Big Cat... your post cycle nolva theory..

[Dr.Evil]

hey big cat (and the rest of bb.com), i am a vet at anabolicreview.com and was recently introduced to your board this morning when a member on our board notified me of big cat's article on clomid and nolvadex. it was an intriguing and well written article, but i can't say i agree to it at all.

big cat states that after a cycle where high amounts of androgens are used, estrogen production rises in order to compensate for a sudden decrease in hormone, causing test production to slow. (it's not exactly what you said, but i'm just paraphrasing). this is a very good point, so it would make sense to decrease the amount of estrogen after a cycle to bring back natty test. since nolva is a better anti-estrogen than clomid then it would make sense to use nolva post cycle for a more effective treatment of restoring natty test.

the problem is nolva does not decrease free flowing estrogen. it only prevents estrogen from binding to the ER. the feedback to the hypothalamus will still be the same (high estrogen levels), so natty test production will still be strongly inhibited. clomid exerts its effects at the hypothalamus where the signal for natty test production starts, nolva doesn't. nolva is not an effective theraputic agent for post cycle recovery when used alone.

[Ice Man]

so then would you suggest nolva and clomid?

[Dr.Evil]

i'd suggest clomid to restore post cycle test and either arimidex or nolvadex to keep estrogenic side effects to a minimum.

[Johan]

Hum I can se that this is going to become a interesting discusion :-)

[strangebrew]

Well I sure would like some other opinions on this before my 10 weeks is up. I am into my first week of my first ever cycle and I have nolva ready but if there is further evidence to support Dr.Evil then I might have to get some clomid before it's too late.

[Dr.Evil]

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1985 Nov;61(5):842-5

Evidence for a role of endogenous estrogen in the hypothalamic control of gonadotropin secretion in men.

Winters SJ, Troen P.

To examine the mechanism by which endogenous estrogens inhibit gonadotropin secretion in men, blood samples were drawn every 10 min for 12 h in five men before and at the completion of 3 weeks of treatment with the estrogen antagonist clomiphene citrate (50 mg twice daily). Samples were analyzed for LH and alpha-subunit by RIA. Clomiphene produced a 3-fold rise in circulating LH levels, which was associated with a 80% increase in pulse frequency and a 70% increase in pulse amplitude. Immunoreactive alpha-subunit secretion was also pulsatile before and after clomiphene treatment. Mean alpha-levels rose 70%, together with a 39% increase in pulse frequency and a 41% increase in pulse amplitude. Circulating testosterone and estradiol levels increased 2-fold and FSH levels increased 3-fold after clomiphene treatment. Insofar as each LH and uncombined alpha-subunit pulse reflects a LHRH secretory episode, our data indicate that endogenous estrogens tonically restrain the hypothalamic release of LHRH. From these results and those of previous studies, we conclude that estrogens as well as androgens are important in the testicular feedback inhibition of the hypothalamic oscillator that governs pulsatile gonadotropin secretion.


J Androl 1991 Jul-Aug;12(4):258-63

The effects of normal aging on the response of the pituitary-gonadal axis to chronic clomiphene administration in men.

Tenover JS, Bremner WJ.

Department of Medicine, University of Washington School of Medicine, Seattle.

Serum androgens decline with age in normal men, despite normal or elevated bioactive serum gonadotropins, suggesting that primary testicular dysfunction occurs with aging. The authors further assessed the question of age-related testicular dysfunction by evaluating whether raising serum gonadotropins above the normal serum range for an extended time in healthy elderly men might result in bringing their gonadal function to a level similar to that found in young adult men. Five elderly (65 to 85 years old) and five young adult men (26 to 33 years old) were given 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) twice a day for 8 weeks to stimulate gonadotropin production. During that time, testosterone (T), non-sex hormone-binding globulin bound T, and estradiol increased significantly in both age groups, while serum inhibin increased significantly only in the young adult men. The increases in serum androgens with CC administration were significantly greater in the young adult men than in the elderly men. These hormone changes occurred in the setting of serum gonadotropins that increased significantly in both age groups, although there was a tendency for the elderly men to have a smaller increase in luteinizing hormone. Despite 8 weeks of stimulation of the pituitary-gonadal axis by CC administration, the elderly men demonstrated significantly diminished testicular responses compared with the young adult men. Sertoli cell function, as determined by inhibin production, was more diminished in the elderly men than was Leydig cell function. These data strengthen the hypothesis that normal aging in men is accompanied by a decline in testicular function.


Urology 1991 Oct;38(4):317-22

Possible hypothalamic impotence. Male counterpart to hypothalamic amenorrhea?

Guay AT, Bansal S, Hodge MB.

Section of Endocrinology, Lahey Clinic Medical Center, Burlington, Massachusetts.

Twenty-one men with erectile complaints who were found to have a low level of serum testosterone without a reciprocal elevation of the serum levels of luteinizing hormone were evaluated to identify whether the defect was of hypothalamic or of pituitary origin. Patients underwent a luteinizing hormone (LH)-follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)-releasing hormone stimulation test that showed a normal but sluggish increase in LH and FSH levels, thus ruling out a pituitary defect and suggesting a suprapituitary abnormality. This was confirmed when, in response to clomiphene, patients had a normal increase in gonadotropin and testosterone levels. Although the basal as well as clomiphene and gonadotropin releasing hormone-stimulated levels of total testosterone and gonadotropins were identical in men less than and more than fifty years old, the elevation of free testosterone levels in response to clomiphene was higher in patients younger than fifty. This suggested that although the primary abnormality found in these patients is altered secretion of gonadotropin hormone-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus, an age-related decline in the responsivity of Leydig cells to LH may make it more manifest in older patients. Elevation of testosterone levels from a subnormal to a normal range in response to clomiphene administered for seven days suggests that the defect is functional and reversible and that the drug may be useful in treatment of sexual dysfunction in this group of patients.
Nephron 1993;63(4):390-4

Effect of clomiphene citrate on hormonal profile in male hemodialysis and kidney transplant patients.

