbol of religion), which is absolutely retarded.

I think I'm pretty much done with this thread.

I think I'm going to have to set standards over who can debate me, cause this is getting ridiculous.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:44 PM
think it looks pretty.


that is exactly my point.

the white house might just be putting up the christmas tree because they think it is pretty, and not for religious reasons and / or to please christians, whereas the jewish menorah is not pretty, and it is VERY OBVIOUS that it is ONLY being put up to please jews.

and, thus, a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists.

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:45 PM
No they wouldn't. They still have religious significance, and they still symbolize what they originally symbolized.

Yes, as well as taking on a secular meaning.

Take the Swastika. (Oh boy, you'll love this one, I'm sure.) Are you aware of what it's "original meaning" was? Hmm? Does it have that meaning today? Hmm? Clearly the meaning behind symbols depends on the views of the people using those symbols and not on what Renegade would dictate to them.

Can I pull a renegad now? Couple of LOLs, a declaration of game-set-match and a victory dance?



Can I get a source for this? I think I can officially call you a bigot with some merit now.

Sure, if you feel ad hominens are a valid form of argument, knock yourself out.





The point was to show Christmas = Chanukah, in terms of religious significance. Not to pass off Chanukah as religious.

I honestly don't think you could tie yourself in a logical loop and tighter than if you were actually trying to. LOL

You don't have to pass of Hanukah as religious; everyone already knows it is. What in the world point were you trying to make above?

Look, I'll take that LOL back and give you a chance to redeem yourself.

In fact, I'll do the legwork for you. Perhaps you meant "not to pass off Hanukah as secular" [instead of "religious"]

But... oh excuse me, I'm going to have to laugh.. that still doesn't change a thing. Because if your point was to "show Christmas = Chanukah, in terms of religious significance" then your point was redundant, because everyone already knows that Hanukah is a religious celebration, and a purely Jewish celebration, of no significance to non-Jews at all. In other words, completely unlike Christmas.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:46 PM
Its only a double standard if Menorah (symbol of holiday) = Cross (symbol of religion), which is absolutely retarded.


i have NEVER said that a christian cross should be put up while the star of david should be BANNED.

you still have yet to refute my argument that a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists, since the menorah has far closer ties to jews then the christmas tree does to christians.

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:50 PM
I think I'm going to have to set standards over who can debate me, cause this is getting ridiculous.


I think you should. I can appreciate your enthusiasm, but you'd benefit from a few more hours in the sand pit with the other children before coming out to play with the big boys.

de silva
12-11-2007, 08:52 PM
Yo, dufus, even atheists (who are culturally Jews) put up menorahs, as do I as an atheist. Does this effectively make Hanukkah a secular holiday?

It would if large numbers of non-jews started doing it. Not 'secular Jews', non-Jews.


And thanks for the negs Mikey. Can't beat, neg 'em. Good ole Nuggz used to play me the same way.


PS -- how does one get to "culturally" be a Jew? Can I do that? Can you let me know what the requirements are? Thanks.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:57 PM
that is exactly my point.

the white house might just be putting up the christmas tree because they think it is pretty,

Which is why its up there all year, right?

Oh wait...



i have NEVER said that a christian cross should be put up while the star of david should be BANNED.

you still have yet to refute my argument that a VERY OBVIOUS double standard exists, since the menorah has far closer ties to jews then the christmas tree does to christians.

In your opinion a Christian holiday symbol and a Jewish holiday symbol both being put up is a double standard.

The reason I haven't refuted that is because.... well.... Its too funny.

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 08:59 PM
Yo, dufus, even atheists (who are culturally Jews) put up menorahs, as do I as an atheist. Does this effectively make Hanukkah a secular holiday?

This also strikes down your stupid allegation that atheists put up the menorah only to "please other jews".


yo, dufus, i said the jewish menorah has religious AND CULTURAL ties.

so, the fact that you do not believe in "god" is irrelevant, since you are still an ethnic jew and / or have been brought up in a JEWISH CULTURE and / or household. :)

(and, reported for calling me a dufus... just kidding. no akr. ;))

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-11-2007, 08:59 PM
Yes, as well as taking on a secular meaning.

Not unless the majority of secular people celebrate Christmas (which they don't).


Take the Swastika. (Oh boy, you'll love this one, I'm sure.)

I have no doubt that you love it more...


Are you aware of what it's "original meaning" was? Hmm? Does it have that meaning today? Hmm? Clearly the meaning behind symbols depends on the views of the people using those symbols and not on what Renegade would dictate to them.

The actual meaning of the swastika is not Nazism. So whats your point?


Can I pull a renegad now? Couple of LOLs, a declaration of game-set-match and a victory dance?

I only LOL.



Sure, if you feel ad hominens are a valid form of argument, knock yourself out.


I think you should. I can appreciate your enthusiasm, but you'd benefit from a few more hours in the sand pit with the other children before coming out to play with the big boys.

I LOLed.

Wheres my source?



