The Xtend "IV" Experiment

[Beast]

After seeing the incredible results Scivation president Marc got from sipping on Xtend all day, I decided to follow in his lead and start massive dosing Xtend. Another thing that made me decide to do this is I've always seen the best results when I am supplementing with high amounts of BCAA (i.e. when I used Leptigen and another time when I was using 30 grams of ICE and day).

We know that Leucine is the key regulator of the mTOR signaling pathway, which regulates protein synthesis and enhances glycogen synthesis activity in muscle and Leptin expression in adipocytes.

Isoleucine stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake in skeletal muscle, which will lower plasma glucose levels.

I ran into an interesting study that showed Valine to reduce fatty acid synthase in adipocytes by 40% (in rats)[1], which would me less fat storage.

So I am intrigued. There is a lot of interesting research on BCAA and more is continuously being learned about them.

I'll update my stats and other on here on Sunday.

1. Taylor WM, Halperin ML. Effect of valine on the control of fatty acid synthesis in white adipose tissue of the rat. Can J Biochem. 1975 Oct;53(10):1054-60.

[chlaxman]

sounds interesting, just a little expensive.

[Sixpack]

How much are you going to be taking now bro?

[Scivation]

This is great Derek!

I am up to 220lbs now from 190 in January. I have no clue why. I am dieting down and targeting a show on May 25 because I had to postpone the last show due to travel, business and family obligations.

The only change in my regiment has been adding mega-dosed Xtend and NOxidant. My diet has even been pretty consistent with what I was doing before. Vascularity is more pronounced even at this higher bodyweight and my strength is up.

I am glad people saw me at the Olympia then at the Arnold so they can confirm that I'm not just making up stats!

I look forward to seeing your results, Derek!



Marc Lobliner

[drewkowsky]

thats unbelievable
looking forward to this

[uhockey]

Gotta admit, both Marc and Derek looked damned good at the Arnold, I'll definitely be following this to see how much Extend can add to someone already as impressive as Derek.

[Sixpack]

Marc how many servings are u taking for mega dosing? I have the small scooper the yellow on I have to take 5 of those to get 1 serving,I just emailed ya back also
Take care

[Beast]

I had started doing this at the Expo and continued doing it when I got home because I became sick (so about 6-7 days so far) and I already notice an increase in vascularity.

Xtend, per serving (2 scoops) is:
L-Leucine 3.5 g
L-Isoleucine 1.75 g
L-Valine 1.75 g
L-Glutamine 2.5 g
Vitamin B6 10 mg
Citrulline Malate 1 g
So 7 grams total BCAA per serving

My dosing will probably be:
Workout days
7:45 (Pre-workout) 1 serving
8-9:15 (During Workout) 1 serving
9:30 (Post Workout) 1 serving
Then 3 more servings sipped throughout the day
Total BCAA = 42 grams
I may also drink a serving in the middle of the night when I wake up to use the bathroom, so a total of about 50 grams BCAA a day.

I'll post my diet, training split, and stats on Sunday.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

I've been telling people to do this for 2 years now, glad someone finally caught on.

[Scivation]

It really is anabolic. Dave knows his stuff.

He is also one attractive individual!

[Sixpack]

I have only talked to Dave , I have not seen him. I will be in Vegas for sure so hopefully will get a chance to meet all

It really is anabolic. Dave knows his stuff.

He is also one attractive individual!

[Beast]

I've been telling people to do this for 2 years now, glad someone finally caught on.

You were the reason why I started using Free form amino acids in the first place (ICE and Vendetta)... about 2 years ago (he wasn't lying folks!).

I'll keep you guys up to date

[doggzj]

definately interested. But question: Is only 3 extra throughout the day enough? If I remember correctly Marc was putting it in all of his water he consumed.

[Sixpack]

If I could afford to do this it would be great lol

[Matt96teg]

If I could afford to do this it would be great lol
Same here...Even though I get things at cost it's still to spendy. I guess I will settle for BCAA's during workout.

[R_N_S]

if you're only after the bcaa's you can, someone invented bulk powders for a reason ;)


190-220 in 2 months is freakin impressive though, i wonder if we all underestimate the power of bcaa's, gonna start mega dosing them myself now!


great work on the research beast/customizer/scivation!

[Jedi Master]

cheap, qaulity bulk BCAA. just add your own flavoring for ****s and giggles.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sf/bcaa.html

[Jedi Master]

This is great Derek!

I am up to 220lbs now from 190 in January.

Marc Lobliner


Are you saying you put on 30lbs of muscle in 2 months using BCAA's?? LOL

[vegHead]

cheap, qaulity bulk BCAA. just add your own flavoring for ****s and giggles.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sf/bcaa.html


hmm good call jedi. This sounds intersting I might actually try this. IF I took 2 scoops at a time for something like 6-7 times a day that would be 60-70 grams of bcaas a day. Damn i might do this, jsut gotta get some money haha

[An Inconvenient Bro]

yeah except that price really isn't all that cheap

[zachattack43]

I would just buy some bulk Leucine next time I order Xtend. Sounds very interesting Derek.

[Bird4Three]

If I remember correctly Marc was putting it in all of his water he consumed.

I have done this with Nitrojet for the past year. I add a few servings each time I drink water and end up with an extra 30 grams of amino acids each day. Not quite as extreme as Beast's experiment, but it has been effective for me.

Hard to quantify exactly how many pounds of muscle I can attribute to this, but I have had a great year for me in terms of size and strength.

[Beast]

I'm just going to fill up a gallon jug when I get home from the gym and put the 3 servings (6 scoops) in it. I'm going to gather some studies on BCAA then post them here later today.

[j_neatherlin]

i am pretty sure board member sixthsense is a big fan of sipping on a similar glutamine + BCAA cocktail throughout the day.

[Jedi Master]

how do you guys manage to drink BCAA's?? The obviously dont mix mix well, and they get caught in my throat, thats one of the reasons I like Beverlys BCAA tablets.

is there anyway to make them more drinkable??

[covert ash]

Subscribing.

[Iron___Stoner]

This is great Derek!

I am up to 220lbs now from 190 in January. I have no clue why. I am dieting down and targeting a show on May 25 because I had to postpone the last show due to travel, business and family obligations.

The only change in my regiment has been adding mega-dosed Xtend and NOxidant. My diet has even been pretty consistent with what I was doing before. Vascularity is more pronounced even at this higher bodyweight and my strength is up.

I am glad people saw me at the Olympia then at the Arnold so they can confirm that I'm not just making up stats!

I look forward to seeing your results, Derek!



Marc Lobliner
Up 30 pounds since in 3 months? thats amazing. thats like a super mesomorph, new to lifting, on steroids, 400g protein per day... and more. wow. i bet u got some massive stretch marks...

[JohnnyThrice]

As much as I have come to respect and admire Derek for the contributions he has made to this site, I have to question his motives for promoting "massive doses" of BCAA's.

If you're starving, hooked up to an IV, or somehow incredibly deficient in your daily protein consumption, then yes, I can understand the massive BCAA supplementation. But for bodybuilders??

Come on man, don't influence all those young guys to go spend what little cash they have on these supplements.


http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Branched_Chain_Aminos.htm


Some research has shown that BCAA supplementation (typically 10-20 grams per day) does not result in meaningful changes in body composition,3 nor does it improve exercise performance4 5 6 7 8 or enhance the effects of physical training.9 10 However, BCAA supplementation may be useful in special situations, such as preventing muscle loss at high altitudes11 and prolonging endurance performance in the heat.12 Studies by one group of researchers suggest that BCAA supplementation may also improve exercise-induced declines in some aspects of mental functioning.13 14 15

[Slated]

I've just put 2 bottles of Xtend in my cart, finalizing yet another $300+ BB.com order. I'm going to give this mega dosing a try as well. I only have another 6 months of single life left, so my days of putting money into supps instead of college accounts is numbered.

[Beast]

The purpose is to experiment with supraphysiological levels of BCAA, specifically leucine.

People have always gotten good results from HIGH protein diets, yet studies show that anything over 1 g/lb really won't do much.

Beverly international's athletes always get incredible results from taken BCAA/Liver Tabs between or will meals. These are extra BCAA added to their high protein diets.

"Come on man, don't influence all those young guys to go spend what little cash they have on these supplements."

If this works well, I would much rather have the young guys buy BCAA instead of steroids or Nitrotech...

As for my motives, to freakin see if it works. I don't get any money from doing this. I don't get any money for Xtend sales. I'm doing it in the name of science and experiment.

As much as I have come to respect and admire Derek for the contributions he has made to this site, I have to question his motives for promoting "massive doses" of BCAA's.

If you're starving, hooked up to an IV, or somehow incredibly deficient in your daily protein consumption, then yes, I can understand the massive BCAA supplementation. But for bodybuilders??

Come on man, don't influence all those young guys to go spend what little cash they have on these supplements.


http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Branched_Chain_Aminos.htm

[Beast]

how do you guys manage to drink BCAA's?? The obviously dont mix mix well, and they get caught in my throat, thats one of the reasons I like Beverlys BCAA tablets.

is there anyway to make them more drinkable??

If you let them sit in the water for like 30 minutes, they dissolve pretty well (at least ICE and Xtend do). Optimum's BCAA do not dissolve well at all though.

[Scivation]

Up 30 pounds since in 3 months? thats amazing. thats like a super mesomorph, new to lifting, on steroids, 400g protein per day... and more. wow. i bet u got some massive stretch marks...

No new strectch marks (that I can see). I was quite a fat-bastard when I was younger, so I guess my skin has already been taken to its limits! I am amazed myself and have no clue what happened.

It could also be that my body is rebounding from the enormous amount of stress placed on it during the holidays due to my family tragedy, but I don't know.

I never said "Xtend put 30lbs of lean mass on me!", I simply stated that the only change to my diet, training and supplementation during these last 3 months has been the addition of mega-dosed Xtend and NOxidant. I understand it is hard to believe these stats, but even Derek and Layne were taken aback after training with me at the Olympia and then at the Arnold. My vascularity is much more pronounced and I have maintained decent leanness.

[Beast]

I never said "Xtend put 30lbs of lean mass on me!", I simply stated that the only change to my diet, training and supplementation during these last 3 months has been the addition of mega-dosed Xtend and NOxidant. I understand it is hard to believe these stats, but even Derek and Layne were taken aback after training with me at the Olympia and then at the Arnold. My vascularity is much more pronounced and I have maintained decent leanness.