Martin-Malo A, Benito P, Castillo D, Espinosa M, Burdiel LG, Perez R, Aljama P.

Department of Nephrology, Hospital Universitario Reina Sofia, Cordoba, Spain.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the role of clomiphene citrate (CC) therapy in the hypothalamus-pituitary-gonadal axis of male uremic subjects. Thirty-four patients on hemodialysis (HD) and 8 successful kidney transplant subjects (RT) were evaluated. Nine healthy males were used as controls (C). At baseline, zinc, testosterone (TEST), prolactin (PRL), FSH, LH and estradiol plasma concentrations were measured. All subjects were treated with CC (100 mg/day) for a week. The aforementioned parameters were determined again on the seventh day of CC therapy, and 3 days after drug withdrawal. Following CC, there was a rise in FSH, LH and TEST levels in all subjects (p < 0.05); it is interesting to stress that TEST became normal in HD. In addition, we observed a decrease of PRL after CC only in HD patients (p < 0.01). In summary, CC was able to partially correct most of the hormonal disturbances of the gonadal axis in uremic patients.

[Dr.Evil]

nolvadex aka tamoxifen studies:

Arch Gynecol Obstet 1993;252(3):143-7

Tamoxifen treatment of oligozoospermia: a re-evaluation of its effects including additional sperm function tests.

Sterzik K, Rosenbusch B, Mogck J, Heyden M, Lichtenberger K.

Abteilung Frauenheilkunde, Geburtshilfe der Universitat, Ulm, Germany.

Because of previous contradictory results, we reevaluated the effects of tamoxifen on 29 men presenting with idiopathic oligozoospermia. To determine whether a possible increase in sperm concentration might be correlated with an improvement of sperm quality, the hamster ovum penetration (HOP) test and the hypo-osmotic swelling (HOS) test were included as additional tests of sperm function. Patients were treated with tamoxifen (20 mg/day) for 3 months. From 4 weeks until the end of the study, tamoxifen had no significant effect (P > 0.05) on blood levels of luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone (T), or estradiol (E2). There was no significant improvement (P > 0.05) of conventional semen parameters (volume, concentration, motility, morphology), and of HOP and HOS test results. The lack of correlation between a rise in hormone levels and improvement of sperm quality suggests that tamoxifen is of questionable value in men with idiopathic oligozoospermia.


Asian J Androl 2001 Jun;3(2):115-9

Effect of intermittent treatment with tamoxifen on reproduction in male rats.

Gill-Sharma MK, Balasinor N, Parte P.

Department of Neuroendocrinology, Institute for Research in Reproduction, ICMR, Parel, Mumbai, India. dirirr@vsnl.com

AIM: To identify the antifertility effect of intermittent oral administration of tamoxifen in male rat. METHODS: Tamoxifen was administered orally at a dose of 0.4 mg x kg(-1) x d(-1) with an intermittent regime for 120 days. Treated and control rats were mated with cycling female rats on days 60, 90 and 120 of treatment. The mated males were sacrificed and the weights of reproductive organs were recorded, and the serum levels of LH, FSH, testosterone and estradiol estimated by radioimmunoassay. In the female rats, the numbers of implantation sites, corpora lutea, and numbers of normal and resorbed foetuses were recorded on d 21 of gestation. The potency, fecundity, fertility index, litter size and post-implantation loss were then calculated. RESULTS: The fecundity of male rats was completely suppressed by tamoxifen while the potency was maintained at the control level. The fertility index was significantly decreased. No viable litters were sired. Post implantation loss, indicative of non-viable embryos, was observed but was not significantly increased above the control level. The weights of the testes, epididymides, ventral prostate and seminal vesicles were significantly reduced. The blood LH and testosterone levels were significantly decreased, but not FSH and estradiol. CONCLUSION: Intermittent oral tamoxifen administration completely suppressed the fecundity of adult male rats with reserved potency.

[fields7]

So would clomid help raise natty test up if it had been shut down by a nonaromatising steroid, for instance winstrol?

[Dr.Evil]

yes, estrogen levels are raised post cycle because your hormone levels are so low due to the sudden withdrawal of external androgens and your body tries to raise estrogen production to compensate for hormone levels. this happens regardless of the kind of androgens you use, whether they aromatize or not.

anyway, to answer your question, clomid will help post winny cycles or any other cycles.

[fields7]

Why does the body compensate the low hormone levels with estrogen, why not test? Also technically the younger you are the quicker your test bounces back right?

[Dr.Evil]

estrogen is an easier biochemical step to get to. perhaps big cat can go into more detail with that.

younger people have an easier time like you said.

[Spock]

some nice excerpts there, this board gets better by the day - I hope you intend to hang around for a while Dr. Evil.......

[IME]

So...Dr. Evil...how would you run your post cycle therapy ie what doses of what drugs?? BTW, thanx for enlightening the board with some good posts. We could definately use a bro like you around here.

[Methuselah]

Evil is dead on in this thread. I was shocked when I read the article by Big Cat.

Here are three options on how to run your post cycle therapy; Dr. Evil is refering to option 2. Option 2 is the normal way to come off.

1.) If you're coming of a testosterone cycle and are planning to go back on after a 4 week break you can cycle off by waiting two weeks after last injection and injecting 1000 iu HCH ed for 10 days and resuming testosterone cycle for ten more weeks. This includes cycles where test is the base and other anabolics are stacked. Normal Test/Deca cycles are 10 weeks long and some include 4-5 weeks of Dbol at the begining or end. This will prevent testicular atrophy, you will be back on exogenous test so restoring your levels at this time is not critical.

2.) If your planning to come off cycle and stay off for a length of time equal too or greater than the length of time you were on cycle (recommended), you wait until the longest acting steroid is out of your body and begin clomid therapy for 21 days. 36 pills; Day 1, 300 mg, 6 pills; Next 10 Days, 100mg ed, 20 pills; Next 10 Days, 50mg ed, 10 pills. This will restore your natural testosterone levels and your testicular atrophy will go away by the end of the therapy.

