Make your own local delivery topicals

[Big Cat]

Introduction

The current wave of local delivery topicals is based on the work of Marcel Nimni (Nimni, 1989, Nimni et al, 1997 & 1998) who developed and patented the trans-phase delivery system in 1989. The local delivery of products was reviewed by Guy and Maibach in 1982, and clearly demonstrated a number of products substantially increased localized subcutaneous concentrations of topically applied products. The products that best succeeded in doing this were those that were amphiphillic, that means they are soluble in both water and organic solvents (alcohols and oils for example).

Nimni's idea was simple : make the compound that needs to be delivered stable and amphiphillic and you can get substantial local delivery, with very minimal systemic delivery. This gives a predominantly localized effect, with minimum systemic (side-)effects. As research has previously demonstrated, benzyl alcohol can form micelles with organic ingredients, like most drugs used, in an aqueous environment. That means if you dissolve the products in benzyl alcohol you form an amphiphillic complex that can pass the skin and is taken up locally in the subcutaneous tissue to a great extent. Simply using benzyl alcohol and your product would already allow for local delivery, especially since benzyl is also a good penetrant of the skin due to its amphiphillic properties. But Nimni's system consisted of two phases. The second phase being a mixture of acetone and isopropanol. Both these solvents are very volatile and have both been shown to enhance skin permeation (Onken and Moyer, 1963). The idea is that the acetone and isopropanol make the skin more permeable and then evaporate, creating a sort of funneling effect that leaves the product entirely dissolved in the less volatile benzyl alcohol, which forms the amphiphillic micelles and carries the product across the skin. It transfers as it were, from one phase to another, and hence was dubbed the trans-phase delivery system by Nimni and his associates (Nimni et al, 1997).

Here are some good tips for people wanting to try this :

- All the ingredients, contrary to the current line of products using this technology are very cheap and very easy to get at any drugstore.

- The current line of products does not use acetone, even though research shows it to be the better product. they only use isopropanol. Using both however will create a much better and more stable effect. Nimni's idea was to use the two products with different evaporation rates to create more of a funneling effect whereby the acetone evaporates, leaving product funneled in a mixture of isopropanol and benzyl and then shortly after the isopropanol evaporates leaving it all in the benzyl.

How to make your own TPDS :

Take the product you wish to deliver, then add benzyl alcohol until it is entirely dissolved, even a few drops more (adequate benzyl for product). Then add a mixture of 4 parts acetone and 5 parts isopropanol, until you get the volume that gives you the desired concentration of drug per ml, and then apply as many ml as necessary to the site of application, twice daily.

Penetration enhancement

The rate limiting step, believe it or not, is still the permeation through the skin. The rate limiting step for that is permeation through the outer most layer, the stratum corneum. The stratum corneum can be depicted, for functional purposes, as a brick wall. The cells, called corneocytes, are the bricks, and in between is a continuous lipid layer that represents the mortar. Whether you traverse the stratum corneum through or between the cells, your penetration enhancers shoudl always exert an effect on the lipid layer. Almost all known permeation enhancers, with the exception of DMSO, work solely on the lipid layer. So that should not be a problem.

Here comes the tricky part, and another were manufacturers of existing products have fumbled a great deal. Penetration enhancers that do not evaporate (like acetone and isopropanol) also traverse the skin. They also dissolve organic compounds very well. That means if you volume of penetration enhancers is to great, a great deal of your product will traverse the skin dissolved in your permeation enhancer instead of in the benzyl micelles, and will be taken up systemic. Making all your efforts fruitless and rendering your product nothing more than a more expensive transdermal product. So when selecting permeation enhancers, select those that have the most effect in the smallest known volume. That is one area where most current products drop the ball.

Occlusion : the contradiction

Occlusion is often used with percutaneous absorption, whether it be local or transdermal, and has been shown to increase penetration of the skin. At first it was believed that this occured through the increase of water in the skin, but increased water was shown to have a minimal effect on lipid disorder in the lipid layers of the stratum corneum (Suhonen et al, 1999), so most likely it is a combination of both increased hydration and increased heat together, with either factor being relatively irrelevant alone.

The contradiction however is that occlusion is not an option with TPDS, since it would prevent evaporation of the first phase, resulting in part of the first phase traversing the skin, with product dissolved, resulting in systemic and not local delivery

This is yet another reason for an extremely small volume of penetration enhancers. If you cannot accomodate this, then it is best not to use PE's at all, as Nimni himself did, rather than risk affecting your primary delivery system.

Why Skulpt didn't work, but how you can make it work in your favour

Skulpt was an analog that was released for a while and then pulled again, that attempted to compete with aforementioned products, but despite all the obvious flaws in said products, failed at doing so.

The idea behind it was to use DMSO as a carrier instead of benzyl alcohol. DMSO is an incredibly potent penetration enhancer that affects both the lipid layers and the structure of the cells in between. It is also amphiphillic and easily builds up in subcutaneous tissues in high concentrations, and a good solvent for most organic compounds. So what was the problem ? Well, apparently DMSO does not function as a carrier. Instead it traverses the skin first and then pulls the product through, so to speak (kurihara-Bergstromm et al, 1987). Which is why skulpt failed.

Using a smaller dose of DMSO with the TPDS would also fail. First of all, when using DMSO as a solvent you need at least 50% for it to work adequately, while even 5% would already be enough to prevent TPDS from working properly. It traverses the skin and is a good solvent, so most of the product would dissolve in the DMSO and be lost systemically, rather than delivered locally through funneling to the benzyl phase.

Using DMSO however would benefit us greatly. Repeated application of percutaneous products results in less and less uptake with each use, and this occurs mostly through resistance in the lipid layers (Barry et all, 1972). So using a product that also works on the cells would definitely attenuate this decrease much much longer.

So how can we use DMSO ? Well the same researchers that found DMSO did not function as a carrier also tested an assymetrical model where they applied the DMSO first, and then the product. This resulted in a notably enhanced uptake of the compound WITH LESS DMSO THAN WHEN USING IT AS A SOLVENT. That means if you pretreat the skin with DMSO, and then apply your TPDS 5-10 minutes later, you have effectively created a product that blows any existing product out of the water.

But because you need less DMSO, and still have better and longer working penetration because of it, and don't require any of the large volume penetration enhancers often used, that screw up TPDS delivery, you save even more money (less DMSO, no other PE's and cheap TPDS in drug store) and get a much greater effect (DMSO stronger PE, TPDS works better).

Considering it was the PE's (and possibly greed) that made these initial formula's so extremely expensive, and that skulpt was also extremely expensive because of the high dose and high quality DMSO (you can choose for yourself now what quality DMSO you like) and both delivered relatively poor results, its basically a win-win situation.

Conclusion

You can no effectively make a local delivery formula in your kitchen that is ten times more effective, and ten times cheaper than any existing formula, and on top of that it allows you to look for cheaper ingredients, ingredients or combinations thereof that you deem more fit, or ingredients that couldn't be legally used by supplement companies.

And trust me, the inquisitive mind can easily improve on even this formula 5-10 times ;)

Enjoy all homebrewers ...

[MISTERDUDE]

Such awesome posts. And the articles you write for BB.com. Have you ever thought of writing for a magazine? There are many (well, not as many as there should be) hardcore bodybuilding magazine who would love suff like this, plus they would pay you the big $$$. Not to mention all your experience as a trainer....you may have thought of this already, but I just thought I would post it anyway. Thanks for all the time you put in here, I always learn a lot from everything you post.

[Big Cat]

Thank you, and although I'm always looking to make a buck, I'm not in this for the big bucks. I do this because I love it. If you found this post helpful, then that's already good enough for me.

I have had a few offers from magazines, but they always tell you you can only write so much, which usually means I need to dim it down, and I prefer writing about what interests me most. But when I get an offer that lets me write what I want, I'll take it ;)

[musclemidget]

could you post a sample mixture of something like a topical 4-AD?

[Big Cat]

Well I don't know any solution rates for products in benzyl alcohol by heart, so that would be hard. But for instance if you wanted to create 6 grams of yohimbine Hcl, 8 oz worth (240 ml) then you would proceed by adding benzyl alcohol to your 6 grams of powderuntil it is completely dissolved and maybe 1 or 2 ml more, because since benzyl is the carrier, you want to make sure there is adequate carrier for your product. Then you add your acetone/isopropyl (4-5) mixture until the total reaches 8 oz.

If you are looking to deliver anabolic compounds, keep in mind that efficacy will vary depending on how deep the muscle is located. In an area with next to no fat, where the muscle is close to the skin, more product will build up, whereas in areas where more fat covers the muscle and distance is greater, less product will build up. The efficacy of local muscle building preparations is therefor largely dependent on the amount of fat in the place of application. Since this formula is more effective than current preparations, it will still deliver better results than existing commercial preparations.

For fat loss you can't go wrong, you will want to get rid of subcutaneous fat, which is always located right beneath the skin. Deepe subcutaneous adipose stores are harder to reach, but they respond better to lipolytic signals (Monzon et al, 2002) so fat loss should continue at an equal rate if skin doesn't become more resistant. Because of pretreatment with DMSO, resistance should develop to a much lesser extent than with current commercially available preparations.

[pogue]

BC, what is your opinion of using freebase compounds, vs ones with the hydrochloride still attached (ie: base yohimbine vs yohimbine hcl) when dealing with absorption rates? Do you think it makes much of a difference?

[Big Cat]

Not really, since the benzyl acts as a carrier. It all depends on how well the organic compound dissolves in the benzyl alcohol. To be correct you should test both and see which dissolves best and use that one. I'm guessing HCl would make it more hydrophillic and that may not be the best idea.

In any case, don't use long esters that make the product extremely lipophillic. Benzyl alcohol forms micelles in an aqueous environment, but not necessarily in an organic environment. The same thing that goes for the large volume PE's goes here, if it is too lipophillic more of it may be lost systemically. so for steroids and prohormones, definitely no esters.

[JustBrowsin]

stupid question perhaps, but what exactly is a local delivery topical?

[Rushi]

Originally posted by JustBrowsin
stupid question perhaps, but what exactly is a local delivery topical?

local delivery topicals are designed to administer a drug by a liquid based gel applied to the skin with the goal of having absorption/effects of the drug only in a specific area.

they're commonly used for localized fat loss in stubborn areas of the body such as the love handles or for localized androgen delivery for lagging muscle groups.

it is important to note that these products are more along the lines of site selective rather than site specific.

[musclemidget]

BC, do you think that a a combination of usnic acid and yohimbe hcl transdermal would be a good spot application fat loss gel?

[Big Cat]

There is so much potential, and so many good combinations. Yes, I do think that would be effective. Either way you'll get the best bang for your buck following these criteria :

1.Find drugs that are effective in the lowest doses
2.Find drugs that are synergistic
3.If at all possible, it helps if they dissolve well in benzyl alcohol. But most organic products do.

These criteria will allow maximum efficacy once saturation is reached.

[musclemidget]

well i know that yohimbe works well as a transdermal and i noticed that a few spray on fatlossproducts are out that have usnic acid in them, im just not sure how they are made and would like some assurance before i go out and spend alot of money trying to make a transdermal that wont work.

also, where can i get the benzyl alcohol, acetone and isopropanol that you say to use? local drug store?

[Big Cat]

yeps, any drug store carries them. And they don't cost all that much either. The benzyl acts as a carrier for organic compounds, all the fat loss aids discussed are organic compounds, so most anything will work. As long as the product exerts its effects on the fat cell directly, since it is delivered topically, it should have at least some effect.

[musclemidget]

im just wondering about the UA working as a transdermal. as i already said i know its in a few products on there, but that doesnt mean it works worth a ****. i dont feel like wasting perfectly good UA on something that wont work, so do you think itd have a good thermogenic effect in the application area?

also, would any spray bottle pretty much work to apply?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by musclemidget
im just wondering about the UA working as a transdermal. as i already said i know its in a few products on there, but that doesnt mean it works worth a ****. i dont feel like wasting perfectly good UA on something that wont work, so do you think itd have a good thermogenic effect in the application area?

UA I believe works through uncoupling. SAT isn't particularly rich in metabolically active cells, so I doubt it would be the best product you can choose, but I think it would make a worthwhile addition nonetheless. I've seen commercial products use much worse, like specific beta3-agonists.


also, would any spray bottle pretty much work to apply?

Yes. Although having one that allows accurate dosing can help you figure out what dose you respond to, and help you cut costs even more.

[musclemidget]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Yes. Although having one that allows accurate dosing can help you figure out what dose you respond to, and help you cut costs even more.

any specific bottle?


ok, so all i need to get the benzyl alcohol, acetone, isopropanol, some yohimbe hcl powder (ill use the UA orally) and a spray bottle.

[Big Cat]

yes, and some DMSO for pretreatment would go a long way as well, since your skin becomes less permeable with each treatment, and pretreatment with DMSO would delay this and insure greater delivery across the skin.

[musclemidget]

alright peter, thanks for all the advice, i really appreciate it. i only have a few more, i promise :).

what is DMSO and where can i get it? (drugstore also?)

are there any storing instructions once a topical is made (i.e. refrigerate, room temp, etc)?

heres what i think ill mix up to constitue a 4 fl. ounce/125 mL topical, critique it if you dont mind:

60 mL benzyl alcohol
4g yohimbe
34 mL isoproponal
28 mL acetone

anything else that you think would be benefical? colues forskolin maybe? maybe even 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dhea like absolved has?

i think i did the math right, but im not sure. i figure ill do the math w/the smaller numbers and simply double or triple them for larger doses.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by musclemidget
alright peter, thanks for all the advice, i really appreciate it. i only have a few more, i promise :).

what is DMSO and where can i get it? (drugstore also?)