Exactly, hence why I am running this experiment, to see what the effects of mega-dosing Xtend have on me. I've already noticed an increase in vascularity. I'll probably run this for 6 weeks, with weekly stats updates.

[dito]

I too had great results with mega dosing ICE a few years ago. I don't think Derek is a good tester though. He'll gain an inch on his biceps in 2 weeks just from sitting on the couch :D

[Scivation]

I too had great results with mega dosing ICE a few years ago. I don't think Derek is a good tester though. He'll gain an inch on his biceps in 2 weeks just from sitting on the couch :D

Well, this brings up a good point.

Perhaps Dito should do this experiment as well. Can you keep a good, detailed log (no dirty jokes, Dito).

[Beast]

I too had great results with mega dosing ICE a few years ago. I don't think Derek is a good tester though. He'll gain an inch on his biceps in 2 weeks just from sitting on the couch :D

Calves maybe, but biceps no...

Just playin :D

My gains have actually been on the slow side lately. My arms have been stuck at 17.25 for a while and I am aiming to increase that right now. My chest is my other target point.

My training will be:
Monday: Chest/Back/Bis/Tris
Wednesday: Legs/Shoulders(medial delt emphasis)/Traps
Friday: Chest/Back/Bis/Tris
Saturday: Legs/Shoulders(posterior delt emphasis)/Traps

[dito]

Well, this brings up a good point.

Perhaps Dito should do this experiment as well. Can you keep a good, detailed log (no dirty jokes, Dito).

I can't :( Doing Xfactor for Willie. After I am done with that I probably can. I am loaded up on ICE and Xtend so I could mix the two.

[Beast]

I'd also like to point out how much I love it when people say things come easily for me (jokingly or not)... nevermind, if I post what is on my mind it will just make me angry and release cortisol (sips some Xtend)...

[Scivation]

I can't :( Doing Xfactor for Willie. After I am done with that I probably can. I am loaded up on ICE and Xtend so I could mix the two.

How much longer on that test, Dito?

I'd provide the Xtend in the name of science.

[Scivation]

I'd also like to point out how much I love it when people say things come easily for me... nevermind, if I post what is on my mind it will just make me angry and release cortisol (sips some Xtend)...

I have spent a lot of time with Derek and the guy eats clean and trains his butt off. His gains come because he WORKS hard, not because he is a genetic freak. Derek and Layne are the only two people I have ever met that are as obsessed as me.

His calves are a different story. He gets a pump getting out of bed in the morning!

[dito]

I'd also like to point out how much I love it when people say things come easily for me (jokingly or not)... nevermind, if I post what is on my mind it will just make me angry and release cortisol (sips some Xtend)...

Don't be such a baby. Obviously you work hard(a lot harder than me:p). No need to be so sensitive. *hug*

[dito]

How much longer on that test, Dito?

I'd provide the Xtend in the name of science.


I think another 5 weeks. Can you make watermelon flavored xtend?

[Beast]

Don't be such a baby. Obviously you work hard(a lot harder than me:p). No need to be so sensitive. *hug*

It's a different story after being told for 6 years that everything you've accomplished is due to genetics... gets quite annoying.

Thanks for the hug, I feel better now.

[ford4life]

this is amazing. the idea of having a consistant flow of bcaas into the bloodstream potentially maximizing uptake and therefore gains. Perfect science- go scivation.

[uhockey]

This really should be a good experiment. While currently not affordable to the mainstream, the pure science of a "constant" flow of BCAAs and their effects on anabolism/anti-catabolism is a thrilling study. Ideally it would be great to see Marc run such an experiment in a controlled environment, but from reading Derek's posts I can imagine he will do all that he can to avoid compromising the experimental results. While I don't doubt Derek's dedication to his body one bit, it would be additionally interesting to see the effects on an indiviual who does not already posess such a stellar physique.
Even outside of the world of bodybuilding (and I don't know if such experiments have been done,) imagine the potential for treatment of catabolic diseases such as cancer or AIDS with BCAA supplementation in addition to current therapies. I'll definitely keep my eye on this thread.

[UnleashedBeast]

Good luck Beast, I hope your experiment turns out to be a success.

Marc, what else were you on during those 3 months?! :eek: :D

[dito]

It's a different story after being told for 6 years that everything you've accomplished is due to genetics... gets quite annoying.

Thanks for the hug, I feel better now.


Will you sit on my lap now?

[bachovas]

Seems interesting. Slightly worried about how this could keep high insulin levels during the day, which may or may not affect fat loss. Although we all know at the end of the day it comes down to calories in vs. calories out anyway.

I'm currently doing UD2.0, a modified version very similar to what Derek just last month, about to finish the 3rd week, looking to do 3-4 more.

Marc, if you're interested, and are willing to provide a bottle or two of Xtend. I could give this experiment a shot.
I would even take care of shipping charges, so you could send it directly to me, with no delays.

[zachattack43]

I can't :( Doing Xfactor for Willie. After I am done with that I probably can. I am loaded up on ICE and Xtend so I could mix the two.
that would be great to see the experiment on a more normal person, sorry Derek.

[str8flexed]

After seeing the incredible results Scivation president Marc got from sipping on Xtend all day, I decided to follow in his lead and start massive dosing Xtend. Another thing that made me decide to do this is I've always seen the best results when I am supplementing with high amounts of BCAA (i.e. when I used Leptigen and another time when I was using 30 grams of ICE and day).

We know that Leucine is the key regulator of the mTOR signaling pathway, which regulates protein synthesis and enhances glycogen synthesis activity in muscle and Leptin expression in adipocytes.

Isoleucine stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake in skeletal muscle, which will lower plasma glucose levels.

I ran into an interesting study that showed Valine to reduce fatty acid synthase in adipocytes by 40% (in rats)[1], which would me less fat storage.

So I am intrigued. There is a lot of interesting research on BCAA and more is continuously being learned about them.

I'll update my stats and other on here on Sunday.

1. Taylor WM, Halperin ML. Effect of valine on the control of fatty acid synthesis in white adipose tissue of the rat. Can J Biochem. 1975 Oct;53(10):1054-60.


there is no evidence to suggest that protein intakes that ridiculously high should have any additional benefit... HOWEVER, with all the anecdotal reports out there i'm wondering if it doesn't have a front loading effect. In the lab they find you need a basal level of leucine (as much as you get from a regular meal) to stimulate protein synthesis and no further synthesis takes place unless you get in the unphysiological range. I know insulin acts in a similar way and leucine and insulin work through similar ways in the same pathways. I wonder if it's not all the protein that's doing it; but rather you are overloading the degradative pathways and allowing more leucine to flood the pools.

I have a feeling you could go with 250g of protein and like 50g-75g of additional BCAAs or 30-40g of additional leucine per day and get the same effect.

I may have to try this.

[str8flexed]

I have spent a lot of time with Derek and the guy eats clean and trains his butt off. His gains come because he WORKS hard, not because he is a genetic freak. Derek and Layne are the only two people I have ever met that are as obsessed as me.

His calves are a different story. He gets a pump getting out of bed in the morning!

implants. just like those things in your pecs :D

[Beast]

Seems interesting. Slightly worried about how this could keep high insulin levels during the day, which may or may not affect fat loss. Although we all know at the end of the day it comes down to calories in vs. calories out anyway.

I'm currently doing UD2.0, a modified version very similar to what Derek just last month, about to finish the 3rd week, looking to do 3-4 more.

Marc, if you're interested, and are willing to provide a bottle or two of Xtend. I could give this experiment a shot.
I would even take care of shipping charges, so you could send it directly to me, with no delays.

When I got my leanest (3.9% bf) I was taking Leptigen (which has 5 grams BCAA per serving) in between my meals, so I doubt sipping on BCAA would negatively affect fat loss when you look at the positive aspects of it.

IF you want to try this experiment on another person Marc, I think Bachovas would be a good canidate. Maybe do two weeks on the UD2 and two weeks on maintanence (not counting cals from the BCAA)?

[391rippy]

just curious, but how would high doses of BCAA make a big difference? if someone is on a high protein diet (like all of us here are)eating protein at regular intervals throughout the day, would we not be getting enough BCAAs? after all, protein is just a combination of all the aminos. so would it make sense to instead just sip on whey all day so that we're getting all of the other amino's as well? thanks

**this is not a bash. i'm just curious and would like to know the science behind this all**

[Beast]

just curious, but how would high doses of BCAA make a big difference? if someone is on a high protein diet (like all of us here are)eating protein at regular intervals throughout the day, would we not be getting enough BCAAs? after all, protein is just a combination of all the aminos. so would it make sense to instead just sip on whey all day so that we're getting all of the other amino's as well? thanks

**this is not a bash. i'm just curious and would like to know the science behind this all**

The BCAA (leucine, isoleucine, and valine) have special properties, of specific interest here is leucine's ability to activate mTOR (which regulates protein synthesis). The BCAA are in free form, which means they do not need to be broken down to be digested. Whey would have to be broken down, but that's not the most important thing here.

Ingesting 5 grams of BCAA will have a different physiological effect than ingesting 5 grams of a whole protein. We a specifically after the BCAA, most importantly leucine, to boost protein synthesis.

[391rippy]

so basically our regular intake (around 300 grams for me) of protein wouldn't supply that high of BCAA's?

[doggzj]

so basically our regular intake (around 300 grams for me) of protein wouldn't supply that high of BCAA's?

From a normal person's perspective you'd be getting very large amounts of BCAAs. What we are conserned with is making the body as optimized as possible IE: At what point do we see diminishing returns?

[str8flexed]

From a normal person's perspective you'd be getting very large amounts of BCAAs. What we are conserned with is making the body as optimized as possible IE: At what point do we see diminishing returns?


you see diminished returns with anything... even steroids

[str8flexed]

just curious, but how would high doses of BCAA make a big difference? if someone is on a high protein diet (like all of us here are)eating protein at regular intervals throughout the day, would we not be getting enough BCAAs? after all, protein is just a combination of all the aminos. so would it make sense to instead just sip on whey all day so that we're getting all of the other amino's as well? thanks

**this is not a bash. i'm just curious and would like to know the science behind this all**

reread my post... you don't need that much protein.. you have plenty for actually synthesizing muscle protein... what you are looking for is a way to increase protein synthesis. Leucine has a 10 fold greater impact on protein synthesis than any other amino acid.

