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Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 10:16 AM
Do you guys think that the physiques would improve if substances like HGH and IGF-1 were absolutely banned from the sport. It seems, from reading comments here, that most people are dissatisfied with the look of the physiques "gracing" the IFBB stages, and most people here would love to see the bodies that were winning shows in the previous eras.

The past BBers who were just using run-of-the-mill steroids and testosterone were symmetrical, proportionate, with amazing detail, and tight midsections. These substances the modern BBers are using are destroying the lines of their physiques, and probably ultimately their health and well-being as well, not to mention the financial toll. The muscles are bigger no doubt, but the look is unappealing, even to other BBers. Forget about the average guy in the street.

Would it be possible to just rid specific drugs from the sport? Is it feasible at all, or just a pipe-dream on my part? What do you guys think? Thanks.

TheGreekHulk84
08-13-2007, 10:59 AM
Do you guys think that the physiques would improve if substances like HGH and IGF-1 were absolutely banned from the sport. It seems, from reading comments here, that most people are dissatisfied with the look of the physiques "gracing" the IFBB stages, and most people here would love to see the bodies that were winning shows in the previous eras.

The past BBers who were just using run-of-the-mill steroids and testosterone were symmetrical, proportionate, with amazing detail, and tight midsections. These substances the modern BBers are using are destroying the lines of their physiques, and probably ultimately their health and well-being as well, not to mention the financial toll. The muscles are bigger no doubt, but the look is unappealing, even to other BBers. Forget about the average guy in the street.

Would it be possible to just rid specific drugs from the sport? Is it feasible at all, or just a pipe-dream on my part? What do you guys think? Thanks.

They are banned, but theres no way they could 'ban' these drugs because the image that they pros have is they should get absolutely enormous! Plus the people who make the drug sales would hate if bodybuilders werent buying any of that expensive stuff, which i believe that the sponsors pay for their athletes to get and win them shows so people buy their products, but i guess thats going to be the downfall of bodybuilding. I mean have you seen how big jay cutler and ronnie colemans head have gotten over the years!

Anyway enough conspiracy theories, i just believe that they dont use steroids and that their head size is just a birth defect............lol

Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 11:17 AM
They are banned, but theres no way they could 'ban' these drugs because the image that they pros have is they should get absolutely enormous! Plus the people who make the drug sales would hate if bodybuilders werent buying any of that expensive stuff, which i believe that the sponsors pay for their athletes to get and win them shows so people buy their products, but i guess thats going to be the downfall of bodybuilding. I mean have you seen how big jay cutler and ronnie colemans head have gotten over the years!

Anyway enough conspiracy theories, i just believe that they dont use steroids and that their head size is just a birth defect............lol

See, I'm in way over my head here. I didn't know those substances were banned (for what that's worth). Plus I'm not privy to what goes on behind closed doors with sponsors and so forth.

Well, the head is a body part isn't it? ;) I got an idea, start a new thread about who has the most developed head in BBing. ;) I think it still comes down to Cutler and Coleman. :)

captainhorseboy
08-13-2007, 11:18 AM
itd be almost impossible to effectively remove them from the sport via a ban, rather, if judges would penalize for the obvious effects of them rather than rewarding the results, then it would phase itself out

Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 11:21 AM
itd be almost impossible to effectively remove them from the sport via a ban, rather, if judges would penalize for the obvious effects of them rather than rewarding the results, then it would phase itself out

Good point!

I know this has been discussed a lot, but whatever it takes it seems it should be done.

sikboy
08-13-2007, 11:26 AM
Lets ban all performance enhancing drugs in the IFBB since day 1.

No Arnold, Mentzer, Lou, Platz, Sergio, Serge, Viator, Franco, Padilla, Zane, Dickinson, Fox, Haney, Labrada, Dorain, Dillet, Ronnie, Flex, Levrone and all the other amazing atletes that use.

Now how **** would bb be if we did that?

TheGreekHulk84
08-13-2007, 11:39 AM
Lets ban all performance enhancing drugs in the IFBB since day 1.

No Arnold, Mentzer, Lou, Platz, Sergio, Serge, Viator, Franco, Padilla, Zane, Dickinson, Fox, Haney, Labrada, Dorain, Dillet, Ronnie, Flex, Levrone and all the other amazing atletes that use.

Now how **** would bb be if we did that?

Pretty damn crap if you asked me, then they would look as big as 16 year old school kids.

sikboy
08-13-2007, 11:48 AM
Pretty damn crap if you asked me, then they would look as big as 16 year old school kids.
There would still be a few big guys, but nothing like the biggest of the eras.

