Long term creatine effects?

[TinyMan]

Is there anyone who could point me to some studies on the long-term effects of using creatine, either beneficial or detrimental effects? Still considering creatine - but if there are detrimental effects (or if the issue hasn't properly been addressed) I don't think I'm going to go near that stuff. BTW - not looking for the 'scientific' claims that these companies make... I'm looking for real evidence... Did a forum search on here, and been looking on the net, haven't really found anything so far.


Thanks
Tinyman

[PowerSwede]

Is there anyone who could point me to some studies on the long-term effects of using creatine, either beneficial or detrimental effects? Still considering creatine - but if there are detrimental effects (or if the issue hasn't properly been addressed) I don't think I'm going to go near that stuff. BTW - not looking for the 'scientific' claims that these companies make... I'm looking for real evidence... Did a forum search on here, and been looking on the net, haven't really found anything so far.


Thanks
Tinyman

Here are a couple that show that long term creatine supplementation is not harmful to the kidneys or liver:

Kreider R, Rasmussen C, Ransom C, Melton C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Almada A, Greenhaff P. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect markers of renal stress in athletes.

Almada A, Kreider R, Ransom J, Melton C, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Earnest C. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect muscle or liver enzyme efflux in athletes.

Another one that measured blood level abnormalities:

Schroder H, Terrados N, Tramullas A. Risk assessment of the potential side effects of long–term creatine supplementation in team sport athletes.

If you need more i suggest you do a search on PubMed.

[TinyMan]

Did some searching of my own...

Risk assessment of the potential side effects of long-term creatine supplementation in team sport athletes.

Schroder H, Terrados N, Tramullas A.

Bemben MG, Lamont HS.

Neuromuscular Research Laboratory, Department of Health and Sport Sciences, University of Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, USA.

Plasma guanidino compounds are altered by oral creatine supplementation in healthy humans.

Derave W, Marescau B, Vanden Eede E, Eijnde BO, De Deyn PP, Hespel P.

Creatine supplementation and athletic performance.

Racette SB.

Effects of creatine use on the athlete's kidney.

Farquhar WB, Zambraski EJ.

Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes.

Kreider RB, Melton C, Rasmussen CJ, Greenwood M, Lancaster S, Cantler EC, Milnor P, Almada AL.

Conclusion: There's too much uncertainty, and to a degree conflicting information, for me to consider taking this stuff... from my current reading, creatine is too potentially dangerous to consider taking.

Cheers,
Tinyman

[PowerSwede]

Did some searching of my own...

Risk assessment of the potential side effects of long-term creatine supplementation in team sport athletes.

Schroder H, Terrados N, Tramullas A.

Bemben MG, Lamont HS.

Neuromuscular Research Laboratory, Department of Health and Sport Sciences, University of Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, USA.

Plasma guanidino compounds are altered by oral creatine supplementation in healthy humans.

Derave W, Marescau B, Vanden Eede E, Eijnde BO, De Deyn PP, Hespel P.

Creatine supplementation and athletic performance.

Racette SB.

Effects of creatine use on the athlete's kidney.

Farquhar WB, Zambraski EJ.

Long-term creatine supplementation does not significantly affect clinical markers of health in athletes.

Kreider RB, Melton C, Rasmussen CJ, Greenwood M, Lancaster S, Cantler EC, Milnor P, Almada AL.

Conclusion: There's too much uncertainty, and to a degree conflicting information, for me to consider taking this stuff... from my current reading, creatine is too potentially dangerous to consider taking.

Cheers,
Tinyman

*shakes head*

You didn't actually read any of those studies, did you?

[satanfuneral]

Here are a couple that show that long term creatine supplementation is not harmful to the kidneys or liver:

Kreider R, Rasmussen C, Ransom C, Melton C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Almada A, Greenhaff P. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect markers of renal stress in athletes.

Almada A, Kreider R, Ransom J, Melton C, Rasmussen C, Greenwood M, Stroud T, Cantler E, Milnor P, Earnest C. Long-term creatine supplementation does not affect muscle or liver enzyme efflux in athletes.

Another one that measured blood level abnormalities:

Schroder H, Terrados N, Tramullas A. Risk assessment of the potential side effects of long–term creatine supplementation in team sport athletes.

If you need more i suggest you do a search on PubMed.

PowerSwede, u forgot to post this 5 years study.:)

Long-term oral creatine supplementation does not impair renal function in healthy athletes.

Poortmans JR, Francaux M.

