The minds of rapists

[Sweetness]

I read this on another forum. I thought it was good info and important to re-post here.

-Sweetness

"I have an acquaintance whose good friend who was raped. If you don't already utilize these warning signs in your Women's self defense classes, maybe there will be an item or two that you can utilize.

As scary as it may seem we all need to be aware of these things.

Subject: Safety for women

THROUGH A RAPIST'S EYES


The headlines in the news media today are centered around the abductions and murders that have been going on in the US.

A group of rapists and date rapists in prison were interviewed on what they look for in a potential victim and here are some interesting
facts:

1) The first thing men look for in a potential victim is hairstyle. The are most likely to go after a woman with a ponytail, bun, braid or other hairstyle that can easily be grabbed. They are also likely to go after a woman with long hair. Women with short hair are not common targets.

2) The second thing men look for is clothing. They will look for women who's clothing is easy to remove quickly. Many of them carry scissors around to cut clothing.

3) They also look for women on their cell phone, searching through their purse or doing other activities while walking because they are off
guard and can be easily overpowered.

4) The time of day men are most likely to attack and rape a woman is in the early morning, between 5AM and 8:30AM.

5) The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store parking lots. Number two is office parking lots/garages.
Number three is public restrooms.

6) These men are looking to grab a woman and quickly move her to a second location where they don't have to worry about getting caught.

7) Only 2% said they carried weapons because a rape conviction carries a 3-5 year sentence; but, a conviction of rape with a weapon is
15-20 years.

8) If you put up any kind of a fight at all, they get discouraged. It only takes a minute or two for them to realize that going after you isn't
worth it, because it will be time-consuming.

9) These men said they would not pick on women who have umbrellas, or other similar objects that can be used from a distance, in their hands.
Keys are not a deterrent because you have to get really close to the attacker to use them as a weapon. So, the idea is to convince these
guys you're not worth it.

10) Several defense mechanisms are: If someone is following behind you on a street or in a garage or with you in an elevator or stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a question, like "What time is it?", or make small talk, like "I can't believe it is so cold out here" or "We're in for a bad winter." Now you've seen their face and could identify them in a
line-up, you lose appeal as a target.

11) If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you and yell "Stop" or "Stay back!" Most of the rapists said they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be afraid to fight back. Again, they are looking for an EASY target.

12) If you carry pepper spray (this instructor was a huge advocate of it and carries it with him wherever he goes,) yell "I HAVE PEPPER
SPRAY!" & hold the spray out. This will be a deterrent.

13) If someone grabs you, you can't beat them with strength but you can by outsmarting them: If you are grabbed around the waist from behind,
pinch the attacker either under the arm between the elbow and armpit or in the upper inner high - HARD. One woman in a class this guy taught told
him she used the underarm pinch on a guy who was trying to date rape her and was so upset she broke through the skin and tore out muscle strands - the guy needed stitches. Try pinching yourself in those places as hard as you can stand it; it hurts. After the initial hit, always go for the groin. You might think that you'll anger the guy and make him want to hurt you more,
but the thing these rapists told this instructor is that they want a woman who will not cause a lot of trouble. Start causing trouble, and he's out of there.

When the guy puts his hands up to you, grab his first two fingers and bend them back as far as possible with as much pressure pushing down on them as possible. The instructor did it to me without using much pressure, and I ended up on my knees and both knuckles cracked audibly.

14) Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your surroundings, take someone with you if you can. If you see any odd
behavior, don't dismiss it, go with your instincts. You may feel a little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was trouble.

PLEASE READ THEN FORWARD THIS TO ANY WOMAN YOU CARE ABOUT; IT'S SIMPLE STUFF THAT COULD SAVE HER LIFE OR UTILIZE SOMETHING THAT YOU LEARNED THAT YOU PREVIOUSLY DID NOT KNOW.

Yours in Taekwon Do,

Jack Martin, A-3-560
ITF/YOMCHI"

[Sweetness]

One of the comments to the original post which I thought brought up important topics aswell.

"Sir -

You make a very good point - prevention is the KEY! Shortly after I was promoted to I Dan, I was out in downtown Denver at The Comedy Works with a group of friends. The show let out about 1:00 am, and we left in a group to get to our cars. The shortest route back to where we parked was through an alley, and one of my friends suggested we cut through - after all, she said, Karen is a black belt, she can protect us! At which point I said something like "What am I, stupid? I'm going down the street, where the lights are." Many articles on rape prevention point out clearly that the women who are most at risk are those who are least aware of their surroundings, of who do not take sufficient precautions. I was taught by my instructor that the first rule of self-defense is not to get into situations that require it - the above story being an example of avoidance as a means of self-defense.

In addition to the tips you've listed, here are some others that were presented at an in-service on the subject at the middle school where I teach - they came from a college inservice, so replace the word 'campus' with 'neighborhood' wherever appropriate:

Never walk alone on campus after dark.
When going to a party or a bar, always use the "buddy system".
Use the Campus escort service.
Always wait for your escort to arrive before leaving.
Do not take poorly lit paths.
Know the location of all campus security phones.
Keep your doors and windows locked.
Do not open your door until you know who is there.
Discuss your schedule with a few close friends.
Carry a cell phone.
Trust your instincts.
And always, ...always... be aware of your surroundings. Ask yourself: Are your friends still around? Who else is in the apartment / house / residence hall?