-Layne

[Sixpack]

I just ran out of Xtend I have a some tub of ICE that I am going to try this with and see what happens what the hell might as well lol,I load up 5-6 servings per day until the ICE runs out then will either get more or more xtend

[G.W. Hayduke]

Well, this brings up a good point.

Perhaps Dito should do this experiment as well. Can you keep a good, detailed log (no dirty jokes, Dito).
Dito needs his mouth washed out with soap. I'd like to reccomend Uncle Harry's liquid soap.


If Dito doesn't want to do this test, I certainly would take his place.

[live4this13]

I'am cutting, so I could see about the negitive/positive fat loss affects. I'd keep a detailed log for you. Please let me know if your interested. I have a journal in my sig.

[Mike83]

what if you take alot of amino pills during the day?

Will your body absorb it?

I have these optiunum nutritions that are huge.

So mega doses of these thru out the day is good?

[str8flexed]

what if you take alot of amino pills during the day?

Will your body absorb it?

I have these optiunum nutritions that are huge.

So mega doses of these thru out the day is good?

you are not reading

it is the BCAAs that are key here...not the other aminos. The BCAA's are far stronger metabolic signals than any other amino acids

[Mike83]

you are not reading

it is the BCAAs that are key here...not the other aminos. The BCAA's are far stronger metabolic signals than any other amino acids


sorry, i just skimmed thru this and was intersted.


If you take a amino tabs, they contain branch chains, if you take enough it will add up : )

thanks for informing me, everyday i get more and more intersted in this stuff.

[str8flexed]

sorry, i just skimmed thru this and was intersted.


If you take a amino tabs, they contain branch chains, if you take enough it will add up : )

thanks for informing me, everyday i get more and more intersted in this stuff.


but you have to eat much more to get the same effect.

[Mike83]

ya, i was just reading the profile of those optinums i was talking about, it would be much easier just getting some raw powder.

[ford4life]

while this thread seems focused on the bcaas in xtend, you also have to remember that the extra b6 and citulline malate might have an effect on this.
theres 1g of cm and 10mg of b6 per 2 scoops. if your taking such a massive amount (i believe 15-20 scoops/day?) you could make the conjecture that since the recommended citulline malate dosage is about 3g/daily that the 15-20 grams consumed might have something to do with marc's amazing gains in addition to the bcaas themselves.

[dito]

Dito needs his mouth washed out with soap. I'd like to reccomend Uncle Harry's liquid soap.


If Dito doesn't want to do this test, I certainly would take his place.



[freeload canceled]
You are doing xfactor as well
[/freeload canceled]

[dito]

.Marc, if you're interested, and are willing to provide a bottle or two of Xtend. I could give this experiment a shot.
I would even take care of shipping charges, so you could send it directly to me, with no delays.


I'd give you my spot if you were nicer to me. Like not just talking to me when you need something. :(

[uhockey]

Goodness, I didn't realize this was turning into a signup sheet......heck, if that's the case I'll throw my hat in the ring too.

I was actually reading a few articles on MD Consult last night on the topic (along with an interesting article in an old issue of "The Bull" featuring J-Rod and Marc's training session) and although no specific profound benefit to BCAA administration in the critically ill patient has been found, there does seem to be significant reduction of the level of false transmitters that are caused by aromatic amino acids and increased protein and energy synthesis in both skeletal and cardiac muscle even under ischemic conditions (and interestingly also under insulin dependant type 1 diabetic conditions.)

Additionally, I found the following article very interesting
Shimomura Y - J Nutr - 01-JUN-2004; 134(6 Suppl): 1583S-1587S

"Branched-chain amino acids (BCAAs) are essential amino acids that can be oxidized in skeletal muscle. It is known that BCAA oxidation is promoted by exercise. The mechanism responsible for this phenomenon is attributed to activation of the branched-chain alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH) complex, which catalyzes the second-step reaction of the BCAA catabolic pathway and is the rate-limiting enzyme in the pathway. This enzyme complex is regulated by a phosphorylation-dephosphorylation cycle. The BCKDH kinase is responsible for inactivation of the complex by phosphorylation, and the activity of the kinase is inversely correlated with the activity state of the BCKDH complex, which suggests that the kinase is the primary regulator of the complex. We found recently that administration of ligands for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-alpha (PPARalpha) in rats caused activation of the hepatic BCKDH complex in association with a decrease in the kinase activity, which suggests that promotion of fatty acid oxidation upregulates the BCAA catabolism. Long-chain fatty acids are ligands for PPARalpha, and the fatty acid oxidation is promoted by several physiological conditions including exercise. These findings suggest that fatty acids may be one of the regulators of BCAA catabolism and that the BCAA requirement is increased by exercise. Furthermore, BCAA supplementation before and after exercise has beneficial effects for decreasing exercise-induced muscle damage and promoting muscle-protein synthesis; this suggests the possibility that BCAAs are a useful supplement in relation to exercise and sports."

Thus, since Derek (and many many others including myself) is so fond of Sesamin it would seem that the administration of excess BCAA's would be even more beneficial for muscle anabolism due to the high level of PPARalpha agonism induced by sesamin causing excessive BCAA (along with fatty acid) catabolism.

While the point about mega doses of citrulline malate does appear to have some validity, that is the makeup of Xtend and unless someone else is willing to try such an experiment with a BCAA supplement w/o CM (or an experiment w/o excess BCAA but high dose CM) I'm not sure how one could differentiate. Realize, however, that the research involving ischemic and diabetic conditions would not apply to CM as it functions only in the aerobic TCA cyle.

[Sixpack]

Ya no kidding can we all sighn up ,Good read hockey very good info

[Beast]

I didn't know this was a sign up thread... :)

If others want to test this, I would suggest tracking your weights, stats, bf% for 4 weeks, then without changing anything except the addition of the BCAA do the same for the next 4 weeks.

Before everyone gets all crazy, if you add 50 grams of protein, and especially BCAA, to your diet you are going to see results (especially if you are hypocaloric). You are adding 200 cals a day.

What I am trying to test is the results above and beyond an adequate diet. I have my diet and training down and will do able to discern whether this BCAA experiment is creating results that would not be seen otherwise.

I have taken high doses of CM in the past (12-16 grams per day) and did not notice a major change in growth, but that is not to say the BCAA + CM will not have a synergistic effect.

[ford4life]

hey its worth a shot to sign up

[uhockey]

I think people just started thinking "signup" when Marc made the offer to Dito regarding the xtend. Out of curiosity Derek, will the xtend be in addition to your normal intake of food (ie. an additional 200 calories on top of what you were consuming pre-expeiment) or will it be in exchange for other macros/whole protein sources? Anyhow, nice info on the CM and I hope this experiment goes very well for you, I'll certainly be watching.

[Scivation]

I am flattered that everyone wants to partake in science, but I cannot hand out free bottles to everyone!

[Beast]

I think people just started thinking "signup" when Marc made the offer to Dito regarding the xtend. Out of curiosity Derek, will the xtend be in addition to your normal intake of food (ie. an additional 200 calories on top of what you were consuming pre-expeiment) or will it be in exchange for other macros/whole protein sources? Anyhow, nice info on the CM and I hope this experiment goes very well for you, I'll certainly be watching.

I'm going to write-up my diet later today. I have been eating 350 grams of protein a day and will drop that to 300 grams for this experiment.

[bachovas]

while this thread seems focused on the bcaas in xtend, you also have to remember that the extra b6 and citulline malate might have an effect on this.
theres 1g of cm and 10mg of b6 per 2 scoops. if your taking such a massive amount (i believe 15-20 scoops/day?) you could make the conjecture that since the recommended citulline malate dosage is about 3g/daily that the 15-20 grams consumed might have something to do with marc's amazing gains in addition to the bcaas themselves.

Comparing it to ICE, which is ~25% glutamine and doesn't contain Citrulline Malate, if this were to work, I'm almost certain there would be no difference.

[str8flexed]

I am flattered that everyone wants to partake in science, but I cannot hand out free bottles to everyone!


everyone just wants free ****

[Slated]

real men buy, not beg

I bought two of them with my big order on friday night after reading this. Pricey, but why not. Sci puts out good stuff

[Sixpack]

Agree spendy just bought a tup along with 2 tubs of grape and watermelon WPI. Great quality and customer service by Mark is hard to come buy now days


real men buy, not beg

I bought two of them with my big order on friday night after reading this. Pricey, but why not. Sci puts out good stuff

[pu12en12g]

Wow I wish I could afford that :cool:

Instead, I megadose protein. And I agree. The Nitric Oxide / Citrulline Malate will be a huge part of the end result.

[G.W. Hayduke]

It's a different story after being told for 6 years that everything you've accomplished is due to genetics... gets quite annoying.

Don't let that **** bother you. I remember reading your articles in the tenth grade (~4years ago) and hating you cause you were a know-it-all. Well, turns out you kind of are. Ha, you really showed me.

[G.W. Hayduke]

[freeload canceled]
You are doing xfactor as well
[/freeload canceled]
LMAO. You crack me out Dito. Right the **** out! :D

[Striver]

So it doesn't necessarily have to be Xtend but any combination of BCAAs, CM + NO products?

In this case megadosing NO-explode(contains CM) and BCAAs (possibly B6 too) would do the same thing?

[avian]

Yeah, sure im going to try... when you guys are done with this review.

:)

[icey]

I will give this a shot on my next cycle. That's in about 4 weeks.

Here would be the plan, it's stilly pricey but would somehat keep some of the cost down:

1) Use XTend preworkout
2) Use ICE postworkout

3) Buy a bulk BCAA powder and use that for "sipping" the rest of the day.

Total BCAA intake will be 50 grams.

I would take it at the gym but they are Nazis about having water only there.

[dito]

Also be sure to take them upon waking in the morn. It's an excelent way to get rid of "night catabolism".

[icey]

Will do.

Thanks for the tip.

