Creatine and HMB stack

[Mad Dog162]

This was sent to me by Maximuscle (yeah, I know) - is it more truthful than some of their other adverts?

How to build muscle faster for the Summer

Dear Sam,

If you've been training with weights for more than a few months,
you know already that muscle growth can be a painfully slow
process.

You bust a gut three or four times a week in the gym, eat all the
right foods, and still you look the same in the mirror.

If you want to step on the scales a few short weeks from now with
a lot more muscle than you have today, there are two powerful
nutrients proven to deliver the results you're looking for.

Their muscle-building power is revealed in an exciting study
published in the scientific journal Nutrition (volume 17, pages
558-566 - available from the British Library).

Before I show you the results, here's some vital background info
you should know...

As one of the most effective nutrients legally available, there
are literally hundreds of studies to show that Creatine will help
you build muscle faster, get stronger and give your muscles a
fuller, more "pumped" look.

When you combine it with HMB, a compound found naturally in meat
(though you'll need to eat around six pounds of meat every day to
get enough) the results are that much more impressive.

HMB is a very powerful anti-catabolic ingredient. What does this
mean? Your muscles grow by a circular process of synthesising and
breaking down proteins. If you want bigger, stronger muscles, you
need to alter this cycle.

That means either speeding up synthesis (anabolism) and/or
slowing the rate of breakdown (catabolism). Muscle growth is the
balance between the amount of protein your body makes and the
amount it breaks down.

Creatine is highly anabolic, while HMB is a powerful
anti-catabolic. That's why HMB and creatine are the perfect
combination for anyone who wants to pack on muscle without
gaining fat.

The theory sounds great, doesn't it? But does it work in
practice?

The answer is a resounding "yes!"

Researchers from Poland's Institute of Sport and Physical
Education have put the creatine/HMB combo to the test. Their
exciting results show that creatine and HMB work better together
than either nutrient taken alone.

Subjects using HMB, for example, were able to lift a total of 83
pounds more weight at the end of the three-week study than they
could at the start. Gains were similar (86 pounds) in the group
using creatine.

However, participants using both creatine and HMB were able to
lift a whopping 114 pounds more than they could at the start of
the study. In other words, the combination of creatine and HMB is
almost 40% more powerful than HMB alone at increasing strength.

What's more, not only did test subjects using HMB and creatine
get stronger faster, they also found it easier to gain muscle.
Participants in the creatine group, for example, gained 2 pounds
of lean muscle. However, those using creatine and HMB gained an
impressive 3.4 pounds of lean muscle. In fact, the group using
creatine and HMB gained three times more muscle than those using
HMB alone.

If you're the "scientific type" who wants to read more about how
the research was done, it was published in the journal Nutrition
(volume 17, pages 558-566 - available from the British Library).

But, if you want to pack on muscle in a hurry, and you
want to try the combination of creatine and HMB for yourself, one
of the best ways is with an all-in-one formula, such as
Cyclone by Maximuscle.

[doggiejoe]

HMB is overpriced and a waste of money.

"In fact, the group using
creatine and HMB gained three times more muscle than those using
HMB alone."

- Right there they revealed themselves. All the results were from the creatine. Remember this is all about the $. And they want yours, they certainly are not having mines.

[pu12en12g]

"In fact, the group using creatine and HMB gained three times more muscle than those using HMB alone."

OWNED !

[chlaxman]

HMB is overpriced and a waste of money.


All you need to know right there.

[Mad Dog162]

Thanks guys!

[BringnIt]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11448573

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10978853

Just playing devil's advocate.

[PowerSwede]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11448573

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10978853

Just playing devil's advocate.

Indeed these studies are interesting, if it had only done anything for me i'd be recommending it using these studies to back up my word and experiences with it.

It didn't do anything for me though, just like so many other supplements i have tried over the years it did absolutely nothing for me. It was quite pricey too back then, so i sorted the experience under "lessons learned" and have never used it nor recommended it since.

[satanfuneral]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11448573

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10978853

Just playing devil's advocate.