The other thing to remember is that most women have some type of warning - stranger rape, they told us, is the rarest kind, and the easiest to avoid. The majority of rapes are committed by someone who knows the woman he is raping, however peripherally - it may be a friend of a friend, but is most often someone the woman knows in some fashion. Of course you should trust people you know well, but the trainers were very specific that women cannot stop being aware just because they've been introduced to someone through a friend.

Thanks for reminding me of this topic.

Karen Cohn A-3-873 "

[MsFit]

Thanks for the information. ;) My addition: Never trust anyone.
MsFit

[D&G]

Thats good information!

I hate the worry that anything could happen to girlfriend, sister, friend or heck even a total stranger. I'm sure the information there is useful to a lot of people - especially stuff about carrying an umbrella (which is hardly out of the ordinary in England).

Msfit you can trust some people - I wouldn't do anything worse than stare at your bum :D

[ctgblue]

As someone who used to teach self defense to mall employees at Christmas time I have another message to add.
MANY women (don't remember the exact % but is was frighteningly high) will be hurt after they escape because they GO BACK TO SEE IF THE GUY IS OK!
I know it sounds silly but the number was so high it is cause for concern.
IF you are attacked, heaven forbid, and you are able to get away, MAKE AS MUCH NOISE AS POSSIBLE and keep moving AWAY from the attacker towards safety.
Have someone call the authorities and wait for them to arrive before going back out.
NEVER hesitate to cause permanent disfiguring injuries.
This guy is gonna take something from you that will never go away, do not hesitate to do the same. Broken nose, key to the eye, fingernail in the eye, ripped up cheek, these are nice descriptions to give the authorities as, chances are, there are probably very few guys walking around the area with blood running from gashes in their face. Should be easy to spot.
Remember the rules
Avoid the situation first through awareness
Show strength and determination
If all else fails
HIT HARD, HIT FAST, RUN LIKE HELL, DON'T LOOK BACK.

I hope you never need to use this, but I hope you remember it.

[TrishB]

Sweetness and Ctg....

Good info! Something all woman need to be aware of.
I was almost a victim because I put myself into an unsafe situation. I did just as Ctg noted:
I hit hard, hit fast, ran like hell, and did not look back until I was in a safe place. By the grace of God, a lot of luck, and a strength I never knew I had, I was able to excape.

Stay safe ...
Trish

[Abs]

i read in this in an english girls mag (my sisters) and apparantley most of that is crap! they said if sum1 came up behind u, u wouldnt have a chance to hit him wiv ur umbrella or get ur pepper spray out!

u dont know what type of rapists they were interviewing, u get sum that just want sex and are a bit simple, but sum are probably potential murderers! so a wack wiv an umbrella aint gonna hurt him much!

also if u did try and struggle and think this is going to put him of and make him leave then ur wrong its most likely going to annoy him and make him wanna stab u!

main thing to remember is dont go out at night on ur own!

[Southrnrebel]

It used to be that they advised that if you are attacked by a rapist to just let him follow through, thus to prevent injury to yourself.

But, how do you know that this crazed maniac is even going to let you go...

We had a gal around this area get raped and cut into pieces...

Always be aware of whats going on around you!

[RedHedd]

Okay, the cop is going to speak up.

FBI statistics have shown that you have more chance of surviving and escaping an attack if you fight back to your utmost. Even if you don't manage to escape the assault, do everything you can to mark your attacker--bite, scratch, kick punch, gouge... You ARE worth defending, so do it. And, on the morbid side, if you are raped or killed, you want to have your attackers DNA on you--under your fingernails, in your teeth, hair in your hands, etc...

I am a -huge- advocate of martial arts. I personally think that EVERY woman should take martial arts--and keep taking it. One piddling little self-defense class is not going to give you the instinctive reactions that are needed to effectively defend yourself. You need a few -years- of practice. Sure, it takes time, but aren't you worth it? I personally have a black belt in Hapkido and have also studied jujitsu. And though I feel that the martial arts that emphasize grappling are better suited for women's self-defense, -any- martial art or fighting style will be a benefit.

Moreover, martial arts training will change the way you carry yourself. The "random" rapist is not going to target someone who carries herself with authority and pays attention to her surroundings.

But for those who have not taken martial arts, or who have only been taking for a short while, my best advice is to be aware, use common sense, and fight as hard and as mean and as dirty as you possibly can if the need arises.

And one more thing, whatever you do, DON'T GET IN THE CAR! If an attacker tried to force you into a car, fight for all it's worth. Again, FBI statistics have shown that once a woman is in the car--either her attacker's or her own--her chance or surviving the encounter drops to near zero. This is the attacker's chance to get you to a secluded area where he can take his time and do what he wants. I don't care if he has a gun on you--fight, scream, kick, do whatever it takes. Even if he shoots you right there, your chance of surviving is higher than if you get in that car.

[Sweetness]

Exactly. Rape is not about sex, its about power. If you fight back then you are no longer an easy victim, and he is no longer "in control". If he is going to kill you then he is going to kill you, no matter what you do, the only way you even have a chance is to fight back. It is HIGHLY unlikely that he went in with the intention of letting you live and that by fighting back you drive him to kill you. That doesnt make sense at all. He already had murder in his mind or he didnt, either way.....you have nothing to lose.

[aprildawn]

I think this is sticky material. Thanks for the info everyone.

[Smokinghawk]

Sorry, but I gotta disagree. It is NOT good information.

