creatine, carnitine, and a neuromuscular disorder....

[MonaT]

Hi all,

I'm new to this site, and not a body builder, but I have a dog......

(How's that for a strange intro that seems like it will be very off-topic?)

Here's the deal. My dog has a neuromuscular disease. One of the best people I had to get advice from at the health food store was a body-builder, but he doesn't work there any more. I'm hoping to ask all of you a couple of questions...

My dog Indy has an unnamed disorder, caused by her lyme vaccine, and it causes continued cramping in her muscles, pain, and muscle atrophy. Her condition is similar to an autoimmune disorder, though not quite, but I have to be careful to keep the immune system modulated, not boosted. I will spare you all the details....

She used to do very well on plain old whey protein, but it has caused her digestive upset recently and I'll have to stop it. The whey seemed to keep her muscles toned, though it may have aggravated the autoimmune component, I was never quite sure. I guess this is question number one....1) can whey protein (basic whey, from optimum nutrition, ON) stimulate/boost the immune system?

I've been looking at trying some creatine for her.....I tried a little bit, and it seemed to reduce that pain that she carries in her muscles...at least she seemed to want to run more. This leads to my next question....2) can creatine really lessen this type of pain? some reports say it may induce cramping, and I want to do the opposite....

On her bloodwork, kidneys always look fine, but they are often one of the things susceptible to her disease process, so I want to be cautious. The values that are abnormal in her bloodwork have an underlying theme of dehydration, regardless of how much liquid I add to her food. I read in one of the posts in this forum that creatine will pull water into the cells....so 3) does it sound like creatine would help her hurt with her history? Do I want water pulled in, or will this add to her abnormalities?

And I guess my final question, 4) would something like carnitine, or some other supplement that you all know about sound promising for her?

