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Charger
05-26-2002, 07:40 AM
I am NOT happy! I have been cutting for the last few weeks and making good progress. I checked my bf and weight today and I lost lean mass and gained fat after taking a week off.
My knee's were aching so I quit my cardio, took the week off lifting to heal and thought maybe even gain mass, WRONG!!!!

Here are my stats since 4-21 I started at 212 pounds but didn't keep track until 4-21
4-21 w-205 bf 16.1 lean mass 172.1
4-28 w-202 bf 15.5 lean mass 170.5
5-5 w-200 bf 14.3 lean mass 171.4
5-12 w 197 bf 13.1 lean mass 171.1
5-19 w 194 bf 11.6 lean mass 171.6
5-26 w 192 bf 12.2 lean mass 169.2

The weeks of 5-12 through 5-19 were my heaviest to date as for cardio, 4 days each week with 3 days of lifting. Makes no sense to me. When I over train I could see losing mass but not after a break.

The only other factor that may also have played a part in this is the fact I am suffering from a sinus infection. I have just seen a Doctor about it. I am taking a antibiotic to get over this. I know my weight was coming off a little too fast but my lean mass has stayed almost constant until I take a week off, any ideas????????????? Help!

kendo
05-26-2002, 03:18 PM
I think the lean mass you were holding on to was nearly too good to be true and some loss is expected. If you weren't training then there is no muscle stimulation or response and they react by sacrificing lean mass. Bodyfat increased due do decreased cariovascular activity. If you feel better after your rest training will counterbalance the catabolic effect and the re-stimulated muscle will respond. The renewed cardio will use up fat stores and you'll be back on the right track guaranteed by your weigh/in measurements next week you'll be a happy chappy again. I have been having similar probs lately cutting and just pulled out of a show as I was overdoing it too early in my diet, I had bad leg pain with the cardio and started to alternate cross trainer speed/walk run and the pain has gone.


Good Luck Kendo

ojs
05-27-2002, 03:02 PM
Charger,
I stuffed this into my trusty "Cutting Calcutalor" spreadsheet (there goes that damned science again). Anyway, the results:

Date___Total Wt__lbs Fat___Fat lbs Lost____%BF
04/21___205lbs____33.0lbs____n/a_________16.1%
04/28___202lbs____31.0lbs____2.0lbs_______15.5%
05/05___200lbs____28.6lbs____2.4lbs_______14.3%
05/12___197lbs____25.8lbs____2.8lbs_______13.1%
05/19___194lbs____22.5lbs____3.3lbs_______11.6%
05/26___192lbs____23.4lbs___-0.9lbs_______12.2%

I don't see the same thing you see. Remember that the rule of thumb for fat loss (1 to 2 lbs per week max) has been derived from numerous people doing exactly what you just did.

Some time after the 05/05 date you started doing either way too much burning of calories and not enough consuming or not getting enough rest for the added workload and lowered calories. This is your classic pre-contest Cortisol loop that most bodybuilders refer to this as "a sticking point in their cutting phase."

If continued, this accumilated taxing of your adrenals produces the degraded systemic health (**Classic first signs are sinus problems and interuppted sleep) This sequence can accelerate a Cortisol loop.

By 05/19 you were way into a Cortisol loop. Some of the first effects are blocking of nutrients going into muscle cells causing catabolism, dehydration of muscle cells causing inter-cellular hydration and rehydration of adipose tissue. You probably haven't gained any fat really. Your fat cells are bloated. Your muscle cells are dehydrated. And you've just started accellerating your muscle loss.

:) ***SLOW DOWN!!!!*** ;)

Charger
05-27-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by ojs
Charger,
I
By 05/19 you were way into a Cortisol loop. Some of the first effects are blocking of nutrients going into cells causing catabolism, dehydration of muscle cells causing inter-cellular hydration and rehydration of adipose tissue. You probably haven't gained any fat really. Your fat cells are bloated. And you've just startd accellerating your muscle lose.

:) ***SLOW DOWN!!!!*** ;)

Well, hopefully my week off will pay dividends this week then. Thanks for taking the time to make such an scientific reply:D
I am planning on slowing down, no choice. My son started his Little League. Everything was goiong so well for a time though, oh well. I'll post Sundays weigh in, Bf results and see how I am doing. I really wanted to be at 10% by July 1

ojs
05-28-2002, 12:05 AM
Charger,

Originally posted by Charger


Well, hopefully my week off will pay dividends this week then. Thanks for taking the time to make such an scientific reply:D
I am planning on slowing down, no choice. My son started his Little League. Everything was goiong so well for a time though, oh well. I'll post Sundays weigh in, Bf results and see how I am doing. I really wanted to be at 10% by July 1
Taking the week off was probably the best thing you could have done. You may want to raise your calories just a bit just to make sure your muscle cells start taking stuff in. If you want to get lean fast stay below 2-1/2 lbs per week. Or you'll see the same thing happen again.

Keep your body out of unnecessary stress and you won't get to a Cortosol Loop so easy. Keep your protein to 175grams or so and cut out the carbs. Adjust your calories with fat. If you keep your fat high you wont lose much muscle.

My take on Protein and Fat:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=310122#post310122

kendo
05-28-2002, 01:41 AM
Good post ojs! By the way ojs can you have Cortisol Loops for breakfast on cheat days :rolleyes:

ojs
05-28-2002, 02:09 AM
Kendo,

Originally posted by kendo
Good post ojs!
Thanks. Charger seems like a nice guy. Just thought I'd try to help.