Loctus
08-13-2007, 11:48 AM
First of all, isn't HGH and IGF-1 some of the HARDEST substances to trace?

And common, everyone who use 'em doesn't have a huge gut, you can get a incredibly aesthetic body, you just need to keep it under controll.

sikboy
08-13-2007, 11:50 AM
First of all, isn't HGH and IGF-1 some of the HARDEST substances to trace?

And common, everyone who use 'em doesn't have a huge gut, you can get a incredibly aesthetic body, you just need to keep it under controll.
Its impossible to detect as of now as far as i am aware.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/athletic-drug-test8.htm

Tests Under Development
Currently, there are no reliable tests for hGH, IGF-1 and EPO. However, a test for EPO is being developed. The EPO test looks at the size of red blood cells. It has been noticed that synthetic EPO produces red blood cells that are smaller and bind more iron then natural EPO. So, the size and iron content of red blood cells from a blood sample are analyzed to determine whether an athlete has used EPO.

Although there is little statistical evidence on how widespread doping is, athletes and coaches stress that most competitors do not take drugs. Nonetheless, drug testing is becoming an increasingly integral part of sports competitions. As new performance-enhancing drugs are developed, new tests are developed to detect these drugs, and the struggle to keep sports clean continues indefinitely.

For more information on performance-enhancing drugs, drug testing, and related topics, check out the links on the next page.

Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 12:08 PM
Lets ban all performance enhancing drugs in the IFBB since day 1.

No Arnold, Mentzer, Lou, Platz, Sergio, Serge, Viator, Franco, Padilla, Zane, Dickinson, Fox, Haney, Labrada, Dorain, Dillet, Ronnie, Flex, Levrone and all the other amazing atletes that use.

Now how **** would bb be if we did that?

Lets not get carried away here sikboy :) The whole point of my thread is so we can get back the great physiques of yesteryear.

DJINN
08-13-2007, 12:27 PM
itd be almost impossible to effectively remove them from the sport via a ban, rather, if judges would penalize for the obvious effects of them rather than rewarding the results, then it would phase itself out

Great post...banning is pointless in an arena where it cannot be or is not enforced via testing and subsequent consequences of violation. The physiques being developed via chemical enhancement are no doubt amazing and we all sit back and marvel at how huge and ripped guys are these days. However, we are also disgusted by the abdominal distention we see and to go a step outside of chemical enhancement, the use of synthol to "manufacture" instant "muscles" (...just add oil and watch the new "growth" appear!).

As long as these physiques are rewarded with top placements, they will continue to exist and guys will continue trying to achieve the "golden" look. Every time a guy with a distended gut wins or places in the top 5, it serves to reinforce this look and hints at acceptance. Should the judges move to actually reward aethestically pleasing, symmetrical, well-developed and conditioned, GH gut-free physiques, and this occurred consistently at all shows, I guarantee the tide would change. Not only would guys want to place well and therefore adhere to the "new" criteria, their financial outlook is impacted by placings.

To go a step further, judging alone does not fix this problem. Magazines, supplement companies and other sources of individual promotion and endorsement, would have to take a similar stance. As long as a certain "look" is rewarded or promoted in any way, and top placings and financial rewards are attached, guys will continue to conform to that standard. As we all know, there are few guys that take their own path and refuse to play the game...these guys have, for the most part, consistently been overlooked in contests.

Its a double-edge sword...kind of like a bad car accident. We turn our heads and cover our eyes in disgust, but at the same time peak through our fingers and marvel in awe.

empresscat
08-13-2007, 12:35 PM
itd be almost impossible to effectively remove them from the sport via a ban, rather, if judges would penalize for the obvious effects of them rather than rewarding the results, then it would phase itself out

Exactly - it's down to judging. If they judges start penalizing for distended guts and freakish heads - then people will stop using the substances that make them look that way... as long as they guys who do look that way are winning, though, you will continue to see the situation worsen.

Guardian
08-13-2007, 12:51 PM
Both hgh and igf-1 can be positive and improve physiques. The problem is they should be used in moderation, excessive use will cause the intestines and spleen (and perhaps others) to grow due to the unproportionatly large amount of igf receptors in the areas. Imo igf-1 should be used as a low dose spot injection of perhaps 10-20 mcg only a couple days a week to trigger hyperplasia and satelite cell recruitment. But id venture to say some of these guys are taking 120mcg or more daily and have a constant serum elevation. Hgh should be used imo in low doses to aid in connective tissue repair but alot of these guys are using it heavy all year round.

woodsballa
08-13-2007, 12:54 PM
Lets ban all performance enhancing drugs in the IFBB since day 1.

