Thoughts on Melting Point

[IronPimper]

I'm hoping some others with scientific knowledge of ppar upregulation will chime in, but I've been doing some thinking about melting point.

I've noticed that while the hype was overwhelming, results haven't been quite what consumers expected. Some people were particularly upset with the alpha testing by DS, and then others seemed to not respond well to the beta version. This got me thinking, why?

If I'm correct, ppar alpha and beta upregulation leads to an increase in fatty acid oxidation. This should, providing the product has an effect on ppar alpha and/or beta, burn considerably more fat.

However, my understanding is also that increased fatty acid oxidation isn't nearly as effective without a general increase in lipolysis, or the release of fatty acids into the blood stream. This increase in general the result of a low carb diet that depletes glycogen stores, increased cardiovascular activity, and alpha and beta receptor stimulation.

Many of the people who used or are using melting point did not/are not doing cardio or any significance, or following a low carb diet. Nor are they utilizing a alpha/beta receptor agonist like ephedrine, clen, etc. I imagine that the lack of these ancillaries is, at least in part, due to the huge hype surrounding melting point as an "uncoupler" and something that would increase metabolic rate by 25-30%.

I really feel that the true value of this product could be seen when used in conjunction with a low carb diet and regular medium intensity cardio. With release of a great deal of fatty acids into the blood stream, melting point would be free to drastically increase the fatty acid oxidation with a result being a drastic reduction in adipose tissue.

What do you think?

[Lok7y]

I think it's underdosed more than anything.


I mean, cardiovascular exercise certainly isn't needed to facilitate lipolysis (although it certainly does help).



Many of the people who used or are using melting point did not/are not doing cardio or any significance, or following a low carb diet. Nor are they utilizing a alpha/beta receptor agonist like ephedrine, clen, etc. I imagine that the lack of these ancillaries is, at least in part, due to the huge hype surrounding melting point as an "uncoupler" and something that would increase metabolic rate by 25-30%.

I have never seen anything indicating MP would raise overall RMR by anything above 10% at best.


I really feel that the true value of this product could be seen when used in conjunction with a low carb diet and regular medium intensity cardio. With release of a great deal of fatty acids into the blood stream, melting point would be free to drastically increase the fatty acid oxidation with a result being a drastic reduction in adipose tissue.

There are definitely people who have been doing cardio while reviewing Melting Point. Even many of them have not had all that good things to say. I will continue to do my usual sprint-work while on it, so I will definitely create some instances where significant FFAs are mobilized.

Only time will tell as far as I'm concerned.

[acecombact1]

[QUOTE=Lok7y]




I have never seen anything indicating MP would raise overall RMR by anything above 10% at best.



[QUOTE]

you know the active ingredient in MP?

[IronPimper]

you know the active ingredient in MP?

PA speculated that it is a fatty acid called medica-16

Peroxisome proliferators as adjuvants for the reverse-electron-transport therapy of obesity: an explanation for the large increase in metabolic rate of MEDICA 16-treated rats.

McCarty MF.

Nutrition 21/AMBI, San Diego, CA 92109, USA.

The efficacy of reverse-electron-transport therapy of obesity should be promoted by agents which up-regulate hepatocyte enzymes that are potentially rate-limiting for mitochondrial fatty acid oxidation and electron shuttles. Peroxisome proliferator drugs, including the fibrates used to treat hyperlipidemia, may be useful in this regard, as they induce malic enzyme, the mitochondrial glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase, and carnitine palmitoyl transferase I in rodent hepatocytes. An agent of this class, MEDICA 16, has the additional property of potently inhibiting both citrate lyase and acetyl-CoA carboxylase. As a result, methyl-substituted diacarboxylic acids (MEDICA) 16 can be expected to disinhibit hepatic fatty acid oxidation while up-regulating electron shuttle mechanisms, and thus should stimulate reverse electron transport. This may explain the remarkable 40% increase in basal metabolic rate observed in normal rats ingesting MEDICA 16--an effect not associated with any compensatory increase in food intake. Relative to controls, the MEDICA 16-treated rats achieved a 50% reduction in body fat and a modest increase in lean mass, such that weight and growth were not changed. In other rodent strains, MEDICA 16 has prevented obesity diabetes and atherogenesis. However, whether MEDICA 16 and other peroxisome proliferator drugs will have clinical utility in reverse-electron-transport therapy may hinge on their ability to induce key enzymes in human hepatocytes; cell culture studies to evaluate this are required.

[uhockey]

While Medica-16 does appear to be a decent product, it is not the primary active in Melting Point. To be perfectly honest, only time will tell whether MP will prove to be the spectacular fat burner that everyone hopes. Much like sesamin, the active is impressive on paper and in rats but has not seen huge mainstream human trials specifically in fat burning. As an overall "health and well-being" supplement, however, I must admit LipidAce is pretty impressive and has seen human trials that exhibit the kind of benefits suggested in Rob's writeup with regard to insulin sensitivity, cholesterol, anti-oxidant effects, and the immune system.

With all that said, like sesamin, I'm sure it will work for some and not work for others.......perhaps those of us who are more "rat-like" will receive more of it's fat burning effects. I do know, however, that like sesamin, it will be good FOR you regardless.

[DeathfromBelow]

I agree with Loki that the product is probably underdosed. Someone was on here talking about something called TDTA and how it doesn't work at doses less than 3 grams per day -- if that is the active ingredient then it makes sense.

The thing is, even really strong ppar-alpha activators (like fibrates used for treating high cholesterol) do not cause any significant weight loss and I don't know that anyone has done any real studies on the potential weight loss of ppar-delta agonists.

[Robboe]

Some people have stated they thought sesathin did nothing for them also, so i've been starting to think that some people simply respond to PPARa activators moreso than others. In the same way that i get nothing from ephedrine for fat loss (but it's great for stimulation and appetite supression) whereas others get great results. I also get nothing from clenbuterol, whereas others get amazing results.

[uhockey]

Some people have stated they thought sesathin did nothing for them also, so i've been starting to think that some people simply respond to PPARa activators moreso than others. In the same way that i get nothing from ephedrine for fat loss (but it's great for stimulation and appetite supression) whereas others get great results. I also get nothing from clenbuterol, whereas others get amazing results.

I'm tellin ya, simply more rat-like..........

[Robboe]

Are you insinuating that i am a rat, michael?

[uhockey]

Are you insinuating that i am a rat, michael?

It appears so......at least you're not a rabbit-spliced test tube baby....

[turkish]

Are you insinuating that i am a rat, michael?
Remember Splinter from Ninja Turtles? He was jacked and could probably kick everybody's ass.

[Robboe]

It appears so......at least you're not a rabbit-spliced test tube baby....

Yeah, life could be worse i suppose.

[DejaBlue55]

Haha, Hey Ironpimper, nice thread, one of the few that actually enlightens me, so to speak, compared to the others. I look forward to more repsonses from the big guys. Thanks.

[Bammy]

Some people have stated they thought sesathin did nothing for them also, so i've been starting to think that some people simply respond to PPARa activators moreso than others. In the same way that i get nothing from ephedrine for fat loss (but it's great for stimulation and appetite supression) whereas others get great results. I also get nothing from clenbuterol, whereas others get amazing results.
Wow, so you get nothing from creatine, clen and ephedrine? Thats too bad. Is that why you work for a company that has innovatine products?

[Twin Peak]

Wow, so you get nothing from creatine, clen and ephedrine? Thats too bad. Is that why you work for a company that has innovatine products?

The same is true for me. Though ephedrine was very good for short term appetite suppression for me.

[Robboe]

Wow, so you get nothing from creatine, clen and ephedrine? Thats too bad. Is that why you work for a company that has innovatine products?

Yeah, partly.

As far as being a non-responder though, Twin peak has it much worse than me.

[Lok7y]

I seem to have an alien thyroid--nothing from Synthroid (T3) or Trimax, as if it's completely resistant. So I can relate a little.


Steve's non-responsiveness is clearly in a league of its own however; I've never seen anything like it for the life of me.

[Robboe]

I seem to have an alien thyroid--nothing from Synthroid (T3) or Trimax, as if it's completely resistant. So I can relate a little.


Steve's non-responsiveness is clearly in a league of its own however; I've never seen anything like it for the life of me.

He's be good for the myostatin doping trials.

[Twin Peak]

I seem to have an alien thyroid--nothing from Synthroid (T3) or Trimax, as if it's completely resistant. So I can relate a little.


Steve's non-responsiveness is clearly in a league of its own however; I've never seen anything like it for the life of me.

LOL. T3 did nada for me as well, shocker.

[IronPimper]

Rob and Steve,

since you guys are such non-responders, may I ask which products you've had great success with? And yes Robboe, we know you like Activate

[BiggJohn]

If Loky is correct about the product being under dosed, we should hope DS was buying in such small batches as not to realize any appreciable volume discount (in regards to the beta sale version). Otherwise, it would seem that it would be prohibitively expensive.

[BiggJohn]

I'm hoping some others with scientific knowledge of ppar upregulation will chime in, but I've been doing some thinking about melting point.

I've noticed that while the hype was overwhelming, results haven't been quite what consumers expected. Some people were particularly upset with the alpha testing by DS, and then others seemed to not respond well to the beta version. This got me thinking, why?

If I'm correct, ppar alpha and beta upregulation leads to an increase in fatty acid oxidation. This should, providing the product has an effect on ppar alpha and/or beta, burn considerably more fat.

However, my understanding is also that increased fatty acid oxidation isn't nearly as effective without a general increase in lipolysis, or the release of fatty acids into the blood stream. This increase in general the result of a low carb diet that depletes glycogen stores, increased cardiovascular activity, and alpha and beta receptor stimulation.