3.) You can do both therapy's by waiting 1 week between the HCG and clomid. Or do the HCG mid cycle. I prefer 2 weeks off, 10 days HCH, 1 week off, 3 weeks clomid. My body responds a little slower at my age and I prefer to avoid the depression.

Here is a chart for your reference.

Steroid.....Time After Administration.....Clomid Length

Anadrol50/Anapolan50.......8-12 hours.....3 weeks
Deca Durobolan................3 weeks........4 weeks
Dianabol.........................4-8 hours.......3 weeks
Equipoise........................17-21 days.....3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone............3 days...........3 weeks
Primobolan Depot..............10-14 days.....2 weeks
Sustanon.........................3 weeks........3 weeks
Test Cypionate.................2 weeks........3 weeks
Test Enthenate/Testoviron..2 weeks........3 weeks
Test Propionate.................3 days..........3 weeks
Test Suspension................4-8 hours......2 weeks
Winstrol...........................8-12 hours.....2 weeks

[Ajaxx]

Dr. Evil...

How many hours do you have in YOUR day over there on the Volcano Island? Reading journals and posting on AR must take up 10 hours a day at least.

Bless you and your hard work!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
the problem is nolva does not decrease free flowing estrogen. it only prevents estrogen from binding to the ER. the feedback to the hypothalamus will still be the same (high estrogen levels), so natty test production will still be strongly inhibited. clomid exerts its effects at the hypothalamus where the signal for natty test production starts, nolva doesn't. nolva is not an effective theraputic agent for post cycle recovery when used alone.

Clomid does not stop free flowing estrogen either, they are receptor anatagonists. But if they keep estrogen from acting until natural test is restored, the estrogen will lose its influence. Plus, don't forget you'd be running it for 4 weeks, during which little or no new estrogen is made since there is no substrate for the aromatase present, meaning when therapy is finished, estrogen levels are way down anyway.

Ideal of course would be to run some prov or Arimidex the last week of a cycle and the first week after a cycle to kickstart your Nolva therapy, but its not necessary at all. Far more important in bringing natural test back is HCG. NOw that's why Nolva is so important as well, HCG will form estrogen in manners other than by aromatase, which arimidex or Prov cannot block, but Nolva or clomid can ...

Thanx for the feedback bro, but think you need to read up on this matter a little more.

[Big Cat]

In regards to your study, you seem to forget to that clomid and Nolva are essentially similar compounds. Both triphenylethylenes, both muild estrogens and both substrates for the estrogen receptor, not the aromatase enzyme. Your theory doesn't fly, since whatever goes for Nolva goes for clomid as well. You would know this had you bothered to read the entire article. They are almost identical in structure, but Nolva is a much stronger substrate for the ER, and where clomid actually slightly decreases LH response, Nolva will actually slightly increase it. Look up the studies at the bottom of the article as well...

Sorry bro, you lack expertise in this matter.

[BigG]

Good post Big Cat and thanks for the response on the arimidex.

Methuselah posted a useful chart in the middle of this thread with regard to clomid post therapy. If you are stacking these, ie cyp/ dbol/ deca do you start the therapy when you stop taking dbol 5-6 wks into the cycle or wait 2-3 wks after the entire cycle b/c of the test and deca?

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Big Cat
In regards to your study, you seem to forget to that clomid and Nolva are essentially similar compounds. Both triphenylethylenes, both muild estrogens and both substrates for the estrogen receptor, not the aromatase enzyme. Your theory doesn't fly, since whatever goes for Nolva goes for clomid as well. You would know this had you bothered to read the entire article. They are almost identical in structure, but Nolva is a much stronger substrate for the ER, and where clomid actually slightly decreases LH response, Nolva will actually slightly increase it. Look up the studies at the bottom of the article as well...

Sorry bro, you lack expertise in this matter.
You are not correct.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by BigG
Good post Big Cat and thanks for the response on the arimidex.

Methuselah posted a useful chart in the middle of this thread with regard to clomid post therapy. If you are stacking these, ie cyp/ dbol/ deca do you start the therapy when you stop taking dbol 5-6 wks into the cycle or wait 2-3 wks after the entire cycle b/c of the test and deca?
You start the therapy after the deca in your example.

[redman]

Awesome thread Bros. Big Cat, Dr. Evil and anyone else that knows thier stuff why not post the best Post cycle therpy for the B&B cycle. I would like to see how they differ and I'm sure there will be some good debates. This should be a great one for the archives.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by redman
Awesome thread Bros. Big Cat, Dr. Evil and anyone else that knows thier stuff why not post the best Post cycle therpy for the B&B cycle. I would like to see how they differ and I'm sure there will be some good debates. This should be a great one for the archives.
My vote is for clomid. 21 days. Day 1, 300mg; Next 10 days 100mg; Next 10 days, 50mg. 36 pills. This post cycle therapy helps control the excess estrogen and puts your natural testosterone levels very high. It also increases your ejaculatory volume, sperm count and reverses testicular atrophy. This is the best way to keep your gains and avoid post cycle depression.

IMO, arimidex is the best way to control estrogen during a cycle and Nolvadex is great when you don't have the money for arimidex. Nolvadex should be used at 40mg ed only if symptoms of gyno appear until they are gone and then continued at 20mg through the endo of the cycle. There is research that suggests that nolva will inhibit IGF-1 therefore inhibiting gains. Nolvadex can also be used from the beginning of the cycle at 10mg ed. This will control estogen sides and prevent the watery "steroid look" when on a test cycle. The lack of estrogen (from arimidex) or bound estrogen (from nolvadex) will inhibit a little of the strength gains because there is less water retention. And, if you subsribe to the IGF-1 theory (which I don't) it will further inhibit some potential gains. I like to do 10mg nolva because at the end of the cycle there is no water to shed and I'm not that gready about the gains I get on a cycle. Post cycle, when the water is shed, I believe that the gains are the same whether you did 10mg nolva or not. ie, doing nolva or arimidex you don't get the water in the first place, not doing nolva you lose 5-10 pounds of water post cycle.

