The Tren Thread

[S.C.]

Hey guys,

I have been researching tren a lot recently. The main reason is because I have been recommended it by loads of people for strength gains (which is all that I am interested in).

In terms of strength, what I found out is most people say:

1. Tren
2. Anavar
3. Cheque Drops
4. Anavar
5. Halo

So, obviously, since Tren is not only said to be the most strength gaining steroid, but people literally love it, I decided to do some intense research on it. I first read (literally all) of the threads on tren in another forum, then I read/reread Big Cat's tren profile, and then I searched for tren in this forum and began reading all the threads that I found.

With my research on the other forum, I found most people suggested low doses EOD and warned of possible sides sometimes. I also found many experienced users saying that it was their favourite steroid. But, the sides stayed on my mind, and when I read Big Cat's profile I was suprised to find hims saying that tren was a pretty safe steroid.

But heres where the real problem come in. When I started researching on this forum, I found a thread mentioning the death of somebody (I would rather not name him), and its relation to tren, and trens relation to lung scarring (scar tissue in the lungs). Here all the negative sides came out. People explained the sides clearly, and experienced board vets said that they hated the steroid. I even (on another board) found a vet saying he thought it was an "evil" steroid.

Main sides mentioned:

1. Chronic headaches
2. Insomnia
3. A cough (remmember the lung scar tissue)
4. Possible kidney problems
5. Mind: roid rage, restlessness (extreme)
6. Hair loss

Main benefits mentioned:

1. Strength (apparently through the roof for most people)
2. Lean muscle gain
3. Fat loss (even on bulking diets)

I wanted to start this thread so we could all discuss the steroid, its sides, benefits, what not to do, possible dangers of homebrews (pellets), good producers (as in BD, QV, etc.), differences between the three types of tren, and how to cycle it well.

I hope many people will reply and we can get a lot of info and experience from people. Please don't leave out your opinion, as I wanted to know what everybody's take is on this.

Thanks :),

S.C.

[bluestrm]

Here's a little info from Bask8case

The many faces (names) of Tren: ENDING THE CONFUSION

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been reading about Tren and have found wide spread confusion about it mainly because when one writes "Tren," s/he could be referring to at least 5 different compounds:

1. Trenbolone Acetate--injectable version (Finaject and Finajet)
2. Trenbolone Acetate--pellet form (Finaplix)
3. Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate (called Parabolan by Bill Roberts)
4. Trenbolone Hexahydrobencylcarbonate (called Parabolan on this board and several others)
5. Trenbolone Enanthate

The many names of tren have confused many people. I've seen VETs and MODs and MEMBERs of several boards (not just this one) equate one tren compound with another, not knowing that one is actually not equivalent to the other. One common mistake I see is calling Trenbolone Hexahydrobencylcarbonate "Tren Enanthate." They are similar, but not the same (see below). I also have seen people refer to Tren Acetate as Parabolan--wrong!

So, let's clear this up.

The following is a brief summary of the main differences of each that I have created in order to clear up my own confusion on tren and hopefully help others here in the process. It is not meant to provide a detailed description of Tren activity in the body.

1. Trenbolone Acetate--injectable version (Finaject and Finajet)
This is correctly referred to as "Fina." Finaject is the acetate form of trenbolone. It was produced in a short acting ester (acetate), so its effect lasts only a short time and frequent administration is necessary. Finaject was an injectable steroid of veterinary medicine, which was extremely popular in bodybuilding and powerlifting during the 1980's. The injectible Trenbolone Acetate called Finaject is no longer produced.

(Refer to the end of this post for a discussion of Esters)

2. Trenbolone Acetate--pellet form (Finaplix)
Finaplix was a veterinary cattle implant, which contained the potent androgenic steroid Trenbolone Acetate. Once Finaject and Finajet were nolonger manufactured, bodybuilders began using Finaplix to make topical or injectible versions of Trenbolone Acetate.

Today, cattle implants have become designer products with varied doses and combinations of estrogenic and/or androgenic (trenbolone) agents. So, the process of converting cattle implants to useful versions of trenbolone acetate has become more dificult since one must separate the trenbolone from the other additives present in the cattle implants before using it.

3. Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate (called Parabolan by Bill Roberts)
Parabolan contains a much different ester than Finaject and Finajet, called Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate. This ester extends the activity of trenbolone for more than two weeks, a more suitable design for human use.

The amount of trenbolone in 76 mg of Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate is equivalent to the amount of trenbolone in only 58 mg of Trenbolone Acetate. The acetate is a little more potent, more effective per milligram, because the acetate ester is lighter than the cyclohexylmethylcarbonate ester; therefore a higher percentage of the weight of Trenbolone Acetate is trenbolone. A similar comparison also can be made with the other long lasting esters of trenbolone: enanthate and hexahydrobenzylcarbonate.

The muscle building properties of Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate are the same as Trenbolone Acetate (Finaject or Finajet) except for the longer half-life.

Although it is very similar, this compound is NOT the same as Trenbolone Enanthate. The only difference in these compounds is the esters (see ester definitions below), which all act almost identically (long lasting esters).

4. Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate (called Parabolan on this board and some others)
NOTE: At the time of this post this compound name was spelled wrong (hexahydrobencylcarbonate) in the steroid profiles. The correct spelling is listed above.
Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate and Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate are exatly the same substances. Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate ester is just another name for cyclohexylmethylcarbonate ester.

5. Trenbolone Enanthate
Although it is very similar, this compound is NOT the same as Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate (Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate). The only difference in these compounds is the esters (see ester definitions below).


THE DIFFERNCE BETWEEN THE ESTERS

The most important difference between the esters is wheter it is a short acting ester or a long lasting ester. The next most important difference is the weight of the ester. As mentioned under the Trenbolone Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate section (above), the relative potency of each ester of trenbolone is parially dependent on the weight of its ester.

The main difference between different esters is simply the number of carbon atoms in the ester. Propionate has three carbons, acetate has two, isobutyrate has four, enanthate has seven, cypionate has eight, and decanoate has ten. More unusual esters, such as cyclohexylmethylcarbonate (used in Parabolan) has eight carbons and one more oxygen than the above esters making it the heaviest.

Therefore, the esters of trenbolone in order of potency when compared miligram to miligram (from most potent to least):
1. Tren Acetate
2. Tren Enanthate
3. Tren Cyclohexylmethylcarbonate (Tren Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate)

The differences in potency caused by the esters are negligible. So, you should base your choice of Tren on how frequently you plan to inject, how much you trust your supplier, and how much you trust the brand of tren you purchase.

If you are concerned about the possible side effects of tren, and don't mind frequent injections, then consider using Trenbolone Acetate. If bad side effects manifest, Tren Acetate will quickly leave your body after the last injection due to the short acting ester (acetate); and your body will be able to begin to recover quickly. On the contrary, your recovery from bad side effects won't begin until 2 weeks after the last injection of a long lasting ester of tren because a long lasting ester of tren will stay active in your body for more than two weeks after your last injection--continuing to contribute to the bad side effects.

LEARN MORE ABOUT CATTLE IMPLANTS HERE:
http://extension.usu.edu/files/agpubs/ag509.pdf

[S.C.]

Thank you for the great post blue, this should clear some confusion :).

Another topic to discuss: The only reason we prefer homebrewing pellets (for acetate) is because it gets out of our bodies faster? I mean, does the potency difference matter enough?

The reason I ask, is I see a huge number of people homebrewing pellets to make injectable acetate instead of using parabolan or enanthate.

[Rider19]

Good Thread,

I also have been researching tren for awhile now ever since I heard Fullybuilt and other veteran members of our forum loving it. Its weird, first I heard tren was the devil and stay away, then I heard God was on Tren when he created the Earth :D

After lots of research, I found out that Tren COUGH was mostly related to the ester found in tren. With Tren Ace people would cough as injecting and throughout, b/c they were having a reaction to the ester.

This is NOT the case with Tren Enanthate. People have reported that they don't cough while using this type of steroid. Tren ace is not for human consumption of course, but tren enan, closely related to Para, was made for humans in the past. That could be why people are started to like enan better than ace eventhough enan usage is still rather "new".

When using enan, one would have to be concerned about the sides as they wouldn't dissipitate within a day or two after injection as they would when using ace. I feel, one shouldn't go to high in dosage with enan in order to control sides. Perhaps, 150mg on mon and 150mg on thurs=300ml per week would be more suitable for tren users, at least the newbie tren users ;).

I read lots of people get aggressive with tren. Maybe this rage isn't "ALL" due to the steroid. Maybe its a combination of all the sides which creates the rage. Perhaps that lack of sleep and restlessness every night for weeks (insomnia), night sweats, having headaches and constant injections daily would all contribute to a person feeling the rage. Hell, having those symptoms daily for weeks would be enough to put me in a chronic state of anger even if I wasn't using tren :)

[S.C.]