No such research or studies exist whatsoever. Assertions like, "The first thing he looks for is your hairstyle" is an unsubstantiated statement with nothing to back it at all. The anonymous author of this oft-forwarded "you gotta read this!" piece simply wrote what they think is true off the top of his/her head, without the slightest attention to actual sociological or psychological research (and there is plenty!) into rapist behavior and mentality.

It should be obvious that it's a complete rape myth because it proposes that these men are selecting victims from among strangers. So from the very first supposition, they've already offended ALL the research that shows: 1). 80% of rapists are acquaintances, known by their victims for one year or more on average--not strangers; 2) there IS no "victim type" that can be identified; rape victims are found among all races, appearances, body styles, ages (range from 6 months to 102 years), intellectual levels, income levels, degrees of resistance, etc.; 3) rapes are actually more common during daylight hours than durnig the nighttimes this author has suggested; 4) The number one location for a rape is in her own house (followed by: at his house, and third, in a car belonging to either); 5) resistance does not discourage a rapist, and in 35% of cases has made the attacks MORE violent against her (it is therefore irresponsible to suggest to a woman that her best option is to resist until he is frustrated")...Should I go on?

Please be very careful. Not everything someone anonymous internet author writes about rape will make it true, and some of this misinformation is downright dangerous.

[Sweetness]

1) Read the whole thread.
2)No one claimed otherwise
3)Read again.
4)No one said otherwise
5)Go ask ANY cop. Your statement is extremely exaggerated. What would you suggest?? Lets say its your mother, are you for real going to tell her just to lay there, take it, and hope he has no murderous intentions??

The bottom line is if you fight back you have a chance, even if the odds seem small, a chance exists. If you dont fight back then you have zero chance. Its up to you.

[Smokinghawk]

Originally posted by Sweetness
1) Read the whole thread.
2)No one claimed otherwise
3)Read again.
4)No one said otherwise
5)Go ask ANY cop. Your statement is extremely exaggerated. What would you suggest?? Lets say its your mother, are you for real going to tell her just to lay there, take it, and hope he has no murderous intentions??

The bottom line is if you fight back you have a chance, even if the odds seem small, a chance exists. If you dont fight back then you have zero chance. Its up to you.

Sorry, I DID read the thread. And I train cops about sexual assault. Want a list of written references I've actually read that substantiate the claims I made? I didn't exaggerate a thing. That anonymous email forward exaggerated and flat-out made up just about everything it claims as a fact.

You can challenge me all you want, but that common internet forward message is a farce of misinformation, not one single part of which has roots in actual research or policework.

[K (same)]

If you read the first article as you said you did, you would have recognized the sources of the info : "A group of rapists and date rapists in prison were interviewed on what they look for in a potential victim " Yet, you still mouthed off "that common internet forward message is a farce of misinformation, not one single part of which has roots in actual research or policework."

Resistance is NOT futile. Especially , trained resistance.

[ctgblue]

My sentiments exactly, I've trained ladies in basic survival self defense that has helped two of them free themselves from situations.
Our resident cop Redhedd, understands the situation and agrees with most of the information given.

Do not give up, try to free yourself at all costss BECAUSE, too many sickos today willl just kill the victim if they get her alone and into an isolated area.

[Sweetness]

Originally posted by Smokinghawk


Sorry, I DID read the thread. And I train cops about sexual assault. Want a list of written references I've actually read that substantiate the claims I made? I didn't exaggerate a thing. That anonymous email forward exaggerated and flat-out made up just about everything it claims as a fact.

You can challenge me all you want, but that common internet forward message is a farce of misinformation, not one single part of which has roots in actual research or policework.

How is a signed letter anon? Proof you didnt reat it. I know the people who made the original posts thank you. And as you can see.... your not the only one with self defence training. Im not going to start bragging about my experience because its completely unnessiasary and does not contribute to this disscussion.

[Smokinghawk]

Originally posted by K (same)
If you read the first article as you said you did, you would have recognized the sources of the info : "A group of rapists and date rapists in prison were interviewed on what they look for in a potential victim " Yet, you still mouthed off "that common internet forward message is a farce of misinformation, not one single part of which has roots in actual research or policework."

Resistance is NOT futile. Especially , trained resistance.


I offered to provide a fact list of documented sources. Is this about ME, or about the facts on rape? Let me know before I address those challenges.

In the meantime, I reiterate: no such survey of prison rapists exists. The few studies that have been done on prison rapists (and yes, I actually have them--ALL of them), in fact, found results contrary to the assertions of this message: that the rapists most often did NOT have a "type," and that they selected their victims on the basis of perceived power and control, not on physical appearance or situational context. That's why I want to reiterate, also, that 80% of rapists are acquaintances, not predators lying in wait for a woman fumbling with keys.

You don't seem to have read my post about resistance, either, because you asked me for my materials on what self-defense methods I'd suggest. Had you read my comments, you would have seen that I neither advocate nor condemn acts of resistance, but I do strongly urge an understanding that resistance increased the violence against the victim in 35% of all cases, and that victim behavior during the assault is usually governed by instincts of freezing, flight, OR fighting--and because they are instincts, she does not consciously decide on these options.

Therefore, it's just about impossible to give anyone advice on what to do *during* an assault because the victim's trauma initiates her instinct reactions, not her conscious decision-making abilities. As soon as we give advice on what we think she should do, or should have done, we risk imposing guilt or shame on her is if her instincts inspired a wholly different set of behaviors.