I honestly don't think you could tie yourself in a logical loop and tighter than if you were actually trying to. LOL

You don't have to pass of Hanukah as religious; everyone already knows it is. What in the world point were you trying to make above?

Look, I'll take that LOL back and give you a chance to redeem yourself.

In fact, I'll do the legwork for you. Perhaps you meant "not to pass off Hanukah as secular" [instead of "religious]

LOL @ you wasting all that typing when you clearly knew what I meant. Thats a kind of pathetic form of debating. .



But... oh excuse me, I'm going to have to laugh.. that still doesn't change a thing. Because if you're point was to "show Christmas = Chanukah, in terms of religious significance" then your point was redundant, because everyone already knows that Hanukah is a religious celebration, and a purely Jewish celebration, of no significance to non-Jews at all. In other words, completely unlike Christmas.

The significance to other people doesn't change the actual meaning/significance of the holiday (we're going in circles).

cuivarieldar
12-11-2007, 09:01 PM
Which is why its up there all year, right?

Oh wait...

a pine tree looks better in the winter (which happens to coincide with christmas) since the leaves on the other types of trees fall in the winter in the washington D.C. area.

de silva
12-11-2007, 09:14 PM
Not unless the majority of secular people celebrate Christmas (which they don't).

Well, well, this is progress. So now numbers seem to matter. Just as I always thought.

Now that we've established that, why should it be a majority? Why can't it simply be a significant minority? And how are you going to go about defining "secular"? Can there be "secular Christians" or do the numbers of the secular have to come from people with no Christian identification at all?

You don't have to answer that, btw. You can save yourself the trouble and simply admit that vast numbers of people across the world celebrate Christmas without viewing their celebrating as in any way being of religious significance. I mean, that is so obvious to everyone else that they don't even bother debating it. It's only the axe-grinders like you who have a problem with it.



The actual meaning of the swastika is not Nazism. So whats your point?

It symbolizes Nazism, the same way that the Christmas tree symbolizes the secular tradition of Christmas. Yet, at one point in time, the swastika symbolized something else entirely; the meaning of the symbol changed. There are still, however, many people across the world to whom the swastika retains its religious significance. These people might not like what the swastika also symbolizes (nazism), but they are obviously powerless to change it. In the same manner, the Christmas tree used to only symbolize (as far as I know) the religious celebration of Christmas, but its meaning has changed such that it also symbolizes the secular tradition of Christmas. Christians may not like this, but they, like the swastika people, are powerless to change it.

But come on, you already knew all this.



LOL @ you wasting all that typing when you clearly knew what I meant. Thats a kind of pathetic form of debating. .

Forestalling any shenanigans you might have pulled was clearly quite effective.




he significance to other people doesn't change the actual meaning/significance of the holiday (we're going in circles).

Yes, ever tighter circles, with your horseshyt slowly being squeezed right out. About now would be a pretty good time to quit I think.

mroth86
12-11-2007, 09:27 PM
wtf is the point of this? The menorah is to Hanukkah as the christmas tree is to christmas...the white house has a christmas tree too.


and plus, olive oil lasting for 8 days for candles is not near as violent as romans putting up a guy on a cross and hammering nails through his flesh. you get what i'm saying?

de silva
12-11-2007, 09:33 PM
wtf is the point of this? The menorah is to Hanukkah as the christmas tree is to christmas...the white house has a christmas tree too.

You mean "what is this" apart from the fact that no one but Jews celebrates Hanukah, which means the menorah is a purely religious symbol?


and plus, olive oil lasting for 8 days for candles is not near as violent as romans putting up a guy on a cross and hammering nails through his flesh. you get what i'm saying?

That's the way Roth my man, bash those damn Christian bastards. Sheesh, the cheek of those people, daring to remain Christian in this here 21st century.

mroth86
12-11-2007, 09:35 PM
You mean "what is this" apart from the fact that no one but Jews celebrates Hanukah, which means the menorah is a purely religious symbol?



That's the way Roth my man, bash those damn Christian bastards. Sheesh, the cheek of those people, daring to remain Christian in this here 21st century.

LOL...yea well, how is the menorah anymore of a religious symbol than the christmas tree?

de silva
12-11-2007, 09:37 PM
LOL...yea well, how is the menorah anymore of a religious symbol than the christmas tree?

Read the thread. (My responses in particular.)

mroth86
12-11-2007, 09:39 PM
Read the thread. (My responses in particular.)

well technically, i think one could make the point that neither the menorah nor christmas tree should be erected.........

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-12-2007, 05:40 AM
a pine tree looks better in the winter (which happens to coincide with christmas) since the leaves on the other types of trees fall in the winter in the washington D.C. area.

So you're saying you think it will still be there in March? :D

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-12-2007, 05:48 AM
wtf is the point of this?

to complayne bout dem ev1l j00zzz hoo r contr0ling da w0rldz!!!!!!!!

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-12-2007, 05:50 AM
Well, well, this is progress. So now numbers seem to matter. Just as I always thought.

