Ergomax LMG Log : Spoonman [Archive] - Bodybuilding.com Forums

spoonman

03-29-2005, 11:40 PM

I started an Ergomax cycle yesterday and just took my 4th dose. Here are my starting stats:
191 lbs. 5'11" 18-20%BF (corrected estimate)
I have been working out nearly 2.5 years....been on a bulk since September. I just got off of a CEE cycle one week ago and deflated from ~195 to 191. Never used any PHs/AAS

Training
--------
I am going to start training a lot more often now as I think the Ergomax will help my recovery significantly. I am going to try to stick to this plan:
Monday, Wednesday -
10:00 am - Chest, Back, Bis, Tris
5:30 pm - Legs, Abs, Shoulders, Traps

Tuesday, Thursday
6:30 pm - 1 to 2 hours of Kickboxing/Jiu Jitsu. Great cardio.

Friday, Saturday - I am either going to do the same as monday and wednesday or just do 1 workout friday and the other saturday.

Sunday - Off day

I also do a warmup on the bike at medium intensity for 5-10 minutes and a cool down at the end for a few minutes. As far as sets go, I do 4 for the large muscle groups, 3 for the medium sized and 2 for biceps. I also do one warmup set before each exercise at about half weight.

Diet
----
I'm gonna be taking in massive amounts of protein from Egg Whites, Soy, Whey, Cassein as well as tons of food. I am really eating a lot. I do not have a set diet, but I do not eat anything remotely bad. No refined carbs, no high fatty foods, etc. I eat pretty much constantly...probably 10 small meals a day.

Supplements
------------
Tons of green tea (at least 4 glasses)
Green Source - vitamin world's multi vitamin (kicks ass!)
BCAAs - pre and post workout
Fish Oil - 1000mg X 3 spread out
Total EFA (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sun/efa.html) - One serving in morning and one before bed
VPX Redline (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/vpx/red.html) for preworkout boost.

Dosing
------
10mg - ~9:00am
10mg - ~9:00pm
I will also be taking 500mg NAC and a Grapefruit Extract pill with each dose. Grapefruit Juice is said to aid absorption...we will see.

PCT
----
Nolva - I plan on running a 3 week PCT. Probably 40/20/20 but I may alter it as I feel needed.
PrimaForce Pro Liver (http://bodybuilding.com/store/prima/liver.html) - I will be taking 2 dosages which adds to 2000mg NAC and 1000mg Milk Thistle.
KreAlkalyn - I am going to start my first ever cycle of KA and Im hoping this will help me maintain my gains.

I have attached some starting pics and frankly I think that lighting is not too great and makes me look real fat (not to say that I'm not). This is starting at 191...I will try to take pics every week to judge progress and I will always take them in the same location so that it is easy to tell.

Also, I am getting anywhere from 7.5-8.5 hours of sleep each night. Thats pretty much all I can think of at the moment...questions are welcomed, but PLEASE no side arguments or clogging of this thread with off-topic posts.

40-Yard Dash_2

03-30-2005, 07:18 AM

first off, good luck! I'm not hatin' on you, but your not 12-15% bf. I'd say you're more in the range of 17-20%. Just my opinion though, I'm sure you will get many more.

KrNPumP

03-30-2005, 07:39 AM

what dose are you running? 10, 20mg?

far as your BF goes, i agree with above. 18-20%.
which method did you use to get your measure?

i recently sacrificed 5 bottles of my 'stash' for one LMG.
i hope the trade was worth it.

wish you the best of luck with this cycle.

secondsight

03-30-2005, 09:05 AM

I'm subscribing to this thread. I'm curious to see how your LMG cycle goes. I plan on doing my LMG cycle sometime in May/June. I'm on a PCT right now that's why I need to wait until then. Good luck.

thebrakes

03-30-2005, 09:35 AM

good luck! i love posts with before and after pics. if you get a chance, take some measurements (cold, flexed) for even more value.

and yeah, 18-20%...at ~15% you can start to see abs.

spoonman

03-30-2005, 11:29 AM

Day 3 Update
-------------
I took my fifth dose this morning and knocked out my usual Wednesday morning workout. I didnt really feel the LMG on the first 2 days, aside from the increase in libido. But, today it really kicked in. I got great pumps and I lifted a lot heavier weight than normal. I do 4-5 sets on large body parts and 3 sets on the smaller ones, and 2 on biceps plus warmup. I was doing flyes and I started off at my normal weight and increased by 15lbs. each set...By the end of the last set I felt like I could have pushed the weight up even further. My strength on this product is simply incredible!!! I weighed myself in and I was just a tad under 193...so about a 2 pound gain so far.

I really have never measured BF so I had no idea. In the right light, however, I have very subtle ab definition. I am taking two 10mg doses, spread 12 hours apart.

O...and thanks to thebrakes for all of the help in preparing me for this cycle.

spoonman

03-30-2005, 09:51 PM

I just got back about 2 hours ago from doing my second workout today. I did Shoulders, Traps, Abs and Forearms plus 20 minutes on the bike. Tommorow I am going to work legs and do cardio instead of going out to train.

I just wanted to report that in the PM today, I weighed in at 195....thats up 4 lbs. so far (I measured weight AM and PM before Ergo and it was 191 both times). It may be because all I could get in this morning before my workout was a couple scoops of protein, some green tea and some oats. But this is still very impressive...I hope to hit 200 by the 7th or 8th day but we will see.

rockybalboa2

03-30-2005, 11:31 PM

so does anyone know what exactly this stuff is? also are you noticing any loss of apetite or any other sides?

really_stupid

03-30-2005, 11:41 PM

You really should have cut before using

spoonman

03-31-2005, 12:47 PM

I haven't noticed any sides at all, really. The increase in libido is about all.

I probably should have cut but the way I see it is, it's easier to cut if you have more muscle to start with. When I get done with this, I'm gonna run PCT with some KreAlkalyn and then run an extreme 2 week cycle of clen to really shed some fat.

Raz65

03-31-2005, 12:56 PM

I'm going to follow this too. Maybe you could take a few more pics with better lighting as I can hardly see you in the pics.

not_big_enuf

03-31-2005, 01:01 PM

subscribe... gotta follow the boys doin Ergomax LMG and see if my results so far are typical or not.

raymondh

03-31-2005, 01:03 PM

subscribes. what are your current stats on lifts? bench, incline, military, barbell press, lat pull, squat, deads, etc..

spoonman

03-31-2005, 04:07 PM

I'm going to follow this too. Maybe you could take a few more pics with better lighting as I can hardly see you in the pics.

I will take some more pics next week in the same location to see progress but I am going to go ahead and attach a few I just took.

subscribes. what are your current stats on lifts? bench, incline, military, barbell press, lat pull, squat, deads, etc..

I never really do maxes and I don't do barbell bench much. I couldn't really tell you. I am not going to take precise measurments, but instead I will tell you what I notice. When I did my upperbody workout yesterday, the gains in strength were already evident...I pushed about 30-45 pounds heavier for reps on cable flyes then I normally do. We will see how strength progresses. I am about to go hit legs and do some cardio...I will weigh myself and post back later.

Peace,
Matt

spoonman

03-31-2005, 07:14 PM

Day 4 Update
-------------
Weight - Just under 197...so about a 6 lb. gain so far. Thats 2 lbs. a day. Now, most of this must be water but its still a great gain. I am responding even better than Swing did so far and it looks like I will easily hit 200 by the end of the first week. Today I did legs and on leg extensions, I just kept adding weight until I eventually did the max for the machine (305) for 6 reps with perfect form. I usually do about 170 for 8 reps by the last set so this was an incredible change. It felt like the handles were gonna rip off but my legs had no problem with the weight...my brother even thought it was pretty crazy. Also, on calf raises, I had some great stength gains. This stuff rocks!!! I'm so glad that I was able to pick up 5 bottles of it.

c++342

03-31-2005, 09:00 PM

great job, glad i picked me up a bottle

spoonman

04-01-2005, 11:42 AM

Day 5 Morning update
---------------------
Knocked out a Chest/Back workout with an 8-minute warmup on the bike. I am going to go back and hit arms later. Pretty good strength today but I worked out about 30-40 minutes after I woke up so it was hard to do with my morning meal/supps on the stomach. My weight was 196...but this is after minimal amounts of food and water so it should go up a couple pounds today. Also, still no sides...everything seems fine. I will report back after I hit arms...Later.

spoonman

04-02-2005, 05:03 PM

Day 6 Update
-------------
Weight: 198 (up 7 pounds)

Today was a Shoulders/Traps/Legs/Abs day but I also hit Bis and Tris because I didnt get them in yesterday. The workout went great and I am still seeing some increase in stength. The thing is, I like to switch up which exercises I do so that I keep my body guessing so I don't know my exact max on all of the different exercises. However, I am definately doing more weight then I was able to before. With the LMG, I can continually increase weight until the last set but without it, I would have to drop some. I am finally taking a day off tommorow and hopefully I will hit 200 by Monday. I may do 20-30 minutes on the bike or some type of cardio cause I just feel so much better when I get some good exercise in every day. I saw that this guy Skillz was taking up to 50 or 60mg in a day and I will tell you, thats just not necessary. I am going to stick with 20mg throughout the cycle.

Skillz

04-02-2005, 05:10 PM

Keep it up bro, if you eat the correct way, you should lean out on this cycle, I did.

Bammy

04-02-2005, 05:16 PM

This is not meant to be rude, but 21% body fat is not leaned out.

Spoonman, 7 pounds in 6 days is incredible man!

RCyea

04-02-2005, 05:24 PM

sup Spoon, Im on day 20 of my cycle and i can tell you that i have leaned out alot in the past week. The first 2 weeks i experienced some mild water retention. It seemd this last week that i am holding very little if any at all . In fact i feel and look alot more vascular and defined. I feel this stuff does lean you out quite a bit. So I guess Ergo could be compared to Winny or Anavar?

spoonman

04-02-2005, 05:30 PM

Thats good to hear as I am going to need to really shed some fat after this cycle. Perhaps thats why they call it "The Lean Mass Generator" ;) Many people have been reporting the extremely lean gains.

Skillz

04-02-2005, 06:12 PM

This is not meant to be rude, but 21% body fat is not leaned out.

Spoonman, 7 pounds in 6 days is incredible man!
When you go from 24% to 21% thats leaning out to me.

raymondh

04-02-2005, 08:23 PM

how are the strength gains coming?

spartanstrength

04-02-2005, 08:59 PM

How's your blood pressure? I heard some people having elevated levels. If you do, start taking hawthorne berry, Co Q 10, and some ester C. That should help keep it down so as not to cut ur cycle short.

not_big_enuf

04-02-2005, 09:03 PM

yep, i'm leaning out nicely during my cycle. great stuff. blood pressure has been good. i gotta check it again though.

spoonman

04-03-2005, 12:40 PM

I gotta check my BP again...I took it right before the cycle and it was 116/67 but that was at the wal-mart tester. I plan on using the same one again....hopefully today.

Stength is gaining in nearly every exercise. One thing I really notice is that without it, I would have to lower the weight after a couple sets to keep the same amount of repititions and perfect form, but with the ergomax,I can continually increase weight.

I have one question though. On the bottle it says to take it with food, but many times I take it when I wake and do not have food on my stomach. Is this a big deal?? I know you need to take vitamins with food because they attach to nutrients but is that the same with ergomax and similar products or do they just say that because some people have weak stomachs and would throw it up?

raymondh

04-03-2005, 12:50 PM

[QUOTE=spoonman]
Stength is gaining in nearly every exercise. One thing I really notice is that without it, I would have to lower the weight after a couple sets to keep the same amount of repititions and perfect form, but with the ergomax,I can continually increase weight.