Many of the people who used or are using melting point did not/are not doing cardio or any significance, or following a low carb diet. Nor are they utilizing a alpha/beta receptor agonist like ephedrine, clen, etc. I imagine that the lack of these ancillaries is, at least in part, due to the huge hype surrounding melting point as an "uncoupler" and something that would increase metabolic rate by 25-30%.

I really feel that the true value of this product could be seen when used in conjunction with a low carb diet and regular medium intensity cardio. With release of a great deal of fatty acids into the blood stream, melting point would be free to drastically increase the fatty acid oxidation with a result being a drastic reduction in adipose tissue.

What do you think?

Nice post IP. No supplement for Diet and Cardio.

[IronPimper]

My understanding, thanks to Uhockey (mike), is that the final version will be 180 caps (6 per day) and still be cheaper than the beta version. The point here is that if it is indeed capable of doing what it is thought to be able to do, it won't really be that expensive. I'd gladly pay $40-50 per month for something that will raise my metabolism 10% with that boost coming from fatty acid oxidation. Add to that the health benefits that a product like this has (cholesterol, anti-oxident, insulin resistance, etc.) and it's quite a bargain.

[Twin Peak]

Rob and Steve,

since you guys are such non-responders, may I ask which products you've had great success with? And yes Robboe, we know you like Activate

Sure.

RXT worked well on my gyno. RXT and ActivaTe worked very well (increase strength significantly).

Superdrol is the best PH/PS I have ever used. Strength and volumization is through the roof.

No fatburner has ever worked on me (supplement or gray area stuff). I have never tried DNP. I have yet to try melting point in a dieting situation. Double dose PhenoGen and double dose Lean Xtreme along with a fat fast worked nicely, however.

LeptiGen Classic was the best appetite supressant ever.

Vendetta (Xtreme Formulations) is my favorite pre-workout drink. I noticed a transient increase in strength and endurance.

I have yet to meet a creatine product that does anything. Most PHs and PSs do nothing (save high dose 1-test and M1T).

I do not notice any benefit on GXR, though I take it for its health benefits. Lean Xtreme alone does nothing for me.

I may be missing a thing or two. But honestly, since my involvement in the industry, I have a limited experience with other companies products.

[Twin Peak]

My understanding, thanks to Uhockey (mike), is that the final version will be 180 caps (6 per day) and still be cheaper than the beta version. The point here is that if it is indeed capable of doing what it is thought to be able to do, it won't really be that expensive. I'd gladly pay $40-50 per month for something that will raise my metabolism 10% with that boost coming from fatty acid oxidation. Add to that the health benefits that a product like this has (cholesterol, anti-oxident, insulin resistance, etc.) and it's quite a bargain.

It will indeed be 180 caps.

As far as cheaper than the beta, that is hard to say. It will carry an MSRP of $64.99. I can't say what bb.com will be selling it for, but it will likely be much cheaper than that.

[uhockey]

It will indeed be 180 caps.

As far as cheaper than the beta, that is hard to say. It will carry an MSRP of $64.99. I can't say what bb.com will be selling it for, but it will likely be much cheaper than that.

I would like to add that I NEVER stated the retail would be cheaper than the beta as I have no frame of reference regarding product pricing at this point in my stay with DS.

[factotum]

I would like to add that I NEVER stated the retail would be cheaper than the beta as I have no frame of reference regarding product pricing at this point in my stay with DS.

It would be nice if it were though. Especially when we find out that 10-12 caps is the real ideal dose.

[covert ash]

What are the thoughts of combining this WITH Sesathin? :)

[Twin Peak]

It would be nice if it were though. Especially when we find out that 10-12 caps is the real ideal dose.

I don't think so. 6 caps seem to work for most, and 8 caps for just about everyone.

And I do expect you will see it for cheaper than $55, but that is up to the retailers.

[factotum]

I don't think so. 6 caps seem to work for most, and 8 caps for just about everyone.

And I do expect you will see it for cheaper than $55, but that is up to the retailers.
That would be a good deal. Reports vary on the appropriate dose but I believe 2-3 g ED of TTA would really kick some ass. Could produce DNP like results without the toxicity.

Kinda sucks tho for the people who beta tested the product for you as they probably spent more than they should have or will.

[IronPimper]

I would like to add that I NEVER stated the retail would be cheaper than the beta as I have no frame of reference regarding product pricing at this point in my stay with DS.

sorry man, i just re-read your pm and realized that i was wrong. I must have gotten the price reference elsewhere. My bad.

[covert ash]

What are the thoughts of combining this WITH Sesathin? :)

Bump.

I ask because if the cost of Melting Point is going to be relatively high, then perhaps using a little of both at the same time would be able to yield an effective combination that may be able to cut costs down while reaping more of the benefits.

Or I may just be off my rocker. :)

[uhockey]

That would be a good deal. Reports vary on the appropriate dose but I believe 2-3 g ED of TTA would really kick some ass. Could produce DNP like results without the toxicity.

Kinda sucks tho for the people who beta tested the product for you as they probably spent more than they should have or will.

I do not believe anyone confirmed the presence of TTA in the LipidAce complex, nor what the dosing of any of the ingredients are.

[uhockey]

Bump.

I ask because if the cost of Melting Point is going to be relatively high, then perhaps using a little of both at the same time would be able to yield an effective combination that may be able to cut costs down while reaping more of the benefits.

Or I may just be off my rocker. :)

Considering the MSRP of Sesathin is $59.99 and BB.com sells it for $34.79, I'm sure you can expect MP to be sold somewhere around the $40 range. While I see no problem with using both Sesathin and MP, both products dosing would likely need to be decreased to avoid over-stimulation of PPAR-alpha and potential stimulation of other less-beneficial PPAR subtypes.

Additionally, I'm sure we can expect the price of sesathin (or sesamin/episesamin) to drop somewhat as the new sesamin products by MAN, Nutrabolics (sure to be overpriced,) and an as yet unnamed (not DS) 3rd product hit the market.

[Robboe]

I would also suggest lowering one or the other if using MP and sesa due to the potential cramping issue being reported.

[Robboe]

Rob and Steve,

since you guys are such non-responders, may I ask which products you've had great success with? And yes Robboe, we know you like Activate

lol.

Stuff i really like:

ActivaTe
LeptiGen Mass
LipoDerm-Ultra/Skulpt (although topicals can become a pain in the ass)

E/C for appetite suppression and pre-workout boost
nicotine for appetite supression

I'm not big on protein or protein formulas (although it's hard to gauge cause i've never really tried any), so plain whey and maltodextrin do me nicely.

I also like all of the other DS products, but i don't wanna sound like too much of a pimp.

[nutrabolicsCURT]

Considering the MSRP of Sesathin is $59.99 and BB.com sells it for $34.79, I'm sure you can expect MP to be sold somewhere around the $40 range. While I see no problem with using both Sesathin and MP, both products dosing would likely need to be decreased to avoid over-stimulation of PPAR-alpha and potential stimulation of other less-beneficial PPAR subtypes.

Additionally, I'm sure we can expect the price of sesathin (or sesamin/episesamin) to drop somewhat as the new sesamin products by MAN, Nutrabolics (sure to be overpriced,) and an as yet unnamed (not DS) 3rd product hit the market.

Is MAN coming out with a sesamin product?
FYI - our SUPER FATS will be cheaper than Avant's product.

[covert ash]

Considering the MSRP of Sesathin is $59.99 and BB.com sells it for $34.79, I'm sure you can expect MP to be sold somewhere around the $40 range. While I see no problem with using both Sesathin and MP, both products dosing would likely need to be decreased to avoid over-stimulation of PPAR-alpha and potential stimulation of other less-beneficial PPAR subtypes.

Additionally, I'm sure we can expect the price of sesathin (or sesamin/episesamin) to drop somewhat as the new sesamin products by MAN, Nutrabolics (sure to be overpriced,) and an as yet unnamed (not DS) 3rd product hit the market.

Nice! That was what I wanted to know, more than anything else. Thank you. :)

[Twin Peak]

Is MAN coming out with a sesamin product?
FYI - our SUPER FATS will be cheaper than Avant's product.

Curt, are all your products copies from other companies? And if so, do you need to compare your prices to the company you copied every chance you get?

I ask you this, because you should know, since you are the sales guy. That would be in your realm of knowledge, right? I mean its not like a CoA or anything.

[Sixpack]

Interesting I look forward to trying it out, MP is a little pricey for me


Is MAN coming out with a sesamin product?
FYI - our SUPER FATS will be cheaper than Avant's product.

[uhockey]

Interesting I look forward to trying it out, MP is a little pricey for me

SAN products are a little pricey for everyone. Once again, that price is the MSRP, the retailers set their own prices and it will be significantly lower. I repeat, $59.99MSRP for sesathin.......have any of you ever paid that?

[Sixpack]

lol damn man u need to chill ,IMO San products are reasonable



SAN products are a little pricey for everyone. Once again, that price is the MSRP, the retailers set their own prices and it will be significantly lower. I repeat, $59.99MSRP for sesathin.......have any of you ever paid that?

[jaymode]

Is MAN coming out with a sesamin product?
FYI - our SUPER FATS will be cheaper than Avant's product.

Yup capped too. It is called VAPORIZE.

Will your Super Fats have the same amount of Sesamin per dose or less?

[nutrabolicsCURT]

Curt, are all your products copies from other companies? And if so, do you need to compare your prices to the company you copied every chance you get?

I ask you this, because you should know, since you are the sales guy. That would be in your realm of knowledge, right? I mean its not like a CoA or anything.