Now that we've established that, why should it be a majority? Why can't it simply be a significant minority? And how are you going to go about defining "secular"? Can there be "secular Christians" or do the numbers of the secular have to come from people with no Christian identification at all?

You don't have to answer that, btw. You can save yourself the trouble and simply admit that vast numbers of people across the world celebrate Christmas without viewing their celebrating as in any way being of religious significance. I mean, that is so obvious to everyone else that they don't even bother debating it. It's only the axe-grinders like you who have a problem with it.

Sorry man, I'm interested in facts. All you do is make claims (i.e "Jews are the biggest opposers of the secular celebration of Christmas) without any actual evidence to back it up. That is not how things work amongst educated people.

So yea, Christmas is still a religious holiday, because most people celebrating Christmas are doing so because they're Christian. That's (the religious aspect) is the meaning of the holiday, and the tree is a symbol of that meaning.



It symbolizes Nazism, the same way that the Christmas tree symbolizes the secular tradition of Christmas.

:rolleyes:


Yet, at one point in time, the swastika symbolized something else entirely; the meaning of the symbol changed. There are still, however, many people across the world to whom the swastika retains its religious significance. These people might not like what the swastika also symbolizes (nazism), but they are obviously powerless to change it. In the same manner, the Christmas tree used to only symbolize (as far as I know) the religious celebration of Christmas, but its meaning has changed such that it also symbolizes the secular tradition of Christmas. Christians may not like this, but they, like the swastika people, are powerless to change it.

But come on, you already knew all this.

Nice rant. However, to the great majority of the world, swastika = nazism.

Lets take this argument in another direction (I'm not retracting my old arguments, I'm just adding a new one). Lets say for example, that you weren't an antisemite. Lets say for example, that you even were offended when someone expressed hate toward Jews. Then if you saw someone with a swastika necklace you might not like it. But lets say you knew that for that specific person it was a religious symbol. Then you might not mind right?

George Bush is a devout Christian.



Forestalling any shenanigans you might have pulled was clearly quite effective.

I don't pull Shenanigans.



About now would be a pretty good time to quit I think.

Then go ahead before you make an even bigger fool out of yourself.

grup910
12-12-2007, 05:58 AM
The secular significance is that Christmas is: a time of good cheer; a time for being with loved ones; a time for buying gifts for loved ones; a time for taking time off work; a time of general "holiday spirit"; all of which add up to a secular tradition. The Christmas tree symbolizes this.


a time of the most suicides and drunk driving accidents per year. :-o

grup910
12-12-2007, 06:11 AM
You mean "what is this" apart from the fact that no one but Jews celebrates Hanukah, which means the menorah is a purely religious symbol?


These anti-semite idiots must think there are no jews in the white house or in washington. I guess they think all jews are walking around with peyes, long black coats and siddurs praying everywhere, and that no jew observes hanukkah in a secular way, as a traditional and cultural holiday not a religious one. what a bunch of hypocritical morons. :p

de silva
12-12-2007, 06:26 AM
a time of the most suicides and drunk driving accidents per year. :-o

Shyt man, you're right! Think of all the innocent people dying!

We need to ban this damn Christmas!

Time for a War on Christmas I say! Oh, wait, that's already been waged for years now...

de silva
12-12-2007, 06:32 AM
These anti-semite idiots must think there are no jews in the white house or in washington.

Oh boy... er, excuse me.. .oy vey. Even your comrade Renegade must be rolling his eyes at this.



I guess they think all jews are walking around with peyes, long black coats and siddurs praying everywhere, and that no jew observes hanukkah in a secular way, as a traditional and cultural holiday not a religious one.

And to round out your trifecta of stupidity we have this clunker.

This after I have already accepted that secular Jews celebrate Hanukah. Secular Jews. Jews. Not secular non-Jews, secular Jews. Geddit?

In contrast... secular non-Christians celebrate Christmas by the millions the world over.

grup910
12-12-2007, 06:32 AM
Shyt man, you're right! Think of all the innocent people dying!

We need to ban this damn Christmas!

Time for a War on Christmas I say! Oh, wait, that's already been waged for years now...

yeah, they're allowing a "war to be waged" on christmas, when it's the time of year that they make the most money. you're delusional. :p

grup910
12-12-2007, 06:36 AM
Oh boy... er, excuse me.. .oy vey. Even your comrade Renegade must be rolling his eyes at this.




And to round out your trifecta of stupidity we have this clunker.

This after I have already accepted that secular Jews celebrate Hanukah. Secular Jews. Jews. Not secular non-Jews, secular Jews. Geddit?

In contrast... secular non-Christians celebrate Christmas by the millions the world over.

I'm not jewish, and I observe hanukkah with my secular jewish friends. I also don't put up a christmas tree, and am in fact actively offended by the cutting down of trees for the "celebration" of christian holidays, or for any other similarly selfish, disrespectful and self-important reasons. Geddit? :rolleyes:

de silva
12-12-2007, 06:47 AM
I'm not jewish, and I observe hanukkah with my secular jewish friends. I also don't put up a christmas tree, and am in fact actively offended by the cutting down of trees for the "celebration" of christian holidays, or for any other similarly selfish, disrespectful and self-important reasons. Geddit? :rolleyes:

Clearly your jew buddies have done quite a job on you.

