Less = More

[Gibblets]

Derek, I want to see what your opinion is on NOT giving shoulders, triceps, biceps, and forearms direct work. I have decided to take direct arm work out of my routine, and just stick with heavy chest and back exercises to work the bi's and tri's, and was wondering if the same could be applied to those small lagging muscle groups. So in effect, the only exercises you would need in such a routine would be:

bench presses (incline and flat, dumbbell and barbell)
dips
barbell rows
pull ups
deadlifts
squats
leg press
calve raises
crunches

That would be it...all of the small muscle groups would be hit with those exercises. Would it be worth trying?

This has sparked quite a debate in the workout program section, so I figured I'd run it by an experienced bodybuilder such as yourself :)

[boffo234]

I'm not Derek, but I'd think he'd tell you to put some shoulder work in there, like Military Press or what have you.

[Beast]

How many times a week would you do that?

[sword chucks]

IMO ab work is the least necesary.

It looks like you've got a good plan going, some overhead presses wouldn't hurt but they might not be necesary either. I've found dips to be a great delt exercise.

Maybe think about exercise order also- bench presses before deadlifts? Deadlifts before squats? More taxing stuff should go first.

[Gibblets]

It would be a 3 day split. The exercises would be split into the following:

Monday: CHEST (shoulders, triceps worked as well)

Incline Barbell Bench Press 3 x 6-8
Flat Dumbbell Bench Press 3 x 6-8
Lateral Raises 2 x 8-10

Wednesday BACK (biceps, forearms, traps, and lats worked too)

Weighted Pull Up 3 x 6-8
Barbell Row 3 x 8-10
Deadlift 3 x 6-8

Friday QUADS AND HAMS

Squat 4 x 8-12
SLDL 4 x 8-12
Leg Press 3 x 6-8
Lying Leg Curl 3 x 6-8

Calves and Abs worked twice every 7 days, using seated/standing calve raises 5 x 12-15, and sit ups and/or crunches, 3-4 x 20-25

And that's it! No direct work of any of my lagging small muscle groups.

See what I mean now Derek? Basically, I leave my original split unchanged....just take out all direct work on lagging parts...the workouts should now only take 25-30 min. This way, I can avoid overtraining the arms, and the shoulders, as well as significantly shorten the workouts.

[Gastrocnemius]

benching more taxing than deadlifts?

[SideFX]

Why would you use all compound movements and then throw in lateral raises? military press would be a much better alternative if thats the kind of workout your leaning towards. And in response to the "less is more statement" that is really only true if you are overtraining. I fail to see the logic in reducing workout intensity for lagging muscle groups(unless you are overworking them of course.) You should focus even more on these muscle groups, not less. I guess if you wanna try it, it cant do any harm though.

[adonis]

there are some merits i.e. i dont do shrugs because i dont see how shrugging is going to beat my heavy deadlifts

in the same way i dont do rear laterals because heavy ass rows will be better than bent over rows.

same applies to side laterals but i still do em... i duno i guess im only human!
lol

just my opinion

[Beast]

Originally posted by Gibblets
It would be a 3 day split. The exercises would be split into the following:

Monday: CHEST (shoulders, triceps worked as well)

Incline Barbell Bench Press 3 x 6-8
Flat Dumbbell Bench Press 3 x 6-8
Lateral Raises 2 x 8-10

Wednesday BACK (biceps, forearms, traps, and lats worked too)

Weighted Pull Up 3 x 6-8
Barbell Row 3 x 8-10
Deadlift 3 x 6-8

Friday QUADS AND HAMS

Squat 4 x 8-12
SLDL 4 x 8-12
Leg Press 3 x 6-8
Lying Leg Curl 3 x 6-8

Calves and Abs worked twice every 7 days, using seated/standing calve raises 5 x 12-15, and sit ups and/or crunches, 3-4 x 20-25



That could work. Me personally, I would do 2 sets of Close grip bench on Monday and 2 sets of barbell curls on Wednesday, just to hit the bis and tris some.

[Gibblets]

Yeah, see that is another option. Just keep a little tiny bit of arm work in there, just for safety and/or mental reasons...lol.

I'm gonna give the NO direct work split a try, and if I go crazy or not make any gains, I'll stick to what you recommended.

Thanks for your time.

[Wreck]

Originally posted by SideFX
Why would you use all compound movements and then throw in lateral raises? military press would be a much better alternative

I completely agree.

[U-Hulk]

Originally posted by SideFX
Why would you use all compound movements and then throw in lateral raises? military press would be a much better alternative if thats the kind of workout your leaning towards.As I see it, if your goal is muscular development (as in bodybuilding) you pretty much have to do lateral raises in order to hit the medial head of the deltoid complex.

EMG studies show that presses mainly stress the anterior deltoids. Apart from lateral raises there are very few exercises that hit the medial delts sufficiently. Upright rows and overhead lockouts come to mind.

Then if you're after strength, presses are probably more valuable than laterals. But interestingly enough, many world class powerlifters don't do presses for deltoids - just laterals. Bill Kazmaier, for example, used to handle some pretty monstrous poundages in his lateral raises.

[Gibblets]

Ok, well other than the delt aspect, would you guys say I have an otherwise well planned and possibly effective split?

[jc587]

yeah that routine looks solid. However, i would just be concerned of overtraining the lower back. I personally can't do heavy deadlifts and then do heavy squats with stiff leg deads 1 day later, im usually still recovering from the beatdown. If you can..go for it.