Balco/thg Rat Is Uncovered!!!

[brucekneller]

Bodybuilder Key Informant in Steroid Probe
Thu Mar 11, 2004 06:19 PM ET
By Adam Tanner
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A bodybuilder and former steroid dealer with a criminal record and past financial troubles may have provided the government key clues in the global sports steroid scandal, people close to the case say.
The story of Ron Kramer, 40, provides insight on a U.S. government probe into the murky world of performance enhancement drugs that has prompted Congressional hearings and concern from President Bush.
According to court papers, Kramer has aided investigators as an informant on steroids in the past. Although he has not been named in the latest steroid indictments, two people close to the case say he helped the government in its probe of BALCO, a San Francisco-area nutritional laboratory that officials say provided steroids to some top athletes.
Baseball stars Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi were among athletes who testified before a grand jury probing BALCO, although no athletes have been charged.
Kramer's relationship with drug investigators stems from his own troubles with the law.
The beefy New York native was a bodybuilder and gym owner living south of San Francisco in 1997 when he was arrested on charges related to steroids possession after mailing himself a package from Spain.
After initially claiming he was injecting testosterone to treat impotency, he pleaded guilty to unlawful possession of anabolic steroids for purpose of sale in 1997 and declared personal bankruptcy, court documents show.
Sentenced to six months in prison and three years probation, Kramer violated his probation conditions and was arrested again in 2000 on new steroid charges.
BODY-BUILDING CONTESTS
Court documents from that case show that Kramer, who had organized bodybuilding contests in San Francisco, had started working with the San Mateo County Narcotics Task Force (NTF).
"Following his arrest on the new case and while both matters were pending, the defendant agreed to work with NTF in its efforts to infiltrate the local body-building community in regards to the manufacture, sale and/or use of anabolic steroids, growth hormones and other illegal substances," local district attorney James Fox wrote in an April 2001 filing.
"Mr. Kramer commenced his work with NTF purely for reasons of self-preservation -- to avoid being sentenced to state prison."
According to filings by his attorneys, Kramer worked hard to provide the government with insider tips. "Defendant has cooperated not just minimally, but to a super-human extent with the NTF in assisting them to investigate and prosecute steroid related offenses of which they previously had almost no working understanding," attorney Geoffrey Carr wrote.
The court eventually dismissed the charges against Kramer and the following year investigators started a probe of BALCO, a nutritional lab in the same area south of San Francisco suspected of providing steroids to professional athletes.
In February 2004, after months of secret testimony from top athletes, a federal grand jury indicted the two top officials at BALCO, Bonds's personal trainer Greg Anderson and track and field coach Remi Korchemny.
According to a September 2003 affidavit, a confidential informant was key in building the case against Anderson, who lived a mile away from Kramer. The affidavit does not name the informant, but two people involved in the case told Reuters it was Kramer.
STEROIDS AND BASEBALL
The bodybuilder's history corresponds to the details given in the affidavit, including that he had pleaded guilty to state felony steroid distribution charges a few years previously and had since been providing information to the NTF.
The informant's tips prompted the government to monitor BALCO, examine its medical waste investigate it in other ways.
An affidavit in the case said a narcotics task force officer "had received information from a confidential informant that Greg Anderson is well known within the 'steroid community' as a steroid dealer and that his steroid clients included professional baseball players."
The San Francisco Chronicle reported last week that the government was told Bonds and other baseball stars such as Giambi and Gary Sheffield had received steroids.
The scandal has intensified questions about Bonds, who holds the single-season home run record and is poised as soon as next month to overtake Willie Mays for third place in all time American baseball home runs. He denies taking steroids.
Reached by telephone in Arizona where he runs a nutritional supplement business, Kramer would not say whether or not he was the informant named in the BALCO documents.
"Anything that I may or may have not told anybody is already been pretty much out there and more than what I have known has already come to surface," he said. "So it's really not going to do me any good to be involved in this anymore. There is nothing I can add that hasn't been exploited."
He was however critical of the lawyers for indicted BALCO officials Victor Conte and James Valente.
"The only defense is deny, deny, deny, lie a little more and then deny some more. So what do you want them to say, their clients are guilty? If they said their clients are guilty the lawyers aren't going to make any money," he said.

[GUNZOFNAVARONE]

Originally posted by bruce*******
Bodybuilder Key Informant in Steroid Probe
Thu Mar 11, 2004 06:19 PM ET
By Adam Tanner
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A bodybuilder and former steroid dealer with a criminal record and past financial troubles may have provided the government key clues in the global sports steroid scandal, people close to the case say.
The story of Ron Kramer, 40, provides insight on a U.S. government probe into the murky world of performance enhancement drugs that has prompted Congressional hearings and concern from President Bush.
According to court papers, Kramer has aided investigators as an informant on steroids in the past. Although he has not been named in the latest steroid indictments, two people close to the case say he helped the government in its probe of BALCO, a San Francisco-area nutritional laboratory that officials say provided steroids to some top athletes.
Baseball stars Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi were among athletes who testified before a grand jury probing BALCO, although no athletes have been charged.
Kramer's relationship with drug investigators stems from his own troubles with the law.
The beefy New York native was a bodybuilder and gym owner living south of San Francisco in 1997 when he was arrested on charges related to steroids possession after mailing himself a package from Spain.
After initially claiming he was injecting testosterone to treat impotency, he pleaded guilty to unlawful possession of anabolic steroids for purpose of sale in 1997 and declared personal bankruptcy, court documents show.
Sentenced to six months in prison and three years probation, Kramer violated his probation conditions and was arrested again in 2000 on new steroid charges.
BODY-BUILDING CONTESTS
Court documents from that case show that Kramer, who had organized bodybuilding contests in San Francisco, had started working with the San Mateo County Narcotics Task Force (NTF).
"Following his arrest on the new case and while both matters were pending, the defendant agreed to work with NTF in its efforts to infiltrate the local body-building community in regards to the manufacture, sale and/or use of anabolic steroids, growth hormones and other illegal substances," local district attorney James Fox wrote in an April 2001 filing.
"Mr. Kramer commenced his work with NTF purely for reasons of self-preservation -- to avoid being sentenced to state prison."
According to filings by his attorneys, Kramer worked hard to provide the government with insider tips. "Defendant has cooperated not just minimally, but to a super-human extent with the NTF in assisting them to investigate and prosecute steroid related offenses of which they previously had almost no working understanding," attorney Geoffrey Carr wrote.
The court eventually dismissed the charges against Kramer and the following year investigators started a probe of BALCO, a nutritional lab in the same area south of San Francisco suspected of providing steroids to professional athletes.
In February 2004, after months of secret testimony from top athletes, a federal grand jury indicted the two top officials at BALCO, Bonds's personal trainer Greg Anderson and track and field coach Remi Korchemny.
According to a September 2003 affidavit, a confidential informant was key in building the case against Anderson, who lived a mile away from Kramer. The affidavit does not name the informant, but two people involved in the case told Reuters it was Kramer.
STEROIDS AND BASEBALL
The bodybuilder's history corresponds to the details given in the affidavit, including that he had pleaded guilty to state felony steroid distribution charges a few years previously and had since been providing information to the NTF.
The informant's tips prompted the government to monitor BALCO, examine its medical waste investigate it in other ways.
An affidavit in the case said a narcotics task force officer "had received information from a confidential informant that Greg Anderson is well known within the 'steroid community' as a steroid dealer and that his steroid clients included professional baseball players."
The San Francisco Chronicle reported last week that the government was told Bonds and other baseball stars such as Giambi and Gary Sheffield had received steroids.
The scandal has intensified questions about Bonds, who holds the single-season home run record and is poised as soon as next month to overtake Willie Mays for third place in all time American baseball home runs. He denies taking steroids.
Reached by telephone in Arizona where he runs a nutritional supplement business, Kramer would not say whether or not he was the informant named in the BALCO documents.
"Anything that I may or may have not told anybody is already been pretty much out there and more than what I have known has already come to surface," he said. "So it's really not going to do me any good to be involved in this anymore. There is nothing I can add that hasn't been exploited."
He was however critical of the lawyers for indicted BALCO officials Victor Conte and James Valente.
"The only defense is deny, deny, deny, lie a little more and then deny some more. So what do you want them to say, their clients are guilty? If they said their clients are guilty the lawyers aren't going to make any money," he said.

if it looks like a rat, smells like a rat, and moves like a rat, it most likely is a RAT. piece of sh*t!

[Tamacracker]

That son of a bitch! Seriously if I knew the guy, I'd take the bat to the dome in his sleep. :) that'll put a criminal to rest anyways!

[Sir Foxx]

Well he avoided prison, but now most likely be killed. What an idiot. He thinks that someone isn't going to retaliate on his punk ass?

[buddha]

sing, birdie, sing.

[BuckWyld]

Originally posted by Sir Foxx
Well he avoided prison, but now most likely be killed. What an idiot. He thinks that someone isn't going to retaliate on his punk ass?

i really doubt he is going to get killed

[wasntme]

Originally posted by Sir Foxx
Well he avoided prison, but now most likely be killed. What an idiot. He thinks that someone isn't going to retaliate on his punk ass?

wow,, i think your taking it a little to serioulsy here.

[bgzee]

Originally posted by wasntme
wow,, i think your taking it a little to serioulsy here.

Ratting a bunch of people to save your own ass won't exactly make you a very likeable guy. There is a good chance someone would try and take revenge onhim.

[pogue]

I don't think much killing goes on for steroid narcs :)

[musclescientist]

Originally posted by bruce*******
Bodybuilder Key Informant in Steroid Probe
Thu Mar 11, 2004 06:19 PM ET
By Adam Tanner
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A bodybuilder and former steroid dealer with a criminal record and past financial troubles may have provided the government key clues in the global sports steroid scandal, people close to the case say.
The story of Ron Kramer, 40, provides insight on a U.S. government probe into the murky world of performance enhancement drugs that has prompted Congressional hearings and concern from President Bush.
According to court papers, Kramer has aided investigators as an informant on steroids in the past. Although he has not been named in the latest steroid indictments, two people close to the case say he helped the government in its probe of BALCO, a San Francisco-area nutritional laboratory that officials say provided steroids to some top athletes.
Baseball stars Barry Bonds and Jason Giambi were among athletes who testified before a grand jury probing BALCO, although no athletes have been charged.
Kramer's relationship with drug investigators stems from his own troubles with the law.
The beefy New York native was a bodybuilder and gym owner living south of San Francisco in 1997 when he was arrested on charges related to steroids possession after mailing himself a package from Spain.
After initially claiming he was injecting testosterone to treat impotency, he pleaded guilty to unlawful possession of anabolic steroids for purpose of sale in 1997 and declared personal bankruptcy, court documents show.
Sentenced to six months in prison and three years probation, Kramer violated his probation conditions and was arrested again in 2000 on new steroid charges.
BODY-BUILDING CONTESTS
Court documents from that case show that Kramer, who had organized bodybuilding contests in San Francisco, had started working with the San Mateo County Narcotics Task Force (NTF).
"Following his arrest on the new case and while both matters were pending, the defendant agreed to work with NTF in its efforts to infiltrate the local body-building community in regards to the manufacture, sale and/or use of anabolic steroids, growth hormones and other illegal substances," local district attorney James Fox wrote in an April 2001 filing.
"Mr. Kramer commenced his work with NTF purely for reasons of self-preservation -- to avoid being sentenced to state prison."
According to filings by his attorneys, Kramer worked hard to provide the government with insider tips. "Defendant has cooperated not just minimally, but to a super-human extent with the NTF in assisting them to investigate and prosecute steroid related offenses of which they previously had almost no working understanding," attorney Geoffrey Carr wrote.
The court eventually dismissed the charges against Kramer and the following year investigators started a probe of BALCO, a nutritional lab in the same area south of San Francisco suspected of providing steroids to professional athletes.
In February 2004, after months of secret testimony from top athletes, a federal grand jury indicted the two top officials at BALCO, Bonds's personal trainer Greg Anderson and track and field coach Remi Korchemny.
According to a September 2003 affidavit, a confidential informant was key in building the case against Anderson, who lived a mile away from Kramer. The affidavit does not name the informant, but two people involved in the case told Reuters it was Kramer.
STEROIDS AND BASEBALL
The bodybuilder's history corresponds to the details given in the affidavit, including that he had pleaded guilty to state felony steroid distribution charges a few years previously and had since been providing information to the NTF.
The informant's tips prompted the government to monitor BALCO, examine its medical waste investigate it in other ways.
An affidavit in the case said a narcotics task force officer "had received information from a confidential informant that Greg Anderson is well known within the 'steroid community' as a steroid dealer and that his steroid clients included professional baseball players."
The San Francisco Chronicle reported last week that the government was told Bonds and other baseball stars such as Giambi and Gary Sheffield had received steroids.
The scandal has intensified questions about Bonds, who holds the single-season home run record and is poised as soon as next month to overtake Willie Mays for third place in all time American baseball home runs. He denies taking steroids.
Reached by telephone in Arizona where he runs a nutritional supplement business, Kramer would not say whether or not he was the informant named in the BALCO documents.
"Anything that I may or may have not told anybody is already been pretty much out there and more than what I have known has already come to surface," he said. "So it's really not going to do me any good to be involved in this anymore. There is nothing I can add that hasn't been exploited."
He was however critical of the lawyers for indicted BALCO officials Victor Conte and James Valente.
"The only defense is deny, deny, deny, lie a little more and then deny some more. So what do you want them to say, their clients are guilty? If they said their clients are guilty the lawyers aren't going to make any money," he said.

Is he not the guy that owns Fitness Enterprise and Kilosports?

[pu12en12g]

Wow that guy is really ****ed now.

[mimo]

Originally posted by pogue
I don't think much killing goes on for steroid narcs :)

can you even imagine how much money those people lost because this guy talked?
killing him is definetely an option to consider

[Sir Foxx]

Exactly, you're talking about someone's multi-million dollar sports career or the owner's of a mult-million dollar supplement company, or someone's Olympic dream. If people get whacked for a pair of tennis shoes, you better believe someone is coming up with a plan for this moron.

[wojo]

gimme a break to all u naive people posting if he doesnt get killed he will wish he had been after some people get done ith him..he better invest in a beard and some glasses and get his ass to canada asap

[brucekneller]

Nope. I think he owns Thermolife.



Originally posted by musclescientist
Is he not the guy that owns Fitness Enterprise and Kilosports?

[PumpingBricks]

Looks like Mr. Kramer is up **** creek.
http://www.shawnray.net/YaBBImages/smilies/behead.gif

[Par Deus]

Originally posted by bruce*******
Nope. I think he owns Thermolife.

Kramer used to be tight with Martin at Kilo, but they have been on the outs for 2 years.

I have been told that Kramer is shady as **** by our mutual friend Ryan Johnson for 2 years.

Obviously, he took shady as **** to a whole new level.

For the kids out there -- YOU DO NOT ROLL-OVER

You don't ****ing do it.

[mimo]

Originally posted by wojo
gimme a break to all u naive people posting if he doesnt get killed he will wish he had been after some people get done ith him..he better invest in a beard and some glasses and get his ass to canada asap


LMAO

[McBurly]

I can't beleive he ratted them out...

[Par Deus]

What kind of ****ing deal do you make where you get revealed as a rat in the press??

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Tamacracker
That son of a bitch! Seriously if I knew the guy, I'd take the bat to the dome in his sleep. :) that'll put a criminal to rest anyways!


he is pretty well known in the supplement industry.

you better get him while he is sleeping. cuz he is one of the scariest motherf*ckers you will ever meet

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by pogue
I don't think much killing goes on for steroid narcs :)


you are not seeing the big picture here kiddo

possibly ruining the careers and affecting the reputations of athletes worth in total hundreds of millions of dollars. Causing huge problems for major league baseball (a billion dollar industry) NOt to mention god knows what sort of repurcussions we do not yet know about.


i suggest we start a dead pool

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by musclescientist
Is he not the guy that owns Fitness Enterprise and Kilosports?


As a matter of fact, that guy just recently died.

ooh, this is getting weird

[afrolov]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
i suggest we start a dead pool


Two months and nine days. Death through liver failure.

I got a "hunch".

[Too swole]

This cocksucking rat will get what he deserves

[Par Deus]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
he is pretty well known in the supplement industry.

you better get him while he is sleeping. cuz he is one of the scariest motherf*ckers you will ever meet

He's a big ****er.

Shaved head.

Looks like me, except jacked and not so pretty.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by Too swole
This cocksucking rat will get what he deserves

I really only met him once in person (although i had seen him walking around many times), at the olympia in 2001. He invited me over to a table and i had a few drinks with him and his posse.

he had a group of about 8-10 big ass guys who looked like they broke kneecaps for a living. They were diverse - some were mafioso looking, some looked like Notorious B.I.G., some biker etc

ron himself was decked out pimp like with gold chains, shiny polyester shirt (painted on of course), doo rag or something, wrap around sunglasses, and a long chin goatee thing. He looked like 250-275 pounds, hardly any fat, musclebound, and his skin looked like a dermatologists nightmare. He had a voice like a pro wrestler yelling into the microphone. in fact, everything about him screamed pro wrestler.

