Glutamine and Bulking

[Dann]

Now many people say that L-Glutamine has no place in bulking, but I beg to differ. It has many benefits, in this article I will name them. L-Glutamine, also just called, glutamine, is the most abundant free form amino acid in your body. L-Glutamine levels can become depleted with hard training, thus there is need for additional supplementation. Glutamine can be made by our bodies with other amino acids, but under times of stress (e.g. weight training) our body can have up to 50% of the glutamine stores empty. This will cause you to be in a catabolic state, this is why supplementing with L-Glutamine can be beneficial.

For starters glutamine helps your body recover from intense workouts, I know from experience that it shaves off days of soreness after workouts. And glutimane also is very anti-catabolic; another use is taking your glutamine with a casein protein shake before bed, this will make sure you don’t slip into a catabolic state since you wont be eating in your 8-10 hours of sleep. Another effect glutamine has on muscle building is it also has a cell-volumization effect, this brings water into your muscles, and the more water you have in your muscles, the higher your protein synthesis is, the faster you can build muscle. Glutamine is also used extensively by your immune system, thus if you have depleted levels of glutamine, you are more susceptible to diseases, leaving you unable to train. Another big part of glutamine is that is can raise your HGH levels up by as much as 400% with as little as 2 grams! There are many effects of HGH that contribute positively toward muscle building, not to mention that HGH is also anti-catabolic and will prevent muscle breakdown while you sleep.

By now you’re probably saying “I want to use glutamine during bulking and gain more muscle, but what are the doses and when should I take them?” good question, in bulking you should take 5-10 grams of glutamine a day, mostly post work-out and before bed. But do not take glutamine within 20 minutes of taking creatine, as they will interfere with each other’s absorption in the small intestine.


Sources

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/glutamine.html
http://www.wannabebig.com/printarticle.php?articleid=5
And with my own knowledge & experience

Dann

[D&G]

I know from experience that it shaves off days of soreness after workouts.


Very true, if you read zeppelin's post workout nutrition article on Big Mf'er he recommends this, I always do it anyway, it makes a big difference to soreness levels.

And glutimane also is very anti-catabolic; another use is taking your glutamine with a casein protein shake before bed

I disagree, casein itself is anti-catabolic and is high in glutamic acid, I don't believe adding glutamine will do anything, I have also read that l-glutamine uptake is hampered by other amino acids being present.

if you have depleted levels of glutamine, you are more susceptible to diseases

A bulikng bodybuilder does not have depleted levels of glutamine at any time other than post-workout because the body is producing as much as it needs.

Another big part of glutamine is that is can raise your HGH levels up by as much as 400% with as little as 2 grams!

The 400% gain lasts for such a short amount of time it will have no bearing on muscle growth. Even if you raised GH levels a million percent if it only lasts 5 minutes its not going to make any difference to the slow process of muscle building.

- - -

Many protein drinks are fortified with glutamine anyway so as long as you get a good post-workout shake then follow it up with a meal there should be no problem with glutamine levels.

All research done on glutamine refers to ill patients whose bodies were under severe stress such as major burns and AIDS - a condition called 'leaky gut' arises and glutamine is important. There is no research theoretical or otherwise that indicated a bulking bb'er will benefit from using glutamine. I definitely recommend based on my own experiences adding some glutamine to the post workout shake to combat soreness but apart from that I see nothing to indicate more than that will be of benefit.

[Dann]

Originally posted by D&G
casein itself is anti-catabolic and is high in glutamic acid, I don't believe adding glutamine will do anything

i dont belive that glutimac acid and glutimane are the same thing but i could be wrong


Dann

[sanfran_gymrat]

great thread......very educational.....thank u

[Travis Stenersn]

Can you explain or possibly show me an explanation of how glutamine and creatine compete for absorption?

[Dann]

Originally posted by Travis Stenersn
Can you explain or possibly show me an explanation of how glutamine and creatine compete for absorption?


i havent resad it in a while , i think i might have read it in flex, but if i find anythign again ill let ya know,


Dann

[Gene]

Originally posted by Travis Stenersn
Can you explain or possibly show me an explanation of how glutamine and creatine compete for absorption?

To first comment on an earlier post, glutamic acid and glutamine are not the same thing. Glutamic acid is a precursor to GABA (which explains why some people complain of waking up in the middle of the night struggling to fall back asleep). Glutamine is a derivative of glutamic acid that is synthesized from three amino acids (I believe arginine, proline, and another one). When glutamic acid combines with ammonia, a waste product of metabolic activity, it is converted into glutamine. Glutamine, unlike glutamic acid, can cross the blood-brain-barrier however, so glutamine is better in supplement form.