[Beast]

Here are my starting measurements

[derekmac]

everyone just wants free ****

Imagine that

[Sixpack]

Damn D 208 I will catch you, what are your diet looking like

[youngvet1]

im surprised that no one mentioned or was interested when i did this same experiment, my title for the log was even similar.
I called it:
BCAA xtend review the BCAA IV cutting log
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=390348

sighs,
youngvet will be famous one day :(

[ProWrestler]

I want to see how this experiment turns out. If it works for the majority Ill try it later on down the road. :D

[waitlifter82]

everyone just wants free ****


Damn straight!!:)

Look forward to the results on this lil' experiment

[Beast]

im surprised that no one mentioned or was interested when i did this same experiment, my title for the log was even similar.
I called it:
BCAA xtend review the BCAA IV cutting log
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=390348

sighs,
youngvet will be famous one day :(

I'll give you a rep point :D

[str8flexed]

here are my stats for the record
tonight (03/13/05)
weight: 216 lbs
bodyfat: 10.8% (average of 5 tests)
lean body mass: 192.7 lbs

for those who know how I take bodyfat, I am extremely hard on myself. I pinch and pull as much as I possibly can from each site.

-Layne

[dito]

Sounds kinky. When are you going to take my bodyfat Layne?? :o

[Beast]

for those who know how I take bodyfat, I am extremely hard on myself. I pinch and pull as much as I possibly can from each site.

-Layne

I try to, but I seem to have tight skin and my quad skinfold is hard to take. Are you going to participate in this experiment Layne?

[Beast]

Sounds kinky. When are you going to take my bodyfat Layne?? :o

Let's take the personal inquiries to PM Dito. Stop making my thread dirty!!!

Your friend, Derek

[dito]

So you will check my bodyfat then?

[Beast]

So you will check my bodyfat then?

I don't think my calipers are big enough for your skinfolds. :D

[str8flexed]

I try to, but I seem to have tight skin and my quad skinfold is hard to take. Are you going to participate in this experiment Layne?

yea giving it a try

and you do have really tight skin, i don't know how you get an accurate bodyfat reading

[Matt96teg]

Hmm as soon as I get a raise I will try that BCAA IV...But it will be SNS BCAA's.

[RIPped1484]

This is an awesome thread. I have two questions though. If you were bulking and trying this experiement with high BCAA's, would it be beneficial to raise protein intake because of the greater protein synthesis? If you don't have that much money would high doses of l-leucine throughout the day be almost as beneficial as a BCAA powder?

[str8flexed]

This is an awesome thread. I have two questions though. If you were bulking and trying this experiement with high BCAA's, would it be beneficial to raise protein intake because of the greater protein synthesis? If you don't have that much money would high doses of l-leucine throughout the day be almost as beneficial as a BCAA powder?


it is the BCAAs that are stimulating protein synthesis so if you are consuming high amounts of them, you can keep protein a bit lower as you don't really need that much substrate for muscle protein synthesis as your body has quite a bit of ample free amino acids post exercise.

-layne

[Mishima]

Im currently persueing a Case study into the effect of BCAA's supplementation on limb imbolisied Olympic lifters in the persuit of the prevention of atropy.

The reported beneficial effects of BCAA's on nutrition were reported to improve muscle performance, reduce protein loss during bed-rest, favor weight loss in obesity, reduce catabolism in trauma patients.

working with these findings i hope to get some good results.

new studies each year provide further evidence supporting their beneficial effect in a variety of diseases. There is a need for long-term, randomized clinical studies.

ill be interested into the outcome of your little experiment Beast

[Jedi Master]

how long can BCAA's stay stable in water for?

[str8flexed]

how long can BCAA's stay stable in water for?


quite a while if I remember correctly.

[dam225]

subscribe

[bachovas]

I'm going to go with this too.

In my case I will use ICE from Xtreme Formulations, as I already take BodyOctane everyday, and feel I don't need the extra citrulline malate from Xtend.
I will be starting in ~2 weeks, later this month (28-31st). Should have received it by then.

This should be after I finish this UD2.0 cycle, which I'm cutting short a week or two, because I cannot keep living like a freaking zombie. Damn setpoint.

Anyway, I should have 10-14 days of eating under maintenance, at the start of this experiment.

Thinking 50-60grs daily, 20-30 pre, during and post, and 30-40 during the rest of the day (total BCAA intake, 33-40grs).
Essentially the same protocol they'll be doing with Xtend.


Or perhaps Dave would prefer it if I try it with a different dosing/timing?

[Beast]

Note:
Since I unofficially started mega dosing Xtend a week ago, I have been sleeping VERY well. When I wake up I feel great, very refreshed and ready to go. My guess is this is due to overall increased recovery.

[Scivation]

Derek,

Are you still noticing increased vascularity? This is my favorite part of it, although Katie isn't a fan of the veiny look.

[str8flexed]

Derek,

Are you still noticing increased vascularity? This is my favorite part of it, although Katie isn't a fan of the veiny look.

ha... no wonder you never get laid :D

[Stormrider]

Definatly some interesting stuff going on here! I may give this a shot as well down the road. I guess Lyle was right in say that BCAA's aint worth much unless your taking 40+ grams of them. :P

[Sixpack]

Great bro I also upped my dosage up to 5 servings per day, legs are feeling much better also more recovered.


Note:
Since I unofficially started mega dosing Xtend a week ago, I have been sleeping VERY well. When I wake up I feel great, very refreshed and ready to go. My guess is this is due to overall increased recovery.

[G.W. Hayduke]

How would you guys say BCAA supplementation compares to EAA supplementation?

[str8flexed]

How would you guys say BCAA supplementation compares to EAA supplementation?


more leucine/g supplement

[hounds]

subscribe

[gdawg0987]

At the amounts you are taking, how much would it cost to supply you for about a month would you say?

[asuguy]

omg, this is too much. how low people will go to make some $$$.

[str8flexed]

omg, this is too much. how low people will go to make some $$$.

regardless of what you think, I am a scientist first, and an athlete of Scivation second (No Marc I will not sell you my soul :p )

I have my reservations about whether or not this will work but I have been racking my brain trying to come up with explainations as to how such high protein diets could work so well and this theory is the only one that I can come up with that makes sense to me.

I could explain it all to you in detail if you like.

[live4this13]

regardless of what you think, I am a scientist first, and an athlete of Scivation second (No Marc I will not sell you my soul :p )

I have my reservations about whether or not this will work but I have been racking my brain trying to come up with explainations as to how such high protein diets could work so well and this theory is the only one that I can come up with that makes sense to me.

I could explain it all to you in detail if you like.


Not that I question this experient or annyones integrity but please explain, it will be interesting.

[uhockey]

regardless of what you think, I am a scientist first, and an athlete of Scivation second (No Marc I will not sell you my soul :p )

I have my reservations about whether or not this will work but I have been racking my brain trying to come up with explainations as to how such high protein diets could work so well and this theory is the only one that I can come up with that makes sense to me.

I could explain it all to you in detail if you like.

Hey Layne, I don't question your motives at all, but if you have the time please feel free to detail an explanation. Your writing is always eloquent/well thought out and since there will (of course) be people questioning your's and Derek's motives in overdosing a mildly expensive product from a company you both represent it may be beneficial to the validity of this experiment. I understand the fundamentals, but as they still don't stress the concepts of nutrition and biochemistry nearly enough in medical school, your opinion would be appreciated.

[Beast]

Hey Layne, I don't question your motives at all, but if you have the time please feel free to detail an explanation. Your writing is always eloquent/well thought out and since there will (of course) be people questioning your's and Derek's motives in overdosing a mildly expensive product from a company you both represent it may be beneficial to the validity of this experiment. I understand the fundamentals, but as they still don't stress the concepts of nutrition and biochemistry nearly enough in medical school, your opinion would be appreciated.

Layne is working on his explaination, as there is a TON of science behind BCAA. I would explain it, but Layne will do a better job as he is quite versed in the actions of Leucine.

[Beast]

Derek,

Are you still noticing increased vascularity? This is my favorite part of it, although Katie isn't a fan of the veiny look.

I am :D
Increased vascularity is always welcome. I guess Kaite picked the wrong guy if she doesn't like veins as you are CRAZY vascular.

[uhockey]

Layne is working on his explaination, as there is a TON of science behind BCAA. I would explain it, but Layne will do a better job as he is quite versed in the actions of Leucine.

Excellent, I certainly look forward to it. :)

[derekmac]

I will be ordering this on Friday. The feedback here, as well as on other boards, has been most impressive. Kudos to Scivation for making such a quality product.

[G.W. Hayduke]

more leucine/g supplement
So leucine is the anabolic component and isoleucine and valine just stand to keep the BCAA ratio in balance?

[Scivation]

Not that I question this experient or annyones integrity but please explain, it will be interesting.

I have never asked Derek or Layne to do anything. Derek was interested in seeing if he could obtain the results I had obtained from mega-dosing Xtend.

No one here is making any outrageous claims or asking anyone to buy enough product to support this dosing schedule. We are simply seeing if this works on someone other than me. :D

[Scivation]

regardless of what you think, I am a scientist first, and an athlete of Scivation second (No Marc I will not sell you my soul :p )


Fine, don't sell your soul.

Just sell some Glutaform! :eek:

[Scivation]

I am :D
Increased vascularity is always welcome. I guess Kaite picked the wrong guy if she doesn't like veins as you are CRAZY vascular.

She met me when I weighed 295 lbs. I think I may have had a couple of veins in my hands and feet at the time!

I got the ripped look AFTER the wedding. I guess she likes fat guys.....

[Scivation]

I will be ordering this on Friday. The feedback here, as well as on other boards, has been most impressive. Kudos to Scivation for making such a quality product.

I am honored that you would try Xtend.

Let me know what you think. If you haven't tried the proteins yet, I'll gladly get you out some samples and all of that good stuff.



Thanks!

[Beast]

She met me when I weighed 295 lbs. I think I may have had a couple of veins in my hands and feet at the time!

I got the ripped look AFTER the wedding. I guess she likes fat guys.....

LOL, at least you know she just didn't marry you for your looks. Major props on the transformation though! Most guys do the exact opposite and get fat after they get married.

[Scivation]

LOL, at least you know she just didn't marry you for your looks. Major props on the transformation though! Most guys do the exact opposite and get fat after they get married.

I looked soooo cute when I was fat. Very cuddly.

[ChuckRD]

Marc, hows thqat diet goin?

[derekmac]

I am honored that you would try Xtend.

Let me know what you think. If you haven't tried the proteins yet, I'll gladly get you out some samples and all of that good stuff.



Thanks!