To close: I've offered to provide sources and facts for my claims (would it even help?). This internet forward offers none. Why is anyone so easily convinced that something they read in a common email forward is absolutely correct without the slightest bit of research? Would anyone even be willing to contact the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence and Sexual Assault for their authoritative input on an email message like this? Since when did people simply assume that email forwards are accurate, and will defend passionately what is impossible to verify? I thought people were more clever and skeptical than that.

I believe it's because messages like this play into our collective mythology about what rape is, and we're accustomed to envisioning rape as an attack by an unknown man against a woman at night in a parking lot or ally. When faced with findings that most rapes are in the daytime, done by people she's known a year or more (on average), to women of all types without regard to her appearance/age/location, and that common beliefs about physical violence as self-defense may in fact be counterindicative to her safety, it so directly conflicts with our collective beliefs about rape that we battle the research (no matter how well-documented) to defend the cultural legends about rape (despite an utter lack of any research of verification whatsoever, simply because the legends are closer to our own beliefs).

[Sweetness]

Originally posted by Smokinghawk




I believe it's because messages like this play into our collective mythology about what rape is, and we're accustomed to envisioning rape as an attack by an unknown man against a woman at night in a parking lot or ally. When faced with findings that most rapes are in the daytime, done by people she's known a year or more (on average), to women of all types without regard to her appearance/age/location, and that common beliefs about physical violence as self-defense may in fact be counterindicative to her safety, it so directly conflicts with our collective beliefs about rape that we battle the research (no matter how well-documented) to defend the cultural legends about rape (despite an utter lack of any research of verification whatsoever, simply because the legends are closer to our own beliefs).

More proof that you never read the whole thread as THIS WAS MENTIONED. In fact I beleive it was mentioned in the 2nd post by Karen Cohn which is WHY I POSTED IT. And what about the other 20%.....do you ignore the issue and hope it goes away??

You have absolutley no idea as to where Mr. Martin got his information so dont even pretend you know what your talking about.

Thank you for your superior suggestion of "dont say anything because no one will remember" .....How do you know no one will think to fight back when they usually freeze? People freeze because they dont know what to do, maybe reading this will help who knows. The suggestion isnt harmful.

...and finally I dont see an offer anywhere.....where is that offer??? Obviously if you feel you have something to contribute ...then.... ..this is supposed to be a HELPFUL thread...

[K (same)]

Originally posted by Smokinghawk
......Therefore, it's just about impossible to give anyone advice on what to do *during* an assault because the victim's trauma initiates her instinct reactions, not her conscious decision-making abilities. As soon as we give advice on what we think she should do, or should have done, we risk imposing guilt or shame on her is if her instincts inspired a wholly different set of behaviors.....

Self-defence=training, which overcomes negative instinctive responses ----> be prepared to avoid getting into a bad situation, AND if needs be, ACT to overcome the situation.


"....FBI statistics have shown that you have more chance of surviving and escaping an attack if you fight back to your utmost...." RedHedd's post.

[Smokinghawk]

Originally posted by Sweetness


More proof that you never read the whole thread as THIS WAS MENTIONED. In fact I beleive it was mentioned in the 2nd post by Karen Cohn which is WHY I POSTED IT. And what about the other 20%.....do you ignore the issue and hope it goes away??

You have absolutley no idea as to where Mr. Martin got his information so dont even pretend you know what your talking about.

Thank you for your superior suggestion of "dont say anything because no one will remember" .....How do you know no one will think to fight back when they usually freeze? People freeze because they dont know what to do, maybe reading this will help who knows. The suggestion isnt harmful.

...and finally I dont see an offer anywhere.....where is that offer??? Obviously if you feel you have something to contribute ...then.... ..this is supposed to be a HELPFUL thread...

Um, Sweetness? you don't remember me making that offer? Funny, because you QUOTED where I wrote it in your reply to me earlier. Who doesn't read these messages? To re-quote myself: "Want a list of written references I've actually read that substantiate the claims I made?"

You're right, though, I have no idea where this information came from. I am simply disputing its accuracy.

To answer another question: no, we *don't* know whether people will remember certain advice or not during an assault. Some will, some won't. The problem is that we cannot know beforehand whether certain advice will be helpful or more injurious to her in the actual situation. Just remembering advice to "fight back!" might not be what's needed to help, if it intensifies the attacker's violence against her as a result.

But my point wasn't to say "don't fight," so I hope that's not what someone interprets me as saying. It was this: first, victims may not be able to take any advice during the assault, because trauma causes instincts, not rational, learned decision-making skills, to take over. And if that happens, advice on what she should so (or should have done) can make her feel worse by causing her to feel like a failure for not doing it that way. Defense lawyers misuse this fact all the time, especially in the case of the "freeze" instinct: "you mean you just laid there? You didn't scream? No kicking or fighting? You just got tense and froze? Miss X, how is my client supposed to be guilty of an assault when you did nothing to resist?" They skew the instinct into something that blames her.

And juries fall for it: they expect that she'd fight back. If she didn't, they often mis-assume that it wasn't, therefore, a "real rape," and they don't see a "victim" sitting there, they see a woman who had a bad sexual experience and did the wrong thing to respond. People often define rapes by how violent they are, but the free or flight instincts can happen in rapes that are not, therefore, violent in a phsycially-aggressive way at all (as in the case of drug-facilitated rape). When people expect to see fighting resistance and they don't, they assume she handled herself wrong. And victims often feel that way about themselves: "Why didn't I fight? Couldn't I/shouldn't I have done such-and-such instead of just freezing up?"