Next, although some people say that creatine and glutamine compete for similar transport receptors, there has been research done to show that they indeed utilize different, specific receptors, both working against the concentration gradients via the sodium-potassium pump. Most physiologists and biochemists will agree that it is perfectly fine to take them together without having any transporter problems, but it really isn't too hard to take them an hour apart either just takes a little planning.

My two cents, feel free to critique wherever I may be inconsistent.

[Gethuge]

Doesn't a very large percentage of orally administered glutamine get absorbed and used by the intestinal cells before it even reaches the circulatory system. All of the studies that I have read on Glutamine have used an intravenous solution to avoid this problem. Perhaps this it only to assure that the blood concentration is consistant, thus reducing error in the research?

[Travis Stenersn]

Thanks, Gene. That was what I was almost positive was going on. I just wanted to see the opposing argument. Thanks, bud.

[EricS]

Originally posted by Travis Stenersn
Can you explain or possibly show me an explanation of how glutamine and creatine compete for absorption?


Actually, that reasearch is rather old. Recently its has been shown that glutamine has its own exclusive transporter into a muscle cell. And the more that you use it the more of the tranporters are created.

Glutamine has priority over all other amino acieds, your body obviously places a high demand on it. So worrying about in competing for absorbtion is futile.

It was beleived previously that they did compete be cause they are both activly trasproted via tha na/k pump but the proteins that actually allow trasportation are completely different.

There is no need to worry about absrobtion problems.

[EricS]

Originally posted by Gethuge
Doesn't a very large percentage of orally administered glutamine get absorbed and used by the intestinal cells before it even reaches the circulatory system. All of the studies that I have read on Glutamine have used an intravenous solution to avoid this problem. Perhaps this it only to assure that the blood concentration is consistant, thus reducing error in the research?

Yes, most oral supplementation goes un-used by muscle tissue, but beleive it or not, this is good. The average sedentary person oxidizes on average 185g or glutamine - most of it is used by the liver and intestinal lining. Glutamine is also very glucogenic and can be used for energy and glycogen re-synthesis when on low carb diets.

But when you supplemet with large amounts of L-glutamin is will allow the intracellular stores of glutamine to go un-touched, and that is the critical factor in muscle metabolism and growth.

This is why it is reffered to as an indirect anabolic suplement. It initself may not do a whole lot for muscles, but when it comes full circle it does....Get it?

[EricS]

Originally posted by D&G
I know from experience that it shaves off days of soreness after workouts.


Very true, if you read zeppelin's post workout nutrition article on Big Mf'er he recommends this, I always do it anyway, it makes a big difference to soreness levels.

And glutimane also is very anti-catabolic; another use is taking your glutamine with a casein protein shake before bed

I disagree, casein itself is anti-catabolic and is high in glutamic acid, I don't believe adding glutamine will do anything, I have also read that l-glutamine uptake is hampered by other amino acids being present.

if you have depleted levels of glutamine, you are more susceptible to diseases

A bulikng bodybuilder does not have depleted levels of glutamine at any time other than post-workout because the body is producing as much as it needs.

Another big part of glutamine is that is can raise your HGH levels up by as much as 400% with as little as 2 grams!

The 400% gain lasts for such a short amount of time it will have no bearing on muscle growth. Even if you raised GH levels a million percent if it only lasts 5 minutes its not going to make any difference to the slow process of muscle building.

- - -

Many protein drinks are fortified with glutamine anyway so as long as you get a good post-workout shake then follow it up with a meal there should be no problem with glutamine levels.

All research done on glutamine refers to ill patients whose bodies were under severe stress such as major burns and AIDS - a condition called 'leaky gut' arises and glutamine is important. There is no research theoretical or otherwise that indicated a bulking bb'er will benefit from using glutamine. I definitely recommend based on my own experiences adding some glutamine to the post workout shake to combat soreness but apart from that I see nothing to indicate more than that will be of benefit.






Actually, the research shows that Growth hormone secretion lasts between 60-90 min. And only a small amount of it is used directy be muscle for growth, the majority of it is converted to IGF-I by the liver, so taking 2g every 3-4 hours is a wise choice in my opinion.

Growth hormone's life span is very short in general so its kinda foolish to brush off suplementation becuase you think it doesnt last long.

And its a good idea to look at research done on AIDs patients, because the number one problem with them is a comprimised immune sys and muscle wasting. Thats very compareable to athletes/bbers in hard training.

But thats my 2 cents.