QUOTE]

what kind of strength gains on we talking about here? 20lbs on bench per week?

spoonman

04-03-2005, 12:51 PM

ahh...I have never been a fan on barbell bench because I like the symmetry that dumbells give you. I also rotate doing flyes and press every other chest workout. I went up dramatically on the flyes (at least 30 lbs.) and 5 lbs. per dumbell on press.

spoonman

04-03-2005, 06:05 PM

update...checked BP and it's still at a normal level.

Iron___Stoner

04-03-2005, 06:28 PM

no offense but i can tell from your pics that your body fat is way higher than 18%-20% more like 25-30%. trust me, ive been there myself

Skillz

04-03-2005, 06:50 PM

no offense but i can tell from your pics that your body fat is way higher than 18%-20% more like 25-30%. trust me, ive been there myself
I dont agree, when you see him in the 2nd set of pictures he looks leaner. I would say 22% tops. Im guessing 20%.

spoonman

04-03-2005, 07:42 PM

no offense but i can tell from your pics that your body fat is way higher than 18%-20% more like 25-30%. trust me, ive been there myself

It's hard to tell with pics because of lighting. In certain lighting, you can see some subtle ab definition but in others, I look like a complete fat ass. You are dead wrong if you think I'm about 30%....theres simply no way, my friend. I think Skillz' guess is a lot more accurate.

Anyhow, the bodyfat is irrelevant...I'm just tracking progress with this product for you guys' benefit.

Skillz

04-03-2005, 11:01 PM

It's hard to tell with pics because of lighting. In certain lighting, you can see some subtle ab definition but in others, I look like a complete fat ass. You are dead wrong if you think I'm about 30%....theres simply no way, my friend. I think Skillz' guess is a lot more accurate.

Anyhow, the bodyfat is irrelevant...I'm just tracking progress with this product for you guys' benefit.
I deff think you should bulk up(clean bulk). If you cut it doesnt look liek you would have much muscle.

spoonman

04-03-2005, 11:53 PM

Thanks for the advice...but I know what to do. Last summer, I was 165 ripped and I have gained a significant amount of lean mass since then (been bulking). Right now I am trying to do a clean bulk on this ergomax and after this cycle, I am going to cut to the 180-190 range (I expect to get up to at least 210 by the end of this cycle). We will see how things go but I frankly do not need any tips as to whether or not I should cut or bulk and how much muscle I have.

I am either going to continue this thread into my cutting cycle or start a new one for it as soon as I'm done with Ergomax.

Skilton

04-04-2005, 04:16 AM

Deffo 30% Bf all that sagging flesh gives it away.

Just kidding mate seems everyone decided to have a go at your BF I would jump in there too. Good log, Good gains. I never worry about fat on a bulk its muscle we are looking for, the fat can come off later.

spoonman

04-04-2005, 11:27 AM

DAy 8 Morning Update
---------------------
Weight : 198 (up 7 pounds)

My weight will probably go up a couple pounds throughout the day as I had very little on my stomach at the time I weighed in. I noticed the pumps today...they are really starting to kick in. It seems like NO2 where the effect builds up for a week. Gains and stength are still pushing up...especially in legs today. This week I am going to hit Shoulders/Traps/Legs/Abs in the morning. I am going to vary my workouts each week so that I keep my body guessing.

MusclesFlyers

04-04-2005, 07:52 PM

no offense but i can tell from your pics that your body fat is way higher than 18%-20% more like 25-30%. trust me, ive been there myself

There is no possible way he's near that. He's not even above 20%. I would say he's anywhere between 14-18%. Looks as though he doesn't have much of a developed chest area nor abs thus creating the illusions he's bigger than he is. But no way is he above 20%.

Keep up the great work Spoonman. Excellent log!

Chris72

04-04-2005, 07:59 PM

There is no possible way he's near that. He's not even above 20%. I would say he's anywhere between 14-18%. Looks as though he doesn't have much of a developed chest area nor abs thus creating the illusions he's bigger than he is. But no way is he above 20%.
You live in a fantasy world. He’s 18+ for sure, I say even well over 20%.

vegHead

04-04-2005, 08:09 PM

hey matt good work so far I was just wondering how long you were going to be running this cycle for? I just managed to buy a few bottles and I cant wait to try it in a few weeks I'm gonna attempt to keep a log. Also one other question how old are you? just curious to find out the ages of all the people take ergomax. thanks bro and good luck

Skillz

04-04-2005, 08:31 PM

vegHead

04-04-2005, 08:49 PM

Tplant, make sure you let me know when you start a log :)

sure thing bro itll probably be in like 3 weeks or so. Itll be the first log I ever keep on here

Skillz

04-04-2005, 08:52 PM

sure thing bro itll probably be in like 3 weeks or so. Itll be the first log I ever keep on here
nice, I will def. follow it.

vegHead

04-04-2005, 08:55 PM

nice, I will def. follow it.

Yeah i was cutting but then 2 weekends ago I got alcohol posining and ended up losing 13 lbs over one weekend. So now Im gonna try to get back up to my old weight and then after that I will start the ergomax probably just gonna end up doing 4 weeks at 20 mgs but Ill keep looking for more info

Colinballin23

04-04-2005, 09:00 PM

good log you got going spoonman and I'm going to agree with everyone else who spoke up no way you are near 30% body fat. He's definately around 20% keep up the good log spoonman it's great so far.

MusclesFlyers

04-05-2005, 12:23 PM

You live in a fantasy world. He’s 18+ for sure, I say even well over 20%.

I still doubt he's over 20. It's possible, but I just don't really see it. He should get his hands on some calipers

spoonman

04-05-2005, 03:43 PM

I am running this cycle for 30 days. And please, no more discussion about the bodyfat. Whatever it is, it's much above what it will be in about 6 weeks ;) I would get calipers but the margin of error is so great that I think I'm better off guessing than taking the time to measure it. And please tplant, save all the posts for your thread...no offense but I know how much I hate reading through irrelevant posts to follow a log which is why I'm trying to keep this one unclogged. Now,

Day 8 Evening Update
---------------------
Weight is still at 198. I had a great Chest/Back/Arms workout and really noticed a lot of strength on my arms and lower back today. By the end of my lower back workout, I was doing the full weight on the machine. I really notice a lot of endurance as far as the strength goes...I am increasing weight and still keeping perfect form for the same amount of reps. As I said, the pumps are really kicking in...my forearms were pumped to the max after doing arms. Everythings going great so far.

Day 9
-----
Today I am going to take a break but I will probably do a little cardio later. I want to give my body rest because when I hit the weights, I really push to failure and did an especially hard Chest/Back/Arms workout yesterday. I am going to take another set of pics soon.

Skilton

04-05-2005, 03:45 PM

Lets see more of the Ergomax log. There seems to be a lot of guess the BF. How is the product going spoonman

spoonman

04-06-2005, 01:32 PM

Day 10 Morning
---------------
I hit shoulders/traps/legs/abs today at noon. The timing of my workouts will be a little different today cause i have a lab at school and i'm working from home. I had real good pumps today as usual. Checked my BP and it was 120/69 which is still on the normal side. One side effect is this stuff is kinda ****ing with my mood a bit. Sometimes I get down for an hour or two...but no big deal. I was at about 197 today and I haven't gained much as far as weight goes in the last 4 days. although, I think I initially put on some water and now I am losing a bit of water/fat and gaining some muscle so my weight is staying steady. Im still a bit disappointed on how my weight is stuck so starting today, I am gonna switch up my workout. For a few workouts, I am going to be doing 15 reps of lighter weight and see if that gets me past the hump. I am not going to be going to absolute failure like before as I think part of the reason I'm not gaining is because my body is under so much stress from these intense workouts.

Skillz

04-06-2005, 01:46 PM

spoonman

04-06-2005, 01:52 PM

I ran that program several months back and it was pretty good but I don't like a few things about it:
1) I had to carry around a piece of paper to determine what weight I should be doing
2) I like to push myself hard and your not pushing to the limits very often with HST
3) I like to switch up the exercises I do to keep my body guessing and with HST, you gotta stick to a few

I have had better success with just switching things up myself instead of following a strictly regimented plan. In the past, switching to 15 reps has helped and it should this time too.

Skillz

04-06-2005, 01:57 PM

when I start my new log Im going to try something new.

MusclesFlyers

04-06-2005, 02:10 PM

when I start my new log Im going to try something new.

Are you going to give the new MAX LMG a shot? :rolleyes:

pu12en12g

04-06-2005, 02:11 PM

when I start my new log Im going to try something new.

OH THE SUSPENSE ! ! Will you actually be lifting some freeweights this time ? :rolleyes:

spoonman

04-06-2005, 02:19 PM

Cmon guys...please don't start an argument with skillz in this thread...I want to keep it clean and to the point for ease of reading by people that are trying to follow my results.

not_big_enuf

04-06-2005, 02:20 PM

Skillz is goig to be the new pope with his love of christianity!

Ok, i had to get a jab in there somewhere....

OH THE SUSPENSE ! ! Will you actually be lifting some freeweights this time ? :rolleyes:

spoonman

04-07-2005, 03:17 PM

Day 11 Update
--------------
I'm still sitting at 197 and I don't know what the hell is wrong..normally I would gain a pound or two in this time with the amount I'm eating. My diet has been perfect--I have been eating a mid-sized balanced meal every 1-2 hours. I have been about the same weight for a week now. So, I have decided to lower the volume of training cause I may be putting my body in too much shock. As I said earlier, I switchted to 15 reps for my last workout and I'm gonna stick with that. I did not do a chest/back/arms workout yesteday because I am going to give my body a rest. My plan is to take today off (I will definately get some cardio in-I havent seen my gf in a week and shes coming over), then friday I will hit chest/back/arms then I'm gonna take off Saturday and Sunday and devise a slightly altered workout schedule...I didn't want to up the dose but now I'm thinking about it. I guess I will just stick it out until next week and see what happens.

MusclesFlyers

04-07-2005, 04:24 PM

Good job Spoonman. By the way, how old are you?

spoonman

04-08-2005, 11:40 AM

Day 12 Update
--------------
I hit Chest/Back/Arms today with my new 15 rep range workout. I am still stuck at 197-198 lbs. I do, however believe that I am losing fat while gaining muscle so that is probably the reason for the constant weight. The pumps have really set in. After doing lat pulldowns and bench press, my arms were incredibly pump. I just can't wait to get up to 200...if it will even happen. I have been doing 10 minutes of cardio before each workout and today I did it on a cardio rowing machine we have at my gym. Once again, I am going to be taking Sat. and Sun. off in hopes that the rest will accelerate my gains. I will probably just do a little cardio, if anything on those days.

AcuDoc

04-08-2005, 11:45 AM

Good job Spoonman. By the way, how old are you?

18

MusclesFlyers

04-08-2005, 12:02 PM

18 years old and using Ergomax? Not flaming you by any means, but what made you decide to use Ergomax LMG at 18?

spoonman

04-08-2005, 12:44 PM

Thanks alot AcuDoc...I didn't know this was a pickup game, I thought he asked me the question.

I will be turning 19 in one month. I chose to use Ergomax because it SEEMS to be the most forgiving in terms of sides. I didnt want to mention age because I didn't want this log to turn into a warzone. So, please do not neg. rep me and start commenting on this guys. I want this log to stay clean for others' viewing pleasure.

AcuDoc

04-08-2005, 12:55 PM

To the other 18 yr olds who are following this log and thinking taking steroids is a good idea you owe it to them to out line all the potential problems that comes with taking exogenous hormones before your own endocrine system is fully developed.

Since you've followed other threads where this has been clearly laid out it should be no problem to give a quick run down.

I don't care if you take the stuff (which isn't a ph BTW, it is a steroid) and damage yourself, that is your choice. You've read the potentials and still decided to do it. There are others though who may not think about the repercussions of a cycle and think because you're doing it it must be ok.

spoonman

04-08-2005, 01:08 PM

MusclesFlyers

04-08-2005, 01:10 PM

I will be turning 19 in one month. I chose to use Ergomax because it SEEMS to be the most forgiving in terms of sides. I didnt want to mention age because I didn't want this log to turn into a warzone. So, please do not neg. rep me and start commenting on this guys. I want this log to stay clean for others' viewing pleasure.

