Mix your whey with water after lifting? Might want to switch to milk...

[cakedonkey]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15570142

PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

[PunDogg]

first off, what the hell is that article saying, i don't understand half of it and second

cliff nots please :)

Dogg

[Lok7y]

Could you please point out to me where the study indicates that a whey/casein blend is better at stimulating counterregulatory protein synthesis post-training, as opposed to just a whey/water mixture? Thanks.

This is the sentence you should be looking at:


Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg).

Remember: CS and WH are separate sample-groups.

[cakedonkey]

Maybe I'm overstepping my mark a bit, but I figured most might find this interesting. I'm certainly no pro. Loki, I know you know your ****, so maybe you could elaborate a bit more? Thanks for the heads up.

I mean, from what I gathered, I guess if you use casein along with whey after lifting, you promote anabolisim more efficiently than if you were to just use whey alone. I guess there's more to it than this, however...

[BringnIt]

I've said it before, I think it's splitting hairs to think that 8 oz. of milk vs. water is going to make a huge difference either way when it comes to post-workout nutrition if your pre-workout nutrition is spot on. I personally do my whey in water both pre- and post-, simply because I eat 30-45 minutes after my post-workout shake to keep aminos in my blood stream. And I'm going to work, and just skimmed the study, but doesn't it say that net protein balance and protein synthesis were the same between whey and casein? But I, too, would like to see what Loki has to say on the matter.

[Lok7y]

I'm probably being over-critical.

The essential gist is you're kind of misextrapolating from the study.

Whey protein is the more anabolic/counter-catabolic protein based on digestion-time (and partly amino-acid make-up). Since your body can start to extract amino acids from it after about 45 mins, you'll notice that the peak net leucine balance in the whey group is more than double that of the casien post-workout group, indicating that the whey is quicker at stimulating protein synthesis.

Then, if you look further, you'll notice that the casein actually provides a slightly higher net phenylalanine uptake following training vs. the whey, because the casein is digested much slower in the gut, leading to a longer, more steady amino-acid influx.

What you should really be taking from the study is that, immediately post-workout, you do want only whey (with water, creatine, anything else you're taking PW like free-form EAAs/BCAAs, and carbohydrate), because the casein will slow your body's ability to extract amino acids from the whey. Since the whey will halt (or at least attenuate) post-workout catabolism after about 45-60 mins (once it's being digested), THAT'S when you would want to take your casein (or some other whole-food protein)--about 60-90 mins after training, because then you ensure that net leucine/phenylalanine balance both remain positively elevated in an anabolic direction so that adequate nutritive stimulus is available for protein synthesis. And obviously insulin, as an anti-proteolytic/storage hormone, will also help here too, which is why BCAAs/carbohydrates are most critical in the post-workout time frame.

Hope that helps.

[Lok7y]

Simple version:

- Whey shake (with whatever else you'd normally take), carbs (either in shake or just munched) within 15 minutes of training

- Solid meal containing protein, carbohydrate, and EFAs, 60-90 minutes after training.


That's really all that's necessary. Any more than that and you're splitting hairs (although don't forget about pre/during-workout either, as it is easily as important [if not more so] than post-workout).

[cakedonkey]

Wow, thank you very much for that Loki. Point well taken.

[BringnIt]

I'm pretty sure that's what I said. : ( I feel like Rodney Dangerfield.

[cakedonkey]

I appreciate your reply too, man. Loki's replies, to say the least though, are quite impressive.

[pu12en12g]

For some reason, I see good results by drinking skim milk during my workout (when bulking) :eek:.

No idea why..

[PowerSwede]

I'm pretty sure that's what I said. : ( I feel like Rodney Dangerfield.

No, what the study found, and what Loki is saying is that whey protein is the better choice post workout and that you should take your PWO whey with water since casein will slow down the absorbtion of the whey.

It's also something i have said several times in different threads.

[sardis3207]

misextrapolating

nice wordage, just learned that one from a friend a while back.

[BringnIt]

PowerSwede, "I personally do my whey in water both pre- and post-, simply because I eat 30-45 minutes after my post-workout shake to keep aminos in my blood stream." Also, " I think it's splitting hairs to think that 8 oz. of milk vs. water is going to make a huge difference either way." So I'm not saying with milk is superior, I do mine with water, what I am saying that while in water is superior and then eating later on another source of protein is the ideal way to go, what I'm saying is that it would take a good while for any measurable difference in long-term anabolism to show up. Agree/disagree?

My only point is that while we all go to such extremes in breaking things like this down to its very finest details, and sure it's fun, the tangible results are sometimes things that take forever to notice. As pu12 said, he gets good results in drinking milk during his workout while bulking, would it be an accurate assessment to say that he'd get noticeable differences between with milk and without milk? You, Loki, anyone, agree/disagree?

Oh, and cake, I was just kidding around, Loki is my internet hero. That's right Loki, if I could be any internet persona, it would be you, you should feel honored.

[PowerSwede]

PowerSwede, "I personally do my whey in water both pre- and post-, simply because I eat 30-45 minutes after my post-workout shake to keep aminos in my blood stream." Also, " I think it's splitting hairs to think that 8 oz. of milk vs. water is going to make a huge difference either way." So I'm not saying with milk is superior, I do mine with water, what I am saying that while in water is superior and then eating later on another source of protein is the ideal way to go, what I'm saying is that it would take a good while for any measurable difference in long-term anabolism to show up. Agree/disagree?

My only point is that while we all go to such extremes in breaking things like this down to its very finest details, and sure it's fun, the tangible results are sometimes things that take forever to notice. As pu12 said, he gets good results in drinking milk during his workout while bulking, would it be an accurate assessment to say that he'd get noticeable differences between with milk and without milk? You, Loki, anyone, agree/disagree?