I would appreciate any insight that any of you might have.

~~~~
Lisa

[Veeshmack]

maybe you should ask the vet?

[MonaT]

The vets are out of their league with this one -- I have a couple that I do consult with.

[Selode5]

creatine would hurt its kidneys

this is why people must drink a gallon of water, to clean out the kidney (i think)

[v4lu3s]

creatine would hurt its kidneys

this is why people must drink a gallon of water, to clean out the kidney (i think)

you drink water to avoid being dehydrated, and chronic dehydration can lead to kidney stones (i had one 2.5 years ago for that very reason). the creatine tends to draw water into the muscles.

To the original poster:
have you tried other blends or varieties of protein? it may be that an additive in the protein blend you are using is not working well, or possibly something like casein may help.
I personally would avoid creatine though, it does draw water into the muscle, while the creatine provides energy for the muscle. If the creatine is not used it will be flushed out in the urine as creatinine, which in a blood test could lead to a false positive for kidney failure. It has happened with human doctors where they do urine testing and tell a guy that he has kidney failure, and he says he is taking creatine and the docotor says creatine caused the kidney failure and is freaking out. the patient stops taking creatine and the next test comes out fine, and the doctor then says "i told you that creatine was causing kidney failure."
Some people also do suffer from "pumps", kind of a cramping type feeling from blood filling exercised muscles. The dog may or may not go through that as it tends to come from heavy exertion, but honestly I would be afraid of causing more harm in the situation you are in. Specially sicne teh dog cannot tell you that its lower back is pumped and hurting.

As far as whey and immune system function...maybe look for reaserch through scholar.google.com or pubmed.gov, or someone else may throw up some good links.

lastly, afaik carnitine basically assists in delivery of fat to the mitochondria of cells allowing fat to be more easily used as fuel. I do not know if this will help or not, or if there are other functions of carnitine, that is jsut what i am familiar with.

best of luck.

[Selode5]

you drink water to avoid being dehydrated, and chronic dehydration can lead to kidney stones (i had one 2.5 years ago for that very reason). the creatine tends to draw water into the muscles.

To the original poster:
have you tried other blends or varieties of protein? it may be that an additive in the protein blend you are using is not working well, or possibly something like casein may help.
I personally would avoid creatine though, it does draw water into the muscle, while the creatine provides energy for the muscle. If the creatine is not used it will be flushed out in the urine as creatinine, which in a blood test could lead to a false positive for kidney failure. It has happened with human doctors where they do urine testing and tell a guy that he has kidney failure, and he says he is taking creatine and the docotor says creatine caused the kidney failure and is freaking out. the patient stops taking creatine and the next test comes out fine, and the doctor then says "i told you that creatine was causing kidney failure."
Some people also do suffer from "pumps", kind of a cramping type feeling from blood filling exercised muscles. The dog may or may not go through that as it tends to come from heavy exertion, but honestly I would be afraid of causing more harm in the situation you are in. Specially sicne teh dog cannot tell you that its lower back is pumped and hurting.

As far as whey and immune system function...maybe look for reaserch through scholar.google.com or pubmed.gov, or someone else may throw up some good links.

lastly, afaik carnitine basically assists in delivery of fat to the mitochondria of cells allowing fat to be more easily used as fuel. I do not know if this will help or not, or if there are other functions of carnitine, that is jsut what i am familiar with.

best of luck.

yes i know. but can u really force a dog to drink a gallon a day?

[Byrne89]

i think it will be easy for a dog to drink a gallon a day.... my dog drinks close to that with very little effort.... what kind of dog is it?

[Dr.Dave1]

I can pass on some thoughts although it is hard to know for sure as an unnamed neuromuscular disorder that's related to an autoimmune disorder is kind of vague. What is the relations to an autoimmune disorder? Is your dog producing autoantibodies that are attacking her muscles/nerves? Is she on immunosuppression?

Without more info I can say the following.
1. I have not heard of whey protein in and of itself boosting the immune system. If your dog was not getting enough protein then adding protein to its diet could boost the immune system but that is b/c in that situation it's correcting a lack of nutrients
2. I have not heard of creatine lessening pain but anything is possible. As was mentioned creatine causes cramps when not enough water is ingested. The decision on creatine kind of depends on your next question.
3. If your dog's kidneys are functioning normally AND she does not have any conditions predisposing her to kidney problems then creatine would be ok (the same statement also goes for increased protein in your dog's diet as a high protein load is bad for poorly functioning kidneys) IF your dog is suffering from an autoimmune dz then she may be prone to experiencing kideny probs and may benefit from staying away from creatine or if you use it then her kidney function should be monitored closely.
4. Carnitine and CoQ10 are often used in people that have metabolic disorders causing muscle damage and pain. It sounds like your dog is suffering from something closer to an autoimmune dz then a metabolic dz from what you said