It's cool bro. we're old enough to make our own decisions and I support yours. At least you didn't run out and grab any juice you could get your hands on..Good luck with everything

spoonman

04-08-2005, 01:20 PM

It's cool bro. we're old enough to make our own decisions and I support yours. At least you didn't run out and grab any juice you could get your hands on..Good luck with everything

Yea, the way I saw it was, it is the safest possible option. My BP is normal, no test. atrophy and I haven't reall had any other sides to speak of, except for the mood swings, which are controllable. ALRI claims that there is no shutdown until week 12, but there obviously is SOME. I may cut this off short...we will see.

44GOLFER

04-08-2005, 02:32 PM

It's cool bro. we're old enough to make our own decisions and I support yours. At least you didn't run out and grab any juice you could get your hands on..Good luck with everything

Yes, there are definately worse things you could be doing.
Spoonman, I would bet you'll be fine.
It's been said a million times on this board.......
short cycle....proper PCT.
Stick to your plan.
You'll be the one to decide if it was worth it or not.
Be safe, good luck.

spoonman

04-08-2005, 02:47 PM

P Dub

04-08-2005, 03:29 PM

Spoonman, Have you read about the program, "Westside for skinny bastards"? I am on it now, and am having huge gains in strength and size so far.

http://www.defrancostraining.com/articles/archive/articles_skinny-bastard.htm

It's a good read, and the program is great. Nothing is set in stone, it gives you many things to choose from each week. I like it bc I can always switch it up. Also, its 3 days so there is plenty of time for recovery (you will need it to, it beats the crap out of me.)

AcuDoc

04-08-2005, 07:02 PM

Thanks Golfer...I really think that I won't have problems, considering the compound. After all, I'm not shooting up roids and 30 days shouldn't be a big deal. I just wanted a little comfort as I get a little down sometimes on this stuff and start to worry.

AcuDoc and some others would have me thinking I'm playing russian roulette. Not that its not risky, but I think the degree is sometimes exaggerated. Anyway, lets stick back to the log.

Kids, Don't take this ****!!!

In a way it is a roll of the die. Do you know before hand whether or not your test levels will recover completely? Do you know if you are prone to MPB? The problems rarely show up during the cycle, they show up after. I've read so many posts about teenagers who did a cycle of phs and then had screwed up hormone levels for months afterwards. Do a search, there are plenty. At 18-19 your test levels are the highest they will ever be. Eat like it's your job, lift, and sleep enough and you'll grow plenty fast.

The Westside For Skinny Bastards is a fantastic program that will def. get you growing and boost strength.

BTW whether a steroid is oral or IM makes little difference to how it will effect your HPTA.

I've said what I felt needed to be said and won't be posting on your log again.

waitlifter82

04-08-2005, 10:46 PM

Thanks Golfer...I really think that I won't have problems, considering the compound. After all, I'm not shooting up roids and 30 days shouldn't be a big deal. I just wanted a little comfort as I get a little down sometimes on this stuff and start to worry.

actually injectables are much safer, IMO... they don't **** up your liver or lipid values as much as a methylated steroid

spoonman

04-09-2005, 12:13 AM

Ok thanks for the input guys..I didnt want the log to turn in this direction so let's end the PH/AAS and teenagers discussion.

It is risky business PERIOD.

More log and pics coming soon...

not_big_enuf

04-09-2005, 06:40 AM

sweet, i'm excited to see pictures. BTW -- don't end your cycle short. you've already done what going to be done. do a proper PCT, get some bloodwork and go from there. only YOU can prevent forest fires... oh wait, wrong subject... LOL.

anyway, can't wait to see some pics and see the progress. you may be shocked at what you see. then again, you may be the same. what's the net gain in lbs again? how have your lifts been?

good log so far, glad to see it and best of luck!

spoonman

04-11-2005, 12:20 PM

I didnt post over the weekend but here is a run down.

Day 13 and Day 14
------------------
I took Sat. and Sun. off to recover as I think my workouts were just too extreme, even with the Ergomax. On saturday, I finally hit the 200 mark, which I am very glad to say!! It seems that the reduction in workload is what I needed. I was not giving my body enough rest time because I thought I could increase the workload dramatically on Ergomax. Now, I am gonna stick to the same split, at 15 reps per set, increase the number of sets a bit (3-6 sets depending on size of muscle group) and keep workouts on seperate days. I will hit the full body twice a week for a total of 4 workouts.

Day 15 Update
--------------
I am starting to feel it on my joints a bit. I have had slight pains in my knees and ankles when I do certain things. Back cramps have also set in at times but I have started using taurine. These sides are really minimal, barely anything to even mention. Today I hit shoulders/traps/legs/abs and got an amazing pump in my legs. I was literally almost walking with a limp. I have always had large quads/hams and its starting to get to where my pants/shorts are getting snug around the thighs compared to the wasit, even at this BF. My waist is around 34" and I didnt take measurements but now I am fitting into clothes that I couldnt. The Ergomax is definately aiding in fat loss, even with the insane amount of food I am eating...it really is "The Lean Mass Generator"!!! I will be taking some pics tommorow or wednesday which will be at the half way mark....I think you guys will see a big difference.

spoonman

04-12-2005, 03:38 PM

Day 16
-------
Today and yesterday I weighed in at 199...Im really trying to get to around 205-210 and now I dont know if its going to happen. I have been eating like a madman. I eat a balanced meal (veggies, lots of protein and complex carbs) every 1-2 hours and Im still not gaining much weight. I do, however, think that I have lost at least a few pounds, if not 5 or more of fat. I don't know if I should up my dosage or what. Anyhow, I am going to do about 2 hours of boxing and grappling today. Im getting back on the Tues/Thurs. boxing/grappling routine at least for the next 3 weeks as I will be fighting in this drunken boxing tournament at the end of april.

not_big_enuf

04-12-2005, 06:01 PM

you'll get there man... easy.... JUST EAT

spoonman

04-13-2005, 09:57 AM

Well I ended up doing a little over 3 hours of training last night. It was WAR!!! I am training for an upcoming competition so I just pushed myself past the limits. My body is reminding me of it today. This morning I had some slight pain in my lower stomach. (prostate?) I think I am going to cut this cycle off short as I do not like the risks I am taking. I pray to God that it has not messed with my body permanently. I will probably run this cycle for another week and then cut it off around day 24 or 25 and start the nolva. I have to box on April 29th and I have an issue with my nosebleeding. The elevated BP definately does not help. I was going to go in and hit chest/back/arms this morning but I just used the time for some extra rest because I definately needed it. I will probably go workout around 7 if I feel up to par by then.

40-Yard Dash_2

04-13-2005, 12:22 PM

I hope your prostate is okay. Keep us posted!

neuron

04-13-2005, 12:28 PM

prostatic hyperplasia will be felt while urinating (via the urethra being slightly occluded). stomach pain has nothing to do with the prostate. which part of your stomach is hurting?

spoonman

04-13-2005, 12:30 PM

very lower part kind of to the right....I dont think its that big of a deal. I dont have pain when I urine. I think the stomach (and other pains) are due to the fact that I worked my ass off last night for 3 hours. It was probably the hardest I have ever trained in my life. What would prostatic hyperplasia feel like exactly? would it be painful??

EDIT: I just felt the stomach pain this morning, it has gone away since.

neuron

04-13-2005, 12:33 PM

spoonman

04-13-2005, 12:42 PM

Im having no urine problems....so, should I assume that this product has not effected my prostate?? Also, I know I have no STDs.

I may have a minor hernia...that seems like what it is but it is not disabling in any way. I have never had a hernia but it seems like a possibility considering I was wrestling with 250 pound guys going balls to the wall after having trained 2 hours already. I am the type of guy that doesn't complain or mention anything unless if it is disabling and this definately is not. However, I am going to go get a checkup and see the doctor when I'm done with this cycle. The help is appreciated man.

neuron

04-13-2005, 12:51 PM

No problem.

spoonman

04-13-2005, 09:56 PM

Day 17 Update
--------------
I went to workout around 8:00pm with my girlfriend today, at her gym. I had a great chest/back/arms workout. Strength was down but that was definately due to the grueling workout I did yesterday. My body was extremely phased this morning. Im still sore...could barely walk up stairs and that is rare. Anyway, Im gonna update with some progress pics.

Also, note that I could tell a difference today in size and strength due to the fact that my body probably thought it was dying last night...I worked out that hard. Anyone that has boxed or wrestled for even 2 minutes knows what kind of workout it is....its like sprinting and doing 1 rep maxes simultaneously. We also did tons of lunges, squats to jumps and other stuff that worked wrestling stances. Also, we did 100 bicycle crunches and then had to raise our legs 6" above the ground for about 5 minutes and get a medicine ball dropped on it. It was just intense...thats all i say.

spoonman

04-15-2005, 04:57 PM

Day 18 Update
--------------
I went and trained boxing/jiu-jitsu again and it was another relentless 3 hour workout. This cardio is really burning some fat, but I'm sticking right at 200.

The weird thing is, usually I'm down a few pounds after a workout like that...so maybe I will get above 200 this weekend. The workout was long and hard but I pushed it out. From now on, I wont need to work my thighs with weights as the workouts we do are good enough. Im just gonna hit calves/shoulders/traps/abs later today if I recover from last night in time.

I haven't posted any leg pics yet because its usually hard to get good ones. Anyway, heres a couple from after last nights workout.

Newport Surfer

04-15-2005, 06:33 PM

Well I ended up doing a little over 3 hours of training last night. It was WAR!!! I am training for an upcoming competition so I just pushed myself past the limits.

No offense but exactly what competition are you training for?

raymondh

04-15-2005, 10:26 PM

boxing maybe? Lots of sports require power and size other than bodybuilding.

spoonman

04-16-2005, 10:49 AM

No offense but exactly what competition are you training for?

It's nothing really serious and the bodybuilding is my personal venture, its not related to the boxing. My buddy is having drunken boxing at his dojo where we get a whole bunch of people together and fight and drink. Just a casual little tournament.

not_big_enuf

04-16-2005, 11:12 AM

that sounds pretty cool actually. drinking and boxing... wait a second, I do that most of the time when i drink anyway... lol

Bammy

04-16-2005, 04:49 PM

It's nothing really serious and the bodybuilding is my personal venture, its not related to the boxing. My buddy is having drunken boxing at his dojo where we get a whole bunch of people together and fight and drink. Just a casual little tournament.

That doesn't sound too fun. After having my nose broken once, I would never want to go though that again. Every time you get less pretty. lol

spoonman

04-16-2005, 05:07 PM

well the opponents wear headgear and i believe he makes us use the 16 oz. gloves which are a little heavier. you can still mess someone up if you hit em real hard though but we only do one 2 minute round per fight so its real casual.

spoonman

04-17-2005, 11:27 AM

vegHead

04-17-2005, 04:48 PM

Day 19 & Day 20
----------------
This week has been brutal. I took friday and saturday off to rest and recover. On Saturday (day 20), I was at 205, thats up 14 lbs. in 20 days and I have definately lost some fat. Nothing new to report except for that huge increase in weight. Today, I am going to finally get a shoulders/traps/abs/calves workout in.

damn dude 14 lbs in 20 days thats awesome man. hey one question Ive heard that while taking ergomax sometimes you get extremely painful pumps in the lower back i was wondering if you have had any of these yet? Also do you take it with a meal or after? just curious cause im still trying to totally plan mine out. thanks

spoonman

04-17-2005, 05:22 PM

yea Ive been getting the cramps/pumps. I have been taking some taurine which seems to help to an extent but you kinda gotta just rough it out...its not that big of a deal. I usually take my first dosage with breakfast and the second about 12 hours later with some food. I dont want to get flamed, but I smoke weed on the weekends and it always gives me pumps. I think it is because it dilates blood vessels (similar to an NO product), which is why it aids glaucoma. The weed really set off the back discomforts.