Bro, one guy mentioned he thought ours would be more expensive than the competition and I answered him saying NO it will actually be cheaper.
How's that for an answer?
What's with the rude response about me being a sales guy? What do you do at Designer Supps? Let me guess - You are a forum troll making $7 an hour! Congrats!
You dont even work for AVANT but you have to stick your 2 cents in there...and last I heard DS was coming out with a sesamin product too...is that correct?
Just because ours will have the most potent and unique formula, and be priced better than any others, DONT CRY!

[Sixpack]

Curt do u have any info on your product and how much it will be etc and if so is it similar to "Man" new product Vaporize. Let me know via PM etc
Thanks


Bro, one guy mentioned he thought ours would be more expensive than the competition and I answered him saying NO it will actually be cheaper.
How's that for an answer?
What's with the rude response about me being a sales guy? What do you do at Designer Supps? Let me guess - You are a forum troll making $7 an hour! Congrats!
You dont even work for AVANT but you have to stick your 2 cents in there...and last I heard DS was coming out with a sesamin product too...is that correct?
Just because ours will have the most potent and unique formula, and be priced better than any others, DONT CRY!

[uhockey]

Bro, one guy mentioned he thought ours would be more expensive than the competition and I answered him saying NO it will actually be cheaper.
How's that for an answer?
What's with the rude response about me being a sales guy? What do you do at Designer Supps? Let me guess - You are a forum troll making $7 an hour! Congrats!
You dont even work for AVANT but you have to stick your 2 cents in there...and last I heard DS was coming out with a sesamin product too...is that correct?
Just because ours will have the most potent and unique formula, and be priced better than any others, DONT CRY!

Hahahahaha, oh wow, Curt......seriously.....you REALLY need to do your research. DS is NOT working on a sesamin product, Melting Point is something totally different. Twin Peak DID work for Avant and QUIT to join DS. I rather doubt you will outprice MAN or the other rumored product on it's way out either, and I know for a FACT you'll never have the same clout as J-Rod, Par, Loki, or TP.

Really Curt, I tried, I tried very hard to be nice to you and give your company a fair chance, but you continue to make an ass of yourself over and over.....you don't know your own product line let alone the competitor......please, for your sake, stop.

[BiggJohn]

Bro, one guy mentioned he thought ours would be more expensive than the competition and I answered him saying NO it will actually be cheaper.
How's that for an answer?
What's with the rude response about me being a sales guy? What do you do at Designer Supps? Let me guess - You are a forum troll making $7 an hour! Congrats!
You dont even work for AVANT but you have to stick your 2 cents in there...and last I heard DS was coming out with a sesamin product too...is that correct?
Just because ours will have the most potent and unique formula, and be priced better than any others, DONT CRY!

I'm glad to see some competion in the sesamin sector. Hopefully this doesn't discourage companies that actually innovate, like Avant Labs, from delivering sought after products.

[Twin Peak]

Bro, one guy mentioned he thought ours would be more expensive than the competition and I answered him saying NO it will actually be cheaper.
How's that for an answer?
What's with the rude response about me being a sales guy? What do you do at Designer Supps? Let me guess - You are a forum troll making $7 an hour! Congrats!
You dont even work for AVANT but you have to stick your 2 cents in there...and last I heard DS was coming out with a sesamin product too...is that correct?
Just because ours will have the most potent and unique formula, and be priced better than any others, DONT CRY!

Yep, I am a paid forum troll. How did you guess?

I stick up for those I respect; and I used to work for Avant.

Your intelligence is failing you as well. Intelligence has a double meaning here, I figured I'd share that, to lend you a hand.

[jrkarp]

I think it's been a very long time since Steve worked for anything anywhere near $7 an hour.

/karp

[Twin Peak]

I think it's been a very long time since Steve worked for anything anywhere near $7 an hour.

/karp

;)

[IronPimper]

Hahahahaha, oh wow, Curt......seriously.....you REALLY need to do your research. DS is NOT working on a sesamin product, Melting Point is something totally different. Twin Peak DID work for Avant and QUIT to join DS. I rather doubt you will outprice MAN or the other rumored product on it's way out either, and I know for a FACT you'll never have the same clout as J-Rod, Par, Loki, or TP.

Really Curt, I tried, I tried very hard to be nice to you and give your company a fair chance, but you continue to make an ass of yourself over and over.....you don't know your own product line let alone the competitor......please, for your sake, stop.

I absolutely agree. It's getting to be redundant, and annoying, to see curt pop up in every thread involving a product that his company will be copying. It's also pretty dirty (in a used car salesman kind of way) to pimp your product and its price in a thread specifically geared for information on a completely different product.

If I haven't made my point clearly enough, Curt, let me put it this way. Avant and MAN, as well as DS rank in the top 5-10 companies in all of the supplement industry as far as I am concerned, right along with ergo, controlled labs, omega, On, prima/scivation and NOW. Your product would have to be CONSIDERABLY cheaper AND CONSIDERABLY better for me to consider it over your competitors, and I hope others feel the same.

Your shameless spamming and your companies less than spectacular track record have you on the fast track towards legal gear/muscle tech status.

[Steve_W]

IMO San products are reasonable

No way. Just one example. Xpand Vs Vault. Look at the price difference and Xpand is a better product imo.

[Twin Peak]

Let me also note for the record, Curt, that the comment about you being the sales guy was not a dig on sales guys. Though I have noticed you are quite sensitive and defensive about it. Complex?

Rather, it is the silly way you spam and then hide behind your "sales guy status" when you get asked the hard questions. And even some of the soft ones.

[Sixpack]

You have never tried Vault , thus u should not comment on it


No way. Just one example. Xpand Vs Vault. Look at the price difference and Xpand is a better product imo.

[BringnIt]

"You have never tried Vault , thus u should not comment on it"

Many people make many comments on many products they haven't tried. It's going to get really old if you take every negative comment made about your company's products personally, Six. Vault will speak for itself.

[Steve_W]

You have never tried Vault , thus u should not comment on it

Well, perhaps if it was reasonably priced then I would!

[CogInTheWheel]

Twin Peak can't be doing that much over at Designer Supplements. I am sure he gets some differed pay from sledge for his company message board spam. And I don't see where Robboe fits in. Just another dingo that knows nothing about nothing. I bet he was hired to stand outside of his flat in Britain and yell DESIGNER SUPPLEMENTS!!! at the top of his lungs for an hour each night. Can't say sledge isn't creative with his marketing.

[IronPimper]

Twin Peak can't be doing that much over at Designer Supplements. I am sure he gets some differed pay from sledge for his company message board spam. And I don't see where Robboe fits in. Just another dingo that knows nothing about nothing. I bet he was hired to stand outside of his flat in Britain and yell DESIGNER SUPPLEMENTS!!! at the top of his lungs for an hour each night. Can't say sledge isn't creative with his marketing.

You truly are worthless in all regards when it comes to this forum. Do yourself a favor and at least articulate one or two worthwhile points if you want anyone to take anything you say seriously.

[uhockey]

And I don't see where Robboe fits in. Just another dingo that knows nothing about nothing. I bet he was hired to stand outside of his flat in Britain and yell DESIGNER SUPPLEMENTS!!! at the top of his lungs for an hour each night. Can't say sledge isn't creative with his marketing.

It suddenly all makes sense, they are paying Rob for something!! If I ever visit England I'll be sure to keep my ears tuned to make sure he's doing a good job! :rolleyes:

[uhockey]

"You have never tried Vault , thus u should not comment on it"

Many people make many comments on many products they haven't tried. It's going to get really old if you take every negative comment made about your company's products personally, Six. Vault will speak for itself.

?? Going to ?? We went from Malto is bad avoid malto at all costs to recommending it as a pre-bed product over the course of one day!


Say what you will about me, I am a dick, but at least I'm honest.

[samos1]

Interesting that there's a bit of Sesamin competition.. how far off is it?

[Steve_W]

?? Going to ?? We went from Malto is bad avoid malto at all costs to recommending it as a pre-bed product over the course of one day!


Say what you will about me, I am a dick, but at least I'm honest.

Yes, my question about malto is still unanswered. :rolleyes:

[Sixpack]

1.Once again if u have not tried a product don't comment on it
2. I don't recommend malto at all if someone is too lazy to blend up oats and whey then a MRP with a little malto is not going to kill him or her but once again many people are still too lazy to take regular whey and oats and make a MRP.

[Steve_W]

1.Once again if u have not tried a product don't comment on it
2. I don't recommend malto at all if someone is too lazy to blend up oats and whey then a MRP with a little malto is not going to kill him or her but once again many people are still too lazy to take regular whey and oats and make a MRP.

Still contradictory. Btw, Innovation has two n's.

[DeathfromBelow]

It is somewhat disappointing to me to see that Loki brought up some interesting scientific points and I also mentioned that there was no mention of ppar-alpha agonists showing any weight loss in the scientific literature, yet these points were totally overlooked in this thread. Especially when this thread seems to me as though it was created to discuss the science of ppars and melting point. Instead we have company reps talking about which is more rat-like and more corporate "i'm better than you" bull****. I am not trying to bash anyone but does anyone (especially the people who's product is being discussed) have anything meaningful to say about ppars and melting point?

[uhockey]

The active component of melting point is a ppar-agonist. For references on PPAR and it's benefits, check out http://www.cas.psu.edu/docs/CASDEPT/VET/jackvh/ppar/pparrfront.htm

[DeathfromBelow]

The active component of melting point is a ppar-agonist. For references on PPAR and it's benefits, check out http://www.cas.psu.edu/docs/CASDEPT/VET/jackvh/ppar/pparrfront.htm


Thanks, I can search pubmed if I want references, but I thought this was supposed to be a discussion on ppar agonists in relation to melting point?