Big Cat, how do you come off a cycle?

[cjm8232]

Excellent debate, we all appreciate it.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Clomid does not stop free flowing estrogen either, they are receptor anatagonists. But if they keep estrogen from acting until natural test is restored, the estrogen will lose its influence. Plus, don't forget you'd be running it for 4 weeks, during which little or no new estrogen is made since there is no substrate for the aromatase present, meaning when therapy is finished, estrogen levels are way down anyway.

Ideal of course would be to run some prov or Arimidex the last week of a cycle and the first week after a cycle to kickstart your Nolva therapy, but its not necessary at all. Far more important in bringing natural test back is HCG. NOw that's why Nolva is so important as well, HCG will form estrogen in manners other than by aromatase, which arimidex or Prov cannot block, but Nolva or clomid can ...

Thanx for the feedback bro, but think you need to read up on this matter a little more.
In fairness to Big Cat. I agree with this statement.

However, HCG only stimulates LH and FSH hormones so while your body temporarily is producing natty test and your testicles are restored to their normal size, your HPTA is not restored because your hypothalamus is not stimulated to signal LH and FSH on its own; therefore natty test production stops when the HCG stops. So, it is a good idea to go back on a cycle of exogenous testosterone or follow up with clomid after HCG therapy. Clomid stimulates the hypothalamus to signal the testicles to produce natty test therfore restoring HPTA; HCG bypasses the hypothalamus and signals the testicles directly.
HCG has an immediate effect on restoring the size of the testicles.

I think it's only important to bind the estrogen with nolva or remove it with arimidex if you are experiencing sides such as bloat, acne, and gyno. The cool thing about estrogen in a male's body is that is has a life of only a few seconds if unable to bind to a receptor.

[Dr.Evil]

big cat, i hope you're not advocating the use of hcg post cycle...

there are ER everywhere, in the bones, breast tissue, hypothalamus, etc. nolva and clomid are both ER antagonists, but they are both selective in which ERs to bind to. clomid is more effective in the suprapituitary regions and nolvadex is more effective at breast and bone tissues.


also, those studies don't lie big cat.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally written by Big Cat in his article:
The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit.


read the studies i pulled up. they show the opposite of what you stated.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil


read the studies i pulled up. they show the opposite of what you stated.

Big Cat, is there a misunderstanding? Did you type clomid and nolvadex in reverse by mistake? You do mean that nolva decreases response and clomid increases response, correct?. Evil is clearly right here. This has been common knowledge since Truman was in office.

[Dr.Evil]

btw, there are dozens more i can pull up, but i doubt anyone would read all of them since they all say pretty much the same thing. besides, i am too busy right now trying to get some more mojo and coniving my plans for world domination...

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
btw, there are dozens more i can pull up, but i doubt anyone would read all of them since they all say pretty much the same thing. besides, i am too busy right now trying to get some more mojo and coniving my plans for world domination...
I got wierd, didn't it? Can I eat the baby now?

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat in a previous discussion
Look ****head, either you live with the facts or you leave the board.... unlike you most educated folk in this world will take a controlled peer reviewed study over the opinion of an anonymous halfwit anyday.

the "controlled peer reviewed studies" have been provided....

there is 1 that supports tamoxifen to be more effective at stimulating LH than clomiphene, but the study was done in 1978. there were dozens in the last decade that show otherwise.

[TwistedSteel]

This is my first post on this board, I'm coming from anabolicreview.com. Dr. Evil knows his stuff, what he says is the truth. The man has a solid background in chemistry and pharmacology and his advice should be taken without question. No disrespect to you, Big cat, but we all make mistakes sometimes and in this case, I have to say that you made one.

[IME]

This has turned into a great debate with both sides being extremely knowledgable. However, me and the rest of the bros here are still waiting to see both sides opinions on the optimal way to come off of a steroid cycle.

[Dr.Evil]

no man's advice should be taken without question. not mine, nor big cats's. i encourage everyone to question the evidence and make up their own minds as to what they should believe.

to answer an earlier question, here's what i'd suggest for coming off a cycle:

clomid: 100mg/day for 3 weeks, 50mg/day for 1-2 weeks.
arimidex: .25mg/day for 3 weeks
creatine: 10g/day 4-5 weeks
decrease training volume and intensity.

[9natural9]

Dr. Evil is very respected over at anabolicreview.com, please be advised that he knows his ****.

This entire discussion reminds me of the bar scene in the movie Good Will Hunting, which Dr. Evil is playing the role of Will, and bigcat is playing the role of the pony-tail wanna be smart guy.......funny stuff

[Dr.Evil]

big cat, i did not come here to start an argument. for that outcome i apologize. i just was hoping that an educated discussion on this matter would help all members learn the best way to come off a cycle and possibly open their minds to your view as well.

your point of "if you have never tried it, don't bash it" is a very good point. i should encourage my fellow AR members to not say who's wrong or right. we obviously both have a good deal of information to pass onto members here.

[Methuselah]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Big Cat in a previous discussion
Look ****head, either you live with the facts or you leave the board.... unlike you most educated folk in this world will take a controlled peer reviewed study over the opinion of an anonymous halfwit anyday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So the person who yells the loudest wins? I still must agree with Dr.Evil. I'm sorry that you were embarrassed. I know that you're normally the top dog around here and that you're used to people believing whatever bull**** that spews from your pie hole.

