Nutrient Partitioning

[Fletch]

Hey Derek,
I've been reading all of spook's leptin writeups lately on Avant and noticed that Leptigen is something that is a staple in your contest prep supplementation. I've also found it to be popular for those participating in cutting diets where they cycle their carb intake.

My questions are...

1. What do you recommend for dosing Leptigen with the following carb cycle plan while in 7-8 weeks out from contest shape?

Monday: HIGH
Tuesday: LOW
Wednesday: NO
Thursday: HIGH
Friday: LOW
Saturday: LOW
Sunday: NO

2. What's your preworkout supplementation dosages look like?

Thanks!

- Fletch "Knowledge is power!"

[Beast]

I had my first taste of Leptigen while preparing for my second competition of the year. My results from it were outstanding. I recently used Leptigen while recomping (losing fat while gaining muscle) with good results.

Depending on your bf% and activity during those days
Monday: HIGH (1 scoop when you are normally hungriest)
Tuesday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Wednesday: NO (3-4 scoops depending on what you can afford)
Thursday: HIGH (1 scoop when you are normally hungriest)
Friday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Saturday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Sunday: NO (3-4 scoops depending on what you can afford)

Leptigen mimics a FED signal, meaning your body will think it is eating a meal without actually getting the calories. Therefore, it would be best to use it on your low or no carb days since you will be eating less. This will keep your metabolism elevates and decrease chances of lean tissue loss.

I am still tweaking the details, but I have a very good idea of my plan. Those who know me know I place a great deal of emphasis on workout nutrition.

High Carb Day
Pre Workout 5:45 AM
Vendetta 1 scoop
NitroJet 1 serving
ICE 2 scoops (10 grams)
Dextrose 2 TBSPs (20 grams)
Sucrose 1 TBSP (10 grams)
MASS 1 TBSP
GO 3 scoops

Preworkout Totals:
protein: 25.50
Carbs: 49.50

During Workout 6-7 AM

NitroJet 1 serving
ICE 4 scoops (20 grams)
Dextrose 4 TBSPs (40 grams)
Sucrose 1 TBSP (10 grams)
During Workout Totals:
Protein: 26.50
Carbs: 50.50

Post Workout 7:15 AM
Whey 1 Scoop
Quaker Oatmeal 1 cup
Banana 1 med
Honey 1 TBSP
MASS 1 TBSP
Meal# 3 Totals: 32.00 104.00 10.00 (p/c/f)

[Fletch]

Originally posted by Beast

Depending on your bf% and activity during those days
Monday: HIGH (1 scoop when you are normally hungriest)
Tuesday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Wednesday: NO (3-4 scoops depending on what you can afford)
Thursday: HIGH (1 scoop when you are normally hungriest)
Friday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Saturday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Sunday: NO (3-4 scoops depending on what you can afford)

...

High Carb Day
Pre Workout 5:45 AM
Vendetta 1 scoop
NitroJet 1 serving
ICE 2 scoops (10 grams)
Dextrose 2 TBSPs (20 grams)
Sucrose 1 TBSP (10 grams)
MASS 1 TBSP
GO 3 scoops

Preworkout Totals:
protein: 25.50
Carbs: 49.50

During Workout 6-7 AM

NitroJet 1 serving
ICE 4 scoops (20 grams)
Dextrose 4 TBSPs (40 grams)
Sucrose 1 TBSP (10 grams)
During Workout Totals:
Protein: 26.50
Carbs: 50.50

Post Workout 7:15 AM
Whey 1 Scoop
Quaker Oatmeal 1 cup
Banana 1 med
Honey 1 TBSP
MASS 1 TBSP
Meal# 3 Totals: 32.00 104.00 10.00 (p/c/f)

Awesome thanks Derek!

I've had great results with maintaining my strength and energy during contest dieting mixing Nitrojet, Kreataine-Ultra, and GO preworkout. (10g of each)

We have similar nutritional patterns for pre/during/post. :)

Thanks again

- Fletch

[Beast]

Most people underestimate nutrient timing and partitioning. But they will soon understand :D

[ShadowJack]

I would also consider adding in LeptiGen Mass on your high-carb days (only) when using a carb cycling diet. Try taking it maybe 2x per day with your largest carb meals on your high carb days. It should help "shuttle maximum nutrients towards muscle, and minimize fat gain.

I would think that LG Mass will be the best type of LG to use on those days, just like it would be for those doing a traditional refeed.

[ShaneG85]

I have two questions. How can you afford all of those supplements? How the hell did you get your own section?!?!:D

Shane

[Grrrr]

1) He's answered that else where. 2) Have you seen his pics?