[uhockey]

Thanks, I can search pubmed if I want references, but I thought this was supposed to be a discussion on ppar agonists in relation to melting point?

As we have not released the full spectrum of ingredients in the LipidAce complex due to the nature of this industry and knock-off products, I cannot give you specific references other than what is already listed in our product writeup found at www.designersupps.com I will simply confirm that the actives are literature cited activators of PPAR.

[Robboe]

Is MAN coming out with a sesamin product?
FYI - our SUPER FATS will be cheaper than Avant's product.

FYI - your SUPER FATS product is not just sesamin. Granted, SesaThin has lecithin, but i'd like to know just how much sesamin:episesamin your product has per cap/serving.

[Robboe]

Twin Peak can't be doing that much over at Designer Supplements. I am sure he gets some differed pay from sledge for his company message board spam. And I don't see where Robboe fits in. Just another dingo that knows nothing about nothing. I bet he was hired to stand outside of his flat in Britain and yell DESIGNER SUPPLEMENTS!!! at the top of his lungs for an hour each night. Can't say sledge isn't creative with his marketing.

Have you been watching me? That is spooky, cause this is exactly what i do.

Occasionally i go back inside and look on some forums.

[DeathfromBelow]

As we have not released the full spectrum of ingredients in the LipidAce complex due to the nature of this industry and knock-off products, I cannot give you specific references other than what is already listed in our product writeup found at www.designersupps.com I will simply confirm that the actives are literature cited activators of PPAR.


I think you are missing my point. I am fully capable of doing research. However, I would like to see some discussion about how the research applies to the product -- especially from the makers of the product. There is no rebuttal of mine or loki's statements?

[Robboe]

I think you are missing my point. I am fully capable of doing research. However, I would like to see some discussion about how the research applies to the product -- especially from the makers of the product. There is no rebuttal of mine or loki's statements?

Rebuttal of what?

I know of several people who have experienced amazing fat loss using fibrates, not to mention the fat loss noted by those using sesathin (sesamin being a natural fibrate, and not a chemical synthesised one).

Typically PPARdelta/beta is involved in cell membrane formation etc... but may also play some role in fat loss, yeah. I've not read too much into it to be honest.

[DeathfromBelow]

Rebuttal of what?

I know of several people who have experienced amazing fat loss using fibrates, not to mention the fat loss noted by those using sesathin (sesamin being a natural fibrate, and not a chemical synthesised one).

Typically PPARdelta/beta is involved in cell membrane formation etc... but may also play some role in fat loss, yeah. I've not read too much into it to be honest.


Referring to the fact that there is no evidence in the literature of ppar alpha agonists resulting in weight loss in animals or humans. Also Loki's comment about BMR elevation unlikely to be more than 10%. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but I would think that you would offer some opposing views supported by science.

[skelooth]

My thoughts on melting point:

I don't care if it works or not, but the proof is in the pudding, so I'll let you all know as I test it :) I am beyond placebo effects.

[Robboe]

Referring to the fact that there is no evidence in the literature of ppar alpha agonists resulting in weight loss in animals or humans. Also Loki's comment about BMR elevation unlikely to be more than 10%. I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but I would think that you would offer some opposing views supported by science.

The 30% was using rats, i believe. 10% is still a nice jump.

I have a nice PDF showing a lot of amazing benefits of Lipidace that i'll make available when/if we annouce the actives of the product. But bear in mind that LipidAce does more than just activate PPAR. I'm sure you've read the write-up description.

[DeathfromBelow]

The 30% was using rats, i believe. 10% is still a nice jump.

I have a nice PDF showing a lot of amazing benefits of Lipidace that i'll make available when/if we annouce the actives of the product. But bear in mind that LipidAce does more than just activate PPAR. I'm sure you've read the write-up description.


I have and ppar-alpha activation does have some nice effects of its own (including lower cholesterol higher HDl, immune system benefits etc..) The non-ppar effects are also interesting but unfortunately, I don't see weight loss being one of them. Don't get me wrong. I don't think sesathin is very useful for fat loss either, but I think it is great for maintaining good cholesterol values -- melting point should be able to compete in this area.

[uhockey]

Referring to the fact that there is no evidence in the literature of ppar alpha agonists resulting in weight loss in animals or humans.

If that is the case, how does Loki justify his company's production of Sesathin and the impressive weight loss results seen from it in many users??

[Robboe]

Don't get me wrong. I don't think sesathin is very useful for fat loss either, but I think it is great for maintaining good cholesterol values -- melting point should be able to compete in this area.

Have you not read all the feedback on sesathin for fat loss while dieting or fat gain prevention when bulking?

[DeathfromBelow]

Have you not read all the feedback on sesathin for fat loss while dieting or fat gain prevention when bulking?


I'm not a big fan of anecdotal feedback. I look at my results and what the science says. If it works for people for losing weight, then good for them. I am not saying that sesathin or melting point do not have good uses, they do. I am just not sold on weight loss. The benefits I mentioned are well worth it IMHO.

[Robboe]

I'm not a big fan of anecdotal feedback. I look at my results and what the science says. If it works for people for losing weight, then good for them. I am not saying that sesathin or melting point do not have good uses, they do. I am just not sold on weight loss. The benefits I mentioned are well worth it IMHO.

Understood, i appreciate science myself.

[uhockey]

Understood, i appreciate science myself.

I concur, but getting large human trials is difficult for small companies and people like Pfizer just don't give a **** about sesamin because they can make millions on the fibrates. Low level PPAR agonists like sesamin and the LipidAce complex are obviously not as beneficial as the fibrates, but are available without a prescription and without all the sides. Additionally, while there is minimal case controlled double blind placebo controlled studies of PPAR agonists in humans in terms of weight loss, there is plenty of information on their anti-oxidant, anti-cancer, and serum cholesterol/lipid lowering effects.

Anecdote or not, all things controlled as much as humanly possible, in my n=1 personal experiments, 2x daily dosing of sesathin will allow me to consume approximately 300 more calories per day without weight gain than 1x daily dosing. This experiment has been tried on two seperate occassions with 2 different workout routines under very strict conditions (Same foods, same meal timings, same workout routine, same wakeup/sleep schedule) as I was exam prepping at the time and am extremely regimented.......although not nearly as much so as I was during my ActivaTe log while prepping for Step1.

[skelooth]

I concur, but getting large human trials is difficult for small companies and people like Pfizer just don't give a **** about sesamin because they can make millions on the fibrates. Low level PPAR agonists like sesamin and the LipidAce complex are obviously not as beneficial as the fibrates, but are available without a prescription and without all the sides. Additionally, while there is minimal case controlled double blind placebo controlled studies of PPAR agonists in humans in terms of weight loss, there is plenty of information on their anti-oxidant, anti-cancer, and serum cholesterol/lipid lowering effects.

Anecdote or not, all things controlled as much as humanly possible, in my n=1 personal experiments, 2x daily dosing of sesathin will allow me to consume approximately 300 more calories per day without weight gain than 1x daily dosing. This experiment has been tried on two seperate occassions with 2 different workout routines under very strict conditions (Same foods, same meal timings, same workout routine, same wakeup/sleep schedule) as I was exam prepping at the time and am extremely regimented.......although not nearly as much so as I was during my ActivaTe log while prepping for Step1.


uhockey, you better not be sending me placebos in a melting point bottle :mad:

[IronPimper]

I have and ppar-alpha activation does have some nice effects of its own (including lower cholesterol higher HDl, immune system benefits etc..) The non-ppar effects are also interesting but unfortunately, I don't see weight loss being one of them. Don't get me wrong. I don't think sesathin is very useful for fat loss either, but I think it is great for maintaining good cholesterol values -- melting point should be able to compete in this area.

science says that cla will work, i haven't had any results with it, nor have most other users.

science says glutamine won't work, and many people have had results with it, others have not.

While there isn't alot of science on ppar alpha agonists, this study,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12195019&query_hl=1

suggests that a ppar alpha agonist could create an environment of hyperleptinemia. Leptin levels are directy related to t3 levels as well as fatty acid oxidation. That means that a strong ppar alpha agonist could increase leptin levels enough to stimulate more t3, thus raising metabolism. It could also cause an increase in fatty acid oxidation, which will greatly effect fat loss if adequate lipolysis exists.


This study,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15893114&query_hl=1

also shows a direct correlation in ppar alpha upregulators to decreasing insulin sensitivity, inducing hyperleptinemia, along with several other benefits.

I don't doubt that melting point works, I was just trying to determine if this is something that would be effective without diet an exercise. I know there is no such thing as a magic pill, however, there are products like dnp,clen, t3, triac, etc that will oxidize fat without a change in caloric expenditure. My real question is, did the hype surrounding melting point cause people to think this would be a product similar to those?

I don't believe this product has that capability. I do believe it serves (in the right dose) a variety of functions, including increased fat loss via insulin sensitivity, letpin increase, and fatty acid oxidation. However, in general, these are mechanisms that require the proper diet and cardio to take full advantage of. Let me put it this way, i think that if you take 8 caps of melting point every day, it could probably help your body burn 200 more calories per day without any other change. However, if you were to change your diet and add cardio, I believe that those results would be greatly personified, to the point of say 400-600 calories per day in additional fat loss.