Violence is one of 7-8 legal definitions of rape, and rape is not defined by the presence of violence, so the instincts to freeze or flee are perfectly valid, and nothing to be ashamed of, or scold, or teach alternatives to. In fact, they may be life-saving behaviors.

Fighting can be life-saving too, so don't think that I'm "downing" that option, I'm just cautioning that it can make her attack worse, not better. Yet I realize that the 35% number I cited is less than half, so I'm only giving a caution, not making a whole case against resistance. I fully support self-defense classes, AS LONG AS we remind ourselves that not all rapes permit the self-defense option. And that's fine if she cannot.

Conuselors working with rape trauma survivors often face precisely that issue: self-blame by the victim for not having fought back, or the freeze instinct. They hear so often about fighting back that they assume it's the only reasonable option, and feel like they failed if they weren't able to, or if they tried it and got scared when the rapist became more vicious (rapsists are not all one type, either: there are power rapists, anger rapists, and acquaintance rapists. Anger rapists are the kind most likely to ghive up a resistant victim, but are also the rarest; power rapists are the most common and will match and exceed her resistance with MORE violence in order to maintain power. These are the rapists who are most dangerous to her when she fights them).


But let's go back to the original post. My part in all this came when I disagreed that rapists have a "typing" pattern based on hair color, clothing, situational context, behavior, etc. I stated that no such prison interviews resulting in any published study exists, and I stand by that statement. Furthermore, I reiterate that the author of such message misunderstands the dymanics of rapist psychology, because real-life rape findings do not substantiate his/her portrayal of rapist behavior.

MODS: please don't close this thread. I'm intent on keeping it informative and debatable, without it becoming acidic. I think those who disagree with me are able to do the same, and this can be a great thread.

[K (same)]

Women should learn self-defence. Self-defence is effective. Resistance works. THAT IS THE SOLUTION. All the data and statistics prove that.

[Southrnrebel]

Originally posted by K (same)
Women should learn self-defence. Self-defence is effective. Resistance works. THAT IS THE SOLUTION. All the data and statistics prove that.

I totally agree!

Protect yourself like your life depends on it...because it may!

[Sweetness]

Originally posted by Smokinghawk


Um, Sweetness? you don't remember me making that offer? Funny, because you QUOTED where I wrote it in your reply to me earlier. Who doesn't read these messages? To re-quote myself: "Want a list of written references I've actually read that substantiate the claims I made?"



LOL. THAT was your offer??!! Sorry I guess Im just didnt recognize it through the attitude. A quick tip: If you want people to take your words literally then you should prob stop being so aggressive. I seriously thought you were just lipping off.

I understand and agree with what you are saying about the psycology of a victim, and the guilt. It is very important to mention for sure. I just think there are better ways of adding an opinion then trashing an entire thread.

Yes Im sure that many men will retaliate to a sign of resistance, but Im not talking about slight struggling, these women need to fight for their lives with everything they have. I personally would rather be physically abused then sexually abused, but that is just me. Go ahead and break my nose, bust my teeth, but if the possibility exists that I can make it not worthwhile for you, or even escape, then I will do anything to retain what dignity is left.

As for the rest, I hold no opinion, I was just a messenger and have not actually seen this study with my own eyes. I have contacted Mr. Martin however and asked where it came from.

Peace.

[RedHedd]

Yikes, I leave town for the weekend and the thread explodes in my absence. Wow.

My $0.02: I know there are a wide variety of views and "studies" on what is best for women faced with a potential attacker. I do have to agree with Smoking re the "typing" of rape victims. It's true that most rapes ar committed by someone the victim knows and are -not- random "parking lot" attacks. I also point out that if fighting back made it worse 35% of the time, that means that 65% of the time it -didn't-... hence either the same or better.

As I said before, one self-defense class is not going to do anything for a woman as far as making her more able to defend herself. Instinctive reactions can be trained, but it takes time, practice, and a great deal of repetition. I'm talking years here. But don't get discouraged at the thought of it taking years of training, instead get started! Those years will fly by. [grin]

As far as being able to support my views with the actual studies, that may take a while for me to dig up--however, I've heard that information given during various trainings offered by several different agencies so I'm inclined to take it on a fair amount of faith. Not to mention my own experiences in dealing with rape cases.

[Hibiscus09]

I think how one reacts depends on the situation and you never really know how you'll react until you're in the situation. This isn't to say that I don't think martial arts classes, self defense classes, etc. won't help. I'm all for them! I have a very close relative who was raped. It was a random attack, happened early in the a.m. (around 5:30) while she was on her way to work in a downtown area. She's a pretty tough cookie, but didn't fight back because the guy came up from behind her quickly and put a knife to her throat. Finally, for what it's worth, she has very short dark hair and is kind of tomboyish looking.

She never discussed whether it bothered her or not that she didn't fight back. She did, however, become a police officer and is two years away from retirement as one. I've always wondered if what happened to her caused her to choose this profession -- kind of a way of doing something about it.

Anyway, as far as not getting in a car is concerned, I've always told my husband that I hope I would have the right reaction & just run like hell. I'd rather be shot at (they could miss) than get in a vehicle with someone trying to abduct me.

