Shed ONLY fat? Effective Cardio Plan besides HIIT???

[StudentofYaweh]

This is a question to all of you bodybuilders who've bulked and gained much mass and also had a considerable amount of fat gain. I know I'm not preparing for a contest but I just needed an answer from some of you big namers on this board. Preferably Str8flex or J Neatherlin or whoever. What type of cardio plan have you done to burn ONLY the fat? As in, retaining as much lean tissue mass as possible. I have done HIIT and it has worked, but not the way I wanted it to because I lost alot of fat but also alot of muscle also. But I've put back on the mass since then. I just wanna know how to do it right once i start cutting again, and it doesn't have to be those "lose fat quick" type of routines. If the cardio plan is great even though it might be like 0.5-1 Pound a week, that's ok.

[StudentofYaweh]

And I like HIIT. But I just wanna change it up a bit for now, that's why I'm asking for an alternative, great fat burning excercise.

[ratmonkey]

with unassisted cutting you're going to lose muscle, even with the best drugs you're going to lose muscle.

it's the nature of the human body to use the most readily available energy source while being active in a calorie defecit, and muscle is the preferred source.

[str8flexed]

This is a question to all of you bodybuilders who've bulked and gained much mass and also had a considerable amount of fat gain. I know I'm not preparing for a contest but I just needed an answer from some of you big namers on this board. Preferably Str8flex or J Neatherlin or whoever. What type of cardio plan have you done to burn ONLY the fat? As in, retaining as much lean tissue mass as possible. I have done HIIT and it has worked, but not the way I wanted it to because I lost alot of fat but also alot of muscle also. But I've put back on the mass since then. I just wanna know how to do it right once i start cutting again, and it doesn't have to be those "lose fat quick" type of routines. If the cardio plan is great even though it might be like 0.5-1 Pound a week, that's ok.

If HIIT didn't work for you, it probably was due to some factor other than the HIIT itself. To be honest in all the people i've ever helped for a show or for anything, i've never seen HIIT not be effective.

-Layne

[freebsd]

just do low intensity cardio

[str8flexed]

with unassisted cutting you're going to lose muscle, even with the best drugs you're going to lose muscle.

it's the nature of the human body to use the most readily available energy source while being active in a calorie defecit, and muscle is the preferred source.

actually that really depends how far your body is above it's muscular genetic setpoint. Starvation studies in man by Cahill, et al., actual seem to indicate that the body will go to extreme lengths to spare muscle tissue, though I imagine this changes in people who are more muscular than nature intended, though to what degree I am not certain.

[StudentofYaweh]

If HIIT didn't work for you, it probably was due to some factor other than the HIIT itself. To be honest in all the people i've ever helped for a show or for anything, i've never seen HIIT not be effective.

-Layne


I guess HIIT didn't work if I lost muscle along with the fat, because while I did shed the fat off, I lost quite a bit of lean tissue. Now that I'm bulking again and I believe I've put on some mass since then, I just want to change up the cardio just for a little while. Is there any type of moderate cardio that you would suggest? or are you all for HIIT? I know alot of people want to shed the fat fast and they choose HIIT for that specific reason. I have alot of time so I'm for any type even if it's a half hour cardio session or whatever. Thanks for your replies.

[str8flexed]

I guess HIIT didn't work if I lost muscle along with the fat, because while I did shed the fat off, I lost quite a bit of lean tissue. Now that I'm bulking again and I believe I've put on some mass since then, I just want to change up the cardio just for a little while. Is there any type of moderate cardio that you would suggest? or are you all for HIIT? I know alot of people want to shed the fat fast and they choose HIIT for that specific reason. I have alot of time so I'm for any type even if it's a half hour cardio session or whatever. Thanks for your replies.

when you were doing hiit... how were you doing it, and what was your diet like?

-Layne

[Lyzabeth Lopez]

Sorry,

I'm still a newby to the board. What's HITT?

Lyzabeth Lopez
www.lyzabethlopez.com

[str8flexed]

Sorry,

I'm still a newby to the board. What's HITT?