Thanks for the information Rider :).

In one of the threads I read here, the people on the thread were trying to determine whether the cough was because of the short ester, therefore they kept asking if people got the cough from enanthate. Sadly, nobody replied.

This seems to solve the problem (in theory). That the coughs (which seem very dangerous due to scar tissue in the lungs) do not occur with enanthate. Therefore, enanthate seems the way to go. Only problem is it takes so long to get out of ones system.

In terms of results: do the benefits (I mean; strength, lower body fat level, muscle gain) of acetate put enanthate to shame? Or are they both equally effective in that strict sense?

Of course, we have to keep in mind the other "supposed" serious side effect is kidney damage. Any more information on that?

Sorry, I realize there are a lot of questions lol. I want to know everything there is to know about tren :).

Thanks for the post again rider (solved a lot of my worries about scar tissue).

[budddavid]

I love tren, i have only ued ace so i can not compare it to enth. I have only had a couple episodes of tren cough, which i spretty good since i was doing ED injections for 8 weeks.

[BOZZ]

good read for newbies so BUMP




bOZz

[Rider19]

yeah, it takes an about an extra two weeks two get out of one's system.

-tren enan seems the way to go to avoid that dreaded tren cough, and daily injects.

-I think that the sides would be the same between tren ace and enan, kidney damage shouldn't happen as long as one doesn't abuse tren along with any steroid for that matter. I think one would be fine if he gets his blood check and makes sure to take his blood pressure daily throughout usage. Try to get a homeade machine to check blood pressure, its a major issue when considering tren use.

Considering the extra two weeks that tren stays in the system, I originally thought that running test prop for 10 weeks and tren e for 8 weeks would be good, but thats a long time to have tren in one's body. Perhaps this cycle would be more suitable for a first time user, what do you guys think:

Summer Lean Mass Cycle:

Test prop-10 weeks/450mg a week
Tren enan--6 weeks/300mg a week
Anavar--Starting at week 4/40mg a day

[S.C.]

I thought I would post the direct link to Big Cat's profile on tren, to save people time (in getting to it), and also because some newbies will be looking for the word "tren" on the list and it isn't there (listed under "Finaplix").

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catfinaplix.htm

Props to Big Cat for his great profiles.

[Rider19]

Awesome S.C,

I remember some more things about tren ace to contribute:

With tren ace people have a choice to inject every day or every other day. After careful research, I've read people have reported better results injecting every day and also by doing it this way it'll keep your blood levels more staple rather then injecting every other day which would make blood levels spike up then dip down throwing your body into CHAOS after awhile leading to more bad tren side effects.

So in conclusion, if you decide to go with tren ace, one would have to definately consider injecting everyday rather then EOD in order to keep side effects to a minimal. Recommened dosage of ed use would be 50mg a every day to stay on the safe side :) One may go to 75, but beware if those sides, more isn't always better, especially with tren.

[S.C.]

yeah, it takes an about an extra two weeks two get out of one's system.

-tren enan seems the way to go to avoid that dreaded tren cough, and daily injects.

-I think that the sides would be the same between tren ace and enan, kidney damage shouldn't happen as long as one doesn't abuse tren along with any steroid for that matter. I think one would be fine if he gets his blood check and makes sure to take his blood pressure daily throughout usage. Try to get a homeade machine to check blood pressure, its a major issue when considering tren use.

Considering the extra two weeks that tren stays in the system, I originally thought that running test prop for 10 weeks and tren e for 8 weeks would be good, but thats a long time to have tren in one's body. Perhaps this cycle would be more suitable for a first time user, what do you guys think:

Summer Lean Mass Cycle:

Test prop-10 weeks/450mg a week
Tren enan--6 weeks/300mg a week
Anavar--Starting at week 4/40mg a day


1. I definately agree about the blood pressure. It sure is a must to have it regularly checked (monitor it throughout the cycle).

2. Concerning the cycle: I would limit the tren to 4 weeks, just seems safer to me. I think 6 weeks is a long time, keeping in mind it would stay in your system till the 8th week. Most people adviced (although about acetate) to keep it in the 4 week range for best results with minimal side effects. In fact, some people particularly stated that they noticed bad side effects coming on at the 6 week range (and this will be in your system till the 8th week). Just my $0.02 though.

If anybody else has used it please tell us of your experiences, bad and good :), and any opinions/comments you may have.

[S.C.]

Awesome S.C,

I remember some more things about tren ace to contribute:

With tren ace people have a choice to inject every day or every other day. After careful research, I've read people have reported better results injecting every day and also by doing it this way it'll keep your blood levels more staple rather then injecting every other day which would make blood levels spike up then dip down throwing your body into CHAOS after awhile leading to more bad tren side effects.

So in conclusion, if you decide to go with tren ace, one would have to definately consider injecting everyday rather then EOD in order to keep side effects to a minimal. Recommened dosage of ed use would be 50mg a every day to stay on the safe side :) One may go to 75, but beware if those sides, more isn't always better, especially with tren.

Good point to raise Rider (about injecting every other day). I agree thoroughly about the dosages (I think over 75 is too risky - but I know some very advanced users do it).

[Superus]

Dosing?

Tren EN Vs. Tren ACE

So you take 300MG of Tren EN how much is that of Tren ACE?

I read 500MG is good if you want to get any Tren from EN.

[Rider19]

Dosing?

Tren EN Vs. Tren ACE

So you take 300MG of Tren EN how much is that of Tren ACE?

I read 500MG is good if you want to get any Tren from EN.

Tren Ace- 50mg every day=350mg a week. Beware mg for mg ace is stronger then enan because of the different ester attached.

Tren Enan-I'm aware it'll be 300mg a week and that its weaker than ace, but I'm more concerned of the overall side effects which would be difficult to control when on enan do to the reasons stated above. I don't want to be 3 weeks into the cycle and realize that I'm getting to many negative side effects, they'r would be nothing for me to do, and I'll be ****ed for the next couple of weeks. Its harder to control side effects with enan then it is ace. Also note, you might be thinking of test. 500mg of tren enan?!!bro I don't know where you heard that you must do that in order to get any benefit from tren, but no offense, that's alot, you'll definately be feeling that plus you'll be screwed when side effects occur, and THEY WILL HAPPEN!!! too much to handle imho for a newbie to tren.

Wtfrudoing(VETERAN) advices only 200mg a week of tren enan, to minimize side effects, imho thats a bit to low, I feel 300mg is sufficient to keep sides to a minimal while feeling the most out of it.
When increasing the dosage of tren, it doesn't make you stronger, it'll just make you feel more sides. It's not like other roids where you could keep uping the dose as you'd like, ONE MUST RESPECT TREN, ONE OF THE MOST BODY CHANGING ROID IN EXISTANCE!!!

[S.C.]

When increasing the dosage of tren, it doesn't make you stronger, it'll just make you feel more sides. It's not like other roids where you could keep uping the dose as you'd like, ONE MUST RESPECT TREN, ONE OF THE MOST BODY CHANGING ROID IN EXISTANCE!!!

Very, very true. Newbies should be very careful with their dosages and with how long they run it. This isn't test, becareful with how you handle it.

[bullydog]

Good Thread,

I also have been researching tren for awhile now ever since I heard Fullybuilt and other veteran members of our forum loving it. Its weird, first I heard tren was the devil and stay away, then I heard God was on Tren when he created the Earth :D

After lots of research, I found out that Tren COUGH was mostly related to the ester found in tren. With Tren Ace people would cough as injecting and throughout, b/c they were having a reaction to the ester.

This is NOT the case with Tren Enanthate. People have reported that they don't cough while using this type of steroid. Tren ace is not for human consumption of course, but tren enan, closely related to Para, was made for humans in the past. That could be why people are started to like enan better than ace eventhough enan usage is still rather "new".

When using enan, one would have to be concerned about the sides as they wouldn't dissipitate within a day or two after injection as they would when using ace. I feel, one shouldn't go to high in dosage with enan in order to control sides. Perhaps, 150mg on mon and 150mg on thurs=300ml per week would be more suitable for tren users, at least the newbie tren users ;).

I read lots of people get aggressive with tren. Maybe this rage isn't "ALL" due to the steroid. Maybe its a combination of all the sides which creates the rage. Perhaps that lack of sleep and restlessness every night for weeks (insomnia), night sweats, having headaches and constant injections daily would all contribute to a person feeling the rage. Hell, having those symptoms daily for weeks would be enough to put me in a chronic state of anger even if I wasn't using tren :)

I've heard different. I heard that people thought it was impurities in the filler/binding agents of the pellets most people use to make tren. When you do the dissolve -> coffee filter -> add oil method, you still end up with a lot of the crap in your solution so this might be the cause of tren cough. A lot of people also said it's due to your body trying to get rid of excessive BA.