AcuDoc

04-17-2005, 06:49 PM

It's nothing really serious and the bodybuilding is my personal venture, its not related to the boxing. My buddy is having drunken boxing at his dojo where we get a whole bunch of people together and fight and drink. Just a casual little tournament.

Are you drinking on cycle?

BTW pot is estrogenic, not the smartest thing to do, esp. on cycle.

40-Yard Dash_2

04-17-2005, 06:54 PM

Are you drinking on cycle?

BTW pot is estrogenic, not the smartest thing to do, esp. on cycle.

Yeah dude, I can't believe you are smoking and drinking; especially, while on-cycle, but after all, it is your body. Have fun!

spoonman

04-17-2005, 07:03 PM

I am not drinking since the compound is methylated. Plus, drinking isn't the way to get gains regardless. As far as the myth that pot is estrogenic and may cause gyno, I think its complete BS.

Heres a quote
"A brief report concerning the appearance in gynecomastia in three male pot smokers published in 1972 sparked a number of subsequent studies that examined the relationship between marijuana use and testosterone levels. Gynecomastia, or “male breasts,” however, is not a common side effect encountered with marijuana use.

Instead, the condition is usually the result of an imbalance between testosterone and estrogen in men, with something causing an increase in the latter. Since marijuana has no estrogenic activity, it isn’t likely to cause this condition."

Marijuana and Bodybuilding http://www.illpumpyouup.com/articles/marijuana-and-bodybuilding.htm

c++342

04-17-2005, 07:05 PM

im currently on ergo too. no drinking but i do smoke weed everyday

spoonman

04-17-2005, 07:15 PM

I am saving it for the weekends. The biggest problem with herb is the lack of motivation while on it. I used to be a big pothead but I have cut down a lot. I don't like the haze you stay in when you smoke it everyday. If it wasn't for the way it ****s with your mind, I would smoke all the time. I started smoking about the same time I starting working out and it really doesn't mess with gains much, but it doesn't help. The stuff people are posting about pot and gyno is just ludicrous....I don't think D.A.R.E would even take it that far.

AcuDoc

04-17-2005, 07:35 PM

Drug effects on male sexual function.

Smith CG.

PIP: The reproductive system is considered to be particularly vulnerable to the effects of drugs. Hypothalamic neurotransmitters are sensitive to drugs that alter their synthesis, release, or action; disruption of these pathways changes the levels or patterns of secretion of the pituitary gonadotropins. Drugs also exert direct action on the gonadal functions of androgen production and spermatogenesis. Drugs that decrease testosterone levels produce a multitude of effects on male reproduction. Neuropharmacologic agents that either inhibit central nervous system (CNS) activities (e.g., analgesics, anesthetics, sedatives, tranquilizers) or stimulate CNS activities (e.g., antidepressants, stimulants, hallucinogens) modify the hypothalamic-pituitary control of the gonadotropins and prolactin. The changes in luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and prolactin result in changes in libido, impotence, inability to ejaculate, testicular swelling, and gynecomastia. Narcotic drugs exert their primary effect on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis and their secondary effects on the gonads and sex accessory organs. Narcotics decrease gonadotropin secretion and stimulate prolactin secretion, both of which are inhibitory to male sexual function. With marijuana, the primary drug effect is at the level of the hypothalamus, with subsequent effects on gonadotropins and testosterone. Additional studies are needed on the association of marijuana with disruption of reproduction to resolve conflicing findings. The drugs most likely to affect suxual function are those that act on the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems. Antihypertensive drugs are likely to interfere with autonomic transmission, resulting in impotence or failure of ejaculation. However, it is difficult to determine whether this increased incidence of impotence is entirely a drug side effect of a complication of blood pressure changes. Chemotherapeutic agents, especially anticancer drugs, can cause prolonged but reversible infertility. Other drugs, including marijuana derivatives, phencyclidine, and alcohol, are believed to inhibit testosterone synthesis.

PM
ID: 7127928 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

No abstract Hyperprolactinaemia in patients with suspected cannabis-induced gynaecomastia.
Lancet. 1980 Feb 2;1(8162):255. No abstract available.
PMID: 6101701 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Effect of pharmacological agents on male reproduction.

Chowdhury AR.

PIP: The main groups of drugs that affect male libido, potency, sperm production, structure and function are summarized and their mechanisms described when known. About 15% of the 200 most commonly prescribed drugs can have adverse effects on male reproduction. Sedatives, tranquilizers, hypnotics, antiandrogens and the common antihypertensive methyldopa can depress libido. Spironoacetone has been reported to impair libido, potency, sperm count and motility, although reversibly. The phenothiazines and tricyclic antidepressants may induce prolactin secretion and consequent gynecomastia. Narcotics and hallucinogens influence male sexual performance. Morphine and methadone decrease LH and testosterone, and increase prolactin. Cannabis, hashish and marijuana initially increase libido and potency, but chronic use causes sexual inversion. Chronic alcoholism also may upset testosterone metabolism, causing testicular atrophy. Cyclophosphamide, used for nephrotic syndrome, and nitrofurans, used as food preservatives, cause direct damage to seminiferous tubules. Synthetic oganochlorine pesticides, especially DDT, have also been reported to damage spermatogenic cells directly, when injected in mice. Steroids such as ACTH, hydrocortisone and dexamethasone may inhibit steroidogenesis in animals.

PMID: 12341906 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Effects of drugs on the male and female reproductive systems.

Fody EP, Walker EM.

Infertility, permanent or temporary, resulting from drug-induced injury is an important clinical problem. Many common used drugs are potentially toxic to gonads. It is well-known that estrogens are toxic to the male genital system, but androgens may also produce infertility. Anovulation may also be a consequence of exposure to sex steroids. Cimetidine regularly produces hypospermia in men; phenytoin does so occasionally. Marijuana has been shown to be a gonadal toxin, while the effects of lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) remain controversial. The most significant group of drugs that may injure the gonads is the cancer chemotherapeutic agents, of which the alkylating agents are the worst offenders. Prediction of infertility induced by these agents may be possible based on the duration of therapy and the patient's age and sex.

[Review and update: marijuana and reproduction]

[Article in Spanish]

Pardo G, Legua V, Remohi J, Bonilla-musoles F.

PIP: Longterm use of marijuana has been found to cause physiological changes that can alter individual reproductive potential. The effects of marijuana depend on the dose and can include death from depression of the respiratory system. Longterm effects are however particularly hard to assess. Marijuana is absorbed rapidly and eliminated very slowly. The active principle, delta-9-tetrahidrocannabinol (delta-9-THC), is highly liposoluble and fixes to the serum proteins, passing to the lungs and liver for metabolization and to the kidneys and liver for excretion. As with estrogens, there is an enterohepatic circuit for reabsorption and elimination. 90% is eliminated in the feces, 65% within 48 hours. Because of the enterohepatic circuit and liposolubility, elimination requires 1 week for completion. The other important biotransformation of the active principle is hydroxilation; the hydroxilated derivatives are responsible for the psychoactivity of cannabis. Cannabis affects both neuroendocrine function and the germ cells. Studies on experimental animals have indicated that THC can cause a decline in the pituitary hormones follicle stimulating hormone, luteinizing hormone, and prolactin, and in the steroids progesterone, estrogen, and androgens. Human studies have shown that chronic users have decreased levels of serum testosterone. Because steroidogenesis can be restimulated with human chorionic gonadotropin, it appears that THC does not directly affect steroid production by the corpus luteum, but that its action is mediated by the hypothalamus. Because of its potent antigonadotropic action, THC is under study as an anovulatory agent. The same animal studies have shown that ovulation returns to normal 6 months after termination of use. High rates of anovulation and luteal insufficiency have been observed in women smoking marijuana at least 3 times weekly. THC accumulates in the milk. Animal studies have shown that THC depresses the enzymes necessary for lactation and causes a diminution in the volume of the mammary glands. In recent studies, significant amounts of the drug have been detected in both mothers' milk and the blood of newborns. Animal studies indicate that THC crosses the placenta, achieving concentrations in the fetus as high as those in the mother. Animal studies also demonstrated increasing frequency of abortions, intrauterine death, and declines in fetal weight. The effects were probably due to an alteration in placental function. A human study likewise showed that marijuana use during pregnancy was significantly related to poor fetal development, low birth weight, diminished size, and decreased cephalic circumference. Congenital malformations have been observed in experimental animals exposed to THC. Declines in sperm volume and count and abnormal sperm motility have been observed in chronic marijuana users. In vitro studies show that THC produces a marked degeneration of human sperm.

PMID: 12281277 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Yeah, great stuff especially helpful to post cycle shutdown. You might want to consider laying off it at least until PCT is finished.

Bammy

04-17-2005, 07:38 PM

I totally agree with these guys busting your chops. Look at it this way:

If you are really serious about bb, you shouldn't be smoking and drinking.

If you are not really serious about bb, you shouldn't be taking steroids. They should be used by people who are very serious about training, and with good experience and development. I'm not ussually too judgemental, but I think you need to work on your judgement skills.

kris4153

04-17-2005, 07:43 PM

spoonman you make me laugh.

spoonman

04-17-2005, 07:46 PM

I'm not trying to start an argument here as I'm trying to keep this log to the point.

There is no doubt that

1) Weed doesn't help bodybuilding in any way
2) It effects the reproduction system negatively

however the degree of damage is what I have an issue with and I don't agree that with the original "marijuana is estrogenic" statement.

Lets be realistic, AcuDoc, the caffeine, ephedra and everything else a lot of people take probably has just as big of effect as weed does. Secondly, all of the studies you posted are regarding drugs, in general, with the exception of the last one, which is regarding effects of longterm use. It seems that all you do is nitpick on everyone else's regimen and try to find something negative about it. I appreciate your concern for everyone's well being, but you would be better off making your case at the local PTA meeting.

AcuDoc

04-17-2005, 07:57 PM

Can you read?

"With marijuana, the primary drug effect is at the level of the hypothalamus, with subsequent effects on gonadotropins and testosterone. Additional studies are needed on the association of marijuana with disruption of reproduction to resolve conflicing findings. The drugs most likely to affect suxual function are those that act on the sympathetic and parasympathetic systems."

"Hyperprolactinaemia in patients with suspected cannabis-induced gynaecomastia."

"Cannabis, hashish and marijuana initially increase libido and potency, but chronic use causes sexual inversion. Chronic alcoholism also may upset testosterone metabolism, causing testicular atrophy."

"Marijuana has been shown to be a gonadal toxin"

AcuDoc

04-17-2005, 08:00 PM

"....the caffeine, ephedra and everything else a lot of people take probably has just as big of effect as weed"

Are you serious?

c++342

04-17-2005, 08:03 PM

i smoke everyday and make great gains

AcuDoc

04-17-2005, 08:28 PM

i smoke everyday and make great gains

My point wasn't about gains, it was about it's effect on the endocrine system which is important when dealing with PC recovery. Oh, yeah, I forgot I need to keep that for the next PTA meeting when we discuss "PCT and gonadal recovery"

spoonman

04-17-2005, 09:00 PM

You have a good point AcuDoc, theres no doubt about it.

PCt is probably the worst time for it.

kris4153

04-17-2005, 09:46 PM

i smoke everyday and make great gains
Your parents must be so proud! :p

waitlifter82

04-17-2005, 10:18 PM

very funny change in directions this review took

spoonman

04-18-2005, 11:43 AM

yea...back to the point. this isn't the place to argue.

Day 21
-------
I worked Shoulders/Traps/Abs/Calves at home and it went well. Everything is going good.