Lyzabeth Lopez
www.lyzabethlopez.com

high intensity interval training

[StudentofYaweh]

when you were doing hiit... how were you doing it, and what was your diet like?

-Layne

I'm trying hard to remember how my diet and cardio was like because it was months ago since I've been cutting and I have a horrible memory, lol. Well, I always ate like 1/2 cup-1 cup of Oatmeal about half an hour before doing HIIT. Then my HIIT sessions were about 21 minutes with a 3 minute warmup, intervals consisting of 20 second sprints and 40 second jogs, and then a cool down jog of 3 minutes. Afterward, I took about two scoops of ON 100% Whey and 2 scoops of Gatorade powder with cold water. An hour later, I had some sort of high protein, carb meal. Can't really remember what I ate.

I can't recall the specific type of meals I ate when cutting, but I do remember what types of foods I consumed. They were usually the regular bodybuilding foods like tuna, eggs, lean ground beef, wheat bread, brown rice, chicken breasts, etc.

What I did with my calorie count was something like multiplying my bodyweight x10 and then I would take that and subtract probably only subtract 100 calories from it. I think that was most likely how I did it. So If I weighed 150, I got 1500 calories and then I'd eat 1400 calories in a day. I'm guessing that's where the problem is?

:confused:

[Lyzabeth Lopez]

If you're trying to cut, why are you eating oatmeal before doing your cardio. The best fat buring is when you have little to no glycogen in your muslces?

Lyzabeth
www.lyzabethlopez.com

[j_neatherlin]

If you're trying to cut, why are you eating oatmeal before doing your cardio. The best fat buring is when you have little to no glycogen in your muslces?

Lyzabeth
www.lyzabethlopez.com

b/c as the name (HIIT) implies, it's very demanding. It is also almost anaerobic...and I believe EPOC/calories burned afterwards tend to play more into the fat burning with HIIT than does the actual calories burned during the HIIT sessions themselves.

[str8flexed]

If you're trying to cut, why are you eating oatmeal before doing your cardio. The best fat buring is when you have little to no glycogen in your muslces?

Lyzabeth
www.lyzabethlopez.com


Lyzabeth, this is from a pre-contest article of mine...

Cardiovascular exercise has several myths surrounding it. The largest myth being that one should perform low intensity cardio in a fasted state. The logic being that if one is in a fasted state, their glycogen levels will be low and will force their body to burn fat. Unfortunately, this idea is misguided. While performing cardio in a fasted state may indeed increase the amount of calories that are burned from fat stores, it will also increase amino acid oxidation. Cardiovascular exercise while in a fasted state is a great way to increase cortisol release. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. Additionally, I find it ironic that many people take such great care to time their meals so that they do not go for more than 2-3 hours without eating in order to prevent muscle loss. However, they purposefully induce this state and then perform work on top of this! Research has shown that the type of substrate used during cardiovascular work makes little overall difference on fat loss. This is most likely due to the fact if one relies mostly upon fat stores during cardio (i.e. low intensity cardio), the body will burn predominantly glucose at other times of the day. Likewise, if one mainly utilizes glucose for energy during cardio (i.e. high intensity cardio) the body will customarily rely on fat at other times of the day in order to spare muscle glycogen. Training in and of itself causes the body to preferentially spare muscle glycogen and burn fat. It makes sense that one should strive to do their cardio on their ‘off days’ from lifting (as to not further hinder their recovery), and plan their carbohydrate intake similar to their lifting regime. Cardiovascular work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue.

Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest?
It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting.

Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument “Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity” cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism). Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons…
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low- intensity cardio.
Low periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.
The body’s hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body’s hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.

High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIIT) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories .
At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I’ve seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

http://www.dolfzine.com/page483.htm (if you only read one article… READ THIS ONE!)
http://www.dolfzine.com/page484.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter3.htm

I also implore you to read this thread from the bodybuilding.com message boards as it may help you better understand the subject and or answer any questions you might have.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99420

[j_neatherlin]

I'm thinking that your diet is probably why you didn't have the results that you desired. You were eating too few calories.