I made tren using the crystal fina method, and used 3% BA 20% BB in my mixture. I'm finishing up my cycle tomorrow, and I have experienced NO "Fina Cough", nor have the my two friends that are on the same batch. I don't get a weird taste in my mouth either. The acetate ester could very well be the reason for tren cough, but I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't occur with everyone, and it seems like making crystal tren vastly reduces the occurence of it.

[Rider19]

I've heard different. I heard that people thought it was impurities in the filler/binding agents of the pellets most people use to make tren. When you do the dissolve -> coffee filter -> add oil method, you still end up with a lot of the crap in your solution so this might be the cause of tren cough. A lot of people also said it's due to your body trying to get rid of excessive BA.

I made tren using the crystal fina method, and used 3% BA 20% BB in my mixture. I'm finishing up my cycle tomorrow, and I have experienced NO "Fina Cough", nor have the my two friends that are on the same batch. I don't get a weird taste in my mouth either. The acetate ester could very well be the reason for tren cough, but I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't occur with everyone, and it seems like making crystal tren vastly reduces the occurence of it.
yeah, people are still trying to figure out what causes tren cough. My thoughts were just a hypothesis :) You may be correct also. Good info.

[S.C.]

Either way though, enanthate should be safe. We can't really determine the cause unless there are real studies out there, and we don't have any (since acetate was not made for humans it was never tested on humans, therefore no research. In fact, the mods here spent a long time researching this issue (on another thread) and they only had one piece of information by the end.

size:
"I searched all night for FDA studies and the only thing i could find was info on cattle."

gimp:
"All in all, after about 20 hours of research, I can not find even one piece of evidence that barely implies tren causes lung damage."

And the only study they found was found by size:

A study for everybody.


Key result-> "From this extensive battery of data, and also taking into account published data on trenbolone, it is concluded that 17-alpha-hydroxytrenbolone and 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone are devoid of genotoxic activity and are not initiators of cancer."


Arch Toxicol. 1988;61(4):249-58. Related Articles, Links
The genotoxicity of trenbolone, a synthetic steroid.
Richold M.
Huntingdon Research Centre, Cambs, England.

Trenbolone, a synthetic androgen is used as a growth promotant in animal husbandry. Because of its steroidal structure and properties it has been extensively evaluated in a series of in vitro and in vivo assays to assess its genotoxic and initiating properties. Both the parent molecule 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone and its metabolite 17-alpha-hydroxy-trenbolone, produced only in cattle, have been tested. 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone was not genotoxic in the Ames Salmonella/microsome assay, cytogenetics assays in human lymphocytes and CHO cells, a micronucleus assay in CHO cells, a DNA repair synthesis assay in HeLa cells, mammalian cell mutation assays with CHO and V79 cells, the mouse micronucleus assay, rat bone marrow or spermatogonial cytogenetics assays or in a test for initiators in the rat. In the mouse lymphoma cell mutation assay with L 5178Y TK+/- cells, equivocal responses were obtained, particularly at highly toxic concentrations. With 17-alpha-hydroxy-trenbolone a weak positive response was obtained in the L5178Y Tk +/- assay, particularly at highly toxic concentrations. Negative results were obtained in the Ames Salmonella/microsome assay, the cytogenetics assays using both human lymphocytes in vitro and rat bone marrow in vivo, the DNA repair assay and in the CHO mammalian cell mutation assay. It was also negative in the in vivo test for initiators. From this extensive battery of data, and also taking into account published data on trenbolone, it is concluded that 17-alpha-hydroxytrenbolone and 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone are devoid of genotoxic activity and are not initiators of cancer.

Now if somebody could translate this to English, we would understand :).

[Rider19]

good researching bro, its been awhile since the mods last made their conclusions about tren, hopefully when they see this thread, they could comment further on what they came up with throughout the progression of time since their last post about this subject. :cool:

[delicousmeathed]

I ran tren ace homebrew at 75mgs eod day last summer stacked with 300mgs/week of EQ and had great results. I have been off it since the end of August and have only lost about 6lbs.

One problem i did have with it was in week 3 I developed a poison ivy like rash all over my arms. I did some research and several other ppl on the board had mentioned this as a side of tren and told me to get benedryl. I took the pills for 2 days and used the cream for about a week and it went away and never came back. I would def recomend this if you see any rash like that forming.

Other than that I had no problems.

Another thing was that my source for the EQ promised but didnt come through on any post cycle meds, but by the time he told me he wasnt getting them i was already on week 3 and just went along with the cycle anyway (dumb idea). It actually worked out fine though because I had no post cycle sides probably due to the low aromatization rate of the tren and EQ.

Anyways just my tren ace experiance

[genepool]

Key result-> "From this extensive battery of data, and also taking into account published data on trenbolone, it is concluded that 17-alpha-hydroxytrenbolone and 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone are devoid of genotoxic activity and are not initiators of cancer."


Arch Toxicol. 1988;61(4):249-58. Related Articles, Links
The genotoxicity of trenbolone, a synthetic steroid.
Richold M.
Huntingdon Research Centre, Cambs, England.

Trenbolone, a synthetic androgen is used as a growth promotant in animal husbandry. Because of its steroidal structure and properties it has been extensively evaluated in a series of in vitro and in vivo assays to assess its genotoxic and initiating properties. Both the parent molecule 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone and its metabolite 17-alpha-hydroxy-trenbolone, produced only in cattle, have been tested. 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone was not genotoxic in the Ames Salmonella/microsome assay, cytogenetics assays in human lymphocytes and CHO cells, a micronucleus assay in CHO cells, a DNA repair synthesis assay in HeLa cells, mammalian cell mutation assays with CHO and V79 cells, the mouse micronucleus assay, rat bone marrow or spermatogonial cytogenetics assays or in a test for initiators in the rat. In the mouse lymphoma cell mutation assay with L 5178Y TK+/- cells, equivocal responses were obtained, particularly at highly toxic concentrations. With 17-alpha-hydroxy-trenbolone a weak positive response was obtained in the L5178Y Tk +/- assay, particularly at highly toxic concentrations. Negative results were obtained in the Ames Salmonella/microsome assay, the cytogenetics assays using both human lymphocytes in vitro and rat bone marrow in vivo, the DNA repair assay and in the CHO mammalian cell mutation assay. It was also negative in the in vivo test for initiators. From this extensive battery of data, and also taking into account published data on trenbolone, it is concluded that 17-alpha-hydroxytrenbolone and 17-beta-hydroxy-trenbolone are devoid of genotoxic activity and are not initiators of cancer.

Now if somebody could translate this to English, we would understand :).
ha.. basically what they did what take cell culture line and subject them to high levels of tren and try to observe genetic damage.. i am familiar with some of the cell lines they used.. at one point i worked in cell/tissue culture and dealt with the assays they used.. this basically proved a point that tren does not cause cancer in either white blood cells(lymphocytes).. or gonadal cell or uterine cells(HeLa). they could not find evidence that they caused genetic mutations that would cause cancer! steroids once again are exonerated from causing cancer

[mj151]

subscribed - sorry, no experience to contribute at this time...

[XFactor]

Dosing?

Tren EN Vs. Tren ACE

So you take 300MG of Tren EN how much is that of Tren ACE?

I read 500MG is good if you want to get any Tren from EN.


I'd really suggest you either drop that dose of enanthate or run ace for your first tren cycle. If you have bad sides on that much enanthate you are screwed for 3 weeks or more. I think I'm going to even say for tren first time users should just stay away from enanthate. People uncomfortable with eod shots shouldn't be using tren anyway most likely. Even though enanthate comes in and goes out slower than ace, it's easy for newbies to want to up the dose too much to see results sooner.

This is one of the roids thay can be harmful if your BP got too high too fast or for too long. I know how hard that stuff hit me, so just be careful...

[bluestrm]

Tren - Fat Burning and "Fina Cough" both from prostaglandin metabolization

WRITTEN BY PHEEDNO @ AR

It's been widely disussed of Trens fat burning properties through rises in IGF and Prostaglandins. While IGF is a fairly well known substance in the bodybuilding world today, prostaglandins are fairly unknown in terms of formation and roles in the body.
So below, a brief dicription of prostoglandins and their role in fat burning, "fina cough", and why a person going through Tren administration can experience it's fat burning effects without the dreaded "Cough"

The term prostaglandin comes from the word-Prostate. The first prostoglandins were first dicovered in semen about the mid 1930's and it was thought that prostaglandins were made from the prostate. Since this time, it has been dicovered that most prostaglandins are not even constructed in the prostate.

Prostaglandins are made by two different pathways(Cyclooxygenase and Lipoxygenase), and considering prostaglandins are a group of about 20 lipid cells, they have contrary function; responsible for stimulating as well as alleviating inflammation(Inflammation stimulation is the rapid metabolism of them expelled through the bronchials), regulate blood flow to particular organs, control ion transport across membranes, modulate synaptic transmission, induce sleep, mediate lipid release, and regulate metabolism is various tissue.