[ShaneG85]

Originally posted by Grrrr
1) He's answered that else where. 2) Have you seen his pics?

Ok. I just saw that elsewhere. Yeah, i've seen his pics. He's a beast!!

Shane

[Beast]

Here's a pic of my calf that was taken at the Arnold.

[Not So Big]

Originally posted by Beast
Here's a pic of my calf that was taken at the Arnold. damn brotha i wish i had calves like that...

[Workout Maniac]

dude how big is your calf there?

[Beast]

18 inches

[15u]

Originally posted by Beast
Here's a pic of my calf that was taken at the Arnold.

ok now you are just bragging.....

:D

[Grrrr]

If I had calves like Beast i'd never wear pants.

[weightshead]

Originally posted by Beast
Most people underestimate nutrient timing and partitioning. But they will soon understand :D

how important is nutrient timing/partitioning on a bulking cycle?


at the moment im eating seven meals a day:

08:00 - 5 weetabix, 6 egg whites, 2 yolks
10:00 - MRP ~600 cals 50/40/10
12:00 - chicken and rice
14:00 - MRP ~600 cals 50/40/10
16:00 - chicken and rice
18:30 - MRP ~600 cals 50/40/10
21:00 - 35g whey protein

is this too simplistic? should i be eating more of my carbs in a morning? i've been seeing good results but i couldnt even say how many calories i eat in a day!

the meal times are all based on my first meal of the day if i get up a little later - and they have to stay flexible as im supposed to be studying!

[Harland]

i would suggest taking out at least one fo the mrp, and replace it with food. You should try to get your bodyweight in protein from food. Then supplement to get more.

[Beast]

I schedule just about all my carbs at breakfast and before and after workouts. Then have protein and good fats during the rest of the time. Some think a calorie is a calorie is a calorie and that in the end, it doesn't really matter. But from my results, as well as others, I feel there is more to it than energy in/energy out.

[weightshead]

Originally posted by Beast
I schedule just about all my carbs at breakfast and before and after workouts. Then have protein and good fats during the rest of the time. Some think a calorie is a calorie is a calorie and that in the end, it doesn't really matter. But from my results, as well as others, I feel there is more to it than energy in/energy out.

in an ideal world i wouldnt eat any MR shakes, but time constraints and other commitments dont allow.

derek,
do you have virtually all your carbs at breakfast and before/after workouts even when bulking? if so could you give me your typical days eating schedule or a link to it if you've posted it on the web before.

at the moment i find it difficult enough eating the carbs spread out. i couldnt imagine having to eat something like 120g carbs at breakfast! but as your so passionate about the whole thing and have obviously seen some impressive results, im interested in what your doing.

cheers

[Beast]

When Bulking
I workout in the morning, so I would do:
6 (pre-workout) Carbs
6-7 (During Workout) Carbs
7 (post workout) Carbs
8 Carb
10 carbs
1 Carbs
4- Pro + fat
7- Pro + fat
10- Pro + fat

I am not against combining carbs+fat, but it is easier this way.

[weightshead]

Originally posted by Beast
When Bulking
I workout in the morning, so I would do:
6 (pre-workout) Carbs
6-7 (During Workout) Carbs
7 (post workout) Carbs
8 Carb
10 carbs
1 Carbs
4- Pro + fat
7- Pro + fat
10- Pro + fat

I am not against combining carbs+fat, but it is easier this way.

just out of curiousity, with your carb meals (pre 1pm) do you have no complete proteins or do you just mean the caories mainly come from carbs?

also, i dont want to spawn a debate on whats the best way to combine/partition macronutrients but whats your personal reasoning for your current food partition?

thanks again

[Beast]

I have protein with all meals, most of the time 1/2 to a whole chicken breast.

When you exercise, you are increase Glut-4 translocation and blood flow to the working muscles. This means you will be sending more nutrients (i.e. glucose to muscle instead of fat). You are also using glycogen during the workout, some dietary carbs are needed to replenish it. Glut-4 receptor density stays evelated post workout, hence the reasoning for increase carb consumption at this time.
Insulin sensitivity is highest in the morning because you, most likely, went 6-8 hours without any food. So why not take advantage of it.

During the rest of the day, you a basically trying to keep insulin levels stable.

[Twin Peak]

Originally posted by Beast
Here's a pic of my calf that was taken at the Arnold.

That's my camera, biotch.