Why aren't you offended by the ghastly "kosher" slaughter methods jews use to kill animals? You really cry over a damn tree more than the severe suffering kosher inflicts on animals? Besides plenty of people put up plastic trees.

de silva
12-12-2007, 07:02 AM
Sorry man, I'm interested in facts.

You could demonstrate that by actually bringing some to the table for once.


So yea, Christmas is still a religious holiday, because most people celebrating Christmas are doing so because they're Christian. That's (the religious aspect) is the meaning of the holiday, and the tree is a symbol of that meaning.

And millions -- not a small numer, millions, hundreds of milions -- celebrate it as a secular "festive" tradition. And to them the tree symbolizes this secular tradition. If you disagree, take it up with them; I'm not secular.



Nice rant.

Translation: you totally kicked my butt my ego is too big to let it go without a comeback, no matter how feeble.


However, to the great majority of the world, swastika = nazism.

And the point is? christmas tree=christmas? Is that it? Why would you think restating the obvious is any sort of retort? Oh... silly me.. that's right... your butt was kicked and you to make a pretence of retorting. Well done.

(I won't bother deconstructing -- read "demolishing" -- your improper use of "=", either. I'm feeling generous.)



Lets take this argument in another direction (I'm not retracting my old arguments, I'm just adding a new one).

Translation: In fact, I am backpeddling, because I can see that tack was a dead end but I hope no one else notices.


Lets say for example, that you weren't an antisemite. Lets say for example, that you even were offended when someone expressed hate toward Jews.

I know you jew boys have got a sweet little franchise going with that "antisemitism" deal, but the fact is "hate" (animosity, dislike) towards jews is very often justified and fully warranted. Of course, at others time clearly not warranted. Deciding whether dislike or "hate" is warranted would require people to think of jews the way they think about...ummm... you know, the way they think about any other group of human beings. But you don't allow for that, do you? In your fantasy world, no matter what Jews do they are above reproach.

But I digress. Let's carry on with your little thought experiment.



Then if you saw someone with a swastika necklace you might not like it. But lets say you knew that for that specific person it was a religious symbol. Then you might not mind right?

Ooookay, I'm following. Continue.

grup910
12-12-2007, 07:06 AM
Clearly your jew buddies have done quite a job on you.

Why aren't you offended by the ghastly "kosher" slaughter methods jews use to kill animals? You really cry over a damn tree more than the severe suffering kosher inflicts on animals? Besides plenty of people put up plastic trees.

plastic is arguably worse, since it's a petroleum product that harms the environment both in its making and in its disposal. either one is fittingly symbolic of the christian culture of death, though.

and nice way to change the topic. when did the thread become about the laws of kashrut? :rolleyes:

de silva
12-12-2007, 07:15 AM
plastic is arguably worse, since it's a petroleum product that harms the environment both in its making and in its disposal. either one is fittingly symbolic of the christian culture of death, though.

Ah those damn Christians, they just can't put a foot right can they...


when did the thread become about the laws of kashrut? :rolleyes:

The moment you poked your jew nose into it with your horseshyt about being "offended" by cutting down trees. Only fitting then that I reply with how offended I am by your ghastly primitive slaughter methods. I suppose they fit in well with the jewish mentality of inflicting gratuitous pain though, so I can see where you're coming from.

grup910
12-12-2007, 07:16 AM
Ah those damn Christians, they just can't put a foot right can they...



The moment you poked your jew nose into it with your horseshyt about being "offended" by cutting down trees. Only fitting then that I reply with how offended I am by your ghastly primitive slaughter methods. I suppose they fit in well with the jewish mentality of inflicting gratuitous pain though, so I can see where you're coming from.

wtf are you talking about? the thread is about christmas trees and menorahs, not laws of kosher. i guess you really are as confused as you seem. O.o

grup910
12-12-2007, 07:20 AM
I suppose they fit in well with the jewish mentality of inflicting gratuitous pain though, so I can see where you're coming from.

http://www.come2jesus.com.au/inquisition2.jpg
http://staffwww.fullcoll.edu/tmorris/elements_of_ecology/images/inquisition.gif
http://www.thenextleft.com/blogatory/archives/images/Abu%20Ghraib%20Series%203-06%20-%2030.JPG
http://ch.indymedia.org/images/2004/05/22916.jpg
http://watch.windsofchange.net/pics/I5628-2004May05.JPG

:-o

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-12-2007, 07:38 AM
You could demonstrate that by actually bringing some to the table for once.

We both agree that Christmas tree symbolizes a religious holiday to millions of people. However, you're saying that in addition to that, there are also millions of people who have a different symbolism for the tree. The burden of proof is on you.



Translation: you totally kicked my butt my ego is too big to let it go without a comeback, no matter how feeble.

And you blame me for LOLing.