[size]

I believe that BC has administered his nolva therapy suggestion to individuals. I could be mistaken but I believe he mentioned this when we first broached this subject. He stated that people had done 40mg, 30mg, 20mg and 10mg (six days then decrease). In doing this, all his subjects recovered fine. I find this very interesting and am thinking about giving the nolva a try b/c clomid therapy is in two weeks. But i am not fully convinced, and I want to keep my gains. Contemplating it with the addition of arimidex at .5mg eod for 1 week before nolva and 1 week into nolva.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by size
I believe that BC has administered his nolva therapy suggestion to individuals. I could be mistaken but I believe he mentioned this when we first broached this subject. He stated that people had done 40mg, 30mg, 20mg and 10mg (six days then decrease). In doing this, all his subjects recovered fine. I find this very interesting and am thinking about giving the nolva a try b/c clomid therapy is in two weeks. But i am not fully convinced, and I want to keep my gains. Contemplating it with the addition of arimidex at .5mg eod for 1 week before nolva and 1 week into nolva.
I hate to quote from credentials. But he is just plain wrong. I get my gear from my endocrinologist and I have been doing this for a long time. I called my doctor (whom is a dear friend of mine) to clarify this issue before making my posts. Realize that my friends practice is exclusive to hormone replacement therapy.

For all those on this board, please take the time to do some research and it will be apparent to you that Big Cat, with best of intentions, has passed some incorrect information. The information from my friend the doctor and the information provided by Dr.Evil is unequivocal.

Further, if Big Cat had some facts to stand behind he wouldn't have lost his temper and flamed the other members for posting there facts and opinions.

[Dr.Evil]

did big cat happen to document the results of his test subjects on tamoxifen and publish it in a scientific journal?

[size]

I do not think BC flamed anybody but that is besides the point. I believe and know clomid works and I have never known anyone to use/try nolva instead. This is why I have always stuck with clomid however it is an interesting topic no matter. Also I believe bill lleweyn(spelling?) stated the nolva idea before. I doubt BC documented it and I imagine that is sarcastic however I beleve he is pursuing a PhD in biochemistry so it is possible
However, I must add that what always works on paper does not always work in reality.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by size
I do not think BC flamed anybody but that is besides the point. I believe and know clomid works and I have never known anyone to use/try nolva instead. This is why I have always stuck with clomid however it is an interesting topic no matter. Also I believe bill lleweyn(spelling?) stated the nolva idea before. I doubt BC documented it and I imagine that is sarcastic however I beleve he is pursuing a PhD in biochemistry so it is possible
However, I must add that what alwasy works on paper does not always work in the reality.
I wonder what he meant by this?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Big Cat in a previous discussion
Look ****head, either you live with the facts or you leave the board.... unlike you most educated folk in this world will take a controlled peer reviewed study over the opinion of an anonymous halfwit anyday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[size]

Sorry about that, I must have scrolled past that one. Yes it is a flame I am sorry. no need for that in honest discussion.

[Dr.Evil]

no, that actually wasn't a sarcastic comment. i'm very interested in reading scientific journals in endocrinology, especially when my view points are challenged because that's when i learn the most.

[size]

completely understood.

[fields7]

Methusala, why the attitude?

[Johan]

hehe like I said earlier this is going to be interesting.
I have alot of respect for both dr.evil and big cat because I have been on both AR and here and seen that both have excelent knowledge. Because big cat have acctualy tried his nolva therapy I assume it works and clomid is guaranted to work.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by fields7
Methusala, why the attitude?
I tried be nice and stating facts. I didn't like the BC didn't take responsibility and made the "Look ****head comment" and a few others. A debate is a debate. No need for flaming or name calling.

BTW, I apoligize for my attitude. Maybe the next time someone's opinions are challanged we can have a more civil conversation. I just don't like the name calling and flaming.

[Spock]

Name calling, flaming and academic snobbery has no place in a learning environment such as this.

May I welcome the influx of knowledgable bro's from other boards, I hope you will hang around.

But please dont let a great debate like this (and others in the future) turn into a slur of personal attacks, regardless of who starts it or whatnot - just blank it.

We are all here to learn, and no one individual knows everything, no matter how knowledgeable they like to portray themselves.

Peace bros :)

[Iron horse]

what a show down!!

you guys both sound very convincing, although, it seems bigcat is ignoring a few things that don't fit into his theories.

Big Cat, I've heard your a really smart guy, buy Doc Evil has you beat on this one.

JMO

[IME]

Originally posted by Iron horse
what a show down!!

you guys both sound very convincing, although, it seems bigcat is ignoring a few things that don't fit into his theories.

Big Cat, I've heard your a really smart guy, buy Doc Evil has you beat on this one.

JMO
IMO, Dr. Evil has got this one thus far. But, I'm still waiting for another reply for BigCat. We've got a great debate going, don't let it die yet...:) BTW, thanx for both sides point of views, I've relearned and learned a tonne of stuff. Much Thanx goes out to all the educated bros who have contributed!!!

[redman]

Bros this is an awesome thread. I would like to hear from some Vets about post cycle therpy(Big Vince, Shot, Size, IME, TheWolverine, ect...) Both Dr. Evil and Big Cat are knowledgeable and are excellent resources so lets use them.

Bro's I have a question about an upcoming cycle.

Week 1-4 500mg Sust
Week 5-10 500mg Test Enth
Week 1-10 400mg TT Eq
Week 1-6 35mg Naps ED
week 3-10 50mg Prov ED

What would be my best bet to restore my boys quickly post cycle. Arimidex is not an option for me. I'm using the Prov to keep est under control. I would imagine that my post cycle plan for this cycle would be the same or similar to the Bread & Butter. I figure that is what we recommend to newbies so lets get that in this thread. Great debates. This board is awesome.

[Flo32]

Very interesting thread

But I think alot of posts showed some "attitude", but in some respects quite rightly so. As long as we dont get into "Your mamma" slander it will be ok lol

[OVRTrainer]

Originally posted by size
Also I believe bill lleweyn(spelling?) stated the nolva idea before

Bill Llewellyn, author of Anabolics 2002 has proffered this theory. There was an excellent debate on elitefitness a while back, in which both the clomid and nolvadex arguments were made and supported by studies. Big Cat is not alone in this point of view...