Prostaglandins are synthesized from arachidonate(Lipoxygenase which catalyze the dioxygenation of polyunsaturated fatty acids) in the cell membrane by the action of phospholipase A2. Cyclooxygenase and lipoxygenase pathways, compete with one another to form prostaglandins(as well as thromboxane or leukotriene-leukotriene being a bronchial stimulator),
In the cyclooxygenase pathway, the prostaglandins D, E and F plus thromboxane and prostacyclin are made. Thromboxanes are made in platelets and cause constriction of vascular smooth muscle and platelet aggregation
Leukotrienes are made in leukocytes and macrophages via the lipoxygenase pathway. They are potent constrictors of the bronchial airways. They are also important in inflammation and hypersensitivity reactions as they increase vascular permeability.

Being that prostaglandins from either pathway, are still fatty acids of a group, they mediate lipid release and controll tissue metabolization, so fat burning is a luxerry of either pathway of formation. It's the pathway from which they are constructed that dictates "fina cough". As prostaglandins made from the Cyclooxygenase pathway dictate muscle constriction and platlet aggregation, and the Lipoxygenase pathway dictates bronchial constriction(the main form of expulsion)


Refs:
Cackatoo Press
Columbia Encyclopedia 6th Edition
Science Daily Magazine

[S.C.]

Thanks for the great replies guys, keep them coming :).

I can understand why one would recommend acetate to a newbie, but I am also weary of the dreaded scar tissue and tren cough, which according to Rider does not come from enanthate. If it wasn't for this cough, nobody would want to use enanthate in the first place anyway! The advantages of a short ester are overwhelming, but we are trying to comprehend the negative effects of it, which also seem to be lurking around.

Thanks for the article blue, though I will have to read it again to comprehend it fully. I suggest people who post scientific research/articles should briefly summarize them at the end, for the newbies who do not comprehend. Wouldn't want them to miss out ;).

Mods, what are your opinions and experiences? What have you guys learnt since the last discussions on this mysterious drug? What are your preferred dosages for newbies and advanced users? What do you like to stack tren with for lean mass cycles, cutting cycles, or strength cycles? I would be honoured if you would all post in the thread. I would love to learn from your experiences, and also to have all your opinions about tren in one big tren thread.

S.C.

[Big-Golden]

If it wasn't for this cough, nobody would want to use enanthate in the first place anyway!

ED or EOD injects of ace makes enanthate appealing.


I have done tren in my first 3 cycles. I only had the cough a couple of times. But I've also coughed the same way with Test Prop once. I think its from getting a little oil in your blood stream, which travels to your lungs and causes the cough.

[bluestrm]

The best advantage that Acetate has over Enanthate is that when the sides start coming on, if you have to, you can drop the Tren out of the cycle and they subside faster. Where as with Enanthate, you have to wait longer for the Tren to clear out.

There are plenty of ancillaries to combat the sides, but for some, it is unbearable. Progesterone and prolactin are not hormones that you want to sit around and let subside. Get yourself some Cabergoline or at least Bromo to lower the prolactin levels.
That is another thing, prolactin is what causes sexual disfunction. It is an estrogen like hormone. It inhibits sexual desire and function in men and women. So it is vital (if you have a significant other) to not allow the prolactin to ruin the fun!

[S.C.]

ED or EOD injects of ace makes enanthate appealing.

I guess that would get old after a while.


I have done tren in my first 3 cycles. I only had the cough a couple of times. But I've also coughed the same way with Test Prop once. I think its from getting a little oil in your blood stream, which travels to your lungs and causes the cough.

Interesting hypothesis. I think it seems likely, but what does this have to do with scar tissue in the lungs (although it is not proven, I think it is likely that the tren causes the scar tissue).

EDIT: To clarify, I mean how would this hypothesis explain the scar tissue in the lungs? Would the oil cause it?

[S.C.]

That is another thing, prolactin is what causes sexual disfunction. It is an estrogen like hormone. It inhibits sexual desire and function in men and women. So it is vital (if you have a significant other) to not allow the prolactin to ruin the fun!

Doesn't cycling it with test combat this?

[bluestrm]

Doesn't cycling it with test combat this?
Well, Test increases libido. But controlling Prolactin and progesterone is a good idea as well. It has an impact on your HPTA. And if you levels are lower, then recovery is that much easier when it is time for PCT.

The prolactin can casue the dreaded nipple secretions as well.

[S.C.]

Well, Test increases libido. But controlling Prolactin and progesterone is a good idea as well. It has an impact on your HPTA. And if you levels are lower, then recovery is that much easier when it is time for PCT.

The prolactin can casue the dreaded nipple secretions as well.
And there is the ever so controversial progesterone induced gyno.

Woah. You are saying not using this product can cause nipple secretions and gyno, or the use of this product can cause them?

What dosages and timings do you recommend? What are the products names in order of the most desirable one?

Thanks for your responses blue and adding so much to the thread :).

[bluestrm]

Everyone has progesterone receptors. Some just have a higher number of the receptors than others. But if Prolactin levels get too high, then yes, secretions can occur. And if you start to notice signs of gyno, do not hesitate. Jump on some Nolva! And do something about the prolactin levels.


In order of effectiveness (my opinion) for alleviating Prolactin levels.
Cabergoline-as little as .25mg every 4 days

Bromo-1/2 a tab in the morning after a meal, then 1/2 later in the day after a meal. (after meal and split up to cut down on feeling sick!)

Vitamin B6- in the range of 400-600mg per day. 200 twice per day to prevent levels getting high, and 300mg twice per day to alleviate high levels.

[bluestrm]

Info on the B6.
Very good read.
Originally posted on AR by Pheedno.


Suppression of Lactation:

When the mother chooses not to breast feed or the baby is lost, suppression of lactation may be required. Initially the breasts get engorged, however in the absence of suckling further milk production stops on its own. Firm support to the breasts is helpful in reducing the discomfort. Manual expression is not very helpful as it promotes further milk secretion. Estrogens in high doses can suppress lactation, however there are side effects and the risk of venous thrombosis, hence these are not recommended. Bromocryptine, a dopamine agonist, given 2.5 mg twice a day for 14 days can suppress lactation by producing a fall in prolactin levels. This therapy is expensive, has side effects and there may be rebound lactation once the drug is stopped. FDA no longer approves it. Pyridoxine – Vitamin B6, given 200 mg three times a day for 5-7 days is quite effective in suppressing lactation and the drug has no side effects.
================================================
Got Wood? note : adding Bromo to your cycle only adds to the potential anabolic cascade, and potentially negative drug interactions. In medicine B6 is supposed to be as effective as Bromo. Plus vitamin B6 has few side effects.
Here are a few of many studies supporting the use of Vitamin B6 in reducing prolactin:
======================================
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6


Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.

Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.

A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.

===============================
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5

Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.

Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.

=====================================
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8

[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]

[Article in Italian]

Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.

The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove.

[S.C.]

Thanks for the very useful information and good read.

When should one begin to administer the [things] that you mentioned above? Is it on sight of gyno? I mean, I understand the reason for the administration of it, but what signs should one look for?

[XFactor]

Thanks for the very useful information and good read.

When should one begin to administer the [things] that you mentioned above? Is it on sight of gyno? I mean, I understand the reason for the administration of it, but what signs should one look for?


Most likely you'll just need to have some nolva on hand for gyno, and yes you should always start treating it as soon as you notice its symptoms.

If you were to run something like:

500 mgs test/wk for ten weeks
75 mgs tren ace eod for 6 weeks
+ hardy PCT
could add winny 50mgs/day for weeks 7-end of test effects.

You 'probably' wouldn't have the "potential" side effects Bluestorm is educating you about. It's excellent info by the way, just a little in depth for you. I'd suggest you try to understand all of it clearly before you start anything.

[S.C.]

Most likely you'll just need to have some nolva on hand for gyno, and yes you should always start treating it as soon as you notice its symptoms.

What I was wondering were whether the symtoms of the prolactin problems were just gyno, or other symptoms? I mean, at what sign should I start taking these [things]? I was thinking gyno + libido problems, but I would like a more detailed answer for me and whoever may read this thread in their research in the future :) - just to make sure.


If you were to run something like:

500 mgs test/wk for ten weeks
75 mgs tren ace eod for 6 weeks
+ hardy PCT
could add winny 50mgs/day for weeks 7-end of test effects.


Sounds good, although I agree with Rider that ED sounds better at a lighter dosage, maybe 30-40 mgs for a beginner? I actually think we should have a thorough discussion outlining possible cycles in the future of the thread, blueprints basically.


You 'probably' wouldn't have the "potential" side effects Bluestorm is educating you about. It's excellent info by the way, just a little in depth for you. I'd suggest you try to understand all of it clearly before you start anything.

Of course X, that's what I am doing. I would not consider going into this without knowing of these issues :).

S.C.