How many HIIT sessions per week were you doing? What is the rest of your training like?

As far as my recommendations are concerned:

1) Increase calories. I would also increase fats as it doesn't seem like you're eating much in the way of fat (I like to keep my fat intake ~30 - 35% while cutting...not sure where Layne likes to keep his, but I doubt it's as high).

2) 2-3 HIIT sessions/week.

3) 3 sessions of 30-45 min LOW intensity aerobics/cardio each week

[StudentofYaweh]

I'm thinking that your diet is probably why you didn't have the results that you desired. You were eating too few calories.

How many HIIT sessions per week were you doing? What is the rest of your training like?

As far as my recommendations are concerned:

1) Increase calories. I would also increase fats as it doesn't seem like you're eating much in the way of fat (I like to keep my fat intake ~30 - 35% while cutting...not sure where Layne likes to keep his, but I doubt it's as high).

2) 2-3 HIIT sessions/week.

3) 3 sessions of 30-45 min LOW intensity aerobics/cardio each week


I was doing 4-5 HIIT cardio sessions a week.

Weight training was the usual. Lifting heavy for about 45 min. to an hour. My cardio sessions were in the morning while my weight training was around evening time, say, around 4-6 PM.

Do you mean for 3 days, I should do HIIT and the remaining 3 days of the week I should do low intensity cardio?

thanks for your responses.

[j_neatherlin]

Lyzabeth, this is from a pre-contest article of mine...


yeah...what Layne said!

[j_neatherlin]

I was doing 4-5 HIIT cardio sessions a week.

Weight training was the usual. Lifting heavy for about 45 min. to an hour. My cardio sessions were in the morning while my weight training was around evening time, say, around 4-6 PM.

Do you mean for 3 days, I should do HIIT and the remaining 3 days of the week I should do low intensity cardio?

thanks for your responses.

4-5 HIIT sessions per week might have been too much. Were you also training legs during this time? If so, I'm thinking you were probably overtrained. esp w/ your caloric intake being so low.

Yes, 6 days of cardio.

[StudentofYaweh]

4-5 HIIT sessions per week might have been too much. Were you also training legs during this time? If so, I'm thinking you were probably overtrained. esp w/ your caloric intake being so low.

Yes, 6 days of cardio.


How much calories would it be better for me to take in? Maybe that was the reason why I lost muscle, and I think I was losing more than 2 lbs. a week.

J_neatherlin, how did you do your low intensity cardio? did you just set the treadmil or whatever machine you used to low intensity, or did you include finding out all that other stuff like heart rate and so forth?

[j_neatherlin]

for low intensity cardio, I would just hop on whatever machine (usually recumbent bike) and go at it for a while...not going very hard or fast. don't go super slow...but go at a comfortable pace.

You'll have to play around with your caloric intake, but you should probably start around 2000 calories and go from there. Make subtle changes every few weeks or so to keep your progress steady w/o losing too much muscle. I wouldn't suggest you go any lower than 1800 calories, though.

[StudentofYaweh]

Alright, I'll try that. I have the stationary bike and a treadmil but I haven't put the bike to use yet. I'm gonna have to work that thing.

2000 calories would be the cutting caloric intake for someone who weighs around 150? I'm guessing by that common formula of bodyweight x10, that would be 500 calories more. Then how do you go about lowering your calories?

Sorry for any inconvenience. I'm grateful that you're willing to answer my questions. I know it gets redundant, knowing alot of people probably ask you the same questions, maybe because you've got a physique to strive for. But I'll stop the questions if you feel I need to use the search engine.

[j_neatherlin]

well honestly, I can't say for sure what a good caloric intake would be for you for cutting. It's really an individual thing, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that 1500 calories for you is just too few. I think 2000 would be a good place to start and to be completely honest with you, I would be very surprised if it were too many.

Also, don't neglect to pay attention to the QUALITY of your foods. Make sure that you consume whole, natural foods. I try to eat "close to nature," meaning that I will eat grains, but not breads. Fresh and frozen fruits and vegetables, but not canned or those contained in syrups or whatever. I will buy fresh or frozen raw meats, but not precooked or deli meats. Does that make sense?