He was actually quite nice to me, but he had a look like at any second he might turn on me and rip my head off. neck veins precariously protruded and his muscles were in a constant state of contraction.

he was not someone you take into the parlor for tea and biscuits

[buddha]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
I really only met him once in person (although i had seen him walking around many times), at the olympia in 2001. He invited me over to a table and i had a few drinks with him and his posse.

he had a group of about 8-10 big ass guys who looked like they broke kneecaps for a living. They were diverse - some were mafioso looking, some looked like Notorious B.I.G., some biker etc

ron himself was decked out pimp like with gold chains, shiny polyester shirt (painted on of course), doo rag or something, wrap around sunglasses, and a long chin goatee thing. He looked like 250-275 pounds, hardly any fat, musclebound, and his skin looked like a dermatologists nightmare. He had a voice like a pro wrestler yelling into the microphone. in fact, everything about him screamed pro wrestler.

He was actually quite nice to me, but he had a look like at any second he might turn on me and rip my head off. neck veins precariously protruded and his muscles were in a constant state of contraction.

he was not someone you take into the parlor for tea and biscuits

need to send over some pipe hittin brothers with a pair of plyers and a blowtorch.

[bpi]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
I really only met him once in person (although i had seen him walking around many times), at the olympia in 2001. He invited me over to a table and i had a few drinks with him and his posse.

he had a group of about 8-10 big ass guys who looked like they broke kneecaps for a living. They were diverse - some were mafioso looking, some looked like Notorious B.I.G., some biker etc

ron himself was decked out pimp like with gold chains, shiny polyester shirt (painted on of course), doo rag or something, wrap around sunglasses, and a long chin goatee thing. He looked like 250-275 pounds, hardly any fat, musclebound, and his skin looked like a dermatologists nightmare. He had a voice like a pro wrestler yelling into the microphone. in fact, everything about him screamed pro wrestler.

He was actually quite nice to me, but he had a look like at any second he might turn on me and rip my head off. neck veins precariously protruded and his muscles were in a constant state of contraction.

he was not someone you take into the parlor for tea and biscuits

PA you are quite the story teller! You are right though, I did find his pink patent leather pants frightening.

[mimo]

no matter how scary he is,he shouldnt mess with a multi-million dollar businness. with only a fraction of a million,you could find a lot of guys willing to kill this dude.in fact,i think this is what is going to happen.
if this guy had ruined my career and i was not able to get multi-million dollar endorsements,i would be very angry and would make sure that he wouldnt do that again

[mimo]

and revealing his name in the press wasnt very smart. as a matter of fact,this is just asking for something to happen....

[brucekneller]

He's also 5'7". I don't think a steel pipe/piece of concrete conduit or a baseball bat is going to be frightened of this guy. I give him 2 months before he finds out where Jimmy Hoffa is.

BK



Originally posted by Par Deus
He's a big ****er.

Shaved head.

Looks like me, except jacked and not so pretty.

[brucekneller]

.50 cal BMG from 2000 yards is my guess. Caleb, this guy did have a huge falling out with Martin at Kilosports like 2 years ago.
The word on the street is Mr. Kramer is a real piece of work.

I wonder why they released his name to the press though? I mean, if he was a DEA rat/mole/cocksucking ****, and it appears he was and he was exceptionally diligent about it, why did they cut him loose like this? I mean, it is obvious they cut him loose, or they would have still protected his ID. Something shady is going down here, why would his handlers let this happen?

Well, I do concur with the general thought pattern here. He did monster damage to MLB, the US Olympic Team, possibly the NFL and who knows what. You think Barry Bonds or Jason Giambi or any of the other million dollar star athletes affected by this ****storm in a negative way are not gonna want payback? This scandal could really **** MLB badly. Not only that, but if I was Victor Conte, I'd be thinking about how I could put Mr. Kramer into a wood chipper without getting caught and having an alibi.
And Victor is a guy you probably don't want to mess with either.


I hate rats. So I won't shed a ****ing tear when this guy disappears or his bloated body is pulled out of some lake after being fish food for 8-12 months.


BK




Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
I really only met him once in person (although i had seen him walking around many times), at the olympia in 2001. He invited me over to a table and i had a few drinks with him and his posse.

he had a group of about 8-10 big ass guys who looked like they broke kneecaps for a living. They were diverse - some were mafioso looking, some looked like Notorious B.I.G., some biker etc

ron himself was decked out pimp like with gold chains, shiny polyester shirt (painted on of course), doo rag or something, wrap around sunglasses, and a long chin goatee thing. He looked like 250-275 pounds, hardly any fat, musclebound, and his skin looked like a dermatologists nightmare. He had a voice like a pro wrestler yelling into the microphone. in fact, everything about him screamed pro wrestler.

He was actually quite nice to me, but he had a look like at any second he might turn on me and rip my head off. neck veins precariously protruded and his muscles were in a constant state of contraction.

he was not someone you take into the parlor for tea and biscuits

[buddha]

Originally posted by bruce*******
.50 cal BMG from 2000 yards is my guess. Caleb, this guy did have a huge falling out with Martin at Kilosports like 2 years ago.
The word on the street is Mr. Kramer is a real piece of work.

I wonder why they released his name to the press though? I mean, if he was a DEA rat/mole/cocksucking ****, and it appears he was and he was exceptionally diligent about it, why did they cut him loose like this? I mean, it is obvious they cut him loose, or they would have still protected his ID. Something shady is going down here, why would his handlers let this happen?

That is a good point. Feds normally go to extraordinary lengths to keep sources and CI's protected, especially if the information they provide is good. Unless it was his decision or something, which we be very odd.

2000 yards...that would be most impressive!

[Sir Foxx]

This guy is going to be fed to the pigs ala Snatch.

[RobertW]

I do not know the facts so I will not coment on what Ron did or did not do, all I know is that in any business I have had with Ron he has always been 100% upfront and provided us with a great service.

As for these so called professional athletes, its about time they came clean. I do not have a problem with them taking performance drugs, I just want them to be honest about it....it may be good for the general public to find out what our sporting hero's really do.....

[mimo]

Originally posted by RobertW
I do not know the facts so I will not coment on what Ron did or did not do, all I know is that in any business I have had with Ron he has always been 100% upfront and provided us with a great service.

As for these so called professional athletes, its about time they came clean. I do not have a problem with them taking performance drugs, I just want them to be honest about it....it may be good for the general public to find out what our sporting hero's really do.....

maybe the athletes could be honest about what they take to enhance their performance,but what do you think their sponsors would do to them? athletes would say bye-bye to multi-million dollar endorsements because they were no longer an example for the kids who buy their stuff.
but i agree with you about honesty in using some kind of drugs.

[RobertW]

Originally posted by mimo
maybe the athletes could be honest about what they take to enhance their performance,but what do you think their sponsors would do to them? athletes would say bye-bye to multi-million dollar endorsements because they were no longer an example for the kids who buy their stuff.
but i agree with you about honesty in using some kind of drugs.

I am afraid this is the double standard world we live in Nike/Coke want their sponsored athletes to be breaking world records, but they don't want to know what drugs had to be taken to break these records....Then when it does get out everyone try's to blame the supplement industry "oh it was some contaminated Protein powder I took"......

[mimo]

Originally posted by RobertW
"oh it was some contaminated Protein powder I took"......

i think this happens because the athletes dont want to lose their contracts by saying they used performance enhancing drugs,so they point the finger at an industry that is easy to blame,due to the ignorance shown by the majority of people,regarding supplements and their correct usage.

[RobertW]

Originally posted by mimo
i think this happens because the athletes dont want to lose their contracts by saying they used performance enhancing drugs,so they point the finger at an industry that is easy to blame,due to the ignorance shown by the majority of people,regarding supplements and their correct usage.

Exactly right.....so I do not think these pro athletes can have a problem or complain when someone from the supplement industry points out it is actually DRUGS that these guys are taking and NOT supplements.....

[mimo]

Originally posted by RobertW
Exactly right.....so I do not think these pro athletes can have a problem or complain when someone from the supplement industry points out it is actually DRUGS that these guys are taking and NOT supplements.....

it is weird that people dont get this. isnt it weird that after a scandal involving drug testing or some kind of new drug discovered,the atheteS marks decrease?

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by mimo
i think this happens because the athletes dont want to lose their contracts by saying they used performance enhancing drugs,so they point the finger at an industry that is easy to blame,due to the ignorance shown by the majority of people,regarding supplements and their correct usage.


there actually is/was a serious issue with protein powder (and other supplement) contamination and false positives

[NAP_s_king]

Would u like to elaborate on that Patrick? An example would be nice, I'd like to know...
thanks!

ESPECIALLY on the protein powder thing...

[buddha]

one last year involved an NFL player that took a dietary supplement, tested positive for nandrolone metabolites and got a multiple game suspension.

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/6678859

some older stuff:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/2744995.stm

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97463&highlight=contamination

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by NAP's_king
Would u like to elaborate on that Patrick? An example would be nice, I'd like to know...
thanks!

ESPECIALLY on the protein powder thing...


there have been over 100 cases of false nandrolone positives due to supplements over a course of 4 years or so

one of the most well known ones involved a US bobsledder during the 2002 olympics. also, a football player. both these involved the use of a protein powder that is heavily advertised and is made by a company based in canada

sloppy manufacturing leading to cross contamination of prohormone with non prohormone products was the culprit

[NAP_s_king]

Oh, THAT Canadian company...the one with a creatine that 11-ty BILLION times better than anything else...I see... :)

Thanks

PS. So that's why Cormier and Cutler are so huge now...lol :)

[mimo]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
there actually is/was a serious issue with protein powder (and other supplement) contamination and false positives

what i was trying to say is that due to the lack of knowledge shown by most people,the supp industry became an easy target and an easy way out for the athletes that test positive on performance enhancing drugs. how many athletes who test positive,have the honesty to admit the usage of drugs? of course there are the ignorant ones who take anything they are given and dont even know what it is or what it does.they just want to succeed,no matter what

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by mimo
what i was trying to say is that due to the lack of knowledge shown by most people,the supp industry became an easy target and an easy way out for the athletes that test positive on performance enhancing drugs. how many athletes who test positive,have the honesty to admit the usage of drugs? of course there are the ignorant ones who take anything they are given and dont even know what it is or what it does.they just want to succeed,no matter what



to admit the use of drugs means the end of these athlete's careers in most instances.

[mimo]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
to admit the use of drugs means the end of these athlete's careers in most instances.

so they point their finger at someone else besides them. there are risks involved in taking drugs and they should be able to deal with it. they are responsible for their actions,unless its proven that it was a mistake and lab tests prove that the given supplement was contaminated.in this case,the manufacturing company would have to be severely punished for the lack competence.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by mimo
so they point their finger at someone else besides them. there are risks involved in taking drugs and they should be able to deal with it. they are responsible for their actions,unless its proven that it was a mistake and lab tests prove that the given supplement was contaminated.in this case,the manufacturing company would have to be severely punished for the lack competence.



I don't think you understand. In every case i know of, supplement contamination actually WAS the cause of the positive. they were not lying and placing blame elsewhere

[mimo]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
I don't think you understand. In every case i know of, supplement contamination actually WAS the cause of the positive. they were not lying and placing blame elsewhere

oh,ok. well,in europe its quite usual to see athletes get caught because of nandrolone usage and then put the blame on anyone else ,like doctors or supp companies.this happened alot of times with soccer players.of course they got suspended,despite their arguments

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by mimo
oh,ok. well,in europe its quite usual to see athletes get caught because of nandrolone usage and then put the blame on anyone else ,like doctors or supp companies.this happened alot of times with soccer players.of course they got suspended,despite their arguments


the athletes i am talking about are ones under the jurisdiction of the world anti-doping agency and its underlings

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by mimo
oh,ok. well,in europe its quite usual to see athletes get caught because of nandrolone usage and then put the blame on anyone else ,like doctors or supp companies.this happened alot of times with soccer players.of course they got suspended,despite their arguments


soccer players are brain dead anyway, so they don't count

any athlete who desired to cheat and had any intelligence at all would never take nandrolone anyway

[mimo]

Originally posted by Patrick Arnold
soccer players are brain dead anyway, so they don't count

any athlete who desired to cheat and had any intelligence at all would never take nandrolone anyway

i couldnt agree more

[Sir Foxx]

I have to take issue with what you said RobertW. If you think athletes need to come clean on what they use, then you need to inform your employer, spouse, all family members and friends, insurance companies, Drs, of what you use and take. Everything. Trust me, it won't matter what it is, legal or illegal, you will get an uninformed bias developing against you. You might even be fired from your job, or have your insurance drop you. These people(athletes) are trying to do the best they can but because of the witch hunt currently going on, they are being lumped in with heroin and crack addicts. If an athlete wants to use performance enhancing drugs, so be it. Its not different than having access to better equipment to train or access to better food to fuel the body. Look at the US swim team. They have those new body suits that shave seconds off their times, giving them an unfair advantage over their opponents who either can't afford the suits or develop the technology, but I don't hear anyone calling them cheats.

[mimo]

Originally posted by Sir Foxx
I have to take issue with what you said RobertW. If you think athletes need to come clean on what they use, then you need to inform your employer, spouse, all family members and friends, insurance companies, Drs, of what you use and take. Everything. Trust me, it won't matter what it is, legal or illegal, you will get an uninformed bias developing against you. You might even be fired from your job, or have your insurance drop you. These people(athletes) are trying to do the best they can but because of the witch hunt currently going on, they are being lumped in with heroin and crack addicts. If an athlete wants to use performance enhancing drugs, so be it. Its not different than having access to better equipment to train or access to better food to fuel the body. Look at the US swim team. They have those new body suits that shave seconds off their times, giving them an unfair advantage over their opponents who either can't afford the suits or develop the technology, but I don't hear anyone calling them cheats.

there is a reason for the athletes to hide their intake on performance enhancing drugs.these guys are examples that every kid wants to follow.what would everybody think if one finds out that your sport hero is full of drugs? probably he would no longer be a role model because everybody would think that he accomplished everything because of the drugs(this isnt true,though).companis would no longer endorse him,and so on...!
but,IMO , the issue here is the hypocrisy of the anti-doping agency.if there were no drug tests in pro sport,everybody would be on the same boat.the pro athletes are pais to put on a show,to entertain the fans.if they want to take drugs to be better at that,fine

[dixon]

Id kill him

[elevated]

Originally posted by Sir Foxx
Everything. Trust me, it won't matter what it is, legal or illegal, you will get an uninformed bias developing against you.

I agree with you on that. I always wonder to myself, why do young kids in the gym tout about how they uses creatine or PH's. Best to keep silent about it, only thing people need to know is that youre using Whey Protein, thats it.

People do form very biased ideas about other people, no matter what it may be about.

I even go into the bathroom stall, lock the door,to take my DIABLO, and ALA, I dont need people to know what im taking. Some guy could be like "Oh man I saw this guy standing at the bathroom sink, taking this green substance orally, its gotta be steroids."

That goes for every supplement.

Its crazy how people are, yet its okay to drink alcohol and smoke, do damaging things to the body, but nothing healthy? Come on people...

[buddha]

Iron Wood posted this in the steroid forum, but for those who have not seen:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0316041steriods1.html

Patrick was not kidding about this guy, he's huge.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally posted by buddha
Iron Wood posted this in the steroid forum, but for those who have not seen:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0316041steriods1.html

Patrick was not kidding about this guy, he's huge.


this is how i remember him

http://getbig.com/news/2004-01/040311kramer.htm

[buddha]

he certainly dresses flamboyant

he kinda looks like a juiced Bono in with those glasses on

[Sir Foxx]

As Dirty Harry said, " I've seen a .38 bounce off a windshield, but a .44 Magnum, will blow his head clean off".

Not exactly what Harry said but more of a paraphrase;)

[the_real_train]

Hey *******,

You might know who I am... you might not. I lived right around the corner from you. Got arrested on 138, about a mile from your house.

What happened to your Federal charges, exactly?

Dont tell me that they were DROPPED.

I know better, and so does anyone who has been through it with them.

What happened?

Tt

[jkeithc82]

Hey *******,

You might know who I am... you might not. I lived right around the corner from you. Got arrested on 138, about a mile from your house.

What happened to your Federal charges, exactly?

Dont tell me that they were DROPPED.

I know better, and so does anyone who has been through it with them.

What happened?

Tt

Mind telling me who you are?

[Patrick Arnold]

Hey *******,

You might know who I am... you might not. I lived right around the corner from you. Got arrested on 138, about a mile from your house.

What happened to your Federal charges, exactly?

Dont tell me that they were DROPPED.

I know better, and so does anyone who has been through it with them.

What happened?

Tt

are you talking to bruce? he never had any federal charges in the first place

[the_real_train]

are you talking to bruce? he never had any federal charges in the first place

Funny, I remember reading that the feds participated in the arrest. Maybe charges were not filed. I dont know.

According to some people, the feds already had a relationship with you from way back... but I dont know if that is true or not... and the people who I learned this from years ago were less than trustworthy in many ways.

But why would feds have been on the arrest? Just because they were curious?

"Look, you dont want a superceeding indictment... and youre a good guy... we dont want to make this harder for you than it has to be, so just talk to us now... feel free to bring your lawyer... and you wont have to talk to us in court. You know youre looking at 5 years for each of those guns even though they were legal, and probably 10 for money charges and another 5 for each steroid count... so thats about 40 years. We knew you'd want to avoid all of that and we know you can help us a lot more if you work from this angle than if you get charged federally because people tend to notice that... right, buddy? Hahaha"

I guess the feds just went along for moral support... because the local Stoughton cops had no idea what to do with a steroid dealer, right?

Funny, the feds called in the Stoughton cops to arrest me a few years ago. They brought the doggies. They blocked traffic on rte 138. I guess Stoughton PD forgot everything they knew?

I call bull****.

As to who I am, it should be obvious.

