cutting

[bb5-0]

Hey Guys, I'd like to know how long your cutting cycle generally lasts, which diet you follow, how many lbs you lost on the last cutting cycle you did and what you do to avoid losing muscle with fat!
I know it's a lot of questions but it could be interesting to see what works best for each of us.


_____________

knowledge is power

[JeffCD]

I'm 40 and also trying to cut. (Staying thin is getting harder and harder as I get older.)

Through a lot of discipline and hard work, I have maintained a relatively low bf (around 12%) Unfortunately, about 8 months ago I tried to gain some bulk and allowed myself to eat whatever I wanted. I did gain muscle but I also gained a fair amount of fat and my BF went up to 18%. Now I'm trying to lose the fat. Because I want to retain the muscle, I have cut way down on my carbs but added a lot of protein so my calories are not as low as they might be. I am trying to be patient. It doesn't help that I've gotten lazier in my old age and I find it hard to motivate myself to do much aerobics (I'd much rather lift than run). I've been making progress though by continuing to lift hard and watching my diet. A couple of weeks ago I started a cycle of One and I am finding it very beneficial. My sixpack is now showing and I am very vascular all over. All I have left are those damm love handles and to be honest I am not sure I will be able to totally get rid of them without lipo or something. I would definitely recommend One unless if your philosophy allows you to take phs.

As for how long to cut, IMO its somewhat a matter of personal priorities. My own view is that I'd rather be cut than huge. (Although I know a lot of the people on this message board would disagree.) Since I do like being cut, I watch my diet year round. It definitely helps to view food as fuel rather than a pleasure.

Good luck

[bb5-0]

Jeff,
I'm already 50!
I agree with you on many points: it's getting harder to stay lean when you get older and you really have to watch your diet carefully and stay away from those carbs.
I've been on a high pro, low carbs , moderate fats diet for several weeks now and got quite cut, just like you I seem to enjoy lifting more than cardio and I think i've reached a point where I must choose my priority: do i want to keep my bf low and get even more defined or do I go for more mass and kiss my sixpacks goodbye for a time? Or is there any way to get both ?
If anyone knows how to do it, just tell me-

I think i read somewhere that fitnessman was able to get more mass while on a keto diet. So if he reads this, I'll be glad to have more details on how he did it. I read the first part of his article on keto with much interest but couldn't find the anwer. Maybe in the second chapter ? ...

[Over46andFit]

I'm 46, soon to be 47. I find that by maintaining a high protein, low carb, low fat diet and cycling the carbs lower for two weeks then back up for four weeks seems to have no effect on mass but a dramatic effect on lowering body fat and increasing vascularity. I also like to increase cardio and I suppliment with MD6 during my "cut" phase. (I've tried Xenadrine and hydroxycut during this cut phase as well, with similar results, although, don't like taking up to 12 capsules of hydroxycut daily ...yuk!!!)

My strength and endurance are the guides as to when to stop the cut cycle. When they begin to wan, I stop the cycle, which is about 2 weeks.

[kendo]

Im 38 getting ready 4 my 3rd show and have had to lose about 35 lbs in 16 weeks. It is very difficult and being natural there is significant muscle loss. I've decided to go off the bulking idea and stay fairly lean with 14-20lbs of contest weight. Ill keep carbs moderate and avoid the junk i was used to. I am cutting better this time though keeping carbs up slightly more to encourage metabolism but a lot more cardio. Seems to be working well.

[wabney]

hey Bro's

I am 42 going on 43 and I am finding it very hard to lose fat.
I started bulking in January and put on 13 lbs. I was eating
very high protein 6 meals a day + shakes. I have now decided to cut for the summer and I am trying everything but i can't seem to lose any weight. I am doing cardio 20 min ED with 3 times a week on the weights. I can't figure it out, I am totally frustrated. I am taking Ripped fuel, multi/vitm,and eating very little carbs. Every time I get on the frekin scale I am the same weight. I have deceided to cut back on the protein shakes a little this week and see if it helps. I guess i am looking for some advise.


peace

[MrLift]

You must create a calorie deficit. Lower your calories and try doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. Keep protein percentage up and carbs low. Every few days have a high carb day to throw your metabolism a curve ball. This works for me.

[wabney]

Hey Bro

So you think I should keep my protein up??? I am just getting frustrated and ready to try almost anything. I mean **** I made some good gains on my bulking cycle and don't want to lose them
but **** this fat is driving me crazy. I also have just ordered 1-test ethergel from molecular nutrition , hopong this will help on keeping the gains....of muscle of course.


peace

[MrLift]

Originally posted by wabney
Hey Bro

So you think I should keep my protein up???