And the point is? christmas tree=christmas? Is that it? Why would you think restating the obvious is any sort of retort? Oh... silly me.. that's right... your butt was kicked and you to make a pretence of retorting. Well done.

Actually, the point was that tehe great majority of the world.... well.... Screw it. I'm not going to restate it. You missed my point in the first page of the thread and you missed my point again. No surprises here. Just poor reading comprehension.


Translation: In fact, I am backpeddling, because I can see that tack was a dead end but I hope no one else notices.

I deliberately stated that I still stand by my arguments and are not retracting them. This must be that reading comprehension thing again.


I know you jew boys have got a sweet little franchise going with that "antisemitism" deal, but the fact is "hate" (animosity, dislike) towards jews is very often justified and fully warranted. Of course, at others time clearly not warranted. Deciding whether dislike or "hate" is warranted would require people to think of jews the way they think about...ummm... you know, the way they think about any other group of human beings. But you don't allow for that, do you? In your fantasy world, no matter what Jews do they are above reproach.

So in your opinion, sometimes prejudice is justified. LOL again.



But I digress. Let's carry on with your little thought experiment.




Ooookay, I'm following. Continue.

George Bush, head of the White House, is a devout Christian.

de silva
12-12-2007, 08:56 AM
So in your opinion, sometimes prejudice is justified. LOL again.
.

Anyone reading your blather would quickly see you have no problem with your prejudices against Christianity.


In any case, that that wasn't even remotely my point should make quite clear to all by now -- as if it wasn't already -- that you absolutely zero interest actually debating anything at all.

For who, but a savage jew on a holy mission, could possibly understand "deciding" to imply "prejudice". Let me spell out just in case you truly don't understand it (instead of just being the said savage jew I picked you for), if one has to decide whether the collective behavior of jews characterises them then one, by definition, cannot be "prejudiced", for if he were prejudiced he wouldn't need to "decide", his mind would already be made up. And when it comes to Christmas -- or indeed anything smacking of a positive portrayal of Christianity -- yep, you rest quite assured the Foxman's boys will have something to say about that. No one need take my word it, though, they can just follow the evidence themselves. But first they need to allow that -- gosh, shock, horror -- Jews may -- maybe, perhaps, the possibility exists -- not be as kind, sweet, give-you-their-last-dollar, eternally oppressed we are forever assured they are -- and sheesh, who would be so boorish to believe that Jews are, definitely are just that sweet, kind and meek, all the time, everywhere, because that would actually be a case of prejudice.

Because you're obviously a rather dense fkker (surprisingly dense for a Christophobic judeo-jihadi), you've inadvertently caused me to expose far more of your agenda than I had ever even meant to bother doing. Now that deserves a healthy LOL.

cuivarieldar
12-12-2007, 09:05 AM
So you're saying you think it will still be there in March? :D

why, yes, but of course!... :D :p ;)

grup910
12-12-2007, 09:07 AM
Anyone reading your blather would quickly see you have no problem with your prejudices against Christianity.


christianity's an ideology. you're making slurs about jews as people. that's what makes you a despicable anti-semite.


btw, christianity sucks donkey balls.


see the difference? :rolleyes:

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-12-2007, 09:17 AM
Anyone reading your blather would quickly see you have no problem with your prejudices against Christianity.

Not anymore than my prejudice against Judaism, or any other religion.



In any case, that that wasn't even remotely my point should make quite clear to all by now -- as if it wasn't already -- that you absolutely zero interest actually debating anything at all.

Says the man who avoided all my arguments.


For who, but a savage jew on a holy mission, could possibly understand "deciding" to imply "prejudice". Let me spell out just in case you truly don't understand it (instead of just being the said savage jew I picked you for), if one has to decide whether the collective behavior of jews characterises them then one, by definition, cannot be "prejudiced", for if he were prejudiced he wouldn't need to "decide", his mind would already be made up.

I never mentioned anything about deciding. Are you on drugs?


And when it comes to Christmas -- or indeed anything smacking of a positive portrayal of Christianity -- yep, you rest quite assured the Foxman's boys will have something to say about that. No one need take my word it, though, they can just follow the evidence themselves. But first they need to allow that -- gosh, shock, horror -- Jews may -- maybe, perhaps, the possibility exists -- not be as kind, sweet, give-you-their-last-dollar, eternally oppressed we are forever assured they are -- and sheesh, who would be so boorish to believe that Jews are, definitely are just that sweet, kind and meek, all the time, everywhere, because that would actually be a case of prejudice.

Ad Hominem/Strawman.


Because you're obviously a rather dense fkker (surprisingly dense for a Christophobic judeo-jihadi), you've inadvertently caused me to expose far more of your agenda than I had ever even meant to bother doing. Now that deserves a healthy LOL.

LOL again at this exposing me. All it was, was baseless desperate AD Hominem rantings.

de silva
12-12-2007, 06:35 PM
christianity's an ideology. you're making slurs about jews as people. that's what makes you a despicable anti-semite.