By the way, M. Klein always said awful things about you, but he was a scumbag rat so I never listened. Wonder what he is saying now? I dont know.. I dont talk to him anymore. Not since he told on me along with a couple other guys I bet we both know.

Congrats on getting a sweet deal. Youll never do fed time

But other people will, I bet

:)

T

The best part? I dont care if you all go to jail! Everyone in this f'd up industry is a scumbag rat... especially all the white boys from the burbs! I just like to pitch in my 2 cents on the rare occasion that this bullstuff gets interesting again.

[payton34]

*makes some popcorn* :cool:

[UberBerzerker]

man, I love when visitors show up !!

[INGENIUM]

Mind telling me who you are?
i think he is the real train ;)

EDIT: interesting read here...

[Skigazzi]

wow....drama...on bb.com?????? No...never.... :)

[Patrick Arnold]

The best part? I dont care if you all go to jail! Everyone in this f'd up industry is a scumbag rat... especially all the white boys from the burbs! I just like to pitch in my 2 cents on the rare occasion that this bullstuff gets interesting again.



not everyone in this industry is a scumbag rat.

the scumbag rats like to think that everyone else is just like them, so they can justify their behaviour to themselves and others

[warriors]

Ooohhhhhh this thread brings back some memories.

BTW is this seat taken? :cool:

[hooker]

Funny, I remember reading that the feds participated in the arrest. Maybe charges were not filed. I dont know.

According to some people, the feds already had a relationship with you from way back... but I dont know if that is true or not... and the people who I learned this from years ago were less than trustworthy in many ways.

But why would feds have been on the arrest? Just because they were curious?

"Look, you dont want a superceeding indictment... and youre a good guy... we dont want to make this harder for you than it has to be, so just talk to us now... feel free to bring your lawyer... and you wont have to talk to us in court. You know youre looking at 5 years for each of those guns even though they were legal, and probably 10 for money charges and another 5 for each steroid count... so thats about 40 years. We knew you'd want to avoid all of that and we know you can help us a lot more if you work from this angle than if you get charged federally because people tend to notice that... right, buddy? Hahaha"

I guess the feds just went along for moral support... because the local Stoughton cops had no idea what to do with a steroid dealer, right?

Funny, the feds called in the Stoughton cops to arrest me a few years ago. They brought the doggies. They blocked traffic on rte 138. I guess Stoughton PD forgot everything they knew?

I call bull****.

As to who I am, it should be obvious.

By the way, M. Klein always said awful things about you, but he was a scumbag rat so I never listened. Wonder what he is saying now? I dont know.. I dont talk to him anymore. Not since he told on me along with a couple other guys I bet we both know.

Congrats on getting a sweet deal. Youll never do fed time

But other people will, I bet

:)

T

The best part? I dont care if you all go to jail! Everyone in this f'd up industry is a scumbag rat... especially all the white boys from the burbs! I just like to pitch in my 2 cents on the rare occasion that this bullstuff gets interesting again.

I Know who you are...

[Patrick Arnold]

I Know who you are...

are his initials mm?

[the_real_train]

I Know who you are...

You might :)

And yeah, everyone is a scumbag rat.

Unless they were given an early "out" or were part of an initial investigation.

And I should clarify... not EVERYONE. I know a couple gems.

God bless.

Tt

[UberBerzerker]

I Know who you are...

*waves hand over hookers face*


You will tell me who this person is.......

[the_real_train]

are his initials mm?

No...

You probably dont know me. Maybe few of you do... but I have been around since Varix was yellow and Raupp owned Anabolex and before. Back since HumansaurusRex and all those cats. Back when people said 300 mg Deca was impossible and 10mg dbol tabs was a new thing.

I am Train. I never came to this board because I had no reason to.

Tt

[the_real_train]

*waves hand over hookers face*


You will tell me who this person is.......

He wont, because he is a good dude.

I am Train. Thats always been my handle. My real name, whatever... what does it matter? I havent been active in years and think this whole scene is beat.

Tt

[jkeithc82]

He wont, because he is a good dude.

I am Train. Thats always been my handle. My real name, whatever... what does it matter? I havent been active in years and think this whole scene is beat.

Tt

So what brings you here now?

[INGENIUM]

I havent been active in years and think this whole scene is beat.

Tt

then leave....? :confused:

[the_real_train]

So what brings you here now?

Im just curious how someone has federal agents at their arrest yet walks away from it, despite having guns in their house, clear ties to overseas and domestic distribution channels, and is an obvious federal case. This **** has no place in state court. God, I PRAYED my **** would go state. But of course it wouldnt. How can they adequately prosecute something that is so beyond their jurisdiction?

So Im just curious... maybe we can all learn something here. If the feds are going along on arrest warrants just to give the state cops a little company, I think that is terrific information and we should all know about it.

And Im curious if the feds were from MA, or someplace else? Because the MA DEA agents I know wouldnt just stand there and watch. They dont go all the way to Stoughton to say hello.

Its laughable. And I want to know how he swung such a sweet deal where the feds show up to the HQ of a "major international drug ring" and find handguns there and decide that it isnt interesting to them, that Stoughton is better suited to handle the case.

Really - I gotta know!

According to the Federal Guidelines, you must have been at a level 30 at least... I think its 2 points per gun, mandatory? Thats several more than several years in jail. Maybe they felt bad for you and realized the hypocracy in modern anabolics laws and figured that people who manufacture and distribute AAS should be pitied? That would be great... I know a few folks locked up right now that would love to learn this.

Tt

PS - I really hope to learn that it is in fact true... I just want to know how and to hear it for myself.

[UberBerzerker]

So what brings you here now?

sometimes the train just HAS to make an unscheduled stop!!

;)

[hooker]

are his initials mm?

No.

[Patrick Arnold]

Im just curious how someone has federal agents at their arrest yet walks away from it, despite having guns in their house, clear ties to overseas and domestic distribution channels, and is an obvious federal case. This **** has no place in state court. God, I PRAYED my **** would go state. But of course it wouldnt. How can they adequately prosecute something that is so beyond their jurisdiction?

So Im just curious... maybe we can all learn something here. If the feds are going along on arrest warrants just to give the state cops a little company, I think that is terrific information and we should all know about it.

And Im curious if the feds were from MA, or someplace else? Because the MA DEA agents I know wouldnt just stand there and watch. They dont go all the way to Stoughton to say hello.

Its laughable. And I want to know how he swung such a sweet deal where the feds show up to the HQ of a "major international drug ring" and find handguns there and decide that it isnt interesting to them, that Stoughton is better suited to handle the case.

Really - I gotta know!

According to the Federal Guidelines, you must have been at a level 30 at least... I think its 2 points per gun, mandatory? Thats several more than several years in jail. Maybe they felt bad for you and realized the hypocracy in modern anabolics laws and figured that people who manufacture and distribute AAS should be pitied? That would be great... I know a few folks locked up right now that would love to learn this.

Tt

PS - I really hope to learn that it is in fact true... I just want to know how and to hear it for myself.


this thread really should be deleted now. it is impossible to have debate on this, because accused persons and their attorney can't discuss their cases.

this is supplement board anyway. this ain't court tv

[Skigazzi]

Whats up with Stoughton being a hot bed for this stuff?

BK, Craig Titus, and Train all got nailed their...Titus and Train both were on Route 138 :eek:

[the_real_train]

this thread really should be deleted now. it is impossible to have debate on this, because accused persons and their attorney can't discuss their cases.

this is supplement board anyway. this ain't court tv

Im sorry. I wasnt ACCUSING anyone.

And of course it should be deleted.

But people shouldnt open the door to questions if they dont want it wide open.

PA, how much time did you get? What was the charge you pled to? Curious. Youre out now, so you can talk about it.

[jkeithc82]

Im sorry. I wasnt ACCUSING anyone.

And of course it should be deleted.

But people shouldnt open the door to questions if they dont want it wide open.

PA, how much time did you get? What was the charge you pled to? Curious. Youre out now, so you can talk about it.

The thread's been dead for 3 years. You bumped it. :confused:

[Patrick Arnold]

Im sorry. I wasnt ACCUSING anyone.

And of course it should be deleted.

But people shouldnt open the door to questions if they dont want it wide open.

PA, how much time did you get? What was the charge you pled to? Curious. Youre out now, so you can talk about it.


i don't even need to talk about it cuz its all a matter of public record now. but to save you time i got three months prison three months house arrest. i was charged with distribution of anabolic steroids. that is a false charge cuz these were not legally anabolic steroids but why should i spend all my money to fight the "principle" of the charge when they would have ended up being so pissed off they would have just charged me with something else and threw the book at me.

feds have unlimited resources and don't quit

my case of course was extremely atypical and unprecedented

[the_real_train]

i don't even need to talk about it cuz its all a matter of public record now. but to save you time i got three months prison three months house arrest. i was charged with distribution of anabolic steroids. that is a false charge cuz these were not legally anabolic steroids but why should i spend all my money to fight the "principle" of the charge when they would have ended up being so pissed off they would have just charged me with something else and threw the book at me.

feds have unlimited resources and don't quit

my case of course was extremely atypical and unprecedented

how many units were you convicted of distributing?

Tt

[Patrick Arnold]

how many units were you convicted of distributing?

Tt


there was no determination of units. there was no way to determine units. the evidence really was just records of a little bit of money passed back and forth and some emails. they just said 3/3 take it or leave it and i took it

it was really an insignificant undertaking except for the fact the stuff ended up causing a scandal that pissed everyone off.

if it had gone to untested bodybuilders no one would have cared

[the_real_train]

there was no determination of units. there was no way to determine units. the evidence really was just records of a little bit of money passed back and forth and some emails. they just said 3/3 take it or leave it and i took it

it was really an insignificant undertaking except for the fact the stuff ended up causing a scandal that pissed everyone off.

if it had gone to untested bodybuilders no one would have cared

Yeah, then why would you tell on anyone? 3 months in a camp is cake. That about as small of a charge as one can catch, federally.

You made a good choice... Im glad for you. I wish I heard more stories like that.

Tt

[the_real_train]

And I wanted to add, because it is true, that it is people who get these short sentences that do not always tell. Usually they still do. There would be no way to get such a short sentence. However, in cases where someone is looking at 3 months in a camp and knows that if they tell they will likely lose something worth more to them than 3 months of freedom, they will just do their time.

There is no way that a guy will do 10, 20 years for someone they only know as "juice2u" and has been buying roids or almost any other illegal drug from. It just doesnt happen. And I suspect BK is looking at that amount of time. Thats why I am curious.

PA, you probably know how the feds work, but maybe you dont. Maybe you were a "special case" and they only wanted you for some goofy reason. Sounds like it was not something they wanted to pursue. But you know as well as I do, probably, that the feds dont let stuff go because the state takes it. They come later, while you are in state prison... sometimes as you are walking to the car (I saw that happen!) and nail you, flip you, send you away for a long time. Its scary but true and if you want to deny that they would be all over this case like flies on ****, youre insane.

And people should know what they are f'ing with. I dont want to see anyone get hurt anymore. There has been enough of that in this pussy-filled industry of backstabbing debutantes.

K?

Tt

[Patrick Arnold]

PA, you probably know how the feds work, but maybe you dont. Maybe you were a "special case" and they only wanted you for some goofy reason. Sounds like it was not something they wanted to pursue. But you know as well as I do, probably, that the feds dont let stuff go because the state takes it. They come later, while you are in state prison... sometimes as you are walking to the car (I saw that happen!) and nail you, flip you, send you away for a long time. Its scary but true and if you want to deny that they would be all over this case like flies on ****, youre insane.



i fell into the guidelines of 0-6 months. yes i was a highly public case but when it came down to the actual "crime" the punishment was not great. Normally, as you know, the feds would not pursue with such gusto (there was lot of money put into my conviction) unless they thought there would be a major sentence possible. However, my case was pursued more for political and media notoriety purposes than it was for carrying out justice for a technically serious legal transgression

Of course cooperation to reduce a 3 month sentence is ridiculous. so i never had to face that decision. I cannot say that if i faced 5-10 years or more however that i would not consider cooperation. If cooperation against a scumbag that dragged me into something, or was not very nice to me, or was not a loyal friend meant some time off i might do it. But if it were against a freind who i respected then the decision would be much harder. a terrible decision that would be indeed

[Outside backer]

wow just wow

[Outside backer]

Nope. I think he owns Thermolife.

whoa

[IBE Labs]

I Know who you are...


***who is this guy, he sounds pretty pissed***

[MoonMan12]

Reporter Adam Tanner, from Rueters, has brought to the public, in a new story, who the possible informant in the Balco case which is bringing down many sports and bodybuilding figures in the United States.

Uh oh. He's ****ed, wonder bout his sources?

[the_real_train]

***who is this guy, he sounds pretty pissed***

I'm not pissed at all, dude. I just want people to be aware of the severity of federal interest.

They win 98 percent of their cases.

They give real time.

Heresay is admissable, and they can convict on it.

Just watch your ass.

Tt

[the_real_train]

I cannot say that if i faced 5-10 years or more however that i would not consider cooperation. If cooperation against a scumbag that dragged me into something, or was not very nice to me, or was not a loyal friend meant some time off i might do it. But if it were against a freind who i respected then the decision would be much harder. a terrible decision that would be indeed

I want to comment that I feel this to be an extremely honest and ballsy statement. I admire that courage, amidst a boat load of frauds and wannabe tough guys.

Tt

[Patrick Arnold]

I'm not pissed at all, dude. I just want people to be aware of the severity of federal interest.

They win 98 percent of their cases.

They give real time.

Heresay is admissable, and they can convict on it.

Just watch your ass.

Tt


and you serve 100% of your time unlike state. well, you can earn good days but they are not that significant

[Kohen_Gadol]

Funny, I remember reading that the feds participated in the arrest. Maybe charges were not filed. I dont know.

You don't know but I have figured out by your locale and associations who you really are. You can speculate all you like. I obviously can't comment on this. Think whatever you want.



According to some people, the feds already had a relationship with you from way back... but I dont know if that is true or not... and the people who I learned this from years ago were less than trustworthy in many ways.

So if you're repeating information from people you readily admit are untrustworthy your point is what exactly?






I guess the feds just went along for moral support... because the local Stoughton cops had no idea what to do with a steroid dealer, right?.

That's alleged...last time I checked I had neither plead guilty or been convicted of anything. It also shows you're amazingly ignorant. I absolutely guarantee you I have never been arrested by, been in a squad car or or been inside the Stoughton Police Department. Maybe you should do more "investigating" and a little less "jawing" - know what I mean?




As to who I am, it should be obvious.

To me it is. Do the intials AP mean anything to you? :) Tony is it?


By the way, M. Klein always said awful things about you, but he was a scumbag rat so I never listened. Wonder what he is saying now? I dont know.. I dont talk to him anymore. Not since he told on me along with a couple other guys I bet we both know.

You spelled his last name incorrectly. Get it right! :) You seem to think I care what that spoiled brat says about me. You're wrong. You also feel compelled to mention him and question what he thinks of me while at the same time admitting you do not like him and he dimed you out. It looks like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth, Tony.

Last time I heard our 'friend' had rolled over on like a dozen people to avoid
being indicted. He could not give out the names fast enough when they asked! This is something he does all the time when he gets "caught" I hear. He rolled on me too...but I had not done anything wrong. I did get a "knock and talk" but was smart enough to have an attorney present and remained silent.

I remember you VERY well. You probably remember me sitting with you and "our friend" in his mom's kitchen when I did that piece for MuscleMag about "bodybuilders who do gay for pay" and what not. I interviewed our "mutual friend" for that piece Tony. He was very chatty...especially when he was lit up on Nubain.

I hear he is not doing so well these days...something about a terminal heart condition? Did you know anything about this?





The best part? I dont care if you all go to jail! Everyone in this f'd up industry is a scumbag rat... especially all the white boys from the burbs! I just like to pitch in my 2 cents on the rare occasion that this bullstuff gets interesting again.

Yes you do. You most certainly care. Enough to dredge up and bump a 3+ year old thread.

I never had anything against you Tony. I never really knew you outside of seeing you at Gold's in Braintree once in awhile or through our "buddy".

But I'm going to lay it on the line for you here - you're not an attorney, you're not a judge, you are not involved with law enforcement...you're a meatball from the gym. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. It's a free country, you can speculate on the law all you like and what you think is going down or what went down or whatever. Knock yourself out. You'll be 99%-100% wrong but it will be an interesting read. ;)

[Patrick Arnold]

You don't know but I have figured out by your locale and associations who you really are. You can speculate all you like. I obviously can't comment on this. Think whatever you want.




So if you're repeating information from people you readily admit are untrustworthy your point is what exactly?






That's alleged...last time I checked I had neither plead guilty or been convicted of anything. It also shows you're amazingly ignorant. I absolutely guarantee you I have never been arrested by, been in a squad car or or been inside the Stoughton Police Department. Maybe you should do more "investigating" and a little less "jawing" - know what I mean?




To me it is. Do the intials AP mean anything to you? :) Tony is it?



You spelled his last name incorrectly. Get it right! :) You seem to think I care what that spoiled brat says about me. You're wrong. You also feel compelled to mention him and question what he thinks of me while at the same time admitting you do not like him and he dimed you out. It looks like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth, Tony.

Last time I heard our 'friend' had rolled over on like a dozen people to avoid
being indicted. He could not give out the names fast enough when they asked! This is something he does all the time when he gets "caught" I hear. He rolled on me too...but I had not done anything wrong. I did get a "knock and talk" but was smart enough to have an attorney present and remained silent.