Yes! You want to keep as much muscle as possible. Keeping protein high will help. But you must take in fewer calories to loose the fat. Hope this helps.

[ojs]

Here is the way I see it. First accept, even in a general way, that the only substantial differences between a young guy 30years old and a guy 50years old are attitude and the amount of and the time in transition of certain hormones and that's what effects body composition. Second, that to a certain extent, those hormones can be manipulated via focus and macro-nutrients (food or supplements).

We can get rid of the attitude and focus. Most of you guys understand the attitude and focus thing and can go into the gym and workout as hard as the younger guys and often times even harder. And many of us know a lot of guys in our age group that insist that they couldn't and have a million reasons to substantiate that they can't. We know that mind-set makes a difference.

I believe the hormones we care about are:
1. Cortisol
2. Pregnenolone
3. DHEA
4. Estrogen / Testosterone
5. Insulin
6. HGH

I believe a younger guy produces more HGH so he recovers from abusive training cycles better. He is more sensitive to insulin and so when his insulin spikes his muscle cells absorb more glycogen in the same amount of time than older guys so there is less blood sugar available for fat storage. And the cortisol vs DHEA time in transition is very short so there is more time for the insulin to do its job; while cortisol is present the cells block glycogen absorption.

Now here is where the controversy starts. Everyone is slightly different. But if what you eat, the supplements you take and when you consume these things in any way address the above your going to get results. The better they address them the better the results. Unfortunately we can't ask our bodies to give us regular status reports.

Some dieting systems will work better for some than others. But only if they change to our advantage the way these hormones are effecting our bodies. So many of us can insist that "what I do is the best ‘cause it works for me". But really what we need to do is understand whats going on inside and take a known good system and adjust it intelligently until it works.

You will notice that a lot of guys say you need high protein. That's valid. High protein can put you in ketosis. When your in ketosis your more sensitive to insulin because your blood sugar is more stable and it gives your receptors a moment to reset. Any more protein that that is just calories. If you keep your water way up and have no kidney or liver issues that's OK I guess.

You'll notice that there is less agreement on fat. That's because dietary fat for an older guy is a little trickier. You need it and if your in ketosis its a great energy source. But its concetrated calories and that can be an issue. And the wrong kind of fats can effect your cholesterol.

You'll notice there is even more controversy over carbs. They are complicated. You definitely need them. But they can get in the way real easy. They are the hardest to manage.

I could get into Fat and Carb management but I think I'd be lucky if you read this far.

[bb5-0]

Nice interesting threat so far bros
from what you told us I can already see some common ideas:
- keep your protein intake high
-drink a lot of water to avoid kidney problems
- the use of glutamine can help you avoid losing muscle along with fat
-beware of carbs!we need them, especially after working out, but for the rest better keep them low or they'll convert into fat
-replacing them by good fats could be a possible solution (keto diet) which would help us feel more energetic , decrease hunger, and increase fat loss though it doesn't seem to work for everybody
-anyway, if you use more carbs or more fats, the point is to take in less calories than you need , so that the body has to draw from his fat reserves
- cardio can help you. If you can't eat less, you can still be creating a calories deficit by increasing cardio.

Do you agree with my synthesis so far?
Any other interesting idea to add?
I feel this can be a very valuable threat to most of us. So let us hear about your personal experience


----------------
Knowledge is success
Together we're strong!

[ojs]

BB-50,


Originally posted by bb5-0
Nice interesting threat so far bros...

...Do you agree with my synthesis so far?
Any other interesting idea to add?
I feel this can be a very valuable threat to most of us. So let us hear about your personal experience

I woke up this morning thinking "I got to retract that long boring post cause nobody's going to read it." And I hope you meant to write "treat" like in nice and not "threat" like in menacing.

Anyway, you got the whole thing. You can approach the problem from so many ways its not funny.

My approach currently has been to tempt my body to prefer burning fat via ketosis (50%F 10%C 40%P) until I see in the mirror that my muscle glycogen is relatively depleted (for me between 4 and 6 days). I start looking flat. This is easy to do if your muscles are showing pretty well.

Then I try to force the muscle cells to refuel (40%F 50%C 10%P) by spiking my insulin with simple carbs and stuffing my face with complex carbs until my cortisol levels get so high it stops the process. Carbs moving intra-cellular get blocked at the gate and start going inter-cellular and so you start holding water. That's when the muscles are full (for me 18 to 24hrs) and you start storing fat. Since I'm under 10% BF, I can see it happen. I do a "Front-Double-Bicep" and the line just under my bicep goes smooth. Then I start all over

I try to match my supplements to the phase.