No Arnold, Mentzer, Lou, Platz, Sergio, Serge, Viator, Franco, Padilla, Zane, Dickinson, Fox, Haney, Labrada, Dorain, Dillet, Ronnie, Flex, Levrone and all the other amazing atletes that use.

Now how **** would bb be if we did that?

x2

Samantha905
08-13-2007, 01:18 PM
Lets ban all performance enhancing drugs in the IFBB since day 1.

No Arnold, Mentzer, Lou, Platz, Sergio, Serge, Viator, Franco, Padilla, Zane, Dickinson, Fox, Haney, Labrada, Dorain, Dillet, Ronnie, Flex, Levrone and all the other amazing atletes that use.

Now how **** would bb be if we did that?

x3 if it wasnt for those guys and their drugs, would there even be a bodybuilding.com?

woodsballa
08-13-2007, 01:22 PM
x3 if it wasnt for those guys and their drugs, would there even be a bodybuilding.com?

heeeelll no there wouldn't. half of you guys on here probably wouldn't have even heard of bodybuilding.

Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 01:33 PM
There would still be a few big guys, but nothing like the biggest of the eras.

Wasn't the 1990 Olympia drug tested? The year Labrada almost won? I'm sure they were still using a certain amount, but the physiques were definitely different-looking that year.

What was odd about that show is that Labrada was leading by two points going into the final posing round (which was always Labrada's strength), and then he mysteriously loses to Haney. It seems there's a conspiracy against the smaller guys winning. Labrada had such fantastic genetics that having the show drug-tested (if it was legitimate) played right into his hands, yet it was snatched away. Anyway, I'm getting off topic.

Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 01:35 PM
Great post...banning is pointless in an arena where it cannot be or is not enforced via testing and subsequent consequences of violation. The physiques being developed via chemical enhancement are no doubt amazing and we all sit back and marvel at how huge and ripped guys are these days. However, we are also disgusted by the abdominal distention we see and to go a step outside of chemical enhancement, the use of synthol to "manufacture" instant "muscles" (...just add oil and watch the new "growth" appear!).

As long as these physiques are rewarded with top placements, they will continue to exist and guys will continue trying to achieve the "golden" look. Every time a guy with a distended gut wins or places in the top 5, it serves to reinforce this look and hints at acceptance. Should the judges move to actually reward aethestically pleasing, symmetrical, well-developed and conditioned, GH gut-free physiques, and this occurred consistently at all shows, I guarantee the tide would change. Not only would guys want to place well and therefore adhere to the "new" criteria, their financial outlook is impacted by placings.

To go a step further, judging alone does not fix this problem. Magazines, supplement companies and other sources of individual promotion and endorsement, would have to take a similar stance. As long as a certain "look" is rewarded or promoted in any way, and top placings and financial rewards are attached, guys will continue to conform to that standard. As we all know, there are few guys that take their own path and refuse to play the game...these guys have, for the most part, consistently been overlooked in contests.

Its a double-edge sword...kind of like a bad car accident. We turn our heads and cover our eyes in disgust, but at the same time peak through our fingers and marvel in awe.

Well said DJINN!!! The voice of reason! I tip my hat to you.

dazzlepecs
08-13-2007, 02:07 PM
the more drugs the better IMO, if they turn a blind eye to all the abuse may as well go for broke and see what crazy **** we can get




If you want symmetry and aesthetic bodies look at natural bb-ing

Uriel_da_man
08-13-2007, 02:13 PM
Not all the guys have guts.

Banning peptides now would be dragging the whole industry back some twenty years. I think the trick, as we are already beginning to see in the new generation of pros, is to use them smart so as to grow the muscles steadily with minimal distention.

I think it's when they try to come 5lbs heavier every show they do (a la Coleman a few years back) that the waists start getting out of control.

Anabolistic
08-13-2007, 02:18 PM
THe IFBB says it does drug testing .... lol. Thas one big joke. It is not illegal to use STEROIDS in the IFBB. It is encouraged actually. Everybody is on the sauce it is accepted.