I remember you VERY well. You probably remember me sitting with you and "our friend" in his mom's kitchen when I did that piece for MuscleMag about "bodybuilders who do gay for pay" and what not. I interviewed our "mutual friend" for that piece Tony. He was very chatty...especially when he was lit up on Nubain.

I hear he is not doing so well these days...something about a terminal heart condition? Did you know anything about this?





Yes you do. You most certainly care. Enough to dredge up and bump a 3+ year old thread.

I never had anything against you Tony. I never really knew you outside of seeing you at Gold's in Braintree once in awhile or through our "buddy".

But I'm going to lay it on the line for you here - you're not an attorney, you're not a judge, you are not involved with law enforcement...you're a meatball from the gym. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. It's a free country, you can speculate on the law all you like and what you think is going down or what went down or whatever. Knock yourself out. You'll be 99%-100% wrong but it will be an interesting read. ;)

gay bodybuilders, narcotic analgesics, and italian meatballs. quality entertainment!

[JCAZ2010]

i really don't understand what the big deal is can someone explain? This guy ratted out bonds shefield and giambi, why is this news or as terrible as people seem to be making it....?

[drxmn]

BK and PA, Im sorry you had this **** parade. You are standup guys.

[Patrick Arnold]

i really don't understand what the big deal is can someone explain? This guy ratted out bonds shefield and giambi, why is this news or as terrible as people seem to be making it....?


the only people i am aware that ratted out bonds was his ex-girlfriend and his ex-agent. Giambi ratted himself out in grand jury testimony. I dunno about Sheffield

And this has nothing to do with the current tit for tat that is goin on here anyway.


"in that case, tat, TAT!!!!" - Benny Hill

[Kohen_Gadol]

the only people i am aware that ratted out bonds was his ex-girlfriend and his ex-agent. Giambi ratted himself out in grand jury testimony. I dunno about Sheffield

And this has nothing to do with the current tit for tat that is goin on here anyway.


"in that case, tat, TAT!!!!" - Benny Hill

Like everything else in this industry, there are many layers to what is going on, like an onion. I'll give you the nickel novel version.

I got (unsolicited) an e-mail from someone last week that was pretty heavily laden with links to show that someone else (who was Cc'ed on the letter) was a cooperating witness.

I guess I was "supposed to be interested or care" - in actuality, I have enough of my own sh*t to deal with so I do not care. However, the individual who was Cc'ed on that e-mail apparently was sure I was going to "out him" on the internet so my thoughts are he contacted someone that he knew I vaguely knew from a decade ago who did some time in "Club Fed" on a crappy juice charge that stemmed from someone else we both knew snitching on anyone and everyone he could in order to save his own skin. He convinced this "Peach" of a guy (inside joke) that I am/was/will be a snitch to save my skin like our mutual "friend did" and had him sign up here and post in an old thread.

The idea is that if he, by proxy, calls me a snitch then if I call him a snitch in public than it will not be credible and will be seen merely as retaliatory for this little charade.

The only problem with the above theory and plan was I had zero plan to out the guy because I really do not care one way or the other. I will agree with my old "friend' Tony here in that there is way too much BS going on in the subculture. I also agree with you too Patrick and the points you made. However, although you can't post to the info in a certain conversation made in front of a mutual attorney friend, you know what the game is and you pretty much know whats happening better than 99% of the other folks here.

Tony is very angry because he got dimed out by a bloated douche bag with no balls and no heart (quite literally). I feel for the guy but the bottom line is, and I have always maintained this, if you do the crime then be prepared to do the time. Tony can point the finger at our "mutual fast talking chum" and he is 100% spot on - the dude is a known rat fink who sold out everyone he knew was doing stuff and even people he was not sure of - and the guy could not cooperate fast enough I might add - just to make sure he didn't have to do day one of time. He's a spoiled brat mama's boy whose father is an eye doctor and who has sucked the marrow out of his parents and never done a single honest days work. No denying this. But it's not really sequitar. If Tony didn't do anything wrong, when the law raided his place in Stoughton they would not have found anything and he would not have spent time confined. If indeed, ultimately, I am convicted or plead guilty, surely it would be pretty stupid for me to solely blame the "confidential informant" (who is not so confidential, he opened his mouth and bragged) for my own actions without taking any responsibility for what I may or may not have done.

I think Tony needs to reflect on himself and what he did before throwing stones.

;)

[Kohen_Gadol]

gay bodybuilders, narcotic analgesics, and italian meatballs. quality entertainment!

Man...I should start a pay site for this type of stuff!

[the_real_train]

You don't know but I have figured out by your locale and associations who you really are. You can speculate all you like. I obviously can't comment on this. Think whatever you want.




So if you're repeating information from people you readily admit are untrustworthy your point is what exactly?






That's alleged...last time I checked I had neither plead guilty or been convicted of anything. It also shows you're amazingly ignorant. I absolutely guarantee you I have never been arrested by, been in a squad car or or been inside the Stoughton Police Department. Maybe you should do more "investigating" and a little less "jawing" - know what I mean?




To me it is. Do the intials AP mean anything to you? :) Tony is it?



You spelled his last name incorrectly. Get it right! :) You seem to think I care what that spoiled brat says about me. You're wrong. You also feel compelled to mention him and question what he thinks of me while at the same time admitting you do not like him and he dimed you out. It looks like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth, Tony.

Last time I heard our 'friend' had rolled over on like a dozen people to avoid
being indicted. He could not give out the names fast enough when they asked! This is something he does all the time when he gets "caught" I hear. He rolled on me too...but I had not done anything wrong. I did get a "knock and talk" but was smart enough to have an attorney present and remained silent.

I remember you VERY well. You probably remember me sitting with you and "our friend" in his mom's kitchen when I did that piece for MuscleMag about "bodybuilders who do gay for pay" and what not. I interviewed our "mutual friend" for that piece Tony. He was very chatty...especially when he was lit up on Nubain.

I hear he is not doing so well these days...something about a terminal heart condition? Did you know anything about this?





Yes you do. You most certainly care. Enough to dredge up and bump a 3+ year old thread.

I never had anything against you Tony. I never really knew you outside of seeing you at Gold's in Braintree once in awhile or through our "buddy".

But I'm going to lay it on the line for you here - you're not an attorney, you're not a judge, you are not involved with law enforcement...you're a meatball from the gym. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. It's a free country, you can speculate on the law all you like and what you think is going down or what went down or whatever. Knock yourself out. You'll be 99%-100% wrong but it will be an interesting read. ;)

Wow, you must be on drugs. On one hand Im REALLY glad you have no idea who I am... on the other, Im kind of sad because I got hit with 11,000 bottles of steroids and was dumping them right in your backyard, every week, for a couple years. Your gym was flooded with my ****.

This kills me, because I'm not Tony.

Honest to God, Im not. Or Anthony. You really dont know me. I never met you face to face and I called around to see if you went to my gym EVER but no, you didnt.

And those initials mean nothing to me.

And I never went to Golds in Braintree. You and I both lived closer to another Golds.

I am a 2 time convicted felon who was involved in a case very similar to yours. I am not a meatball. I spent 16 months locked up with federal convicts. I know you are cooperating because I have a brain. I know the law because I went through it and I personally know a few dozen people who have done it. I know (personally) 5 or 6 people doing federal time right now for steroids, in particular.

Funny, they were only selling them... and a lot less than I guess you were... and they had a lot less evidence!

But I guess YOURE SPECIAL. :)

BTW - how did you have an attorney present at a 'knock and talk'? Did they make an appointment before coming to see you? :)

He told on me, too. BTW.

This is even more interesting to me... they never even arrested you? So, everyone showed up and asked you to please appear in court? The feds, the locals, all come to visit and say, "We dont want to arrest you. We just want to say hi, take a few pictures, and see if you would be available to come to court in the morning?" Youre in the papers, in court, looking all sad and middle class out of shape white man, and plastered all over the news... but nobody put cuffs on you? Just because why? Did you WALK to the station? Did you guys ride bikes and you needed your hands to be free? Did they just decide that they didnt need to formally book you because, well, they trusted you??

BA ha ha. Um...

Cut it out. Youre insulting EVERYONE's intelligence.

If you read my post, I dont outright accuse you... though now I would almost do that. I said I dont see how it makes sense. Yes, I know and do not trust CLINE :) but still, I got ears... I hear tings (pacino).

I believe you were never charged, or had to submit a plea.

You dont plead guilty (or innocent) when the Feds give you a PRETRIAL DIVERSION.

Know what that is?

I bet you do.

They must REALLY think you gots sum GOOD INFO fo dem, huh? You must have a perty little mouth on you, Brucey!

Get it?

Uh huh.

I do.

Okay then.

Pretrial Diversion.

Word of the day.

Tt

[the_real_train]

Like everything else in this industry, there are many layers to what is going on, like an onion. I'll give you the nickel novel version.

I got (unsolicited) an e-mail from someone last week that was pretty heavily laden with links to show that someone else (who was Cc'ed on the letter) was a cooperating witness.

I guess I was "supposed to be interested or care" - in actuality, I have enough of my own sh*t to deal with so I do not care. However, the individual who was Cc'ed on that e-mail apparently was sure I was going to "out him" on the internet so my thoughts are he contacted someone that he knew I vaguely knew from a decade ago who did some time in "Club Fed" on a crappy juice charge that stemmed from someone else we both knew snitching on anyone and everyone he could in order to save his own skin. He convinced this "Peach" of a guy (inside joke) that I am/was/will be a snitch to save my skin like our mutual "friend did" and had him sign up here and post in an old thread.

The idea is that if he, by proxy, calls me a snitch then if I call him a snitch in public than it will not be credible and will be seen merely as retaliatory for this little charade.

The only problem with the above theory and plan was I had zero plan to out the guy because I really do not care one way or the other. I will agree with my old "friend' Tony here in that there is way too much BS going on in the subculture. I also agree with you too Patrick and the points you made. However, although you can't post to the info in a certain conversation made in front of a mutual attorney friend, you know what the game is and you pretty much know whats happening better than 99% of the other folks here.

Tony is very angry because he got dimed out by a bloated douche bag with no balls and no heart (quite literally). I feel for the guy but the bottom line is, and I have always maintained this, if you do the crime then be prepared to do the time. Tony can point the finger at our "mutual fast talking chum" and he is 100% spot on - the dude is a known rat fink who sold out everyone he knew was doing stuff and even people he was not sure of - and the guy could not cooperate fast enough I might add - just to make sure he didn't have to do day one of time. He's a spoiled brat mama's boy whose father is an eye doctor and who has sucked the marrow out of his parents and never done a single honest days work. No denying this. But it's not really sequitar. If Tony didn't do anything wrong, when the law raided his place in Stoughton they would not have found anything and he would not have spent time confined. If indeed, ultimately, I am convicted or plead guilty, surely it would be pretty stupid for me to solely blame the "confidential informant" (who is not so confidential, he opened his mouth and bragged) for my own actions without taking any responsibility for what I may or may not have done.

I think Tony needs to reflect on himself and what he did before throwing stones.

;)

Yeah bro... Im not Tony. And besides Cline, I doubt we know anyone in common. I was a drug dealer. I wasnt in the industry in any 'appropriate' way.

Fact is, it doesnt matter who I am. What Im saying is indisputable... but Id LOVE to hear how you dispute it, because really, I want us all to be safe and would love to think that you can get named as the head of an international drug manufacuring ring and not even get arrested.

Tt

[the_real_train]

and you serve 100% of your time unlike state. well, you can earn good days but they are not that significant

I was lucky and did 85 percent. 2 18 month sentences, concurrent. Was out in 16 or so. And that was as good as it could have gotten, without the drug program, which didnt make sense to me to do.

Followed by halfway house.

A few months in a medium security

A few in a low

Finished in a camp

Transferred to another camp

To a halfway house

To this lovely place I am now where I can smell rats without even being in the same town as them :)

Tt

[Kohen_Gadol]

I was lucky and did 85 percent. 2 18 month sentences, concurrent. Was out in 16 or so. And that was as good as it could have gotten, without the drug program, which didnt make sense to me to do.

Followed by halfway house.

A few months in a medium security

A few in a low

Finished in a camp

Transferred to another camp

To a halfway house

To this lovely place I am now where I can smell rats without even being in the same town as them :)

Tt

Your really a lot stupider than I thought. I don't and never have lived in Stoughton you meatball so why would the Stoughton PD come to visit me?

See, this is the problem with "gym bros" who think they are well informed but really aren't.

I never said I was not arrested. I wrote I was never visited by the Stoughton PD, in a Stoughton PD squad car, or in the Stoughton station. I certainly was charged (this is public info) and plead "not guilty" so that sort of blows your theory right out of the water, doesn't it, Tony? Yeah, I made bond too - imagine that? All of this info is obtainable in the public domain in 5 minutes by anyone who has a brain. You made claim to having one but I am really not seeing this now. You didn't do your homework - you listened to a bunch of gymbags spewing hot air and took it as fact which is why you are talking out of your keister now.

You can think and speculate what you like. It's a free country. You're obviously way off and wrong. But if this speculating thing gives you comfort and makes you feel good, do it. Do you feel good? Special? Even though you are completely wrong in what your posted you really do not care. Posting nonsense that sounds good makes you feel somehow vindicated, doesn't it? You should see if you can get a job as a journalist since they aren't interested in facts either. Now there is an idea!

You can think I am cooperating too if you like. Although it is a little difficult to cooperate after you have been formally charged in a court room before a sitting judge.

You could, if you had half a clue and were interested in truth, easily look up where/whom arrested me and who led the investigation. But you're interested in character assassination and pointing fingers and not truth.

I would also expect, especially from someone who claims to be "what he is" that you would also know that a lot of the stuff reported in newspapers ends up being untrue or at the least, quite inflammatory and its highly unlikely you ever get a retraction.

I'm not going to fall into your little trap - you know VERY well I can't comment on my legal situation in public since it is ongoing. To do so might lead to evidence that could be used against me. So the garbage about "why don't you just clear this up for all of us" is a moot point, and you knew it was a moot point. But it makes you sound like you're giving me a bona fide opp to clear the air and makes you seem legit and like a "good bro" - right?

You obviously do believe everything you read and hear as truth. Nothing I could say or post would dissuade you from that anyhow so this is a waste of time. You've already convicted me of whatever you think I am guilty of in your head and whether this is remotely the situation is 100% immaterial to you. Nothing is going to change your mind. So for me to try to would be a waste of my time and yours.

If you are so interested in "outting" people you think are collaborating witnesses how come you haven't posted a damned thing about someone else who recently posted in this thread who got busted THREE YEARS ago and who is not only still "out" but is still selling research chemicals from a website?

I mean, if the feds/locals busted me the last thing I would do even if I was cleared would be to sell grey area research chems from a website. That would be like asking for a return visit. Unless some sort of deal was cut.
Right, Tony?

You're trying to bust my balls in particular and I have a pretty good idea why.
Just tell the idiots pulling your strings that I can break their balls right back and a whole lot harder.

Bust away, Tony! :)

[spoonman]

If I was PA, the headline would read "Informant Murdered"

[IBE Labs]

Don't even think we had anything to do with this guy's motive. BK you can not quit can you? you have more enemy's then just with us and I am sure you already know this so don't go blaim us when another enemy of yours comes out from the dark. We had nothing to do with this and I have no clue who this guy is. since you going around blaim us for this I am starting to like that guy now.





Your really a lot stupider than I thought. I




don't and never have lived in Stoughton you meatball so why would the Stoughton PD come to visit me?

See, this is the problem with "gym bros" who think they are well informed but really aren't.

I never said I was not arrested. I wrote I was never visited by the Stoughton PD, in a Stoughton PD squad car, or in the Stoughton station. I certainly was charged (this is public info) and plead "not guilty" so that sort of blows your theory right out of the water, doesn't it, Tony? Yeah, I made bond too - imagine that? All of this info is obtainable in the public domain in 5 minutes by anyone who has a brain. You made claim to having one but I am really not seeing this now. You didn't do your homework - you listened to a bunch of gymbags spewing hot air and took it as fact which is why you are talking out of your keister now.

You can think and speculate what you like. It's a free country. You're obviously way off and wrong. But if this speculating thing gives you comfort and makes you feel good, do it. Do you feel good? Special? Even though you are completely wrong in what your posted you really do not care. Posting nonsense that sounds good makes you feel somehow vindicated, doesn't it? You should see if you can get a job as a journalist since they aren't interested in facts either. Now there is an idea!

You can think I am cooperating too if you like. Although it is a little difficult to cooperate after you have been formally charged in a court room before a sitting judge.

You could, if you had half a clue and were interested in truth, easily look up where/whom arrested me and who led the investigation. But you're interested in character assassination and pointing fingers and not truth.

I would also expect, especially from someone who claims to be "what he is" that you would also know that a lot of the stuff reported in newspapers ends up being untrue or at the least, quite inflammatory and its highly unlikely you ever get a retraction.

I'm not going to fall into your little trap - you know VERY well I can't comment on my legal situation in public since it is ongoing. To do so might lead to evidence that could be used against me. So the garbage about "why don't you just clear this up for all of us" is a moot point, and you knew it was a moot point. But it makes you sound like you're giving me a bona fide opp to clear the air and makes you seem legit and like a "good bro" - right?

You obviously do believe everything you read and hear as truth. Nothing I could say or post would dissuade you from that anyhow so this is a waste of time. You've already convicted me of whatever you think I am guilty of in your head and whether this is remotely the situation is 100% immaterial to you. Nothing is going to change your mind. So for me to try to would be a waste of my time and yours.