Take a look at the name (Nissen S), this guy has & had something to do with HMB products, he is not a respected name when it comes to HMB supplemetation. HMB in real world doesn't work. :)

[satanfuneral]

BTW, I can show u some studies (without Nissen name on them) which confirm HMB doesn't work. :)

[BringnIt]

Not to sound like a jerk, but http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=devil%27s%20advocate

And sure it's expensive, but so are a lot of things; and sure some studies say it doesn't work, but some studies say it does; and sure some people dislike it, but others are fans. You can find studies for and against most things. I didn't say, "Here are studies, my word is as to a god." Just remember, some people don't respond to creatine monohydrate, it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Who can explain why? And liquid creatine had a 70% satisfaction rate from consumers, can you explain that one? Most of the studies on HMB I came across were on short durations, too short to determine much of anything. But there are other studies that say it is protein-sparing, etc. Mr. Layne Norton happens to be a big fan of the stuff.

Do I think it is cost-effective? Probably not. Do I think leucine is superior? Certainly.

But maybe those of you who have taken it got results that just weren't easily felt. Can you tell the difference between taking vitamin E or not taking it? I certainly can't.

I guess I'm done with my pompous lecture now. Don't take it too seriously, I'm just kidding around with you.

[satanfuneral]

Not to sound like a jerk, but http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=devil%27s%20advocate

And sure it's expensive, but so are a lot of things; and sure some studies say it doesn't work, but some studies say it does; and sure some people dislike it, but others are fans. You can find studies for and against most things. I didn't say, "Here are studies, my word is as to a god." Just remember, some people don't respond to creatine monohydrate, it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Who can explain why? And liquid creatine had a 70% satisfaction rate from consumers, can you explain that one? Most of the studies on HMB I came across were on short durations, too short to determine much of anything. But there are other studies that say it is protein-sparing, etc. Mr. Layne Norton happens to be a big fan of the stuff.

Do I think it is cost-effective? Probably not. Do I think leucine is superior? Certainly.

But maybe those of you who have taken it got results that just weren't easily felt. Can you tell the difference between taking vitamin E or not taking it? I certainly can't.

I guess I'm done with my pompous lecture now. Don't take it too seriously, I'm just kidding around with you.

U didn't get my point, when I said he is not a respected name when it comes to HMB studies, it's not just my personal opinion, I am sure u heard the name Bryan Haycock MSc., CSCS, he knows his **** very well this is a piece of his article about HMB:

"You’ll notice that Steve Nissen is involved in nearly every study showing a positive effect of HMB. He has a personal interest in the commercial success of the compound."

I am sure if u ask different HMB experts about Nissen they will give u the same reply about his studies.



Just remember, some people don't respond to creatine monohydrate, it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Who can explain why?


You cannot compare creatine non-responders with HMB non-responders.



Who can explain why?


check the scientific literature there are some clear physiological factors for creatine non-responders.



And liquid creatine had a 70% satisfaction rate from consumers, can you explain that one?


I am not a guy to choose my supplements from anecdotal reports. :)

I am not here to debate, if u think it works for u, u can go for it.

btw, Don't take it too seriously, I'm just kidding around with you. :)

take care

[PowerSwede]

Not to sound like a jerk, but http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=devil%27s%20advocate

And sure it's expensive, but so are a lot of things; and sure some studies say it doesn't work, but some studies say it does; and sure some people dislike it, but others are fans. You can find studies for and against most things. I didn't say, "Here are studies, my word is as to a god." Just remember, some people don't respond to creatine monohydrate, it doesn't mean it doesn't work. Who can explain why? And liquid creatine had a 70% satisfaction rate from consumers, can you explain that one? Most of the studies on HMB I came across were on short durations, too short to determine much of anything. But there are other studies that say it is protein-sparing, etc. Mr. Layne Norton happens to be a big fan of the stuff.

Do I think it is cost-effective? Probably not. Do I think leucine is superior? Certainly.

But maybe those of you who have taken it got results that just weren't easily felt. Can you tell the difference between taking vitamin E or not taking it? I certainly can't.

I guess I'm done with my pompous lecture now. Don't take it too seriously, I'm just kidding around with you.

Please don't compare vitamin E to HMB, the claims of effect for HMB are quite different than the ones for vitamin E.

A better comparison would be HMB and creatine (since both of them are used for the same thing and are supposedly similar in effects according to the advocates), can you feel the effects of creatine, i certainly can.

I agree with you regarding leucine though, it's a lot cheaper and we get it every day through our diets and our whey, there is no real need to supplement leucine (or it's metabolites which will be present in your body if you ingest leucine) IMO.