Dimethyl Sulfoxide. Its one of the strongest and the most often used skin permeation enhancer around. Its been used for ages on the illicit circuit to transdermally deliver trenbolone. But apparently the stuff is perfectly legal since Patrick Arnold used it in Skulpt. More specific info is covered in the first post above. So you should be able to get it at a drug store.


are there any storing instructions once a topical is made (i.e. refrigerate, room temp, etc)?

Make sure the bottle closes well, don't expose to light or keep in a non-transparent or brown glass bottle, don't store at very high temperatures. Other than that it should be fine. The biggest problem is the volatility, so as long as you close it well and keep it away from hot or bright places it should store quite well.


heres what i think ill mix up to constitue a 4 fl. ounce/125 mL topical, critique it if you dont mind:

60 mL benzyl alcohol
4g yohimbe
34 mL isoproponal
28 mL acetone

I'd just use the instructions as above. Drop the powder in, add benzyl until completely dissolved, mix up some 50/50 acetone and isopropanol in another bottle and then add that mixture until you get the desired concentration.


[b]anything else that you think would be benefical? colues forskolin maybe? maybe even 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dhea like absolved has?

So many things. DHEA is a better option than 7-oxo-DHEA.

[musclemidget]

Originally posted by Big Cat

I'd just use the instructions as above. Drop the powder in, add benzyl until completely dissolved, mix up some 50/50 acetone and isopropanol in another bottle and then add that mixture until you get the desired concentration.

the instructions above said mix 5 parts isoproponal and 4 parts acetone to get the desired delivery per spray. thats what i was going w/.


Originally posted by Big Cat
[b]
Take the product you wish to deliver, then add benzyl alcohol until it is entirely dissolved, even a few drops more (adequate benzyl for product). Then add a mixture of 4 parts acetone and 5 parts isopropanol, until you get the volume that gives you the desired concentration of drug per ml, and then apply as many ml as necessary to the site of application, twice daily.

[Dai Kaioushin]

60 mL benzyl alcohol
34 mL isoproponal
28 mL acetone



Would this carrier be effective with 1T (similar to sytenchance) ?

[Big Cat]

Sytenhance uses the same formulation that was critiqued above, so it would work better than sytenhance. Provided sytenhance works at all of course, since muscle is a tissue located deeper than subcutaneous fat and with great variability from person to person and muscle to muscle.

This is already a serious improvement on the sytenhance formula, and i'm currently testing even far improved delivery systems, and I still wouldn't dream of calling a product uniformly fit to locally enhance muscle growth since it would work for one person, one muscle and might not work for another person and another muscle. Why do you think sytenhance was released by another company and not avant ?

[Dai Kaioushin]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Why do you think sytenhance was released by another company and not avant ?

Why do you ask me if I haven't asked this so far? Or wasn't it addressed direct to me?

Anyway thank you for the reply.



Daniel

[EAE]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Why do you think sytenhance was released by another company and not avant ?
I think Avant has dropped all their androgen containing products and have sold the formulas to Mike. They do sell "Gel #3" though, which is is Sytenhance minus the hormones.

[EAE]

Originally posted by Dai Kaioushin
Why do you ask me if I haven't asked this so far? Or wasn't it addressed direct to me?
Anyway thank you for the reply.
Daniel
I think it was just meant as one of those things that make you go "hmmmm."

[musclemidget]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Take the product you wish to deliver, then add benzyl alcohol until it is entirely dissolved, even a few drops more (adequate benzyl for product). Then add a mixture of 4 parts acetone and 5 parts isopropanol, until you get the volume that gives you the desired concentration of drug per ml, and then apply as many ml as necessary to the site of application, twice daily.


Originally posted by Big Cat
I'd just use the instructions as above. Drop the powder in, add benzyl until completely dissolved, mix up some 50/50 acetone and isopropanol in another bottle and then add that mixture until you get the desired concentration.


so which is it peter, 5 parts to 5 parts or 4 parts to 5 parts?



Originally posted by Big Cat

So many things. DHEA is a better option than 7-oxo-DHEA. [/B]

as a fat loss agent?

[Corbint]

So, a quick google for DMSO yields a site that sells a DMSO in 1lb tubs, and also roll-on types... But this paragraph is interesting :

"DMSO 99% purity. DMSO (Diamethyl Sulfoxide) is a solvent that has many uses and purposes. It is derived from wood pulp. It is a natural substance and is sold as a solvent. It is not sold for medicinal purposes! DMSO has many uses throughout the world."

NOT FOR MEDICINAL PURPOSES!

Wonder why.... Am I the only one that is worried by this?

[musclemidget]

Originally posted by Corbint

NOT FOR MEDICINAL PURPOSES!

Wonder why.... Am I the only one that is worried by this?

first, were using it merely to enhance skim permeability, not cure any disease.

second, youre talking to a bunch of bb'ers, we dont really care about something's intended use, but moreover its potential use. hell, half the guys on the boards take stuff meant to treat women's breast cancer (nolva), bull testosterone, and i myself have taken bird antibiotic pills in order to get some usnic acid.

so to answer, your question, you probably are.
p.s. i really wasnt trying to be a jerk, just merely explaining the lack of regard most of us have for ourselves.

[Corbint]

;-) good response... i found some more info on www.dmso.org, detailing that better permeation is achieved at a 70% to 90% pure DMSO compound, anything that has a higher purity doesnt work as good. interesting.... i can see it now, the next series of penis growth creams using DMSO to get nutrients into the wang!

bird pills, WTF!!!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by musclemidget
so which is it peter, 5 parts to 5 parts or 4 parts to 5 parts?

I don't think it will make a real difference, but it is indeed 4:5. I stated it as 1:1 to simplify. The point I was making was that you can't determine the amount of either before you make it, it all depends on the amount of benzyl you will need for a given amount of product, then you top it of with the acetone/isoprop mixture.



as a fat loss agent?

No, for basting turkeys :) yes, as a fat loss agent.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Corbint
So, a quick google for DMSO yields a site that sells a DMSO in 1lb tubs, and also roll-on types... But this paragraph is interesting :

"DMSO 99% purity. DMSO (Diamethyl Sulfoxide) is a solvent that has many uses and purposes. It is derived from wood pulp. It is a natural substance and is sold as a solvent. It is not sold for medicinal purposes! DMSO has many uses throughout the world."

NOT FOR MEDICINAL PURPOSES!

Wonder why.... Am I the only one that is worried by this?

It will work better than other products as is, I'm just adding the part on DMSO to make it absolutely worth your buck. Its been used for transdermal delivery since ages. It does indeed have some downsides including severe irritation if you apply too much or for too long, and it breaks down into sulfides that make your breath smell like you drank from the toiletbowl. It still remains the gold standard for percutaneous penetration enhancement.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Corbint
;-) good response... i found some more info on www.dmso.org, detailing that better permeation is achieved at a 70% to 90% pure DMSO compound, anything that has a higher purity doesnt work as good. interesting.... i can see it now, the next series of penis growth creams using DMSO to get nutrients into the wang!


The numbers vary depending on the compound delivered. 50-90% DMSO is the figure generally given, but for some efficacy declines after 90, for others it keeps increasing. Likewise, some compounds need at least 60%.

All these numbers refer to using DMSO as the solvent however. The study I cited refers to assymetric use, applying the DMSO before applying the product. The same level of penetration can be achieved that way with a lot less product.

[musclemidget]

ok i think im gonna buy all the **** and then try to throw a fatloss gel together. if and when i do, ill make a thread.

BC, would this delivery system work for hormones also? i want to make a 4derm and an androstenetrione to take w/my next ph cycle.

[x_muscle]

Originally posted by Big Cat




So many things. DHEA is a better option than 7-oxo-DHEA. [/B]



i think 7-keto is way better than DHEA

7-keto have thermogenic properties, and it induces an increased proton leak ( for people who dosent know what that mean thats how DNP works).

here is a study:


The effects of the ergosteroid 7-oxo-dehydroepiandrosterone on mitochondrial membrane potential: possible relationship to thermogenesis.

Bobyleva V, Bellei M, Kneer N, Lardy H.

Dipartimento di Scienze Biomediche, Universita di Modena, Italy.

Administered 3 beta-hydroxyandrost-5-ene-7,17-dione (7-oxo-DHEA) is more effective than 3 beta-hydroxyandrost-5-en-7-one (DHEA) as an inducer of liver mitochondrial sn-glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase and cytosolic malic enzyme in rats. Like DHEA, the 7-oxo metabolite enhances liver catalase, fatty acylCoA oxidase, cytosolic sn-glycerol-3-phosphate dehydrogenase, mitochondrial substrate oxidation rate, and the reconstructed sn-glycerol 3-phosphate shuttle. The mitochondrial adenine nucleotide carrier is diminished by thyroidectomy and is restored to normal activity by administering 7-oxo-DHEA. The relationship between respiratory rate and proton motive force across the mitochondrial membrane was measured in the nonphosphorylating state. When treated with increasing concentrations of respiratory inhibitors liver mitochondria from rats treated with 7-oxo-DHEA or thyroid hormones show a more rapid decline of membrane potential than do normal liver mitochondria. Thus 7-oxo-DHEA induces an increased proton leak or slip as has been reported for the thyroid hormone by M.D. Brand [(1990) Biochem. Biophys. Acta 1018, 128-133]. This process may contribute to the enhanced thermogenesis caused by ergosteroids as well as by thyroid hormones

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...st_uids=9143361

[musclemidget]

so your saying that 7-keto is an oxidative uncoupler?

[Big Cat]

In the only comparative study I could find, DHEA reduces differentiation of adipocytes, increases expression of uncpoupling proteins and thermogenisis and reduced fatty acid content in fat cells, in contrast to 7-oxo which increased fatty acid content, had no effect on differentiation, and in comparison showed no thermogenic capacity.

Whatever else your criteria, this is the only comparative study. The circumstances could most definitely play a role, but even then 7-oxo should have exhibited some lipolytic potential, which it did not. (Gomez et al, 2002 ----> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11969408&dopt=Abstract)

The only possible objection, as I think Spook raised in some other thread, was that it is in vitro, which means it may not be looking at the central effects of the compounds. However, since we are discussing the local application the central effects are entirely irrelevant here.

Moreover 7-oxo is a more potent anti-glucocorticoid than DHEA, which has a negative impact on local fat loss in subcutaneous areas. subQ areas are the ONLY areas you can reach via topical administration ...

Your study on the other hand adresses hepatic effects. As effective as I believe this system is, i don't see you locally delivering a compound to your liver percutaneaously, do you ?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by musclemidget
ok i think im gonna buy all the **** and then try to throw a fatloss gel together. if and when i do, ill make a thread.

BC, would this delivery system work for hormones also? i want to make a 4derm and an androstenetrione to take w/my next ph cycle.

You mean for systemic delivery ? You would do wiser to just use an ethanol base then use several penetration enhancers, since you are not targeting local delivery. Would seem contradictory to use a TPDS then.

[musclemidget]

ok well ill stick to the fat loss gel for the moment. any plans on posting a thread on homebrewing your own transdermal ph's?

[Big Cat]

Most definitely, but not for a while, I'm actually still coming up with new research on it.

[musclemidget]

well id be more than happy to help you if you need some help pulling up some research on it. lemme know if there is anything i can do for you.

[Spook]

However, since we are discussing the local application the central effects are entirely irrelevant here.

There is a problem with this reasoning. There are more than two types of fat (SAT vs. VAT). there is also deep layer SAT that most men have in abundance and it behaves somewhere inbetween SAT and VAT. Women on the other hand have allmost no deep layer SAT. This and conective tissue differences is one reason womens fat feels different than a mans.

So in my mind the whole cortisol is lipolytic thing is dependent on dose and other factors. In women it surely is but not necesarily so in men.

Nice thead BTW.

[Big Cat]

Thank you very much, that means a lot coming from you.

Is there anything more than circumstancial evidence to suggest that cortisol is anything other than lipolytic in deep layer SAT ? If cortisol was to promote fat gain in deep layer SAT then we would see an increase in SAT uniformly across the body under the influence of cortisol, which is clearly not the case. We only see an increase in central VAT.

A reduced activity in deep layer SAT would also really not concern me a great deal, since it is generally more responsive to lipolytic signals that superficial SAT (Monzon et al. 2002)

[Spook]

s there anything more than circumstancial evidence to suggest that cortisol is anything other than lipolytic in deep layer SAT ? If cortisol was to promote fat gain in deep layer SAT then we would see an increase in SAT uniformly across the body under the influence of cortisol, which is clearly not the case. We only see an increase in central VAT.


Yes its lipolytic in deep layer sat but it also encourages pre-adipocyte recrutment there. So wether thats optimal depends on ones body type.

I agree its not something thats teribly important in this case. I was mearly pointing out that there was a flaw in your reasoning not your ultimatnt conclusion.

[lbash]

Big Cat what do u think of this homemade carrier for 4ad or nordiol

30% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL( ISO )
15% ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE( IPM )
15% ISOPROPYL PALMITATE( IPP )
15% d-lemonene
15% OLEIC ACID( OA )
10% PROPYLENE GLYCOL( PG )

and DMSO to pretreat

[sicosico]

BC

im just curious do u think local delivery works with PGF2a (prostaglandin) for fat loss and local muscle growth!

[Big Cat]

How odd that you mention that. I was talking to one of my athletes that said he had some left, and doesn't want to use it due to to much pain, and was thinking of trying just that. PGF2A is a relatively stable organic molecule, so I think it would help. Would work for muscle growth as well I think.

i'll let you know what I come up with.