Chimie Physiologique, Institut Superieur d'Education Physique et de Kinesitherapie, Universite Libre de Bruxelles, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: Oral creatine supplementation is widely used in sportsmen and women. Side effects have been postulated, but no thorough investigations have been conducted to support these assertions. It is important to know whether long-term oral creatine supplementation has any detrimental effects on kidney function in healthy population. METHODS: Creatinine, urea, and plasma albumin clearances have been determined in oral creatine consumers (10 months to 5 yr) and in a control group. RESULTS: There were no statistical differences between the control group and the creatine consumer group for plasma contents and urine excretion rates for creatinine, urea, and albumin. Clearance of these compounds did not differ between the two groups. Thus, glomerular filtration rate, tubular reabsorption, and glomerular membrane permeability were normal in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Neither short-term, medium-term, nor long-term oral creatine supplements induce detrimental effects on the kidney of healthy individuals.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Aug;31(8)

[PowerSwede]

PowerSwede, u forgot to post this 5 years study.:)

Long-term oral creatine supplementation does not impair renal function in healthy athletes.

Poortmans JR, Francaux M.

Chimie Physiologique, Institut Superieur d'Education Physique et de Kinesitherapie, Universite Libre de Bruxelles, Brussels, Belgium. jrpoortm@ulb.ac.be

PURPOSE: Oral creatine supplementation is widely used in sportsmen and women. Side effects have been postulated, but no thorough investigations have been conducted to support these assertions. It is important to know whether long-term oral creatine supplementation has any detrimental effects on kidney function in healthy population. METHODS: Creatinine, urea, and plasma albumin clearances have been determined in oral creatine consumers (10 months to 5 yr) and in a control group. RESULTS: There were no statistical differences between the control group and the creatine consumer group for plasma contents and urine excretion rates for creatinine, urea, and albumin. Clearance of these compounds did not differ between the two groups. Thus, glomerular filtration rate, tubular reabsorption, and glomerular membrane permeability were normal in both groups. CONCLUSIONS: Neither short-term, medium-term, nor long-term oral creatine supplements induce detrimental effects on the kidney of healthy individuals.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Aug;31(8)

Thanx, i should probably start organizing the studies a bit better, but there's no real hurry since you're watching my back. :)

Good post, as usual.

[TinyMan]

I did read the studies - I did not say that they pointed to there being a danger to taking creatine, however there is a lot of uncertainty. Given what I read, I can't conclude that creatine usage is safe, although a couple of studies do indicate that it is. Creatine happens to be outside of my tolerance levels; however you interpret it is your choice.

[DIESELWARRIOR]

There isn't any 100% sure and proved study on creatine. Best suggestion...scared and have doubts, don't take it . Speaking from personal experience, i took creatine like for 4 month(1 mounth cycle)...Year later im perfectly healthy,checked my kidney,liver function and blood..clean 100%...No side effects...

[satanfuneral]

Thanx, i should probably start organizing the studies a bit better, but there's no real hurry since you're watching my back. :)

Good post, as usual.

Always at your service Sir :)

[PowerSwede]

I did read the studies - I did not say that they pointed to there being a danger to taking creatine, however there is a lot of uncertainty. Given what I read, I can't conclude that creatine usage is safe, although a couple of studies do indicate that it is. Creatine happens to be outside of my tolerance levels; however you interpret it is your choice.

The studies point in the other direction, that there is not adverse health effects for long term creatine use. AFAIC there is no question regarding the safety of long term creatine supplementation (i have been on creatine for several years by now) but it is your choice.

You're still going to have ~75g/100lbs of creatine in your body though, even without supplementation. ;)

[TinyMan]

This is probably a dumb question, but what does AFAIC stand for? I've never seen that acronym used before.

Well, if it's 75g/100 lb of body weight, then I guess I'll stick to just have ~75g for now, and maybe consider it again once I gain more weight/muscle/whatever. I don't think I ever did voice that, and I should have, but it seems to me like 5g of creatine would affect me more than a normal person (who would weight 1.5-2x more than I do). 5g over 110 pounds, as compared to a typical 19-20 year old who weighs what, 150-200?

Thanks for your time, pity it just never went anywhere.
Tinyman

[musclemilk]

there are a lot of people that categorize creatine with steroids\ph's and it pissees me off.

any of you guys get this ignorant histeria also?

[TinyMan]

Really? I hadn't even heard of that... some of the conclusions people make are really strange... Heck, even some of mine probably seem really strange, if you've read what I've posted above. I don't see how someone can get creatine mixed up with a steroid/prohormone though.. maybe the bad press that creatine got, and people associated it with the "drug/steroid abuse" image that bodybuilding has gotten? Just a hypothesis, I have no evidence to back any of that up.