[str8flexed]

Alright, I'll try that. I have the stationary bike and a treadmil but I haven't put the bike to use yet. I'm gonna have to work that thing.

2000 calories would be the cutting caloric intake for someone who weighs around 150? I'm guessing by that common formula of bodyweight x10, that would be 500 calories more. Then how do you go about lowering your calories?

Sorry for any inconvenience. I'm grateful that you're willing to answer my questions. I know it gets redundant, knowing alot of people probably ask you the same questions, maybe because you've got a physique to strive for. But I'll stop the questions if you feel I need to use the search engine.

I think 150 X 10 is really really low... 150 X 12 is as low as i'd go.

-Layne

[StudentofYaweh]

well honestly, I can't say for sure what a good caloric intake would be for you for cutting. It's really an individual thing, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that 1500 calories for you is just too few. I think 2000 would be a good place to start and to be completely honest with you, I would be very surprised if it were too many.

Also, don't neglect to pay attention to the QUALITY of your foods. Make sure that you consume whole, natural foods. I try to eat "close to nature," meaning that I will eat grains, but not breads. Fresh and frozen fruits and vegetables, but not canned or those contained in syrups or whatever. I will buy fresh or frozen raw meats, but not precooked or deli meats. Does that make sense?

Okay. Well, I'll take your advice and experiment a bit with it. From what I've read, 0.5-1.5 lbs. a week is the rate at which it would be appropriate to lose the pounds. Anyway, I'm around 155 at 5'6. That's pretty light but this is huge in contrast to the time that I was heavy and at 217. I'm going to continue to bulk and I know that I should be able to tell myself when to start cutting and whatnot. Thanks for your time bro.

[StudentofYaweh]

I think 150 X 10 is really really low... 150 X 12 is as low as i'd go.

-Layne

Fair enough. Do you recommend around bw x15? If I were to start cutting at 170, that would be 2550 calories. That's alot more calories than I ate on my previous cut. How did you personally go about lowering your calories? Thanks for your replies Layne.

[kbickham]

This is a question to all of you bodybuilders who've bulked and gained much mass and also had a considerable amount of fat gain. I know I'm not preparing for a contest but I just needed an answer from some of you big namers on this board. Preferably Str8flex or J Neatherlin or whoever. What type of cardio plan have you done to burn ONLY the fat? As in, retaining as much lean tissue mass as possible. I have done HIIT and it has worked, but not the way I wanted it to because I lost alot of fat but also alot of muscle also. But I've put back on the mass since then. I just wanna know how to do it right once i start cutting again, and it doesn't have to be those "lose fat quick" type of routines. If the cardio plan is great even though it might be like 0.5-1 Pound a week, that's ok.

how di dyou do it though? high gi carbs+protein before AND after? because hiit in a fasted state is a GREAT way to kiss you mass goodbye

[Hardcore Natural]

Layne - I too used a form of HIIT cardio for my first contest and I lost a total of 22 pounds. I went from 200 before starting my pre-contest diet, down to 178 completely shredded. I used Max OT cardio, and worked up to doing it 5 times per week for the last 3 weeks of my preparation. In the beginning, I was losing about 2 pounds per week, but then there were some weeks where I noticed I lost 3-4 pounds.

Even tho I got shredded and did lose the fat no problem, I too am thinking that I may have lost too much muscle and could of come in heavier with more lean mass while ending up just as shredded. If you could, would you take a look at my pictures (some of me at 5 weeks out, some at 2 weeks out and some the day after the contest), and if possible be able to assess if I should have lightened up on the cardio frequency and give your opinion if you think I did lose too much muscle in the process? Thanks in advance.

-Todd

[Hardcore Natural]

Assessment pictures continued...

