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Gunman
09-01-2004, 10:53 AM
What are the best exercises to acomplish this?

EliteLifts
09-01-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Gunman
What are the best exercises to acomplish this?

Squats

Deads

Lots of food.

bigpump23
09-01-2004, 12:55 PM
as far as mass for the obliqies your the first person I ever heard ask that. You probably just mean, "how do I get" them.Side bends and twists, more importantly a good cutting diet

GymMonkey
09-01-2004, 01:07 PM
I was thinking the same he probably wants them to be cut because gaining mass on your obliques would make your back and upper body appear to be smaller.

Stagger
09-01-2004, 01:54 PM
Deadlifts work well. If you want to target them directly, do "saxon side bends" where you hold a couple of dumbells above your head and bend from side to side.

Shown here: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459681

Just scroll down and you'll find it, it's one of the best core exercises out there. But I have to warn you, start light! Start very light and move up until you're comfortable with it. I started too heavy and on the first bend my spine went to hell.

hate
09-01-2004, 02:06 PM
large obliques make for a cylinder shape instead of a v-shape. if you're bulking up right now, i wouldn't even worry about them. wait until you're cutting. proper diet is gonna be the best route. the only exercise i do for them is bent leg raises. by bending my legs i keep from over exerting my lower back. though some may argue that this exercise involves too much hip flexion... it's worked well for me.

zackmurphy
09-01-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by EliteLifts
Squats

Deads

Lots of food.
??

What other muscles would you work with isometrics and with movements that use them as simple stabilizers? The obliques get active use with twisting. One does a concentric, the other an eccentic, simultaneously. How does a dead or a squat simulate that?

EliteLifts
09-01-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by zackmurphy
??

What other muscles would you work with isometrics and with movements that use them as simple stabilizers? The obliques get active use with twisting. One does a concentric, the other an eccentic, simultaneously. How does a dead or a squat simulate that?

Uh....the point is, deads and squats will add mass everywhere. I'm sure, no make that know, that that would include obliques as well.

I've never done a side bend or a twist or any of that other **** in my life and my obliques have come along quite nicely.

zackmurphy
09-01-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by EliteLifts
Uh....the point is, deads and squats will add mass everywhere. I'm sure, no make that know, that that would include obliques as well.

I've never done a side bend or a twist or any of that other **** in my life and my obliques have come along quite nicely.
Sure, get a good-preworkout meal in, get some good ol' insulin floating around, your body is primed for anabolism, and do some full-body movements. Of course you'll get some general growth. I'm not disputing that.

But as far as how to train a certain area - why would you pick two movements that don't even do a concentric contraction on that area, as opposed to the basic, solid oblique movements we all know and love? Those three on the t-mag link, for example. To develop obliques, they chose 3 moves that acively contract the obliques. Not deads.

I can grow my delts from squats, but it doesn't mean squats are a great delt move.

Besides, you use your obliques all day every day, in the gym and out. Not as if they're just magically developing with only deads.

It's nothing personal, truly - I just feel this tendency to suggest whole-body moves for abs and core muscles has been taken a little too far (and without any actual basis in fact). EMG studies have shows that the abs and obliques don't even contract on deads and squats, except for brief isometrics, simply to stabilize the upper body. Not even a sustained torque is placed on them.

zackmurphy
09-01-2004, 05:19 PM
In fact, chalk this discussion up as why I love this site sometimes. We're now debating how to grow mass on obliques. Could there be a more boring muscle group to work than the int/ext obliques? But hey - let's talk about it. Awesome.

****in A, man.

EliteLifts
09-01-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by zackmurphy
Sure, get a good-preworkout meal in, get some good ol' insulin floating around, your body is primed for anabolism, and do some full-body movements. Of course you'll get some general growth. I'm not disputing that.

But as far as how to train a certain area - why would you pick two movements that don't even do a concentric contraction on that area, as opposed to the basic, solid oblique movements we all know and love? Those three on the t-mag link, for example. To develop obliques, they chose 3 moves that acively contract the obliques. Not deads.

I can grow my delts from squats, but it doesn't mean squats are a great delt move.

Besides, you use your obliques all day every day, in the gym and out. Not as if they're just magically developing with only deads.

It's nothing personal, truly - I just feel this tendency to suggest whole-body moves for abs and core muscles has been taken a little too far (and without any actual basis in fact). EMG studies have shows that the abs and obliques don't even contract on deads and squats, except for brief isometrics, simply to stabilize the upper body. Not even a sustained torque is placed on them.