Conversely I was also thinking it could be modulated to a lesser extent in supplementation. Both alpha1 and beta-adrenergic stimulation promote the transcription factor CREB, which upregulates expression of COX enzymes. Adding arachidonic acid could result in an increase in prostaglandins. PGI2 for sure, possibly PGF2.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by lbash
Big Cat what do u think of this homemade carrier for 4ad or nordiol

30% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL( ISO )
15% ISOPROPYL MYRISTRATE( IPM )
15% ISOPROPYL PALMITATE( IPP )
15% d-lemonene
15% OLEIC ACID( OA )
10% PROPYLENE GLYCOL( PG )

and DMSO to pretreat

I would use 63% ethanol and 20% PG as a base. Then there are a number of other additions that could be made. IPM, IPP and Oleic Acid are great additions, but you did seem to opt for those tha require a very large volume. 2-3% azone for instance would be a good addition. 0.1 to 1% DCMS and so on. I have a million ideas, but I don't really want to discuss it all until I can come to a uniform recommendation.

Its not an easy thing to test, due to the inherent time-release nature you need a whole days worth of urine samples for an acurate analysis. Not many people that would voluntarily piss in a bottle for a whole day.

So far I'm down to a mixture of no less than 12 compounds.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Spook
Yes its lipolytic in deep layer sat but it also encourages pre-adipocyte recrutment there. So wether thats optimal depends on ones body type.

I agree its not something thats teribly important in this case. I was mearly pointing out that there was a flaw in your reasoning not your ultimatnt conclusion.

Its something to keep an eye on. Excess adipocyte recruitment can lead to excess weight gain upon recommencing bulking and would caution one to start bulking slowly after a diet of this nature.

[lbash]

big cat.......is there a particular type of ethanol u recommend as a base?

would this be the so called grain alcohol that is sometimes used for drinking in the united states?

tks

[Big Cat]

Drinking alcohol is almost always ethanol. However, if it is sold for that purpose, it won't be that pure. But it should work. However, for a nickle and a dime, a local pharmacy should be able to set you up with much higher quality ethanol.

[lbash]

i am going to going with the 63% ethanol and 20% PG as a base.....

Does this sound like the quality of ethanol i should purchase?

"Alcohol, Denatured, Reagent, ACS
Alcohol, Denatured
This material is a denatured form on ethanol consisting of about 5 volumes of isopropyl alcohol and about 95 volumes of formula 3-A specially denatured alcohol. "

[Big Cat]

Yes, what you have would be a 95% ethanol. I generally use 97% but that's more expensive.

[lbash]

which one of these PG's would u recommend?

SC-P1442 Propylene Glycol Alginate, High Viscosity
SC-P1441 Propylene Glycol Alginate, Low Viscosity
SC-P1446 Propylene Glycol Alginate, Low Viscosity, FCC
SC-P1444 Propylene Glycol Alginate, NF
SC-P1743 Propylene Glycol Diacetate
SC-P1438 Propylene Glycol Methyl Ether
SC-P1747 Propylene Glycol Monostearate, NF
SC-P1456 Propylene Glycol, FCC
SC-P1440 Propylene Glycol, Reagent, ACS
SC-PR130 Propylene Glycol, USP

tks again

[lbash]

which one of these PG's would u recommend?

SC-P1442 Propylene Glycol Alginate, High Viscosity
SC-P1441 Propylene Glycol Alginate, Low Viscosity
SC-P1446 Propylene Glycol Alginate, Low Viscosity, FCC
SC-P1444 Propylene Glycol Alginate, NF
SC-P1743 Propylene Glycol Diacetate
SC-P1438 Propylene Glycol Methyl Ether
SC-P1747 Propylene Glycol Monostearate, NF
SC-P1456 Propylene Glycol, FCC
SC-P1440 Propylene Glycol, Reagent, ACS
SC-PR130 Propylene Glycol, USP

tks again

[Big Cat]

1440

[Get Ripped]

ok this seems extremely interesting to me, especially now that summer is coming and I want to get as shredded as possible. What I have a question about is where do you guys get your yohimbe powder from and how much it costs. I found a site www.viable-herbal.com which sells many herbs and supplements in powdered form in half pound increments. They have yohimbe bark standardized to 2% yohimbine, a half pound of it goes for $64.09. First off I know that a half pound is a ton of the stuff since I'm trying to just make some topical solution. I'm just curious if there is anywhere I can get less of it. The price does not bother me as I will pay whatever for something as long as I know it works. Thanks. And thank you Big Cat for always being on top of new developments in the supplement world.

[musclemidget]

check your PM's.

[LJ57]

Great thread. I want to make a topical using yohimbine hci and citrus aurantium (synephrine) Do you know what the best amounts to use would be for this?

[Get Ripped]

thanks musclemidget for that pm...now a couple of questions i've never made any topicals myself before, how do i measure quantities in milliliters, do I need graduated cyllinders for this, second i have a couple bottles of xenadrine with ephedrine that I am currently using to help me get that last little bit off, is it safe to use yohimbine along with the ephedrine, and last how much is a recommended dose, I'm 6'6 and weigh around 230-235, o and 1 more if I put it in a spray bottle how do I know how much I'm using.

[Big Cat]

Well since none of this really costs much you can make like half a liter or a liter at once, that means it doesn't matter if you miss by a couple of ml. In that case you can use most anything used to measure fluids. You could use a syringe, but measuring 10 ml at a time if you are making a decent quantity of anything doesn't seem like something i would do. I have specific pipets to do all this stuff with, since not even a graduated cillinder is accurate enough if I have to do something analytically.

If you are using either the yohimbine or the ephedrine topically, or both, then yes you can combine them. Even if you use both orally you can combine them pretty well, but its something that is not normally recommended without a medical check-up first to see if you have any cardiovascular problems. But then again, you should never use any stimulant systemically without a check-up.

Normally concentrations are 25 to 50 mg/ml for yohimbine, and given the nature of the delivery, I'd use a similar amount for things that dissolve in the benzyl at a similar rate. The benzyl acts as a universal carrier for organic compounds, so all compounds should be delivered in an equal amount. Usually you'd apply 6 ml or something, twice a day. My current sprays only require 2-3 at that dosing so I use smaller concentrations in order to cover a larger area.

If you have an accurate spray bottle you can fill it with water first and count the amount of sprays, do the math and calculate how many ml per spray you get. Of course, such things are hard to come by. You can use a syringe and then drop it on your skin and smear it open a bit.

[upINtheLBC]

bc, in the military acetone is considered a controlled substance because of it causing liver cancer.

[Big Cat]

Acetone is used in diagnosis and treatment of various cancers, so that sounds like a figment of someone's imagination.

if you drink a glass of acetone, bad **** will probably happen to your liver and various other organs. Then again, to drink a glass of acetone you'd have to be one dumb ****. Topically applied acetone quickly evaporates, leaving a small amount in the skin and none or next to none in underlying tissues, much less the blood. In short, their isn't even any way this stuff can reach your liver, if that is what you are concerned about.

If topical acetone caused any long-term damage at all, then most of my fellow lab-workers would have some serious complaints, since we use acetone for drying material on a daily basis.

[upINtheLBC]

after some more research, (instead of listening to my other worker :( ) you are correct. It is considered a controlled substance because it is considered highly flammable. Sorry for the stupid post :(

[BIONIC MAN]

question would EMU oil help products penetrate the skin with no side effects.

[almcg]

Big cat,
I've been reading your stuff for years. I love reading info from someone I can trust and who know's what the hell he's taking about. Thanks so much for your input.
Would this procedure work for an idiot wanting to try topical application of anavar or primo or deca, for example.... that is if someone wanted to be so stupid to try such a thing (wink, wink, nod, nod), especially if sharp, thin spikey things were extremely aversive to this idiot? Would it be worth the effort and would the result be better than the often quoted 30 - 60% substance delivery you see stated so often?
Thanks.... your massive brain power is much appreciated.
Alan m

[Get Ripped]

ok here's the thing where do you guys get your benzyl alcohol and acetone from, I went to the drug store (Genovese, that is if Genovese is considered a drug store) and they didn't have them. I looked online and tried to find sites that sell them but I found one that only sells to science teachers for labs and things of that sort. Any help is appreciated on this one as I really want to make this fat loss topical, being that summer is pretty much here and I have all the ingredients I need but these two. Thanks.

[Vanilla Thunder]

Originally posted by almcg
Big cat,
I've been reading your stuff for years. I love reading info from someone I can trust and who know's what the hell he's taking about. Thanks so much for your input.
Would this procedure work for an idiot wanting to try topical application of anavar or primo or deca, for example.... that is if someone wanted to be so stupid to try such a thing (wink, wink, nod, nod), especially if sharp, thin spikey things were extremely aversive to this idiot? Would it be worth the effort and would the result be better than the often quoted 30 - 60% substance delivery you see stated so often?
Thanks.... your massive brain power is much appreciated.
Alan m

There would be no reason to. If "someone" was so against sticking themselves, they shouldn't be taking steroids. Not to mention paying 3 times as much for a cycle to get the same active amounts. All in all a dumb idea. Anavar is an oral anyway; and a mild one at that, which gives solid keepable strength and muscle gains. If you don't like needles do an anavar cycle around 40-50 mg /day. Up the protein and creatine...train your ass off.

**There is some thread on the steroid board where some guy wants to try PEG 400 or something. Thinks it'll get good delivery...but anyway you look at it, it's stupid. Buying, and having the substances is illegal, just freakin stick yourself in the butt, it's not that bad.

[LHDan]

Ok, a couple quick questions, one site I found says isopropanol is just isopropal alcohol, if so that is easy to find.
Acetone can be found with the nail polish removers.
And I found a site on the net that sells Benzyl Alcohol and DSMO.
Anyone think about combining yohimbe-hcl with the 7-keto DHEA? If both are good, wouldn't combining then be better. Like chocolate and peanutbutter?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by LHDan
Ok, a couple quick questions, one site I found says isopropanol is just isopropal alcohol, if so that is easy to find.
Acetone can be found with the nail polish removers.
And I found a site on the net that sells Benzyl Alcohol and DSMO.
Anyone think about combining yohimbe-hcl with the 7-keto DHEA? If both are good, wouldn't combining then be better. Like chocolate and peanutbutter?

7-keto may have an adverse effect. It reduces cortisol formation, but in subcutaneous adipose tissue, cortisol is a positive factor in reducing fat. Cortisol is only a negative factor in VAT. Needless to say you will not reach VAT tissue using a transdermal.

[LHDan]

Using ephedra was mentioned, would that actually work? I thought ephedra basically speeds up your metabolism in order to burn fat. If this would be a good adition (since I know lipoderm ultra uses synephrine) would ephedra HCL work too?

[Big Cat]

Yes, although if you have no adverse reactions to stimulants, its best to use ephedra systemically, since it has potent appetite reducing and fatty acid oxidation stimulating activity as well. If you add something like synephrine or ephedrine (if for instance you are indeed intolerant of systemic stimulants) then also add some type of methyl-xanthine like caffeine, aminophylline or theophylline. Alpha1-activity promotes the activity of PDE's which reduces lipolytic activity because of excess adenosine outflow.

[notwerby]

What are peoples thoughts on mixing lipoderm and absolved? I am currently using absolved, but upon reading this, i was wondering what would happen if i just mixed in some yohimbe HCL powder into each dose of Absolved (in the right proportions of course). Would this be effective at all?

[LHDan]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Yes, its best to use ephedra systemically

Sorry, but I'm not sure I understood you. Are you saying it's best to use it in pill form? Or, pill form is best but it can work in a transdermal as well?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by notwerby
What are peoples thoughts on mixing lipoderm and absolved? I am currently using absolved, but upon reading this, i was wondering what would happen if i just mixed in some yohimbe HCL powder into each dose of Absolved (in the right proportions of course). Would this be effective at all?

My thoughts are you'd be wasting money either way.

But yes, its perfectly possible. Just add benzyl alcohol to your yohimbine until dissolved, then add the lot to the ab-solved.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by LHDan
Sorry, but I'm not sure I understood you. Are you saying it's best to use it in pill form? Or, pill form is best but it can work in a transdermal as well?

The latter. It will work in this form, but you'd be paying more for less effect than when using it orally. Still a good solution though if you have low tolerance for stimulants.

[LHDan]

Thanks Big Cat, I may just stick with the yohimbe first, then try a batch with the ephedra to see if there is any difference.

[LJ57]

I went to Walgreens and they only had isopropyl and ethyl alcohol. Does anyone know of any stores that sell the benzyl alcohol?

[LJ57]

One other question and this may be really stupid, but I don't know alot about using transdermals. I have a bottle of Twinlab Ultimate Diet Fuel. I couldn't take it because the ephedra in it made me severely nervous. Could I use the ingredients in the capsules to make a transdermal. I know some would be useless, but it does contain ephedra, tyrosine, caffeine, coleus, 7-keto dhea, synephrine, and cayenne which could be effective topically. Could this work?

[x_muscle]

BC do u think using usnic acid in local delivery topical a good idea?

[Big Cat]

This was discussed on the first page of this thread.

[Par Deuxxx]

Originally posted by notwerby
What are peoples thoughts on mixing lipoderm and absolved? I am currently using absolved, but upon reading this, i was wondering what would happen if i just mixed in some yohimbe HCL powder into each dose of Absolved (in the right proportions of course). Would this be effective at all?

Don't.

Use each one every other day.

[Par Deuxxx]

Originally posted by Big Cat
My thoughts are you'd be wasting money either way.

But yes, its perfectly possible. Just add benzyl alcohol to your yohimbine until dissolved, then add the lot to the ab-solved.

So, when are you going to release your miracle formula that tops the one I designed 4 years ago that was my very first supplement design?

[damned.]

Originally posted by Big Cat
7-keto may have an adverse effect. It reduces cortisol formation, but in subcutaneous adipose tissue, cortisol is a positive factor in reducing fat. Cortisol is only a negative factor in VAT. Needless to say you will not reach VAT tissue using a transdermal.