Oh, and cake, I was just kidding around, Loki is my internet hero. That's right Loki, if I could be any internet persona, it would be you, you should feel honored.

The point is that ingesting a rapidly absorbed protein increases anabolism, does it matter in the long run? Yes it does! This is one of the very few things that actually DOES matter in the long run, is it going to be noticeable, i am aware of no studies that show that it is or that it isn't, but it doesn't make sense to spend more money on a rapidly absorbed protein and then slow down the absorbtion by adding another protein source (unless this is planned), it's like adding brown rice to your PWO dextrose.

Are calories going to increase weight and give more energy? Of course they are. Is protein from milk better than no protein at all? Of course it is, would he benefit more from another protein source? Probably.

[keepemseparated]

jee wizz... you guys are too smart for me... i already do drink milk pwo because it tastes better :) and i'm bulking. i didn't actually read the article, but couldn't the sugars in milk help with an insulin spike?

[JTrain306]

Informative thread, thank you very much! Rep for Loki


nice wordage, just learned that one from a friend a while back.

I typed "misextrapolating definition" into Google (because it wasn't on Dictionary.com) and 2 sites came up.

One of them was a post by Loki on different forums using the word :D

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?amp;showtopic=8613&view=findpost&p=124139

[PowerSwede]

jee wizz... you guys are too smart for me... i already do drink milk pwo because it tastes better :) and i'm bulking. i didn't actually read the article, but couldn't the sugars in milk help with an insulin spike?

Whey in itself is so rapidly absorbed that it causes an insulin spike, add milk and you'll blunt that spike since the total GI is what is important, not the individual nutrients GI values. Everything you ingest causes an insulin response, the faster the absorbtion, the higher the response.

[BringnIt]

Extrapolate means to infer something from the current amount of knowledge, it's used in math mostly. A very simple example would be if you're following a pattern that has seemingly defined properties you could infer that it would follow along that same course.

[BringnIt]

Also, by itself, how is whey protein by itself insulinogenic? Insulin responds to high levels of glucose in the blood. Even gluconeogenesis occurs only during a homeostatic imbalance (usually only due to low blood levels of glucose and an inadaquate supply of carbs), so that wouldn't make sense for that to increase insulin levels. I don't really understand that, do you have studies/links on the topic you can post?

[Lok7y]

Informative thread, thank you very much! Rep for Loki



I typed "misextrapolating definition" into Google (because it wasn't on Dictionary.com) and 2 sites came up.

One of them was a post by Loki on different forums using the word :D

http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?amp;showtopic=8613&view=findpost&p=124139

It should be mis-extrapolate(d). I'm just too lazy to hyphenate.

[Lok7y]

Also, by itself, how is whey protein by itself insulinogenic? Insulin responds to high levels of glucose in the blood. Even gluconeogenesis occurs only during a homeostatic imbalance (usually only due to low blood levels of glucose and an inadaquate supply of carbs), so that wouldn't make sense for that to increase insulin levels. I don't really understand that, do you have studies/links on the topic you can post?

All protein is insulemic (to varying degrees). An influx of amino acids relays a similar (albeit weaker signal); your pancreatic beta-cells will still respond to release insulin. Think about it: insulin is a storage hormone. You need to store those amino acids somewhere--they can't all just "chill out" in the blood stream.

[Lok7y]

If you want proof:


This study shows that a common serving of a commercially available protein supplement resulted in a marked insulin response with no glycemic response because of the lack of carbohydrate content. Consumers need to be educated that the way these products are marketed could be misleading.

From:

Parcell, M. Drummond, D. Christopherson, et al. Glycemic and insulinemic responses to protein supplements. J Am Diet Assoc; 104:1800-1804 (December, 2004).

[pu12en12g]

-----> insert the ever important pre-workout whey protein reminder here

:D

[BringnIt]

Sorry Loki, I didn't mean that there was no insulin spike with whey at all, but I didn't think it was a large amount. I know milk is supposed to cause a large insulin spike for whatever reason, any idea which would produce a greater spike?

[Lok7y]

Sorry Loki, I didn't mean that there was no insulin spike with whey at all, but I didn't think it was a large amount. I know milk is supposed to cause a large insulin spike for whatever reason, any idea which would produce a greater spike?

All dairy products are disproportionately insulemic relative to their glycemic load. Of all protein sources (with the possible exception of tuna if I recall--lord knows why), whey is the most insulemic (far more insulemic than MPI or any other milk-derived protein). However, milk actually has galactose in it, so a glass of milk is going to be slightly more insulemic than a whey shake.

[Lok7y]

For some reason, I see good results by drinking skim milk during my workout (when bulking) :eek:.

No idea why..

There's more to milk than macronutrients and calcium.

[BringnIt]

Well, here's the concept I'm having just a bit of trouble wrapping my fingers around, so if you can help explain it I'd appreciate it (sorry to keep bothering you on this topic). If you down a whey shake immediately prior to hitting the gym it takes 45-60 minutes for amino acid levels to peak, correct? If you're done training within 45-60 minutes, amino levels are peaked in your blood stream already, your body should be able to use them, why would your post-workout shake HAVE to be fast-digesting for optimal benefits? As you said, there's more to milk than macronutrients and calcium. Wouldn't those additional benefits be... beneficial?

Also, would 6 grams of casein compared to 20+ grams of whey really slow down the digestive rate to the same as just 20 grams of casein? Obviously it would slow it down, but would it slow it down as much?