[nutrabolicsCURT]

Hahahahaha, oh wow, Curt......seriously.....you REALLY need to do your research. DS is NOT working on a sesamin product, Melting Point is something totally different. Twin Peak DID work for Avant and QUIT to join DS. I rather doubt you will outprice MAN or the other rumored product on it's way out either, and I know for a FACT you'll never have the same clout as J-Rod, Par, Loki, or TP.

Really Curt, I tried, I tried very hard to be nice to you and give your company a fair chance, but you continue to make an ass of yourself over and over.....you don't know your own product line let alone the competitor......please, for your sake, stop.

Let's see...YOU works for DS now, and so does TP. I should have put $$$ on the fact that you would stick up for your colleague, when all I asked HIM was a simple question.
I dont follow TP everywhere he goes so I didnt know he works for Avant.
FYI we will outprice MAN and Avant on our SUPER FATS product, whether you doubt us or not.
I am glad you liked you samples we sent - please lets not make this personal.

[uhockey]

Let's see...YOU works for DS now, and so does TP. I should have put $$$ on the fact that you would stick up for your colleague, when all I asked HIM was a simple question.
I dont follow TP everywhere he goes so I didnt know he works for Avant.
FYI we will outprice MAN and Avant on our SUPER FATS product, whether you doubt us or not.
I am glad you liked you samples we sent - please lets not make this personal.

And I will be 100% honest in my review of InsuleanK and GXR. As many know, despite my new affiliation with Designer, I have never been sold on GXR or it's product writeup.......unlike Sixpack I will not begin pimping a product simply because I work for a company. I was not making it personal, but you did take an ill-advised shot at TP without having any clue regarding his past or his position with DS, and as such you should apologize for being wrong.

If you are telling the truth regarding outpricing Vaporize and Sesathin, I shall look forward to ordering and testing your product.

[Robboe]

FYI we will outprice MAN and Avant on our SUPER FATS product, whether you doubt us or not.

Unless your product is over 40% sesamin, i doubt many people will be all that bothered about it. And i mean over 40% sesamin per serving, i am not referring to the strength/concentration of the sesamin you use.

[nutrabolicsCURT]

Unless your product is over 40% sesamin, i doubt many people will be all that bothered about it. And i mean over 40% sesamin per serving, i am not referring to the strength/concentration of the sesamin you use.

First off, I am not sure how you can make a statement like that...
CLA is a huge category of supplementation, and the main issue with CLA is the fact that most CLA's in the industry are 60% extracts....Ours is a 90%.
Plus, Pinolenic Acid is a new FFA that will be making big waves in the industry.
It is my understanding that each of the 3 ingredients will be in 1:1:1 ratios, thus making Super Fats a 33% sesamin product....

[Robboe]

First off, I am not sure how you can make a statement like that...
CLA is a huge category of supplementation, and the main issue with CLA is the fact that most CLA's in the industry are 60% extracts....Ours is a 90%.
Plus, Pinolenic Acid is a new FFA that will be making big waves in the industry.
It is my understanding that each of the 3 ingredients will be in 1:1:1 ratios, thus making Super Fats a 33% sesamin product....

Fair enough then, make a pure CLA product and a pure sesamin product.

See which sells more.

CLA has been around the block and back and most people don't bother with it anymore. There is much more interest in sesamin lately due to the internet and it is only a matter of time before it takes off.

[WorkoutMD]

Fair enough then, make a pure CLA product and a pure sesamin product.

See which sells more.

CLA has been around the block and back and most people don't bother with it anymore. There is much more interest in sesamin lately due to the internet and it is only a matter of time before it takes off.


I have to agree with Robboe on this one. Adding CLA to your product is certainly not a selling point to me--if I want to add CLA I would just add something like Primaforce Max CLA or something equivalent. I will have to research Pinolenic acid a little more to determine if I believe it will have some benefit. For now, I will stay with my Sesathin and wait for user feedback on your product.

[covert ash]

Riddle me this. What's the difference between a 10% extract out of 100 mg, and a 20% extract from 50 mg? You're still getting 10 mg of active component.

So even though you may have a very potent extract, you're not offering the full benefit to the consumer by putting in the full amount.

[HalleluYAH]

Fair enough then, make a pure CLA product and a pure sesamin product.

See which sells more.

CLA has been around the block and back and most people don't bother with it anymore. There is much more interest in sesamin lately due to the internet and it is only a matter of time before it takes off.
I concur.

[Par Deus]

I'm glad to see some competion in the sesamin sector. Hopefully this doesn't discourage companies that actually innovate, like Avant Labs, from delivering sought after products.


No, of course it does not affect innovation at all when someone can put in zero work and make just as much money (or more, when they are willing to lie and hype their product to high hell)

And, when your so-called friends are amongst the first to knock-off your product, it just gives you the warmest, fuzziest of fuzzy feelings.

I'm real, real cool with this.

[BiggJohn]

No, of course it does not affect innovation at all when someone can put in zero work and make just as much money (or more, when they are willing to lie and hype their product to high hell)

And, when your so-called friends are amongst the first to knock-off your product, it just gives you the warmest, fuzziest of fuzzy feelings.

I'm real, real cool with this.

tell us how you really feel

[nutrabolicsCURT]

No, of course it does not affect innovation at all when someone can put in zero work and make just as much money (or more, when they are willing to lie and hype their product to high hell)

And, when your so-called friends are amongst the first to knock-off your product, it just gives you the warmest, fuzziest of fuzzy feelings.

I'm real, real cool with this.

Similar I am sure to how we felt when we invested all this time and money and effort into introducing Arginine Ethyl Ester to the industry, and then all of a sudden there were half a dozen knock offs!

[Steve_W]

Similar I am sure to how we felt when we invested all this time and money and effort into introducing Arginine Ethyl Ester to the industry, and then all of a sudden there were half a dozen knock offs!

And in the process the time you put into ripping people off.

[CogInTheWheel]

Designer Supplements just steals science. Peddle your bunk product elsewhere.

[IronPimper]

Designer Supplements just steals science. Peddle your bunk product elsewhere.

interesting, which products did they steal the science for?

I don't recall a methasteron product being produced before theirs, but there have been 3 since.

I don't recall anyone using 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran in a product before them.

They made an atd product, and after theirs was available, PA and **** made one also. Are all of these companies "theives?"

I don't know of any other 7-oh product besides lean xtreme.

Again, you are useless member of this board with nothing productive to add. Get creative, get a job, or get a life. You are a worm.

[onehawaiian]

perhaps MP will be one of the better fat burners i've been looking for (post ban).
i am impressed with the cs i received from this company and look forward to trying more of their product line in the future.
:)

[Robboe]

interesting, which products did they steal the science for?

I don't recall a methasteron product being produced before theirs, but there have been 3 since.

I don't recall anyone using 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran in a product before them.

They made an atd product, and after theirs was available, PA and **** made one also. Are all of these companies "theives?"

I don't know of any other 7-oh product besides lean xtreme.

Again, you are useless member of this board with nothing productive to add. Get creative, get a job, or get a life. You are a worm.


Nice post.

**** tried to swipe 7-OH for a couple of their products and good old nutrabolics basically took the fundamentals of GXR and added some banaba. Whoop-de-doo, eh? lol.

[uhockey]

Nice post.

**** tried to swipe 7-OH for a couple of their products and good old nutrabolics basically took the fundamentals of GXR and added some banaba. Whoop-de-doo, eh? lol.

And left out the Q3/Q4 analogues which likely have a whole lot to do with GXR's stimulant potentiation. That said, I'm still not sure which product is superior and my comparison log will begin later this week.

[Par Deus]

Similar I am sure to how we felt when we invested all this time and money and effort into introducing Arginine Ethyl Ester to the industry, and then all of a sudden there were half a dozen knock offs!

Knock it off, Rodney.

[Robboe]

Knock it off, Rodney.

If they hadn't "introduced it first" i'm sure he would of. :)

[drewkowsky]

If they hadn't "introduced it first" i'm sure he would of. :)
that made my morning

[CogInTheWheel]

interesting, which products did they steal the science for?

I don't recall a methasteron product being produced before theirs, but there have been 3 since. Methasteron was a scheduled steroid in Italy. Real innovative, idiot.

I don't recall anyone using 3,4-Divanillyltetrahydrofuran in a product before them.

They made an atd product, and after theirs was available, PA and **** made one also. Are all of these companies "theives?"Bruce ******* came out with an ATD product first. Sledge ripped it.

I don't know of any other 7-oh product besides lean xtreme.Nuff said.

Again, you are useless member of this board with nothing productive to add. Get creative, get a job, or get a life. You are a worm.

I just destroyed your whole arguement. Responses in bold. Have fun. You are a DS fanboy.

[IronPimper]

I just destroyed your whole arguement. Responses in bold. Have fun. You are a DS fanboy.

you "destroyed" my argument by admitting that 75% of it is accurate. maybe I don't follow. I'm glad that mathasteron was a scheduled drug in italy, but i didn't see anyone else bringing it to the states until ds did.

BK was definately the first to have an atd product, but my point was that several other companies have since made an atd product also. I was asking you if you consider them to be thieves as well. For the record, rebound only has one active, novedex has 3, so it's not as though sledge copied a product. He made a cheaper, equally effective product by using an active.

of course you already admitted that there isn't any other company with a divanil product or a 7-oh product. To me that shows a good bit of innovation, especially since the former has a considerable amount of bloodwork that demonstrates its effectiveness, and the other is sworn by a good number of people on this board.

So according to your "non-biased" opinion (that really makes me laugh just typing it), ds steals science by having a single product in their line that someone else developed first, and because they brought a product from europe to our market. Boy are you right, those cheaters. What a worthless company. I'm gonna start buying nutrabolics, muscle tech, and bsn right now. Certainly they are the true innovators of the supplement world.