[bluestrm]

With Tren, run the B6 from the start at the low dose to be on the safe side. It is extremely cheap! Have Nolva on hand and if you don't have a source that can send your stuff in 2 days, have some Bromo on hand.
I never had lactation, but those that have make it sound like you have to squeeze the nipple to get anything out.
For me, if my nipples ever felt anything other than how they normally do, I'd start some Nolva up. If I noticed lactation, I'd start some Bromo. I mention Bromo the most, because compared to Cabergoline, it is way cheaper!

Cabergoline is not cheap, but it is extremely great! It works really great for PCT as well, but most will not use it for that. It upregulates HPTA really good.

[S.C.]

Thanks for the advice blue! :). How much of a low dosage of B6 do you think should be used throughout the cycle (to be on the safe side)?

[Radio]

How does tren have negative effects on the kidneys more than other steroids? Is the kidney issues not just a high blood pressure problem? What i mean is if the gear your on gives you high blood pressure then this can damage the kidneys? Is tren even worse?

[S.C.]

How does tren have negative effects on the kidneys more than other steroids? Is the kidney issues not just a high blood pressure problem? What i mean is if the gear your on gives you high blood pressure then this can damage the kidneys? Is tren even worse?

I'd like to know more about this myself. What's with tren and kidney issues guys?

[Blown00Mustang]

With Tren, run the B6 from the start at the low dose to be on the safe side. It is extremely cheap! Have Nolva on hand and if you don't have a source that can send your stuff in 2 days, have some Bromo on hand.
I never had lactation, but those that have make it sound like you have to squeeze the nipple to get anything out.
For me, if my nipples ever felt anything other than how they normally do, I'd start some Nolva up. If I noticed lactation, I'd start some Bromo. I mention Bromo the most, because compared to Cabergoline, it is way cheaper!

Cabergoline is not cheap, but it is extremely great! It works really great for PCT as well, but most will not use it for that. It upregulates HPTA really good.
What kind of places sell cabergoline and bromo? I can't say I've ever seen it on a product list.

[MurphMan]

What kind of places sell cabergoline and bromo? I can't say I've ever seen it on a product list.

I've seen it listed at P&P.

[dirty hands]

im on a tren, test, and winny cycle right now, and have been using b6 at 600mg ed. i gotta thank bluestrm on the cabergoline info. i searched for awhile and couldnt find any info on how to run it. i dont want to switch this to a gyno thread, god knows we got enough of those, but if you are lactating is the liquid clear? if i squeeze my nipple extremely hard i get a pin sized dot of clear liquid...so i order some cabergoline or continue with the b6?

[MurphMan]

im on a tren, test, and winny cycle right now, and have been using b6 at 600mg ed. i gotta thank bluestrm on the cabergoline info. i searched for awhile and couldnt find any info on how to run it. i dont want to switch this to a gyno thread, god knows we got enough of those, but if you are lactating is the liquid clear? if i squeeze my nipple extremely hard i get a pin sized dot of clear liquid...so i order some cabergoline or continue with the b6?

I've had that happen even before I had juiced. I wonder if that is normal, I mean how many dudes squeeze their nips to see if liquid will come out unless they are juicing? :confused: You should ask one of your buddies that doesn't juice to see if it happens when he does it. Just make sure he isn't gay! :D

[size]

Stay away from bromo. It is a nasty/dangerous drug that people are too quick to use. Nolvadex is an effective aid against prolactin


Tamoxifen inhibits prolactin signal transduction in ER - NOG-8 mammary epithelial cells.
Das R, Vonderhaar BK.
Laboratory of Tumor Immunology and Biology, National Cancer Institute

Tamoxifen (TAM), an antiestrogen, also acts as an antilactogen in mammary cells. In the present study we analyze the effect of TAM on the signal transduction pathway for prolactin (Prl). TAM bound specifically to NOG-8, an estrogen receptor-negative mammary cell line. Within 5 min of Prl treatment, raf-1, MEK and MAP kinase were induced 2-3-fold over the control level. TAM completely inhibited this Prl-induced activation of kinases as well as Prl binding and cell growth. These results indicate the potential role of TAM as an antilactogen in Prl responsive systems.

[S.C.]

Stay away from bromo. It is a nasty/dangerous drug that people are too quick to use. Nolvadex is an effective aid against prolactin


Seems to me that the best thing to do is use vitamin B6 throughout the cycle and have nolva at hand incase anything happens and as PCT. What do you think size?

None of the other mods/vets have any comments about tren?

S.C.

[Radio]

Whats trens effects on the prostate? Iv only been on tren for just over a week and im feel a strange twinge around that area. Is it worth talking proscar with tren ?I ran it with my test cycles. Iv also got saw pallmetto.

[peregrine]

would be nice sticky

[TheOak86*]

I've had that happen even before I had juiced. I wonder if that is normal, I mean how many dudes squeeze their nips to see if liquid will come out unless they are juicing? :confused: You should ask one of your buddies that doesn't juice to see if it happens when he does it. Just make sure he isn't gay! :D

Its completely normal for men to sometimes lactate through the nipples. I remember reading about it on these forums or over on EF. If I find the link ill post it here.

Bumping this thread because I would also like to know the finer points of tren since i have a Test E, Tren A and Winny cycle coming up.

Good info so far!

[S.C.]

We kinda skipped the kidney issues guys: anybody got any information/opinions on that? I often find people bashing tren about kidney sides...

:)

S.C.

[Big-Golden]

We kinda skipped the kidney issues guys: anybody got any information/opinions on that? I often find people bashing tren about kidney sides...

The last 2 times I ran tren, my lower-rear sides ( kidney area ) started hurting after the 5 to 6 week mark. It could just be in my head.
While on tren, my urine was very dark, almost orange in color. As soon as I would stop tren ( and continue with test ), my urine would return back to normal.

[S.C.]

The last 2 times I ran tren, my lower-rear sides ( kidney area ) started hurting after the 5 to 6 week mark. It could just be in my head.
While on tren, my urine was very dark, almost orange in color. As soon as I would stop tren ( and continue with test ), my urine would return back to normal.

That's terrible news. Has anything like this happened to anyone else here?

[user4694231324]

I see everyone cutting tren 2 weeks before test ends to get a better pct and recover better. I am going to run tren/prop for 10 weeks together EOD 75mg/100mg. Is 10 weeks too long for 1st time user of tren? What is so bad about tren, about being so strong and so on? All you do is inject and live daily life until its over. Some people are like scared of the aas. I cant cut the tren short, since its mixed together. I want to run both for 10 weeks and winny at 55mg a day starting week 6 until 10. This will be a lean mass cycle. I have nolvadex for pct and 10mg ed throughout cycle. Cant get hcg.

[MurphMan]

I see everyone cutting tren 2 weeks before test ends to get a better pct and recover better. I am going to run tren/prop for 10 weeks together EOD 75mg/100mg. Is 10 weeks too long for 1st time user of tren? What is so bad about tren, about being so strong and so on? All you do is inject and live daily life until its over. Some people are like scared of the aas. I cant cut the tren short, since its mixed together. I want to run both for 10 weeks and winny at 55mg a day starting week 6 until 10. This will be a lean mass cycle. I have nolvadex for pct and 10mg ed throughout cycle. Cant get hcg.

I ran practically the same cycle about a year and a half ago. If you can handle the sides after 6-8 weeks then you can extend it. My ooriginal plan was 8 weeks of Tren and finsh off at 10 weeks with the Prop and Winny. But I was feeling just fine and decided to continue the Tren. It was an incredible cycle. Here's a link to my log I kept if you want to read it.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=182094&highlight=2nd+cycle

[S.C.]

I ran practically the same cycle about a year and a half ago. If you can handle the sides after 6-8 weeks then you can extend it. My ooriginal plan was 8 weeks of Tren and finsh off at 10 weeks with the Prop and Winny. But I was feeling just fine and decided to continue the Tren. It was an incredible cycle. Here's a link to my log I kept if you want to read it.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=182094&highlight=2nd+cycle


Great log Murph, thanks for posting the link up here! Looks like it was a great cycle, save for the accident. Are you recovered now? How have you been doing? I hope better :).

(Sorry to take my own thread slightly off topic lol).

[MurphMan]

Great log Murph, thanks for posting the link up here! Looks like it was a great cycle, save for the accident. Are you recovered now? How have you been doing? I hope better :).

(Sorry to take my own thread slightly off topic lol).

Sure. Yeah, I'm doing alot better. Walking pretty good without crutches and have a weekend job.

[S.C.]

Sure. Yeah, I'm doing alot better. Walking pretty good without crutches and have a weekend job.

Great to hear :).

[S.C.]

2 Things:

1. I just realized that on the first post of this thread I meant to write "Anabol" on #3 instead of "Anavar" again. Can't edit it anymore though :(.