I notice you didn't post that bi shot. ;)

[Beast]

I didn't, I was too puny in it next to you. :(

[Jimmy_magix]

Originally posted by Beast
When Bulking
I workout in the morning, so I would do:
6 (pre-workout) Carbs
6-7 (During Workout) Carbs
7 (post workout) Carbs
8 Carb
10 carbs
1 Carbs
4- Pro + fat
7- Pro + fat
10- Pro + fat

I am not against combining carbs+fat, but it is easier this way.

thats pretty much what I do, though I work out at around 2pm so obviously the division is a little different. My question is what are the quanitites of carbs you consume in each carb meal?

[Beast]

Originally posted by Jimmy_magix
thats pretty much what I do, though I work out at around 2pm so obviously the division is a little different. My question is what are the quanitites of carbs you consume in each carb meal?

Depends on the day (whether a high or low carb day). So for example (High carb day- 400 carbs):
6 (pre-workout) Carbs- 75
6-7 (During Workout) Carbs- 75
7 (post workout) Carbs- 100
8 Carb- 50
10 carbs- 50
1- carbs- 50
4- Pro + fat
7- Pro + fat
10- Pro + fat

[wanttobearnold]

just curious for partioning how important is the protein for the pre workout and workout shakes. If I didn't have protein, would just adding the simple carbs before and after, be worth it?

[Jimmy_magix]

Originally posted by Beast
Depends on the day (whether a high or low carb day). So for example (High carb day- 400 carbs):
6 (pre-workout) Carbs- 75
6-7 (During Workout) Carbs- 75
7 (post workout) Carbs- 100
8 Carb- 50
10 carbs- 50
1- carbs- 50
4- Pro + fat
7- Pro + fat
10- Pro + fat

Cheers bro, thats pretty helpful, the only way I really differ is I gradually reduce the amounts in my three post training meals, a typical moderate/high carb day postworkout schedule goes something like:
PW1:70
PW2:50
PW3 30

The above gradual reduction worked better than a consistent intake for me, but it is interesting to see how well you are responding to such an approach.

[Beast]

Originally posted by wanttobearnold
just curious for partioning how important is the protein for the pre workout and workout shakes. If I didn't have protein, would just adding the simple carbs before and after, be worth it?

It would be better than nothing, but protein is very important. http://www.bodybuilding.com/teen/derek48.htm

[SavesTheMuscle]

I read that article. One work- AMAZING

I learned alot from that article.

[wanttobearnold]

yeh i read that article of yours. If I had extra money, I would buy some protein, the only problem is when you don't have a lot of money( I am a student) it is hard to convince my wife that it is worth it spending money on protein powder.

[Fletch]

Originally posted by wanttobearnold
yeh i read that article of yours. If I had extra money, I would buy some protein, the only problem is when you don't have a lot of money( I am a student) it is hard to convince my wife that it is worth it spending money on protein powder.

Protein powder is cheaper than eating that amount of protein in whole food.

5 lb (2270g) container of protein = 75 servings at 30g apiece. If the 5 lb protein container costs $25 that comes out to

$0.33 per serving

A can of tuna is one of the least expensive whole food protein sources and typically costs between $0.54 - $0.57.

In conclusion, protein powder is cheaper than tuna per serving size.

That should help convince your wife that the purchase would not be a waste. :)

- Fletch "MATH is POWER"

[ClassClown]

Originally posted by Grrrr
If I had calves like Beast i'd never wear pants.

dude if i had a body like derek i would walk around in Hanes all day

[wanttobearnold]

Yeh I have told her that, though here in canada it is closer to .6 to .65 per serving. But she thinks that whole food is better and that I don't need the powder. Once I start working full-time for the summer,I might be able to saveup,but there isn't any use making a big deal about it. As Dr. Phil says: "If mama ain't happy than ain't nobody happy." :)

[Starsky]

Originally posted by wanttobearnold
Yeh I have told her that, though here in canada it is closer to .6 to .65 per serving. But she thinks that whole food is better and that I don't need the powder. Once I start working full-time for the summer,I might be able to saveup,but there isn't any use making a big deal about it. As Dr. Phil says: "If mama ain't happy than ain't nobody happy." :)


You can got ahold of 5 lbs of protein for $20-25. Unless you live in garbage can, that shouldn't be too much. Give up something else and get it.

[strikeanywhere]

hey derek, i just read that article you wrote and i was wondering how much protein is necessary for glucagon to be released? in particular i was wondering how much of a difference it would make taking BCAA and EAA in comparison to just taking whey protein. as far as i can see, because hydrolyzed whey is ~20% BCAA and ~50% EAA, you would receive all the essential amino acids. the only problem is that the extra NEAA would possibly cause glucagon to be released. so, would this glucagon affect the absorption of the EAA and BCAA? i understand that the NEAA isn't necessary but does it actually present that much of a problem including it?