If you are so interested in "outting" people you think are collaborating witnesses how come you haven't posted a damned thing about someone else who recently posted in this thread who got busted THREE YEARS ago and who is not only still "out" but is still selling research chemicals from a website?

I mean, if the feds/locals busted me the last thing I would do even if I was cleared would be to sell grey area research chems from a website. That would be like asking for a return visit. Unless some sort of deal was cut.
Right, Tony?

You're trying to bust my balls in particular and I have a pretty good idea why.
Just tell the idiots pulling your strings that I can break their balls right back and a whole lot harder.

Bust away, Tony! :)

[Kohen_Gadol]

You and DrD and LMD both heavily implied in other threads you thought I was a snitch. However, a simple review of what happened to you and Natalie by anyone here would probably lead to the conclusion that you are both "cooperating witnesses" - do you want the links to the newspaper articles?

Lets see...

1) You get raided by federal, state and county officials and the papers say you get caught with a trough of GBL, GHB, steroids and half an ounce of weed (and manufacturing equipment).

2) The scene was such a mess a HAZMAT team had to be flown in from 3 states away to clean out your house.

3) You yourself posted that the "steroids were yours...etc." so you admitted you were in possession (with intent) of quite a bit of gear in public on the internet. You did this yourself, Eddie!

4) Even if we believe you about the GHB/GBL not being "real" or testing out, that still leaves the steroids (which you admitted to in public) and the 12 grams of weed (which would have been a second offense for your wife...did you know your wife got busted for weed in 1999 or did you meet her afterwards?).

5) Over three years later neither you nor your wife have done one day of time nor is there any online dispostion of your cases in state or federal court. It's like it all disappeared, Eddie? Now how do I get all my charges to magically disappear? How do I not only get to remain free for 3+ years after being raided like you and Natalie, but how do I get permission to move out of the county and into a nice new house?

6) Only a blazing retard (or someone who had tacit governmental permission) would be stupid enough to still sell clenbuterol, T-3, IGF-1, HGH, MGF, selegiline, etc., as *cough* "research chemicals" suspended/soluted in PEG with the obvious intention that it is for human use after being busted like you were. I mean, even if you somehow hit the law enforcement lottery and manage to skate what they raided you for...why would you be stupid enough to poke them in the eye after that. You do not really think that asinine disclaimer you have is going to save you, do you? It did not save Tommy Chong and all he was selling was glassware! Unless...of course.."they know about it" and this is all part of a giant "snare" tactic? Dude, I mean, I would not dream of messing with a "prohormone" now, it would be absolutely dumb of me to do it yet you're pushing Epistane all over the place? What do I need to do to get permission from the government to sell that kind of thing after I get arrested and charged? I'm asking because I do not know but it would seem that you pretty much do because you're doing it.

I dunno. Maybe you're clean and just a whole lot luckier than I am? Despite what the meatball posted (he probably got his info from your friend who runs AG - another bona fide meatball for sure) I was arrested, printed, arraigned, charged and posted bond. This is all in the public domain and readily available. The wheels of justice do tend to turn slowly but you got hit better than three years ago dude.

I don't know Eddie, if that were me I probably would have consulted with an attorney about whether it was a smart idea to be selling research chemicals, a designer prohormone and an amphetamine analog named in the Washington Post in an RTD with billboard signs in Florida. I dunno, I think if I was going to stay in the sports nutrition industry after that I might have been selling stuff a little less..."in your face" if you know what I mean?

And I do not want to hear that the charges were all thrown out and the sheriff resigned over your case (yeah, I believe it, I really do!)...I think the local deputy sheriffs know what a bag of marijuana looks like when they find one, Eddie. They probably know how to weight it out too. Why would they toss a marijuana charge, Eddie? Also, we have you admitting the "steroids were yours online" so it's pretty obvious you ceded that the bust was legit.

But I'll be damned...its three years later and you and the wifer are still running around loose, got permission I guess to move out of the county and into a big new house and (according to you) just bought a brand new Hummer H-2 SUT with big gumbo mudders on it.

*scratches head*

My passport and most of my assets were seized ex parte when I was busted yet you manage to be able to buy a new half a million dollar house and a new H-2? With big tires and a lift too! Holy cow!

Dude, I need your advice, what do I have to do to keep my case open for 3+ years, get the government to release the $400K+ the seized from me that I am contesting in court and let me buy a house with it? Hey, I'd like an H-2 too, Eddie!

You walked right into this Eddie. To say you did not see it coming would be amazingly naive.

Still like your meatball friend now, Eddie? :)

BTW...love the "Chemistry for Dummies" book they referenced finding in your house when they busted you and Natalie.









Don't even think we had anything to do with this guy's motive. BK you can not quit can you? you have more enemy's then just with us and I am sure you already know this so don't go blaim us when another enemy of yours comes out from the dark. We had nothing to do with this and I have no clue who this guy is. since you going around blaim us for this I am starting to like that guy now.

[dumac]

i really doubt he is going to get killed

you never know. steroids are also sold by dealers of other drugs and we know they can be a little crazy.

[IBE Labs]

You know BK I was a fool to ever think you would be honorable or professional in any way. You know for a man asking not to be judged, you are doing a lot of judging. It is your commentary and demeanor that makes you smell like a rat, not the fact that you are in a whole heap of legal ****. I can say that I sympathize for what you are going through, because it sucks, but you knew what you were doing to get yourself busted and obviously thought it was worth the risk at the time. Now you have to face up for your actions, hopefully you use more honor in your handling of getting out of your charges than you act on these boards. You want to be quick to call other companies bottom feeders and shady, but from were I stand you are the biggest leech of them all. You really expect people to believe that you are flying to china for holiday and frequenting the Arnold Classic after the amount of federal charges you are facing. You act like I needed permission to move into another parish, but you fly out of the country.....so what does that say about you. You obviously have some sort of idea of what the whole cutting a deal process is about. You see there is a difference between me and you. The large barrels of suspicious substance they carried out of my house were non-controlled chemicals such as calcium sterate, l-tyrosine, alpha-ketoglutarate, phenibut, etc, etc. You think these cops weren't itching to charge us with something after the big media scene they created. The fact is at the end of the day they couldn't even charge us with the infamous research chemicals......no one wanted the case because there is no case and never was a case, period. Yes, they could have charged us for the misdemenor marijuana charge and the personal possession of steroids (wait a bottle of unlabelled pills of 50-60 count)......but why would they after they made such fools of themselves proclaiming our bust to be the biggest in jefferson parish history. The last we heard before the charges were refused is that they were trying to get us on fines for how we set up our business after federal and state refused to tak the case. Our lawyer handed them the 3 inch book of evidence my wife personally prepared and slapped it on their desk and said you have no case. No deals needed, capish.
You know why we re-opened our business to begin with, because we were not doing anything illegal. And we did get legal consultation before doing so. You can think whatever you want about me, at this point I really don't care, but one thing you can never call me is a stinking rat. You on the other hand, it is questionable. You know what is really comical here, is the fact that you are trying to make us look bad for a misdemeanor weed possession charge....do you know the % of people in america smoke weed.....and then you come to a bodybuilding board and try to bash someone for having personal use......how many units of expired steroids did they pull out of your house, oh wait I mean apartment. What a tool......

Some final closing comments in rebutle....



Lets see...

1) You get raided by federal, state and county officials and the papers say you get caught with a trough of GBL, GHB, steroids and half an ounce of weed (and manufacturing equipment).


Manufacturing equipment, yeah a postal scale and a few beakers........




2) The scene was such a mess a HAZMAT team had to be flown in from 3 states away to clean out your house.


Actually texas is only 1 state away and yes, they looked at all the big barrels and knew it was out of their hands to be able to test. The dea had everything tested within a week and refused to remark any further. I guess Harry Lee was pretty pissed we he got that bill.......scratching his head.




3) You yourself posted that the "steroids were yours...etc." so you admitted you were in possession (with intent) of quite a bit of gear in public on the internet. You did this yourself, Eddie!


I guess if you call less than 100 pills, quite a bit....... if mine is quite a bit, then yours must have been "holy ****balls"




4) Even if we believe you about the GHB/GBL not being "real" or testing out, that still leaves the steroids (which you admitted to in public) and the 12 grams of weed (which would have been a second offense for your wife...did you know your wife got busted for weed in 1999 or did you meet her afterwards?).



Now this is really comical.... know you are going to pick on my wife when she was 19 and went to a florida rave party...Zen and happened to get pulled over with a joint in the car for having out of state plates, come on BK, you can do better than that.


PS - Now you started this war between us all over again just because you think we have something to do with this post. You jumped the gun and are dead wrong. I have nothing to do with these skeletons. It is nice that you try to distract the public eye from the truth of this post to try to start **** with IBE once again. You should have thought a bit or PM'd before openly starting to bash us again.

[Nailbomb9]

I was lucky and did 85 percent. 2 18 month sentences, concurrent. Was out in 16 or so. And that was as good as it could have gotten, without the drug program, which didnt make sense to me to do.

Followed by halfway house.

A few months in a medium security

A few in a low

Finished in a camp

Transferred to another camp

To a halfway house

To this lovely place I am now where I can smell rats without even being in the same town as them :)

Tt
Man, everytime I tell everyone just how HUGE "performance enhancers" are in sports some thread like this makes me think that maybe I don't even realize!! The reason for this post was the fact you did time and are talking about other people doing time which is leads me to believe that there is a ****LOAD of money involved also...

[DavidCream]

there is some serious **** goin on in this thread...it should be marked with a biohazard sign or somethin

[the_real_train]

Your really a lot stupider than I thought. I don't and never have lived in Stoughton you meatball so why would the Stoughton PD come to visit me?

See, this is the problem with "gym bros" who think they are well informed but really aren't.

I never said I was not arrested. I wrote I was never visited by the Stoughton PD, in a Stoughton PD squad car, or in the Stoughton station. I certainly was charged (this is public info) and plead "not guilty" so that sort of blows your theory right out of the water, doesn't it, Tony? Yeah, I made bond too - imagine that? All of this info is obtainable in the public domain in 5 minutes by anyone who has a brain. You made claim to having one but I am really not seeing this now. You didn't do your homework - you listened to a bunch of gymbags spewing hot air and took it as fact which is why you are talking out of your keister now.

You can think and speculate what you like. It's a free country. You're obviously way off and wrong. But if this speculating thing gives you comfort and makes you feel good, do it. Do you feel good? Special? Even though you are completely wrong in what your posted you really do not care. Posting nonsense that sounds good makes you feel somehow vindicated, doesn't it? You should see if you can get a job as a journalist since they aren't interested in facts either. Now there is an idea!

You can think I am cooperating too if you like. Although it is a little difficult to cooperate after you have been formally charged in a court room before a sitting judge.

You could, if you had half a clue and were interested in truth, easily look up where/whom arrested me and who led the investigation. But you're interested in character assassination and pointing fingers and not truth.

I would also expect, especially from someone who claims to be "what he is" that you would also know that a lot of the stuff reported in newspapers ends up being untrue or at the least, quite inflammatory and its highly unlikely you ever get a retraction.

I'm not going to fall into your little trap - you know VERY well I can't comment on my legal situation in public since it is ongoing. To do so might lead to evidence that could be used against me. So the garbage about "why don't you just clear this up for all of us" is a moot point, and you knew it was a moot point. But it makes you sound like you're giving me a bona fide opp to clear the air and makes you seem legit and like a "good bro" - right?

You obviously do believe everything you read and hear as truth. Nothing I could say or post would dissuade you from that anyhow so this is a waste of time. You've already convicted me of whatever you think I am guilty of in your head and whether this is remotely the situation is 100% immaterial to you. Nothing is going to change your mind. So for me to try to would be a waste of my time and yours.

If you are so interested in "outting" people you think are collaborating witnesses how come you haven't posted a damned thing about someone else who recently posted in this thread who got busted THREE YEARS ago and who is not only still "out" but is still selling research chemicals from a website?

I mean, if the feds/locals busted me the last thing I would do even if I was cleared would be to sell grey area research chems from a website. That would be like asking for a return visit. Unless some sort of deal was cut.
Right, Tony?

You're trying to bust my balls in particular and I have a pretty good idea why.
Just tell the idiots pulling your strings that I can break their balls right back and a whole lot harder.

Bust away, Tony! :)

First off, Im not a "gym bro". I was a steroid dealer, plain and simple.

And the actual town you live in / vistited you doesnt matter. The issue here is that the FEDS DID VISIT and yet you claim to have no charges. That hardly blows my theory out of the water. My theory isnt that Stoughton arrested you, you simple minded short sighted buffoon. Dont try to pull people's attention from the core of the matter.

I believe you have no federal charges.

ONLY BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU WOULD COOPERATE EARLY ON.

And yes, someone can be a rat and continue to sell research chems. The main rat that got me was allowed to almost operate business as usual, while informing on everyone he worked with. Now, they wont be interested in your research chem customers... except where they might talk to you about other stuff - Mr. GAC, Mr. Red Star, Mr. Informer.

And the other thing is bro, I havent read anything on this board. I came here specificially looking to call you out as a rat because I saw you posting about other "rats" and found it disgusting of you. I am not involved in your industry. I am not in any circle of people you might know, unless you know some LOCAL (boston area) bad guys. You have no idea who I am. I dont **** around on these boards much anymore at all. I used them to make money illegally and now that I am well-behaved, they have no real use for me except when I am feeling nostalgic or hear about you talking **** about "rats"


You got visited by the feds.
You agreed to cooperate in exchange for a pretrial diversion, if you were able to give them enough stuff of note.
You have not gotten charged by the feds yet because this is the agreement you made.
They didnt visit you just to say hi.
You all walked away with an agreement. You were able to have your lawyer present, and you signed an agreement to cooperate with ongoing investigations, give them a brief on everything you know.
Otherwise, youd be looking at a minimum of 15 in Fed Prison, and you know it.

I think its an extra 60 months per gun, legally licensed or not?


Dont insult our intelligence.

[the_real_train]

Tell ya what.. PM me, admit youre a rat, and Ill go away.

Tt

[Navets22]

need to send over some pipe hittin brothers with a pair of plyers and a blowtorch.

i was thinking the same thing....

Pipe hittin brothers

Blow torches

Plyers

and get mideviel on his azz.



"A rat doesnt deserve to eat, sleep, or shiiiit."

Tony Soprano

[the_real_train]

i was thinking the same thing....

Pipe hittin brothers

Blow torches

Plyers

and get mideviel on his azz.



"A rat doesnt deserve to eat, sleep, or shiiiit."

Tony Soprano


Oh stop it. You wouldnt do 15 years for your bodybuilding buddies online either.

Tt

[Kohen_Gadol]

Tell ya what.. PM me, admit youre a rat, and Ill go away.

Tt

Not gonna happen. I am not going to admit to being something I am not. If you knew who my attorney is (Rick Collins) you would know, as everyone else who retained him knows, I can't cooperate with LE as part of my retainer agreement with Rick. If I did, it would taint his ability to represent anyone I would have snitched on as a future client and would greatly curtail his ability to gather new business.

You know I can't address any of your hyperbole with a pending case. To do so might incriminate myself. And I am obviously not going to do that in order to convince/impress some internet meatball type who is bitter because someone (someone we both happen to know) dimed him out and now he feels that anyone whose case doesn't go down the exact way his went down is a snitch. It doesn't matter to you what the facts are - even those facts that are clearly available online. It doesn't matter if what was reported in the media was true, partially true, or patently false. You just want to make sure someone you have convicted of whatever it is in your own mind gets what you think that person deserves or else if the guy gets one day less time (or no time or something in between) that means he "must be a snitch" because it just wouldn't be fair. Well, life is not fair. Get over it.

You seem to think I am some government informant. That's fine. Just exactly who do you think I could snitch on even if I wanted to?

I suppose you were indicted, convicted/plead out and went off the club fed a week after your arrest too, right? Maybe you could not make bond and sat in Dedham for months on end, maybe you made bond and sat at home for months on end. Maybe you had a PD who really didn't care about your case and read the docket 5 minutes before getting you in front of a judge. Lotsa maybe's, eh?

I think we can agree to the following:

1) You're convinced I am a snitch.

2) There is nothing I can say or do do convince you otherwise.

3) Thus, further debate on this subject is a pretty much a waste of time.

4) You'll probably keep posting in this thread anyhow.

Ironically, we both have an intense dislike for the same guy. He certainly dimed you out (among like what? 20 other people!) and he tried really hard to dime me out too. Yeah, I got a knock and they did not have a warrant and I let them in anyhow. I immediately called my local attorney who told me not to answer any questions until she got there. So I made the two guys coffee and told them to wait. Twenty minutes later, my counsel shows up, asked them if they were arresting me (they said "not at this time, we like to ask him some questions about how he knows MC...etc.") and she asked them to leave and contact her if they wished to speak with me again.

Not all of us are "felony stupid" and blurt out everything and anything in some cathartic confessional - some of us have the presence of mind to keep silent and wait for an attorney, you do realize you have the right to remain silent (you personally may not have the ability to do such but that is a different topic for a different day).

Yeah, I am amazed our mutual buddy is not doing serious time considering he got dinged what? Four or five times and amazingly he managed to skate all times. Imagine that? Since you do not speak with him (neither do I, can you blame either one of us) you might like to know that karma is biting him hard in the rear side - I hear he has a very terminal cardiac condition and literally has a matter of years left to live. I do not wish anyone ill but hey...if anyone had it coming this guy did.