2. In Big Cat's article that he posted on the forum called "The Sane Cycle: Safe and Effective Use of Steroids" he states (in ruling out tren's use in this safe cycle) "Trenbolone and nandrolone (Deca-Durabolin, Laurabolin, Durabolin) are excluded because they are too suppressive."

Any reactions to this? I wish Big Cat were still here so we could discuss this further. He is ruling the drug out of a SAFE cycle, meaning he thinks it is too suppressive to be healthy.

Agree? Disagree?

[peregrine]

it is highly supprressive, that's why many use hcg.

[S.C.]

it is highly supprressive, that's why many use hcg.

Suppressive to the extent that it will hurt your overall life-time health even if used in small doses in short cycles (around 5 weeks) with test as a base?

I realized it was suppressive, just not to the extent that Big Cat would recommend not to take it for serious health reasons.

[XFactor]

Suppressive to the extent that it will hurt your overall life-time health even if used in small doses in short cycles (around 5 weeks) with test as a base?

I realized it was suppressive, just not to the extent that Big Cat would recommend not to take it for serious health reasons.


I think you should consider what safe is relative towards here. Safe compared to what? Safe compared to insulin and GH or safe compared to test...Safe compared to drunk driving or lightning strikes or safe compared to playing with fire and shooting bottle rockets out your bum hole?

They are illegal drugs after all.

[S.C.]

I think you should consider what safe is relative towards here. Safe compared to what? Safe compared to insulin and GH or safe compared to test...Safe compared to drunk driving or lightning strikes or safe compared to playing with fire and shooting bottle rockets out your bum hole?

They are illegal drugs after all.

Very true. So what is the most dangerous part about tren? The suppressiveness?

And the side effect that we are fearing is _______?

[GovernorMills]

I think you should consider what safe is relative towards here. Safe compared to what? Safe compared to insulin and GH or safe compared to test...Safe compared to drunk driving or lightning strikes or safe compared to playing with fire and shooting bottle rockets out your bum hole?

They are illegal drugs after all.

Great point, it is all relative, compared to EQ it may be much more dangerous, but compared to insulin, which could cause immediate death, it is much safer. so i agree totally.

[GovernorMills]

I always get the pellets and homebrew. One thing that makes a huge difference for me is filtering the **** out of it. I mean I filter the stuff to hell and back. The first time i did it i filtered once. I got the cough and everything. I have tried it again and if I filter it a bazillion times I get all the great results, but no cough at all. Plus it just seems cleaner and more pure. How many times do you guys filter? I assume just once.

[bluestrm]

Well, Bigcat is always at cuttingedge, and it is funny that he mentioned how dangerous Tren is here. Over there, he states that it should be run at least 12 weeks, and the longer, the better.
I know that is for the gains, but I believe the longer you run Tren the more suppressive it is on the HPTA.
I think 8 weeks is a good rule of thumb. Longer if the sides don't hit you.
And definitely use HCG when you use Tren.

As far as the kidney problems, never read much about that. I'm sure, just like stated earlier, that the kidney problems subside when the cycle is discontinued.

[SHOT]

Dont forget about anandrol...that gives some serious strenth gains as well....

IMO var is the best for strenth gains...i know i hit my all time best lifts on var before..and that was var only on a bridge between cycles.

Both var are drols are much safer then tren and dont kill the natural test prodcution like tren does. All i hear is these ppl posting about how tren as little to know side effects...yet everytime i have used it i got the est side effects from it then all the other steroids i ever used put together...within 10 days my test levels are competely shot and it takes many weeks of clomid nolv and hcg to get me back to normal...and really i dont care for the results i get fro tren anyway so its just not worth it to me...

If you can find legit var i would run 50-60 mg daily really does the body good when it comes to strenyth gains!!

just my 2 cc worth.

[peregrine]

Dont forget about anandrol...that gives some serious strenth gains as well....

IMO var is the best for strenth gains...i know i hit my all time best lifts on var before..and that was var only on a bridge between cycles.

...yet everytime i have used it i got the est side effects from it then all the other steroids i ever used put together...within 10 days my test levels are competely shot and it takes many weeks of clomid nolv and hcg to get me back to normal...and really i dont care for the results i get fro tren anyway so its just not worth it to me...


nice

[S.C.]

Dont forget about anandrol...that gives some serious strenth gains as well....

IMO var is the best for strenth gains...i know i hit my all time best lifts on var before..and that was var only on a bridge between cycles.

Both var are drols are much safer then tren and dont kill the natural test prodcution like tren does. All i hear is these ppl posting about how tren as little to know side effects...yet everytime i have used it i got the est side effects from it then all the other steroids i ever used put together...within 10 days my test levels are competely shot and it takes many weeks of clomid nolv and hcg to get me back to normal...and really i dont care for the results i get fro tren anyway so its just not worth it to me...

If you can find legit var i would run 50-60 mg daily really does the body good when it comes to strenyth gains!!

just my 2 cc worth.

That's interesting to hear your opinion SHOT. It would be nice to get some of the other mod's opinion also. Thanks for posting :).

S.C.

[Blown00Mustang]

...within 10 days my test levels are competely shot and it takes many weeks of clomid nolv and hcg to get me back to normal...
What do people find is the optimal PCT for a tren cycle?

[AcuDoc]

With tren ace people have a choice to inject every day or every other day. After careful research, I've read people have reported better results injecting every day and also by doing it this way it'll keep your blood levels more staple rather then injecting every other day which would make blood levels spike up then dip down throwing your body into CHAOS after awhile leading to more bad tren side effects.

I've read this same conclusion about test prop. Many people swear that ED injections cause alot less bloat and acne. Some argue that this is impossible since test is test and so there shouldn't be any difference between EOD and ED injections in relation to sides. Interesting idea though, if you don't mind the pokes, why not go ED?

[Rider19]

Originally posted by rjsilverback:
Trenbolone:

Original Trenbelone Acetate was marketed as Finaject and was 30mg/ml. It was taken off the market in 1987, Parabolan the long acting human version of Trenbelone was trashed in 1996. PARABOLIN is now available from several UG labs.
there are human studies done of course with Parabolan and most of the ones noted were on the psychological effects caused even by the long ester.

TA is a veterinary drug and no human studies are available.

Trenbelone is the most used and abused AAS in the US today.
Why? because the availability of pellets and these "kits".
Every kid and his brother not conected with regular AAS supplies or sources have access to this "wonder drug"and will eat it, snort it, rub it, and shoot it.

The kits produce a clean but yet dirty product for the body. Clean as it may be bacteria free but contain clean contaminants or irritants.

Examples:
A. Way too much solvent is used for the body to appropriately handle safely. Most kits are a combo of BA and BB and require 10 mls for 4 grams. There is no magic solution-solvents are solvents and cause discomfort-some more than others. Solvents are about the only thing AAS are soluable in besides oil-which we know has minimal toxicity.

Now here is the part most will disagree with.
These kits produce about 50-70% of the dose they say they do.
Most kits would test out at 35-60 mg per ml if that. I was going to get my vet to make some and test it through San Raf, but there was/is not much support nor do I care to use these anyway anymore.
And plus people would scream BIAS if I was involved in anyway because the magic solvents have been exposed a while ago.

Why less than dose per ml than advertised or promised?
Because 10 mls solvent is not enough to extract 4 grams of hormone from the pressed cellulose acetate in the pellets to which the tren is bound to.

An informal study was done years ago looking at the various solvents used to extract tren from pellets and their yield.

Each experiment was performed twice and using 2 grams pellets in 100 mls solvent coffee filtered and allowed to evap with the tren powder recovered and weighed.
Results:
1. Ether-yielded 1.86 grams
2. Methanol yielded 1.74 Grams
3 Acetone yielded 1.64 grams
BA BB was not done because of the very high evaporation points.

So someone explain to me how 10 mls of solvent will yield 100% extraction and no cellulose will be in the end product?

Kits produce a very allergic, toxic product in their own even though sterile filtered and baked.

Three toxic products from the kit that make it through the filter are the solvent, the partially dissolved Cellulose acetate, the oil and the trenbelone mix itself.

These toxic products in the tren produce unflattering reactions in the body itself amplifying the already irritating effect of the trenbelone itself.


My cows have used a lot of kits and even made my own with BA/BB and some of the most "memorable" effects were:

1. The "Rush and Flush"-this is the allergic, almost anaphylatic reaction you get after injecting tren from a kit.
Some of the excess solvent in the depot gets absorbed very quickly as does some of the tren. This leads to-in some-coughing fits, red face, increased blood pressure, increased body heat, headaches and fatigue or lethargy after you recover.
Depending upon solvent levels you will have pain and swelling at the injection site.

*I will note that to reduce these sides I have administered to my cows 200 mg of ibuprofen and at least 100mg of Aspirin to fight the "inflammatory effects" mentioned above. Taken 30 minutes before a pop and the sides were less noticeable.