Is 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dhea the same thing as 7 Keto? If so, are you saying that absolved will casue fat storage instead of loss?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Par Deuxxx
So, when are you going to release your miracle formula that tops the one I designed 4 years ago that was my very first supplement design?

Covering your ass already ? You may have designed it 4 years ago, but you used the same ****ty carrier for Lipo Ultra and ODB, which were released just a few months ago, for ab-solved, and for sytenhance. Moreover, you royally ****ed up with your active ingredients in Lipo ultra and ODB. I'd be happy to give a you a list of reasons why.

About the formula, patience, my good man. When it is released, would you be willing to fork over a few Lipo ODB's to have a comparison done by an independent body ?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Grant D
Is 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dhea the same thing as 7 Keto? If so, are you saying that absolved will casue fat storage instead of loss?

Its hard to cause fat storage on a hypocaloric diet, but it would inhibit fat loss when used in a locally delivered manner. Through topical application you can only reach subQ adipose tissue, where cortisol has a lipolytic function.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Par Deuxxx
Don't.

Use each one every other day.

Might I inquire as to the reason ? Could it possibly be that I was correct that ab-solved is predominantly systemic, and that adding it to a local carrier like Lipo would **** it up ?

[damned.]

I am bulking, not cutting. I thought absolved was local and fl7 was systemic..

BTW, nice bike..

[legalgear]

[i]

[/b]

So many things. DHEA is a better option than 7-oxo-DHEA. [/B]


Damn it Big Cat! You just stole our thunder on our new LipoBurn product. We are using DHEA opposed to 7OXO-DHEA since Seth Roberts found support for it that it is far superior for topical fat loss. Nice post though!

EDog

[Big Cat]

Well, I knew I couldn't be the only one that saw the inherent flaw in these products ...

[legalgear]

The abstract was quite long and I really didn't read it thoroughly, but Seth seemed to be quite excited about DHEA vs. 7KetoDHEA. Was telling Pogue about it and he forwarded me this thread. You bastard! ;)

We altered our dermal formula slightly and should have the product out shortly. Interesting thread for sure.

EDog

[Big Cat]

Will be very interested to see if you guys do a better job than avantlabs did :)

I read the same study, a direct in vitro comparison of DHEA vs 7-oxo, showing DHEA inhibited proliferation, stimulated thermogenisis and lead to a reduction of adipose fat content, where 7-oxo increased fat content, did not inhibit differentiation and did not promote thermogenisis.

On top of that I found several interesting studies on DHEA showing it can increase UCP's and adipose resistin expression (making the adipose cell resistant to insulin).

[Jedi Master]

Big Cat I love all the correct and positive information you bring to the boards, thanks for all your hard work. And also I think it is funny as hell when you give Par intellectual beatings. When will he learn.

I bet LG's lipoburn will be great, I cant wait to try it.

[Vanilla Thunder]

Originally posted by legalgear

We altered our dermal formula slightly and should have the product out shortly. Interesting thread for sure.

EDog

What has changed / is different in your carrier that addresses the shortcomings mentioned here? Just curious, I don't think I've seen anything about it.

[legalgear]

Quite honestly I didn't catch the entire thread on the carrier. Seth is going to add more of an oil carrier to keep the formulation largely in the fatty tissue. I believe that you will always get some systemic leaking, but fat if I remember correctly isn't terribly vascular anyway, although I could be wrong, just thinking out loud.

E

[Number 5]

Originally posted by legalgear
Damn it Big Cat! You just stole our thunder on our new LipoBurn product. We are using DHEA opposed to 7OXO-DHEA since Seth Roberts found support for it that it is far superior for topical fat loss. Nice post though!

EDog

Actually Par used to recommend this too:


Originally posted by Par Deus
I do agree that regular DHEA would be quite effective locally -- Spook and I have been saying this for quite some time.

It will likely be stronger in some respects (PPAR-gamma antagonism and increased adrenergic mediated lipolysis), but weaker in others (potentiation of thyroid and PPAR-alpha).

But, we cannot sell a topical DHEA, because it is an androgen prohormone.

from: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236417&perpage=30&highlight=fact&pagenumber=2

As I understand Sen. Kennedy wants to add DHEA to the ph-ban list, so what's the time line for your products?

-5

[x_muscle]

Originally posted by Number 5
Actually Par used to recommend this too:



from: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236417&perpage=30&highlight=fact&pagenumber=2

As I understand Sen. Kennedy wants to add DHEA to the ph-ban list, so what's the time line for your products?

-5


huh................7-keto is a prohormone also!!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by legalgear
Quite honestly I didn't catch the entire thread on the carrier. Seth is going to add more of an oil carrier to keep the formulation largely in the fatty tissue. I believe that you will always get some systemic leaking, but fat if I remember correctly isn't terribly vascular anyway, although I could be wrong, just thinking out loud.

E

That could end up backfiring on you, increased lipophillicity could result in greater systemic uptake, since it will be retained in the skin's lipid layer and slowly seep into the system. DHEA is already very lipophillic to begin with. Increased oil in the carrier will also offer the same problem adressed here with occlusion, and limit evaporation of the first phase.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Number 5
[B]Actually Par used to recommend this too:

Funny how he only recommended it after I brought it up huh ?


[b]As I understand Sen. Kennedy wants to add DHEA to the ph-ban list, so what's the time line for your products?


Actually I have it on good authority that it is likely to escape the ban.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by x_muscle
huh................7-keto is a prohormone also!!

Well, yes and no. It is likely a prohormone, but not much evidence to actually prove it. As previously stated in this thread it does lower estrogen and testosterone though, so odds are if the ban includes DHEA that it will include 7-oxo as well.

[x_muscle]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Well, yes and no. It is likely a prohormone, but not much evidence to actually prove it. As previously stated in this thread it does lower estrogen and testosterone though, so odds are if the ban includes DHEA that it will include 7-oxo as well.

DHEA is the only substance that my be saved from the ban.

by the way what do you think about using arginine in local transdermal delivery to increase NO retention in a certain muscle?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by x_muscle
DHEA is the only substance that my be saved from the ban.

by the way what do you think about using arginine in local transdermal delivery to increase NO retention in a certain muscle?

Amino acids are very, very hard to deliver locally. Their zwitter-ionic structure makes it increasingly hard to penetrate the skin and prevents micellar formation with benzyl in aqueous surrounding, resulting in poor delivery and even poorer local delivery. On top of that, the first structure under the skin is fat tissue, where NO may have an adverse effect. Not that a little extra fat is that detrimental, but it will continue to make delivery area's lower than that fat more difficult.

It's not impossible, I assume with a little tweaking anything is possible, but I question if the use would justify it.

[Brimstone]

Great thread! So much information..
I've been trolling the forums for quite a while and am constantly amazed at the wealth of information Big Cat and others give away for free on a daily basis. Very cool of you imho. :)
Anyway..
I was planning on buying Yohimiburn to help get rid of some of this stubborn flab thats made its home on my chest and sides..
Even when I cut down low, there it is..mocking me :(
Now I'm planning on making my own instead, thanks to this awsome thread.
Just had a few questions.
I was just wondering if anyone can recomend a good supplier of Yohomide powder?
And the only DHEA I can find is in capsule form, which is like 90% rice starch filler.. is this available in a purer/powdered form, or is crushing up the caps, filler and all, acceptable?
and, Last question,
What would you recomend as a good rato of DHEA to Yohim?
I've read the whole thread, trying to find this out before asking, and couldnt. Sorry if it was there and I missed it.

Thanks again.

[damned.]

7 keto lowers testosterone?

[Seth Roberts]

Didn't say that I wanted to add oil, but instead make it more lipophillic. Our current formula is amphiphillic, however, if you assume evaporation of the alcohol component, then it leans towards hydrophillicity. I appreciate your post, very thorough. I am not a big fan of DMSO, it is not as innocuous as everyone believes. It causes renal suppression which appears to be cumulative with repeat dosing. It also causes other problems. It has been used for a long time, but it isn't used in pharmaceutical preparations -- there is a reason. Also, I would be concerned with using acetone. Acetone is extremely drying to the skin (even more so than isopropyl alcohol) so I'm not sure I would want to use it for several applications a day repeatedly. That is one of the greatest problems, the things that work the best are usually also harmful in some respect. We have a formulation right now that works pretty well but is a compromise between safety and efficacy. Maybe a transdermal carrier containg benzyl alcohol, dmso, acetone, IPA and water would be the best transdermal carrier -- but at what cost to the health of the individual? I am intrigued, however, by the use of benzyl alchol and we will be exploring it for use in our formulation.
Thanks for the informative post,
Seth

[Big Cat]

acetone has a drying effect on the skin, but that is however very quickly reversed. I get acetone on my skin several times a day, and my skin is perfectly smooth. Effect usually lasts no longer than an hour.

DMSO is not the best of products out there, I most certainly agree. However it is the only type of compound that seems capable of reversing the increased resistance to penetration caused by each application, making it virtually a necessity if you want your effects to continue beyond two weeks.

Benzyl is definitely the way to go, although I have had success with Phosphatidylycholine consiting of either arachidonic acid or of linoleic acid as an alternative as well. It possess similar properties to the benzyl. I explored the pathway mainly because these PC's also promote penetration, but the effect was still slightly less than with benzyl.

There is no cost to the health of the individual here, one simply has to be able to put up with some sides like skin irritation and such for success with these things. There are no health concerns associated with the DMSO in this instance either, the assymetrical model allows for a very small quantity to be used, and since it has amphiphillic properties its systemic uptake is extremely limited, posing no real threat to the kidneys if that was what you were concerned about. Through working with athletes I can also safely say that quite liberal use of DMSO for 12+ weeks causes no real problems except rubor on site of application and some foul breath. But I'm also not too fond of it. Hence the assymetrical model.

[x_muscle]

BC do u have a formula for systematic trandermal deliver?

[damned.]

Originally posted by Grant D
7 keto lowers testosterone?


bump???

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by x_muscle
BC do u have a formula for systematic trandermal deliver?

I have several, but only on paper, I haven't had a chance to comparatively test them.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Grant D
bump???

Apparently.

[MYNAMEIZGREG]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Apparently.

By a significant amount?

[Big Cat]

only by 10 odd percent I think dio said, and that is if it all got delivered systemically in the amounts used in that study. I'm guessing with ab-solved slightly less and with a decent local carrier even less. I also don't see a real concern for this, a lot of diet aids have a tendency to lower testosterone or testosterone action slightly.

[Seth Roberts]

Did the athletes you worked with undergo renal function studies before and after? Obviously dose and duration are the most important factors in the use of any toxic compound, however, I have personally done renal function studies on the acute and chronic effects of DMSO. For that reason, we no longer use DMSO in formulations of discovery compounds. Again, if used at a low enough dose for a short period of time, maybe it is ok. I personally have seen the results of using it in drug development, so I don't like it very much. There are plenty of pharmaceutical transdermal preps out there that do not use dmso or acetone and have passed the rigid safety testing of pharmaceuticals and are still effective. You are correct that it is the most effective carier out there and I don't mean to argue with you because you have obviously done a lot of great work here. We just disagree on a few points.
Seth

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
Did the athletes you worked with undergo renal function studies before and after? Obviously dose and duration are the most important factors in the use of any toxic compound, however, I have personally done renal function studies on the acute and chronic effects of DMSO. For that reason, we no longer use DMSO in formulations of discovery compounds. Again, if used at a low enough dose for a short period of time, maybe it is ok. I personally have seen the results of using it in drug development, so I don't like it very much. There are plenty of pharmaceutical transdermal preps out there that do not use dmso or acetone and have passed the rigid safety testing of pharmaceuticals and are still effective. You are correct that it is the most effective carier out there and I don't mean to argue with you because you have obviously done a lot of great work here. We just disagree on a few points.
Seth

Yes I have. Well to that extent that all athletes undergo blood tests every 3 weeks. Its something I insist on. Perhaps your findings differ from mine due to a larger volume of DMSO, longer duration, or more frequent application ?

I don't think we disagree so much. I think we simply don't see eye to eye on the strength of effects from DMSO and the fact that there are no other unrelated products out there currently that can attenuate the decline in skin permeation with localized delivery. I certainly wouldn't advocate adding DMSO to any of your products, but I do stress the importance of having this information out there, that these products will show diminished returns in 1 to 2 weeks already, and that if they choose they can use DMSO pre-treatment with these products.

This information, I'm sure, will equally apply to your product as well.

[Seth Roberts]

I am very dedicated to constantly improving the products that we have and this can only be done by constantly seeking out more information. Eric and the rest of the LG team have a very similar philosphy so we all welcome this kind of constructive discussion.
Thanks,
Seth

[damned.]

Why no DMSO, it is Relativly Non Toxic, almost completely so..

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Seth Roberts
I am very dedicated to constantly improving the products that we have and this can only be done by constantly seeking out more information. Eric and the rest of the LG team have a very similar philosphy so we all welcome this kind of constructive discussion.


Indeed, its a pity not all in the industry share your vision. It speaks well for you and your company. I look forward to seeing what you come up with and the ensuing discussions.

[Suprcharg]

That was an awsome read. I've ordered the Benzyl alcohol and powdered yohimbe today on the net, and am looking forward to creating my own spray. Thanks tons for the tips!

[Big Cat]

It's only been here a month or two and you have the rest of your life to reap the benefits :D

[pu12en12g]

Big Cat,

Assuming DMSO followed by a Yohimbine HCL topical, when would one want to apply Capsiacin (Capzasin-HP specifically) for maximum effectiveness ? I plan on trying a homebrew towards the end of my current cutting cycle.