Originally posted by kendo
By the way ojs can you have Cortisol Loops for breakfast on cheat days :rolleyes:
With milk and sliced bananas. Would you have it any other way? ;)

MAX MADMAN
05-28-2002, 11:24 AM
Charger:

1st of all......hang in there, bud! I believe that OJS's reply makes a lot of sense.

At the risk of oversimplification and contradiction, I was going to suggest considering keeping your protein grams up, but dropping carbs a bit (or cycling them) while doing cardio at a slower pace to begin with then adjusting intensity as you see fit. Not sure of your weight training scheme, but you may also want to consider changing it up a bit at this time.

In summary................let the weight training take care of the muscle and let the diet and cardio take care of the fat.

Also..........sounds like a bit of a stressful time for you, so, if you can handle it, take a cheat day, eat your favorite things and enjoy it!

ojs
05-28-2002, 03:19 PM
MAX MADMAN,

Originally posted by MAX MADMAN
...At the risk of oversimplification and contradiction, I was going to suggest considering keeping your protein grams up, but dropping carbs a bit (or cycling them) while doing cardio

...In summary................let the weight training take care of the muscle and let the diet and cardio take care of the fat.

Also..........sounds like a bit of a stressful time for you, so, if you can handle it, take a cheat day, eat your favorite things and enjoy it!
Contradiction?? Not really. If you don't mind doing cardio and losing a little more muscle, higher protein + cycling low carbs works. It's just that you work against your body chemistry a little more. Other than that were saying the same thing.

Only my version goes; train for muscle, diet for fat. Save the cardio for the stubborn fat at the end. Lower stress and slow down a bit. Then your results are a sure thing. Think Rabbit / Tortoise :)

Charger
05-28-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by ojs


Thanks. Charger seems like a nice guy. Just thought I'd try to help.



OJS, thanks, that was nice to say, wrong but nice.:D

MAX, I am one step ahead of you, did I ever cheat yesterday!
I have mixed up my training(higher reps, lower weight) as for cardio, I prefer to do a treadmill at full incline at a fast walk(protect the knees!) I am doing 30 minutes. As for diet, I am going with high protein, low carbs.

As for Stress HIGH,but getting better. I am a creature of habit and routine, mess it up and I am stressed, lately , well I guess you know. I have VACATION!!!!!!! coming and a lighter work schedule so I hope to post more positive results.

Thanks again, Kendo, OJS and Max

kendo
05-29-2002, 01:58 AM
I have experimented with having and not having cheat days and discovered that when I dont cheat there is less fat loss, I feel worse and look flat. I think knowing there's a cheat day at the end of the week motivates you more causing less stress. Being too hard on yourself as Irecently found certainly does shut things down. Good thread guys helped me out too!

Charger
06-02-2002, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Charger
I am NOT happy! I have been cutting for the last few weeks and making good progress. I checked my bf and weight today and I lost lean mass and gained fat after taking a week off.
My knee's were aching so I quit my cardio, took the week off lifting to heal and thought maybe even gain mass, WRONG!!!!

Here are my stats since 4-21 I started at 212 pounds but didn't keep track until 4-21
4-21 w-205 bf 16.1 lean mass 172.1
4-28 w-202 bf 15.5 lean mass 170.5
5-5 w-200 bf 14.3 lean mass 171.4
5-12 w 197 bf 13.1 lean mass 171.1
5-19 w 194 bf 11.6 lean mass 171.6
5-26 w 192 bf 12.2 lean mass 169.2



6-02 w 195 bf 11.6 lean mass 171.6 corrected(172.38)


Back on track :) I uped my cals a little(carbs) and started back on creatine also. I feel better and look better, thats what counts. Four more weeks to reach my goal, 10%

Charger
06-02-2002, 08:28 AM
That didn't make sense, I just recalculated my bf % / lean mass
195 x 11.6% = 22.62 fat which would be 172.38 lean mass

better yet! I don't compete and have no intentions to compete so a little extra fat is better than losing too much lean mass. I know in order to get to 10% I will have to give up a little L M as well but I hope to keep it to a minimum.

Charger
06-16-2002, 10:02 AM
I don't know how but I managed to gain mass and lower bf at the same time. Weight stayed the same.

This week 6-16-02

w- 195 bf 10.0 lean mass 175

I calculated this twice and the first time it came up as 9.6 but after remeasuring I came up with a 1 mm diference on my pec measurement which uped it to 10%

This is big for me, it really means alot, thanks for letting me share this with all of you and the support I have gotten.
To think that 4 years ago at the worst time of my life, I was 216 with a beach ball beer belly and looked like ****.
What a Fathersday present!!!!!
I'll get brave a post some pics in the future. Today I have a big ol Sirloin waiting to be grilled.

kendo
06-16-2002, 12:18 PM
Congrats charger I'm sure you are chuffed to bits hittin the 10% b/f target and holding on to mass in the process. Just shows and helps others in that overdoin the diet can be detrimental. WAY TO GO BRO :cool:

MAX MADMAN
06-16-2002, 05:36 PM
Congrats, Charger. You ARE the man!!!!!!!!!!

IPR
06-16-2002, 06:06 PM
fantastic to hear your success.......... inspiring!

Charger
06-16-2002, 06:36 PM
I took pics today, have to be developed and scaned and I will post. Thanks again for support! OJS, Kendo, and Max, and IPR, thanks! I will post in over 35 picture post.