DeezNuutz
08-13-2007, 02:21 PM
Well, Banning it. I think everyone summed it up in that regard. As far as what the effects are as far as the distended belly look and or asethetics and lines I think it is fair to say the jury is still out on that one. I haven't seen anything subastantial as to proving one way or the other that GH, IGF-1 and the rest of the "peptides" ruining lines. I think they may have a minor role but that would still be a stretch and a very slight opinion @ best. I've read threads that implied Dexter Jackson dosen't use any of these peptides because of his waist and stomach. I don't think we are being realistic in the whole thought as to WHY the distension and what not are happening. It is still sooooooo many theories as to what causes this and no one presenting anything @ this time as solid. Hell, do you guys not think that certain bbers w/ smaller waist aren't using slin and other peptides?? I'm only presenting this as to say that we don't have "facts" as to what the SUM of this distension and the like is coming from. The answer, and I believe you guys broke it down was the judging, sponsorships, and Magazines is what stops these clowns from getting on stage looking crazy. No one I know that have used High doses of GH, slin, anabolics have distended bellies. But that dosen't mean that it dosen't do that. I'm only saying that it has to be MORE to it. Maybe even a predisposition. All in All, i'm sure an answer will present itself in a few more years as bodbuilders start to get more ailments and possibly start dying (no I don't wish that) from some of this "new" polypharmacology. Time will tell.

GM54
08-13-2007, 02:36 PM
im not sure how easy it is to test for HGH and igf-1 could be expensive enough that its not worth it

Loctus
08-13-2007, 02:42 PM
I don't see any real reason to ban HGH and IGF-1, it's not the substances itself we dislike, it's the bloating and huge guts. The judges simply need to start deducting points for huge guts.

Anabolism1000
08-13-2007, 02:49 PM
the more drugs the better IMO, if they turn a blind eye to all the abuse may as well go for broke and see what crazy **** we can get




If you want symmetry and aesthetic bodies look at natural bb-ing

I have nothing against drugs. If I did I'd be a total hypocrite, but I do have a problem when I see physiques not evolving in a direction that can be called an improvement over what came before. Sure, the physiques are bigger, but the way they have become bigger is not a positive evolution for BBing. If it was bigger versions of physiques like Arnold's, Lee Haney's, Dorian's, and so forth, that would be different, but the loss of muscle detail and the loss of the individuality and uniqueness of the physiques is troubling. It's good though, in a paradoxical way, that this experimentation has occurred because it should lay a groundwork for where they shouldn't go in the future.

Yet my gut tells me, considering the BBing mentality, that the future is going to bring even more different types of drugs, more mass, more disformity, and Frankenstein-like facial features.

And what about the young guy who might want a career in BBing? What if your son wanted to be a pro BBer. How would you feel? We are talking about human beings who are going to have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

Uriel_da_man
08-13-2007, 03:34 PM
im not sure how easy it is to test for HGH and igf-1 could be expensive enough that its not worth it
They can test plasma IGF-1, which will be way above normal if supplementing with GH and/or IGF-1 itself.

Thing is blood testing is more expensive and a whole lot more paperwork than urine testing, so most places don't do it, and even if the plasma IGF-1 levels are above normal that doesn't give you 100% certainty of doping. It's like testosterone tests, you can never tell if the athlete in question is using exogenous one or if it is just his own that is naturally very high (as there are lots of juiced guys that compete in natural organizations I'm sure there have also been cases of naturals who were left out just because they have really good genetics).

kethnaab
08-13-2007, 09:21 PM
the only thing that needs to be banned is pregnancy.

Judges need to actually give a **** about waistlines again.

Guardian
08-13-2007, 09:27 PM
They can test plasma IGF-1, which will be way above normal if supplementing with GH and/or IGF-1 itself.

Thing is blood testing is more expensive and a whole lot more paperwork than urine testing, so most places don't do it, and even if the plasma IGF-1 levels are above normal that doesn't give you 100% certainty of doping. It's like testosterone tests, you can never tell if the athlete in question is using exogenous one or if it is just his own that is naturally very high (as there are lots of juiced guys that compete in natural organizations I'm sure there have also been cases of naturals who were left out just because they have really good genetics).

Nah man, even the most genetically test gifted guys would have anywhere near what juiced users have.

Uriel_da_man
08-14-2007, 02:57 AM
Nah man, even the most genetically test gifted guys would have anywhere near what juiced users have.
Yeah but they may have enough to be above the "accepted values", which are like 300-1000ng/dl. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like, say, Dillet had a "natural" value of 1200 or so, and as such could possibly fail drug tests without using drugs.