Day 22
-------
10:30am workout - Chest/Back/Arms. I warmed up on the bike for 10 minutes and got a ridiculous pump in my legs to where I was walking a little funny. I did some flyes and some rows and got a great pump off that too. This stuff is really great. My weight is sticking around 204-205. It seems like my weight goes up on my rest days and is more stable on workout days (which is usually every weekday). Saturday seems to be the day that my weight raises. I am approaching my last week on this stuff and I really had a great time on it. I am thinking of taking 3 doses for day 28 and 29 so that I get off of it a day early and have a few days PCT before my boxing match(es). I want to get my BP low so that my nose doesn't bleed easily.

DerekG

04-18-2005, 01:33 PM

wow i just read this whole thing and i think i speak for other bb'in teens by sayin u make us look bad. your training regimen makes no sense... whole body in 1 day, u might as well giant set squats with deadlift, bench press and cleans lol... ur 'cardio' is also overtraining extensively. with all this stuff ur doin u should have some serious gains but lookin at those pics from start to finish u look exactly the same. w/all this money u use on supplements u should be mr olympia by now.. haha me and my roomie are laughin about how 'if we had that kind of money' the possibilities would be endless..

by the way what kind of training are u doing? chest / back / arms in 1 workout doesnt make any sense... the intensity of each of those warrants at least 2 days doing arms in 1 and the chest / back in another... how many sets are u doing for these things and how many exercises.. also can u post at least an example of what kind of increases in weight u are getting from this stuff?

spoonman

04-18-2005, 01:42 PM

LOL...thanks for the tip man. If you would have "read this whole thing", you would see that I hit my full body 2 times per week as I have switched up my routine since the start. I probably was overtraining for that first week, but I'm doing better now. I also havent taken pics in a while and with the lighting, its hard to judge.

And by the way, w/all this money u use on supplements u should be mr olympia by now is the single most ignorant comment I have ever read. Anyone that has half the bodybuilding experience you claim to have is now laughing at your comment. Stay in the Teen section, please.

DerekG

04-18-2005, 01:59 PM

obviously u didnt catch the sarcasm there..

This is with normal ****, protein powder, some crea and good diet and training...

Oh by the way...

U will never get on my level

spoonman

04-18-2005, 02:06 PM

Simply stunning...I could never hope to get on your level, "G"! It seems that your ego and pride is a level above you already.

Go hijack some other threads cause I frankly dont give a damn what you have to say. This is a log. I created it to help other people and show them my results/progress....not to boast or compete.

DerekG

04-18-2005, 02:10 PM

well the point wasnt to hijack ur thread but just to show that all the money u are spendin on this stuff isnt necessary for a teenager. im same age as u, but i did read thru the whole thread and skipped a lil but i didnt see the part where u changed up ur routine but that first stuff was just funny... and post some new pics and stats bout ur weights and training methods that u are usin.

spoonman

04-18-2005, 02:19 PM

I know that all these supplements aren't necessary, but they do help. Also, the only reason I made a workout schedule with such high intensity is that I thought the ergomax would allow for it. I will take some pics soon...but I might wait another week til the end of the cycle. Also, its hard for me to judge exact strength increases because I vary what exercises I perform each trip to the gym. also, about half way through, I switched to a 15 rep range. I think there are more size/weight gains than strength but the strength has definately gone up a lot.

40-Yard Dash_2

04-18-2005, 02:22 PM

did you max out before you started taking the LMG? If so, how much did you gain on your bench press? I gained 30 pounds when I ran my cycle, and I kept 25 pounds of it. I'm just trying to get an idea of how much strength you gained.

DerekG

04-18-2005, 02:23 PM

ok well for actual strength gains u can check a 1 rep max calculator to get an idea if ur really goin up, also can u post a sample workout that uve done? chest / back / arms seems unreasonable to do in 1 session espec. when u are tryin to do 2 in a day. what is ur leg day like? seeing legs with anything else doesnt make sense unless ur leg day is somethin a chick would do... leg extensions + leg curls dont = a leg workout. put post a workout n lemme see wut i think

RCyea

04-18-2005, 02:25 PM

DerekG your level is that of a average bodybuilder that is beginning. how old r u bc that look is pretty average to me . If your going to put spoon down at least show us something. I think u should shut ur mouth. keep up the good work spoon the gains will come.

40-Yard Dash_2

04-18-2005, 02:28 PM

I'm not a big fan of maxing out during a PH cycle, but I just adjust my weight accordingly as I gain strength throughout the cycle. Then, post-cycle I max out.

DerekG

04-18-2005, 02:30 PM

19, 250 offseason mann ... rca man post a pic

spoonman

04-18-2005, 02:34 PM

I should have maxed out to see but I never really even do barbell bench much. I can not tell you exact amounts but stength is up about 30 lbs on large bodyparts and about half that on smaller ones...that is for reps ofcourse. Strength endurance is mainly up a lot i.e. I can do the same weight for several sets with perfect form. I usually do squats, leg press, lunges, etc. for legs. Lately, we have been doing some serious stuff in my jiu jitsu class, so much so that I am gonna stop working legs, except for calves in the gym. Plus, my legs are my strong part and they are getting too big. I have trouble fitting into pants/shorts because the thigh part fits tight.

spoonman

04-18-2005, 02:35 PM

19, 250 offseason mann ... rca man post a pic

I dont want to see anymore competing/arguing/pic posting in this thread...it is a log. People shouldnt have to skin through a whole bunch of useless posts to see what they clicked the thread for.

If you've got something to prove, take it to the Teen section or the post your own pictures forum.

DerekG

04-18-2005, 02:37 PM

haha yeah, good ****, when the pants stop fittin its time to move just to athletic shorts n sweats

post an actual workout u did for legs, exercises, sets, reps.. anythin else important aight

RCyea

04-19-2005, 03:24 PM

I have no pics to post. You win derek u r bigger i only weigh 195

not_big_enuf

04-19-2005, 03:38 PM

These are similar to what I got for my 30 days LMG cycle. PCT, for me, is working great with Rebound XT and Lean Extreme and a little Milk Thistle. Don't feel supressed and no strength loss at all so far. Also, you'll feel leaner after a few days off of LMG and start to look a little less bloated. i didn't feel that bloated while on, but i was. after starting PCT, i realized it. keep us updated and great progress. stay off the other stuff and really commit when the time's right bro... great job so far!

I should have maxed out to see but I never really even do barbell bench much. I can not tell you exact amounts but stength is up about 30 lbs on large bodyparts and about half that on smaller ones...that is for reps ofcourse. Strength endurance is mainly up a lot i.e. I can do the same weight for several sets with perfect form. I usually do squats, leg press, lunges, etc. for legs. Lately, we have been doing some serious stuff in my jiu jitsu class, so much so that I am gonna stop working legs, except for calves in the gym. Plus, my legs are my strong part and they are getting too big. I have trouble fitting into pants/shorts because the thigh part fits tight.

spoonman

04-21-2005, 04:01 PM

Day 23
-------
I did an extremely intense boxing workout. I worked some technique stuff for about an hour...got real tired. Then, I went and ran 5 wind sprints. After that, I did about 30 more minutes of training and punching on mits.

Day 24
-------
4-20 was a good rest day :) Just hung out with buddies and took it easy. I really need a day of recovery after the Tues and Thurs. boxing workouts. I would like to hit the weights more, but I feel the recovery is more important as I do not want to overtrain.

Today I am going to go train again. I have a fight next friday so I will really be busting my ass this week. My cycle is coming to an end. I will definately get at least 1 more full body workout in before it is over. My weight is still around 205, so up 14 lbs. so far. I also think that I have lost some fat, as I am more define, but it very well may be the fact that I put on so much lean mass thus lowering my BF that way.

Nathan1

04-21-2005, 04:44 PM

spoonman

04-21-2005, 04:49 PM

ok so just for example....what weight dumbbells do you use for flat/incline db press?

oh, and you really should stop telling people to "go to the teen section" as you are a teen yourself. it's just annoying.

just because I am a teenager by age does not mean that my maturity is at that level.

I will say it again....I switch up exercises so often. I am probably going to do dumbell bench next time (on Saturday). I will let you know then. I have switched my rep range so the weight will obviously be lighter. I hope to get 15 good reps with at least 75 lbs....we will see.

Nathan1

04-21-2005, 05:12 PM

[QUOTE=spoonman]just because I am a teenager by age does not mean that my maturity is at that level.QUOTE]

hmm.....drinkin, smokin weed, doin steroids at 18...sounds like a typical immature teen to me. my last post was a simple observation, take it like a man.

btw, tell me again why you weigh yourself 18 times per day? lol. jk.

spoonman

04-21-2005, 09:18 PM

you make a valid point.

BUT....as I have said many times, please do not post anything in this log that does not contribute to it positively. Making irrelevant comments doesn't help.

And please don't even reply to this...I do not need another useless post that someone has to browse over to get to the real content. If you don't like me or think I make bad decisions, fine. There is a back button on the top left of your browser.

Now, back to the log...

Day 25
-------
I just got back from an intense boxing workout. I did a lot of technique and working hitting on mits. Then we did some leg workouts that help with grappling which kill the thighs. Its pretty much lunges and squats with variation. After that, I did some more technique and some sparring. Then, I hit on the mits with my trainer and really worked on the areas I need improvement on. After that, I did 3 wind sprints and 50 crunches, with a wrestling grip. The grip helps it work the entire core more. After this, I was completely exhausted. The two workouts this week have been the hardest I've worked out ever in my life and I've done a lot - Competitive Hockey, Football and more. I'm gonna try to recover so that I can hit Shoulders/Traps tommorow. I really don't even need to workout legs/abs anymore as the training annihilates em. Weight was 206 when I got to the dojo today.

spoonman

04-23-2005, 12:31 PM

DAy 26
-------
Well, yesterday was a recovery day because of the intense workout I had thursday. I went out bar-hoppin with a bunch of buddies, but didn't drink. I ended up passing out at my boy Jack's place so I didnt get my second dose of the day. It will work out though, because my bottle was short 1 pill.

Today I am gonna hit shoulders and traps (probably at home) and then go hit chest/arms/back tommorow in the gym. After that, I am gonna need Monday to recover for another crazy workout on tuesday. My boxing match is this Friday so after that I will be able to lift more weights and my tues/thurs. training workouts will just be some good cardio, nothing over the edge.

NukeDukem

04-23-2005, 03:15 PM

Julien

04-24-2005, 12:47 PM

obviously u didnt catch the sarcasm there..

This is with normal ****, protein powder, some crea and good diet and training...

Oh by the way...

U will never get on my level HAHAHAHAHA man its time to take your "level" to the next level ... nothing personal

spoonman

04-24-2005, 12:49 PM

Im sorry if I am being one of those typical idiots who doesn't read stuff that is already answered in the thread... but... :D

Your weight has gone up around 15lbs. Just from looking in the mirror, is your bodyfat around the same? Appears to be lower? Appears to be slightly higher? Just wondering.

Well I haven't posted pics in quite a while. I have 3 more days on this stuff and I will post some pics at the end for comparison. BF is definately going down.

Julien

04-24-2005, 12:51 PM

@spoonman what type of PCT you gonna run ?

spoonman

04-24-2005, 12:55 PM

@spoonman what type of PCT you gonna run ?

Reading the original post of the thread is usually a good place to start.

In the future don't ask questions that are easily answered with materials already given.

spoonman

04-24-2005, 05:37 PM

I ended up resting on Day 27.

Day 28 (today), I went out and did a moderate intensity training session for boxing. I am gonna try to hit Shoulders/Traps at home if I can get the energy. My weight is staying around 205 still. I cant wait to hit Chest/Back/Arms tommorow....it may be my last workout of the cycle.

not_big_enuf

04-24-2005, 05:50 PM

up 14 lbs! sweet! how can you argue with those type of results. now for a good PCT and you'll be getting there. PCT is always a pain, and like most, I bet your just waiting to get done with it so you can get on the way to your cut or bulk or whatever.

congrats on the hard work and the solid gains! gonna try to pick up a little Max LMG??? can't wait to see the pics.

spoonman

04-24-2005, 05:54 PM

AcuDoc

04-24-2005, 07:14 PM

yea man...I cant wait to get that PCT over so I can get cut up for summer. From observations like no test. atrophy and no decrease in libido, it seems that the shutdown with this is very low. Im gonna use 60mg nolva the first 3 days so I imagine that I wont lose much of the gains and I will get back to normal real quick.