[EricS]

Originally posted by Dann


i dont belive that glutimac acid and glutimane are the same thing but i could be wrong


Dann

yes they are very different. Glutamic acid is simply glutamate in solution. In physiological processes, glutamate and glutamic acid are interchangeable. Glutamate is the precurser to glutamine. The difference is glutamate(glutamic acid) is shuttled into mitocondria for oxidation and glutamine is shuttle to cells for anabolism.

Glutamine is the only one that triggers anabolism. The only problem is that glutamine can be coverted back to glutamate and oxidized by the immune system and other organs. This is what makes supplemetation so important. Despite what that guy says, I think any bodybuilder should consider Glutamine a #2 supplement(next to protein).

[Valcore]

nah, creatine and glutamine will work synergistically to create an even greater anabolic effect. Whey isolate, creatine,glutamine and glucose is a potent combo.

That's old research that says they compete for absorption. You're missing out if you take them separatley.

[ex_banana-eater]

Originally posted by a man in a dress
A bulikng bodybuilder does not have depleted levels of glutamine at any time other than post-workout because the body is producing as much as it needs.


thats debatable. the whole reason we take glutamine is because our bodies do not produce enough for our athletic needs.

[D&G]

How do you know that - what evidence do you have to back that up?

[EricS]

Originally posted by D&G
How do you know that - what evidence do you have to back that up?

Wagenmakers AJ. Muscle Amino Acid Metabolism at rest and during exercise: Role in human physiology and metabolism. Exercise & sport Science Rev. 1998;26:287-314

Walsh NP, Biannin AK, et al. Glutamine, exercise and immun function. Sports Med. 26(3); 177-191, 1998

Rowbottom, Keast D and Morton A. The emergine role of glutamine as an indicator of exercise stress and overtraining. Sports Med. 21(2). 80-97

Kinscherft R., et al. Low plasma glutamine in combination with high glutamate levels indicate risk for loss of body cell mass in healthy individuals:the effects of N-acetyl-cysteine. J.Mol. Med. vol 74:393-400 1996.

Antonio J, Street C. Glutamine: a potentially usefull supplement for athletes. Can. J. Appl. Physiol;24(1) 1-14,1999.

[D&G]

Thank You I will check those out when I have a moment

[EricS]

Originally posted by D&G
Thank You I will check those out when I have a moment

Have fun :) Reading those full text articles and trying to interpret all of that technical jargon is a mind numbing expereince...but I'm getting better at it.

[D&G]

From what I have found I cannot see anything where a bodybuilders diet (i.e high protein & carbs) has been taken into consideration.

The question still remains whether glutamine on a 'bulking' diet is of any use.


You may wish to read the this -

Assessment of the safety of glutamine and other amino acids
Author/s: PJ Garlick Volume: 131 Issue: 9 Page: 2556S-61S Year: 2001
Source: JOURNAL OF NUTRITION

[EricS]

Originally posted by D&G
From what I have found I cannot see anything where a bodybuilders diet (i.e high protein & carbs) has been taken into consideration.

The question still remains whether glutamine on a 'bulking' diet is of any use.


You may wish to read the this -

Assessment of the safety of glutamine and other amino acids
Author/s: PJ Garlick Volume: 131 Issue: 9 Page: 2556S-61S Year: 2001
Source: JOURNAL OF NUTRITION


Your looking for the wrong things. studies demestrate greatly enhanced immune systems. And play a vital role in keeping the intestinal track healthy for better absorbtion. No matter how much protein you shovel down, if you can' absorb it effeciently, its no good.

It also leaves intra-muscluar sotres of glutamine un-touched. That allows the muscle building process to go uninterupted. It also regenerates the liver, and maintains high levels of Glutathione. The immune system is constantly drawing on muscle stores for its glutamine. Supplemetning with glutamin is like feeding a hungry dog, you know hes not going to steal your pizza if you keep giving him bones.

Yeah your body can manufacture glutamine from other amino acids, but those aminos are primarily leucine, valine and isoleucine - The BCAAs which are vital to muscle growth. Glutamine supplemetnation spares those to do the things we want, primarily build muscle.

And if you'll notice in the study from the J.Mol.Med in the last post, the subjects were eating a typical diet and only worked out 1 hour, 3x week and lost muscle because of low glutamine levels.

Glutamines effects on muscle growth are inderect, but very effective.

I don't see how a "bulking diet" is going to play apart, because a "cutting" diet is still high in protein compared to an average individual. So a BBer drops protein intake from 350g to 250g, is that going to make a big difference? I doubt it.