The thing I love about this industry/sport is everyone is convinced everyone else is a snitch. I remember when a very prominent bb'er got busted for GH and did 5 months in Morgantown. Everyone everywhere was yelling, "snitch, snitch he only got 5 months in a minimum security facility, surely he snitched on a ton of people!" - the truth is I *KNOW* he did not, I *KNOW* he would never do this because he is a stand up guy, I *KNOW* he was dimed out by 2 of his "friends" and I *KNOW* he made a very conscious choice to "let it end with him" and do the time. AFAIK, he has no prior law issues so why would is shock anyone he only got 5 months? What, he should be locked up for 30 months on a first offense with a 30 year clean history prior to this?
BTW...he also had Rick Collins as his attorney (and I would not trade this guy for anyone).

But even today, at shows, I hear the whispers, "he was a rat, he only did 5 months, it was minimum security, it had to be a snitch" when in fact, he would not and could not snitch.

I see guys like you all the time. You went through the system and now you think you're an expert on the system because of the particulars of your case.
Maybe you were the jailhouse lawyer? I dunno, it really doesn't matter that much in the long run.

You still didn't do your homework. You still are making erroneous assumptions which would absolutely change your POV if you spent more time doing research and less time jawing.

I actually feel a little for you - partly. I do not think anyone deserves to be dimed out on (and I was absolutely dimed out on, something you would know if you did 30 seconds of research) but if I am found guilty at trial or change my plea, I'll have to do my penance like it or not. Pointing fingers is not going to change that.

The funny thing is we both agree you were snitched out on and we both know who is responsible, you admit to doing things that were extra-legal (in some great detail) but despite this, I do not see or infer any accountability on your part for your actions. It's like none of what happened to you is in anyway your fault or responsibility. You think that is fair?

I'm going to end this here, I do not see how any further comment is going to do anything. You made up your mind long before Anthony had you sign on to bust my chops. Nothing I could have posted would have changed that short of risking incriminating myself. And (no offense) you're not worth me possibly incriminating myself to satiate your curiosity and bitterness.

So fire away with the accusations and keep believing the "good bro network" and do what it is you like.

It's going to be easy to forget about you - bb.com has a pretty cool "ignore" feature.

Good luck! :)

[Kohen_Gadol]

You know BK I was a fool to ever think you would be honorable or professional in any way. You know for a man asking not to be judged, you are doing a lot of judging. It is your commentary and demeanor that makes you smell like a rat, not the fact that you are in a whole heap of legal ****. I can say that I sympathize for what you are going through, because it sucks, but you knew what you were doing to get yourself busted and obviously thought it was worth the risk at the time. Now you have to face up for your actions, hopefully you use more honor in your handling of getting out of your charges than you act on these boards. You want to be quick to call other companies bottom feeders and shady, but from were I stand you are the biggest leech of them all. You really expect people to believe that you are flying to china for holiday and frequenting the Arnold Classic after the amount of federal charges you are facing. You act like I needed permission to move into another parish, but you fly out of the country.....so what does that say about you. You obviously have some sort of idea of what the whole cutting a deal process is about. You see there is a difference between me and you. The large barrels of suspicious substance they carried out of my house were non-controlled chemicals such as calcium sterate, l-tyrosine, alpha-ketoglutarate, phenibut, etc, etc. You think these cops weren't itching to charge us with something after the big media scene they created. The fact is at the end of the day they couldn't even charge us with the infamous research chemicals......no one wanted the case because there is no case and never was a case, period. Yes, they could have charged us for the misdemenor marijuana charge and the personal possession of steroids (wait a bottle of unlabelled pills of 50-60 count)......but why would they after they made such fools of themselves proclaiming our bust to be the biggest in jefferson parish history. The last we heard before the charges were refused is that they were trying to get us on fines for how we set up our business after federal and state refused to tak the case. Our lawyer handed them the 3 inch book of evidence my wife personally prepared and slapped it on their desk and said you have no case. No deals needed, capish.
You know why we re-opened our business to begin with, because we were not doing anything illegal. And we did get legal consultation before doing so. You can think whatever you want about me, at this point I really don't care, but one thing you can never call me is a stinking rat. You on the other hand, it is questionable. You know what is really comical here, is the fact that you are trying to make us look bad for a misdemeanor weed possession charge....do you know the % of people in america smoke weed.....and then you come to a bodybuilding board and try to bash someone for having personal use......how many units of expired steroids did they pull out of your house, oh wait I mean apartment. What a tool......

Some final closing comments in rebutle....



Manufacturing equipment, yeah a postal scale and a few beakers........



Actually texas is only 1 state away and yes, they looked at all the big barrels and knew it was out of their hands to be able to test. The dea had everything tested within a week and refused to remark any further. I guess Harry Lee was pretty pissed we he got that bill.......scratching his head.



I guess if you call less than 100 pills, quite a bit....... if mine is quite a bit, then yours must have been "holy ****balls"



Now this is really comical.... know you are going to pick on my wife when she was 19 and went to a florida rave party...Zen and happened to get pulled over with a joint in the car for having out of state plates, come on BK, you can do better than that.


PS - Now you started this war between us all over again just because you think we have something to do with this post. You jumped the gun and are dead wrong. I have nothing to do with these skeletons. It is nice that you try to distract the public eye from the truth of this post to try to start **** with IBE once again. You should have thought a bit or PM'd before openly starting to bash us again.

Hey Eddie, spare me the sanctimonius BS. You think it is funny this guy is hassling me for something I know is not true. You and your crew of bayou retards pulled the same crap maybe a month ago in other threads. First it was I was on house arrest, then it was I am a snitch, whatever.

So...how do you like being convicted in the court of public opinions based solely on what was in the newspaper, Eddie? Did it piss you off? I bet it did!

Your new friend here isn't going to believe anything that comes out of my mouth and is not going to spend 5 minutes reading the media reports either. He's going to use the infamous "good bro network" for his misinfornation.

I dunno, maybe everything you post is true Eddie. Can you prove it? Can you scan pdf files of the disposition of your case showing that they didn't find all that stuff in your house? I mean, the media and journalists wouldn't lie about you or fail to post a retraction, would they Eddie?

Whether I think you are a snitch or not is really not the point. The point is you don't like people pointing fingers in your face calling you a snitch based on media accounts only yet you think it is wonderful and funny when other people do it to someone else.

I'm not calling you a snitch, Eddie. I just think based on the reports in the media about you and your wife that it seems really odd. Now would the media lie, Eddie? :)

And why should I (or anyone) take your word for it that you're not cooperating when you won't take mine?

I mean, you do not think its a bit odd that they found grass and steroids (which you admit to) and then you claim those "chemicals were L-Tyrosine and Phenibut" (and maybe they were) and then the sheriffs department is like, "awwww shucks...we got nothing but some dope and steroids, just because we couldn't tag them federally under RICO we should just forget about the weed and juice we found, its a waste of time...", man, after the money they spend on a HAZMAT team to clean up your place, right or wrong, needed or not, I am surprised they wouldn't charge you with farting in the wrong direction if that is all they could get on you.

No, I do not know you're cooperating or not. I do know you and your wife had a small child present when you were busted and I can easily see some "good cop/bad cop" sitting you and the wifer down and saying, "start naming names or you're going to do X years a piece and your boy gets to grow up in a foster home" or something like that. Did it happen? How do I know?!?

But you seem to get off when other people are being accused of things based on crap in the media. I just wanted to show you once again how it feels when the shoe is on the other foot, Eddie.

Looks like (once again) I managed to get right under your skin and piss you off. Mission accomplished.

Now here is a real bombshell for you, bayou boy - you claim none of those there chemicals they found in your house were illegal. Despite the newspapers accounts. Did you ever think maybe the same thing happened to someone else and perhaps the forensics reports might not have panned out the way certain people thought they would? Of course this is not exciting, headline news and is 8 months after the initial bust so why would the papers or TV say anything about it?

You came sniffing around here the moment this guy starts busting my chops (as did your "friend" Anthony Roberts...and do I have some interesting dirt on him I could fire away with if I wanted to).

You can't be shocked I took a shot at you, Eddie? What, with all those TV and newspaper reports about your bust?

Maybe it was vitamins, oregano and prohormones they found in your place. Maybe you are telling the truth. Maybe.

But why should you get the benefit of the doubt when you're blasting away at me and your crew blasted away at me before?

BTW...I did not leave the country once since my stuff went down, it was a condition of my bond. Although I was not banned from interstate travel (and in fact, I am not currently banned from interstate travel) so going to the ASC was like going down the road to the supermarket, buddy.

Advice: spend the $5K and get a consult with Collins and his group on your little "research chemicals" side business. A guy a lot nicer than you who posts here quite a bit got whacked hard by the FDA for selling research chemicals a lot less "egregious" than what you guys purport to sell on your website. I find it preposteroud that the feds have zero interest in your research website after what you claim is a "failed bust by them" - you do not think they would have you in the crosshairs and would be watching you like hawks? Bleh, bleh, bleh...stop it with the "its for research use only and its all legal" - that is not going to fly for 5 minutes and you know it. A judge surely isn't going to buy into it considering you own a sports nutrition company too and the research chemicals you claim to sell would predominantly of interest to bodybuilder types, Eddie. I think the feds would have ZERO issues with showing a nexus there, especially if there is even one nickel of colluded funds between "companies."

You seem to think I hate you - I don't. I would like you to be more honest and responsible. www.cmgesq.com is Rick's website...you really should have a sit down with those guys before you get into real trouble. Assuming that is (and unlike you, I will give you the benefit of the doubt) you're not a snitch and you're not operating with the permission of the feds so you can appear "OK" while you roll on the world.

Good luck, Eddie.

[the_real_train]

Not gonna happen. I am not going to admit to being something I am not. If you knew who my attorney is (Rick Collins) you would know, as everyone else who retained him knows, I can't cooperate with LE as part of my retainer agreement with Rick. If I did, it would taint his ability to represent anyone I would have snitched on as a future client and would greatly curtail his ability to gather new business.

You know I can't address any of your hyperbole with a pending case. To do so might incriminate myself. And I am obviously not going to do that in order to convince/impress some internet meatball type who is bitter because someone (someone we both happen to know) dimed him out and now he feels that anyone whose case doesn't go down the exact way his went down is a snitch. It doesn't matter to you what the facts are - even those facts that are clearly available online. It doesn't matter if what was reported in the media was true, partially true, or patently false. You just want to make sure someone you have convicted of whatever it is in your own mind gets what you think that person deserves or else if the guy gets one day less time (or no time or something in between) that means he "must be a snitch" because it just wouldn't be fair. Well, life is not fair. Get over it.

You seem to think I am some government informant. That's fine. Just exactly who do you think I could snitch on even if I wanted to?

I suppose you were indicted, convicted/plead out and went off the club fed a week after your arrest too, right? Maybe you could not make bond and sat in Dedham for months on end, maybe you made bond and sat at home for months on end. Maybe you had a PD who really didn't care about your case and read the docket 5 minutes before getting you in front of a judge. Lotsa maybe's, eh?

I think we can agree to the following:

1) You're convinced I am a snitch.

2) There is nothing I can say or do do convince you otherwise.

3) Thus, further debate on this subject is a pretty much a waste of time.

4) You'll probably keep posting in this thread anyhow.

Ironically, we both have an intense dislike for the same guy. He certainly dimed you out (among like what? 20 other people!) and he tried really hard to dime me out too. Yeah, I got a knock and they did not have a warrant and I let them in anyhow. I immediately called my local attorney who told me not to answer any questions until she got there. So I made the two guys coffee and told them to wait. Twenty minutes later, my counsel shows up, asked them if they were arresting me (they said "not at this time, we like to ask him some questions about how he knows MC...etc.") and she asked them to leave and contact her if they wished to speak with me again.

Not all of us are "felony stupid" and blurt out everything and anything in some cathartic confessional - some of us have the presence of mind to keep silent and wait for an attorney, you do realize you have the right to remain silent (you personally may not have the ability to do such but that is a different topic for a different day).

Yeah, I am amazed our mutual buddy is not doing serious time considering he got dinged what? Four or five times and amazingly he managed to skate all times. Imagine that? Since you do not speak with him (neither do I, can you blame either one of us) you might like to know that karma is biting him hard in the rear side - I hear he has a very terminal cardiac condition and literally has a matter of years left to live. I do not wish anyone ill but hey...if anyone had it coming this guy did.

The thing I love about this industry/sport is everyone is convinced everyone else is a snitch. I remember when a very prominent bb'er got busted for GH and did 5 months in Morgantown. Everyone everywhere was yelling, "snitch, snitch he only got 5 months in a minimum security facility, surely he snitched on a ton of people!" - the truth is I *KNOW* he did not, I *KNOW* he would never do this because he is a stand up guy, I *KNOW* he was dimed out by 2 of his "friends" and I *KNOW* he made a very conscious choice to "let it end with him" and do the time. AFAIK, he has no prior law issues so why would is shock anyone he only got 5 months? What, he should be locked up for 30 months on a first offense with a 30 year clean history prior to this?
BTW...he also had Rick Collins as his attorney (and I would not trade this guy for anyone).

But even today, at shows, I hear the whispers, "he was a rat, he only did 5 months, it was minimum security, it had to be a snitch" when in fact, he would not and could not snitch.

I see guys like you all the time. You went through the system and now you think you're an expert on the system because of the particulars of your case.
Maybe you were the jailhouse lawyer? I dunno, it really doesn't matter that much in the long run.

You still didn't do your homework. You still are making erroneous assumptions which would absolutely change your POV if you spent more time doing research and less time jawing.

I actually feel a little for you - partly. I do not think anyone deserves to be dimed out on (and I was absolutely dimed out on, something you would know if you did 30 seconds of research) but if I am found guilty at trial or change my plea, I'll have to do my penance like it or not. Pointing fingers is not going to change that.

The funny thing is we both agree you were snitched out on and we both know who is responsible, you admit to doing things that were extra-legal (in some great detail) but despite this, I do not see or infer any accountability on your part for your actions. It's like none of what happened to you is in anyway your fault or responsibility. You think that is fair?

I'm going to end this here, I do not see how any further comment is going to do anything. You made up your mind long before Anthony had you sign on to bust my chops. Nothing I could have posted would have changed that short of risking incriminating myself. And (no offense) you're not worth me possibly incriminating myself to satiate your curiosity and bitterness.

So fire away with the accusations and keep believing the "good bro network" and do what it is you like.

It's going to be easy to forget about you - bb.com has a pretty cool "ignore" feature.

Good luck! :)

Will not be an 'ignore' feature in the can, home boy.

And you are (i think deliberately) ignoring the fact that I am not speaking from the 'good ol boy network' or as a 'gym guy' or anything. I got 2 federal indictments and did time for this ****. I was locked up with hundreds of guys and thousands of guys and there are certain TRUTHS that you realize when you get into this ****. Im sure you are beginning to become aware yourself. They dont need evidence. There is constructive possession, mandatory sentencing guidelines, conspiracy charges, and heresay is admissable. Changes things a bit, no? Bet it amazed you when your lawyer told you about it, right?
Im sure someone told on you. Thats how it works.

You dont know who I am, and yeah, this will end here. All I wanted was for people to think twice about you. My case was more about money and setting a precedent (was the first real case involving the net and Mexico and juice/drugs... is that a hint or what?). I just want people who are talking to know that they are likely talking to someone who is involved in a deal.

As well they should, no?

Good luck in your case(s)

Rick Collins is an Attorney with a marketing angle. If your case is indeed local (which I doubt) youd be better off with the guy in Brockton who never loses (and whos name escapes me right now... ) or my guy in S Boston (Cashman).

As far as him not taking cases from anyone who cooperates, thats laughable. Maybe he cant work with anyone who already GOT a deal, but he makes deals. The only reason ANY lawyer would want all their cases to go to trial is for $$$. 98 percent of federal defendants lose at trial.

98 percent lose at trial. He is going to force you to be one of them? I doubt it. And if you signed on to that, youre crazy. Youll get 3x the time. Plead out early and take your lumps. Thats my advice.

They are the sleaziest of the bunch... and you will probably agree with me when your crap is over. Although, some do what they say they will.

And I think you could tell on plenty of people. Maybe overseas? Maybe here? But Im sure you know a few folks :)


Take care.

- The Biggest Bald dude that ever rode around Stoughton in a Cadillac

[Outside backer]

whoa this is gettin nuts

[the_real_train]

whoa this is gettin nuts

Its not gettin nuts. Its finally being spelled out logically.

It was nuts before.

Think about it fellas... truly. Just use your brains.

Tt

[matpal]

Without implying anything, I think I have authority to speak on research chemicals, and quite simply, you stating that they could not or would not charge you with selling them is simply not correct.

The FDA is $150,000 richer because of me, not to mention the $250,000 more that I lost...and I was not doing anywhere near the volume as other RC places.

Simply, if they wanted to, they would have you and every other RC place by the balls. End of story.