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by redman
Week 1-4 500mg Sust
Week 5-10 500mg Test Enth
Week 1-10 400mg TT Eq
Week 1-6 35mg Naps ED
week 3-10 50mg Prov ED

What would be my best bet to restore my boys quickly post cycle. Arimidex is not an option for me.

i'm not a fan of using proviron post cycle because it is an anabolic steroid and IMO it inhibits proper endocrine recovery. arimidex or liquidex is a much better choice, but since you said that's not an option for you, i'd suggest the following:

proviron 50mg wks 11-12 (this is not post cycle yet as androgens are still leaving the body).

clomid 100mg wks 13-15

[redman]

what about HCG?

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by redman
what about HCG?

what about hcg? hcg is unequivically the most effective way to stimulate "natural" test production, however this is not natural, nor does it help the endocrine recover. i wrote about hcg earlier and why i think it´s a poor choice for post cycle use.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by BigG
Good post Big Cat and thanks for the response on the arimidex.

Methuselah posted a useful chart in the middle of this thread with regard to clomid post therapy. If you are stacking these, ie cyp/ dbol/ deca do you start the therapy when you stop taking dbol 5-6 wks into the cycle or wait 2-3 wks after the entire cycle b/c of the test and deca?

You always wait with post-cycle therapy until the entire cycle is over. If the last steroid used is a long-acting one its common to wait 1.5 to two weeks, if its short-acting half to 1 week and if its and oral you start straight away.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by TwistedSteel
This is my first post on this board, I'm coming from anabolicreview.com. Dr. Evil knows his stuff, what he says is the truth. The man has a solid background in chemistry and pharmacology and his advice should be taken without question. No disrespect to you, Big cat, but we all make mistakes sometimes and in this case, I have to say that you made one.

If he had even the slightest idea about pharmacology, he'd keep his mouth shut when I'm talking, cause he'd know I was right. He made some comments that anyone with any level of scientific background should not have made, that makes me seriously doubt this post. I admire you sticking up for your friend, but its in his best interest that he educate himself before he attempts to educate others ...

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by 9natural9
Dr. Evil is very respected over at anabolicreview.com, please be advised that he knows his ****.

This entire discussion reminds me of the bar scene in the movie Good Will Hunting, which Dr. Evil is playing the role of Will, and bigcat is playing the role of the pony-tail wanna be smart guy.......funny stuff

Then why is it that Big Cat can present accurate facts, while Dr.Evil is chasing his tale saying that clomid is better than Nolva because Nolva doesn't stop the formation of circulating estrogen ? Neither does clomid dumb-ass. Listen, i'd be more than happy to continue such debates, but I expect my adversaries to at least research and comprehend the matter before they enter a discussion, its only common decency.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
did big cat happen to document the results of his test subjects on tamoxifen and publish it in a scientific journal?

Read the study I posted in my first post ....

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
no, that actually wasn't a sarcastic comment. i'm very interested in reading scientific journals in endocrinology, especially when my view points are challenged because that's when i learn the most.

Subscribe to Steroids and the Journal of endocrinolgy like i do, or visit the library at the local college
If you feel like learning, then learn, don't wait for others to teach you ...

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
big cat, i hope you're not advocating the use of hcg post cycle...

there are ER everywhere, in the bones, breast tissue, hypothalamus, etc. nolva and clomid are both ER antagonists, but they are both selective in which ERs to bind to. clomid is more effective in the suprapituitary regions and nolvadex is more effective at breast and bone tissues.


also, those studies don't lie big cat.

Your studies are totally one-sided, detailing the benefits of clomid, but none documented the comparison between Clomid and Nolva like the study I posted. So I feel to see how these studies are relevant. Noone questions the benefits of Clomid, only proving here that Nolva is clearly a better choice.

Clom and Nolva are not selective in their binding properties, they are selective in the way they are altered by the ER. They are both weak estrogens, which is why they have such a high affinity for the ER. Nolva for example works as an estrogen quite potently in the liver for example, but will totally resist conversion in breast tissue. But it definitely binds with equal affinity in both tissues.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil


read the studies i pulled up. they show the opposite of what you stated.

I did read the studies, and not just the abstracts like you probably did. Your studies showed an increase in LH in hypogonadal men after administration. This is a proven fact with both Clomid and Nolva, however, the rise in LH, does not immediately correspond with the rise of GnRH. Recovering levels will always increase from a homeostatic perspective, but the clomid will in term decrease the signal for GnRH, where Nolva continues to increase it, as clearly demonstrated by the study I posted. I thought you loved peer review studies as that's how you learn ? I suggest you start reading them, both the one I posted and the one you posted. As you clearly did not.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Methuselah
Big Cat, is there a misunderstanding? Did you type clomid and nolvadex in reverse by mistake? You do mean that nolva decreases response and clomid increases response, correct?. Evil is clearly right here. This has been common knowledge since Truman was in office.

Nope, no mistake, read the studies, all of them.Both increase LH post-cycle, but clom will decrease the GnRH response in time, while Nolva continues to improve responsiveness.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil


the "controlled peer reviewed studies" have been provided....

there is 1 that supports tamoxifen to be more effective at stimulating LH than clomiphene, but the study was done in 1978. there were dozens in the last decade that show otherwise.

For the record here, there is only one that details a comparison between Nolva and clomid, so there is only one that is relevant moron.

Look, this is pointless, either you school yourself and we can have this discussion in a serious manner (where I don't need to correct your idiocy) or you don't say stuff like that.

[Johan]

Big Cat or Dr.Evil can anyone of you point me out to any good(international) book or page that I can read to learn the basics about endocrinology??

Im very interested in the subject but I have no clue what all the advanced terms and stuff means and frankly dont even know where to start learning.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Johan
Big Cat or Dr.Evil can anyone of you point me out to any good(international) book or page that I can read to learn the basics about endocrinology??

Im very interested in the subject but I have no clue what all the advanced terms and stuff means and frankly dont even know where to start learning.

Principles and practice of endrocrinology by Becker. Its heavy and scientific material and the book costs in excess of 200 bucks, but if you are really interested, its the best buy you'll ever make.