[PowerSwede]

BTW, I can show u some studies (without Nissen name on them) which confirm HMB doesn't work. :)

Please do. :)

Thank you for the information regarding Nissen, i wasn't aware of that, this does explain a lot.

[satanfuneral]

Please do. :)

Thank you for the information regarding Nissen, i wasn't aware of that, this does explain a lot.

Unfortunately these days I am so busy & don't have enough time for forums but I will post more in future as I get more free time.

Effects of calcium beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation during resistance-training on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength.

Kreider RB, Ferreira M, Wilson M, Almada AL.

Department of Human Movement Sciences & Education, The University of Memphis, TN 38152, USA. kreider.richard@coe.memphis.edu

Calcium beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation has been reported to reduce muscle catabolism and promote gains in fat-free mass and strength in subjects initiating training. However, whether HMB supplementation promotes these adaptations in trained athletes is less clear. This study examined the effects of HMB (as the calcium salt) supplementation during resistance training (6.9+/-0.7 hr x wk(-1)) on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength in experienced resistance-trained males. In a double-blind and randomized manner, 40 experienced resistance-trained athletes were matched and assigned to supplement their diet for 28 d with a fortified carbohydrate/protein powder containing either 0, 3 or 6 g x d(-1) of calcium HMB. Fasting venous blood and urine samples, dual energy X-ray absorptiometer-determined body composition, and isotonic bench press and leg press one repetition maximums (1 RM) were determined prior to and following 28 d of supplementation. HMB supplementation resulted in significant increases in serum and urinary HMB concentrations. However, no statistically significant differences were observed in general markers of whole body anabolic/catabolic status, muscle and liver enzyme efflux, fat/bone-free mass, fat mass, percent body fat, or 1 RM strength. Results indicate that 28 d of HMB supplementation (3 to 6 g x d(-1)) during resistance-training does not reduce catabolism or affect training-induced changes in body composition and strength in experienced resistance-trained males.

Int J Sports Med. 1999 Nov;20(8):503-9.

[BringnIt]

I didn't mean to compare it in what they do or that E is proven and HMB is not, just that every supplement you take you can't really feel if it's working was my point there. And I also said that there are studies for and against HMB. I have never, and probably will never try HMB. But a 28 day study means nothing. If you had someone take 5 grams of creatine mono. for 5 days and held a 28 day study to see their gains in muscle, weight loss, etc., do you think those would be positive? I personally don't.

HOWEVER, and I apparently can't make this clear enough, I am playing devil's advocate.

[PowerSwede]

Unfortunately these days I am so busy & don't have enough time for forums but I will post more in future as I get more free time.

Effects of calcium beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation during resistance-training on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength.

Kreider RB, Ferreira M, Wilson M, Almada AL.

Department of Human Movement Sciences & Education, The University of Memphis, TN 38152, USA. kreider.richard@coe.memphis.edu

Calcium beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation has been reported to reduce muscle catabolism and promote gains in fat-free mass and strength in subjects initiating training. However, whether HMB supplementation promotes these adaptations in trained athletes is less clear. This study examined the effects of HMB (as the calcium salt) supplementation during resistance training (6.9+/-0.7 hr x wk(-1)) on markers of catabolism, body composition and strength in experienced resistance-trained males. In a double-blind and randomized manner, 40 experienced resistance-trained athletes were matched and assigned to supplement their diet for 28 d with a fortified carbohydrate/protein powder containing either 0, 3 or 6 g x d(-1) of calcium HMB. Fasting venous blood and urine samples, dual energy X-ray absorptiometer-determined body composition, and isotonic bench press and leg press one repetition maximums (1 RM) were determined prior to and following 28 d of supplementation. HMB supplementation resulted in significant increases in serum and urinary HMB concentrations. However, no statistically significant differences were observed in general markers of whole body anabolic/catabolic status, muscle and liver enzyme efflux, fat/bone-free mass, fat mass, percent body fat, or 1 RM strength. Results indicate that 28 d of HMB supplementation (3 to 6 g x d(-1)) during resistance-training does not reduce catabolism or affect training-induced changes in body composition and strength in experienced resistance-trained males.

Int J Sports Med. 1999 Nov;20(8):503-9.

Thank you satansfuneral, good info as always.