Again, thank you for your time and for sharing this information.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by pu12en12g
Big Cat,

Assuming DMSO followed by a Yohimbine HCL topical, when would one want to apply Capsiacin (Capzasin-HP specifically) for maximum effectiveness ? I plan on trying a homebrew towards the end of my current cutting cycle.

Again, thank you for your time and for sharing this information.

One thing you need to know, capsaicin does not function as a lipolytic agent in a yohimbine homebrew. Lipolytic effects of capsaicin are mediated by CGRP and CGRP release is inhibited under pro-beta-adrenergic conditions, such as those caused by yohimbine and other ingredients found in lipolytic gels.

Capsaicin is however useful as a penetration enhancer, and can be used in extremely small quantities with great efficacy. In that regard you would have resolved one of the many problems that Lipoderm had. By making your own product as shown here and adding 0.02 to 0.1% capsaicin (depending on your pain threshold) in the actual mixture, you could greatly enhance the efficacy. So include this percentage in your mixture. Apply DMSO first, then the mixture.

[Corbint]

many people in this thread have mentioned they are buying the required ingredients, but have yet to post results. has anyone succesfully compiled their homebrew topical spray, and what do they think?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Corbint
many people in this thread have mentioned they are buying the required ingredients, but have yet to post results. has anyone succesfully compiled their homebrew topical spray, and what do they think?

Good point, I would be very happy to hear some results on this. Its a very cheap solution, I can't see any reservations against trying it. Especially those using DMSO pretreatment in order to use the product longer. I would be very interested in opinions from people who tried that.

[pu12en12g]

Originally posted by Big Cat
One thing you need to know, capsaicin does not function as a lipolytic agent in a yohimbine homebrew. Lipolytic effects of capsaicin are mediated by CGRP and CGRP release is inhibited under pro-beta-adrenergic conditions, such as those caused by yohimbine and other ingredients found in lipolytic gels.

Capsaicin is however useful as a penetration enhancer, and can be used in extremely small quantities with great efficacy. In that regard you would have resolved one of the many problems that Lipoderm had. By making your own product as shown here and adding 0.02 to 0.1% capsaicin (depending on your pain threshold) in the actual mixture, you could greatly enhance the efficacy. So include this percentage in your mixture. Apply DMSO first, then the mixture.

Wow I wasn't aware of that first part ! Lucky me I have a high pain tolerance, I already tested out the Capzasin-HP on my abs, and I kinda liked the pain hee hee.

So if I wanted the Capzasin-HP to be a "optional" add-on (on certain days) of the topical, then it should be ok to spray on the DMSO, then the Capzasin-HP, and then spray the Yohimbine topical homebrew ?

By the way I will be doing a complete detailed log, with before/after photos and stats.

[Big Cat]

I personally Get a capsaicin solution from the pharmacy (capsaicin dissolved in a single solvent) and then distill it, adding some benzyl until dissolved and adding that, as needed, to my mixture. It's one of three PE's I'm currently working with to increase enhancement without ****ing up local delivery, as is the case with Lipoderm.

If this is not possible, then yes, perhaps apply it right before putting on your homebrew.

[Suprcharg]

I'm still waiting for my stuff to be delivered, of course I don't have a digi cam for before and afters :(

[x_muscle]

from where do you guy get acetone.......i only acetone avilble to me is nail polish lol

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by x_muscle
from where do you guy get acetone.......i only acetone avilble to me is nail polish lol

Drug stores, supermarkets, you name it. If you can't locate it, there is always the internet.

[Get Ripped]

Originally posted by x_muscle
from where do you guy get acetone.......i only acetone avilble to me is nail polish lol

I got mine from home depot, i couldn't find it in drug store, or super market but home depot had it in the paint removal aisle. what i'm curious about is where people get their benzyl alcohol and yohimbine from. i've received both but i'm thinking one or the other is fake because the yohimbine wasn't dissolving (6g yohimbine in over 200 ml benzyl and still no dissolving that's a little strange)

[AcesWired]

Could I get a pm from someone for a source for benzyl alcohol? I haven't really been able to find it anywhere.

[squal]

Hi,

maybe someone could help me, I wanted order lipoderm y and add about 3 g of yohimbine inside, but i see that BIG CAT, know an other way to make a better transdermal fat loss, and cheaper, I live in FRANCE, and the benzy and isopropinol, is finished, i mean i went to the pharmacy and they told me both were used long time ago for preparation, what exactly do i need to do this fat loss?, and how make it exactly?, I know a pharmacy which could make me the product if i give them the exacts dosages.

or how could i make lipoderm better, any suggestions, to have a cheap, strong fat loss , thanks

thanks.

[Big Cat]

If you are going with a yohimbine only product, and you want basically what lipoderm is (6g per 8 oz ? correct me if I'm wrong) but with 3g extra, then you get 9g of yohimbine, add benzyl alcohol until dissolved and then add a 50/50 mix of isopropanol and acetone until you get 8 oz. That's the short version.

I can try and put it in my best French, but you'll have to forgive me if I make any errors.

Si vous voulez seulement le yohimbine comme ingredient active, comme dans Lipoderm Y (6g par 240 ml), mais avec 3g en plus, vous prenez 9g de yohimbine et ajoutez d'alcool benzyl pour completement dissoluer le yohimbine, et appres vous ajoutez une mix 50/50 de aceton et d'alcool isopropyl jusqu'au 240 ml. Ca c'est la solution le plus simple.

[MusclesFlyers]

Hey Big Cat, I've really been looking into making my own transdermal carrier and was wondering if the following ingredients could be combined to make an effective fat loss transdermal:

MAIN INGREDIENTS:

Acetyl-L-Carnitine
Acetyl-L-Tyrosine
Yohimbine HCL
Caffeine Ahyndrous
Synephrine

QESTIONABLE INGREDIENTS:

DMSO
DHEA


I would use the carrier that you mentioned. How does this sound?

[Big Cat]

ALC and ALT are very poor additions, because they will show a much higher affinity for water than for the inside of a benzyl micelle. And if they don't form benzyl micelles they don't get delivered locally. And given their more hydrophillic nature, they may not even get delivered transdermally that well.

Yohimbine is obviously a good addition. Synephrine, although a less likely candidate, should still be well suited for localized delivery, although one can question the benefit of synephrine in direct lipolysis, since as an a1 agonist it only produces very mild lipolysis and it also counteracts lipolysis by increasing PDE expression. A xanthine like caffeine can somewhat counter that, so definitely add a xanthine if you do use synephrine. Caffeine will work, but isn't ideal, there are other xanthines like aminophylline that may be better suited for this type of delivery, if you can get it.

But in general one can say that most of the effect of synephrine comes from its anorectic central effect, and would work better orally.

Also I hope you are not assuming, like some less intelligent individuals, that the caffeine will counter local water increases from yohimbine. Xanthines work diuretically via the kidney, not locally. Nonetheless, xanthines are very potent local fat loss aids.

DMSO has been discussed previously. Adding it in the product in an amount that would work would **** up the product, but we have discussed an assymetrical model, where you apply DMSO several minutes before you apply the product, that is even more efficacious. You can get by with only half the DMSO, which also causes less sides.

DHEA, as discussed earlier, is a very good local fat loss ingredient. But it remains to be seen what dose is effective, because lipophillic compounds are not ideally suited for localized delivery as well, and if very high doses are needed, a substantial amount will be taken up systemically.

[MusclesFlyers]

Thank you very much Big Cat for the quick reply. I really appreciate the time you take out to answer not only my question, but others as well. Thanks for helping me out and as soon as I get a transdermal whipped up, I'll be sure to make a thread on it and its effectiveness. Thanks once again

P.S. do you also think that other ingredients like the caffeine and maybe synephrine should be equivelant to the amount of yohimbine?

[squal]

GREAT JOB BIG CAT REALLY,

perfect French,

in fact lipoderm it s only 3 g of yohimbine per bottle of 4oz.

maybe i should not order it but only 6 or 9 g of yohimbine and alcohol you said, i wanted do that in a bottle of 4oz.

so i have to do the dosage by eyes, i mean when it looks ok???

what could i put in more? ephedrine? cayenne poivre? (black pepper


manipulate these alchol is it dangerous?

i d like do a good topical with a good cost effect.

thanks a lot .

BIG CAT PERFECT FRENCH.
BYE.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by MusclesFlyers
Thank you very much Big Cat for the quick reply. I really appreciate the time you take out to answer not only my question, but others as well. Thanks for helping me out and as soon as I get a transdermal whipped up, I'll be sure to make a thread on it and its effectiveness. Thanks once again

I'd appreciate that.


P.S. do you also think that other ingredients like the caffeine and maybe synephrine should be equivelant to the amount of yohimbine?

From a technical viewpoint they'd have to be higher, since they wouldn't be delivered as well. However, Caffeine is a more potent lipolytic drug than yohimbine, so the same or slightly less will suffice. Synephrine isn't, but I don't see the point in saturating the carrier with synephrine and then losing the effect of yohimbine and caffeine. So I'd keep them both the same or less.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
in fact lipoderm it s only 3 g of yohimbine per bottle of 4oz.

3g/4oz est la meme chose que 6g/8oz.


maybe i should not order it but only 6 or 9 g of yohimbine and alcohol you said, i wanted do that in a bottle of 4oz.

Then 4.5g per 4 oz may be better.


so i have to do the dosage by eyes, i mean when it looks ok???

Fill up the bottle with 120 ml of water and put a mark. Dump out the water and dry it, then dump in the products, add benzyl and shake until dissolved and then add 50/50 acetone and isopropanol until you reach the mark, that's pretty accurate.


what could i put in more? ephedrine? cayenne poivre? (black pepper

We discussed ephedrine before, unless you have a reason not to take it orally, I would take it orally. But yes, you can add it.

As for peppers, the active constituent is the pungent capsaicin. We discussed this before as well. Yohimbine and the like will negate the effect of capsaicin on fat loss. But it is a good penetration enhancer. I would get pure capsaicin and just add 0.02%. That's all you need.



manipulate these alchol is it dangerous?

Not as long as you don't drink it.

[squal]

THANKS A LOT BIG CAT,

for your time, for your complete answer, sorry if i asked things that has been ever said, sorry.
no i could take ephedrine orally isn t a problem if i saty in reasonable dosage, like 50 mg per day, i did good diet without any fat burner,

it s just have somes trouble fat rea, so if i can do a better topical fat loss, not too complicate to prepare,and cheaper than lipoderm i m interested in it.

i found a liter of acetone at 3 euros about the same $.

i ll go see the others products,

not be afraid i don t drink alcohol at all, lol.

really thanks a lot BIG CAT FOR YOUR GREAT HELP, and from now I want see you talk more in French, lol, GREAT JOB
TAKE CARE
THANKS.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
for your time, for your complete answer, sorry if i asked things that has been ever said, sorry.
no i could take ephedrine orally isn t a problem if i saty in reasonable dosage, like 50 mg per day, i did good dietwithout any fat burner

I see no need to go higher than 25-30 mg with ephedrine, in most cases 20 mg is more than sufficient.


it s just have somes trouble fat rea, so if i can do a better topical fat loss, not too complicate to prepare,and cheaper than lipoderm i m interested in it.

Best to keep topical fat loss for the end of a diet because it tends to decrease in efficacy after time. Unless you pretreat with DMSO.


really thanks a lot BIG CAT FOR YOUR GREAT HELP, and from now I want see you talk more in French, lol

i'll try my best. I'm brushing up because I'm reading some studies in French concerning new developments in obesity treatment. A French Journal did a whole issue dedicated to it last month. I understand French perfectly, but I don't always feel to secure speaking it.

[squal]

HI BIG CAT and every people too,

NO REALLY YOUR FRENCH IS PERFECT, I d love talk English like that, i can write it a little but i ve to speak i m babababa lol, need to be self confidence.

i went to the pharmacy i told you, so they have all product but i find somes quite expensive.

so

alchol BENZYL 100 ml 35 euros, about 40$

and alchol isopropanol is 100 ml 6.70 euros about 7.5$


and acetone, i find in a peinture shop for a liter 3$

so I don t know what should i do..

lipoderm is 25$ for 4oz. with 3 g of yohimbine.

i wonder i could use these alchol severals time, so maybe i ll be able to do severals topical product with..

I don t know which is the best, at this time i don t have a lot of money so, order lipoderm or only yohimbine and take my own..

j attends des réponses avec impatience.
MERCI.

[SupremeDan]

hey BIG CAT

would it be a great idea if i mix the benzyl alcohol with COLAGEN and aply it to the face, for healthy skin purposes????

[MusclesFlyers]

Hey, i've came across some difficulty in finding Benzyl Alcohol. What stores are you guys finding this at? Also, is Isopropyl Alcohol 91% alright to use? thanks

[squal]

sorry me I find these alchol in PARIS, so for US i can t tell you.

[MusclesFlyers]

Big Cat..I've decided that instead of using caffeine, I'm going to go with a xanthine such as theophylline (aminophylline). Now, I've been looking for it on the web, but can only find it as tablets. Do you know of anywhere that I can get it in powder? thanks

[cmunf]

Christ people, DO NOT USE ANY BENZYL ALCOHOL OVER 10%. It does have side effects, Benzyl Alcohol is Highly volatile. Can cause problems with the central nervous system, headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, drop in blood pressure, depression, and death in severe cases due to respiratory failure. I know this is the extreme but dont go crazy with this stuff. Don't believe all the info-science out there either.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by SupremeDan
hey BIG CAT

would it be a great idea if i mix the benzyl alcohol with COLAGEN and aply it to the face, for healthy skin purposes????