FYI not having a decrease in libido does not mean you're not shut down. Test shuts you down but gives you a fantastic libido is just one example.

One big enemy in PCT is cortisol so that needs to be kept low with diet and supps.

spoonman

04-25-2005, 08:18 PM

FYI not having a decrease in libido does not mean you're not shut down. Test shuts you down but gives you a fantastic libido is just one example.

One big enemy in PCT is cortisol so that needs to be kept low with diet and supps.

Any suggestions AcuDoc? I got diet in lock but are there any specific supps?
Also, how do you suggest I take liver protectants? I normally take them in the morning but I plan on taking 2000mg NAC per day and 1000mg Milk Thistle with the Pro Liver product. Should I split the dosages or take it all at once?

Day 29 Update
--------------
I hit Chest/Arms/Back today and also hit shoulders/traps. This was my last workout on the cycle aside from tommorow which will be boxing training. Still getting great pumps and my appearance is starting to look good. I have some pics from last night that I will post when I get a chance. I am also gonna take some pics within the next week whenever I can get someone to help me out. One more day left. Im ready to get PCT done and over with so I can cut.

spoonman

04-26-2005, 11:00 PM

Day 30 (Last Day)
------------------
I weighed in at 204 today but this is probably due to only getting 6 hours of sleep last night :( I went in and trained today for boxing and did some wind sprints. We also did some good leg and abs work. This is going to be my last intense workout as I have been training for a small competition thats on friday. I will probably take tommorow to rest and maybe hit some light weights on thursday and a light cardio boxing workout.

I am about to take my last pill of ergo. I am kind of glad to be getting off this stuff. I loved the gains but I won't miss the depressed mood I get in sometimes, the lower back pains and feeling like I'm on restriction. Also, I want to get this PCT done so I can shed some fat. The cycle was definately worth it, so long as I don't have any lasting sides. What a great product this is...... From now on, I plan on staying natural...the ergo gave me a great boost but I care so much about my health that this **** just isn't for me. I think too much about stuff and I don't like anything that can do permanent damage. Maybe my opinion will change once I cut, but for now, I think I have a pretty good base (although the pics aren't a good indicator).

Also, I took my first serving of CEE today with my postworkout shake. Im hoping the CEE will help me keep the gains. For PCT, I am going to run 60mg Nolva for the first 3 days, then 40mg for the remainder of the first week. Then I'm gonna kick it down to 20mg for two weeks after that. I will also be taking 2 serving of pro liver for a total of 2000mg NAC and 1000mg Milk Thistle and I will continue using hawthorn berry.

NOTE: I started taking hawthorn berry about halfway through the cycle. I was having nosebleed problems that started before I took ergo that were the result of boxing. I then continued to train and get it knocked open. The ergo elevated my BP, but not to a dangerous level. Before taking the hawthorn, I couldnt go 2 days without having a gushing nosebleed, even on days I didnt box. As soon as I started taking the hawthorn, it improved dramatically. I have only had a couple nosebleeds since then and the severity of them has been about 10% because of the lower BP. My nose seems to be almost completely healed now thanks to the hawthorn...I almost thought I was going to have to stop with the ergo. In conclusion, hawthorn berry proved to be a GREAT product for me. I recommend it to anyone doing a cycle.

skillgannon

04-27-2005, 01:27 AM

pics?

spoonman

04-27-2005, 09:52 AM

soon hopefully...I have to get a partner to go in the gym with me. Gonna try to get some taken tommorow.

Julien

04-28-2005, 05:20 AM

can't wait to see your pictures and results

Baumer

04-28-2005, 02:43 PM

spoonman

04-28-2005, 04:02 PM

spoonman

04-28-2005, 04:31 PM

I just want to let you guys know that smoking on cycle may actually be a good thing. Marijuana decreases BP by expanding blood vessels, which is the reason it aids in treatment of glaucoma. Whenever I smoke, it is like working out...there is more blood flow and I get pumped up. Also, it is good to take the edge off that you can get with the crazy moods and stress relief. Now, I'm not telling anyone to go out and use it, but I personally think it helps. Moderation is the key, as with everything.

AcuDoc

04-28-2005, 05:48 PM

40-Yard Dash_2

04-28-2005, 06:00 PM

Nathan1

04-28-2005, 06:18 PM

NOTE: I started taking hawthorn berry about halfway through the cycle. I was having nosebleed problems that started before I took ergo that were the result of boxing. I then continued to train and get it knocked open. The ergo elevated my BP, but not to a dangerous level. Before taking the hawthorn, I couldnt go 2 days without having a gushing nosebleed, even on days I didnt box. As soon as I started taking the hawthorn, it improved dramatically. I have only had a couple nosebleeds since then and the severity of them has been about 10% because of the lower BP. My nose seems to be almost completely healed now thanks to the hawthorn...I almost thought I was going to have to stop with the ergo. In conclusion, hawthorn berry proved to be a GREAT product for me. I recommend it to anyone doing a cycle.

Uhmmmm....no, that musta been some good ole fashioned placebo, which by the way i love...placebo IS and CAN BE a good thing. It was for you. Hawthorn berry takes 2-4 weeks to kick in. And how can you say that getting nosebleeds was caused by boxing? in saying that, you're saying it has nothing to do with blood pressure. so to clarify what the above paragraph says is that you used to have nosebleeds from boxing and having it "knocked open", not from blood pressure, then you took ergomax and it raised your blood pressure, so now you are fighting high blood pressure bleeds and the bleeds from getting "knocked open". then you took hawthorn berry and it close to stopped your high bp bleeds and somehow prevented you from having the nosebleeds that were developed somehow in the past from boxing. wow, that's some product. :S sense the sarcasm. it makes no sense.

bottom line: hawthorn berry is proven effective only AFTER a period of AT LEAST 1 week. unless you used the liquid form, which is very rare.

And one more thing, what kind of weights/equipment do you have at home?

spoonman

04-28-2005, 08:58 PM

Celery seed and hawthorn extract are good for BP. L-Theanine, skullcap and valerian root (as well as many others) are good for stress relief. Marijuana on cycle or post cycle is just idiotic.

Your right..it isn't good but it also isn't all bad. Those things may help but I do not think they have as quick and drastic of an effect.

Uhmmmm....no, that musta been some good ole fashioned placebo, which by the way i love...placebo IS and CAN BE a good thing. It was for you. Hawthorn berry takes 2-4 weeks to kick in. And how can you say that getting nosebleeds was caused by boxing? in saying that, you're saying it has nothing to do with blood pressure. so to clarify what the above paragraph says is that you used to have nosebleeds from boxing and having it "knocked open", not from blood pressure, then you took ergomax and it raised your blood pressure, so now you are fighting high blood pressure bleeds and the bleeds from getting "knocked open". then you took hawthorn berry and it close to stopped your high bp bleeds and somehow prevented you from having the nosebleeds that were developed somehow in the past from boxing. wow, that's some product. :S sense the sarcasm. it makes no sense.

bottom line: hawthorn berry is proven effective only AFTER a period of AT LEAST 1 week. unless you used the liquid form, which is very rare.

The thing is, it was set off by boxing. By the way, High BP can cause nosebleeds by itself and will make existing nosebleeds more irritable and worse. I read of a guy on Ergomax with BP a little high got a nosebleed from straining himself doing bench press. When my BP was down, the nosebleeds were rare and when they did occur it was just a small amount of blood. I could then stop them by just sniffing...I didnt even have to elevate my head. When the BP is up, they are more frequent and gush blood out for a good while.

And.....I also read that hawthorn berry does not effect you for a couple weeks. So today, I was thinking back and I smoked for the first time on cycle right around the time I got the hawthorn and then a few more times within that week. Through that time and up until 2 days ago, I had no more problems and I have not smoked since Sunday. Today, when I woke up I sneezed and it cause my nose to go into a bad nosebleed. Later, at school, I brushed my nose and it started gushing. Its weird cause this is day 2 of PCT and my BP is still high (although I havent checked it). Today, I could tell it was way up, I could literally feel the blood pushing in parts of my body...especially my neck. So, I came home after school (and working out) and took a couple small bong rips of some pot. It fixed the problem. I went to boxing training just after that and took hits to the face with no bleeding. Had I not smoked, I would have been bleeding everywhere.

not_big_enuf

04-28-2005, 09:24 PM

oh how we justify weed

spoonman

04-28-2005, 09:35 PM

Its just an observation.....I'm not justifying anything. Honestly, I didnt want to smoke today. My BP was so high that it was almost painful, I really needed relief or might have had to go the doctor...luckily this helped me.

AcuDoc

04-29-2005, 07:29 AM

I do martial arts and sparring with an opponent who was high would be rather fun. You must get your ass kicked on a regular basis. No wonder you get "knocked open" while training.

spoonman

04-29-2005, 11:13 AM

You talk like a man that is under 21 years old, AcuDoc. You know nothing about me other than what I post...why do you have to make assumptions? It seems like you like looking for people to point your finger at and say "dumbass". If you had any maturity and self confidence, you wouldn't act this way.

I do not fight while high, I do not workout while high and I no longer even have the desire to get high! I am simply using it for medical reasons...it treats my BP with wonders and the effect lasts for several days.

EDIT: out of curiosity, what type of martial arts are you into?

AcuDoc

04-29-2005, 11:39 AM

I do not fight while high, I do not workout while high and I no longer even have the desire to get high! I am simply using it for medical reasons...it treats my BP with wonders and the effect lasts for several days.

So, I came home after school (and working out) and took a couple small bong rips of some pot... I went to boxing training just after that and took hits to the face with no bleeding.

So you took a couple of hits before training but don't work out high? How do you square that circle?

I'm just calling it how I see it. When you post a log and make dumbass statements then expect to be called on it. Get a thicker skin.

BTW I do mantis style kung-fu

spoonman

04-29-2005, 11:51 AM

So you took a couple of hits before training but don't work out high? How do you square that circle?

I'm just calling it how I see it. When you post a log and make dumbass statements then expect to be called on it. Get a thicker skin.

BTW I do mantis style kung-fu

Alright man but the comments are unnecessary and they do not help anyone in anyway. I created this log to help others, not to be judged. I really don't want to clog it up with useless bickering. So, lets end it.

The type of martial arts I do is mainly functional stuff. Basically, the stuff you see in UFC. Its what you would use if you got in a street fight - I do lots of boxing and also some Muay Thai kickboxing and grappling (a blend of Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu and form wrestling). The guy that trains me just got back from training with the Top Team in Florida,...they are the best in the world.

If anyone is in the Fort Worth area and looking to get into this stuff, I know the best trainer around and I can get you some free classes and good deals.

Julien

04-29-2005, 12:06 PM

I don't mean to hijack the log or hate on you, but since the cycle is over I figured I'd mention this now. By looking at your before pics, it seems as though you were on your way to starting to build a decent foundation naturally, but were nowhere near the level you should be at before using PH/PS/AS especially at your age. This is one of the reasons that PH/PS were banned and that AS have got such bad press recently, too many people, specifically young ones looking to get that quick fix. Bodybuilding to the level where you start taking performance enhancing substances should be built on extreme dedication and commitment, which by seeing that you are drinking, smoking weed, you are not there yet. It seems that you are on your way to that point, but still from it. You should be busting your ass for another 4 years first. real talk he should bust his ass 4 years more when you gotta reach goals you can always improve .But I think us youngs are in a steady hurry ... no matter at what level we are ... I understand why spoonman wanted to give max lmg a try .... he could take AAS or GF's or slin or whatever the hell bottom line is that he just gotta be responsible with the means you use to the ends I personally almost never tell anybody of my friends that I'm constantly supplementing... people are fools .... I often hear from friends that they guess I'm on the juice or whatever ... Not a lot of people really know what they're talking about especially when it comes to aas ... If making a log of max LMG when you're 19 put you in trouble, then just keep the log for yourself lol just take upon yourself its nothing just keep doing it and you'll make it with or without gear

@spoonman so in a word what would you qualify your max lmg experience I'm curious

plywood

04-29-2005, 12:15 PM

"It's okay to get high sometimes, but all the time, that's not fine!"