[Robboe]

Matt had been working on Rebound well before Novadex came out.

[factotum]

I just went to Par's board and you can see where DS gets all the ideas for it's products. TTA, Divanil, etc are all posted there in studies and whatnot. I'm not saying that DS is ripping off products but you can see where they get many of their ideas from.

[IronPimper]

I just went to Par's board and you can see where DS gets all the ideas for it's products. TTA, Divanil, etc are all posted there in studies and whatnot. I'm not saying that DS is ripping off products but you can see where they get many of their ideas from.

That's where everyone gets all of their ideas from. You think people invent this stuff out of thin air? There has to be some science available to determine if a product has any merit as a supplement. I wouldn't just go take a piece of bark off of my maple tree and try and turn it into a supplement. I would imagine that most of these supplements come from studies done by the pharmas when they try and develop a new drug. If something shows promise, the supplement companies look into further and determine if money can be made on the product.

Look at sesathin. I am sure that caleb didn't just one day say, "hey, i'm gonna put sesamin in a product." Rather it was the culmination of his reading on the benefits of fibrates, which led to him looking for a less toxic/potent relative, whereby he found sesamin. Once he had read about sesamin, he looked into the process that goes into cultivating it (which for what i understand is quite tedious, and requires a great deal of the original oil to produce a decent amount of the extract) and he had to decide if avant could produce it and still make money.

[BringnIt]

"You think people invent this stuff out of thin air?"

I said, "Yes," to this and then stopped reading your post...

j/k.

[BringnIt]

By the way, I'm pretty sure Caleb stole the idea from here:

http://forum.xtrememass.com/archive/index.php/t-323.html

J/k Par. Although I did find Twin Peak's comments interesting.

[skelooth]

who gives a **** where the ideas come from? All I care about is DO THE IDEAS WORK. Now get back on topic!

[nutrabolicsCURT]

Knock it off, Rodney.

Good one Par. I mean Caleb. Arent you banned from this forum?

[CogInTheWheel]

Matt had been working on Rebound well before Novadex came out.

Im not inclined to believe that. I know you can't back up that claim, so there was no point in making it.

[Robboe]

Im not inclined to believe that. I know you can't back up that claim, so there was no point in making it.

Given the close proximity of releases of novadex and rebound (does nayone have any solid proof which was released first?), there was every point in making it. We wouldn't rip-off a product in the first place, nevermind having all the research done, labels designed and printed, raw material sourcing and product cappers located within such a short space of time, as well as being able to answer questions about the product.

Oh yeah, and realising that ATD was the key to the product, not 3-OHAT which appears to be a waste of capsule space. You may wanna check out the companies who included this is their products as rip-offs cause they clearly don't understand why ******* included it in the first place, but "borrowed" the iea anyway.

[Robboe]

I just went to Par's board and you can see where DS gets all the ideas for it's products. TTA, Divanil, etc are all posted there in studies and whatnot. I'm not saying that DS is ripping off products but you can see where they get many of their ideas from.

Matt has only been a member at Avant since October 2003. Do you think he has time to search through the archives looking for potential product ideas when he has the likes of PubMed littered with literally hundreds of thousands of papers and ideas waiting to be exploited?

[factotum]

Matt has only been a member at Avant since October 2003. Do you think he has time to search through the archives looking for potential product ideas when he has the likes of PubMed littered with literally hundreds of thousands of papers and ideas waiting to be exploited?

Just because he's been a member since 2003 doesn't mean he can't search through the older posts. You think he really searches through all the pubmed articles trying to find some new chemical for a product? How would one go about that anyways? Search for a prospective product by what you hope it does? Then make sure the chemical is DSHEA compliant? Honestly look for the divanyl and SHBG at Avant and you see that there's a post that has a pubmed extract. The thread lists several chemicals and what they should do. These posts are like product ideas and from their you can run further pubmed searches to see if the chemical has potential.

[Robboe]

Just because he's been a member since 2003 doesn't mean he can't search through the older posts. You think he really searches through all the pubmed articles trying to find some new chemical for a product? How would one go about that anyways? Search for a prospective product by what you hope it does? Then make sure the chemical is DSHEA compliant? Honestly look for the divanyl and SHBG at Avant and you see that there's a post that has a pubmed extract. The thread lists several chemicals and what they should do. These posts are like product ideas and from their you can run further pubmed searches to see if the chemical has potential.

I have no idea how he comes up with product ideas, but he does. If you wanna believe it's through the Avant Labs forums then go right ahead.

[uhockey]

I have no idea how he comes up with product ideas, but he does. If you wanna believe it's through the Avant Labs forums then go right ahead.

Also, I might add, who cares if it is from Avant's forums? I have no idea whether it is or not, but Caleb and Spook are smart as hell, so why wouldn't someone browse their forums for ideas? It's not like DS "stole" those products from Avant, Avant wasn't producing those products to be stolen. Their forum, like all others, is an open realm of discussion. If Sledge opted to do the research, leg work, and production it is his product.

[Patrick Arnold]

No, of course it does not affect innovation at all when someone can put in zero work and make just as much money (or more, when they are willing to lie and hype their product to high hell)

And, when your so-called friends are amongst the first to knock-off your product, it just gives you the warmest, fuzziest of fuzzy feelings.




Don't confuse friendship and business Caleb. If you do not have a patent or some sort of protection on a material then you must expect people to knock it off. Business is business.

I assume you are talking about mike here. well mike has caused me headaches in the past also by selling bulk phenibut and bulk 6-OXO. this hurt me but I never let it affect my friendship with him. I understood that you must seperate the two. Just like if you are playing one on one hoops with a friend - you guys are gonna beat the **** out of each other to win, but when all is said and done you are still buddies

[Patrick Arnold]

No, of course it does not affect innovation at all when someone can put in zero work and make just as much money (or more, when they are willing to lie and hype their product to high hell)



welcome to the first 4 years of my supplement industry life.

Androstenedione, 4-AD, cyclos, not of this stuff made me much money at all. Made others TONS of money though, and i had to sit back and watch them desecrate the science and make a mockery of the inventions

And this despite the fact that i had a patent on 4-AD. Without the money to enforce the patent, it may as well be toilet paper

It was not till 1-AD that we learned how to do it right

[nni]

Don't confuse friendship and business Caleb. If you do not have a patent or some sort of protection on a material then you must expect people to knock it off. Business is business.

I assume you are talking about mike here. well mike has caused me headaches in the past also by selling bulk phenibut and bulk 6-OXO. this hurt me but I never let it affect my friendship with him. I understood that you must seperate the two. Just like if you are playing one on one hoops with a friend - you guys are gonna beat the **** out of each other to win, but when all is said and done you are still buddies

i thought he was talking about j-rod for his red sesathin, i mean vaproize.

[BringnIt]

I thought he was talking about Rodn... J-Rod, also.

[Patrick Arnold]

They made an atd product, and after theirs was available, PA and **** made one also. Are all of these companies "theives?".


Gaspari and kilo had atd before DS i think. not that it changes your point

[Patrick Arnold]

Matt had been working on Rebound well before Novadex came out.


define "working on"

come on robboe

[Robboe]

define "working on"

come on robboe

Fret not, i'm not trying to claim Matt "invented" ATD. I'm just trying to defend the idea that we "ripped off" *******.

[Robboe]

welcome to the first 4 years of my supplement industry life.

Androstenedione, 4-AD, cyclos, not of this stuff made me much money at all. Made others TONS of money though, and i had to sit back and watch them desecrate the science and make a mockery of the inventions


Awww...You musta felt like Willy Wonka when people started ripping off his everlasting gob-stopper. ;)

[Patrick Arnold]

who gives a **** where the ideas come from? All I care about is DO THE IDEAS WORK. Now get back on topic!


thats all that really matters

if companies want exclusivity for something then they either have to patent the stuff or find some way to control the source of raw material

if they cannot do that then companies should just shut their trap and not bitch about being ripped off

and nobody really invents anything completely anyway. Some things are more innovative than others. Geranamine i think was very innovative (though you guys will hopefully never know the details). Arachadonic acid (if it actually works) might qualify as an innovative extrapolation of more basic science as well.

But taking a completely synthetic anabolic steroid that was studied and patented long ago (DMT, superdrol) , and then reintroducing it because of a loophole in the law is really not innovative at all. At best you can call it "clever"

[Patrick Arnold]

Im not inclined to believe that. I know you can't back up that claim, so there was no point in making it.


Well i knew about the science and activity of ATD back in the late 90's. Hell it was in the literature for all to see. Does that mean i was qualified to say i was "working on it"

[Patrick Arnold]

Given the close proximity of releases of novadex and rebound (does nayone have any solid proof which was released first?), there was every point in making it. We wouldn't rip-off a product in the first place, nevermind having all the research done, labels designed and printed, raw material sourcing and product cappers located within such a short space of time, as well as being able to answer questions about the product.




hate to be a ball buster but.....

how did you guys end up mislabelling the first few bottles of ATD? you called it 1-dehydro 6-OXO (the chemical equivalent that is) i believe

[Patrick Arnold]

Fret not, i'm not trying to claim Matt "invented" ATD. I'm just trying to defend the idea that we "ripped off" *******.


well alrighty then

[Twin Peak]

By "working on", Rob meant that Matt was actively working on a synthesis and a source for a bulk supply. As well as testing small amounts from labs, and alpha testing for dosage. Working on.

As to the misnaming, I think Matt has answered this elsewhere. Essentially, that was back when Matt was a one man show, and there were too many moving parts, and he made a mistake.

[Twin Peak]

P.S. Pat, you know you love to be a ball buster....