I did have a very creepy man follow me one time & I was surprised at my reaction. He was following me around campus at the University and the third time he showed up out of nowhere, I just glared at him. I felt like I was going to beat the hell out of him. I guess that's a good sign. :)

[Smokinghawk]

I appreciate this thread, I really do. I wish the discussion were in a different tone, because I don't think disagreeing about information should be seen as a personal attack. I am challenging the rightness and wrongness of certain claims made by anonymous authors in a much-forwarded internet essay, but at no point do I see that as requiring any bruised feelings from anyone here, which is why the "put a sock in it!"-type responses genuinely mystify me, and I've haven't used similar hostility to tear anyone else down (my offer to Sweetness was indeed genuine, not lippy, and I did not intend it to appear like an abrupt mouth-off)

I've never seen anonymous internet claims accepted so unskeptically, and I was hoping to simply address the data, not to be perceived as swiping at anyone here personally.

I maintain that this is a well-known internet hoax. No such results or insights have ever been concluded from interviews with rapists, and in fact, research interviews that HAVE been done lead to research conclusions are precisely the opposite of the claims made by this article. Those are verifiable. See:

Groth, A. Nicholas. "Men who Rape: The psychology of the offender." Plenum Press, NY (Especially Chapter 2, "Psychodynamics of Rape", and Chapter 1 part 4, "Myths about the offender").

Campbell: Jacquelyn C. "Assessing Dangerousness: Violence by sexual offenders, batterers, and child abusers." CA: Sage publications.

National Research Council: "Understanding violence against women." (Especially chapter 4, on interviews with offenders).

National Research Council: "Understanding and prevenyting violence: Consequences and control." (Especially pages 167-217, "Predicting violent behavior and classifying vio;lent offenders" by Jan Chaiken, et. al.).

(more sources available)

My opinion--which is not verifiable, only subjective--is that the author of this piece (it's been around for years, and rape crisis centers consider it a burr of unending myth-perpetuation to them) simply wrote what they thought sounded accurate, based on social mythologies about rape and rapists. I can't prove that, but how else does someone write a piece so precisely contrary to actual research, yet so parallel with mainstream rape mythology?

But you know what? It's more important that we not have battling opponents on this forum than that I keep debating a topic like this. While the discussion would be fascinating, it is clearly more emotional than rational and I wouldn't want persistance by any of us to cause undo tension between board participants, who could otherwise be allies.

So I stand by my offer, and will provide any research materials that someone might want to ask me about,* but perhaps we should all volunteerily agree by common consent to prevent acrimony.

*I'm mentioning this so nobody will think I'm just backing out without delivering "the goods" or accuse me of not having the research after all. Anyone who wants it can have it, but it's important that people realize this is a genuine peace treaty gesture, not a cop-out.

[K (same)]

While we are on the subject, let me state this from my own experience. (Note: I don't pretend to be a law enforcement officer, nor do I pretend to be martial art blackbelt expert nor instructor. But I have my share of experience of having the wind knocked out of me by little scrawny bastards that I didn't pay attention to and caught me in a sucker punch.) self-defence does not require years of training. Yes, you would need years of training to excel in a martial art. In practical self-defence, the surprise factor is the key. I don't want people to be discouraged from learning self-defence after they read that it takes years. Practical self-defence techniques that may prevail in most cases (not all) can be learned and practiced to efficiency in short courses. In most assault cases (again, not all cases), a surprise but furious resistance is generally sufficient to discourage the assault and enable the prey to escape, may be with just minor injury.

[Smokinghawk]

You missed the point. I was fully prepared to discuss your strong disagreement with what I was saying--that doesn't mystify me at all.

What mystifies me is that people treat a disagreement with such exaggerated, impulsive PASSION that instead of simply addressing the content of the dispute, they use childish tactics like cursing at the PERSON (attacking your adversary when all you have a difference of opinion to offer), telling the PERSON with whom they disagree to simply shut up (trying to eliminate all contrary thought besides your own), etc.

Do we really have so little self-control, or so little confidence in our ability to defend an opinion, that we cannot do either one without acting below our full potential to imitate brats arguing in a middle school hallway? Do we really expect people to back off and respect our points if we begin them with a wirlwind of ranting, raving, cursing, shouting and insulting, instead of with reason and inquiry?

So even while I am in the process of making a gesture to improve the tone of this discussion, you cannot resist regressing right back to the same old temper tantrums because someone thinks differently than you. You never ask why, you never try to discuss it, you just throw up a wall of words and fume about it. It's rather scary that you are so aggressive that everyone must believe your way or face your wrath. What a Limbaugh-esque life of frustration that must be.

Despite the barrage, I've never returned similar language toward any of you, have I? But what a sucker I would have to be to keep sticking around trying to dialogue with someone so threatened and angered by differences of thought!

[the wind]

i am new to this forum/thread and i am saddend by the tone of this entire "conversation" . Rape is a disease that effects humanity as a whole, not just women, men as well. although the physcial violence is not shared the emotional tramua scars both sexes. the husbands of the wives, the brothers of the sisters, the fathers of the daughters and the children of the mothers.

it is through education BOTH in self defense as well as in theory and the determination as a whole to combat rape as people that can and will make a difference.

i do not condem any person's opinion/knowledge/feelings on this thread about this subject. as it is an extreamly personal topic, i only encourage everyone to remember rape is not only a cruel violation of a woman's right to personal safety and emotional well being but it is also a violation of the sanctity of our families & friends.

sorry, i do not mean to be "preachy" and i wish i had better words to describe how i feel.

[K (same)]

(Excerpted from "No Nonsense Self Defense")

How to spot a potential rapist or abuser. Key to prevent acquaintance rape: NOT to be alone with a high risk individual.