The first person to identify the source of this quote gets repped!

Nathan1

04-29-2005, 12:18 PM

"It's okay to get high sometimes, but all the time, that's not fine!"

The first person to identify the source of this quote gets repped!

the word "troll" comes to mind first, then secondly, YOU...oh my bad same thing...by the way, this has what to do with a supplement log?

plywood

04-29-2005, 12:24 PM

Sorry, didn't know posting one fun post was frowned upon.

Read my posts. I am new, but not a troll.

:rolleyes:

spoonman

04-29-2005, 01:02 PM

"It's okay to get high sometimes, but all the time, that's not fine!"

The first person to identify the source of this quote gets repped!

That sounds like an Arnold quote...not that you have any rep to spread anyway LOL.

and Julien: just so you know, this is Ergomax, not MAX. I had a great experience with it. I gained 14 lbs. which I have held on to of lean mass.

And yes, immediate gratification is a problem...it's human nature. We want what we want, right now. And once we get what we want, we want more. It's life. Even though I did this one cycle, it will probably be my last. I would rather just go at it with stuff like CEE and not have any of the worries you have when ****ing with this stuff....but thats just me.

spoonman

05-02-2005, 11:28 PM

Julien

05-03-2005, 05:13 AM

spoonman why you didn't start cutting and stack some XXX rush with norsynephrine and only then running the ergo cycle the results would have been more visible

Nathan1

05-03-2005, 09:36 PM

looks like ya lost some fat...that's good, and sounds like ya gained some strength over the cycle's time....let's just hope for your sake that was one of the $39 bottles. good job i guess? maybe you'll really be able to notice after you cut, what do you think?

Bastilla

05-03-2005, 10:34 PM

PCT Day 6 Update
-----------------
Today I hit Chest/Back/Arms with my bro. My last workout was Thursday and I hit upper body at my university gym, which is awesome. Everything has been going smooth. My weight was at 206 today and on my last day of Ergo, it was at 204 so thats a good sign. Im gonna stay at it with high cals for at least another week and then start to phase into a cut (as you can see, I need it!). These pics didnt turn out too good, but I'm gonna post em anyway. I look like a fatass but now that I have a pretty solid base, cutting will be easier.

Bro dont get mad, but I saw your pictures, and you really should not be using anabolics. It looks like you need to focus and nutrition basics/execercise. To be quite honest, it doesnt even look like you work out, you just look...pudgy

I guess everyone wants fast results

NukeDukem

05-04-2005, 12:44 AM

Bro dont get mad, but I saw your pictures, and you really should not be using anabolics. It looks like you need to focus and nutrition basics/execercise. To be quite honest, it doesnt even look like you work out, you just look...pudgy

I guess everyone wants fast results

Thats pretty harsh man! I wouldn't go that far. I would just say that he probably has a solid base, but has no way to show it off because there are about 20-30 pounds of fat that need to be eradicated for him to do so. Yeah, he could have gotten to his size naturally. You are right about everyone wanting fast results. The question I pose though, is What is so wrong with that? The only person this guy has to answer to is himself. He isn't a professional athlete taking a shortcut or a natural bodybuilder trying to one-up his competition. He is just some dude who wants to get in better shape. That is a personal decision. Personal sense of accomplishment might be the only thing really hurt by this cycle, and he never said he was in a competition with you for "most personal sense of accomplishment" :)

spoonman

05-04-2005, 01:07 AM

Thanks for the replies guys. Honestly, I really wasn't happy at all with the pictures I got. The camera isn't the greatest quality and the lighting is bad. Anyone that has tried to take pics knows that they usually don't do justice, which may be partly due to self perception, but still. I do have more fat then I'd like to, but my genetics play a role because I have big hips and lovehandles, as you can see. Even when I was ripped, I wore size 34 pants. I went from 165 and real cut to where Im at now which is 205. I have been bulking since September of 2004 and eating constantly. Despite what the pictures look like, I do have a really good frame and I even have a bit of ab definition. I never thought I would use any product like this, but when I heard about how subtle the sides were, I decided to take the plunge.

let's just hope for your sake that was one of the $39 bottles. good job i guess? maybe you'll really be able to notice after you cut, what do you think?

It was a $39 bottle but what do you mean by that?? Is there another type??

I am going to slowly transition into a cut pretty soon here. I will post pics when I get pretty cut up and have access to a high resolution camera. For now, here is a pic from June 6th of last year.

All I can say is you'll see...

NukeDukem

05-04-2005, 01:20 AM

but my genetics play a role because I have big hips and lovehandles, as you can see.

Oh, you're gonna hate me now. :D

Your high bodyfat plays a role in you having big hips and lovehandles. If they are there, you need to lose more weight. That pic of you back when you were "ripped" is "a little bit of ab defenition". If you have anything right now it would be ridges in your fat. That June 6th 04 pic looks like 13-14% bodyfat, and 34 waist pants would be about right for that percentage. That isn't genetics, that is just your bodyfat %. You do look like you went from 19-20% to around 17% during your cycle of ergomax judging by the pics you posted. You have put on about 20 pounds of muscle since then, which is good for less than a year. I'd say 10 of it came from the ergomax. The rest is fat and water weight.

spoonman

05-04-2005, 02:02 AM

Well thanks Nuke...the advice is appreciated. We are all here to learn and better ourselves. Constructive criticism never hurts. You seem like you know your stuff.

Now, I know I wasn't ripped for a bodybuilder in that pic, but I started at ~190 with very high BF and ended up at 165 with a pretty low BF in about a years time. I really think I was at closer to 11 or 12% in that pic, but who knows. Genetics really aren't a setback, they are just a motivator. I am not blaming the genetics for my fat but the wide hips make it harder for me to get that V shape. I dieted and cardioed my ass off and that pic is about as low of a BF as I could get. Now, I may have been able to get lower and made my lovehandles smaller but as far as the hips go, that is a bone and all you can do is eliminate the fat around it. My abs had pretty good definition but not really the 6 pack I was going for. When I said I have a little ab definition now, I mean that I can actually see some slight definition other than a completely square shape. I decided to bulk because I want to be pretty big and the more muscle you have, the easier cutting is.

It looks like you need to focus and nutrition basics/execercise. To be quite honest, it doesnt even look like you work out, you just look...pudgy

Since the time of that June 6th pic I took, I have perfected my diet and training...I would have never used this product and probably wouldn't have seen as good of results if they weren't in line. Its hard to put on 40 lbs. in 8 months time without some of it being fat.

NukeDukem

05-04-2005, 02:25 AM

Now, I know I wasn't ripped for a bodybuilder in that pic

This is true, and in the real world, compared to the average population which is out of shape, anything under 17% bodyfat, while wearing clothes, looks slim trim and in shape - ie. not fat.

Since the time of that June 6th pic I took, I have pefected my diet and training...I would have never used this product and probably wouldn't have seen as good of results if they weren't in line.

How have you perfected your diet and training if you are gaining fat with your muscle? Like I said, you went from 165 to 205 with probably 50/50 fat and muscle gained. I dont know what your diet is like so I can't call it crap, I'm just saying don't call it perfect unless you are getting perfect results. Guessing your own body's needs is much harder than just copying what everyone else on this board is doing. I'm pretty sure there is a point dietwise you can hit where you can gain muscle and not gain fat. You'd have to really work to find how many calories your body needed to stay at an even balance, combined with consistently timed protein intake. Personally, I do lots of stupid **** in my diet. I might have knowledge, but I know my execution is far from perfect, and am aware of the cause and effect that is taking place.

But I don't want to ****talk you into submission. Actually for some people, the perfect method is the one they can actually execute. If the "perfect" diet is so hard to follow that you just end up failing to do it at all, then for you, it wouldn't be very perfect. So if what you are doing is the best way for you to get results, so be it.

I'm just rambling on because there arent really many interesting threads going on this late at night ;)

spoonman

05-04-2005, 02:52 AM

I dont consider it ****talking, I am learning...and loving it man....people like you are what we need on these boards. Instead of flaming, you are helping me and backing up your advice with good reasoning.

I read in Men's Health that the average American man is around 180 lbs. with ~20% BF....that just tells you how many overweight people there are. They also said that if you can bench 1.5 times you weight then you are in great shape which is definately true but I despise people that think your bench press is the almighty judge of strength. I really don't understand why any man wouldn't bodybuild. All it really takes is a few hours out of the week to maintain a pretty good physique.

Anyhow, perfected definately was an overstatement. The whole reason people bodybuild is to reach perfection and it is an endless pursuit. The way I see it, though, is to gain maximum muscle, you will put on some fat as well. I just recently got my diet really down to where I eat mainly Low GI carbs and only healthy foods. Compared to what I knew a year ago, it has made a drastic improvement. I pretty much just eat whenever I feel the slightest bit hungry...my body has really adapted to the increase in food...I can eat a decent sized meal every 1-2 hours and if I go more than 2 hours without food, I am starving. I also lead a very busy life which includes full time college, a part time job, a girlfriend and also training for boxing/wrestling. Its hard enough to fit in weight training and I am always on the go so I am limited to what I eat.

As far as training goes, everyone is different but the number one thing IMO is to vary your workouts. Whether it means varying reps, sets, intensity, split or changing your program completely, you have to keep your body guessing.

Basically, I have fine tuned my diet and training since last year and added a lot of muscle so I should be able to cut a lot easier.

AcuDoc

05-04-2005, 07:22 AM

I would have to disagree with the "constantly keep the body guessing" concept. I read it alot with the pros talking about how they workout but I don't think it applies to the run of the mill BB.

In almost every sport that incorporates weight training, they get a program and stick to it. Usually the programs run from 4-12 weeks and has a set progression to get to a set goal. You might find better results if you set a goal, get a split and program you like, keep a journal to track your progress (as well as noting mental and physical changes during different lifts ect.), and then at the end of a set period reevaluate your progress. Make changes or keep on the program as needed.

spoonman

05-04-2005, 03:18 PM

I totally agree. Now when I say switch things up, I don't believe you need to constantly do it. In HST, for instance you are constantly changing it up but I really dont like that plan too much--I hate having to carry around a sheet of paper to remember lifts and weights. It is very tedious. IMO, The best way is to get a good plan down and stick to it for a couple months. Eventually gains will decrease because your body adapts to that type of training, at which point it is good to switch up your plan. I usually alter my regimen every 2-3 months. I think keeping the same plan for too long is what leads to many peoples' plateaus.

ke0

05-05-2005, 09:42 AM

spoonman

05-05-2005, 11:43 AM

I agree with all of the comments made about you needing to get your diet and training in order. I'd recommend going to Bobo ( owner of www.anabolicminds.com ) for personal training. He runs an internet-based personal training company ( www.flanutrition.com ) and will layout a complete diet, resistance training, and cardio program for you that will be as close to perfect as you can get. I am one of his clients and can vouch for his expertise. Here is my log ( http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22703 ) and there are many others in the same section.

Thanks man but I really don't need anyone else to tell me how to eat or train. I could make myself a solid nutrition plan but it is hard to follow because of my busy busy life. I eat as well as I possibly can. I do not see why you guys are judging it. have you followed me around to my gym and watched what I eat all day???