Plus supplementation of up to 40g/day has been show to be non-toxic. The research on glutamine is rather solid wheather it be in a clinically ill(comparable to a post-work out state) or in healthy people on good diet.

Its the most abundant amino acid for a reason.

VanAcker BA,,.et al. Glutamine: The pivot of our nitrogen economy? JPEN.23(suppl):S45-8, 1999

Aosasa S., et al A clinical study of the effectivness of oral glutamine supplementation during total parenteral nutrition: influence on mesentaric mononuclear cells. JPEN;23(5suppl):s41-4, 1999

Ito A, Higashiguchi. Effects of glutamine administration on liver regeneration following hepatectomy. Nutri. 15(10:23-8, 1999.

Saito H, Furukawa S, Matsuda T. Glutamine as an immunoenhancing nutreint. JPEN;23(5suppl):S59-61, 1999.

Kew S., et al. Dietary glutamine enhances murine T-lymphocyte responsivness. J. Nutr.129(8): 1524-1531, 1999

Rennie MJ et al. Glutamine metabolism and transport in skeltal muscle and heart and their clinical relevance. J. Nutr. 126: p1142S-1149S, 1996

[D&G]

I will continue to check thru stuff but I have also read info (admittedly not a study) that on the average persons diet the gut produces plenty of glutamine to meet its needs - clearly an assumption can be made that taking into account a bodybuildiers diet high in carbs/protein that glutamine production should be sufficient at any time.
Glutamine has been shown to be effective in those with weakened immune systems suffering from 'leaky gut syndrome' - but for the healthy person and more importantly the bodybuilder who has plenty of macro and micro nutrients in their diet is there any time other than post-workout when absoption of nutrients and immune system is truely compromised.

[EricS]

Its not so much that you shovel down glutamine ONLY when your immune system may be comprimised, Virtually every system in the body uses up glutamine like it was goin out of style.

The idea of glutamin supplementation is to make sure that your body doesn't tap into muscle stores for that glutamin.

The gut doesn't produce it, it uses it. Aout 40% of a daily total. Even the sedentary person oxidizes close to200g worth of glutamine. I think glutamin should be a high priority of a muscle building phase. You just need to understand how its utilized to see that it has a multi-fasceted role concerning muscle growth other than just "getting into muscles"

If you wait for your immue system to fail before you realize something is wrong, its already too late.

[SnakeHips]

IT'S funny how Dann posted this but in reality he didn't know **** about what he was writing...uhhh read it in flex or something. Glad you guys could take charge and back it up with knowledge and science...

[ShallowGrave]

I don't understand the argument about whether or not glutamine is worthwhile in a bulking phase. In the cutting phase one of the best benefits of glutamine is that it helps keep the body from moving into a catabolic state when you are eating less calories in an attempt to cut up. Now for someone like myself (an ectomorph who burns so many calories just chewing gum that I need a carb/protein shake afterwards), wouldn't glutamine be beneficial during a bulking phase? One of my biggest obstacles is the ease in which my system starts to the catabolic. And, won't glutamine sups ensure that my small intestine is firing on all cylinders and is able to absorb all the protein and nutrients I'm force feeding through it? How could glutamine not be benefical to me?

These aren't statements or criticisms, just questions

[Ahnold]

Originally posted by ShallowGrave
I don't understand the argument about whether or not glutamine is worthwhile in a bulking phase. In the cutting phase one of the best benefits of glutamine is that it helps keep the body from moving into a catabolic state when you are eating less calories in an attempt to cut up. Now for someone like myself (an ectomorph who burns so many calories just chewing gum that I need a carb/protein shake afterwards), wouldn't glutamine be beneficial during a bulking phase? One of my biggest obstacles is the ease in which my system starts to the catabolic. And, won't glutamine sups ensure that my small intestine is firing on all cylinders and is able to absorb all the protein and nutrients I'm force feeding through it? How could glutamine not be benefical to me?

These aren't statements or criticisms, just questions

yes , it sounds to me that taking glutamine while bulking for you would be a very good idea, espicailly at ngiht when ur most at risk from not eating

[EricS]

Originally posted by Ahnold


yes , it sounds to me that taking glutamine while bulking for you would be a very good idea, espicailly at ngiht when ur most at risk from not eating

I make it a point to eat at night :)

[str8flexed]

Damn even before I saw scientific evidence that creatine and glutamine did not compete for absorbtion i knew that theory was bull****. Thanx for showing some studies eric!
Peace

[EricS]

Originally posted by str8flexed
Damn even before I saw scientific evidence that creatine and glutamine did not compete for absorbtion i knew that theory was bull****. Thanx for showing some studies eric!
Peace

no prob :) Hey i saw you're new pics, Looking big man! You're on tract to take the whole damn show. GOOD LUCK!