There are better ideas for skin care. Just have a look around beauty shops and pharmacies and pick up some skin care products to get a rough idea. But yes, mixing those active ingredients, provided they can be delivered by benzyl, with this benzyl/isoprop/acetone system will work.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
alchol BENZYL 100 ml 35 euros, about 40$

and alchol isopropanol is 100 ml 6.70 euros about 7.5$

That's because of pharmacist's fees. Ask how much it is for 1L. I remember it cost 25euros for 100 ml of benzyl and 28 euros for 250 ml at my pharmacy. Its cheaper if you buy more. A lot cheaper.


I don t know which is the best, at this time i don t have a lot of money so, order lipoderm or only yohimbine and take my own..

j attends des réponses avec impatience.
MERCI.

If you can't afford 25 dollars even, then I would just stick to my diet. No supplement is worth wasting money on you can't afford to spare.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by cmunf
Christ people, DO NOT USE ANY BENZYL ALCOHOL OVER 10%. It does have side effects, Benzyl Alcohol is Highly volatile. Can cause problems with the central nervous system, headache, nausea, vomiting, dizziness, drop in blood pressure, depression, and death in severe cases due to respiratory failure. I know this is the extreme but dont go crazy with this stuff. Don't believe all the info-science out there either.

You are not supposed to drink it. The systemic absorption of 12 ml topical application containing roughly 2 to 6 ml benzyl alcohol is so small, it wouldn't cause side-effects in a mosquito.

Please take the time to read all the data presented prior to throwing out uninformed comments.

[squal]

HI BIG CAT,

i alway had good result without any supplement, i did good diet without fat burner, but even when i was really ripped, i m never ripped on butt and ishios no way, i always have some fat with water, i wish i could inject something in which could destroyed all fat cellule for ever, lol.

so topical fat lose is my last chance against, i don t know what could i do.

i d prefer keep my money.

if u have any idea.

thanks.

oh and do u think these alchol could be a good investissement?

[UWHawks]

great thread, keep the info coming.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
i alway had good result without any supplement, i did good diet without fat burner, but even when i was really ripped, i m never ripped on butt and ishios no way, i always have some fat with water, i wish i could inject something in which could destroyed all fat cellule for ever, lol.

Plastic surgeons are getting good results with phosphatidylcholine injections.


oh and do u think these alchol could be a good investissement?

If you plan on making more topical products in the future, definitely.

[damned.]

What would I need to buy to make something simular to sytenhance, for much cheaper. Or will I have to buy it? Because gel 3 and sytenhance cost the same.

Is the *********** transport matrix the same thing as sytenhance with out the hormone? If so could I add 1-test to the bottle and shake it up and use it like sytenhance?

the ingredients are

Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, ocytl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene.

The ingreients to Gel 3 are....

Isopropyl alcohol, benzyl alcohol, octyl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene, carbomer

[Starcour]

Great thread Big Cat. I'm still hoping to hear a few success stories, but in the mean time i'm bored enough to give it a whirl on my own. I've read the entire thread, but i'm still wondering which to add to my homebrew......DHEA or Yohimbine........or should i add both to the brew? I found a site that sells 4 oz of Yohimbe C/S Powder for $5. Is this the correct type of yohimbe for our topical fat loss homebrew?. I could post the website if you wish.

[massbuilder]

BC do you recommend treating skin with DMSO even before applying systemic trandemal formula (contains DMSO)

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Grant D
What would I need to buy to make something simular to sytenhance, for much cheaper. Or will I have to buy it? Because gel 3 and sytenhance cost the same.

Is the *********** transport matrix the same thing as sytenhance with out the hormone? If so could I add 1-test to the bottle and shake it up and use it like sytenhance?

Yes, although Sytenhance is one of the least cost-effective products to ever come out. Due to the high degree of lipophillicity of the ingredients, you lose A LOT of it systemically, so i hope you don't think that just because its advertised as local that it will avoid you systemic side-effects. And of course the ultimate efficacy of what does get delivered locally depends on how many layers it has to travel through. If it has to go through three inches of fat, odds are it won't pay off as much.

I'm working on resolving the problem, for a product that doesn't use prohormones. But when I'm done with the research, I will post it here, so that those individuals wanting to use it with prohormones can.


the ingredients are

Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, ocytl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene.

The ingreients to Gel 3 are....

Isopropyl alcohol, benzyl alcohol, octyl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene, carbomer

I noticed the first does not contain benzyl. Unless it contains benzyl or another amphiphillic compound with micellar qualities like PC, it will not be delivered locally at all ...

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Starcour
Great thread Big Cat. I'm still hoping to hear a few success stories, but in the mean time i'm bored enough to give it a whirl on my own. I've read the entire thread, but i'm still wondering which to add to my homebrew......DHEA or Yohimbine........or should i add both to the brew? I found a site that sells 4 oz of Yohimbe C/S Powder for $5. Is this the correct type of yohimbe for our topical fat loss homebrew?. I could post the website if you wish.

Yohimbe is NOT THE SAME as yohimbine. Yohimbe is a mixture of several alkaloids. So no, this is most definitely NOT the correct type. Definitely go with the yohimbine, it is more efficacious than the DHEA. Adding both would work though.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by massbuilder
BC do you recommend treating skin with DMSO even before applying systemic trandemal formula (contains DMSO)

I see no point, when the product already contains 60-90% DMSO, there is no need to pretreat and it would only increase irritation since you add more DMSO than you need. For systemic delivery you can use any formula that already contains 60-90% DMSO since there is no local carrier to mess up.

The only reason to pretreat in those cases would be because you show adverse reactions to DMSO that are too great, then pretreatment may be wiser because you can use less DMSO for the same effect. But then obviously you can't have DMSO in your TD formula.

[Pirub88]

Anyone know of a place online to buy all, or where you guys bought them? Preferably in one location.

Benzyl Alcohol
Acetone
Isopropanol
DMSO

I went to the pharmacy and they didn't have benzyl alcohol. Are there any other names for these compounds?

Also, do you get your yohimbine hcl from ******** or somewhere else?

thanks

[MusclesFlyers]

Isopropanol is also known as Isopropyl Alcohol..thats found at any pharmacy and acetone u can find at a hardware store with paint removal supplies..im not sure where to get benzyl alcohol from though..im still looking for it

[Pirub88]

How much benzyl alcohol do you think it would take to disolve 3g of yohimbine hcl?

[Get Ripped]

ok guys I got benzyl alcohol from lemelange.com what i'm curious about is if anyone here has bought their benzyl from there as well and if so have you made the transdermal. why i'm asking is because for some reason the yohimbine won't dissolve in it. i tried 6g yoh. hcl and i put up to 225 ml benzyl alc. and it still wouldn't dissolve. is there anything special i gotta do like heat it up. and if it does dissolve when heated up, will it stay dissolved when it comes back down to room temp. guys, any help is appreciated.

[UWHawks]

anyone put this together yet and tried it?

[pu12en12g]

Originally posted by Pirub88
Also, do you get your yohimbine hcl from ******** or somewhere else?

thanks

Yep I get mine from there because I trust him. It's the real deal.

I haven't tried it yet because oddly... I haven't needed to. The stack in my sig has been working pretty damn well. I haven't even needed lipoderm-y yet.

Down from 225 lbs to 210lbs :cool:

This is still the BEST THREAD EVER, and I hope Big Cat starts his own company. In fact I would like to be a investor.

[hard_gainer123]

So, no one has tried this yet? Im still interested in the results.

[hard_gainer123]

BC, if you were going to make a mixture with Yohimbine, and DHEA, how much would you use of each?

[hard_gainer123]

Also, would guggulsterone work well?

[Ornathon]

Hey, Big Cat. I'm working on the TD. I've got the Yohimbine, Aceton, DMSO and tomorrow Isopropanol and Benzyl Alcohol.
But got some questions left before proceeding.

When DMSO is used for pretreatment do you just put the pure DMSO in a spray bottle and that's it? (and offcourse the yohimbine mixture in another spray bottle)

But what if one push on the spray gives too much DMSO. Is it possible to make it thinner with something? like water?

With that thought in mind..how much pure DMSO on the skin at one place is enough to do it's work? ...keeping in mind the yohimbine solvent will be placed on various problem areas at the same time so I need to pretreat the skin on multiple places too.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Ornathon
Hey, Big Cat. I'm working on the TD. I've got the Yohimbine, Aceton, DMSO and tomorrow Isopropanol and Benzyl Alcohol.
But got some questions left before proceeding.

When DMSO is used for pretreatment do you just put the pure DMSO in a spray bottle and that's it? (and offcourse the yohimbine mixture in another spray bottle)

But what if one push on the spray gives too much DMSO. Is it possible to make it thinner with something? like water?

With that thought in mind..how much pure DMSO on the skin at one place is enough to do it's work? ...keeping in mind the yohimbine solvent will be placed on various problem areas at the same time so I need to pretreat the skin on multiple places too.

In every area roughly half the amount of the product. So if you apply 6 ml of cream, 3 ml of DMSO should suffice. I would personally use a syringe to measure out and apply the DMSO.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by hard_gainer123
BC, if you were going to make a mixture with Yohimbine, and DHEA, how much would you use of each?

Something like 3g of each for 120 ml.

[pu12en12g]

Hey Big Cat,

At what dosage do you think DMSO would cause "DMSO breath" ?

[Big Cat]

Pretty much any dose that works. Question is when, and that depends more on the purity than on the dose.

[x_muscle]

BC

what do you think about adding DNP to Y-hcl transdemal formula?
it will be less dangerous than taking it systematicly

[squal]

ok,

I don t know if BIG CAT is here, first Hi everybody, ok now I have 10 g of yohimbine, 100 ml of alcol BENZYL, 200 ml of ISOPROPANOL ALCOL, and 1 liter of ACETONE,

so, i d like make this topical fatburner, i ve bottle of 4 oz, any suggestion about dosages, ratios, I can keep somes yohimbine for a next time, i was thinking taking about 4 g of yohimbine per bottles, but i don t know about alcol, any info is welcome to make it better.

bye
thanks.

[ijacks]

would proscar be more effective at preventing male-pattern baldness if altered following these instructions and applied locally, directly onto the scalp?

[Reptile]

Hi there,
this question is mainly for Big Cat or any other person who knows their science.
Now I live in Toronto, so you know that getting a product like Yohimbine can be a b**ch of a hassle, I can get the alcohol, acetone and stuff but I wanted to know to make a fatloss transdermal can I use any alternatives to Yohimbine with the same effect (fatloss in stomach and/or hips/buttocks area)? I read earlier that you can use Synephrine (in higher doses) and/or caffeine, but I wasn't sure how much or if there are other alternatives? If so what should I be looking for? Mainly powder form I will assume? Now remember I am in Canada.
Thanks very much
Reptile

[squal]

CANADA MUST BE GREAT TO LIVE.

hi and bye everybody.

[Reptile]

Anyone care to help out please?

[squal]

so NO IDEA about the ratio of alcohol.???

reptile why don t u ask they put in the box vit c, or something like that, just no yohimbine, i think it s the better bet to topical fatloss.

bye.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by x_muscle
BC

what do you think about adding DNP to Y-hcl transdemal formula?
it will be less dangerous than taking it systematicly

Naturally, since less is taken up systemically. But I don't know whether DNP is a good candidate. I'd need to see a structural drawing of the molecule.

[Pirub88]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Naturally, since less is taken up systemically. But I don't know whether DNP is a good candidate. I'd need to see a structural drawing of the molecule.

Even if it were possible, you could only assume the stain would be horrid. Why not just consume it orally?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by ijacks
would proscar be more effective at preventing male-pattern baldness if altered following these instructions and applied locally, directly onto the scalp?

From what i've been told, but I can't vouch for this, finasteride shampoo's work pretty local as is.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
ok,

I don t know if BIG CAT is here, first Hi everybody, ok now I have 10 g of yohimbine, 100 ml of alcol BENZYL, 200 ml of ISOPROPANOL ALCOL, and 1 liter of ACETONE,

so, i d like make this topical fatburner, i ve bottle of 4 oz, any suggestion about dosages, ratios, I can keep somes yohimbine for a next time, i was thinking taking about 4 g of yohimbine per bottles, but i don t know about alcol, any info is welcome to make it better.

bye
thanks.

As insytructed. Add benzyl until dissolved, then add 50/50 mixture of acetone/isopropanol until full.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Reptile
Hi there,
this question is mainly for Big Cat or any other person who knows their science.
Now I live in Toronto, so you know that getting a product like Yohimbine can be a b**ch of a hassle, I can get the alcohol, acetone and stuff but I wanted to know to make a fatloss transdermal can I use any alternatives to Yohimbine with the same effect (fatloss in stomach and/or hips/buttocks area)? I read earlier that you can use Synephrine (in higher doses) and/or caffeine, but I wasn't sure how much or if there are other alternatives? If so what should I be looking for? Mainly powder form I will assume? Now remember I am in Canada.
Thanks very much
Reptile

A number of things have been discussed. Caffeine would work, although other xanthines like aminophylline are better suited for this type of delivery.

[squal]

thanks a lot BIG CAT

so i ll make it, about 4 g of yohimbine, benzyl to cover and disolve it, and 50/50 of iso and acetone, i think i ll be able to use theses alcohol severals time coz 4 oz is small.

ok, thanks i ll see soon.

[squal]

ok, I VE A PROBLEM,**


I ve done what i write before, today i tried to apply it, i ever used transdermal, isn t the same at all, I find it too fluid, i ve the feeling there is only alchol, i try to do a squirt but it goes everywhere, go on the bottle, i really find it too fluid, i put about 4-5 g of yohimbine inside.

i think yohimbine stay on the bottom, but i spend my time shake the bottle, an other thing it s dry almost before i apply it,

i don t find this mixture of transdermal i ever used, maybe it s something very diferent, i m agree, sorry it s the only point i ve to compare, i ve never used yohimbine , like lipoderm .