Cheers
Tinyman

[PowerSwede]

This is probably a dumb question, but what does AFAIC stand for? I've never seen that acronym used before.

Well, if it's 75g/100 lb of body weight, then I guess I'll stick to just have ~75g for now, and maybe consider it again once I gain more weight/muscle/whatever. I don't think I ever did voice that, and I should have, but it seems to me like 5g of creatine would affect me more than a normal person (who would weight 1.5-2x more than I do). 5g over 110 pounds, as compared to a typical 19-20 year old who weighs what, 150-200?

Thanks for your time, pity it just never went anywhere.
Tinyman

AFAIC = As Far As I'm Concerned.

No, it would not affect you more, the same still holds true, your body will use what it can and the rest will be converted into creatinine and excreted.

If you wish you could use another method of calculating your maintnance dose based on how much you weigh.

Here's how you do that:

0.3g per kg for the first 5-7 days would mean 0.3*50=15g a day

0.03g per kg for the maintnance period would mean 0.03*50=1,5g a day

For me that would mean 3.4g a day but since it's cheap and i see no harm in overdosing i am taking 5g a day and reload with 20g for five days every six weeks. I have been doing that for several years by now and have had no adverse health effects from it.

[TinyMan]

Thanks Powerswede,
What you're saying gives a different light to what I had been thinking of. Correct me if I'm wrong, the muscle will absorb the possible creatine to a potential max ~5g creatine per kg of muscle, and the kidney undergoes a cycle to chemically change the phosphate cluster on creatine, to make creatinine, an inactive substance that is chemically secreted.

Assume that I take 2-2.5g (1/2 a teaspoon) of creatine PWO, that's about 10g per week (I do a workout 4 times a week). With the muscle absorbing creatine, that's doesn't seem like it would be much stress on the kidneys to process excess creatine.

I had originally assumed 20-25g, which was concerning me a bit about stressing my system from taking too much creatine. And, the ever-popular question: Is 10g/week sufficient to benefit from creatine? My personal thought is that if I were taking 1/2 the normal dosage, I'd feel near the same effect (for 1/2 the body mass), but it's just that - a thought. I have nothing to really compare the situation again, so I could be miles off.

Still continuing to annoy...
Tinyman

[PowerSwede]

Thanks Powerswede,
What you're saying gives a different light to what I had been thinking of. Correct me if I'm wrong, the muscle will absorb the possible creatine to a potential max ~5g creatine per kg of muscle, and the kidney undergoes a cycle to chemically change the phosphate cluster on creatine, to make creatinine, an inactive substance that is chemically secreted.

Assume that I take 2-2.5g (1/2 a teaspoon) of creatine PWO, that's about 10g per week (I do a workout 4 times a week). With the muscle absorbing creatine, that's doesn't seem like it would be much stress on the kidneys to process excess creatine.

I had originally assumed 20-25g, which was concerning me a bit about stressing my system from taking too much creatine. And, the ever-popular question: Is 10g/week sufficient to benefit from creatine? My personal thought is that if I were taking 1/2 the normal dosage, I'd feel near the same effect (for 1/2 the body mass), but it's just that - a thought. I have nothing to really compare the situation again, so I could be miles off.

Still continuing to annoy...
Tinyman

Creatinine is formed in muscle from creatine phosphate by a nonenzymatic dehydration and loss of phosphate creatinine is then excreted by the kidneys.

Creatinine is just a waste product formed by the degradation of creatine phosphate, the concentration of creatinine in the serum is useful for assessing kidney function. In most types of kidney malfunction, the serum creatinine level rises. (which made doctors examining patients with elevated creatinine levels, people who supplemented creatine, worried and that is where the common misconception that elevated creatinine levels is bad for the kidneys comes from).

Let's do some math to find out what you would need to get up to your maximum level of creatine storage (this is in no way exact since it is really way more complicated than this, but let's do it anyway):

Your body normally stores around ~3.5g of creatine/lbs of muscle
Your body can store a maximum amount of ~5g of creatine/lbs of muscle
Your current level would be ~80g
The maximum level would be ~114g

To get up to the level of 114g a day you need 34g of creatine supplementation, a short loading phase of 10g a day for 4 days will get you up to that level quickly or you can take 5g a day for 7 days (this is preferrable IMO) as a loading phase and then cut back to maintnance phase.

Normal excretion of creatine is 1-2g a day, when creatine is supplemented that will be closer to 2 than to 1 so 2g a day should keep your system filled without increasing creatinine urine levels by much.