ARPace
08-14-2007, 10:47 AM
I say let the pros use what they want. To say these drugs have rouined todays pros is ridiculous, some of the most aesthetic beasts in the history of bodybuilding exist today, i.e. Dexter Jackson :D

Anabolism1000
08-14-2007, 12:43 PM
I say let the pros use what they want. To say these drugs have rouined todays pros is ridiculous, some of the most aesthetic beasts in the history of bodybuilding exist today, i.e. Dexter Jackson :D

Does anyone here know what Dexter's actually using? Maybe he isn't using what everyone else is using, which would prove the point.

Here we go again, but isn't Dex a little (a lot) light in the calves?

Anabolism1000
08-14-2007, 12:46 PM
Just to add, I could smoke Dexter in the calve department, and I'm just Mr. Podunk.

Uriel_da_man
08-14-2007, 01:29 PM
Dex is probably using peptides aswel. People see the way he looks next to guys like Coleman and Ruhl and assume he's small, but in comparison to a normal guy he's beyond huge, it just happens that in the same circumstances Coleman and Ruhl don't even look human :D

Anabolism1000
08-14-2007, 01:59 PM
Dex is probably using peptides aswel. People see the way he looks next to guys like Coleman and Ruhl and assume he's small, but in comparison to a normal guy he's beyond huge, it just happens that in the same circumstances Coleman and Ruhl don't even look human :D

But you can get Dexter huge (which as you said is small next to Coleman and Ruhl) just using regular steroids. It seems to me that if he was using peptides, he would be Coleman huge. All speculation on my part though.

10TonBrick
08-14-2007, 02:35 PM
i think insulin is to blame for the guts. im suprised no one has pointed this out yet

Uriel_da_man
08-14-2007, 03:10 PM
But you can get Dexter huge (which as you said is small next to Coleman and Ruhl) just using regular steroids. It seems to me that if he was using peptides, he would be Coleman huge. All speculation on my part though.
I guess it could be possible, but extremely hard. Using a medium-high dosage of a couple AAS and some IGF-1 is probably more effective and a lot healthier than using an insane amount of AAS alone.


i think insulin is to blame for the guts. im suprised no one has pointed this out yet
When I say "peptides" insulin is included.

Hardkkore
08-15-2007, 10:42 PM
Lets not get carried away here sikboy :) The whole point of my thread is so we can get back the great physiques of yesteryear.

Hmm... what's wrong with HGH and IGF-1? Did the IFBB say anything recently about them being bad, and therefore, should be banned?

Also, I thought the direction to progress was the way forward; so why go back to yesterday's physique?


Live well!

Anabolism1000
08-16-2007, 01:53 AM
Hmm... what's wrong with HGH and IGF-1? Did the IFBB say anything recently about them being bad, and therefore, should be banned?

Also, I thought the direction to progress was the way forward; so why go back to yesterday's physique?


Live well!

Hey Hardkkore, I think it's just a matter of opinion. Bigger is generally better, but I think there's a limit before distortion and distension sets in. The lack of detail in the muscle groups, plus the physiques pretty much all looking the same except for overall size differences seems to be the outcome of using peptides. JMO.

myPecsRbigger
08-16-2007, 07:06 AM
impossible to ban igf-1 and hgh since they leave the body too quickly and other steroids and insulin increase the levels of those hormones in the body via indirect means

its the judging that needs to change, not what drugs people take

wildphucker
08-16-2007, 07:28 AM
Some of the most aesthetic, appeasing natural guys would run courses of slin and HGH. It isn't the drugs themselves, its the amount you cycle. What the judges need to do is heavily penalise midsections that look like they've swallowed a koopa troopa. The less of a V, the less you score. Plus as aforementioned, testing for the polypeptide hormones is close to impossible.

Anabolism1000
08-16-2007, 07:58 AM
No argument with the judging as a solution. If BBers are penalized by the judges, they'll have to either find different ways of using the drugs, or stop using them.

chubs001
08-16-2007, 08:52 AM
i think insulin is to blame for the guts. im suprised no one has pointed this out yet

Insulin does not make your organs grow....

anyways this is a pointless thread not offence.

Anabolism1000
08-16-2007, 11:55 AM
Insulin does not make your organs grow....

anyways this is a pointless thread not offence.

The point of the thread is that the top level physiques have a lot to be desired. I don't know what the solution is exactly, but I learned that a lot of the blame seems to fall into the laps of the judges. The BBers get away with what the judges let them get away with. I learned that it's practically impossible to ban these offending substances, which I didn't know.

Why would you even open and read a "pointless thread"? Let alone respond.