I HOPE U COULD HELP, i ve the feeling i m wasting my money, maybe i did something wrong i don t know.

big thanks
thanks all
bye.

[Reptile]

Originally posted by squal
ok, I VE A PROBLEM,**


I ve done what i write before, today i tried to apply it, i ever used transdermal, isn t the same at all, I find it too fluid, i ve the feeling there is only alchol, i try to do a squirt but it goes everywhere, go on the bottle, i really find it too fluid, i put about 4-5 g of yohimbine inside.

i think yohimbine stay on the bottom, but i spend my time shake the bottle, an other thing it s dry almost before i apply it,

i don t find this mixture of transdermal i ever used, maybe it s something very diferent, i m agree, sorry it s the only point i ve to compare, i ve never used yohimbine , like lipoderm .

I HOPE U COULD HELP, i ve the feeling i m wasting my money, maybe i did something wrong i don t know.

big thanks
thanks all
bye.


Hi there,
just out of curiosity what were your exact measurements for all the ingredients?

[squal]

HI

MAYBE I VE DONE A MISTAKE I DID EXACTLY WHAT I VE SAID ABOUT 4-5 G OF YOHIMBINE BENZYL ALCOHOL TO DISOVE IT, and after i add isopropanol and acetone with a ratio 50/50 for the rest of the bottle, i used a 4 oz bottle.
it s just too dumb if i ve done a mistake.

thanks

[squal]

SO NONE HAS ANY IDEA???

THANKS

[petee677]

Squal, the problem is that yohimbine DOES NOT dissolve in benzyl alcohol, at least, it does not do so at room temperature. I have no idea if it's possible to heat it or use some other method to increase solubility. If anyone has any idea how to increase solubility safely, please post. This has been a problem mentioned by a few others in this thread, and could be the reason not a lot of people are posting results. I would also be interested in knowing what substances, if any, the rest of you have been able to dissolve in the benzyl alcohol. I'd love to try this, but the lack of solubility of the yohimbine in the BA makes it impossible.

[squal]

thanks petee677,

I didn t know that, my English is limited so i don t understand all the words which has been said on this forum.

so it s too dumb, I m wasting my money, maybe I ve done a mistake when I did that blend, maybe the best thing is what I wanted do in first, I mean buy a lipoderm bottle and add some ISOPROPANOL and yohimbine.

Isopropanol is quite cheap I paid about 10$ for 200 ml, ACETONE TOO, 4$ for a liter, but A BENZYL about 40$ for 100ml, and Yohimbine quite expensive too.

I ve ever used transdermal as I said that s why I found that strange, I used this transdermal you know when you apply it without gloves and you touch a part of you face you drop in hell for 20 minutes

but with my blend nothing, I aplly it, it s dry almost before touch my skin, and it s very liguid, I thing it s only alcol, and yohimbine is on the bottom of the bottle.

maybe at the end of the bottle yohimbine will come, the pro is that i started a diet to try it, and I dt want stay in diet severals month, so maybe i should order lipoderm, ??

if you have any idea, BIG CAT IF YOU HEARD ME
HELP US

THANKS AT ALL FOR READING
BYE.

[pu12en12g]

Yohimbine HCL powder should be soluable in water... so I don't know what the problem might be ?

[PinZ]

this stuff is waay over my head, but is an amazing post all the same. some great stuff here, it amazes me how advanced lifting goes.

[squal]

HI,

AS I told I ve the feeling my blend is only alcohol, maybe yohimbine will come after, i will see, i don t feel yohimbine on the bottom, like creatine cd do in water, it s very liguid, and dry very quickly, we have to keep in mind that these alcohol dry very fast, like acetone,

maybe i m quite lost because transdermal experience i ve had was with squirt, not very liguid.

bye.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
thanks petee677,

I didn t know that, my English is limited so i don t understand all the words which has been said on this forum.

so it s too dumb, I m wasting my money, maybe I ve done a mistake when I did that blend, maybe the best thing is what I wanted do in first, I mean buy a lipoderm bottle and add some ISOPROPANOL and yohimbine.

Isopropanol is quite cheap I paid about 10$ for 200 ml, ACETONE TOO, 4$ for a liter, but A BENZYL about 40$ for 100ml, and Yohimbine quite expensive too.

I ve ever used transdermal as I said that s why I found that strange, I used this transdermal you know when you apply it without gloves and you touch a part of you face you drop in hell for 20 minutes

but with my blend nothing, I aplly it, it s dry almost before touch my skin, and it s very liguid, I thing it s only alcol, and yohimbine is on the bottom of the bottle.

maybe at the end of the bottle yohimbine will come, the pro is that i started a diet to try it, and I dt want stay in diet severals month, so maybe i should order lipoderm, ??

if you have any idea, BIG CAT IF YOU HEARD ME
HELP US

THANKS AT ALL FOR READING
BYE.

What exactly is the problem ?

1.It is NOT supposed to burn at all, its only alcohol and acetone

2.It is indeed very liquid, its alcohol and acetone. Adding thickener would screw up evaporation of the isoprop and acetone.

It should work fine.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by petee677
Squal, the problem is that yohimbine DOES NOT dissolve in benzyl alcohol, at least, it does not do so at room temperature. I have no idea if it's possible to heat it or use some other method to increase solubility. If anyone has any idea how to increase solubility safely, please post. This has been a problem mentioned by a few others in this thread, and could be the reason not a lot of people are posting results. I would also be interested in knowing what substances, if any, the rest of you have been able to dissolve in the benzyl alcohol. I'd love to try this, but the lack of solubility of the yohimbine in the BA makes it impossible.

BA is actually a pretty good solvent for most products due to its amphiphillic nature.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by pu12en12g
Yohimbine HCL powder should be soluable in water... so I don't know what the problem might be ?

Its actually quite poorly soluble in water, no more than 10mg/ml at best. straight yohimbine, which is better for this type of delivery, is even less. In BA it should dissolved between 25 and 50 mg/ml at least.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by squal
HI,

AS I told I ve the feeling my blend is only alcohol, maybe yohimbine will come after, i will see, i don t feel yohimbine on the bottom, like creatine cd do in water, it s very liguid, and dry very quickly, we have to keep in mind that these alcohol dry very fast, like acetone,

maybe i m quite lost because transdermal experience i ve had was with squirt, not very liguid.

bye.

Don't worry, if you made it like you are supposed to this is perfect. The acetone and isopropanol are supposed to evaporate fast and the benzyl has to carry the yohimbine across.

There should be no, or very minimal residu left on the skin. And if you made it correctly, there should be no residu in the bottle either.

[squal]

HI BIG CAT

THANKS, in fact i did what i said, when i put in on my skin, it smells acetone, but there isn almost nothing on my skin left, only odor, as if i put nothing, wgat about dress? i mean, how long wait before put a clothes on?

THANKS BIG CAT
bye.

[Big Cat]

The acetone should evporate immediately and the bulk of the isoprop should evaporate in 3 min so give it about 10 min.

[squal]

thanks BIG CAT,

maybe i ve done a mistake it didn t let enought time before put my clotheson, only about 5 minutes.

[Get Ripped]

Big Cat,
how would you recommend heating the benzyl to dissolve the yohimbine, I don't have any science equipment at my house as I don't work in a lab. I just got regular kitchen utensils. How do I sterilize the equipment and what are the steps I take in dissolving the yohimbine. Also once the solution is heated and the yoh is dissolved when it comes back to room temperature will the yoh become powder again and sit at the bottom. reason I'm asking is cause I did it the first time and didn't heat it or anything and the yoh never dissolved and just sat at the bottom. Thanks man without you this thread is nothing.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Yes, although Sytenhance is one of the least cost-effective products to ever come out. [/B]

whatever moron. I suppose the documented results with pictures from users show it just doesn't work.

Obviously home brewing is cheaper what kind of imbecile would think otherwise?

[petee677]

Customizer, who said that Sytenhance "doesn't work"? That's not at all mentioned in the quote you posted. And why are you so upset that it's been stated that making your own topicals is cheaper? Who's being the moron?

[An Inconvenient Bro]

the statement called it

"one of the least cost effective products to ever come out"

homebrew vs. retail or not this was a highly unfair statement, look at all the garbage products available and to compare something that does actually work and was innovative to them is absolutely stupid and nothing more than a pathetic smear campaign

[ROTK]

Homebrew is definitely cheaper. But I do hope that some geniuses don't hop over to K-Mart and load up on the denatured ethanol/methanol or acetone. The thought of people bathing themselves in these solvents with toxic ingredients added, makes me shudder.

Don't use anything that is below USP grade!!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Get Ripped
Big Cat,
how would you recommend heating the benzyl to dissolve the yohimbine, I don't have any science equipment at my house as I don't work in a lab. I just got regular kitchen utensils. How do I sterilize the equipment and what are the steps I take in dissolving the yohimbine. Also once the solution is heated and the yoh is dissolved when it comes back to room temperature will the yoh become powder again and sit at the bottom. reason I'm asking is cause I did it the first time and didn't heat it or anything and the yoh never dissolved and just sat at the bottom. Thanks man without you this thread is nothing.

The idea, as I explained is to add benzyl alcohol at room temp until all Yoh is dissolved. So I don't know where this heating thing comes from. Sterility is not so much of an issue because its a topical product. Unless you live in a total disease infested dump, the chance that the slight contamination (provided you do use clean containers) that occurs during the manufacturing will cause problems is non-existent.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Customizer
the statement called it

"one of the least cost effective products to ever come out"

homebrew vs. retail or not this was a highly unfair statement, look at all the garbage products available and to compare something that does actually work and was innovative to them is absolutely stupid and nothing more than a pathetic smear campaign

It is one of the least cost-effective supplements to ever come out. You can't deny that. Not only is the delivery sub-par, it also uses an active ingredient that is not well suited for this type of delivery resulting in much greater loss of product than with the other applications and it targets a tissue that is located much deeper across another layer of tissue that is highly absorptive of the compound and extremely variable in distance across a wide population. All of this on top of the added price, which in this case is the least of the issues.

If that's not a low cost-efficacy I don't know what is. I do indeed have my doubts about this working for most people, but I won't deny it could, the theory behind it is entirely sound. What I am saying is that its a costly waste of a lot of material that is already being sold at much higher cost.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by ROTK
Homebrew is definitely cheaper. But I do hope that some geniuses don't hop over to K-Mart and load up on the denatured ethanol/methanol or acetone. The thought of people bathing themselves in these solvents with toxic ingredients added, makes me shudder.

Don't use anything that is below USP grade!!

Good remark, I might add that I obtain all my materials via a pharmaceutical supplier and if at all possible, I highly recommend the same for anyone attempting these projects.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Originally posted by Big Cat
It is one of the least cost-effective supplements to ever come out. You can't deny that. Not only is the delivery sub-par, it also uses an active ingredient that is not well suited for this type of delivery resulting in much greater loss of product than with the other applications and it targets a tissue that is located much deeper across another layer of tissue that is highly absorptive of the compound and extremely variable in distance across a wide population. All of this on top of the added price, which in this case is the least of the issues.

If that's not a low cost-efficacy I don't know what is. I do indeed have my doubts about this working for most people, but I won't deny it could, the theory behind it is entirely sound. What I am saying is that its a costly waste of a lot of material that is already being sold at much higher cost.


Yawn....

I could run down the cyberstore list and pick hundreds of non cost effective supplements which would place far lower than sytenhance (and name them if I felt like being sued).

Your statement is nothing more than a testament of either your pure stupidity or your vendetta against Par. Either way I don't care and for reference I think I'll take his advice on product formulation over yours any day of the week thanks.

[Big Cat]

Put up or shut up. I will gladly disprove you. And don't give me any bull**** excuses about being sued, if you really are too chicken send it to me by email. You'll be lucky to find one product that is less cost-efficient.

My statement is nothing more than the truth. If anything that is a testament to Par's stupidity, not mine.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Put up or shut up. I will gladly disprove you. And don't give me any bull**** excuses about being sued, if you really are too chicken send it to me by email. You'll be lucky to find one product that is less cost-efficient.

My statement is nothing more than the truth. If anything that is a testament to Par's stupidity, not mine.

Just so we're clear on the magnitude of the ignorance of your statement, are you actually saying that I could not find one product in the cyberstore which is less cost effective than sytenhance?

and ps. getting sued is not a bull**** excuse, some peopel have more to lose than a motorscooter, esp over something so rediculous

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Customizer
Just so we're clear on the magnitude of the ignorance of your statement, are you actually saying that I could not find one product in the cyberstore which is less cost effective than sytenhance?

Yep, not a single product out there wastes as much of its active ingredient as sytenhance, that's exactly what I'm saying.


and ps. getting sued is not a bull**** excuse, some peopel have more to lose than a motorscooter, esp over something so rediculous

Boohoo, nobody ever got sued for saying a product wasn't cost-effective on a message board. Especially if you claim you can back it up.

For the record : It doesn't make a really good impression when you use the word ridiculous and spell it incorrectly ...

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Originally posted by Big Cat






Boohoo, nobody ever got sued for saying a product wasn't cost-effective on a message board. Especially if you claim you can back it up.
[/B]


you just keep on believeing that

[Big Cat]

Yeah, whatever. If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the kitchen, but stop ****ing up my thread if you're only going to blow hot air.

[Ras]

BC, I hate to cavil over typos, but you spelled lipophilic incorrectly about a half-dozen times in this thread. Given the topic under discussion, I would think this the more egregious error.

[Big Cat]

BC, I hate to cavil over typos, but you spelled lipophilic incorrectly about a half-dozen times in this thread. Given the topic under discussion, I would think this the more egregious error.