[bb5-0]

ojs,
shame on me! I should have reread my post and checked my spelling: I meant "nice thread" of course!

I'm glad you gave the percentage you use. I was surprised to see how low your protein intake is in the refueling phase. Any reason for keeping the fats high and the proteins low? And do you keep the same number of calories in both phases?

[kendo]

Hey Wabney :cool:

I am cutting for a show Wabney and was at the same stumbling block a few weeks ago and simply could not get the fat off for weeks. I got good advice from a personal trainer online and it was simple- if your carbs or cals are too low your metabolism shuts down so along with the fat burners and low calories your body is gonna hold on to that fat. He brought my carbs up to stimulate metabolism and increased my cardio to 60 mins each morn supping with glutamine and i couldnt beleive it the fat is just falling off and I'm eating more giving me more energy for the gym. Could be as simple as that without all the rocket science!

Good Luck Kendo

[ojs]

Kendo,


Originally posted by kendo
Hey Wabney :cool:

...brought my carbs up to stimulate metabolism and increased my cardio to 60 mins each morn supping with glutamine

...rocket science!

Good Luck Kendo

Hey, how much were your carbs before and after you upped them? And how much glutamine?

PS: sorry but I'm always trying to extract the "rocket science" from what seems to be working for someone. Either way, by succesful trial and error or by rocket science, does it matter? As long as it works right?

[ojs]

BB-50,


Originally posted by bb5-0
ojs,
...Any reason for keeping the fats high and the proteins low? And do you keep the same number of calories in both phases?


My body is a bit stubborn and takes two or three days to go back to a comfortable fat burning mode. So a bio-organic chemist/friend of mine suggested keeping the fats high so my body doesn't completely switch back to carbs. It worked; I'm in a comfortable fat burning stage in one day.

Your body absorbs carbs and your liver (even more if its damaged like mine) makes glycogen more efficiently when protein is not present. In the presence of protein both your carb absorption takes longer and the liver is busy processing amino's so glycogen production may slow down.

I don't set my calories when I'm carbing. I let my body tell me when its had enough. They could be anywhere from 3500 to 5500. If I'm bulking I let them go slightly past where I start holding water. During the keto phase I adjust my calories to bulk or cut. I do this in 1 to 3 month cycles. This year I'll probably have to get stricter if I expect to compete.

[wabney]

Ojs... could you eqplain this cortisol to DHEA thing without getting too extensive. the reason I am asking is i do suppliment DHEA
I have been for about 3 weeks now and don't really feal any difference. It may sound funny but the only effects if any is my mind seems clearer......

Here,s my diet..
now remember i work at night so I don't wake until like 1:00 pm

1:30 pm protein shake 30 g
2:00pm chicken breast w/ragu sauce 2oz
5:30pm chicken breast w/ragu sauce 20z
9:00pm chicken breast w/ragu sauce>. 2oz
10:30 protein shake 30g
11:00 workout ending w/20min cardio
12:30 turkey 5oz w salad
2:30 maby some penut butter
3;30 sleep

oh yeh I am 42yrs 5'7" tall 193lbs after this bulking cycle
arms 15"
chest 45"
weist 35"
b/f ?

What do you think guys.. by the way thanks

peace

[kendo]

Looking at your diet Wabney its a wonder your able to walk or think - no carbs at all? bit from the sauce? no fats? Theres no way you can stim your metab with carbs so low. You dont even take carbs after a workout. I was on 100g carb per day and feeling crap and went up to 200g/day at about 2200cals/day ( I'm short @150lbs) to start burning fat with the extra cardio. You'll get nowhere with that protein only diet - do you feel tired dizzy etc remember even brain function requires a certain amount of carbs? Think about it your torturing yourself and it doesn't have to be that way.

Goo Luck Kendo

[wabney]

Hey bro I know you are right it's just that iam not used to being this heavy and i guess that i am parinoid. I am actually doing cardio every day 20 min and hitting weights 3 times a week ..
I really do feel down like i am depleating my body. I really feel like I am starting to make things harder than they really are.
I am new to this Bulking then cutting thing. For years I have been working out with no real gains but staying pretty cut. But since i have been on this board for the last few months I have been learning so much about cycling I figured i would try it..
So after say 3 months of bulking i gained 13 lbs and I am tripping.
I know I gained some muscle i can tell but I also gained fat. Maby my body hasn't grown in so long that i am not used to feeling bigger. When and how much carbs do you suggest for cutting.
Also what do you think about all th cardio...

thanks bro

[ojs]

Wabney,


Originally posted by wabney
Ojs... could you eqplain this cortisol to DHEA thing without getting too extensive. the reason I am asking is i do suppliment DHEA
I have been for about 3 weeks now and don't really feal any difference. It may sound funny but the only effects if any is my mind seems clearer......