You know BK I was a fool to ever think you would be honorable or professional in any way. You know for a man asking not to be judged, you are doing a lot of judging. It is your commentary and demeanor that makes you smell like a rat, not the fact that you are in a whole heap of legal ****. I can say that I sympathize for what you are going through, because it sucks, but you knew what you were doing to get yourself busted and obviously thought it was worth the risk at the time. Now you have to face up for your actions, hopefully you use more honor in your handling of getting out of your charges than you act on these boards. You want to be quick to call other companies bottom feeders and shady, but from were I stand you are the biggest leech of them all. You really expect people to believe that you are flying to china for holiday and frequenting the Arnold Classic after the amount of federal charges you are facing. You act like I needed permission to move into another parish, but you fly out of the country.....so what does that say about you. You obviously have some sort of idea of what the whole cutting a deal process is about. You see there is a difference between me and you. The large barrels of suspicious substance they carried out of my house were non-controlled chemicals such as calcium sterate, l-tyrosine, alpha-ketoglutarate, phenibut, etc, etc. You think these cops weren't itching to charge us with something after the big media scene they created. The fact is at the end of the day they couldn't even charge us with the infamous research chemicals......no one wanted the case because there is no case and never was a case, period. Yes, they could have charged us for the misdemenor marijuana charge and the personal possession of steroids (wait a bottle of unlabelled pills of 50-60 count)......but why would they after they made such fools of themselves proclaiming our bust to be the biggest in jefferson parish history. The last we heard before the charges were refused is that they were trying to get us on fines for how we set up our business after federal and state refused to tak the case. Our lawyer handed them the 3 inch book of evidence my wife personally prepared and slapped it on their desk and said you have no case. No deals needed, capish.
You know why we re-opened our business to begin with, because we were not doing anything illegal. And we did get legal consultation before doing so. You can think whatever you want about me, at this point I really don't care, but one thing you can never call me is a stinking rat. You on the other hand, it is questionable. You know what is really comical here, is the fact that you are trying to make us look bad for a misdemeanor weed possession charge....do you know the % of people in america smoke weed.....and then you come to a bodybuilding board and try to bash someone for having personal use......how many units of expired steroids did they pull out of your house, oh wait I mean apartment. What a tool......

Some final closing comments in rebutle....



Manufacturing equipment, yeah a postal scale and a few beakers........



Actually texas is only 1 state away and yes, they looked at all the big barrels and knew it was out of their hands to be able to test. The dea had everything tested within a week and refused to remark any further. I guess Harry Lee was pretty pissed we he got that bill.......scratching his head.



I guess if you call less than 100 pills, quite a bit....... if mine is quite a bit, then yours must have been "holy ****balls"



Now this is really comical.... know you are going to pick on my wife when she was 19 and went to a florida rave party...Zen and happened to get pulled over with a joint in the car for having out of state plates, come on BK, you can do better than that.


PS - Now you started this war between us all over again just because you think we have something to do with this post. You jumped the gun and are dead wrong. I have nothing to do with these skeletons. It is nice that you try to distract the public eye from the truth of this post to try to start **** with IBE once again. You should have thought a bit or PM'd before openly starting to bash us again.

[the_real_train]

Without implying anything, I think I have authority to speak on research chemicals, and quite simply, you stating that they could not or would not charge you with selling them is simply not correct.

The FDA is $150,000 richer because of me, not to mention the $250,000 more that I lost...and I was not doing anywhere near the volume as other RC places.

Simply, if they wanted to, they would have you and every other RC place by the balls. End of story.


This is true... and they got me for $2.7mil.

How do I feel?

:)

Tt

[the_real_train]

Without implying anything, I think I have authority to speak on research chemicals, and quite simply, you stating that they could not or would not charge you with selling them is simply not correct.

The FDA is $150,000 richer because of me, not to mention the $250,000 more that I lost...and I was not doing anywhere near the volume as other RC places.

Simply, if they wanted to, they would have you and every other RC place by the balls. End of story.


This is true... and they got me for $2.7mil.

How do I feel?

:)

Tt

[hooker]

You came sniffing around here the moment this guy starts busting my chops (as did your "friend" Anthony Roberts...and do I have some interesting dirt on him I could fire away with if I wanted to).
.

I wish I was interesting enough to have something in my past which could be considered "dirt"...

I did 6.5 months (overseas) for posession of E, and there were some silly rumours about me going around the boards recently, but that's about it.

[DejaBlue55]

More talking please. Cool thread.

[the_real_train]

More talking please. Cool thread.


I want to stress to the board that I have no interest in this besides that I want people to be safe and believe that Bruce is only human, and working to keep himself from catching federal charges.

Also, Bruce, you dont know who I am, and it amazes me. How many drug busts happened in Canton that made CNN? Then again, I dont talk to the people in your circle. I was a dealer. I didnt pretend to be any sort of legit. I didnt even make up fake articles about myself or the company whos products I pushed. We were the first to publish lab results. The first to make a 300mg Deca. We let the product speak for itself... and didnt have the benefit of a podium such as your GACself. You know a dude named Leroy? He sure likes to talk about you. Fat bastard that he is.

And our area, the south shore, is a small area. People talk. Funny that nobody knows you locally. Funny.

So good luck to everyone. I am not "Tony" - and dont want to give anyone the wrong idea. I dont even know Bruce. But I know the system, and I know the feds, and I know that you should be ashamed of yourselves for even lettting this dude have an account here. When I got banned from Varix, even though I was a mod, I understood. And this is when being a mod meant something... or, as much as any of this online bullstuff can mean.

People make a LOT of money off of your ignorance. And people do hard, hard time for their own.

Peace and love,

Tt from just off route 138, around the corner from Bruce.

[SF_Muscle_]

Wow, I learned a lot from this thread.

[Travis71902]

Cliffs?:D

[hooker]

are his initials mm?

No.

[DejaBlue55]

I want to stress to the board that I have no interest in this besides that I want people to be safe and believe that Bruce is only human, and working to keep himself from catching federal charges.

Also, Bruce, you dont know who I am, and it amazes me. How many drug busts happened in Canton that made CNN? Then again, I dont talk to the people in your circle. I was a dealer. I didnt pretend to be any sort of legit. I didnt even make up fake articles about myself or the company whos products I pushed. We were the first to publish lab results. The first to make a 300mg Deca. We let the product speak for itself... and didnt have the benefit of a podium such as your GACself. You know a dude named Leroy? He sure likes to talk about you. Fat bastard that he is.

And our area, the south shore, is a small area. People talk. Funny that nobody knows you locally. Funny.

So good luck to everyone. I am not "Tony" - and dont want to give anyone the wrong idea. I dont even know Bruce. But I know the system, and I know the feds, and I know that you should be ashamed of yourselves for even lettting this dude have an account here. When I got banned from Varix, even though I was a mod, I understood. And this is when being a mod meant something... or, as much as any of this online bullstuff can mean.

People make a LOT of money off of your ignorance. And people do hard, hard time for their own.

Peace and love,

Tt from just off route 138, around the corner from Bruce.
Are you still a millionaire?

[hooker]

Are you still a millionaire?

No, he isn't. I think he has the potential to be one again though...especially in nutrition. It's a pretty soft industry.

[DejaBlue55]

No, he isn't. I think he has the potential to be one again though...especially in nutrition. It's a pretty soft industry.
What do you mean by soft? Also, are you the Anothony Roberts that everyone dislikes on Avant Labs?

[Zachattack43]

What do you mean by soft? Also, are you the Anothony Roberts that everyone dislikes on Avant Labs?

yes he is

[hooker]

What do you mean by soft? Also, are you the Anothony Roberts that everyone dislikes on Avant Labs?

I'm Anthony Roberts, yes. By soft, I mean it's not a difficult industry to make a ton of money in. I left Avant on good terms with the owner, who I occasionally still talk to....in fact, when they wanted Eric Cressey to write for them, they dropped my name as one of their guys...and I believe my name still happens to be on one of the banners they use to advertise their online magazine. Other than that, I don't know what the forums are like, or what the members think about me (or anything). It wasn't a good fit, business-wise, for me to be there, from their point of view as well as mine, so we parted ways. I'm disliked by a lot of people for a lot of reasons...I can't keep up with that kind of thing anymore.

:^)>

[the_real_train]

I'm Anthony Roberts, yes. By soft, I mean it's not a difficult industry to make a ton of money in. I left Avant on good terms with the owner, who I occasionally still talk to....in fact, when they wanted Eric Cressey to write for them, they dropped my name as one of their guys...and I believe my name still happens to be on one of the banners they use to advertise their online magazine. Other than that, I don't know what the forums are like, or what the members think about me (or anything). It wasn't a good fit, business-wise, for me to be there, from their point of view as well as mine, so we parted ways. I'm disliked by a lot of people for a lot of reasons...I can't keep up with that kind of thing anymore.

:^)>


Its because you're bald. Only a-holes shave their heads. And being from Jersey doesnt help either.

:)

J

[hooker]

I was a dealer. I didnt pretend to be any sort of legit. I didnt even make up fake articles about myself or the company whos products I pushed. We were the first to publish lab results. The first to make a 300mg Deca. We let the product speak for itself...

Tt from just off route 138, around the corner from Bruce.

C'mon people...300mg Deca...the first to produce it...

This isn't too hard to figure out, is it?

You gotta have it figured out by now that this is one of the old heads in the game...

[leonidas300]

Rick Collins is an Attorney with a marketing angle. If your case is indeed local (which I doubt) youd be better off with the guy in Brockton who never loses (and whos name escapes me right now... ) or my guy in S Boston (Cashman).

As far as him not taking cases from anyone who cooperates, thats laughable. Maybe he cant work with anyone who already GOT a deal, but he makes deals. The only reason ANY lawyer would want all their cases to go to trial is for $$$. 98 percent of federal defendants lose at trial.

98 percent lose at trial. He is going to force you to be one of them? I doubt it. And if you signed on to that, youre crazy. Youll get 3x the time. Plead out early and take your lumps. Thats my advice.

They are the sleaziest of the bunch... and you will probably agree with me when your crap is over. Although, some do what they say they will.

And I think you could tell on plenty of people. Maybe overseas? Maybe here? But Im sure you know a few folks :)




Bruce, I have to agree with some of this, Rick Collins would be violating every ethical duty to a client that the ABA has ever formulated if he would not consider every option for a client, including making a deal and having a client act as an informer. If he has a former client that would cause a conflict then he has an ethical duty to reject your case. To say that Rick has a retainer agreement in which you are not allowed to act as an informer against a former or potential client is one of the most unethical legal practices I have ever encountered. I truly hope this is not true and if it is I advise you to immediately hire local counsel and maybe just have Rick advise the local counsel as to the complexities of steroid litigation.

[Patrick Arnold]

Bruce, I have to agree with some of this, Rick Collins would be violating every ethical duty to a client that the ABA has ever formulated if he would not consider every option for a client, including making a deal and having a client act as an informer. If he has a client that would cause a conflict then he has an ethical duty to reject your case. To say that Rick has a retainer agreement in which you are not allowed to act as an informer against a former or potential client of Rick's is one of the most unethical legal practices I have ever encountered. I truly hope this is not true.

I am sure it is not written in any contract but he does speak his mind about what he thinks about collaboration.

But that just speaks for the guys values, which are strong. He is definitely one of the more idealistic attorneys out there

[leonidas300]

I am sure it is not written in any contract but he does speak his mind about what he thinks about collaboration.

But that just speaks for the guys values, which are strong. He is definitely one of the more idealistic attorneys out there


Idealism is fine and dandy, that is why I went into law, but Bruce gave the impression that there is a clause in his retainer agreement that forbids collaboration. Additionally, regardless of my own idealism, I have an obligation to my client to minimize his sentence as much as possible, otherwise I am not fulfilling my ethical obligations as a defense attorney. My dad always gave me the lecture on how "nobody likes a rat", and I hate snitches as much as Tony Soprano, but I have a duty to my client to seek out every potential offer, even if it includes collaborating with the police.

[Patrick Arnold]

Idealism is fine and dandy, that is why I went into law, but Bruce gave the impression that there is a clause in his retainer agreement that forbids collaboration. Additionally, regardless of my own idealism, I have an obligation to my client to minimize his sentence as much as possible, otherwise I am not fulfilling my ethical obligations as a defense attorney. My dad always gave me the lecture on how "nobody likes a rat", and I hate snitches as much as Tony Soprano, but I have a duty to my client to seek out every potential offer, even if it includes collaborating with the police.


i hear where you are coming from but i am pretty sure rick made clear that he would step down from a case if someone cooperated. what he probably means though is he would resign himself if someone cooperated on a sentence that is not extraordinarily long. certainly for 10-20 years or more cooperation has to be seriously considered and is not so despicable as it would be for 2 years or less for instance

[leonidas300]

i hear where you are coming from but i am pretty sure rick made clear that he would step down from a case if someone cooperated. what he probably means though is he would resign himself if someone cooperated on a sentence that is not extraordinarily long. certainly for 10-20 years or more cooperation has to be seriously considered and is not so despicable as it would be for 2 years or less for instance

I have only advised a couple of defendant's to cooperate with the police and it was in order to reduce very severe sentences. Most of the time the potential consequences are not worth the effort or trouble to just knock off a couple of years of time (that in reality is only a a few months difference in terms of parole eligibility). I always counsel clients on the potential risk of collaboration ranging from personal harm in the form of retribution, to the emotional harm that can result from "selling out" your friends. Sometimes it is just easier to do the time. I never inject my personal morality into the equation, I just try to fully inform my clients to the best of my ability. I can understand how people get scared of prison and agree to work with the police and it is not my place to pass judgment on them. What I can not understand is how undercover police officers live with themselves, those people are professional liars and seem to have no conscience in who they will betray. The War on Drugs is so perverse when the "good guys" routinely rely on deception, betrayal, and intimidation in order to secure guilty verdicts.

[the_real_train]

I am sure it is not written in any contract but he does speak his mind about what he thinks about collaboration.

But that just speaks for the guys values, which are strong. He is definitely one of the more idealistic attorneys out there


That just speaks to the guy's semblance to every other person out there who decries "rats" and tries to give off the affect of "being a man."

Sir is right, you are clearly, CLEARLY better off with a local attorney who consults with a specialist.

Tt

[the_real_train]

i hear where you are coming from but i am pretty sure rick made clear that he would step down from a case if someone cooperated. what he probably means though is he would resign himself if someone cooperated on a sentence that is not extraordinarily long. certainly for 10-20 years or more cooperation has to be seriously considered and is not so despicable as it would be for 2 years or less for instance

If this WERE true:

Rick would go to trial in every one of his Federal cases or have his clients enter a guilty plea.

According to statistics, when he went to trial, he would lose 98 percent of his cases.

That means he would win 2 percent of the time.

Doesnt sound like a winner to me. I think Id go with a local dude/dudette.


Tt

[the_real_train]

C'mon people...300mg Deca...the first to produce it...

This isn't too hard to figure out, is it?

You gotta have it figured out by now that this is one of the old heads in the game...


First 10mg dbol, too. Problem was that it looked almost identical to the 5mg and in reality, people will pay a buck a tab on the street for any tablet and $10 an amp for anything. Its the idea that sells eventually, not the products (at the end user level... in the gyms... for all you kiddies that have no business messing with your hormonal situations) You could make millions selling Sten and methyltest, if you were so inclined... back then... in the days of old... when Laurabolan suddenly came without a flip-off and people refused to buy it! Goodbye nandrolone laurenate... which is too bad, if you look at it the chemical itself compared to deca.

Anthony, I am a dinosaur. Its cool, actually.

The landscape has changed SO MUCH. The boards are steered by different players now. Here is my synopsis of what happened

- The advent of mainstream internet
- Some boards popped up
- Some dealers said hello
- Some dealers bought into boards
- The feds got into boards (they are always a little behind the initial curve)
- The feds got some of the dealers (Brian, Tommy, youll hit the bricks soon fellas... or at least you will Brian)
- The feds closed down a lot of the SW USA and Mexico activity (thank you Mr. Borleone)
- These kit and powder people said hello (close one door, another opens)
- Gray Market cats got involved (making $ off of the fact that retards like some of you dont know that "Winny-V" isnt a steroid and you cant sell it in the back of a magazine)
- Gray Market and Kit people start paying boards (Liqui-stuff)
- Feds make note of all this, have people inside boards (oh yes they do... Ive seen the admin panels)
- Feds pick off a few powder importers (Bruce? Hallo? Present-day now...)
- Feds begin setting up busts overseas, just like Gear Grinder and Operation TKO (Its funny how they do this, but it amazes me that it works consistantly)

- All the while, slow and steady wins the race, and the dudes in EU who mail you a few amps at a time and take it easy continue to operate with impunity (and rightfully so, because you have idiots throwing up websites and sponsoring boards that are begging for heat and as long as they stay away from narcotics, they cant lose!)

- Big Tt, once a somebody, now a nobody. *sniff*

- Going to release a supplement (sugar water and asprin, in a funky bottle with a picture of a molecule and a chicken on it) and label it "IGF One" to see how fast I will sell out. Maybe a tablet shaped like a pentagon and colored pink that I'll call Thai Pinkies and put in little jars of 1000 with a simple paper label. Ill be rich, and legal. Come to think of it, I think I could make a vitamin called "No, Really... its Steroids I swear!"

:)

[leonidas300]

If this WERE true:

Rick would go to trial in every one of his Federal cases or have his clients enter a guilty plea.

According to statistics, when he went to trial, he would lose 98 percent of his cases.

That means he would win 2 percent of the time.

Doesnt sound like a winner to me. I think Id go with a local dude/dudette.


Tt

Actually the statistics are higher in federal court than 98%, it is actually near 99%. The feds are not like local prosecutors who rely on local cops and have to constantly run for reelection. The feds do not issue an indictment unless they are positive they can win and the agents they rely upon do not screw up the way local cops do. I will take just about any state court case to trial and honestly have a decent chance of beating the offer, if not securing an outright acquittal. You get indicted in federal court prepare to plea bargain, they are very good at that level and rarely make mistakes. Rick Collins is full of it if he claims to take all of his federal cases to trial, that is suicide for a client. Especially considering how the federal sentencing guidelines work that is just a foolish approach. Always rely on local defense counsel and use specialist as consultants, local defense counsel know how judges rule and how individual prosecutors behave, and have relationships with the opposition that is beneficial to a client, and that is invaluable.