Actually, I was just responding to the vicious attacks made by the Jews on this thread. Or shouldn't I say that? I mean, devil1, renegade, miketwilo and yourself (most likely, despite what you claim) are all Jews. There's no reason I shouldn't notice this, not least since knee-jerk ad hominem charges of "antisemite" don't bother me in the least.



btw, christianity sucks donkey balls.


You're entitled to your opinion. I think even (non-jewish) atheists find it infinitely more pleasant than the muck that side-locked, head-bobbing wall-woshippers engage in, however.

TwiloMike
12-12-2007, 08:41 PM
[quote]And thanks for the negs Mikey. Can't beat, neg 'em. Good ole Nuggz used to play me the same way.
You're very welcome. There's more where that came from.


PS -- how does one get to "culturally" be a Jew? Can I do that? Can you let me know what the requirements are? Thanks.
Grow up in a Jewish home (best way to do it).

1devil
12-12-2007, 09:03 PM
Actually, I was just responding to the vicious attacks made by the Jews on this thread. Or shouldn't I say that? I mean, devil1, renegade, miketwilo and yourself (most likely, despite what you claim) are all Jews. There's no reason I shouldn't notice this, not least since knee-jerk ad hominem charges of "antisemite" don't bother me in the least.




You're entitled to your opinion. I think even (non-jewish) atheists find it infinitely more pleasant than the muck that side-locked, head-bobbing wall-woshippers engage in, however.

For one who claims not to be bothered you sure are doing an awful lot of whimpering. Carry on.

TwiloMike
12-12-2007, 09:06 PM
Actually, I was just responding to the vicious attacks made by the Jews on this thread. Or shouldn't I say that? I mean, devil1, renegade, miketwilo and yourself (most likely, despite what you claim) are all Jews. There's no reason I shouldn't notice this, not least since knee-jerk ad hominem charges of "antisemite" don't bother me in the least.
Please point out the "vicious attacks" that came from me. Thanks.

de silva
12-12-2007, 09:52 PM
You're very welcome. There's more where that came from.

Sadly shutting up the opposition rather than proving them wrong works so well I can hardly blame you.



Grow up in a Jewish home (best way to do it).

So in other words I can't do it. I knew that already but it's nice to confirmation, cos for some weird reason there's a lot of denial out there that jews see themselves as a race.

Big Hype
12-12-2007, 11:58 PM
I think even (non-jewish) atheists find it infinitely more pleasant than the muck that side-locked, head-bobbing wall-woshippers engage in, however.

Ken!

Big Hype
12-13-2007, 12:01 AM
My IQ is guaranteed levels above yours

So says the 24 year old undergrad who lives with his parents.

RIP Quorthon
12-13-2007, 12:15 AM
Even for people who aren't religious, this should at least cause some concern because we apparently have no separation of Synagogue and State.

And for some reason Atheists always ignore the largely influential Jewish minority.

:rolleyes:

coolworkout
12-13-2007, 12:16 AM
wow so a few percent of the country can do something but 70% can't. this country is ass backwards

I agree, it's out of control. I wish political correctness didn't exist. Damn democrats.

RIP Quorthon
12-13-2007, 12:16 AM
What about Festivus!! Where is the damned aluminum pole!! :mad:

Yeah!! :mad:

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-13-2007, 06:44 AM
So says the 24 year old undergrad who lives with his parents.

Speaking irrelevantly.. A sign of low-IQ.

I'm sorry about that :(

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-13-2007, 06:45 AM
Actually, I was just responding to the vicious attacks made by the Jews on this thread.

ROFL @ vicious attacks.

TwiloMike
12-13-2007, 06:56 AM
Sadly shutting up the opposition rather than proving them wrong works so well I can hardly blame you.
Negs are not meant to shut you up. They're meant to show displeasure and lower your greens. Your persecution (or drama queen) complex is strong.


So in other words I can't do it.
Which part of "best way to do it" means that that is the "only way to do it"? Don't attribute to me things I didn't say.


I knew that already but it's nice to confirmation, cos for some weird reason there's a lot of denial out there that jews see themselves as a race.
What does culture have to do with race?

Big Hype
12-15-2007, 11:32 PM
Speaking irrelevantly.. A sign of low-IQ.

I'm sorry about that :(
Well if you want relevance, here are some relevant facts for you:


The high Jewish IQ belongs to Ashkenazim
You're Sephardic
Sephardic Jews aren't known for having High IQ's
On the off-chance that you do have an IQ higher than mine, you're still pretty retarded for being 24, not out of college, and still living with your parents

Oh the impressive Sephardic IQ!

sindarelf
12-15-2007, 11:43 PM
Speaking irrelevantly.. A sign of low-IQ.