I will let you know how it goes. The WPI has also had some great feedback as well; someday I might spring for it (I'm such a tightwad ;) )

If you would like to send me some free samples of the protein, I would appreciate it :)

[Sixpack]

I also look forward to this

Layne is working on his explaination, as there is a TON of science behind BCAA. I would explain it, but Layne will do a better job as he is quite versed in the actions of Leucine.

[str8flexed]

So leucine is the anabolic component and isoleucine and valine just stand to keep the BCAA ratio in balance?


ok to hell with it. Here goes

Leucine is essentially the one major amino acid that the body keeps tabs on in order to know how much protein it has to work with. In other words, if leucine increases your body assumes it has ample protein and starts protein synthesis. Leucine has about 10-fold greater effect on protein synthesis than any other amino acid. This is for several reasons, most of which are not well understood. What we do know is that leucine activates mTOR. How, we aren't exactly sure, but mTOR is the major anabolic master of the cell. In short if mTOR is active, you are anabolic, if mTOR activity is reduced then your protein synthesis levels drop drastically. Leucine activates mTOR and then mTOR does a few nifty things like decreasing the amount of active 4E-BP1, a binding protein that reduces the translation of mRNA to protein. By doing this mTOR allows protein synthesis to occur. mTOR also activates the synthesis of proteins that are "helpers" in protein synthesis, thus making protein synthesis more efficient.

all of this is good stuff. Insulin also activates mTOR... however what we find is that physiological(non-supplemented) concentrations don't really do jack to mTOR, in another words, insulin isn't really anabolic in physiological doses unless you are still in the young (under 14) age bracket. However, if you give superphysiological doses of insulin you get a massive activation of mTOR and massive anabolism as many pro bodybuilders can attest. This is probably due to really high concentrations of insulin being able to overcome some sort of negative feedback loop... in another words, there is so much insulin around that it overwhelms to body's attempts to reduce it's anabolic "signal" and you get mTOR activation.

What does this have to do with leucine... well leucine activates similar pathways to insulin, and I have spoken with another grad student who also specializes in leucine and protein synthesis and he explained how massive doses of leucine are able to give an increased activation of mTOR and anabolism. I suspect what happens is by putting so much leucine in your body, the degrative pathways for leucine such as the branched chain keto acid dehydrogenase enzyme (the rate limiting enzyme for leucine degradation) become overwhelmed and you are able to push past that threshold and raise intercellular leucine concentrations over the normal level. This would lead to increased activation of mTOR & more anabolism.

This is why I suspect massive high protein (400-500g/day) diets seem to get so much positive anecodal feedback... it's not the all the protein, it's the fact that you are supplying so much leucine. Looking at the scientific literature, there is no reason to believe they would work, because at 1g/lb bodyweight protein synthesis levels just don't go any higher, but then again no one has tried going higher than about 1.3-1.5g/lb in an experiment that I know of.

I'm sure you are asking... well why not just forget all this diet stuff and only consume leucine. Well you need some balance in your amino acid intake otherwise you can have quite a few different health consequences. So long as you are getting 1g/lb of protein, i don't see anything wrong with adding some leucine or BCAAs in large doses on top of that. Additionally, you need all of the amino acids to synthesize muscle tissue. For example, if I just gave a bunch of leucine... a strong signal for protein synthesis would be initiated, but very little would occur because you would not have any other amino acids to add to the growing muscle protein chains.

I know that's a hefty dose of science, but try to read it a few times and take it all in...
any questions? ;)

-Layne

[dito]

Thanks Layne.

[uhockey]

Layne, seriously, do you ever get tired of being ripped and so friggin smart? :) Nice work as always.

[Scivation]

Marc, hows thqat diet goin?

Absolutely amazing. Losing fat and eating over 3,500 calories per day when I usually diet at less than 2,000 calories per day. Come May 26, I will be sickly shredded.

I have a great diet guy. ;)

[Scivation]

I will let you know how it goes. The WPI has also had some great feedback as well; someday I might spring for it (I'm such a tightwad ;) )

If you would like to send me some free samples of the protein, I would appreciate it :)

Email me your mailing address: mlobliner@scivation.com. I'll hook you up.

Everyone else, please click the "register" button on the websites. You will get your free sample, it'll just take a little bit. I can't handle 500 emails tonight!

[Sixpack]

Lets see it bro or email it to me damn 3500cals and loosing fat
unreal man
Absolutely amazing. Losing fat and eating over 3,500 calories per day when I usually diet at less than 2,000 calories per day. Come May 26, I will be sickly shredded.

I have a great diet guy. ;)

[Scivation]

Lets see it bro or email it to me damn 3500cals and loosing fat
unreal man

I'd love to email it, but it'd be violating the business of the man who wrote it for me.

He is actually the Director of R&D for Scivation and Primaforce. The man is a diet guru.

[G.W. Hayduke]

ok to hell with it. Here goes...

I know that's a hefty dose of science, but try to read it a few times and take it all in...
any questions? ;)

-Layne
Thanks a lot. That was a very clear and understandable explanation.

[str8flexed]

Layne, seriously, do you ever get tired of being ripped and so friggin smart? :) Nice work as always.


thanks but remember it's just my theory and I could very well be dead wrong.

-Layne

[Sixpack]

Oh hell u better not than etc well congrats man 3500cals and cutting unreal that man is a damn genious. Are you doing any cardio at all?Unreal progress man

I'd love to email it, but it'd be violating the business of the man who wrote it for me.

He is actually the Director of R&D for Scivation and Primaforce. The man is a diet guru.

[Beast]

Excellent post Layne. You deserve a rep point!

[dito]

LDAO off a "rep point"

[KGarnett21]

str8, I know you're negative on glutamine party because of it's inability to make it past the liver. Does leucine not have this same problem?

Thanks.

[str8flexed]

str8, I know you're negative on glutamine party because of it's inability to make it past the liver. Does leucine not have this same problem?

Thanks.

no, leucine is not metabolized by the mucosal cells of the small intestine. It makes it into the portal vein with high efficiency. Some catabolism takes place in the liver, but usually the liver allows passage of any essential amino acids into the blood stream to give the peripheral tissues first pass at the EAAs

-Layne

[Styleee]

This sounds like a great experiment, and I am really interested in trying this...

For those of us who can't really afford to be megadosing Xtend, what is recommended to purchase if we want to make our own homebrew?

Could this be done with BCAA bought in bulk powder alone and megadosed, or must additional compounds be added to maximize results?

[Vinnie Bobarino]

After seeing the incredible results Scivation president Marc got from sipping on Xtend all day, I decided to follow in his lead and start massive dosing Xtend. Another thing that made me decide to do this is I've always seen the best results when I am supplementing with high amounts of BCAA (i.e. when I used Leptigen and another time when I was using 30 grams of ICE and day).

We know that Leucine is the key regulator of the mTOR signaling pathway, which regulates protein synthesis and enhances glycogen synthesis activity in muscle and Leptin expression in adipocytes.

Isoleucine stimulates insulin-independent glucose uptake in skeletal muscle, which will lower plasma glucose levels.

I ran into an interesting study that showed Valine to reduce fatty acid synthase in adipocytes by 40% (in rats)[1], which would me less fat storage.

So I am intrigued. There is a lot of interesting research on BCAA and more is continuously being learned about them.

I'll update my stats and other on here on Sunday.

1. Taylor WM, Halperin ML. Effect of valine on the control of fatty acid synthesis in white adipose tissue of the rat. Can J Biochem. 1975 Oct;53(10):1054-60.

are you taking any other supplements with this?

[AcesWired]

This sounds like a great experiment, and I am really interested in trying this...

For those of us who can't really afford to be megadosing Xtend, what is recommended to purchase if we want to make our own homebrew?

Could this be done with BCAA bought in bulk powder alone and megadosed, or must additional compounds be added to maximize results?

I second that. I would really like to experiment with this as well. Don't see why you couldn't use any BCAA... I don't think this is something that would only work with Xtend, unless I'm missing something. This is going to be expensive even with bulk BCAAs though. Xtend is around $55(90 servings * 7g BCAAs per serving = 630g BCAAs), you can find some bulk BCAAs for about 40 (1000g BCAAs).

So if we were going to take 50g of BCAAs a day, the bulk would last for about 20 days, where as taking Xtend at 49g per day (7 servings) would last you about 12-13 days.

12-13 Days of Xtend, $55.
20 Days of bulk BCAAs, $40.

So even with the bulk stuff, we are still talking $120 for a two month supply. Not cheap. But it looks pretty good next to a two month supply of Xtend, which would run about $220- $275. Most people can't blow that kind of change on supplements. Of course if this experiment turns out really successful, I'm sure people will be willing to spend the money.

Of course Xtend has some extra goodies in there, like Citrulline Malate. But from what I've read, those aren't necessary nor are they the focus of this experiment. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but those don't play a vital role at all do they? We are mainly talking about just megadosing BCAA's. Even if you do need the citrulline mallate, you could put together your own blend of Xtend, and it would probably still run cheaper.

Someone correct me if I have made any mistakes here, but I don't see why you couldn't just use bulk BCAAs.

[ChuckRD]

Layne, thanks for the fantastic info in Leucine. I have researched it and BCAAs for quite sometime. I have been using HIGH DOSE BCAAs for all my clients for years. I am glad it is coming around again. I have spoke with Charles Poliquin regarding high dose BCAAs and he reommends 0.17g/lb bodyweight to be utilized pre, during and post exercise. I currently have 8 clients on high dose Xtend pre, during, post cardio and pre, during, post weight training. Each LOVES the recovery and strength/lean mass gains.

Thanks again Layne

[Scivation]

Layne, thanks for the fantastic info in Leucine. I have researched it and BCAAs for quite sometime. I have been using HIGH DOSE BCAAs for all my clients for years. I am glad it is coming around again. I have spoke with Charles Poliquin regarding high dose BCAAs and he reommends 0.17g/lb bodyweight to be utilized pre, during and post exercise. I currently have 8 clients on high dose Xtend pre, during, post cardio and pre, during, post weight training. Each LOVES the recovery and strength/lean mass gains.

Thanks again Layne

I mix 1 scoop of Grape Splash Substance WPI with 10 scoops of Xtend in a gallon water jug and drink 1/3 before, 1/3 during, and 1/3 after as prescribed. It works great and tastes awesome!