I am at 205 after 2 years of training and I have a pretty good frame to build off of. I learned a lot about training and diet in the first year and have got it pretty nailed down by now. This year's cut should be a lot easier and yeild better results...I will keep you guys updated.

joeyg

05-05-2005, 12:09 PM

Maybe it's just me but I see a big difference between spoonman's before and after pictures. Nice job, buddy -- and thanks for taking the time to create this log and post your comments. I'm sure your experience will help out a bunch of people weighing the decision of whether or not to use Ergomax or Max LMG.

Joey

spoonman

05-05-2005, 12:52 PM

Thanks joey....that was my goal.

ke0

05-05-2005, 03:13 PM

Thanks man but I really don't need anyone else to tell me how to eat or train. I could make myself a solid nutrition plan but it is hard to follow because of my busy busy life. I eat as well as I possibly can. I do not see why you guys are judging it. have you followed me around to my gym and watched what I eat all day???

I am at 205 after 2 years of training and I have a pretty good frame to build off of. I learned a lot about training and diet in the first year and have got it pretty nailed down by now. This year's cut should be a lot easier and yeild better results...I will keep you guys updated.

I am judging you from your pictures. It is obvious that something is seriously wrong with your diet and/or training if you look the way you do after 2 years of training.

P Dub

05-05-2005, 03:48 PM

Hey, great job man. You got much bigger and much leaner on this cycle.

Keep up the hard work.

tkatka70

05-05-2005, 08:18 PM

ergomax lmg still available or has it been banned. Sorry if this was already stated THanks for your time

40-Yard Dash_2

05-05-2005, 08:20 PM

Discontinued.

not_big_enuf

05-05-2005, 10:22 PM

spoon, i know you've really been listening to quite a few of these knowledgeable guys, but this guy below is really someone to talk to. he's truly a pro and the best you can get. if you really want to reach high level, or really learn the ins and outs, check out Bobo. it's a small sacrifice in money (really not very much at all) and you'll NEVER EVER regret it. period. put it this way, learning from him is easily worth a year's worth of supplements for sure.

just think about it man. seriously. dig deep and think about your goals and what you want to achieve. if you really want to learn and make the most out of your years where you're at, shoot Bobo an email or look around at his training page. he's a top 5 guy man... do it.

I agree with all of the comments made about you needing to get your diet and training in order. I'd recommend going to Bobo ( owner of www.anabolicminds.com ) for personal training. He runs an internet-based personal training company ( www.flanutrition.com ) and will layout a complete diet, resistance training, and cardio program for you that will be as close to perfect as you can get. I am one of his clients and can vouch for his expertise. Here is my log ( http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22703 ) and there are many others in the same section.

spoonman

05-05-2005, 10:56 PM

I am judging you from your pictures. It is obvious that something is seriously wrong with your diet and/or training if you look the way you do after 2 years of training.

You are 170 lbs. after 5 years of training and criticizing my progress after 2 years??

Getting the muscle is the hard part, cutting is simple.

I will consider the program as I have read over at AM and I know that Bobo is very credible. However, at this point, I am gaining good with my own diet/training program so I will definately wait until I hit a plateau.

not_big_enuf

05-06-2005, 05:22 AM

just consider it man. it'd be a one-time and you'd probably be absolely amazed at not only what you learned about nutrition, etc, but what you learned about your body, your training techniques, etc. imagine doubling your efficiency and everything else you do... that's the type of difference man.

waitlifter82

05-06-2005, 09:24 AM

You are 170 lbs. after 5 years of training and criticizing my progress after 2 years??
.

bodyweight isn't everything:

http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7493

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=189201

not_big_enuf

05-06-2005, 09:56 AM

Identical twins?

:D

spoonman

05-06-2005, 10:39 AM

LOL good point man. That guy has a great physique....theres no doubting that. However, I don't think he has anything that can't be accomplished by an average dedicated bodybuilder in 5 years. For two years, I think I have done damn well. I know people that have been lifting since middle school football that I have surpassed. I wasn't trying to compete with him, just questioning where hes coming from with this statement:

It is obvious that something is seriously wrong with your diet and/or training if you look the way you do after 2 years of training.

All I need is 6 weeks of cutting....its tough to put 40 lbs. on in 8 months without acquiring some bodyfat.

waitlifter82

05-06-2005, 11:27 AM

All I need is 6 weeks of cutting....its tough to put 40 lbs. on in 8 months without acquiring some bodyfat.

Very true. Keep us up to date of your results after your cut.... like to see the results

spoonman

05-06-2005, 11:37 AM

will do, man.

PCT Day 10 Update
-------------------
Well, everything is going great...my weight is holding steady and I feel completely recovered, actually, I have since about day 3. I felt a big difference even with one dose of Nolva. I am going to run it for about another week at 20mg just for safety, though. The HPTA shutdown and loss of gains seems extremely low with this compound....great stuff. I wanted to give myself at least 3 weeks before I started cutting but I have had no problem keeping the weight up so I am going to start to slowly add cardio and cut cals until I get into a full-on cutting phase. I will start the transition next week when I get done with exams. Stress will be gone, I will have more time and everything should be perfect. I will keep you guys updated. I can't wait to shred some pounds.

Matt

not_big_enuf

05-06-2005, 11:42 AM

I've been debating a cutting cycle of Ergomax. might be a waste of my last bottle though..

spoonman

05-06-2005, 11:45 AM

I actually think it would be great for cutting. We have all seen how lean the gains are, even with adding calories!! Add some cardio and decrease cals a bit and I'm sure you would lean up a lot, while gaining lean mass. But when you think about gaining 5-10 lbs. cutting vs. 10-20 lbs. on a bulk, you get yourself in a mix-up. If you have already done 1 cycle of it, it may be better to wait a few more months until fall and use it to bulk up then.

AcuDoc

05-06-2005, 11:50 AM

The HPTA shutdown ...seems extremely low with this compound..

Arrrrghhhh! You can't judge how shutdown your HPTA is by how you feel. The only reliable way is through bloodwork. Also, I hope your PCT is 4 weeks. By your post it seems that you are stopping at under 3 weeks. That would not be a great idea.

spoonman

05-06-2005, 12:07 PM

I was just waiting for your post after I said that, AcuDoc ;)

Well, I will run at least a 40/20/20...You don't think the typical 3 week nolva PCT is adequate for this compound?

EDIT: I actually ran 60mg for the first 3 days.

AcuDoc

05-06-2005, 12:27 PM

spoonman

05-06-2005, 12:31 PM

OK...will do. I suppose running it longer can't hurt, it can only help for safety issues...correct??

Also, it is convenient because running 60mg for the first 3 days, 40mg for the remainder of the first week and 20mg for 3 weeks after that comes out to be 57ml at 20mg/1.5 ml which works almost perfectly to one bottle per PCT.

NukeDukem

05-06-2005, 12:57 PM

I believe the general rule is that your PCT should last as long as your cycle did.

AcuDoc

05-06-2005, 05:15 PM

I believe the general rule is that your PCT should last as long as your cycle did.

4 weeks is standard. If you're on a 12 week test cyp cycle you don't do 12 weeks of clomid and nolva, you do 4.

NukeDukem

05-07-2005, 03:04 AM

I stand corrected! Yeah, I guess a 12 week PCT would be a little overkill. 12 weeks off would be healthy though.

AcuDoc

05-07-2005, 05:15 AM

I stand corrected! Yeah, I guess a 12 week PCT would be a little overkill. 12 weeks off would be healthy though.

You're right on the time off. Time off between cycles=PCT (4 weeks) + Amt. of time on cycle

NukeDukem

05-08-2005, 03:38 AM

Every god damn time I check my User CP and this thread pops up, the song "Spoonman" by Soundgarden plays in my head. It is starting to get annoying. :D

ke0

05-09-2005, 02:00 PM

I am 170 after cutting down from 196 lbs after 5 years of training and yes I am criticizing your progress. I could post my pictures if you'd like me to make my point much clearer.

You are 170 lbs. after 5 years of training and criticizing my progress after 2 years??

Getting the muscle is the hard part, cutting is simple.

I will consider the program as I have read over at AM and I know that Bobo is very credible. However, at this point, I am gaining good with my own diet/training program so I will definately wait until I hit a plateau.

secondsight

05-09-2005, 02:13 PM

You're right on the time off. Time off between cycles=PCT (4 weeks) + Amt. of time on cycle

Let's define this as "cycle + PCT + offcycle" where each is about equal in length.

AcuDoc

05-09-2005, 04:16 PM

Let's define this as "cycle + PCT + offcycle" where each is about equal in length.

I don't understand your post. Please clarify.

vegHead

05-09-2005, 07:12 PM

I am 170 after cutting down from 196 lbs after 5 years of training and yes I am criticizing your progress. I could post my pictures if you'd like me to make my point much clearer.

Keo dont bother dude you actually have a real good phsique. the thing about spoon is I hate to be a dick but hes been lifting for 2 years and he really doesnt have much definition. Doesnt really even look like you lift. Maybe it is the excess fat I reall dunmo but from those pictures of you when you were "ripped" you really didnt seem to have any definition you just looked skinny.
You say cutting is the easy part you're sort of right but also sort of wrong. Its not terribly hard to lose the weight but it is real hard to keep as much muslce as possible on. Too many people rush their cutting process and lose a good deal of muscle while cutting. judging from keo's pic's he has done a good job of staying lean while maintaing muscle. Anyway in the after shots you do look bigger and leaner and I think that if you continue to bulk throughout pct and then cut then you might look pretty good. Anyway good luck and thanks for the log

secondsight

05-27-2005, 03:23 PM

Spoonman, how is your PCT going? Are you keeping any of your gains? Can you give us the scoop?

Ephedra

05-30-2005, 04:39 AM

What happen to the before/after pics?

spoonman

05-30-2005, 07:25 AM

I had some after pics but never really got some good ones. PCT was a sinch on this cycle. I just got done running a Nolva of 40/20/20/20. I felt completely recovered after the first dose of Nolva but continued to take it as advised to do by AcuDoc and for safety reasons. Maintaining the weight was no problem at all. This may be do to the apparent (but not necessarily true) low shutdown with Ergo. After a couple weeks on PCT, I was holding steady at 205. I then started cutting and have been doing so over the last 3 weeks with a EC + Green Tea + ALCAR stack which has been working out tremendously. I have dropped down to around 198 and now I am starting to really lean out. Im gonna do another week of EC + G + ALCAR then start my Controlled Labs White Blood log. During that time, I will switch to a non-ephedrine weight burner. I have some samples of Scorch, some BSN THermonex, some Yohimbe and some pure Yerba Mate. Im probably gonna run some sort of stack and keep going with the Green Tea and ALCAR. I havent posted because frankly, at the BF I was at, I had lots of work to do to get ready for summer.

I plan on taking some good quality pictures very soon with my dads digital camera that has a lot better resolution than mine. I think you guys will be surprised by the transformation.

Conclusion
------------
I want to note that the main thing to watch out for on a cycle of Ergomax seems to be BP. I dont have exact readings but mine got high to the point where I could just be sitting still and literally feel the blood pumping through my neck veins and whatnot....it was pretty intense. I have heard that it is bad on lipid values like SD but I imagine its not too damaging in that category and its nothing a PCT with Nolva wont fix. I would really like to see some bloodwork for this product. One side effect that I didnt like was that I couldnt get full hard-ons. It was nothing to the point that I couldnt get business done but I wasnt operating at full peak. I was a little afraid that that part wouldn't come back with PCT but Nolva kicks ass. Maybe some Yohimbe or NO2 or something of the sort would be good to take on cycle. Also, for Hawthorn Berries and Celery Seed (which I didnt have), it would be good to preload these for a few weeks before starting a cycle to keep the BP down. Some Red Yeast Rice may also be in line if the rumors of cholesterol fluctuations are true.

I am going to post pictures within the next week or so and I will keep you guys updated. Look for a White Blood log coming soon.