A side note, you mentioned the whey was causing her stomach upset you may want to consider switching to a protein that is 100% whey protein isolate as that can be easier on the stomach than whey protein concentrate or blends of the two.

[tweaked17]

1) can whey protein (basic whey, from optimum nutrition, ON) stimulate/boost the immune system?

I've been looking at trying some creatine for her.....I tried a little bit, and it seemed to reduce that pain that she carries in her muscles...at least she seemed to want to run more. This leads to my next question....2) can creatine really lessen this type of pain? some reports say it may induce cramping, and I want to do the opposite....



Without more info I can say the following.
1. I have not heard of whey protein in and of itself boosting the immune system. If your dog was not getting enough protein then adding protein to its diet could boost the immune system but that is b/c in that situation it's correcting a lack of nutrients



This study confirms previous reports that dietary WPC can potentiate humoral immunity in mice, and provides the first evidence that WPC can enhance mucosal antibody responses to orally-administered antigens.
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a713667849~db=all


Mixing lactalbumin with either casein or soy protein in a 20 g protein/100 g diet formula significantly enhanced the immune response in comparison to that of mice fed diets containing 20% soy protein or casein.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3168349


Our data indicate that the humoral immune response is highest in mice fed a dietary whey protein concentrate exhibiting the highest solubility (undenatured conformation) and a greater relative concentration of the thermolabile bovine serum albumin and immunoglobulins. In addition, the mice fed this type of whey protein concentrate exhibit higher levels of tissue glutathione.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1782728


The immune system works best if the lymphoid cells have a delicately balanced intermediate level of glutathione. Even moderate changes in the intracellular glutathione level have profound effects on lymphocyte functions. Certain functions, such as the DNA synthetic response, are exquisitely sensitive to reactive oxygen intermediates and, therefore, are favoured by high levels of the antioxidant glutathione....
....
There is no indication that immunological functions such as resistance to infection or the response to vaccination may be enhanced in healthy human subjects by administration of glutathione or its precursor amino acid cysteine. However, immunological functions in diseases that are associated with a cysteine and glutathione deficiency may be significantly enhanced and potentially restored by cysteine supplementation....
...
treatment of HIV-infected patients with N-acetyl-cysteine caused in both cases a significant increase in all immunological functions under test, including an almost complete restoration of natural killer cell activity. It remains to be tested whether cysteine supplementation may be useful also in other diseases and conditions that are associated with a low mean plasma cystine level and impaired immunological functions.
http://docstore.ingenta.com/cgi-bin/ds_deliver/1/u/d/ISIS/37067987.1/cabi/pns/2000/00000059/00000004/art00013/E16A0C84344707A91177256130BCFBA1F7B24E5D6A.html?li nk=http://www.ingentaconnect.com/error/delivery&format=html

it's not the whey protein specifically, it's other milk proteins and the biologically active protein fractions that affect immunity. certainly, if this is an autoimmune disorder, that was a very logical conclusion. i'm not positive, but allergen response to the whey protein concentrate could aggravate the condition.

switching to a highly-filtered and refined whey source may help your dog get the protein she needs without aggravating her condition.

I can't give you advice about the creatine, but how much were you giving her? see if 1-2g/day seems to relieve her and helps her run more. really should be a non-issue with the kidneys, but hydration may be an issue and that could lead to kidney issues... have you been working closely with a vet/doc on this? i would follow professional advice.

[Zacten]

Would you be able to post all the lab values by chance? Especially the abnormal ones (even if they are caused by dehydration) which I'm guessing is probably it's BUN. It still helps, also post if there's any medications the pet is on. Thanks.

[terracotta]

You were giving the dog unflavoured whey right? And especially nothing with cocoa in it.

[tweaked17]

You were giving the dog unflavoured whey right? And especially nothing with cocoa in it.



whey protein (basic whey, from optimum nutrition, ON)

i don't think ON sells unflavored whey, but she seems to know enough not to do that.

[terracotta]

Would hope so..

NOW foods makes an unflavoured whey isolate.. not sure if the dog would eat that though.

[MonaT]

Wow, you guys are great.

Okay, here goes....

Indy is a 33 lb mix (probably terrier/whippet and either dobe or GSD). She was sick with this by the time she was a year old, and she's nearly 10 now. She eats a homecooked diet and has a variety of supplements (including CoQ-10). She's pretty sensitive to everything, so small doses typically work for her.

Pics here if anyone is curious:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/73a61c26.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/4907f6d4.jpg

Blood values that are typically off
BUN used to run a bit high several years ago, but it's normal now.
Lipase runs high, amylase runs low (her diet is grain free)
Chloride runs a tad high, but sodium is in the middle of the range
WBC runs at the low end, all types of white blood cells
RBC are fine
HGB, HCT, and MCHC all run at the high end or just above the normal area -- this might be due to some sitehound in her, or could be her disease process.
ALT flirts at the high end and also tends to elevate.
I think her Albumin was on the low end for awhile.