Here,s my diet..
now remember i work at night so I don't wake until like 1:00 pm

1:30 pm protein shake 30 g
2:00pm chicken breast w/ragu sauce 2oz
5:30pm chicken breast w/ragu sauce 20z
9:00pm chicken breast w/ragu sauce>. 2oz
10:30 protein shake 30g
11:00 workout ending w/20min cardio
12:30 turkey 5oz w salad
2:30 maby some penut butter
3;30 sleep



When do your replace your glycogen? You can stay in hard ketosis for 3 to 4 days and then the brain starts mis-firing if it doesn't get its daily carbs. You need a minimum (varies from person to person)of 20g to 65g of complex carbs per day to call it a no carb diet. Its possible that your getting 20g from the sauce, the protein drink and the salad, but, you should make sure. But it sounds like you need a hair more. And if your working out you still need to replace muscle glycogen regularly and preferably not more than 6 days apart. Some guys really need to at even 2 or 3 days. So, there is a lot of variation.

[kendo]

Wabney, If you're natural muscle loss is unfortunately part of the package when it comes to dieting and when bulking you have to allow for it. I used to think I was huge and muscular and am now about 50lbs lighter than that when ripped and I'm only 5'4". My before and afters would shock you. Dont kill yourself man put some starchy carbs from oatmeal, rice, sweet potatoes into your diet and increase your cardio gradually every day before breakfast (or whatever it is called in the pm) I'm up to 60 mins running every day and I'm sure you'll feel better and start to lose the fat!

My pics are in the thread below.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=421

[ojs]

Wabney,


Originally posted by wabney
Ojs... could you eqplain this cortisol to DHEA thing without getting too extensive. the reason I am asking is i do suppliment DHEA

oh yeh I am 42yrs 5'7" tall 193lbs after this bulking cycle
arms 15"
chest 45"
weist 35"
b/f ?

What do you think guys.. by the way thanks

peace
If your waist is only 35" and you weigh 193lbs you must be pretty solid and have some good size legs.


The Rocket Science Part:
DHEA is the precursor to 18 hormones (I think that's accurate) helps prevent heart attack and stroke. And, if low, can deteriorate your state of well being. Pregnenolone and DHEA sup in mid 40's and older is pretty common for keeping the LBM up by helping block the effects of Cortisol (Pregnenolone) and raising Testosterone (DHEA). As we get older we are exposed to the cortisol longer and when it finally moves along too much precurser doesn't even make it to the DHEA stage. And once its there, a smaller percentage than we'd like converts to Testosterone. Anybody out there with a very strong background in biochemistry correct me if any of this is inaccurate. I'm just a dumb CISCO Engineer treating my body like the Hot Rod that should be in my garage.

[wabney]

Hey thanks all

kendo good pics you look taller in pics.

Yeh,. I think do to my personality I am of coarse over reacting, i mean **** it took 3 months to put on the weight I have been only cutting for 2 weeks.. I will definatly put some carbs in my diet
i actually bought rice this week but didn't cook it. I am just very hard on myself and sometimes this can be done in the wrong way.
I also will get some sweet potatos **** I love them anyway.
I don't know why, i figure to get anywhere I must torture myself.
I guess that's just from being from the old school. But the ****ed up thing is the harder i am on my self the more damage i am doing
to my progress......

Oh and Oj from what I am getting from your post: i should keep on taking the DHEA. Like you said I really think it is starting to help with the feeling of "well being"'


peace

[Richie]

wabney, for the last 4 weeks i've been training with weights every other day and walking every other day (first thing in the a.m.) my aggression towards my weights has increased and i found by walking for about 45 min to an hour is enough for cardio. i think with cardio first thing in the morning all you need to do is get your metabolism fired up (as it slows down quite a bit during sleep and takes a while to get going again when you wake up) and it doesn't really matter if you walk for 30 min or 3 hours. i'm lucky as there is a few good hills right near my place so it really doesn't take long before i know it's working. Kendo's tips on carbs are good ideas to. also if your stressing about fat loss then you might find it hard to lose as well. i'm no expert but this seems to be working for me and my diet is mostly protein (chicken,egg whites,whey) and complex carbs (oats,sweet poatoe,broccoli,rice) and real small amounts at a time which also keeps your metabolism stimulated.Richie

[wabney]

how long does it take for you to cut after a bulking cycle??