[IME]

BANG!!!! Big Cat answers back!!! Although I would've preferred no insults in his rebuttle. To Dr.Evil: Do have a rebuttle left in you? (and I mean that in a friendly way).
I will ask that we keep this civil before it gets out of hand.
To Big Cat: I don't think Dr.Evil ment anything by what he said. As previously stated, I respect you both for your point of views. Its obvious both of you are extremely knowledgable. It is only for the greater good that we have debates go on. So, I'll ask again to keep the slanderish comments on hold and keep this debate alive. There is a lot that can be learned from the both of you as well as the other vets and mods. Recognize that we are all battling for the same thing....the truth.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by IME
BANG!!!! Big Cat answers back!!! Although I would've preferred no insults in his rebuttle. To Dr.Evil: Do have a rebuttle left in you? (and I mean that in a friendly way).
I will ask that we keep this civil before it gets out of hand.

Yeah, I know. I have a habit of getting carried away. He has plenty of rebuttle left I'm sure, the question is will he have a relavant rebuttle this time of will he keep nagging about his irrelavant studies he didn't even bother to read completely.

It is only for the greater good that we have debates go on.

Its for a greater good that anyone exposing themselves as possessing knowledge about certain matters but really does not is shown for what he/she is. Its hard to carry on a sensible debate when you feel the person you are conversing with is not on the same line as you.

[chetdog]

I really dont think anyone is on the the same line as BC


Chet

[fields7]

wow! that was a great come back. I have to admit i thought Big Cat was goign to lose his first argument ever but it looks like he is back on top now. way to go cat. I knewyou couldnt be proved wrong.

[IME]

LOL...Big Cat is in a class all by himself...:)
No, in all seriousness, like I said before, I see where they both are coming from and I also understand Big Cat's last point.

[AngelofDeath]

to dr. evil and big cat... you guys are some serious steroid nerds lmao! but thats cool, we need good nerds ummm i mean bros like you to figure things like this out. if it werent for fellas like you we'd still be in the dark on a lot of new techniques and theories. great debate men... it got/is getting a lil hot but good reading none the less.
respect,
AOD

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by fields7
wow! that was a great come back. I have to admit i thought Big Cat was goign to lose his first argument ever but it looks like he is back on top now. way to go cat. I knewyou couldnt be proved wrong.

I was out of town, pulled an all nighter. 27 hour shift. So didn't have much time to reply while apparently Dr.Evil got plenty of people to come on here to back him up without actual new proof. I can see how that may look to my disadvantage. But never forget, I hate to lose, especially if I'm right to begin with :)

[Big Cat]

Here is another study for Dr.Evil, since he seems to think clomiphene is so great. Came across it today, because a bro is competing the PBF Europeans this June, and had heard from a friend who got eyesight trouble after using clomid post-cycle :

Visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene citrate.

V. A. Purvin

Midwest Eye Institute, Methodist Hospital of Indiana, Indianapolis,
USA.

OBJECTIVE: To identify a distinctive constellation of persistent
visual abnormalities secondary to treatment with clomiphene citrate.

DESIGN: Description of the clinical findings in three patients with
visual disturbance secondary to clomiphene treatment.

SETTING: A neuro-ophthalmology referral center.
PATIENTS: Three women aged 32 to 36 years treated for infertility with clomiphene for 4 to 15 months.
RESULTS: All three patients experienced prolonged afterimages (palinopsia), shimmering of the peripheral field, and photophobia while undergoing treatment with clomiphene. The results of the neuro-ophthalmologic examination and electrophysiologic studies were normal in all three patients. Unlike previously reported cases, visual symptoms did not resolve on cessation of treatment. Patients remain symptomatic from 2 to 7 years after discontinuing treatment with the medication.
CONCLUSIONS: Treatment with clomiphene can cause prolonged visual disturbance. Patients who develop such symptoms should be advised that continued administration may cause irreversible changes. Women with characteristic visual symptoms should be questioned about past use of clomiphene.

[IME]

And the hits just keep on coming......Big Cat is one smart mofo!! Were damn lucky to have such a brother like him around. Much respect bro!! He's relentless!!

[IME]

I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE THIS ONE A STICKY!!!!

[fields7]

Originally posted by IME
I THINK WE NEED TO MAKE THIS ONE A STICKY!!!!

I second that.

[Johan]

Thanks for the book advice Big Cat, Il have to search for it in some liberary.

[Dr.Evil]

i'm surprised and disappointed that your board would allow such an arrogant flamer to moderate your board, but i guess that's the difference between your board an others...

i'm not even sure what the hell big cat was trying to say other than a whole lot of baseless insults. so far i've been the only one posting studies on this thread backing up my arguments. if big cat wants a complete article i could post that up too. it would take up quite a bit of board space, but i have no problems with that.

big cat, obviously you did not read all the abstracts i pulled up otherwise you would have seen the one that said tamoxifen was ineffective at raising LH and test levels. why do you choose to ignore this?

the only negative study big cat could find against clomid had nothing to do with LH or test.

originally posted by big cat

Then why is it that Big Cat can present accurate facts, while Dr.Evil is chasing his tale saying that clomid is better than Nolva because Nolva doesn't stop the formation of circulating estrogen ? Neither does clomid dumb-ass. Listen, i'd be more than happy to continue such debates, but I expect my adversaries to at least research and comprehend the matter before they enter a discussion, its only common decency.

first of all, i am the only one to have brought out accurate facts. you have brought out a barrage of flames and theories unsupported by research and experimentations, no facts.

did i ever say clomid stopped formation of circulating estrogen? you said in your article that "nolva reduces estrogen levels." this simply is not true for both clomid and nolva, but since you were only talking about how nolva did this, that's what i thought was appropriate to point out.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

But never forget, I hate to lose, especially if I'm right to begin with :)

i didn't realize this was a competition and that it meant so much to your life to "beat" dr.evil... what are you, friggin austin powers? lol.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

Its hard to carry on a sensible debate when you feel the person you are conversing with is not on the same line as you. [/B]

i agree, it's truly frustrating for me...