The vaccine caused what is called an immune complex disease. Her body creates these complexes and they disposit in different areas of her body. When too many accumulate, then the body can't process them and health begins to decline. When the immune system is boosted, it increases the production of these immune complexes. I believe they deposit in her muscles, although there is some liver and pancreas involvement in her history, so who knows the actual process. Typically in immune complex diseases, these are filtered through the kidneys, which is what causes the kidney problems. The symptoms are much like an autoimmune problem, but technically the process is different. She isn't due for her next bloodwork for a couple of months. She is on no conventional meds -- she has always been treated alternatively because there really aren't any good meds for her condition.

I was giving the ON Vanilla Whey. I tried their "natural stuff" and that was a disaster for her -- I think it was the sweetener. I've been trying some of the jarrow unflavored whey, but I'm just not sure. One reason for the whey is that for nearly 10 years now, she has only tolerated one protein -- pork. And I don't think that's healthy....I wanted a protein supplement to round out the full complement of amino acids. I do see a difference in her body tone and health when she's not getting or tolerating the whey.

About the creatine. The capsules that I tried contain 1.2 g per capsule, and i probably sprinkled about 1/5 to 1/4 of a capsule on her food. But she is sensitive, so what might be a small amount to us, can really mess with her if it's the wrong stuff.

I honestly don't know how much of her symptoms are due to the immune complex, or how it might affect her metabolically. She has enough symptoms that have pointed to a metabolic disorder....and things like the B-vitamins, coq10, etc. have helped her. She is also on thyroid replacement. She can't tolerate grains, and has always had a problem digesting fats. She's just been a mess, but I've been able to keep her relatively stable over the past years, with a few spikes here and there.

I don't know if that's too much information, but I certainly am interested in any input you have.

[Dr.Dave1]

The vaccine caused what is called an immune complex disease. Her body creates these complexes and they disposit in different areas of her body. When too many accumulate, then the body can't process them and health begins to decline. When the immune system is boosted, it increases the production of these immune complexes. I believe they deposit in her muscles, although there is some liver and pancreas involvement in her history, so who knows the actual process. Typically in immune complex diseases, these are filtered through the kidneys, which is what causes the kidney problems. The symptoms are much like an autoimmune problem, but technically the process is different. She isn't due for her next bloodwork for a couple of months. She is on no conventional meds -- she has always been treated alternatively because there really aren't any good meds for her condition.



Interesting that sounds like a type III hypersensitivity reaction, an autoimmune problem that can occur after administration of vaccines . . . usually that is only a temporary problem and tends not to have long term sequelae. The treatment is usually short term and only supportive (take care of the symptoms). Do they think she developed a permanent autoimmune disorder?

[GRAYHORSE]

"some reports say it may induce cramping"

This happened to me. I had bad cramps when i started using it. Some say it was cause i was using the cheap crap from walmart.
I now take the Cr2 ethel ester stuff along with some Taurine and the cramps are not so bad anymore.

Anyways, good luck with your dog man...

[MonaT]

Interesting that sounds like a type III hypersensitivity reaction, an autoimmune problem that can occur after administration of vaccines . . . usually that is only a temporary problem and tends not to have long term sequelae. The treatment is usually short term and only supportive (take care of the symptoms). Do they think she developed a permanent autoimmune disorder?

A type III hypersensitiviy is exactly what it is. The serology lab at Cornell, at the time, said this would be a lifetime disorder. We are on year 9, so it looks like they were right :-(

What I have learned is that much of the conventional knowledge about vaccination, at least in the canine and feline world, is really being shaken up. I'm sure similar things are true in the human world of vaccines.

Immune complex diseasees aren't necessarily an autoimmune disorder, though they are often a side effect of an autoimmune disorder since the autoimmune disorder will often have ample antibodies floating around. I'm guessing that the antibodies in Indy's immune complex disorder occur not because of the body attacking itself, but as a respose to the antigens and/or adjuvants introduced by the vaccine.

http://www.immunecentral.com/immune-system/iss20.cfm

http://nic.sav.sk/logos/books/scientific/node42.html

So with Indy, I need to make sure that the liver and kidneys can filter these immune complexes, and I need to keep the process that creates the antibodies subdued, while making sure that she still gets proper nutrition. I have some key supplements that help with flare-ups, but keeping her diet nutritionally balanced when she is so limited is pretty tough.

Any recommdations for a whey protein by chance?

[MonaT]

"some reports say it may induce cramping"

This happened to me. I had bad cramps when i started using it. Some say it was cause i was using the cheap crap from walmart.
I now take the Cr2 ethel ester stuff along with some Taurine and the cramps are not so bad anymore.

Anyways, good luck with your dog man...

Thanks GrayHorse. I'm guessing you were loading quite a bit of the creatine too?

I'm wondering if this is something where a little might go a long way, if I use it all.