2. Fatigue and Lethargy, High BP, Sweating, Insomnia, Moodiness, headaches, reduced appetite, missed training sessions...basically the "Tren Flu" are all part of the tren hangover as I call it. The body is fighting a lot of the impurities as a mild infection...and the sides of the drug itself can be potentiated by all these factors listed above.

*Some of these effects can be eliminated by using tren powder and a minimum amount of solvent-.75-1.0 ml per gram.

Tren and cancer tren and pneumonia-as in scar tissue in the lungs, tren and kidney failure, tren and sterilizing effects, etc...

None of these have been proven, but certainly possible in the vast array of doses and tren products and methods used to make tren. Each individuals experiences will vary as the increase in the amount of the Gene Pool-(more users experimenting with tren).
I could elaborate more but I too am unsure of the long term effects of tren-especially from "kitted tren".

Negative Side Effects of Tren:
High BP
Progesterone induced Gyno-for some
Headaches
Fatigue
Lethargy
Loss of Appetite
Moodiness
Aggression
Depression
Anxiety
Insomnia
Night and Day Sweats
Increased body temp, metabloism
Tren dick
Reduced sex drive
hair loss

Posititve Side Effects of Tren:
Increased strength gains
Increased muscle mass
Decreased Catabolism
Increased fat metabolism
Reduced water retention
Aggression-the good kind
Literally a poor man's GH with more toxic sides

After reading this list, you would be hell bent on using tren but there are ways I have found to minimize the sides and potentiate the gains and still use tren in a safer manner on my cows for a higher slaughter weight.

1. Only use tren a couple of times per year with test and 1-2
other anabolics.

2. Use low doses-35-70 mg a day ED dosing.

3. Cycle for short periods 6 weeks

4. Take the necessary ancillaries

A. Liver protection-Tyler's, milk thistle, ALA, Liv-52, Picro-Liv etc

B. Cranberry juice

C. Extra vitamins and minerals especially electrolytes and
anti-oxidants Vit C Vit E etc.

D. Double your water intake

E. Use prescribed BP meds when necessary-don't self medicate.

F. Use tren made from powder when ever necessary or available

G. Don't kit your tren from pellets-use it as a last resort

HOPE THIS theread was educational and will elicit some good feedback and more information."

[size]

It would be nice to get some of the other mod's opinion also. Thanks for posting :).S.C. I think it is an amazing compound for physique alterations but dangerous. In my opinion, it is one of worst compounds to take. I know many disagree but that is how I feel about it. Consequently, I do not think it should be used by beginners or recreational users/lifters.

[AcuDoc]

I totally agree with Size. While I have zero experience with tren, looking over the sides of it I have to wonder one thing. Why on Earth would you want to take this stuff unless you are about to turn pro. Test makes you feel like a god and with proper diet and training couldn't you just get to the same place but alot healthier?

When was tren first used in BB? I have to believe some of the earlier greats didn't use it and still had awesome results using simplier, safer cycles.

[genepool]

I think it is an amazing compound for physique alterations but dangerous. In my opinion, it is one of worst compounds to take. I know many disagree but that is how I feel about it. Consequently, I do not think it should be used by beginners or recreational users/lifters.

i just finished a cycle with 8wks tren 37mg/ ED-10wks test enan 500 mg/wk - cwinny 250mg/wk - about 2 weeks ago, while on i ran my LH/FSH.. shut down completely... in about 3 more days.. one i start clomid i am gonna run the tests again... when i get the results i'll post them on this thread.. hopefully it will provide some useful info about recovery times..


but i agree it is really harsh on the HPTA, i have never been shut down that completely on any cycle

[S.C.]

I totally agree with Size. While I have zero experience with tren, looking over the sides of it I have to wonder one thing. Why on Earth would you want to take this stuff unless you are about to turn pro. Test makes you feel like a god and with proper diet and training couldn't you just get to the same place but alot healthier?


Because it is regarded as the best steroid for strength gains, seemingly by the greater population of knowledgable steroid users. So for strength atheletes, it does indeed look like a useful drug.

Thanks for posting, size :).

S.C.

[Blown00Mustang]

i just finished a cycle with 8wks tren 37mg/ ED-10wks test enan 500 mg/wk - cwinny 250mg/wk - about 2 weeks ago, while on i ran my LH/FSH.. shut down completely... in about 3 more days.. one i start clomid i am gonna run the tests again... when i get the results i'll post them on this thread.. hopefully it will provide some useful info about recovery times..


but i agree it is really harsh on the HPTA, i have never been shut down that completely on any cycle
What is your PCT and hcg regemin for this cycle exactly? I'm going to ~6wks prop/tren.

[genepool]

What is your PCT and hcg regemin for this cycle exactly? I'm going to ~6wks prop/tren.
pct is novla/clomid.. i didnt get too much testicular shrinkage, but i have hcg on hand just in case...

[2pounds]

. Consequently, I do not think it should be used by beginners or recreational users/lifters.



my thoughts too,,, most of us our recreational users,,

[S.C.]

my thoughts too,,, most of us our recreational users,,

That is true, but for someone with his sole interests in strength increases, there aren't many available/sane drugs to use. In no particular order:

1. Tren: Hated/Loved
2. Anabol: Same situation as tren, some consider it too dangerous, some like it a lot.
3. Cheque drops: absolutely insanely dangerous.
4. Halo: Way too dangerous
5. Anavar: Hard to find, and tren is still much more widely approved for strength gains.

So this situation is quite hard. It boils down to tren, anabol, and anavar; of which one is very difficult to acquire for some.

S.C.

[size]

While many enjoy the strength gains of tren, there is a drawback that could be a limiting factor. Tren can cause unbelievable pumps in some. These pumps are so extreme that lifting can become difficult. If one suffers from this, then strength gains may actually be limited.

[S.C.]

While many enjoy the strength gains of tren, there is a drawback that could be a limiting factor. Tren can cause unbelievable pumps in some. These pumps are so extreme that lifting can become difficult. If one suffers from this, then strength gains may actually be limited.

Yea I have heard about this. I can't imagine experiencing it though. Is it really that insane?

[Blown00Mustang]

pct is novla/clomid.. i didnt get too much testicular shrinkage, but i have hcg on hand just in case...
The same as any other cycle?

I did 100mg clomid ED for 10 days, 50mg ED for 10 days after my last cycle. Would that be sufficient? I know that some people do 2wks/2wks, and some take 300mg the first day or two. I suppose it varies per person, but I'd like to know what has worked for other people on this kind of cycle.

[S.C.]

The same as any other cycle?

I did 100mg clomid ED for 10 days, 50mg ED for 10 days after my last cycle. Would that be sufficient? I know that some people do 2wks/2wks, and some take 300mg the first day or two. I suppose it varies per person, but I'd like to know what has worked for other people on this kind of cycle.

I agree, we should have some more discussion on PCT for tren (since it is so suppressive).

[Rider19]

I agree, we should have some more discussion on PCT for tren (since it is so suppressive).

My thoughts about good pct when using tren would be to definately have hcg. Run it throughout the cycle following Swale's Protocol. When using the hcg throughout the cycle, one should also take a low dose of nolva also to keep down side effects related to the hcg use.

For PCT do this:

I use both nolva and clomid to get the best of both worlds, note the when I run nolva with it I keep my clomid dosage lower then average during PCT.

Day 1&2-40mgnolva/300mgclomid
week 1-40mgnolva/100clomid
week 2-40mgnolva/100clomid
week 3- 20mg nolva/50clomid
week 4- 20 mg nolva/50clomid

PCT is controversial issue. Everyone uses different PCT measures, you gotta find what works best for you. Clomid gives some side effects that hard hard to cope with, such as crying in the movie theaters or being a moody bitch throughout the day.
You'll feel much more emotional using clomid, thats why i don't recommed using a higher doses of it throughout PCT. Nolva and clomid are very similiar, but the both have benefits the other doesn't have, thats why IMHO i use both.

Also to help combat Post Cycle depression consider using ST. John's Wort, be sure to take it just prior to your last injection as this pill takes about 3-4 weeks to feel the full effects of it.

Take NAC to help your body regenerate any damage caused by tren to the liver and kidneys. VERY EFFECTIVE pc, especially since one just used tren.

[S.C.]

Thanks for the great post Rider. How do you recommend the HCG be taken throughout the cycle?

Refer to:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=400046 for more on NAC and other useful supplements.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=14055 for more on liver protection.

[bluestrm]

I agree with Rider19 on the PCT.
You should use HCG. It mimics LH. If you don't use it throughout the cycle, then use it at the end as the older protocol used to be. It helps in getting things started up faster. And Clomid and Nolva for PCT.
Other drugs to consider (if you have the right connections) are:
Lupron- known as a "GnRH-agonist". Lupron, through a chain of reactions helps release LH and FSH.
Pergonal (HMG)-provides 75iu of LH and 75iu of FSH through injections.
Formastane-Decreases estrogen and progesterone receptor concentrations. Promotes HPTA up-regulation. And it has some anti-DHT value as well.
Cabergoline(Dostinex)-Low dose ani-prolactin drug. Also up-regultes HPTA function. And used during your cycle of Tren, it has a positive effect on your sex life.
These drugs were discussed in Blasting Big Balls Protocol. I have a thread here on it.