"...If you see these behaviors in a person, take care. The more you see, the more care should be taken not to be alone him. Even if he doesn’t rape, these behaviors indicate serious character flaws.

Danger signs

1) Insensitivity for others/emphasis on self - Does this person put his wants above the needs, feelings or well being of others? Is getting his way more important to him than other people's welfare? Often this can go beyond mere selfishness and border nearly on an "assumed divine right." Often these people will justify a particularly vicious action with a flip comment like, "Hey, that's how the game is played." Such a person has no understanding that he must co-exist with others. Because he simply exists he thinks the world "owes" him whatever he wants. A common tactic of such a person it to make you feel bad for not doing what he wants.

2) Belittling behavior or attitudes towards others - Does this person habitually make nasty, belittling or degrading comments about others – especially under the guise of joking? Does this person think he is better than others? Does he look down on others? A nouveau riche aristocrat? Is he a racist? A person who thinks that race or social position makes him superior can also assume gender does too. When you think you are superior, an assumed right to ‘take’ what you want often follows.

3) Negating behavior or comments - Closely related to 1 and 2. Does he try to tell you what you are feeling or thinking? Or worse, tell you what you are not? Comments like "you don’t really mean that" are serious indicators of someone trying to negate you. A person who negates others is trying to take away the other person’s thoughts, feelings and needs and attempting to project his wants onto that person. The most obvious example of this is "Well even though she said ‘no’, she really meant ‘yes’".

4) Hostile and/or threatening language - What words does a person use? Choice of words convey subconscious assumptions about a particular topic. For example a man who generically refers to women as "bitches" does not have good assumptions about females (or much respect). It is all too easy to dismiss this behavior as just "blowing off steam." But if it is a constant behavior, it goes far beyond that. Someone who habitually uses violent or threatening language should be carefully watched for possible escalation. It’s on his mind already. It’s a uncomfortably short step from ‘thinking about’ to ‘doing’.

5) Bullying - This behavior is especially dangerous. Does this person use overt or subtle threats to get his way? A bully uses the threat of violence more than actual violence. Most often bullies are not willing to risk conflict with someone who can hurt them (an alpha male), and will instead chose to intimidate someone he considers weaker and safer. Someone who is bullying over other matters can easily turn to bullying you regarding sex.

6) Excessive anger - How easy does this person anger? Is he a "Short Fuse"? Does he boil over at the slightest problem? This is an indication of chronic anger. A person who explodes over a minor issue is like a full pot boiling over on the stove. It’s not that the issue is all that important, but that he has so much anger already, any more causes him to explode. Often people with chronic anger look for targets to vent their anger at. This could manifest as physical fights, abuse, or rape.

7) Brooding/ revenge - Does this person hang onto his anger long after the situation is over? Will he still be stewing over something while everyone else has moved onto other things? Will he become anti-social and glare at the source of his anger from across the room? Will he insist on taking revenge for real or imagined slights? Both indicate a petty and obsessive personality. A brooder fixates on something and then works himself into a frenzy over it. A person who seeks revenge "has to win" and is willing to take it to extremes. Refusing such a person’s sexual advances can turn this tendency towards you.

8) Obsession – This is a close cousin to number seven. It is a major factor with acquaintance rapes. This is the person who won’t leave you alone. He insists on ‘hitting on you’ long after you have told him no. He is always trying establish forced intimacy (see ‘bonding process’ below). Such obsessions easily turn into anger when his advances are rejected. One day he shows up in a fringe area, drunk and attacks.

9) Extreme mood swings - Beware someone who can go from wildly happy to deeply wounded at a moment's notice. This sort of personality can feel justified to commit an unlimited amount of violence and damage, because you "hurt his feelings." This is a common pattern among those with chronic anger about life.

10) Physical tantrums - How does this person get angry? Especially when denied "getting his way". Beware of a person who regularly physically assaults his environment i.e. hitting walls, kicking things etc. It is only a short step from striking a car to attacking you.

11) Jock or gorilla mentality - This mentality promotes both acceptance and encouragement for the use of violence. It is especially common among participants of contact sports. What is most insidious about this mentality is the "jock" receives, not only positive reinforcement, but out-and-out applause for being aggressive and violent. This can easily lead to a failure to differentiate between the playing field and real life. Mike Tyson’s comment is a prime example: "Nobody ever objected before."

12) A mean drunk - Nearly all rape and abuse cases involve alcohol. Watch what surfaces when someone is intoxicated. It shows what is always lurking underneath. Do not put yourself into a situation where you would deal with such a person while he is intoxicated. Most importantly, don't allow your facilities to be diminished by alcohol or drugs in this person's presence.

13) Alcohol or drug abuse - To begin with drug and alcohol addiction can in be traced back to selfishness and a refusal to change one’s world view. Alcohol and drugs are not the cause of bad behavior, rather they are used as an excuse! Often the attacker intentionally became intoxicated to ignore the social restrictions and inhibitions regarding violence.

While there are others, these behaviors are serious indicators of a potential rapist. This short list should acquaint you with the basics. Not all men are rapists, but a person like this has a higher probability than others. You not only find these traits among rapists and abusers, but also professional criminals. Philosophically there is little difference between such, they are all selfish. Most often it is just a matter of degrees, style and choice of victims...."