Day after contest...

http://www.members.shaw.ca/muscleman/pics/2001_0510_225304aa.jpg

http://www.members.shaw.ca/muscleman/pics/2001_0510_230032aa.jpg

http://www.members.shaw.ca/muscleman/pics/2001_0510_225956aa.jpg

So, from all the pics, does it appear I lost too much muscle?

[StudentofYaweh]

Assessment pictures continued...

Day after contest...

http://www.members.shaw.ca/muscleman/pics/2001_0510_225304aa.jpg

http://www.members.shaw.ca/muscleman/pics/2001_0510_230032aa.jpg

http://www.members.shaw.ca/muscleman/pics/2001_0510_225956aa.jpg

So, from all the pics, does it appear I lost too much muscle?

Bro, that isn't even a question. In my point of view, you didn't lose that much muscle at all. You look shredded in the pictures of you afer your cut. Great Job! Can you tell me though, how did you do your cardio? What was your pre/post nutrition, and how much calories did you take in daily while you were cutting (bodyweight x10, -500)?

Nevertheless, a real good job IMO.

And to kbickham, I think I also did my nutrition wrong. I took only carbs before my HIIT cardio. But I did take carbs and protein post workout.

[Hardcore Natural]

Bro, that isn't even a question. In my point of view, you didn't lose that much muscle at all. You look shredded in the pictures of you afer your cut. Great Job! Can you tell me though, how did you do your cardio? What was your pre/post nutrition, and how much calories did you take in daily while you were cutting (bodyweight x10, -500)?


Well, I agree with you that I did accomplish getting shredded, but I still feel I may have lost too much lean muscle along the way, but am not sure. I did lose 22 pounds in the dieting process over a 9 week period, and there were some weeks where I lost 3-4 pounds, not 1-2 like one really should, so therefore I feel I probably lost too much along the way.

Anyways, I did Max OT cardio, where I did 16 minutes per session on the treadmill, which is what I prefer. I recorded my distance and calories burned from each session, and then beat all that slightly each and every time out. My pre and post nutrition was the same - a whey protein shake along with 5 grams creatine and glutamine mixed in. I did this for before and after each session.

While cutting I pretty much lowerd my calories by 150 or so calories each week, skimming away those calories (complex carbs) first from other meals of the day, then from post-workout meals, as the contest grew closer. By the time 3 weeks out came, I was then down to no complex carbs per day and just basically protein isolate shakes and green beans for almost every single meal of the day (besides pre/post workout and cardio). I didn't use a systematic process (like bodyweight x10, -500) or anything, but just found my "maintenance calorie level) at 9 weeks out, and then began lopping off 150 calories per week, and saw how I looked as time passed. That's pretty much it. As you can see tho, I was much fuller and tighter the day after the comp. I'd say I missed my peak by 1 day. Lesson learned I suppose.

[StudentofYaweh]

Well, I agree with you that I did accomplish getting shredded, but I still feel I may have lost too much lean muscle along the way, but am not sure. I did lose 22 pounds in the dieting process over a 9 week period, and there were some weeks where I lost 3-4 pounds, not 1-2 like one really should, so therefore I feel I probably lost too much along the way.

Anyways, I did Max OT cardio, where I did 16 minutes per session on the treadmill, which is what I prefer. I recorded my distance and calories burned from each session, and then beat all that slightly each and every time out. My pre and post nutrition was the same - a whey protein shake along with 5 grams creatine and glutamine mixed in. I did this for before and after each session.

While cutting I pretty much lowerd my calories by 150 or so calories each week, skimming away those calories (complex carbs) first from other meals of the day, then from post-workout meals, as the contest grew closer. By the time 3 weeks out came, I was then down to no complex carbs per day and just basically protein isolate shakes and green beans for almost every single meal of the day (besides pre/post workout and cardio). I didn't use a systematic process (like bodyweight x10, -500) or anything, but just found my "maintenance calorie level) at 9 weeks out, and then began lopping off 150 calories per week, and saw how I looked as time passed. That's pretty much it. As you can see tho, I was much fuller and tighter the day after the comp. I'd say I missed my peak by 1 day. Lesson learned I suppose.

Thanks. You looked good nonetheless.