I'm sorry about that :(

you must have an EXTREMELY low IQ then, in that case, || renegade ||. :)

(VERY serious)

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-16-2007, 05:41 AM
Well if you want relevance, here are some relevant facts for you:


The high Jewish IQ belongs to Ashkenazim

You're Sephardic
Sephardic Jews aren't known for having High IQ's


Sephardic Jews haven't been extensively studied as Ashkenazi Jews have - And I wasn't even referring to my ethnicity as a reason for my IQ. So yea - this is more speaking irrelevantly (a sign of low IQ :( )


On the off-chance that you do have an IQ higher than mine, you're still pretty retarded for being 24, not out of college, and still living with your parents

Oh the impressive Sephardic IQ!

Oh, so you think having a high IQ is highly correlated with immediate success? Oh, thats sad :(

RIKTER
12-16-2007, 06:46 AM
Im not jewish, but I think most clear thinking people would agree that the menorah is of higher religious importance then the christmas tree which is of zero religious importance, even if that means the menorah is only a one on a scale of 1-10. There are no mention of christams trees etc in the christian faith as opposed to the menorah which is mentioned and given specific instructions of preparing it for Hannukah. With that said, the level of importance of what the cross means to christians and what the menorah means to jews are two completely different things.

Big Hype
12-17-2007, 09:02 PM
Sephardic Jews haven't been extensively studied as Ashkenazi Jews have - And I wasn't even referring to my ethnicity as a reason for my IQ. So yea - this is more speaking irrelevantly (a sign of low IQ :( )



Oh, so you think having a high IQ is highly correlated with immediate success? Oh, thats sad :(
Well if you must know, Sephardic Jews are the reason Israel's average IQ is 90.

But you're right, having a high IQ certainly does not account for immediate success. Then again it doesn't account for going into someone's threads and claiming they're sexually frustrated, either. And you want to talk about bein irrelevant. LAWL

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-18-2007, 10:41 AM
Well if you must know, Sephardic Jews are the reason Israel's average IQ is 90.

Lets see....

3.5 million Ashkenazi Jews in Israel
Population of Israel: 7.1 million

Average overall Ashkenazi IQ = 115.
Israel's average IQ = 90

If Israel's average IQ is because of Sephardics, that would mean that Sephardics average IQ is 65. Yeaaaa buddy, the average Sephardic Jew is retarded. LOL :rolleyes: .

What's funny is you know that the conclusion you came to based on the information you have (and don't have) is invalid. I don't even have to explain why (I hope).


But you're right, having a high IQ certainly does not account for immediate success. Then again it doesn't account for going into someone's threads and claiming they're sexually frustrated, either. And you want to talk about bein irrelevant. LAWL

Its very relevant. Sexual frustration often leads to hostility, which explains the person's attitude. I'm sorry you couldn't make that connection.

J-Bol
12-18-2007, 11:32 AM
Let's try to make this very simple.

Menorah = Jewish symbol
hanukkah = Jewish religion
Menorah, Hanukkah, & Jews are all related

Christmas tree = pagan symbol (that right there should end any debate on this subject)
Christmas = Christian religion

Christmas tree is not related to Christianity other than being put up on their religious holiday.

A christmas tree is not a Christian symbol.

Big Hype
12-18-2007, 01:06 PM
Lets see....

3.5 million Ashkenazi Jews in Israel
Population of Israel: 7.1 million

Average overall Ashkenazi IQ = 115.
Israel's average IQ = 90

If Israel's average IQ is because of Sephardics, that would mean that Sephardics average IQ is 65. Yeaaaa buddy, the average Sephardic Jew is retarded. LOL :rolleyes: .

Either the average Sephardic Jew is retarded or Ashkenazim aren't as smart as the myth says. Trust me, there isn't a significant Arab population that you can thank for that.


What's funny is you know that the conclusion you came to based on the information you have (and don't have) is invalid. I don't even have to explain why (I hope).

Read above.


Its very relevant. Sexual frustration often leads to hostility, which explains the person's attitude. I'm sorry you couldn't make that connection.

Wow you must be very wimpish if you consider this thread hostile. Boy you sure like to play the victim card alot, don't you?

Waaaahhh he is criticizing jews, waaaaahhhh hes very hostile to me!

I really think it's about time you spread your wings and fly, kid. If you consider a couple criticisms here and there as hostility, I'd hate to see you get out in the real world. Do you also call mommy when you make a boo-boo?

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-18-2007, 01:11 PM
Either the average Sephardic Jew is retarded or Ashkenazim aren't as smart as the myth says. Trust me, there isn't a significant Arab population that you can thank for that.

Yea, I trust that in your opinion 1/6 people is not a significant number :rolleyes:


Read above.

Even if Israel had 0 Arabs there are still flaws in your conclusion. Do I really have to explain how?


Wow you must be very wimpish if you consider this thread hostile. Boy you sure like to play the victim card alot, don't you?

Waaaahhh he is criticizing jews, waaaaahhhh hes very hostile to me!

I never said to me. This thread would not be hostile coming from some objective person who simply had a problem with this. But yes, considering its coming from Hitler Jr, the motive is obvious and his overall attitude towards Jews is hostility.

Big Hype
12-18-2007, 01:18 PM
Yea, I trust that in your opinion 1/6 people is not a significant number :rolleyes:


Oh I see. Must be the Arabs again.