[str8flexed]

one could certainly use a bulk bcaa product. however, xtend has the advantage that it is flavored and normal bcaa's taste like ass. citrulline malate is also a nice addition.

plus wouldn't you want to support the guys who are trying to look into this for you :D

[uhockey]

one could certainly use a bulk bcaa product. however, xtend has the advantage that it is flavored and normal bcaa's taste like ass. citrulline malate is also a nice addition.

plus wouldn't you want to support the guys who are trying to look into this for you :D

If I wasn't dirt poor and living off loans, yep. :)

Honestly though, Scivation products are a great deal for the science, ingredients, and customer service behind them. When you compare the BCAA content per dollar on Xtend to any other "generic" BCAA supplement out there, the price is not far off, plus you get the extra goodies and flavoring which Layne mentioned. In addition you get a reputable company and customer support from Marc which is not just top notch, but almost instant to almost any inquiry.

[Mestizo]

Subscribe

[An Inconvenient Bro]

plus wouldn't you want to support the guys who are trying to look into this for you :D


how about a little support for the guy who suggested this 2 years ago, even if no-one listened at the time

[Beast]

are you taking any other supplements with this?

Just the basics: Creatine, Fish Oil, Antioxidants
I will be comparing my results with my past data of body composition changes and rate of growth.

[Beast]

I have spoke with Charles Poliquin regarding high dose BCAAs and he recommends 0.17g/lb bodyweight to be utilized pre, during and post exercise.


I assume this means 0.17g/lb bodyweight split between pre ,during, and post?

So for me: 210 lbs * 0.17 grams BCAA = 35.7 grams BCAA
Preworkout: 12 grams*
During Workout: 12 grams*
Post Workout: 12 grams*
*based on the calculation, it would be 11.9 (just rounding up)

Correct Chuck?
This is pretty close to what I have done in the past, but I've never mega dosed BCAA throughout the rest of the day.

[Beast]

how about a little support for the guy who suggested this 2 years ago, even if no-one listened at the time

I've been using ICE and VEDETTA since they were released, but you never asked me to work your booth at an expo (sticks out tongue).

[dito]

how about a little support for the guy who suggested this 2 years ago, even if no-one listened at the time

Dito megadosed.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

how did it work for you Armando?

[An Inconvenient Bro]

I've been using ICE and VEDETTA since they were released, but you never asked me to work your booth at an expo (sticks out tongue).
hey the last booth we had you were working for Avant. You are in high demand

[dito]

how did it work for you Armando?

If I remember I had good size and strength gains. Also had a "perpetual pump". It's been almost a year and a half since I was megadosing maybe longer. My memory isn't so great in my old age.

[avian]

I assume this means 0.17g/lb bodyweight split between pre ,during, and post?

So for me: 210 lbs * 0.17 grams BCAA = 35.7 grams BCAA
Preworkout: 12 grams*
During Workout: 12 grams*
Post Workout: 12 grams*
*based on the calculation, it would be 11.9 (just rounding up)

Correct Chuck?
This is pretty close to what I have done in the past, but I've never mega dosed BCAA throughout the rest of the day.
The post WO dose will be along with pwo shake?

[bachovas]

how about a little support for the guy who suggested this 2 years ago, even if no-one listened at the time

Coño, hello.

I'm going to go with this too.

In my case I will use ICE from Xtreme Formulations, as I already take BodyOctane everyday, and feel I don't need the extra citrulline malate from Xtend.
I will be starting in ~2 weeks, later this month (28-31st). Should have received it by then.

This should be after I finish this UD2.0 cycle, which I'm cutting short a week or two, because I cannot keep living like a freaking zombie. Damn setpoint.

Anyway, I should have 10-14 days of eating under maintenance, at the start of this experiment.

Thinking 50-60grs daily, 20-30 pre, during and post, and 30-40 during the rest of the day (total BCAA intake, 33-40grs).
Essentially the same protocol they'll be doing with Xtend.


Or perhaps Dave would prefer it if I try it with a different dosing/timing?

[str8flexed]

how about a little support for the guy who suggested this 2 years ago, even if no-one listened at the time


how's about a kiss ;)

Dave, I've always recommended ICE and have continued to do so. In fact i've probably purchased about 5 bottles of it over the past few years ;)

I got love for ya brother

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Bachovas I must have missed that post sorry. Thanks to you too str8, I know for awhile you had gone anti FFAA's, good to see you back!

[str8flexed]

Bachovas I must have missed that post sorry. Thanks to you too str8, I know for awhile you had gone anti FFAA's, good to see you back!

well now, I just have a theory... I could be dead wrong. Hopefully not though because then I could say I had **** on lock down as far as a mechanism :D

[WorldMuscle]

Its up to you whether you'll do this or not. I know a guy who eats well and takes eas simply whey protein, some creatine, and thats it. He was also the #1 natural teen bodybuilder in the country and only came in second place once.

His name? Anthony Church

[str8flexed]

I know anthony well, who do you think helped him get ready for a few of that show :) ?

Anthony is an awsome bodybuilder, but some people get great results even if they aren't optimizing their body's potential. This is all theory now, but if it does work then it might be the next big thing. If not... then it's back to the drawing board.

[WorldMuscle]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/tl/yeast.html

Brewer's yeast is pretty cheap and has alot of bcaa's, so do Liver Tabs. I remember Big Cat talking about them several years ago for a good supplment that was cheap and high quality.

[R_N_S]

Its up to you whether you'll do this or not. I know a guy who eats well and takes eas simply whey protein, some creatine, and thats it. He was also the #1 natural teen bodybuilder in the country and only came in second place once.

His name? Anthony Church


have you ever heard of the term genetics? yes i'm sure he worked hard, ate right, had complete dedication, but, especially in teen bodybuilding, genetics play a huge role in results, with competitors having only 5-6 years of training behind them, those with good genetics pull ahead of the competition easily

[WorldMuscle]

Yeah Layne it could be big if it caught on, but it sure is expensive. Alot of those old time holistic doctors said that in order to really recieve the effects of the vitamins that we should take quite a bit higher dose than what we usually do. Like 4-5000mg of vitamin C instead of the 1000 that most people might take a day.


I remember a while back when I worked at a GNC we had those orange vitamin C chews. Well I'd have about 6-7 a day and I'd feel great leaving work, almost as if I had no stress from the workday and completely relaxed. Now I buy these vitmin C wafer type things from walgreens. Taste pretty good and help jack you up.


Btw layne page me sometime, I've got access to the best energy drinks in the world. 4900% of the daily does of vitamin B, antioxidants, 0 carbs and 0 sugar, and the stores will never have access to them. Several flavors and they taste like pop. Number 1 brand in australia and #2 behind Red Bull here in the US, we'll be #1 by next year.

[R_N_S]

anybody found a protein powder/gainer with a high bcaa count? i just bought ultimate nutrition's massive gainer, looks like a real solid gainer, even though anything with high calories does it for me, but that has 13 grams of bcaa's, anybody found one with more?


and also, how are you guys accounting for bcaa's from food? it'd cut down on cost a ton if we could get 10-20 grams from food, i just have no clue where to find info on what food has what amount

[391rippy]

Btw layne page me sometime, I've got access to the best energy drinks in the world. 4900% of the daily does of vitamin B, antioxidants, 0 carbs and 0 sugar, and the stores will never have access to them. Several flavors and they taste like pop. Number 1 brand in australia and #2 behind Red Bull here in the US, we'll be #1 by next year.
oh yeh, i love me some XS :)

[str8flexed]

Yeah Layne it could be big if it caught on, but it sure is expensive. Alot of those old time holistic doctors said that in order to really recieve the effects of the vitamins that we should take quite a bit higher dose than what we usually do. Like 4-5000mg of vitamin C instead of the 1000 that most people might take a day.


I remember a while back when I worked at a GNC we had those orange vitamin C chews. Well I'd have about 6-7 a day and I'd feel great leaving work, almost as if I had no stress from the workday and completely relaxed. Now I buy these vitmin C wafer type things from walgreens. Taste pretty good and help jack you up.


Btw layne page me sometime, I've got access to the best energy drinks in the world. 4900% of the daily does of vitamin B, antioxidants, 0 carbs and 0 sugar, and the stores will never have access to them. Several flavors and they taste like pop. Number 1 brand in australia and #2 behind Red Bull here in the US, we'll be #1 by next year.


so you are involved in the souper system i take it? that own your own business thing?

[str8flexed]

anybody found a protein powder/gainer with a high bcaa count? i just bought ultimate nutrition's massive gainer, looks like a real solid gainer, even though anything with high calories does it for me, but that has 13 grams of bcaa's, anybody found one with more?


and also, how are you guys accounting for bcaa's from food? it'd cut down on cost a ton if we could get 10-20 grams from food, i just have no clue where to find info on what food has what amount


consuming free form amino acids is totally different than consuming whole proteins

[R_N_S]

ah, ok, so bcaa powder and protein powder is really the only sources we have for this then, o well, can't wait to see all the "my 8 week cycle of bcaa" threads about to pop up now

[391rippy]

so you are involved in the souper system i take it? that own your own business thing?
no, you don't have to own your own business to buy XS. it can be bought at www.quixtar.com ibo#3912786. it's like an on-line sams club store

[kbickham]

Are you saying you put on 30lbs of muscle in 2 months using BCAA's?? LOL

i know right!? i can't believe what i'm hearing. not to be an ASS.. but eveyone needs to take a step back and look at this situation. i'm not reagging on high doses od bcaa's...but this thread seems a little to comercialized for me to take it seriously

[uhockey]

So I see Marc saying 10 scoops Xtend plus one scoop Substance in a gallon of water divided into 1/3 pre/during/post workout plus the addition of "sipping" an Xtend mixture throughout the day. All told, on average, how many scoops of Xtend per day was Marc consuming and how many will Derek and Layne be taking per day during the course of this experiment?

[kbickham]

Yeah Layne it could be big if it caught on, but it sure is expensive. Alot of those old time holistic doctors said that in order to really recieve the effects of the vitamins that we should take quite a bit higher dose than what we usually do. Like 4-5000mg of vitamin C instead of the 1000 that most people might take a day.


I remember a while back when I worked at a GNC we had those orange vitamin C chews. Well I'd have about 6-7 a day and I'd feel great leaving work, almost as if I had no stress from the workday and completely relaxed. Now I buy these vitmin C wafer type things from walgreens. Taste pretty good and help jack you up.