It'll be good to have you posting more, you are always ready to back up your statements with science, i like that.

[PowerSwede]

I didn't mean to compare it in what they do or that E is proven and HMB is not, just that every supplement you take you can't really feel if it's working was my point there. And I also said that there are studies for and against HMB. I have never, and probably will never try HMB. But a 28 day study means nothing. If you had someone take 5 grams of creatine mono. for 5 days and held a 28 day study to see their gains in muscle, weight loss, etc., do you think those would be positive? I personally don't.

HOWEVER, and I apparently can't make this clear enough, I am playing devil's advocate.

Yes, a 28 day study of creatine ingestion WOULD most certainly be positive, there are plenty of them out there.

It's nothing personal, i'm just arguing against you based on my experience with it. :)

[BringnIt]

Weren't those studies using loading? Otherwise wouldn't it take virtually the full 28 days before creatine was saturated in the muscles?

And I of course do not take offense, though when I run out of science I will challenge you to a duel rather than concede defeat...

[BringnIt]

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/4/1340?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11435528&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11128859&dopt=Abstract

EDIT: Just wanted to throw out some Nissan-free studies. : )

[PowerSwede]

Weren't those studies using loading? Otherwise wouldn't it take virtually the full 28 days before creatine was saturated in the muscles?

And I of course do not take offense, though when I run out of science I will challenge you to a duel rather than concede defeat...

Hahaaaa, i will accept your challenge and i shall be victorious, ah, i can see it before me now, the women screaming, the men cheering and me riding off into the sunset with a blonde, a brunette and a redhed fitness chick!

[PowerSwede]

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/4/1340?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11435528&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11128859&dopt=Abstract

EDIT: Just wanted to throw out some Nissan-free studies. : )

1. Great news.... if you are a marathon runner or overtrain like a madman.
2. I'll save that one and re-read it when i'm 70+ (and it refers to studies made by Nissen)
3. Where to start.... First, they used untrained men, add the dosages they used of pretty much any compound and you'd get the same results, which, btw, were minimal. The results are very strange, the 3g/d group increased their isometric torque while the 6g/d did not while the 6g/d increased their isokinetic torque while the 3g/d did not, that makes no sense.

[BringnIt]

...Natural blonde or dyed?

1) At least it has its benefits, everyone else says it does NOTHING. My only point being that it does have uses. Maybe not the ones that everyone wants it to have, but uses nonetheless. Not to mention high-volume trainees often do overtrain like madmen.

2) You'll thank me when you are 70!

3) Fine then.

[PowerSwede]

...Natural blonde or dyed?

1) At least it has its benefits, everyone else says it does NOTHING. My only point being that it does have uses. Maybe not the ones that everyone wants it to have, but uses nonetheless. Not to mention high-volume trainees often do overtrain like madmen.

2) You'll thank me when you are 70!

3) Fine then.

1. you could argue the same point for glutamine and arginine, sure, it does something but it's not a valuable supplement for increasing muscle size.

2. Probably!

3. See, i am victorious!

*Rides off into the sunset with a brunette, a redhead and and a natural blonde (i am Swedish ;) ) fitness chick*

[BringnIt]

I would also make that argument for glutamine and arginine. My only point was that it has uses, to say that HMB/glutamine/arginine do NOTHING is incorrect. It may not have the effects that everyone wants, or what some people claim, but that doesn't mean it is without uses. So people can read the data and evaluate whether or not the possible uses plus the cost is worthy of their supplementation. I'm sure you understand.

And have fun with the ladies!

[satanfuneral]

1. Great news.... if you are a marathon runner or overtrain like a madman.
2. I'll save that one and re-read it when i'm 70+ (and it refers to studies made by Nissen)
3. Where to start.... First, they used untrained men, add the dosages they used of pretty much any compound and you'd get the same results, which, btw, were minimal. The results are very strange, the 3g/d group increased their isometric torque while the 6g/d did not while the 6g/d increased their isokinetic torque while the 3g/d did not, that makes no sense.

Thanks PowerSwede, good analysis (as always). :)

[satanfuneral]

Beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation does not affect changes in strength or body composition during resistance training in trained men.

Slater G, Jenkins D, Logan P, Lee H, Vukovich M, Rathmacher JA, Hahn AG.

Sports Medicine Sports Science Division of the Singapore Sports Council, National Stadium, Singapore.