[str8flexed]

hey thanx bro, appreciate it.
Peace

[kas]

It is good to see that you guys are knowledgable and are able to find the journals for reference. I know how it is when you need to find a reference to something you read maybe 4 or 5 years ago; I commend you guys for being on top of things. It seems sometimes some people really do not know what they are talking about, but not in this thread.

[maki]

Eric S said,
By large amounts, I was thinking more around 30-40. 70 is alot. Not that I think your body wouldn't be able to handle it, but i don't think your wallet could!
well free form glutamine and whole protein glutamine seem to be used differently. How? I'm not really sure, but The resarch on it is all done on L-glutamine.

*** From what I've read there isn't a difference. When it reaches the gut the enzymes attack it the same. Or so I've read at Bryan Hacocks site.

There is something special about it And I'm not exactly sure. Whey protein does have alot of glutamine for a protein, but it isn't very much in the end. a serving may have 1-2g if you are lucky where as a serving of glutamine has 5g right off the bat.

*** Yes but if your eating enough protein , upwards of 200 grams which most bodybuilders do and your eating food then you should have enough, not to mention the amount the body produces.

glutamine in foods is in the gorm of glutamic acid or glutamate. They aren't the same thing, but they are easily interchangable into glutamine. Keeping intramuscular stores of glutamine is critical, yes. When we supplement with glutamine it isn't ever channeled one way or the other. Some is drawn into muscle cells, some is utilized by the mucose lining of the small intestine, some is oxidized and converted to glucose, some is used as fuel for the immune system, acid/base buffer in the kidneys, and various organs utilize it as well. Thats alot of things for 1 amino acid and This is the reason why, as you say, it is a MUST for bodybuilders.
I've been up and down the road as to wheather it is "worthy" or not, but the data is rather clear. For an athlete in hard training, its hard to get enough. regardless of the amount of protein in your diet, there is always a demand for glutamine, and if that demand isn't met, then yeah, then muscle stores are tapped. And that is when muscle breakdown occurs. So L-glutamine is not only anti-catabolic, but an indirect anabolic.

*** If anything then, I would say that post or pre workout glutamine is a good thing, or when you wake up and when you go to bed.
Do you know how long glutamine takes to be absorbed so it goes to the muscle tissue. Is there even any studies that show how long it takes to change the source of glutamine in foods into a useable source in the body?
Because that would be an indicator of when glutamine is really nessecary.

Which aspect of glutamine were you looking for documentation on? I'll see what I can find for you.

*** Well, I would be interested in seeing the absorption rate time but I doubt it's out there on the net. Maybe some others depending on what directionour conversation takes.
Talk to you soon.
Maki R

[EricS]

Actually all of those questios are answered in the studies I posted earlier.

[Crazee_786]

ok well i have decided to take glutamine 5 grams post workout on workout days and 5 grams everyday (so 10grams on workout days, 5grams on normal days.)

but can someone tell me how the hell glutamine raises GH levels???!!! what is the mechanism>>>??? seems very strange for it to be able to do this.

[EricS]

Originally posted by Crazee_786
ok well i have decided to take glutamine 5 grams post workout on workout days and 5 grams everyday (so 10grams on workout days, 5grams on normal days.)

but can someone tell me how the hell glutamine raises GH levels???!!! what is the mechanism>>>??? seems very strange for it to be able to do this.

it is one of the few amino acids that can cross the blood brain barrier and its highest concentration is in the pituitary gland.

the exact mechanisms are not know, however i think the most feasible hypothesis is that becuase GH is a stress hormone and released in times of stress. Pain for example is a trigger for GH, so this is one reason why intense training stimulates its realease.

And as we have been throwing around, when muscle tissue is catabolized(broken down) alot of glutamine is released from the dying cells. This COULD be a sign of severe stress and trauma and would then stimulate the release of GH.

whether or not that is accurate or right...who knows. thats just one theory, I'm sure there are others.

[venus892]

i belive it because......
For starters glutamine helps your body recover from intense workouts, I know from experience that it shaves off days of soreness after workouts. And glutimane also is very anti-catabolic; another use is taking your glutamine with a casein protein shake before bed, this will make sure you don’t slip into a catabolic state since you wont be eating in your 8-10 hours of sleep. Another effect glutamine has on muscle building is it also has a cell-volumization effect, this brings water into your muscles, and the more water you have in your muscles