[K (same)]

(Note:This information is adapted from a pamphlet published by the University of Illinois. )

Rape is a violent crime, an invasion, a frightening experience. Rape affects all women, no matter what their age, race or economic status. All women are potential victims of sexual assault.
By being aware, a woman can reduce the likelihood of becoming a rape victim. This does not mean all rapes can be prevented. Rapists commit rape -- NOT VICTIMS.

Psychological Preparedness
---------------------------
1. Accept the fact that you are a potential rape victim.
Many women operate under the illusion “it will
never happen to me.” It may.
2. Educate yourself concerning rape prevention
tactics.
3. Become familiar with community rape prevention
and counseling.
4. Become aware of locations and situations where
rape is more likely to occur and avoid them, or take
precautions.

In a Dating/Friend Situation
---------------------------
1. The majority of rapes that occur are termed "acquaintance rapes" - the rapist and victim know one another. Trust your feelings. If you become uncomfortable in a situation, assertively ask the person to leave. Don't worry about hurt feelings.

2. If possible, let a friend or roommate know who you are with and where you will be. Leave an address and phone number when possible.

In Your Car
-----------
1. Keep windows and doors locked.
2.If you should be followed into your driveway, stay in
your car with the doors locked. Sound horn to get
the attention of neighbors or scare the other driver off.
3.When parking at night, select a place that will be
well-lit when returning to the car.
4.Always make sure the car is locked, and have the
keys ready when returning to the car.
5.Check interior of car before getting in.

On the Street
-------------
1.Be observant of things around you. If someone is
following you, go to the nearest house or store.
2.Walk near the curb and avoid passing close to
shrubbery, dark doorways and other places of
concealment.
3.DO NOT HITCHHIKE.
4.Avoid short cuts through parking lots and alleys.
5.Walk with a friend if at all possible. Don't walk
alone.
6.If a car approaches you and you feel threatened,
scream and run in the direction opposite of the one
the car is going.
7.When arriving home by taxi or private auto, ask the
driver to wait until you are inside.
8.Don't jog in secluded areas.
9.Know the location of the campus emergency phones.

In Your Apartment
-------------
1.The best lock cannot function if you fail to lock it.
Be sure to keep your doors locked.
2. Never prop open an outside door.
3. Never open the door without knowing whose there. Either check through your peephole or ask the person to identify themselves.

[K (same)]

(Information courtesy of Alcohol-Related Injury and Violence (ARIV).)

73% of the assailants and 55% of the victims had used alcohol or other drugs prior to the assault

Increased drinking frequency and intensity are both associated with sexually aggressive behavior by white male college students.

In 29% of sexual assaults recorded by a medium-sized, middle Atlantic university, the victim could not have consented to the sexual activity because she was incapacitated by alcohol.

College binge drinkers are "2.3 times more likely than non-bingers to have experienced forced sexual touching and 2.7 times more likely to endure unwanted sexual intercourse."


(Information courtesy of the American Medical Association)

Sexual Assault is the fastest growing crime in the United States.

Fewer than 50% of rapes are reported.

Approximately 80% of assailants are known to the victims.

Approximately 5% of sexual assault victims are male.

At least 20% of adult women, 15% of college women and 12% of adolescent women have experienced some form of sexual abuse or assault during their lifetimes.

A survey of 6,159 college students enrolled at 32 institutions in the U.S. found:

54% of the women surveyed had been the victims of some form of sexual abuse; more than one in four college-aged women had been the victim of rape or attempted rape;

57% of the assaults occurred on dates;

25% of the men surveyed admitted some degree of sexually aggressive behavior;

42% of the victims told no one.

[the wind]

Thank you.

[Smokinghawk]

Originally posted by K (same)
(Excerpted from "No Nonsense Self Defense")
[b]
How to spot a potential rapist or abuser. Key to prevent acquaintance rape: NOT to be alone with a high risk individual.

"...If you see these behaviors in a person, take care. The more you see, the more care should be taken not to be alone him. Even if he doesn’t rape, these behaviors indicate serious character flaws.



I like this message (but I snipped it for space). It focuses on the actual behaviors or rapists, rather than on the traits of a victim, and it's accurate. Additionally, I would add that another warning sign might be the "honeymoon abuse cycle," wherein the person becomes abusive, then apolagetic and romantic to win back his victim and re-establish power and control. Another trait to watch for is called "grooming the victim," in which he tests a victim's resolve during acquaintance interaction by bumping into her (and waiting for HER to apologize), brushing a hand across her breast "by accident" (to see if she doubts herself too much to oppose or point out the infraction), and one who plies a victim with copious amounts of alcohol or drugs at a disporportionate amount to his own consumption (or with teens, supplying drugs or alcohol in *any* amount to ensure that she will not report the attack to police or parents for fear of their reaction to her own drinking/drug behavior prior to the assault).

Good post!

May I also suggest an excellent website?
http://wherestheoutrage.org (especially check the headlines and news articles on the right side)

[LadyTrex]

Personally I believe that anyone who attacks me or mine is gonna get my .38 in his face,,,

But ...even an old (49) lady like me can and will fight to protect herself..and I am NOT gonna worry about hurting an attacker... I am gonna TRY to hurt someone who is attacking me or another woman..

In my 20's I served in the Marines and we were taught some basic defense and I have added to that a bit since then...

Ladies.. fight back.. do not let a punk hurt you ... you are worth more than that..
Men ..teach your ladies ... to pay attention to whats around them and to believe in themselves. A confident woman isnt so easy to victimize..

[MiloMan]

Damn right, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com