Btw layne page me sometime, I've got access to the best energy drinks in the world. 4900% of the daily does of vitamin B, antioxidants, 0 carbs and 0 sugar, and the stores will never have access to them. Several flavors and they taste like pop. Number 1 brand in australia and #2 behind Red Bull here in the US, we'll be #1 by next year.

ummmm........wow again, this is 180 degrees in abstract to all the reputable studies done against micronutrient consumption in humans. 4900& antioxidants...depending on which ones, that could be real f*ing studpid

[Sixpack]

Damn well 2 scoops I think is one serving so 5 servings pre-during and post ?



So I see Marc saying 10 scoops Xtend plus one scoop Substance in a gallon of water divided into 1/3 pre/during/post workout plus the addition of "sipping" an Xtend mixture throughout the day. All told, on average, how many scoops of Xtend per day was Marc consuming and how many will Derek and Layne be taking per day during the course of this experiment?

[Styleee]

Wow 10 scoops of Xtend in one jug for one day?

At that rate, that means you're done with a tub of Xtend in just 9 days... which is why I cannot afford to megadose it.

I am going to try to get some Bulk BCAA, and Bulk CEE, mix them, but megadose the BCAA. Should taste horrendous but I'll think of something.

I'm going to experiement with that, should be interesting.

[avian]

Wow 10 scoops of Xtend in one jug for one day?

At that rate, that means you're done with a tub of Xtend in just 9 days... which is why I cannot afford to megadose it.

I am going to try to get some Bulk BCAA, and Bulk CEE, mix them, but megadose the BCAA. Should taste horrendous but I'll think of something.

I'm going to experiement with that, should be interesting.
should last 18 days, not 9

[Beast]

Wow 10 scoops of Xtend in one jug for one day?

At that rate, that means you're done with a tub of Xtend in just 9 days... which is why I cannot afford to megadose it.

I am going to try to get some Bulk BCAA, and Bulk CEE, mix them, but megadose the BCAA. Should taste horrendous but I'll think of something.

I'm going to experiement with that, should be interesting.

Orange juice flavored Crystal light is pretty good at masking the taste of things. I remember the first time I used unflavored BCAA. Through some a water bottle and was planning on sipping it throughout my cardio... not a fun session.

[AcesWired]

Orange juice flavored Crystal light is pretty good at masking the taste of things. I remember the first time I used unflavored BCAA. Through some a water bottle and was planning on sipping it throughout my cardio... not a fun session.


Thats what I was planning on doing. I was just going to experiment with different chrystal light flavors and see which one was the most tolerable. Maybe throw in some Citruline malate for good measure. I would love to try this with Xtend (I'm sure it tastes much better), I just can't afford to.

[Beast]

i know right!? i can't believe what i'm hearing. not to be an ASS.. but eveyone needs to take a step back and look at this situation. i'm not reagging on high doses od bcaa's...but this thread seems a little to comercialized for me to take it seriously

Having seen Marc personally at the Olympia in October and then again at the Arnold a week ago (about 4 months total time), I can say the man blew up! After seeing this and talking with Marc, I decided to try out the mega dosing BCAA. I am not expecting to gain 20-30 pounds in 6 weeks (though if I do I will be quite pleased). So we'll just have to see what happens.

[uhockey]

I believe you missed my question up the page Derek. Will your total be 10 scoops xtend per day or more?

[ChuckRD]

I assume this means 0.17g/lb bodyweight split between pre ,during, and post?

So for me: 210 lbs * 0.17 grams BCAA = 35.7 grams BCAA
Preworkout: 12 grams*
During Workout: 12 grams*
Post Workout: 12 grams*
*based on the calculation, it would be 11.9 (just rounding up)

Correct Chuck?
This is pretty close to what I have done in the past, but I've never mega dosed BCAA throughout the rest of the day.

Correct Derek, this is what I have been doing for quite sometime now. The only other time I have used BCAAs other than pre, post and during training is before bed with some additional WPI/Cal Caseinate blend. I used it with a few of my fitness/figure women. It seemed to preserve muscle as I was dieting them down.

[ChuckRD]

The post WO dose will be along with pwo shake?

The amount of BCCAs at 0.17g/lb is what I have my clients do all in 1 shake. They sip on 1/3 before training, sip on 1/3 during and the rest is finalized at the end of training. Then when they get home (hopefully no more than a 10-15 drive) they have their post workout meal. So for Derek @ 210 he I would recommend 10 scoops Xtend along with 1 scoop Substance to be consumed 1/3 prior to training, 1/3 sipped on during training and the final 1/3 pounded at the the end of training.

Sorry if I confused people.

Chuck

[Styleee]

Orange juice flavored Crystal light is pretty good at masking the taste of things. I remember the first time I used unflavored BCAA. Through some a water bottle and was planning on sipping it throughout my cardio... not a fun session.

Thanks Derek I'll definitely pick up some Crystal light as well. Does my idea sound legit in terms of your experiment or is there anything that needs to be added?

When I'm done with the bulk powder and I see that the experiment went well I will definitely just pick up some Xtend to use at normal dosage. :cool:

[Beast]

I believe you missed my question up the page Derek. Will your total be 10 scoops xtend per day or more?

14 scoops per day on workout days (4 days a week) and 10 scoops on my rest day (other 3 days).

[Beast]

Thanks for the input Chuck.
I thought it was kind of funny, so I took a pic of my gallon jug filled with Xtend and water.

[Beast]

Thanks Derek I'll definitely pick up some Crystal light as well. Does my idea sound legit in terms of your experiment or is there anything that needs to be added?



Definitely legit.

[Sixpack]

Hey D how many servings do u have in the jug? 5 servings (10scoops or do u have 14 scoops 7 servings? damn thats alot haha

14 scoops per day on workout days (4 days a week) and 10 scoops on my rest day (other 3 days).

[dito]

Marc :D

<img src=http://www.thebullmagazine.com/magazine/images/fmdogs14.jpg>

[Scivation]

i know right!? i can't believe what i'm hearing. not to be an ASS.. but eveyone needs to take a step back and look at this situation. i'm not reagging on high doses od bcaa's...but this thread seems a little to comercialized for me to take it seriously

I NEVER claimed that this alone caused my results. I simply stated this was the only variable I changed in my disgustingly stringent diet and training program (along with NOxidant).

Also, I am not the one who noticed and announced the results, someone who saw me before and after did.

I will never state that "x" product put "x" amount of weight in "x" amount of time. That's not what my companies are about.

[Scivation]

Marc :D

<img src=http://www.thebullmagazine.com/magazine/images/fmdogs14.jpg>


Pookie and Sage are CUTE!

[morgansd12]

Thanks for the input Chuck.
I thought it was kind of funny, so I took a pic of my gallon jug filled with Xtend and water.

Just wondering how many ethnically inappropriate grape juice jokes you get per day?

[Mestizo]

I'm going to try this too. Would the bb.com store be the cheapest place to buy 2 tubs of Xtend?

[str8flexed]

I'm going to try this too. Would the bb.com store be the cheapest place to buy 2 tubs of Xtend?

\
not sure... bbing.com is always pretty cheap but as with anything shop around and see if you find specials anywhere

[MotorcityAl]

Very interesting. Suscribe.

[Mestizo]

Ok...I've read 2 different methods on this thread.

There's the straight 10 scoops of Xtend mixed in a gallon of water which is consumed thru out the day.

Then there's a formula based on bodyweight which would be 33 grams or about 5 scoops of Xtend for me.

Which one is it?

What is the definition of 1 serving? According to the Xtend label, 1 serving is 2 scoops and 11-12 grams.

So, according to the first method (10 scoops), you would use about 55-60 grams in a gallon of water per day? That means you can get about 17-19 days worth from a 1035 container?

[Beast]

Just wondering how many ethnically inappropriate grape juice jokes you get per day?

Zero

[Beast]

Per 1 serving (2 scoops) 7 of the 11 grams are BCAA. So when calculating your BCAA intake keep this in mind.

Ok...I've read 2 different methods on this thread.

There's the straight 10 scoops of Xtend mixed in a gallon of water which is consumed thru out the day.

Then there's a formula based on bodyweight which would be 33 grams or about 5 scoops of Xtend for me.

Which one is it?

What is the definition of 1 serving? According to the Xtend label, 1 serving is 2 scoops and 11-12 grams.

So, according to the first method (10 scoops), you would use about 55-60 grams in a gallon of water per day? That means you can get about 17-19 days worth from a 1035 container?

[Mestizo]

Per 1 serving (2 scoops) 7 of the 11 grams are BCAA. So when calculating your BCAA intake keep this in mind.

Thanks! But which method should I be using...

10 scoops of Xtend in a gallon of water for each day...or .17 grams of BCAA per pound of bodyweight?

[bachovas]

Have 4 servings of Xtend pre-during-post, and have 3 more mixed, to sip during the rest of the day.

That should give you around 50grs of BCAA's per day.

On non-workout days mix 5-6 servings and sip on that all day.

[Mestizo]

Have 4 servings of Xtend pre-during-post, and have 3 more mixed, to sip during the rest of the day.

That should give you around 50grs of BCAA's per day.

On non-workout days mix 5-6 servings and sip on that all day.

So 7 servings or 14 scoops on workout days and 5-6 servings or 10-12 scoops on off days?

[bachovas]

That's right. One container will last you ~15days.

A month should be enough time to give it a fair assessment. Not cheap, but is a good experiment after all.


"In the name of science".

[str8flexed]

I mean you guys don't have to buy it right now... you could always just wait to see what the results of others are if you are strapped for cash.

-Layne

[Mestizo]

That's right. One container will last you ~15days.

A month should be enough time to give it a fair assessment. Not cheap, but is a good experiment after all.


"In the name of science".

Well, I'm willing to put up the cash to try a month's cycle.

[bachovas]

I mean you guys don't have to buy it right now... you could always just wait to see what the results of others are if you are strapped for cash.

-Layne


That's always an option. Except that if you and Derek happen to do very well on this experiment, what would this tell us?

IMO, basically nothing. In any case, I would wait for results on "normal" people.

[Sixpack]

I consider Derek and layne normal people

[RippedUp]

I've been using Xtend during my WOs (~3-4 scoops) with nice results.

