Milk and Whey Protein

[TMatu]

What are the benefits or drawbacks from taking my GNC whey protein with milk?

[=machine=57/48]

I'm using up my GNC stuff cuz i needed some after i ran out and I'm at college now. I take it with skim and a little water but i am also taking it with Glutamine and Creatine and soon to be NO. Seem to be fine for me.

[Litfury]

I usually take my protein with some type of juice. But on occasions I take it with milk. As far as I can tell, no drawbacks.

[Hulk06]

Most people buy whey because it is instant protein...adding milk to it would slow down the absorbing process, therefore eliminating the "instant" effect.

[BFD Zio]

I'm using up my GNC stuff cuz i needed some after i ran out and I'm at college now. I take it with skim and a little water but i am also taking it with Glutamine and Creatine and soon to be NO. Seem to be fine for me.

Milk slows down how fast the whey will absorb. I believe it is doing the same for your creatine, as well.

[XFactor]

Not exactly. The whey will digest at it's constant rate, the milk will digest slowly as a casien protein. Milk + whey = great shake. You'll absorb the whey quickly while the milk absorbs later.

[DUILEE]

I always hear people saying not to drink milk PWO because of slowed protein digestion but how slow does it really digest? Your body can only utilize so much protein at one time so, in my opinion, as long as you get that protein in right after lifting you should be fine, even if there is casein present. I may be wrong on this, I'm no scientist, but I'm guessing that alot of that protein just circulates around in your blood for awhile before it gets taken into the muscles anyways because muscles don't instantly utilize all the protein consumed. Even if casein slows the digestion rate, your body is still getting a constant flow of protein which is in sufficient amounts to promote growth. Does anybody have some science to counter this opinion? I'm not being sarcastic, I actually want to know. How fast do your body utilize protein compared to how fast it is digested?

[Jay M.]

I've read up on this quite a bit here lately. There is even evidence that protein has a hard time being properly processed without fat being present. This may mean that whey's effects would definitely be upgraded by the presence of fat in something like 2% milk. Just a thought.

[=machine=57/48]

SO you think maybe going from skim to 2% milk may help in the digestion and absorption?? Where did ya read up on this? could ya get me a link?

[85_305]

Thats weird.. i have read that fat will DECREASE absorption of protein :confused:

[Andrew69]

From my (limited) understanding, fat will only slow digestion if present as part of a solid meal, not a shake.

Here is a post by Bobo taken from AM

"The majority of delay when it comes to fats is either

a) When they are in a solid state and it delays the breakdown of bolus (solid like state) into chyme (semi-liquid) state. With a shake, this process is already complete so that delay is almost nonexistant....Think of red meat and the difference in fats vs. oils.

b) The emulsification of saturated or transfatty acids within the small intestine. At this point the absortion of amino's is already taking place.

So in general when your fat amount is about 1-2tblsp within a liquid state already (thanks to your blender) the delay in amino absortion is almost non-existant."

This post was made in the context of slowing absorption by adding natty peanut butter to a shake pre bed.

So taking your whey PWO with milk will not slow the absorption to any significant degree and the anti-catabolic effect of the casein more than outweighs any minor slowing of absorbtion of the whey.

[=machine=57/48]

Thanks that was very helpful guys

[85_305]

Andrew69.. seeing as though you have "limited knowledge", you sure as heck did a good job explaining that :thumbsup: Thanx for your input :)
But.. did you know that unless you have at least a LITTEL fat when you eat salad (in other words salad dressing, etc..) that the nutrients from the salad will not be digested?

[Andrew69]

Andrew69.. seeing as though you have "limited knowledge", you sure as heck did a good job explaining that :thumbsup: Thanx for your input :)
But.. did you know that unless you have at least a LITTEL fat when you eat salad (in other words salad dressing, etc..) that the nutrients from the salad will not be digested?
Thanks :)

I always have my salads with a little extra virgin olive oil, vinegar and a dash of lemon juice ...just cause it tastes great :D

[sowle2themax]

what do you guys think about this?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15570142

[85_305]

Thanks :)

I always have my salads with a little extra virgin olive oil, vinegar and a dash of lemon juice ...just cause it tastes great :D

Hm.. I will have to try that sometime, it *does* sound good :cool:

[bofeity]

From my (limited) understanding, fat will only slow digestion if present as part of a solid meal, not a shake.