[ojs]

Originally posted by wabney
how long does it take for you to cut after a bulking cycle??

I've been dropping around 4lbs to 6lbs of fat along with 2lbs to 5lbs of muscle per month. That's between 6lbs to 8lbs total. I have found that the slower you go the less muscle you lose. I've been trying to cycle like this nearly 2 years. My LBM started near 160 LBM and is near 200 LBM now. I think in contest shape I'd be around 200lbs and my LBM would be in the low 190's. However, tapping on Kendo's experience, it might end up lower than that.

[wabney]

Wow after hearing that I sure should of put on more weight than i did in my bulking cycle. **** i am sitting here sweating 13 lbs when it looks like in fact that ain't ****....lol

Like i said i am still learning.

So how much over your desired weight do you go when bulking??

peace

[ojs]

Originally posted by wabney
Wow after hearing that I sure should of put on more weight than i did in my bulking cycle. **** i am sitting here sweating 13 lbs when it looks like in fact that ain't ****....lol

Like i said i am still learning.

So how much over your desired weight do you go when bulking??

peace

I'm real conservative. The most I've ever gone is 25 lbs. And I was acting just like you. ...no, much worse. So I have been trying to go up only 12lbs to 15lbs max. Depends on how brave I was feeling. Now I won't go more than 10-12lbs. I'm past the free ride stage. So now the muscle doesn't come so easy. If I could be a 40year old again I bet I could pack on 10 more pounds...:)

[wabney]

Hey thanks again

I guess how much to put on depends upon how good a cutting cycle you can acheive and your body's ability to lose fat!!!

I want to cut for the summer after seeing how this goes maby next bulking cycle I will put on maby a little more


peace

[bb5-0]

Wabney

As you said we're learning a lot on this board. I also realized I could get better and faster results by adding some carbs to my diet from time to time, to cheat my body into losing more fat.
We're working by trials and errors, but I'm sure we'll get somewhere in the end ...with a lttle help from the bros

Kendo, nice pics you've got there! Like the shoulders and arms!
Keep on sending and motivating us!

[Original Poster]

Nice Thread guys. There is a lot of good info here.


kendo great pics.

ojs great info, I learned alot from your post. Thanks fellow Engineer.

PEACE

[wabney]

Hey kendo

Man I added some rice with my meals today and i tell you what, i can definetly feel the difference already. i don't think that no carb or real low carb is for me.. Now lets see if I can take the fat off with these added carbs. It has to be good for a change anyway.

peace

[Charger]

Great thread, I too have made the same mystake I guess of cutting too many carbs from my diet. I am 3 weeks from starting to cut so I can't wait to try it. Thanks everyone!

[ojs]

Hey Kendo,

You look pretty lean in those pics. How close to competition were you in those pics?

[kendo]

Day before but I could do with getting even tighter this time. I made the mistake of backing off carb loading too soon and went flat on show day.

ps can you help me out with my ccna? lol

[ojs]

I went back and re-read my long post and have no idea why I wrote the hormone list the way I did. I used the edit feature and just re-wrote the list as follows.

I believe the hormones we care about are:
1. Cortisol
2. Pregnenolone
3. DHEA
4. Estrogen / Testosterone
5. Insulin
6. HGH

Then I thought this would be more useful:
1. Cortisol:
blocks nutrients from entering muscle cells.
When carbs get too low Cortisol can get touchy.
In "Old Guys" raises drastically during stress like not resting enough or intense stress like hard weight training lasting over 40 minutes. (*That's important!)

2. Pregnenolone
Is made from "good" Cholesterol and is the first stage precurser to Testosterone
(*think old guys don't need fat?)

3. DHEA
Precurser to Testosterone

4. Estrogen / Testosterone
Estrogen helps you bulk and makes you soft.
Testosterone does all kinds of cool things.

5. Insulin
Increased Insulin pushes carb processing.
If Cortisol present we store carbs in fat cells
If Cortisol not present carbs get pushed into the muscle cells. (*This is very important!)

6. HGH
Everything recovery oriented and more while your resting and even more while your sleeping.
Shortens recovery from hard workouts.
Enhances the rate at which we build muscle.

[Wolfseven]

could help...

http://www.metabolicdiet.com/index2.htm