Today I tried one big serving of SAN CM2 just before my leg WO, along with sipping on my usual Xtend drink during training, and experienced my best workout in quite a while.

Great combo!

[krustster]

I'd just like to add my own personal experience to the topic here... back in late January, I remember reading Marc's post about taking BCAA (Extend) throughout the day and thought I'd try it myself, especially since I had already been toying with this idea after reading articles about BCAA supplementation. So what I did was take about 50-60g (do'nt know for sure, I just used a scoop for my measurements) of a bulk powder and mixed it in a gallon of water with some Crystal Light or whatever, and just went trhough the day drinking it at my leisure. I was also cutting, mind you. Well, some time passed--not sure how much, since I wasn't really conducting a test as such--and I actually stopped losing weight and gained 2-3 pounds, much to my disgust, but bodyfat testing revealed that I had dropped about 2-3% in that same timeframe. I didn't think to much about the connection at the time but in retrospect, I would be hard pressed to believe it a coincidence.

[Scivation]

I consider Derek and layne normal people

No they're not. They're weirdos!

[391rippy]

what is the formula for total daily amount? .17gr/lb for pre-during-post workout, but how much should we do during the day and total?

also, i workout early in the afternoon, so for someone like me would it be good to have one dose in the morning, and two later in the day? or vice versa?

thanks

[str8flexed]

That's always an option. Except that if you and Derek happen to do very well on this experiment, what would this tell us?

IMO, basically nothing. In any case, I would wait for results on "normal" people.

"normal?"

not really sure what you are referring to. If you mean our affiliation with scivation... I can appreciate that I supposse. But if you mean by the fact that we are advanced trainers... if anything, that would be even more impressive as the more advanced you get the more resistant your body becomes to improvement in body composition.

-Layne

[Sixpack]

Layne and Derek bust there ass , just take a look at their workouts, very impressive. I for one know how Dereks workouts are he sets up mine and has opened my eyes on a new type of training. Props to both of these guys> DOn't think the BCAA's contributed to what these two have accomplished

[Styleee]

Well for those of you that wanna wait it out and see the results of others, I'm purchasing Bulk BCAA along with some more Bulk CEE and will be megadosing the BCAA. I will keep a log to let you know how it goes and keep track of my weight, strength, endurance, pumps, etc.

I also want to be taking an NO product for none other reason than I am a great responder and fan of getting the "NO pump."

I may pick up some NOxidant or Cold Fusion for my NO product, as well as some Substance for protein (just because it's friggen delicious).

[ford4life]

Well for those of you that wanna wait it out and see the results of others, I'm purchasing Bulk BCAA along with some more Bulk CEE and will be megadosing the BCAA. I will keep a log to let you know how it goes and keep track of my weight, strength, endurance, pumps, etc.

I also want to be taking an NO product for none other reason than I am a great responder and fan of getting the "NO pump."

I may pick up some NOxidant or Cold Fusion for my NO product, as well as some Substance for protein (just because it's friggen delicious).
if your going bulk you might as well get aakg or di-arg malate while your at it instead of a premade one

[Beast]

"normal?"

if anything, that would be even more impressive as the more advanced you get the more resistant your body becomes to improvement in body composition.

-Layne

And Bingo was he name-o.

[Beast]

I'd just like to add my own personal experience to the topic here... back in late January, I remember reading Marc's post about taking BCAA (Extend) throughout the day and thought I'd try it myself, especially since I had already been toying with this idea after reading articles about BCAA supplementation. So what I did was take about 50-60g (do'nt know for sure, I just used a scoop for my measurements) of a bulk powder and mixed it in a gallon of water with some Crystal Light or whatever, and just went trhough the day drinking it at my leisure. I was also cutting, mind you. Well, some time passed--not sure how much, since I wasn't really conducting a test as such--and I actually stopped losing weight and gained 2-3 pounds, much to my disgust, but bodyfat testing revealed that I had dropped about 2-3% in that same timeframe. I didn't think to much about the connection at the time but in retrospect, I would be hard pressed to believe it a coincidence.

Interesting. Thanks for the feedback.

[Beast]

No they're not. They're weirdos!

I've been called a lot of things, but WEIRDO!!! That's crossing the line!
My mom thinks I'm cool...

[G.W. Hayduke]

And Bingo was he name-o.
Your grammar proves it! WEIRDOS! :eek:

[Beast]

Your grammar proves it! WEIRDOS! :eek:

You should know by now I grew up in the ghetto.

[G.W. Hayduke]

You should know by now I grew up in the ghetto.
Damn, it feels good to be a gangsta.

[bachovas]

"normal?"

not really sure what you are referring to. If you mean our affiliation with scivation... I can appreciate that I supposse. But if you mean by the fact that we are advanced trainers... if anything, that would be even more impressive as the more advanced you get the more resistant your body becomes to improvement in body composition.

-Layne

I have no problem with your affiliation with Scivation or any other company, as I trust your feedback.

Said that, I'm afraid I mean what you don't want to hear, the fact that you're more blessed than some of us.

This does not mean you don't work hard, or that you don't keep a strict diet. That's sine qua non, and I happen to do that too.

How can I put it? Imagine having two people with the same exact body composition. And they're put on the same training and diet regimen.

Who do you think will gain more lbm and less bodyfat? The person with your (or Derek's) genetical makeup or the person who was fat all his life before getting to the starting body composition? You think they will the same ratio of muscle:fat?

Poorly explain, but you get my point.

This also means, in your case, that if you're training to put on muscle, and are taking in enough calories, you will put muscle regardless of the BCAA's, maybe 5 pounds instead of 8, but you will grow anyway.

This is what I meant by results on "normal" people.


BTW, I believe the correct term is "freak". Weirdo? ****, we're all weirdos here.

[uhockey]

You should know by now I grew up in the ghetto.

Haha, don't you live up in Ann Arbor? I'm not sure someplace that liberal and (dare I say) hippy can be ghetto. :) That said, I do try to make it up there monthly as I simply love the campus, small concert venues, Whole Food, and Trader Joes.

[Beast]

Haha, don't you live up in Ann Arbor? I'm not sure someplace that liberal and (dare I say) hippy can be ghetto. :) That said, I do try to make it up there monthly as I simply love the campus, small concert venues, Whole Food, and Trader Joes.

I do now, but I did not grow up here.

[dito]

All you can do is put your all into working with what you have.

Or half ass it like Dito. Had 2 Guinness tonight.

[Beast]

Yeah I know what you are saying. I find it funny when people say I have good genetics when compared to Dexter Jackson, who just started doing cardio and measuring his food like 2 years ago, my genetics suck. I feel that since we have no control over our genetic make-up it should not be an issue. All you can do is put your all into working with what you have.

I have no problem with your affiliation with Scivation or any other company, as I trust your feedback.

Said that, I'm afraid I mean what you don't want to hear, the fact that you're more blessed than some of us.

This does not mean you don't work hard, or that you don't keep a strict diet. That's sine qua non, and I happen to do that too.

How can I put it? Imagine having two people with the same exact body composition. And they're put on the same training and diet regimen.

Who do you think will gain more lbm and less bodyfat? The person with your (or Derek's) genetical makeup or the person who was fat all his life before getting to the starting body composition? You think they will the same ratio of muscle:fat?

Poorly explain, but you get my point.

This also means, in your case, that if you're training to put on muscle, and are taking in enough calories, you will put muscle regardless of the BCAA's, maybe 5 pounds instead of 8, but you will grow anyway.

This is what I meant by results on "normal" people.


BTW, I believe the correct term is "freak". Weirdo? ****, we're all weirdos here.

[dito]

Why do my posts always end up at the top. Like above the one I am quoting?

[Mestizo]

I just placed an order for 2 containers of Xtend from the bb.com store. I might have them by Sat. Looking forward to starting on a cycle on Monday.

[Beast]

Why do my posts always end up at the top. Like above the one I am quoting?

That is crazy. Must be the Dito power.

[dito]

That's what I was thinking. I don't think I am that drunk.

[Beast]

Study I ran across

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Nov 23;

The combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases post-exercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.

Koopman R, Wagenmakers AJ, Manders RJ, Zorenc AH, Senden JM, Gorselink M, Keizer HA, van Loon LJ.

Department of Human Biology, Nutrition Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

The present study was designed to determine post-exercise muscle protein synthesis and whole-body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to 3 trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein and free leucine (CHO+PRO+leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-(13)C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the m. vastus lateralis as well as whole-body protein turnover during 6 h of post-exercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+leu compared to the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240+/-19% and +77+/-11%, respectively, P<0.05). Whole-body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole-body protein synthesis rates were higher in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+leu trials compared to the CHO trial (P<0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared to the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial, but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+leu trial, whole-body net protein balance was significantly greater compared to values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P<0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6h period of post-exercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+leu trial compared to the CHO trial (0.095+/-0.006 %(.)h(-1) vs. 0.061+/-0.008 %(.)h(-1), respectively; P<0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104 %(.)h(-1)). We conclude that the co-ingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole-body protein balance when compared to the intake of carbohydrate only.

[R_N_S]

good study to read, but nothing we didn't expect really, just good to read some positive scientific data


i wish we could find out how much carbs, protein, and leucine they were taking post workout though

[G.W. Hayduke]

That's what I was thinking. I don't think I am that drunk.
Does drunkenness enhance The Power?

[str8flexed]

"Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared to the CHO+PRO trial."

interesting

[Styleee]

if your going bulk you might as well get aakg or di-arg malate while your at it instead of a premade one

Yeah I may add the di-arg or some taurine as well I'm not sure yet... I'm placing an order by Sunday.

[Beast]

good study to read, but nothing we didn't expect really, just good to read some positive scientific data


i wish we could find out how much carbs, protein, and leucine they were taking post workout though

I'll try to get the full study and post the amounts later today.

[Beast]

So far, I've noticed I am leaning out some and becoming more vascular (both when not working out and in the gym). I had 2 people give me positive comments on my appearance today, which also confirms my findings. I will post official stat changes on Sunday.

[Ikaika]

Very interesting. Keep up the thorough work Derek, we all appreciate it.

[Scivation]

So far, I've noticed I am leaning out some and becoming more vascular (both when not working out and in the gym). I had 2 people give me positive comments on my appearance today, which also confirms my findings. I will post official stat changes on Sunday.

"You are a very attractive man."

Make that 3 people....