Here is a post by Bobo taken from AM

"The majority of delay when it comes to fats is either

a) When they are in a solid state and it delays the breakdown of bolus (solid like state) into chyme (semi-liquid) state. With a shake, this process is already complete so that delay is almost nonexistant....Think of red meat and the difference in fats vs. oils.

b) The emulsification of saturated or transfatty acids within the small intestine. At this point the absortion of amino's is already taking place.

So in general when your fat amount is about 1-2tblsp within a liquid state already (thanks to your blender) the delay in amino absortion is almost non-existant."

This post was made in the context of slowing absorption by adding natty peanut butter to a shake pre bed.

So taking your whey PWO with milk will not slow the absorption to any significant degree and the anti-catabolic effect of the casein more than outweighs any minor slowing of absorbtion of the whey.

Great post... and whey and milk protein (casein) digest at their normal rates, one slower, the other faster. They don't chemically bind. Your digestive system treats them as seperate entities, not as if they are combined and the slower one taking over the faster one.

[85_305]

^Ok, that is what I was thinking :D
Question for you two guys then; why do people say to take your night-time shake w/ peanut butter to slow the rate of uptake of whey?

[BiggJohn]

From my (limited) understanding, fat will only slow digestion if present as part of a solid meal, not a shake.

Here is a post by Bobo taken from AM

"The majority of delay when it comes to fats is either

a) When they are in a solid state and it delays the breakdown of bolus (solid like state) into chyme (semi-liquid) state. With a shake, this process is already complete so that delay is almost nonexistant....Think of red meat and the difference in fats vs. oils.

b) The emulsification of saturated or transfatty acids within the small intestine. At this point the absortion of amino's is already taking place.

So in general when your fat amount is about 1-2tblsp within a liquid state already (thanks to your blender) the delay in amino absortion is almost non-existant."

This post was made in the context of slowing absorption by adding natty peanut butter to a shake pre bed.

So taking your whey PWO with milk will not slow the absorption to any significant degree and the anti-catabolic effect of the casein more than outweighs any minor slowing of absorbtion of the whey.

Reps for you, I've been looking for this information. I believe some other properties of milk (glycemic load and effects on insulin) also make it a good choice.

Does this mean WPC is just as good as WPI as long as your diet can absorb the extra fat?

[BiggJohn]

_
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Andrew69 again._

[bofeity]

^Ok, that is what I was thinking :D
Question for you two guys then; why do people say to take your night-time shake w/ peanut butter to slow the rate of uptake of whey?

I havn't been able to find legitimate research for it but I believe it has something to do with the rate of mobility in the intestine when fat is present. And such that if fat is in a meal, the mobility of a bolus of food will be decreased and as a result absorption slowed.

[Andrew69]

Does this mean WPC is just as good as WPI as long as your diet can absorb the extra fat?
Yes.Provided you account for the extra fat and carbs.

[Andrew69]

^Ok, that is what I was thinking :D
Question for you two guys then; why do people say to take your night-time shake w/ peanut butter to slow the rate of uptake of whey?
I think the peanut butter slowing digestion thing is one of those myths that is simply perpetuated by almost everyone here...myself included up until recently.

[Andrew69]

This is the study linked by sowle2themax.

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu

PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 15570142 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Im not really sure what to make of this study and what it means is the real world for most people simply due to the time lapse between exercise and the ingestion of the protein (1 hour in the study).
The only thing that I would draw from it is that due to the fact the whey and casein elicite different increases in the net balance of different types of aminos, it may well be advantageous to take both whey and casein in your PWO shake so you have a "broad spectrum" response in amino acid uptake, rathen than just one or the other.

[sowle2themax]

yeah i also didn't quite understand why they waited an hour after

[85_305]

bofeity and Andrew69, your two theories conflict, lol. Both are very convincing; can ANYONE find some kind of study's/facts to back any of that up? Now I am REALLY curious..

[BiggJohn]

This is the study linked by sowle2themax.

Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.

Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.

Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu

PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 15570142 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Im not really sure what to make of this study and what it means is the real world for most people simply due to the time lapse between exercise and the ingestion of the protein (1 hour in the study).
The only thing that I would draw from it is that due to the fact the whey and casein elicite different increases in the net balance of different types of aminos, it may well be advantageous to take both whey and casein in your PWO shake so you have a "broad spectrum" response in amino acid uptake, rathen than just one or the other.

Excellent find.

[footballplaya37]

I also take my PWO Whey with milk, but i also put 5 grams of Creatine in it.