I beg to differ, lipophillic being purely objective in use and despite the typing error, unambiguous. While using the word ridiculous in an utterly subjective way to demean anothers intelligence and then spelling it wrong is, well, ridiculous.

[squal]

HI BIG CAT and everybody,

I did the blend, acetone, iso , benzyl and yohimbine, in my 4 oz bottle, when I was on diet, so I finished low in weight as always, shredded except my ****ty stubborn area, at the end of my diet I used the blend for about 3 weeks but no results,

isn t a critic I just don t know why, and I ve enought to be unable to destroy this stubborn fat for years, this situation drive me crazy, I ve never used steroids but if there d exist a product that could help I really think I d use it.

if you have any idea, I d love to know it.

TODAY IS A TRAGIC DAY IN HISTORY, JUST HAVE THOUGHTS FOR INNOCENTS
DAY OF MEMORY.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

HI BIG CAT and everybody,

I did the blend, acetone, iso , benzyl and yohimbine, in my 4 oz bottle, when I was on diet, so I finished low in weight as always, shredded except my ****ty stubborn area, at the end of my diet I used the blend for about 3 weeks but no results,

isn t a critic I just don t know why, and I ve enought to be unable to destroy this stubborn fat for years, this situation drive me crazy, I ve never used steroids but if there d exist a product that could help I really think I d use it.

if you have any idea, I d love to know it.

TODAY IS A TRAGIC DAY IN HISTORY, JUST HAVE THOUGHTS FOR INNOCENTS
DAY OF MEMORY.



one explanation might be related to the fact that Par (who is an expert on transdermal and site specific transdermal delivery) mentioned the formula BC posted looked like a mere placebo compared to the carrier used in his Lipoderm products.

[squal]

I don t know

I know BIG CAT for severals years now, all his treads were honest, with a lot of facts, good explanations, even his mails were the same, I really trust him,

[Big Cat]

one explanation might be related to the fact that Par (who is an expert on transdermal and site specific transdermal delivery) mentioned the formula BC posted looked like a mere placebo compared to the carrier used in his Lipoderm products.

Hmmm, Guess you missed the first few posts of this thread, that clearly explains that the basic principle is the same, namely TPDS. It also goes on to explain, with the necessary references why certain things in Lipoderm are counter-effective and how they were corrected.

I might also add there are several posts on several boards by a multitude of people claiming Lipoderm doesn't work as well ... I could hammer that home, but I won't. Par sent me some lipoderm a long time ago, I used it, and though it didn't do much, it did work. I also compared this formula to a Lipoderm carrier formula, and the formula of my upcoming product SCOPE in several controlled trials, and I know the difference in effect.

Now we can bitch this point to death, which I'm sure you would love to do, but Par has already agreed to test Lipoderm Ultra against SCOPE when it comes out, and I will wait for that to comment any further. Actions speak louder than words, even when they are referenced better ...

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Now we can bitch this point to death, which I'm sure you would love to do, but Par has already agreed to test Lipoderm Ultra against SCOPE when it comes out, and I will wait for that to comment any further. Actions speak louder than words, even when they are referenced better ...


sounds good, I look forward to seeing it myself.

Just make sure you have some profit in it, I mildly remember you debating business ideals with Bruce and your model sounded, well.....rediculous ;)

btw, good name for the product

[An Inconvenient Bro]

I might also add there are several posts on several boards by a multitude of people claiming Lipoderm doesn't work as well ... I could hammer that home, but I won't. Par sent me some lipoderm a long time ago, I used it, and though it didn't do much, it did work. I also compared this formula to a Lipoderm carrier formula, and the formula of my upcoming product SCOPE in several controlled trials, and I know the difference in effect.


many times customers just want to bitch. I think the majority of people using the product and making these claims are not using it properly, IE: bodyfat too high to begin with, no change in diet etc. expecting the magic bullet to remove those trouble spots with no additional efforts

[Big Cat]

many times customers just want to bitch. I think the majority of people using the product and making these claims are not using it properly, IE: bodyfat too high to begin with, no change in diet etc. expecting the magic bullet to remove those trouble spots with no additional efforts

Well duh, maybe squal used it improperly. I wasn't there was I ? My point was that your reaction shows a certain degree of stupidity in assuming that the product is ineffective because one person said it did not work. Especially when the thread you post it in offers a clear review of the science of this and of lipoderm, for anyone and everyone to verify. Like I said, head to head comparison, or Par's refusal thereof, will determine the true efficacy in due time. In the mean time I fully understand you trying to protect the hand that feeds you, but frankly I find it rude and offensive and having no place on the supp science board.

[Big Cat]

sounds good, I look forward to seeing it myself.

Just make sure you have some profit in it, I mildly remember you debating business ideals with Bruce and your model sounded, well.....rediculous ;)

btw, good name for the product

I don't have any profit in it, but that's my business, not yours. Science is a passion, and bodybuilding an obession. Suffice it to say, I don't need money to corrupt that. The name comes from the theory my use of penetration enhancers is based on, and it will later be followed by an oral fat loss combination (most likely a pill and a powder) that walks an entirely different road from all current fat loss products which, for irony's sake, I named RIFLE. Figured it was good promo material to suggest getting rid of fat with a RIFLE and if you wanted to target it, use a SCOPE.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

Well duh, maybe squal used it improperly. I wasn't there was I ? My point was that your reaction shows a certain degree of stupidity in assuming that the product is ineffective because one person said it did not work.

not really, I just found a good opportunity to get under your skin. An opportunity I would have never taken until I saw that you found the need to take an opportunity to slam Sytenhance.

[Big Cat]

not really, I just found a good opportunity to get under your skin. An opportunity I would have never taken until I saw that you found the need to take an opportunity to slam Sytenhance.

If you care to contest the facts I raised to dismiss sytenhance, you are welcome to debate them and I will gladly respond appropriately. It's an incredibly poor product. I have been working, theoretically, on something similar and even with the much improved delivery of SCOPE, I can't obtain any sort of predictable results that would make me secure enough to consider releasing it for commercial purposes.

[squal]

HI ANY IDEA FOR ME???

as I said

I did the blend, acetone, iso , benzyl and yohimbine, in my 4 oz bottle, when I was on diet, so I finished low in weight as always, shredded except my ****ty stubborn area, at the end of my diet I used the blend for about 3 weeks but no results,

isn t a critic I just don t know why, and I ve enought to be unable to destroy this stubborn fat for years, this situation drive me crazy, I ve never used steroids but if there d exist a product that could help I really think I d use it.

if you have any idea, I d love to know it.

THANKS

[pu12en12g]

Squal how much Yohimbine HCL powder were you adding.

[Aussie Adam]

Thanks for the awesome information Big Cat!!

I saw a previous post of someone in Canada having trouble in getting Yohimbine as well. It is illegal to import it into Aust. as is DHEA ans 1-Test. I don't want to import anything illegal.

I have done some research to try to find another Alpha2 blocker, I came up with Rauwolscine (an isomer of Yohimbine), not sure if it to is illegal, it is however AUS$164 for 500mgs!!!!

Any idea on another alternative Alpha2 blocker?

[squal]

HI PUT12EN12G, and everybody ,

ok, I ordered 10 g of yohimbine hcl, and i added half, 4-5 g, in a 4 oz bottle, mixed with benzyl, to disolve, then added for the rest of the bottle 50/50 isopropanol and acetone.

BYE.

[squal]

SO NO IDEA HERE?? ( sad face)

Bye everybody.
take care.

[Big Cat]

SO NO IDEA HERE?? ( sad face)

Bye everybody.
take care.

Nope, sorry buddy, did you apply 3-6 ml, twice a day ? Did you maintain the same diet low in carbs ? Did you stay on the same oral supplementation ? Same amount of cardio ?

I would say, if you have any left, try some of the tricks for enhancement, such as really scrubbing the area before application, or pre-treating with DMSO.

[Big Cat]

Since you were very low in weight, there is always the chance that with lipolysis being lower after a diet, that your skin built up a resistance before losing a visually noticeable amount of fat. I've never really experimented or compared for extremely lean people, people who want to get lean usually diet down all the way, this is mostly for the people who just want to lose fat in a certain area.

This is also why I recommend pre-treatment with DMSO, as it counters the resistance the skin builds up to penetration. I recommend that for any local delivery topical by the way.

This is the version without penetration enhancement, which still worked better than my Lipoderm clone. When SCOPE is released however, I will also release the data regarding the penetration enhancers it uses so you guys can get the best of the best, if you can obtain the compounds. I'm keeping it on the down low until its released though.

[squal]

HI BIG CAT,

not your fault, for now I just don t know what could I do with all this Benzyl alcohol, lol

you know is not because this hasn t worked for me, that it means it doesn t work, I know your knowledges, to be honest I m not your best cobaye because I ve always had big problem with this stubborn fat area, I can change my weight very quickly, people find that very weird, (everyone think I use steroids), but it s not true, in diet I can lose 15-20 lbs in a week, without be starved, keep same strenght, and even without cardio, and it s fat i m full and feel great, so yes maybe I m weird, lol.

but even when my skin belly is very thigh, my legs stried, all that, I ve the feeling my stubborn area, hasn t been touched at all, THAT S drive me crazy.

you know what you have to do buddy, make a strong very strong topical burn fat for weird guy like me.

I even thought use steroids against that, I wanted use think like winstrol and maybe deca, but I had prefer don t use that.

for the stubborn area, I shaved the area before apply the blend, oh, I ve a very dumb question what is DMSO, I read that often but my dictionary is unable to explain me that, sorry.

ok BYE BIG CAT, take care, same for readers.
bye.

[mordoh]

Hey everyone, long time no one post in this thread...

i was wondering if anyone did the mixture and how well it went..

when i apply what i did on the skin , i get the same as squal got - all of the acetone and ethanol evaporate in half a minute or even more quickly and i left with dry skin .. is it supposed to be like that - the time it takes to the ethanol and acetone to evaporate??
when i smell my skin , it does smell like the benzyl alcohol smell so there is a fine spread of the benzyl alcohol on my skin ,. how long until the benzyl alcohol penetrates the skin? , my self after about an hour i dont smell it anymore (maybe because i put clothes on..?)
also do i need to apply a thick layer of the mixture on the skin or just a thin one will do? what is better?

thanks guys.

[Get Ripped]

Big Cat I'm wondering how the development for your "scope" product is going, and is it going to be based on the same formula you have been posting for this local delivery topical, and also when this product will be available, being that I really want to try it but have never been able to find ba.

[Mr. Chris]

ok ok ok... now ive read through 8 pages and months of posts... and...
ive read all the good info and also all the petty stuff...

so from what i learned/read from this thread is that for a TPDS that is site specific(for fat loss) you should use benzyl alcohol, Isopropyl alcohol, acetone. and of course DMSO prior to application.
and...
for a systemic use(not site specific), (which in my case i want to make a trandermal using 4-ad)... so you shouldnt use the benzyl alcohol just the isopropyl alcohol and acetone as a mixure.
since i dont want the 4-ad to site specific but just systemic(throughout my body/blood)

now this is what i got from this long thread and from all the reading so...




but my question is to Big Cat,
...what ingredients exactly do i use to make a transdermal of 4-ad??? just isopropyl alcohol, acetone and 4-ad???
...im so lost, i need help... :) im confusing myself...

[pu12en12g]

Anyone have any updates on their results ?

[Squacher]

sounds good, anyone have results. good - bad? anything?

[pu12en12g]

sounds good, anyone have results. good - bad? anything?

bump...

[Lok7y]

After reading the first page just now, I will offer a slightly amused "no comment".

[Texas Ranger]

Good thread!!!

[joikd]

How much of this Yohimbine mix should I use per dose? How many times per day? I assume that the total amount of Yohimbine is the only concern--not the delivery agents?

If not using DMSO, would two weeks on / two off / two on, etc. work?

Would it be better to concentrate on a smaller total area of the body, or spread it out more?

Thanks.

[arlowf]

Did anyone ever try this idea? What were your results? And Lok7y, whats up with the little "amused/no comment"? Was Big Cat way off on this one?

[arlowf]

Results

[VooDooMan]

Why do you guys presistantly engage in fallowing some one eles's words.
No offence bigcat, But Why doesnt any one do their own research

For example, Emu oil, its been found to be a great carrier into the depths of the skin, and resembles natural human oil, Perfectly legal, perfectly safe, and if not then you can always fall back on the DMSO idea....................

What do you think?

I have about 1 lbs of clenbuterol HCl, and I want to combine it with emu oil, What do you think about this idea?

If that doesnt work, could I potentially just use DMSO?

Thank you - take care

[2sweet]

So, a quick google for DMSO yields a site that sells a DMSO in 1lb tubs, and also roll-on types... But this paragraph is interesting :

"DMSO 99% purity. DMSO (Diamethyl Sulfoxide) is a solvent that has many uses and purposes. It is derived from wood pulp. It is a natural substance and is sold as a solvent. It is not sold for medicinal purposes! DMSO has many uses throughout the world."

NOT FOR MEDICINAL PURPOSES!

Wonder why.... Am I the only one that is worried by this?

I know this is an old post but for those reading it now the DMSO is used in eye drops so how bad can it be? I think not, I have used it in eye drops with great results so I personally believe it's safe. :)

[marcodeniro]

I found this thread of great interest. but no results in 4 years ????? Its like a time capsule that has been opened but nothings in there.

[Beejis60]

I know this is an old post but for those reading it now the DMSO is used in eye drops so how bad can it be? I think not, I have used it in eye drops with great results so I personally believe it's safe. :)

DMSO is said not to carry anything into your blood stream, just itself.

[An Inconvenient Bro]

I found this thread of great interest. but no results in 4 years ????? Its like a time capsule that has been opened but nothings in there.

yeah kinda funny how it directly parallels the OP isn't it