[factotum]

Well i knew about the science and activity of ATD back in the late 90's. Hell it was in the literature for all to see. Does that mean i was qualified to say i was "working on it"

Seems like both companies refer to your 6-oxo write-up where a study mentions ATD. Seems like it was common knowledge at that point but I guess patent attorneys will argue that. As for the dubious naming shceme by DS that was merely their attempt to hide the active from copycats. It was merely bad luck that another product contained ATD and it looked like a copycat situation. I remember there was discuassion about it being DSHEA compliant so I'm wondering how DS determined it was.

[Patrick Arnold]

Seems like both companies refer to your 6-oxo write-up where a study mentions ATD. Seems like it was common knowledge at that point but I guess patent attorneys will argue that. As for the dubious naming shceme by DS that was merely their attempt to hide the active from copycats. It was merely bad luck that another product contained ATD and it looked like a copycat situation. I remember there was discuassion about it being DSHEA compliant so I'm wondering how DS determined it was.

i don't think DS tries to pretend that many of the things they sell are DSHEA compliant. INcluding ATD. Others give BS stories about intestines and sausages

[BiggJohn]

PA keeping everybody inline.

[Patrick Arnold]

P.S. Pat, you know you love to be a ball buster....


Twin, i just can't help myself.

[TheOMEGA]

welcome to the first 4 years of my supplement industry life.

Androstenedione, 4-AD, cyclos, not of this stuff made me much money at all. Made others TONS of money though, and i had to sit back and watch them desecrate the science and make a mockery of the inventions

And this despite the fact that i had a patent on 4-AD. Without the money to enforce the patent, it may as well be toilet paper

It was not till 1-AD that we learned how to do it right


hello PA are you saying that you basiclaly started out as a enthusiastic athlete and then basically had the brunt of your work used by others and you could not leverage the issue do to being new? and relatively humble?

I am actually seriusly asking
if you had to do it over again would you have chnaged anything?

thanks!

[Patrick Arnold]

hello PA are you saying that you basiclaly started out as a enthusiastic athlete and then basically had the brunt of your work used by others and you could not leverage the issue do to being new? and relatively humble?

I am actually seriusly asking
if you had to do it over again would you have chnaged anything?

thanks!


i got involved with the wrong guy at the beginning and he held me and my other partner back for years. PLus i trusted people too much in general. I was too eager to discuss my ideas and not smart enough to keep them quiet and protect them

with time, you learn to hold your ego back and become more practical about things. You learn not to take it personally when your ideas get stolen. They get stolen only because you were stupid enough to allow them to get stolen. People that bitch and moan about how someone is selling something that they thought up first really annoy me (however, complaining about someone misrepresenting the science and overhyping your idea is legit)

this is not a pretty little paradise we live in, its a competitive dog eat dog world. You can't be stupid and expect to not pay the price. You can't stay naive for long

[nni]

it happens when you are young, when i was a freshmen i was involved with a very popular website, we hit some snags (and charges ;)) and i wanted out, but still owned the site. the site went on to become a very popular site for the niche and make tons of money. i never signed over the name, but being as we were "friends" i have no proof because trust was involved. keep records of everything kids.

[TheOMEGA]

Awww...You musta felt like Willy Wonka when people started ripping off his everlasting gob-stopper.


if that happened to me it would drive me insane with rage

I just don't knwo what I would do in that one.



PA if you endured that than more power to you

seriuosly I mean that

that is not fair


thanks for that reply

[turkish]

this is not a pretty little paradise we live in, its a competitive dog eat dog world. You can't be stupid and expect to not pay the price. You can't stay naive for long
Wild capitalism at its finest.

[Patrick Arnold]

if that happened to me it would drive me insane with rage

I just don't knwo what I would do in that one.



PA if you endured that than more power to you

seriuosly I mean that

that is not fair





you are not cut out for business then

you must get in the mindset that if you get screwed, it was only because you were stupid enough to allow yourself to get screwed.

And then when it happens, you move on.

cool heads prevail in life

and the concept of "fair" is for kiddies!!! I loved it when George W. Bush went on about how it was wrong and unfair for athletes to be taking steroids and that it sends the message to kids that winning is more important than how you play the game. Well dubya, did you and your GOP buddies play fairly to get your ass into the white house both times? Did you uphold the same noble standards that you demand of baseball players etc.?


Politicians are the epitomy of cheating and throat cutting and winning at all costs. And then they get on their goddam pulpit and preach to us how terrible it is that our athletes would cut corners to get to the top. jeezus, talk about hypocrisy!!

[highpower1111]

I'm hoping some others with scientific knowledge of ppar upregulation will chime in, but I've been doing some thinking about melting point.

I've noticed that while the hype was overwhelming, results haven't been quite what consumers expected. Some people were particularly upset with the alpha testing by DS, and then others seemed to not respond well to the beta version. This got me thinking, why?

If I'm correct, ppar alpha and beta upregulation leads to an increase in fatty acid oxidation. This should, providing the product has an effect on ppar alpha and/or beta, burn considerably more fat.

However, my understanding is also that increased fatty acid oxidation isn't nearly as effective without a general increase in lipolysis, or the release of fatty acids into the blood stream. This increase in general the result of a low carb diet that depletes glycogen stores, increased cardiovascular activity, and alpha and beta receptor stimulation.

Many of the people who used or are using melting point did not/are not doing cardio or any significance, or following a low carb diet. Nor are they utilizing a alpha/beta receptor agonist like ephedrine, clen, etc. I imagine that the lack of these ancillaries is, at least in part, due to the huge hype surrounding melting point as an "uncoupler" and something that would increase metabolic rate by 25-30%.

I really feel that the true value of this product could be seen when used in conjunction with a low carb diet and regular medium intensity cardio. With release of a great deal of fatty acids into the blood stream, melting point would be free to drastically increase the fatty acid oxidation with a result being a drastic reduction in adipose tissue.

What do you think?


I felt that it was underdosed.

While on MP I first started eating at maintenance, but i was doing a lot of cardio. Fat loss was minimal.

I then upped my dosage to 8 caps and ate at a small defecit of 700 calories, fat loss was slightly higher than it would have ben without the MP, but i am really speculating when i say that because the effect of MP on my fat loss was far from spectacular but there was an increase in fat loss.

I was eating clean.


Basically i was first eating at maintenance and doing a lot of cardio, because if MP does what it claims then i should see fat loss at maintenance because of how much cardio i am doing, correct?

I would love to try MP at a 4x or 5x dosage and see how that works, ut at 4 caps ED, its not cost effective for me. As i increased the dose i noticed more of an effect, so perhaps a 4x or 5x dose of MP could make it the best fat burner out there.
Others probably feel differently about the product, but that is just my opinion on it.

As for a 20-30% increase in metabolic rate... not for me. I would say that i am dissapointed, but i would still say that the product has amazing potential if its dosage is altered.

[highpower1111]

thats all that really matters



But taking a completely synthetic anabolic steroid that was studied and patented long ago (DMT, superdrol) , and then reintroducing it because of a loophole in the law is really not innovative at all. At best you can call it "clever"


That is a very interesting way of putting it.

[CogInTheWheel]

I hope the dosing on melting point works out. That whole DNP metabolic rate increase comparison, along with the uncoupling activity hype, was a really stupid marketing move. You guys pulled a legal gear with that one.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

And then they get on their goddam pulpit and preach to us how terrible it is that our athletes would cut corners to get to the top. jeezus, talk about hypocrisy!!
well that and of course you can combine it with the fact that even the professional sports organizations themselves don't really truly want drugs out of the sport.

[highpower1111]

well that and of course you can combine it with the fact that even the professional sports organizations themselves don't really truly want drugs out of the sport.


Yeah all the increased home run hitting is keeping the dying sport of baseball alive to an extent.

Most people criticize something merely because they do not understand it.

[Patrick Arnold]

well that and of course you can combine it with the fact that even the professional sports organizations themselves don't really truly want drugs out of the sport.

smaller weaker players do not draw crowds

[TheOMEGA]

1)you are not cut out for business then

2) you must get in the mindset that if you get screwed, it was only because you were stupid enough to allow yourself to get screwed.

3) And then when it happens, you move on.

cool heads prevail in life

!


I ignored the political stuff cus well you know how I feel about Dubya, hell the 2 party fixed system in general which mysteriuosly represents -----------------300, 000, 000 people------------. I mean I am for a bit of Elitism but this is ridiculous

1) I have very humble experience but have been battling that one, people at school want me to teach, but thats too safe

2) have been trying to internalize this, no really I have been, especially aboutopening my MOUTH, the enthusiam is seen my others and they just suck it from you no problem or steal it all together if they can

3) realizing that


thanks it was comforting to hear you went through a trial like that and got through

[highpower1111]

smaller weaker players do not draw crowds


*Smaller and weaker players that hit less home runs draw less of a crowd than individuals like Barry Bonds, Sosa, and half of the MLB who were able to gain 30 lbs over a summer.

[Slated]

*Smaller and weaker players that hit less home runs draw less of a crowd than individuals like Barry Bonds, Sosa, and half of the MLB who were able to gain 30 lbs over a summer.
Allow juicing in the MLB and even I would attend.

I was a huge baseball fan growing up, till the strike ( I still have over 100,000 cards in my parents attic (sealed). Now it bores me.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

*Smaller and weaker players that hit less home runs draw less of a crowd than individuals like Barry Bonds, Sosa, and half of the MLB who were able to gain 30 lbs over a summer.
This is true, and John Q Public is of course too dense to figure it out but if they truly wanted drugs out of sport there would obviously be a perma ban on the player instead of a 10 day super neato vacation, errr.... I mean suspension. But of course they give just enough of a punishment to create the illusion to the average dumbass that they are seriously cracking down on this issue. Speaking of dumbasses at baseball games, did you see that kid on the news who wanted to test the saftey net behind home plate?