Is it ok to mix creatine with milk?

Thanks

[He-Man]

I think milk just makes the shakes taste better overall and we all know that some of these supplements can taste down right nasty. I tried using water for a bit but switched back to milk.

And milk is also a great healthy fat source and the added protein is a bonus too.

[Andrew69]

bofeity and Andrew69, your two theories conflict, lol. Both are very convincing; can ANYONE find some kind of study's/facts to back any of that up? Now I am REALLY curious..
Just go and re-read my post above (post no 11 of this thread).
When you take a shake, as it is already a liquid it is therefore already "chyme like". You have in effect, jumped one step (bolus). It is at the bolus stage that fat retards digestion. Once you have reached the "chyme like" state, the small amount of fats present in the shake will not slow the digestion to any significant degree.
If you still dont believe me :p then try picking up any basic nutrition text :D

[sowle2themax]

this is what layne posted in another thread

orginally posted by layne norton:
while a meal unit is in the stomach, the stomach contracts and emulsifies the meal into chyme. The chyme is a mixture of all parts of the meal. the casein in the chyme will clot at the pyloric sphincter, delaying gastric emptying into the duodenum of the small intestine, and thus delaying the emptying of whey into the small intestine.

full thread
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=434386

[85_305]

Just go and re-read my post above (post no 11 of this thread).
When you take a shake, as it is already a liquid it is therefore already "chyme like". You have in effect, jumped one step (bolus). It is at the bolus stage that fat retards digestion. Once you have reached the "chyme like" state, the small amount of fats present in the shake will not slow the digestion to any significant degree.
If you still dont believe me :p then try picking up any basic nutrition text :D

So your right and he is not?

[Andrew69]

So your right and he is not?
I dont think he actually disagreed with me did he?
Anyway, as far as peanut butter slowing absorbtion, yes, I am right.
Although sowle2themax has brought up another point which may effect the absorbtion.
Time for some research...

[85_305]

Oh, my bad.. I must have mis-read him then, as it seems you guys contradicted each other. But it *is* a myth that p/b will slow down digestion?

[Andrew69]

But it *is* a myth that p/b will slow down digestion?
In a shake, yes. It is a myth.

[pu12en12g]

This will probably be a good read for you guys, especially as you get towards the end:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=386412

and:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=337536

[PowerSwede]

A very simple way to see the difference between different forms of foods and their absorption rate is to look at the GI value.

You see, a food has a high GI value because it reaches the bloodstream quickly and elicits an insulin response to clear it. The entire equation depends on the GI value, how long from ingestion until it is cleared from the bloodstream.

So, the question becomes, will fat or casein lower the GI value of a whey shake?

The answer is yes, it will.

[bofeity]

Damn, and all of this time I've been having my shake with milk. Reps.

[force_]

Some good debating/info going on in this thread!!!

Bump ^

F.

[Andrew69]

So, the question becomes, will fat or casein lower the GI value of a whey shake?

The answer is yes, it will.
Sure, put a spoonful of peanut butter is not going lower the GI of your shake by 20 or 30 points is it.
If you were to have a shake compromising 50% peanut butter.....:D

I will always take my PWO shake with milk. The pros far and away outweigh the cons in my book.

[85_305]

Indeed.. now this thread is instilling quite the confusion in poor 85_305 :(

[PowerSwede]

Sure, put a spoonful of peanut butter is not going lower the GI of your shake by 20 or 30 points is it.
If you were to have a shake compromising 50% peanut butter.....:D

I will always take my PWO shake with milk. The pros far and away outweigh the cons in my book.

Hydrolyzed whey has a very high GI value, enough to cause a sharp insulin spike, a spoonful of peanut butter will blunt that spike and lower the GI value with at least 30 points. (why peanut butte though, be hardcore and throw some flax oil in there)

Don't forget that you are having a shake with 50 (if you use 50 grams in your shakes) of protein, now that's 200 calories of protein, how much peanut butter do you need to get 50%?

Not that i think it will matter much though, drink your shake any way you want, you could do much, much worse than milk, you could be using juice. ;)

[BringnIt]

I don't know where milk ranks on the GI scale but I think it's high on the insulin scale. But, yes, milk will slow down the whey shake but as long as your pre-workout nutrition is up to par it probably won't matter much.

[bofeity]

I don't know where milk ranks on the GI scale but I think it's high on the insulin scale. But, yes, milk will slow down the whey shake but as long as your pre-workout nutrition is up to par it probably won't matter much.