Aren't there more Sephardim in Israel than Arabs, anyway? You would need to explain why, with the Ashkenazim IQ soooo high, is Israel's overall so low.


Even if Israel had 0 Arabs there are still flaws in your conclusion. Do I really have to explain how?

There can be two possibilities: Sephardics are hopelessly retarded or Ashkenazim are just liars and not as smart as they claim to be.


I never said to me. This thread would not be hostile coming from some objective person who simply had a problem with this. But yes, considering its coming from Hitler Jr, the motive is obvious and his overall attitude towards Jews is hostility.

What hostility? The fact that he, like I, and many of us can see a double standard is not hostility in any shape or form. You just think that Jews are above criticism so you consider any to be nothing but hate. But if that helps you sleep at night it's OK. Usually people lose the persecution complex when they become adults, but I guess living at home still messes with your mind.

ll ReNeGaDe ll
12-18-2007, 01:27 PM
Oh I see. Must be the Arabs again.

Aren't there more Sephardim in Israel than Arabs, anyway? You would need to explain why, with the Ashkenazim IQ soooo high, is Israel's overall so low.



There can be two possibilities: Sephardics are hopelessly retarded or Ashkenazim are just liars and not as smart as they claim to be.

LOL. You talk about me being an undergrad yet you can't spot the obvious confounding variables here? I thought you were an educated man. This is rookie stuff here. But since you insist on having me explain it to you, the obvious answer is that environment you grew up with as a child, has a huge impact on IQ.

IQs are skewed by socio-economic status. Whether one were malnourished as a child, the quality of one's education, whether one perceives the test as a threat, and how much experience one has of similar tests ALL affect IQ.

As far as "innate intelligence" - intelligence researchers still have no idea what that means.



What hostility? The fact that he, like I, and many of us can see a double standard is not hostility in any shape or form.

When its not actually a double standard but still try to make it one in order to complain about a group of people - it is hostility.


You just think that Jews are above criticism so you consider any to be nothing but hate.

Actually I think all groups (as a whole) are above criticism. Generalization is a sign of faulty logic. Usually, the only thing that can screw up your logic like that is emotion (i.e hostility).

1devil
12-18-2007, 01:32 PM
Let's try to make this very simple.

Menorah = Jewish symbol
hanukkah = Jewish religion
Menorah, Hanukkah, & Jews are all related

Christmas tree = pagan symbol (that right there should end any debate on this subject)
Christmas = Christian religion

Christmas tree is not related to Christianity other than being put up on their religious holiday.

A christmas tree is not a Christian symbol.

It matters little what the origins of the Christmas tree are. The tree has currently come to be a major symbol of Christmas (a Christian holiday) in this country. That's why they call it a CHRISTMAS TREE. No one says: hey look at the beautiful pagan inspired tree in front of the white house.

The swastika is an ancient Indian symbol which the Nazi's decided to use. It's origins mean little, and does not take away from the fact that it is now viewed as a universal symbol of hate.

The cross also has origins that predate Christianity. Does that mean it should no longer be viewed as a symbol representing those of the Christian faith?

J-Bol
12-18-2007, 09:01 PM
It matters little what the origins of the Christmas tree are. The tree has currently come to be a major symbol of Christmas (a Christian holiday) in this country. That's why they call it a CHRISTMAS TREE. No one says: hey look at the beautiful pagan inspired tree in front of the white house.

The swastika is an ancient Indian symbol which the Nazi's decided to use. It's origins mean little, and does not take away from the fact that it is now viewed as a universal symbol of hate.

The cross also has origins that predate Christianity. Does that mean it should no longer be viewed as a symbol representing those of the Christian faith?

Almost everyone I know, Christian or not, puts up a tree.

No one I know puts up a menorah.

It's simply nothing more than decoration that signifies a holiday.

1devil
12-18-2007, 09:21 PM
Almost everyone I know, Christian or not, puts up a tree.

No one I know puts up a menorah.

It's simply nothing more than decoration that signifies a holiday.

There you have it. The tree is obviously more important than the menorah, otherwise more people would put them up.

By the way, way to avoid every point I made in my previous post, and respond with.........nothing.

J-Bol
12-18-2007, 09:30 PM
There you have it. The tree is obviously more important than the menorah, otherwise more people would put them up.

By the way, way to avoid every point I made in my previous post, and respond with.........nothing.

I did have a reply to your "points" that didn't exist, but deleted it b/c there's nothing to say about it.

Cross - Jesus died on it
Swastika - Adopted by Nazis who committed holocaust
Christmas tree - ???? Sorry, no big story to go along with that one

I'm guessing the heart is now a symbol of Catholicism b/c of St. Valentine? The Christmas tree was not adopted by Christians like the crucifix or how the Swastika was adopted by Nazis.

I know nothing I say will change your views, but at least know that the "menorah is to the Jews" is not like the "Christmas tree to the Christians". And if you actually knew that last part, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. :)

It is not a religious symbol. Only put up on a religious holiday that is now no more religious than it is secular.