[Beast]

I'll have to brush back up on glucagon some, but I doubt you will have any problems with it with hydrolyzed whey, mainly because hydro whey is very fast acting and will cause some insulin release. If you have carbs with this, it shouldn't matter.

In the end of the whole EAA/NEAA debate, it all comes down to whether or not you feel supplementing with free form amino acids is more beneficial than whey. There is not enough direct data to say 100% yes or no in either case. I myself, feel spending a little extra on free form BCAA and EAA is worth. Others don't. In the end, it's all up to you.

[Zen_Lifter]

.

[Sixpack]

What if u are doing cardio in the AM and lifting in the PM how would the set up be then I usually split up my workouts , Lets say on a high carb day, Would u get the majority of your carbs before the PM lifting
Thanks
Sixpack


Originally posted by Beast
When Bulking
I workout in the morning, so I would do:
6 (pre-workout) Carbs
6-7 (During Workout) Carbs
7 (post workout) Carbs
8 Carb
10 carbs
1 Carbs
4- Pro + fat
7- Pro + fat
10- Pro + fat

I am not against combining carbs+fat, but it is easier this way.

[Beast]

The answer is right in front of you.

[Sixpack]

IT did not see if u were doing both cardio and lifting on that day on your 15 weeks out diet it has u doing cardio on the evening thus just taking in protein fat your 3 meals prior to cardio then taking in 1/2 cup oats postcardio. Are u counting your postcardio oats a carb meal?
Sixpack

[meathead198]

Derek, Im starting TP PT and will be doing 4 high carb days, all on workout days. The only thing is, I am splitting the workouts into AM an PM. How would you advise I work the partition? All figures are (prot/carb/fat)

6:30 30/135/10=750 Carb
7:30 during/post workout 1 15/30/0=180
8:30 30/125/0=620 Carb
11:00 30/5/10=230 Prot + Fat
14:00 30/125/10=710 Carb
15:30 during/post workout 1 15/30/0=180
17:30 30/125/5=710 Carb
21:00 30/0/10=210 Prot + Fat

totals 210/575/45=3545

I will have 4 high carb days per week= surplus of 3800(maintenance=2600)

Take of of that 1 no carb day -1000 deficit
and 2 low carb days 2x -500 = -1000 deficit

This gives me +1800cals per week surplus. So I should gain roughly 0.5lbs per week. (I may bump this up following the last week of each phase)


How does that all look?

[Beast]

Looks good.

[Troutwine]

I had my first taste of Leptigen while preparing for my second competition of the year. My results from it were outstanding. I recently used Leptigen while recomping (losing fat while gaining muscle) with good results.

Depending on your bf% and activity during those days
Monday: HIGH (1 scoop when you are normally hungriest)
Tuesday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Wednesday: NO (3-4 scoops depending on what you can afford)
Thursday: HIGH (1 scoop when you are normally hungriest)
Friday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Saturday: LOW (3 scoops breakfast, preworkout, before bed)
Sunday: NO (3-4 scoops depending on what you can afford)

Leptigen mimics a FED signal, meaning your body will think it is eating a meal without actually getting the calories. Therefore, it would be best to use it on your low or no carb days since you will be eating less. This will keep your metabolism elevates and decrease chances of lean tissue loss.

I am still tweaking the details, but I have a very good idea of my plan. Those who know me know I place a great deal of emphasis on workout nutrition.

High Carb Day
Pre Workout 5:45 AM
Vendetta 1 scoop
NitroJet 1 serving
ICE 2 scoops (10 grams)
Dextrose 2 TBSPs (20 grams)
Sucrose 1 TBSP (10 grams)
MASS 1 TBSP
GO 3 scoops

Preworkout Totals:
protein: 25.50
Carbs: 49.50

During Workout 6-7 AM

NitroJet 1 serving
ICE 4 scoops (20 grams)
Dextrose 4 TBSPs (40 grams)
Sucrose 1 TBSP (10 grams)
During Workout Totals:
Protein: 26.50
Carbs: 50.50

Post Workout 7:15 AM
Whey 1 Scoop
Quaker Oatmeal 1 cup
Banana 1 med
Honey 1 TBSP
MASS 1 TBSP
Meal# 3 Totals: 32.00 104.00 10.00 (p/c/f)
gr8 info! thanks :)

[TDE]

Beast that leptigen thing sounds interesting. Can you get bloodwork done to monitor your cortisol/test levels?

[Lando33]

Beast that leptigen thing sounds interesting. Can you get bloodwork done to monitor your cortisol/test levels?

leptigen is no longer in production. This post was almost 5 years ago.