This investigation evaluated the effects of oral beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB) supplementation on training responses in resistance-trained male athletes who were randomly administered HMB in standard encapsulation (SH), HMB in time release capsule (TRH), or placebo (P) in a double-blind fashion. Subjects ingested 3 g x day(-1) of HMB or placebo for 6 weeks. Tests were conducted pre-supplementation and following 3 and 6 weeks of supplementation. The testing battery assessed body mass, body composition (using dual energy x-ray absorptiometry), and 3-repetition maximum isoinertial strength, plus biochemical parameters, including markers of muscle damage and muscle protein turnover. While the training and dietary intervention of the investigation resulted in significant strength gains (p < .001) and an increase in total lean mass (p = .01), HMB administration had no influence on these variables. Likewise, biochemical markers of muscle protein turnover and muscle damage were also unaffected by HMB supplementation. The data indicate that 6 weeks of HMB supplementation in either SH or TRH form does not influence changes in strength and body composition in response to resistance training in strength-trained athletes.

Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Sep;11(3):384-96.

[BringnIt]

Hey, don't hate just because it doesn't do what you want it to.

[satanfuneral]

Hey, don't hate just because it doesn't do what you want it to.

what I want??

[pu12en12g]

HMB: Overrated, Overpriced, or Overlooked
By: Derek Charlebois

http://www.blackstarlabs.com/?articleID=15&aCatID=&a_id=7

[BringnIt]

I was kidding, don't take offense. I hope you don't think I'm vehemently arguing with you, or that I 100% believe HMB is effective. I realize there are people who hate it and people who like it, as with many supplements, and I would never tell anyone it was definitely a product that would help them. I'd label it a "try-at-your-own-risk" product.

[BringnIt]

Good post pu12.

[pu12en12g]

I'd label it a "try-at-your-own-risk" product.

Agreed. And a long-term one... if i could afford 6 months worth @ 10-15g daily I'd try it again....

[BringnIt]

Have you looked into the price at a certain bulk site?

[Moreps]

Useless??? Train and diet for a contest while using HMB, arginie, and glutamine. Then tell me how useless they are.

[satanfuneral]

I was kidding, don't take offense.

none taken bro :)



I hope you don't think I'm vehemently arguing with you, or that I 100% believe HMB is effective.

I didn't think that way :)

take care & good luck :)

[BringnIt]

The same to you.

[PowerSwede]

Useless??? Train and diet for a contest while using HMB, arginie, and glutamine. Then tell me how useless they are.

Useless as in overpriced solutions for a minimal result, and yes, i have tried them.

There are far better choices than HMB/arginine/glutamine when dieting.

[Moreps]

Useless as in overpriced solutions for a minimal result, and yes, i have tried them.

There are far better choices than HMB/arginine/glutamine when dieting.


Not disagreeing. Personally I get the best results with BCAA's. Throwing the other compounds into the mix at the right times and proper dosages amplifies the entire formula.

[PowerSwede]

Not disagreeing. Personally I get the best results with BCAA's. Throwing the other compounds into the mix at the right times and proper dosages amplifies the entire formula.

Personally i don't ingest individual aminos since i get 500g of them through my diet and a couple of shakes.

[pu12en12g]

Useless as in overpriced solutions for a minimal result, and yes, i have tried them.

There are far better choices than HMB/arginine/glutamine when dieting.

Excellent, objective posting. :cool:

[Moreps]

Personally i don't ingest individual aminos since i get 500g of them through my diet and a couple of shakes.

Yes... so do I. However dieting, and dieting for a SHOW, are like comparing apples to oranges. Pre-contest, the individual amino's as well as the bcaa's make a world of difference. For ME.
Everyone responds differently.

[PowerSwede]

Yes... so do I. However dieting, and dieting for a SHOW, are like comparing apples to oranges. Pre-contest, the individual amino's as well as the bcaa's make a world of difference. For ME.
Everyone responds differently.

I keep my protein that high when dieting and increase cardio instead even when dieting for a SHOW. ;)

It's actually not different at all for me, whether it's for a photo-shoot or for a show or just because it's time to lose some weight, i do it the same way regardless of the occasion.

I might consider adding EAA's but i wouldn't waste money on glutamine and arginine though, there is no need and i find them utterly useless.