Didn't take it personally at all bro. I use myself as an example when talking about what works and what doesn't work. As you fully know, everyone is different in this game.

And I agree, it is a pretty boring muscle group to be talking about.

Stagger
09-01-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by zackmurphy
??

What other muscles would you work with isometrics and with movements that use them as simple stabilizers? The obliques get active use with twisting. One does a concentric, the other an eccentic, simultaneously. How does a dead or a squat simulate that?

Obliques do a ton of work stabilizing the spine. Some people on here have even complained of too much oblique growth when they start doing deads.

zackmurphy
09-01-2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Stagger
Some people on here have even complained of too much oblique growth when they start doing deads.
Lol. Yeah, I keep seeing threads about that.

rick martel
09-01-2004, 06:55 PM
hehe, would you say squats will develope a lesser growth then deads even if they both activate the obliques as stabalisers?

different movement, different scenarios? i dunno.

Stagger
09-01-2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by zackmurphy
Sure, get a good-preworkout meal in, get some good ol' insulin floating around, your body is primed for anabolism, and do some full-body movements. Of course you'll get some general growth. I'm not disputing that.

But as far as how to train a certain area - why would you pick two movements that don't even do a concentric contraction on that area, as opposed to the basic, solid oblique movements we all know and love? Those three on the t-mag link, for example. To develop obliques, they chose 3 moves that acively contract the obliques. Not deads.

I can grow my delts from squats, but it doesn't mean squats are a great delt move.

Besides, you use your obliques all day every day, in the gym and out. Not as if they're just magically developing with only deads.

It's nothing personal, truly - I just feel this tendency to suggest whole-body moves for abs and core muscles has been taken a little too far (and without any actual basis in fact). EMG studies have shows that the abs and obliques don't even contract on deads and squats, except for brief isometrics, simply to stabilize the upper body. Not even a sustained torque is placed on them.

If it works, it works. Forget EMG studies, if deadlifts make your obliques grow a lot, then they're a good oblique exercise. Your waist muscles are made for stabilization of the body during full-body load-bearing movements. Especially your obliques, since your rectus abdominis doesn't do much to protect the spine.

dookie1481
09-01-2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Stagger
If it works, it works. Forget EMG studies, if deadlifts make your obliques grow a lot, then they're a good oblique exercise. Your waist muscles are made for stabilization of the body during full-body load-bearing movements. Especially your obliques, since your rectus abdominis doesn't do much to protect the spine.

Actually, the TVA does most of the work stabilizing the spine.

El Dudereno
09-02-2004, 12:34 AM
My obliques and abs are always massively sore after deadlift. That at least means those muscles aren't exactly twiddling their thumbs during that exercise.

zackmurphy
09-02-2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Stagger
If it works, it works. Forget EMG studies, if deadlifts make your obliques grow a lot, then they're a good oblique exercise. Your waist muscles are made for stabilization of the body during full-body load-bearing movements. Especially your obliques, since your rectus abdominis doesn't do much to protect the spine.
I do get your point - please don't think I fail to understand the "if it works" or "if it makes them sore" argument. Certainly, if some movement, any movement, makes an unexpected or indirectly worked part sort, then you have proven that a) that move hits that muscle more than you thought, or b) you really had underdeveloped and ignored that now-sore muscle.

And I think it's more option B that's being cited here.

EMG studies aren't hocus pocus. I think people tend to blow off what they haven't had much experience with, and no biggie - how many of us hook ourselves up to EMGs before we do our delt routine - but we all can feel what it feels like to get the delts tired. They simply show how much muscle fiber activity there is during a move, and for squats and deads (and the article I was reading cited SLDLs and other full body lifts like that, too), the work on the rectus abdominus and int. and ext. obliques, the impulses/contractions were short, inconsistent, mostly isometric, and only related to general stability. Interesting, the transverse abdominus got much more action than expected on those, presumably because of forceful respiration (exhalation) during the concentric.

Anyway, oh - and ElDuderino, this is mainly directed at you: I know we're chatted before about routines and diets and such, and I don't recall what kind of program you're working right now, but if your obliques and abs are "always massively sore after deadlift", I would wonder what your ab and oblique exercises are, if you do ab and oblique work. It would suggest you're not training them enough or properly. No offense is intended in any way. I just know that if my calves were always sore from squats, I would draw from that to do more calf work, not that squats are great for calves. You know?

Okay, enough of that.