[highpower1111]

This is true, and John Q Public is of course too dense to figure it out but if they truly wanted drugs out of sport there would obviously be a perma ban on the player instead of a 10 day super neato vacation, errr.... I mean suspension. But of course they give just enough of a punishment to create the illusion to the average dumbass that they are seriously cracking down on this issue. Speaking of dumbasses at baseball games, did you see that kid on the news who wanted to test the saftey net behind home plate?


I am no expert, but it seems like it would not be THAT hard to keep the majority of today's professional baseball players natural.

The thing that makes me sick is when players like Bonds make it obvious and then deny it publically, and that some people still question whether or not a guy like bonds is actually on the juice, when anyone who knows the slightest bit about Test or GH can tell he is obviously a juicer.

I didn't need Canseco's stupid book to tell me Bonds was on juice.

I cant even force myself to watch the World Series, yet alone any MLB game.

The last MLB games i actually enjoyed watching was the Redsox-yankees series because it felt so good to see the yankees lose.

[mack_truck]

would anyone like to hypothesize about how melting point would work if stacked with something like superdrol.
think would effect gains at all? be good like sesathin for lipid levels?
keep you from gaining fat if your body has a tendency to gain fat even if eating very clean? good dosing level to use if using it?

thoughts

[j_neatherlin]

be good like sesathin for lipid levels?yes

keep you from gaining fat if your body has a tendency to gain fat even if eating very clean? yes

[Twin Peak]

Yeah, I would tend to agree. However, these two are not a cost effective combo for most. If you can afford it, have at it. But most would be better served to use your SD when bulking, and your MP when cutting.

I suppose a low dose of MP for the health benefits while on would be helpful, but keep it at 2 caps or so.

[mack_truck]

Yeah, I would tend to agree. However, these two are not a cost effective combo for most. If you can afford it, have at it. But most would be better served to use your SD when bulking, and your MP when cutting.

I suppose a low dose of MP for the health benefits while on would be helpful, but keep it at 2 caps or so.
ok assuming that you could afford it, im guessing your reason for the lower dose is so that you do not compromise muscle gains while on SD.
if that is your reason then i am going to take it that for someone doing a cutting cycle and just looking to maintain or gain a couple of pounds while dropping bodyfat percentage significantly it would be ok.
is my reasoning correct on this or is there another reason to keep the dose low.
Thanks

[uhockey]

ok assuming that you could afford it, im guessing your reason for the lower dose is so that you do not compromise muscle gains while on SD.
if that is your reason then i am going to take it that for someone doing a cutting cycle and just looking to maintain or gain a couple of pounds while dropping bodyfat percentage significantly it would be ok.
is my reasoning correct on this or is there another reason to keep the dose low.
Thanks

That is pretty much correct, but considering the goal while on something like SD is to eat big, lift big, and get big, it seems counterproductive to me to take something like MP which makes you sore and really torches off a lot of those calories you need to grow......

[Twin Peak]

What he said.

[mack_truck]

That is pretty much correct, but considering the goal while on something like SD is to eat big, lift big, and get big, it seems counterproductive to me to take something like MP which makes you sore and really torches off a lot of those calories you need to grow......
thanks that is all i wanted to know.

[Cliff19104]

Yeah, I would tend to agree. However, these two are not a cost effective combo for most. If you can afford it, have at it. But most would be better served to use your SD when bulking, and your MP when cutting.

I suppose a low dose of MP for the health benefits while on would be helpful, but keep it at 2 caps or so.

I would disagree, I just finished running Emax and SD and I think that Melting Point is something that I would not do without while bulking. I am up 20 pounds with no noticeable increase in bodyfat. My last time using SD I gained an inch if not more around the waist. Its not important if Melting Point slows down weight gain as long as muscle gain is not slowed. Plus a few pounds of fat saved while bulking are just as useful as a few pounds lost while cutting.

[nni]

I would disagree, I just finished running Emax and SD and I think that Melting Point is something that I would not do without while bulking. I am up 20 pounds with no noticeable increase in bodyfat. My last time using SD I gained an inch if not more around the waist. Its not important if Melting Point slows down weight gain as long as muscle gain is not slowed. Plus a few pounds of fat saved while bulking are just as useful as a few pounds lost while cutting.

i think you are misunderstanding him, by slowing down weight gain, that includes both muscle and fat gain, ALL weight gain. so it will in fact hinder muscle gains, making it less than ideal for a ph/steroid cycle.

[Cliff19104]

Somewhat, but the impression given by the writeup implies that melting point specifically reduces fat unlike E/C, t3, trimax, etc. I am speaking from my own personal experience. My first 3 weeks, as an ecto-meso, I gained just as much as I did on my first ever 3 week SD run with much less of it being fat.

You don't need Melting Point when bulking, but the increased insulin sensitivity and the ability to keep things lean while cheating more than usual. I started at 2 for 2 weeks, then 4 for 2 weeks and now I will do 7 for 2 weeks b/c I am happy with my gains and am only running prostan now. I will be updating my log soon to give more details.

[Twin Peak]

Somewhat, but the impression given by the writeup implies that melting point specifically reduces fat unlike E/C, t3, trimax, etc. I am speaking from my own personal experience. My first 3 weeks, as an ecto-meso, I gained just as much as I did on my first ever 3 week SD run with much less of it being fat.

You don't need Melting Point when bulking, but the increased insulin sensitivity and the ability to keep things lean while cheating more than usual. I started at 2 for 2 weeks, then 4 for 2 weeks and now I will do 7 for 2 weeks b/c I am happy with my gains and am only running prostan now. I will be updating my log soon to give more details.

Awesome.

As I said, I was talking purely economics, not stating it wouldn't be worthwhile at all.

[uhockey]

Somewhat, but the impression given by the writeup implies that melting point specifically reduces fat unlike E/C, t3, trimax, etc.

To be perfectly honest, both before and since working with DS I thought that writeup was full of ****. I am today on my 2nd to last day of 8 caps a day which I was running to gauge the efficacy of the product and so that I could offer useful personal feedback for the logs we are sponsoring on this board. Without pimping the product, without getting long winded, I will say that these 14 days of MP have been FAT loss. Not weight loss, not decreased strength, but loss of fat and tightening of skin. The sides suck, I'll be the first to admit it, but if you can handle carb cravings and soreness, the product works.

[Robboe]

Awesome.

As I said, I was talking purely economics, not stating it wouldn't be worthwhile at all.

I agree - Cluff's protocol and use is exactly the type of use myself, matt and steve theorised about while i was putting the write-up together.

Melting Point can be used as a very potent recomping tool if used correctly.

[Krzna]

No fatburner has ever worked on me (supplement or gray area stuff). I have never tried DNP. I have yet to try melting point in a dieting situation.
.
All I can say is you must give DNP a shot.... you will be amazed is just an understatement, there is nothing like it, and its sides are nothing in comparision to its results.

[Twin Peak]

There are a few reasons I don't ever want to try DNP.

[Flagg3]

There are a few reasons I don't ever want to try DNP.

Maybe because you want to live?

DNP has a low LD50. That means the dose that makes you lose weight is not much lower than the dose that can kill you!

Other than that, yes it burns fat like nobody's business!! ;)

Flagg

[j_neatherlin]

yeah, dying is the main motivating factor for me to avoid DNP.

a guy who owned a gym up in Iowa, where I used to live, recently passed away. he was a big gear head and used a lot of recreational drugs. from what i understand he was addicted to nubain, pinning tons of tren, and using some kind of weird drug used to induce labor in pigs. anyway, when he died, he had like a 109 degree fever. rumor has it that it was a DNP overdose. i think the official cause of death was kidney failure.

[highpower1111]

To be perfectly honest, both before and since working with DS I thought that writeup was full of ****. I am today on my 2nd to last day of 8 caps a day which I was running to gauge the efficacy of the product and so that I could offer useful personal feedback for the logs we are sponsoring on this board. Without pimping the product, without getting long winded, I will say that these 14 days of MP have been FAT loss. Not weight loss, not decreased strength, but loss of fat and tightening of skin. The sides suck, I'll be the first to admit it, but if you can handle carb cravings and soreness, the product works.


Sounds like you are a big responder, i noticed no sides, no nothing until i got to 8 caps eD, and even then i really did not notice much.

[uhockey]

There are a few reasons I don't ever want to try DNP.

Family.
People you care about.
People who care about you.
The realization that no "ideal" body is worth your life.
A brain.

I'd say those make a good list for most.

[Stuntdawg]

Family.
People you care about.
People who care about you.
The realization that no "ideal" body is worth your life.
A brain.

I'd say those make a good list for most.

Well said.

[dtrain13]

Family.
People you care about.
People who care about you.
The realization that no "ideal" body is worth your life.
A brain.

I'd say those make a good list for most.




Well said.



Indeed.

[Krzna]

Family.
People you care about.
People who care about you.
The realization that no "ideal" body is worth your life.
A brain.

I'd say those make a good list for most.
Agreed. There are things more to life than supplements and bb'ing.
But let me also say that If we all feared the fire, none of us would be able to cook today. Not that I am saying DNP or any other AAS is right or wrong, its just that I think, its lack of knowledge that creates the unknowns, stuff that people fear.

[Twin Peak]

Nothing wrong with that. Its the folks who lack the knowledge, and lack the fear, who get into a world of hurt.