I remember reading on one of the articles posted here that milk is a low GI food. What do you mean "it's high on the insulin scale?"

[Rob8701]

I don't know where milk ranks on the GI scale but I think it's high on the insulin scale. But, yes, milk will slow down the whey shake but as long as your pre-workout nutrition is up to par it probably won't matter much.


Milk(particularly skim milk) should not have much influence over the rate of absoption of the whey. It is the actual globular form of the casein protein that slows it down during digestion.

[bofeity]

Milk(particularly skim milk) should not have much influence over the rate of absoption of the whey. It is the actual globular form of the casein protein that slows it down during digestion.

That's what I thought, but many people seem to say/think otherwise...

[bofeity]

Well here you have it about milk with the new article on the main page.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/paul1.htm

He states that milk is GREAT not just GOOD post workout. Also that it is a high II but a very low GI food.

[Andrew69]

He states that milk is GREAT not just GOOD post workout. Also that it is a high II but a very low GI food.
I keep telling everyone milk is perfect PWO, but when you keep getting screamed down by 16Y/O's that you MUST have water/whey PWO as the milk slows the digestion of the whey, it gets tired real quick :(
I just say it once these days. If they believe me, great. If they dont then its their loss.

[bofeity]

I keep telling everyone milk is perfect PWO, but when you keep getting screamed down by 16Y/O's that you MUST have water/whey PWO as the milk slows the digestion of the whey, it gets tired real quick :(
I just say it once these days. If they believe me, great. If they dont then its their loss.

Yeah I'm sticking to milk I've made great gains from it.

[300C]

Powerswede if I recall correclty milk creates somewhat of an insulin spike on it's own does it not?

[4amWorkouts]

^Ok, that is what I was thinking :D
Question for you two guys then; why do people say to take your night-time shake w/ peanut butter to slow the rate of uptake of whey?

This is usually proposed when you are not going to be taking in any protein for several hours, as when you are sleeping. The theory is that the protein will stay in your system longer than the usual 2 hours and that the peanut butter will slow down the rate of absorption. This is also the theory behind taking a soy and whey protein blend at night.

[85_305]

^But that theory is false. All taking peanut butter at night is going to do is the *peanut butter* will have a slow rate of digestion, due to the fats. But the actual *whey supplemented* protein will digest at normal rate.

[Malbolgia]

I'm pretty sure that whole thing is pretty similar to what are referred to as "slow burning carbs" and "fast burning carbs". If you were to drink a shake with milk in it, it would take longer to digest than a shake made with water, in part because of the lack, or presense, of the slower burning (or digested) carbs.
In the mornings when I have my first shake, it is always mixed with OJ. Within an hour I feel hungry again and that's when I usually have my oatmeal with a scoop or two of protein powder. If I have a shake at night before bed, I may use milk, and also flax seed oil to make the digestion of the shake more drawn out. Since I am sleeping for 7-10 hours, without food, I want to s-l-o-w it down.

[85_305]

I had a talk with my biology teacher the other day. He says that ONLY the foood CONTAINING the fat will slow down. Since milk is mostly caseine, it will take milk longer to digest. Now.. when you mix the whey (or what have you) the whey will digest *at it's own rate*, not being effected by what else is being downed with it, wether it be peanut butter, bread, milk/water, etc.

[Malbolgia]

I had a talk with my biology teacher the other day. He says that ONLY the foood CONTAINING the fat will slow down. Since milk is mostly caseine, it will take milk longer to digest. Now.. when you mix the whey (or what have you) the whey will digest *at it's own rate*, not being effected by what else is being downed with it, wether it be peanut butter, bread, milk/water, etc.

Interesting. Everything I've ever read has pointed to mixing your protein with something with a higher glycemic index post workout because your muscles will use it much faster, and then an hour later consuming a slower burning mixture to provide them with the nutrients over a longer period of time.

[4amWorkouts]

Aren't digestion rates based upon taking in ONLY that item on an empty stomach? Are you claiming that if you eat a full meal (stomach is completly full of food) and then drink a whey shake that the shake will jump to the head of the digestive line and digest at the "empty contents" rate?

[Malbolgia]

Hey, in this month's Flex magazine, page 143, it talks about slower burning and faster burning carbs. Very similar to the info being questioned in this post. It's an article on how to eat when trying to "get ripped".