[the_real_train]

Actually the statistics are higher in federal court than 98%, it is actually near 99%. The feds are not like local prosecutors who rely on local cops and have to constantly run for reelection. The feds do not issue an indictment unless they are positive they can win and the agents they rely upon do not screw up the way local cops do. I will take just about any state court case to trial and honestly have a decent chance of beating the offer, if not securing an outright acquittal. You get indicted in federal court prepare to plea bargain, they are very good at that level and rarely make mistakes. Rick Collins is full of it if he claims to take all of his federal cases to trial, that is suicide for a client. Especially considering how the federal sentencing guidelines work that is just a foolish approach. Always rely on local defense counsel and use specialist as consultants, local defense counsel know how judges rule and how individual prosecutors behave, and have relationships with the opposition that is beneficial to a client, and that is invaluable.

I agree totally. If I didnt plead guilty to my charges, Id have gotten at least 120 months... and my lawyer even told me that outright. "Plead guilty... you dont want to fight this, although we CAN, and Id love to..."

$$$

Tt

[Patrick Arnold]

Actually the statistics are higher in federal court than 98%, it is actually near 99%. The feds are not like local prosecutors who rely on local cops and have to constantly run for reelection. The feds do not issue an indictment unless they are positive they can win and the agents they rely upon do not screw up the way local cops do. I will take just about any state court case to trial and honestly have a decent chance of beating the offer, if not securing an outright acquittal. You get indicted in federal court prepare to plea bargain, they are very good at that level and rarely make mistakes. Rick Collins is full of it if he claims to take all of his federal cases to trial, that is suicide for a client. Especially considering how the federal sentencing guidelines work that is just a foolish approach. Always rely on local defense counsel and use specialist as consultants, local defense counsel know how judges rule and how individual prosecutors behave, and have relationships with the opposition that is beneficial to a client, and that is invaluable.


where did you hear the dumb statement that collins brings all his cases to trial? the vast majority of his federal cases end in plea agreements. state may be different. although he did bring one federal case to trial involving 1,4-butanediol and actually won.

Rick was my attorney in the balco case. He insisted that i also hire local counsel in the SF area which i did and it made a big big difference.

If your cases involve steroids you should hire rick as well as an attorney in the jurisdiction where you were indicted

[Patrick Arnold]

I agree totally. If I didnt plead guilty to my charges, Id have gotten at least 120 months... and my lawyer even told me that outright. "Plead guilty... you dont want to fight this, although we CAN, and Id love to..."

$$$

Tt

i heard dozens of stroies in prison from guys who decided to fight the feds instead of accepting a deal, and they all ended up getting alot more time

[leonidas300]

where did you hear the dumb statement that collins brings all his cases to trial? the vast majority of his federal cases end in plea agreements. state may be different. although he did bring one federal case to trial involving 1,4-butanediol and actually won.

Rick was my attorney in the balco case. He insisted that i also hire local counsel in the SF area which i did and it made a big big difference.

If your cases involve steroids you should hire rick as well as an attorney in the jurisdiction where you were indicted

I think it was stated earlier in this thread I will try to go back and find it, that is why I was so shocked it just seemed insane to me. Hiring Rick as an expert along with local counsel seems to be the best strategy around and I can find no fault in that. I apologize, I went back through the thread and I think at some point the idea that Rick won't cooperate with the feds ended up being conflated that Rick does not accept offers from the feds.

[the_real_train]

well, you can

plead guilty
plead innocent - go to trial
make a deal, plead guilty, escape trial

if he doesnt let his clients cooperate, there are no deals, and so everyone is either just pleading out or going to trial.

and ive heard of offers from the feds where they just want the guilty plea, but you know why they want it in cases of conspiracies... its as good as cooperating.

i just think the whole collins thing is bull****, the whole bruce didnt make a deal thing is bull****, and people in this community have a seriously false sense of insulation that more conventional drug dealers know is fantasy. steroids are not 'kiddie dope' any more. there is big money involved, and I was making as much as some pretty hardcore coke and heroin dealers that I met inside. a lot more, in some cases.

times are changing, but the problem is that most people dont realize that until some manifestation thereof makes the paper. collins has made a fortune out of a niche need. he has done the same thing that a lot of people have done; he has chosen to study study study and specialize in something that just enough people are interested in to make it highly profitable if you package it neatly for them and get a glossy website.

there are porn sites catering to those with midget fetishes, scat fetishes, and granny fetishes. they are making BANK. because they are good? (are you into this perverted ****?)

no... because they are catering to a specific population. they are spoonfeeding something hard to come by (and apparently there are a lot of mouths out there hungry for pictures of women pooping on dudes' chests)

and this attracts competitors. its common business sense. bruce did the same thing; he catered to a select group. so did you, pat. and what happened? you were sucessful, people knew it, and your niche became spotlighted. just so happens that your niches were illicit in some way, and so you got hit. just like me. i got greedy and took a good thing (or what appeared to be a good thing) and brought it to a level where it could not be ignored.

this whole industry is retarted. look at the signature pharmacy bust. an associated HRT clinic was selling clen for awhile. why? because "its not illegal to sell it for research purposes"

dont be this dumb.

if you get in trouble for anabolics, use a local attorney. if need be (and need will RARELY be), consult a specialist. I got a fed attorney for $2k, start to finish, because all I needed him to do was go to court with me and make sure I didnt get bent over. I got bent over in the end, but that's okay. Most people got what they had coming to them (myself included) and everyone that was named and walked away did so because they ratted.

like sir says, the feds convict over 99 percent of the time... and they visited bruce. didnt charge him as far as i know, but they went and said hello, looked around, cuffed him, and did what... leave?

do they send christmas cards now? It was nice to meet you. Youre a legend. I remember when you were GAC and wrote for the magazines. The kids love you. Can I get you to autograph this Red Star label for me?

Gimme a break. Typhoid Mary is loose, everyone. Dont let her kiss you, no matter how pretty she is.

I have no problem with Bruce nor do I want to cause him more problems. I simply do not want stupid people to suffer because they are stupid. Some people are born stupid, and they need to be protected. I am like a savior for the mentally impaired. Be safe, please.

Thank you, and I really hope Bruce does not go down any of the multitude of bad roads in front of him. Bro, if you want to talk about how to survive in prison, hit me up. Maybe the best road you can take for you and your family does not involve prison. I hope you have the choice. Its a curse and a blessing. Youre in a tough spot, no matter how you look at it, and you have my best regards as well as my sympathies.

Tt from back in the day. Clean now, you cant seize this.

[Patrick Arnold]

well, you can

plead guilty
plead innocent - go to trial
make a deal, plead guilty, escape trial

if he doesnt let his clients cooperate, there are no deals, and so everyone is either just pleading out or going to trial.

and ive heard of offers from the feds where they just want the guilty plea, but you know why they want it in cases of conspiracies... its as good as cooperating.

i just think the whole collins thing is bull****, the whole bruce didnt make a deal thing is bull****, and people in this community have a seriously false sense of insulation that more conventional drug dealers know is fantasy. steroids are not 'kiddie dope' any more. there is big money involved, and I was making as much as some pretty hardcore coke and heroin dealers that I met inside. a lot more, in some cases.

times are changing, but the problem is that most people dont realize that until some manifestation thereof makes the paper. collins has made a fortune out of a niche need. he has done the same thing that a lot of people have done; he has chosen to study study study and specialize in something that just enough people are interested in to make it highly profitable if you package it neatly for them and get a glossy website.


If you got to know Rick and his partners you would change your opinion. Those guys work harder and care more about the bodybuilding industry and their clients than any other attorney could possibly do

[hooker]

If you got to know Rick and his partners you would change your opinion. Those guys work harder and care more about the bodybuilding industry and their clients than any other attorney could possibly do

They must be very good lawyers, because Bruce was facing a very long time (decades) and they got him two years and a day at his sentencing:

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=192620

I'm not versed at all in the workings of the law, but to not cut a deal with the authorities and get 1/10th of the time you were facing is simply amazing to me. Rick must have done a great job...

[eldawg]

Thanks for the news link hooker.

[hooker]

Thanks for the news link hooker.

No worries. I'm never happy to see someone in the industry go to jail, but for that amount of steroid dealing, and an ongoing criminal enterprise, with added gun charges in a school zone, I think he did pretty well.

If he drops us an address I'll write to him. I remember how it was when I did my time....

[the_real_train]

No worries. I'm never happy to see someone in the industry go to jail, but for that amount of steroid dealing, and an ongoing criminal enterprise, with added gun charges in a school zone, I think he did pretty well.

If he drops us an address I'll write to him. I remember how it was when I did my time....

In MA, each gun gets you a year mandatory... so the lawyer must have been a magician. Thats amazing legal maneuvering. I bet Rick Collins helped a lot. I bet Rick went to court and showed them his book, "Legal Muscle" and they just bowed to his superior knowledge of anabolic chemicals and said, "ya know what? two years is enough..."

Bad thing is that he will be in bad places for two years, and I dont know how fast the 8 months will go. Hopefully he gets out in 8. Im 90 percent sure in MA you get get paroled after 1/3 of your time.

Just find the biggest, blackest, meanest mofo you can as soon as you get there and blast him in the mouth without saying a word. Keep hitting him until you crack his head open and then do something crazy like yodel. Just like the movies tell you to. Youll get a REP that way. Youll be crazy white boy from the burbs. Not to be f'd with!

No, dont do that. Im a dick.

Tt

[Seth25]

Just find the biggest, blackest, meanest mofo you can as soon as you get there and blast him in the mouth without saying a word. Keep hitting him until you crack his head open and then do something crazy like yodel. Just like the movies tell you to. Youll get a REP that way. Youll be crazy white boy from the burbs. Not to be f'd with!

No, dont do that. Im a dick.

Tt

LOL what movie was that from?

[the_real_train]

LOL what movie was that from?

I dont know... I just made it up.

But thats what you hear everywhere.

Tt

[DMoore30]

now I know why people hate Ron Kramer.........

[yourname2221]

strong bump

[fitnfirm]

strong bump x 2 :D

[DMoore30]

Bump

[factotum]

When does BK get released?

[Kernkraft]

Good question - either way I'm sure he'll find just as many young female nurses down here at Mass General waiting for him spread eagle as when he left

[ObedEdom]

Good question

x 2

[JV@Gaspari]

This is great! I must have missed this one years back.

[hooker]

now I know why people hate Ron Kramer.........

This is a pretty complete history of Ron Kramer, and his various activities:

http://blog.anthonyrobertsonline.com/2008/08/ron-kramer-of-thermolife/

"In October 1997, Kramer was indicted in San Mateo County of dealing steroids, and got hit with a six month sentence and three-year probation. In 2000, just before his parole was over, he was hit with a parole violation charge. That parole violation charge was dropped and he began working as an informant, helping to bust steroid dealers in San Mateo County.Specifically, Kramer ?agreed to work with NTF in its efforts to infiltrate the local body-building community in regards to the manufacture, sale and/or use of anabolic steroids, growth hormones and other illegal substances,??he spent the next several years setting up his friends in the bodybuilding community."

I have provided court documents and links that support the paragraph above in the full article in my blog.

[JV@Gaspari]

Bodybuilder Key Informant in Steroid Probe
Thu Mar 11, 2004 06:19 PM ET
By Adam Tanner
SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A bodybuilder and former steroid dealer with a criminal record and past financial troubles may have provided the government key clues in the global sports steroid scandal, people close to the case say.
The story of Ron Kramer (now owner of Thermolife), 40, provides insight on a U.S. government probe into the murky world of performance enhancement drugs that has prompted Congressional hearings and concern from President Bush.
According to court papers, Kramer has aided investigators as an informant on steroids in the past. Although he has not been named in the latest steroid indictments, two people close to the case say he helped the government in its probe of BALCO, a San Francisco-area nutritional laboratory that officials say provided steroids to some top athletes.




http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/DivineDizine/rattrap.jpg

[Arlecchino]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=59112231&postcount=1


To say nothing of the usual rules with respect to e-fighting, flaming, etc.

Admin-supported bans are next.

No OT posts about mod/admin decisions, simply please continue while following the rules.

[fitnessman]

Admin-supported bans are next.


Yes they are!

[Bane]

Everyone has skeletons in their closet...those that say they don't aren't being truthful with themselves.



I sell Viagra to old people.

[_J-BONE_]

I sell Viagra to old people.

I steal Viagra from old people...so you best just be directing it my way in the future anyways.

Regardless, I think you've come up with some good stuff recently(assuming the newest creations are your doing)

[Blackjackcat]

Yes they are!


http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=59112231&postcount=1


To say nothing of the usual rules with respect to e-fighting, flaming, etc.

Admin-supported bans are next.

No OT posts about mod/admin decisions, simply please continue while following the rules.

Fun monitors!

[leonidas300]

Thermolife handled the Turk issue about as poorly as they possibly could have and their conduct was pretty reprehensible and of questionable legality. It is understandable why people at Gaspari would have been justifiably furious with Ron over the issue.

Gaspari's response however has been anything, and everything, but professional. 1st Gaspari was not entirely innocent, the product was profoundly under dosed, and the Turk content was just pixie dust allowing for them to put it on the label to add to the products appeal. I was surprised Gaspari would stoop to this window dressing of their products. Next, some of their reps are engaging in the same childish, bullying behavior that they are accusing Thermolife of. Glass houses anyone. Certain reps they have, just want to keep starting trouble with Themrolife, and others have never been above resorting to personal attacks that often teeter on the line of being defamatory. This conduct is honestly just pathetic for grown adults, and makes the entire industry look juvenile. Having Thermolife banned from the O is just going to increase the amount of bad blood between the companies. It is a clear abuse of Gaspari's power to go ostracize Thermolife from the O and was designed to do nothing but hurt Thermolife's pocketbook. If Ron is the problem, ban Ron. Very simple.

It is sad because I truly like Gaspari's product line, and Thermolife appears to be releasing some innovative and effective products, and honestly, this industry needs all the positive press it can get at this point. The FDA has this industry in its crosshairs, and the sniping going on between these two companies is only strengthening the hand of the people that would love to regulate this industry out of existence. I know Gaspari thinks they are going to benefit from the increased regulation, and in the short term, they probably will. However, when all that is left is multi-vitamins and protein powder, I think turning a profit is going to be a bit more difficult.

[fitnessman]

Thermolife handled the Turk issue about as poorly as they possibly could have and their conduct was pretty reprehensible and of questionable legality. It is understandable why people at Gaspari would have been justifiably furious with Ron over the issue.

Gaspari's response however has been anything, and everything, but professional. 1st Gaspari was not entirely innocent, the product was profoundly under dosed, and the Turk content was just pixie dust allowing for them to put it on the label to add to the products appeal. I was surprised Gaspari would stoop to this window dressing of their products. Next, some of their reps are engaging in the same childish, bullying behavior that they are accusing Thermolife of. Glass houses anyone. Certain reps they have, just want to keep starting trouble with Themrolife, and others have never been above resorting to personal attacks that often teeter on the line of being defamatory. This conduct is honestly just pathetic for grown adults, and makes the entire industry look juvenile. Having Thermolife banned from the O is just going to increase the amount of bad blood between the companies. It is a clear abuse of Gaspari's power to go ostracize Thermolife from the O and was designed to do nothing but hurt Thermolife's pocketbook. If Ron is the problem, ban Ron. Very simple.

It is sad because I truly like Gaspari's product line, and Thermolife appears to be releasing some innovative and effective products, and honestly, this industry needs all the positive press it can get at this point. The FDA has this industry in its crosshairs, and the sniping going on between these two companies is only strengthening the hand of the people that would love to regulate this industry out of existence. I know Gaspari thinks they are going to benefit from the increased regulation, and in the short term, they probably will. However, when all that is left is multi-vitamins and protein powder, I think turning a profit is going to be a bit more difficult.


DID YOU READ THE COMAPNY REP RULES??????


Infraction issued.

This ends now everyone.

[leonidas300]

DID YOU READ THE COMAPNY REP RULES??????


Infraction issued.

This ends now everyone.

I am not quite sure how this is bashing a company or against the rules. This is a recitation of facts of which both companies have engaged in. It is bad for the industry as a whole and they both need to cut the crap. Funny that I get an infraction for pointing out despicable conduct yet the people actually engaging in the conduct are still running their mouths. The irony is too much.

[Arlecchino]

I am not quite sure how this is bashing a company or against the rules. This is a recitation of facts of which both companies have engaged in. It is bad for the industry as a whole and they both need to cut the crap. Funny that I get an infraction for pointing out despicable conduct yet the people actually engaging in the conduct are still running their mouths. The irony is too much.

Then try using the report function instead of engaging in the same practice as well as making OT posts about admin decisions.

[Arlecchino]

Then try using the report function instead of engaging in the same practice as well as making OT posts about admin decisions.

If someone has a problem with particular posts that have been made, instead of just complaining via the report system, report the posts that you feel are a problem.

[joakman]

No need to delete my posts, I have nothing at stake at either company so why should I be censored?

[Arlecchino]

No need to delete my posts, I have nothing at stake at either company so why should I be censored?

OT posts about mod/admin decisions. If you have a complaint about one, PM the mod or admin in question.

[Arlecchino]

Closing this thread before we wind up banning a dozen people who seem to think they can continue to ignore the clearly post rules as well as moderator and admin warnings.

If anyone has a problem, follow the rules: PM a mod.