[S.C.]

Thanks for the post blue! Can you link the thread in here so researchers have easy access?

S.C.

[Rider19]

[QUOTE=S.C.]Thanks for the great post Rider. How do you recommend the HCG be taken throughout the cycle?

I know it got posted a couple of times in the past on our forum, but since we're trying to get this thread a sticky :cool: and it fits well with tren use, here's Swale's protocol, which I would follow if I ever decide to use tren.

Swale Protocol:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

ANY INFORMATION I MAY GIVE IS JUST FOR ****S AND GIGGLES AND DOES NOT SUBSTITUTE FOR A PROPER EVALUATION BY A QUALIFIED PHYSICIAN, NOR DOES IT CONSTITUTE DOCTOR/PATIENT RELATIONSHIP, OR LIABILITY, IN ANY WAY.

[S.C.]

Thanks for that Rider. It is very good that we have thoroughly discussed tren PCT now :).

[TheOak86*]

Hmm I was set on using tren for my next cycle, it would of been a test e,tren a and winny cycle. However now Im contemplating it, I already have all the stuff, I just want to know is tren really worth it in the long run?

I get a varitey of opinions on different boards which makes it even more difficult for a conclusion, I was even thinking of adding some femera in at about 1.25mg e4d.

[Big-Golden]

I used tren in my last 2 cycles. I used HCG and nolva for PCT, and everything went smooth both times. I used HCG at the end in the 2500, 2500, 2000, 1500, 1500 method. During the cycle, my testicals had really atrophied, but after the HCG administration, they were bigger than normal. I never felt depressed or down during any part of pct, and my libido only dropped for 2 weeks.

[S.C.]

I used tren in my last 2 cycles. I used HCG and nolva for PCT, and everything went smooth both times. I used HCG at the end in the 2500, 2500, 2000, 1500, 1500 method. During the cycle, my testicals had really atrophied, but after the HCG administration, they were bigger than normal. I never felt depressed or down during any part of pct, and my libido only dropped for 2 weeks.

Thanks for the input Big Golden :).

I think Rider's idea for PCT is a rather "be on the safe side" type of PCT and supplementing during the cycle, but I would recommend it over anything else. If one wants to prolong his use of this drug, and remain healthy, the upmost careful measures must be taken to protect the organs (liver + kidney), natural test production, and avoid the cough (as we are still not entirely sure what causes it). Still, it is good to hear that you came out well without all of this 'extra' carefullness we planned.

S.C. :)

[SHOT]

That is true, but for someone with his sole interests in strength increases, there aren't many available/sane drugs to use. In no particular order:

1. Tren: Hated/Loved
2. Anabol: Same situation as tren, some consider it too dangerous, some like it a lot.
3. Cheque drops: absolutely insanely dangerous.
4. Halo: Way too dangerous
5. Anavar: Hard to find, and tren is still much more widely approved for strength gains.

So this situation is quite hard. It boils down to tren, anabol, and anavar; of which one is very difficult to acquire for some.

S.C.

anabol is dbol bro..i think you mean anadrol...which is not even close to being as bad for you as tren.....i like how you have halo as way to dangerous but considering useing tren lol..i guess you just have to use tren to see how bad it really makes u feel lol

Ananvar is not as hard to find as you may think..and if more ppl knew where to get legit var and could AFFORD it...then you would see alot more ppl sayin that vis better for strenth then tren...but because its hard to find legit var and it cost so much...ppl will stick to the cheap dirty tren lol

[S.C.]

anabol is dbol bro..i think you mean anadrol...which is not even close to being as bad for you as tren.....i like how you have halo as way to dangerous but considering useing tren lol..i guess you just have to use tren to see how bad it really makes u feel lol

Ananvar is not as hard to find as you may think..and if more ppl knew where to get legit var and could AFFORD it...then you would see alot more ppl sayin that vis better for strenth then tren...but because its hard to find legit var and it cost so much...ppl will stick to the cheap dirty tren lol

I am sorry, I guess I got confused or typed the wrong word, I can't remmember. I meant anadrol nontheless. Most people seem to warn of its ill effects, whether that is just because it is an oral or not I do not know.

I have yet to hear of one postive remark about halo without an immediate negative remark about sides. This is where I base my comment.

Finally, I have a question for you, and anybody else who has tried both anavar and tren.

If the costs were the same, availability the same, sides both non-existing, which would you chose for pure strength gains, anavar or tren?

Thanks,

S.C. :)

[S.C.]

By the way, when I mentioned anadrol being hard to find, and low availailability, I was really indicating two things:

1. It is hard to find in the first place.

2. Too expensive for most people.

So these two together, I just joined them up as having low availability.

[Rider19]

By the way, when I mentioned anadrol being hard to find, and low availailability, I was really indicating two things:

1. It is hard to find in the first place.

2. Too expensive for most people.

So these two together, I just joined them up as having low availability.


1) In the past, it was hard to get. Over the last year or so, people have been getting the powders in order to make homebrews. Lately, there have been new UG labs popping up almost weekly. People are starting to learn how easy making their own homebrews and how to cap their own roids with ease. The emergence as var as a powder and then capping it yourself is becoming popular with people, and now UG are able to offer it more widely. Its actually, simple to find, if you know where to look. :)

2) It is a bit pricey, but not overwhelming. It depends on the "product distributor". To give you an idea, 2 bottles of Cell-tech are more expensive then var. Just sacrifice a couple of small things, such as not going out and buying new clothes, dump your girlfriend to save money for a couple of weeks, :D, when you get your pay check on Friday, immediately go to the bank and deposit it. Do not put it in your wallet to keep, b/c most likely you'll wind up spending it before the weekends over. :cool:

[Stez]

I used tren in my last 2 cycles. I used HCG and nolva for PCT, and everything went smooth both times. I used HCG at the end in the 2500, 2500, 2000, 1500, 1500 method. During the cycle, my testicals had really atrophied, but after the HCG administration, they were bigger than normal. I never felt depressed or down during any part of pct, and my libido only dropped for 2 weeks.


Never use more than 500iu of HCG in a single hit. It's actually toxic at levels above 500.

250iu of HCG Every Other Day is enough to put your balls at 100%.

This is taken directly from medical studies, although I don't have the references on hand. I am on HRT and do a lot of research, so just take my word for it. You'll also save yourself a heap of money by only using 250iu EOD.

[meanmo]

Never use more than 500iu of HCG in a single hit. It's actually toxic at levels above 500.

250iu of HCG Every Other Day is enough to put your balls at 100%.

This is taken directly from medical studies, although I don't have the references on hand. I am on HRT and do a lot of research, so just take my word for it. You'll also save yourself a heap of money by only using 250iu EOD.


This is certainly true for me, the armomatization from HCG is huge and anything over 500iu balloons my nips.. I only go 2 x per week at 250iu (swale) and find it superior.

[NuggzTheNinja]

Spargo from http://www.welshamateurbodybuilding.com/ has used tren is all of his posted cycles.

While preparing for a competition, a week out, he ran into some serious troubles. This pasted from his website...

http://www.welshamateurbodybuilding.com/Rich%20Spargo%20(%20Preparation%20For%20The%20Nabb a%20Wales%20)%20page.htm

"All went wrong for me unfortunately, this is afternoon approx 7 p.m. of the first day of carb up, about 5 that afternoon i started bleeding from arse, gums, ears and nose, i also passed a little blood in urine on the friday. was falling asleep after eating and was weak to the point where i could only get up stairs on hands and knees."

" had a constant taste of salt for 7 days previous and skin and eyes stinging constantly, i think my kidneys had started to shut down, shame cause i was well up for it and after the bleeding i went to tascos and bought all the things id been craviong for last 10 days and ate till i was sick, been doiung the same till today which is the 8 / 5 / 2005, on the saturdy morn of the show i was full and even more cut than in the photos displayed, god only knows how cauyse i was eating ice cream ilke a demon along with cookies biscuits choclatye toffee take aways,really spoiled myself, was still unwell till 6 / 5/ 2005, would fall asleep after eating food and was constantly bloated and feeling bit sick, couldnt sleep very well and a salty taste coming back now and then, no more bleeding though really, little from nose when i showered but i get that anyway."




I agree with him, I think it was kidney issues.

I've seen people say that Tren is harsh on the kidneys. Do you think excessive tren use could be attributed to this?

I'm not trying to blame anything on gear, but just hope that this specific case serves as a cautionary note to anybody considering hardcore AAS use, especially tren.

:)

[Rider19]

Ttt

[S.C.]

Ttt

Yea.