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


For the record here, there is only one that details a comparison between Nolva and clomid, so there is only one that is relevant moron.



one study?

i don't have access to the studies right now on sunday, but would you like to retract that statement before i post more studies to make you look like the moron?

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Both increase LH post-cycle, but clom will decrease the GnRH response in time, while Nolva continues to improve responsiveness.

proof...

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

I thought you loved peer review studies as that's how you learn ? I suggest you start reading them, both the one I posted and the one you posted. As you clearly did not.

which one did you post? can you give me a link?

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Subscribe to Steroids and the Journal of endocrinolgy like i do, or visit the library at the local college
If you feel like learning, then learn, don't wait for others to teach you ...

was this directed toward me? if so, i don't see where you're coming from... did i come off as waiting for you to teach me? lmao.

[SHOT]

I must agree with DOC here..im disapointed this had to turn into a flame war...we can talk about things without trying to make ppl look stupid...this is a message board for us to learn and teach on....some of us know more about things then others so we can all help each other out...

i havnt read this thread enough to pick a side cause unlike these two steroids nerds (big cat and DR) i have a life and i do workout haaaaaaaaaaa:)

no i will read the whole thread one of these nights when i get home from the gym i am interested in what both of you had to say the little nerd inside of me wants to learn to lol...

but lets keep the flamming down to the min bros...damn it seems like BIG Cat need to take a clomid or to and settle his test filled ass down lol and Dr seems to be on his post cycle clomid now stayin on cool and **** lol....

just want to try to keep the peace here bros

[Dr.Evil]

lol. thanks SHOT. i've always respected you as a mod and you come through again, moderating this thread. you were always real helpful over on BSS. i've been off the boards for a while and when i came back you weren't there anymore. what happened? the traffic there sucks now too...

[Spock]

Cautious bump for SHOT - irrespective of whether who is right or wrong, BC, you did get a little elitest there whether you meant it or not. Sorry bro, just calling it like I see it. Just because you see someone to have inferior knowlede to yours, doesnt mean they should automatically be treated as sub-human....

Like I say, I dont think you intended to come across this way, but that is the way it looks.....

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Spock
Cautious bump for SHOT - irrespective of whether who is right or wrong, BC, you did get a little elitest there whether you meant it or not. Sorry bro, just calling it like I see it. Just because you see someone to have inferior knowlede to yours, doesnt mean they should automatically be treated as sub-human....

Like I say, I dont think you intended to come across this way, but that is the way it looks.....

i hope this was not directed toward me. i would never see anyone to have inferior knowledge to me, not even big cat ;)

[Spock]

LOL :)

It was directed at anyone who displays academic snobbery or portrays themselves to be somehow better than an other simply because of the knowledge they have amassed.(note knowledge, not intelligence, therein lies a subtle difference:))

[size]

i am going to start therapy next week on Wed. I know clomid works because i have used it and it went fine. the nolva therapy I have not used so i do not know if it works or not. However, i think that i am going to use a combination of clomid and nolva , Day1 100mg clomid and 40mg nolva. then 50mg clomid and 20mg of nolva for 17days, instead of typical clomid therapy. then i will see if i recover as quickly and to the same degree as just with clomid. What do you guys think about this?
Dr.Evil and Big Cat please tell me what you think.

However, i do realize that this will not solve this debate but it may add some insight.

[SirSavageX]

I shouldn't be getting involved in this, but...

Dr. Evil, here is a very credible source that agrees with Big Cat's perspective regarding the debate over Clomid/Nolvadex post-cycle. This is Bill Llewellyn's (founder of Molecular Nutrition and author of Anabolics 2000 and Anabolics 2002) article, with references, on this very subject that he wrote for Avant Lab's online magazine Big Motherf*cker, "Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation".

www.avantlabs.com/issue6/big_mfr_issue_6.htm

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Spock
Cautious bump for SHOT - irrespective of whether who is right or wrong, BC, you did get a little elitest there whether you meant it or not. Sorry bro, just calling it like I see it. Just because you see someone to have inferior knowlede to yours, doesnt mean they should automatically be treated as sub-human....

Like I say, I dont think you intended to come across this way, but that is the way it looks.....

I have read some of Big Cat's other threads on the board and he always comes off this way. What's his problem?!? I didn't think mods acted this way? Is flaming allowed on this board?

[Smitty]

Some respect is demanded

The people here freely dedicate their time to answer your questions, questions you may otherwise not find a straight answer too as is the case on many boards. If a question has not yet been answered and is not a basic question, it deserves an answer. All too many some questions are easily dismissed on other boards. So people come here for answers and get them. All that we ask in return is that you have the courtesy to respect these rules and that you do not flame those who help you simply because you do not concur with their thoughts. You ask for answers and will receive them, that does not mean you will like the answer. It does mean that you have to accept it. Arguments are normal, opinions will differ. But please keep it civil.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13435

Straight from BigCat's board rules... why should we follow them... he doesn't!

[k.n]

i am an endurance athlete.[sory for the speling]
my traing is 600mile -+ aweek [cycling], b/c of that i know
and feel my test levels are low[also i take alot of stimulant].
my wish is to up my test and low the estrogen in my body
with out put any mucsle on .
i use clomid before .
i use anrogens like proviron with no good resolts.
4 weeks ago i start using nolv 10mg and i feel very good with it
[also leaner wich is good for me].
i now using arim 1mg ed and also feel good and strong on the bike.
Q:what are your thoughts on increasing test with anti es alone?
Q:how to cycling this ?[on/of weeks]
Q:whate are the side effects?

i am 27 , 176cm, 63k, 5-6% bf.

thx

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
i'm surprised and disappointed that your board would allow such an arrogant flamer to moderate your board, but i guess that's the difference between your board an others...

What ? That we actually research something and expect people to know a little about the things they discuss before we freely allow them to spew crap ?

so far i've been the only one posting studies on this thread backing up my arguments.

You'll have to explain this one to me, I'm not following your logic. All your studies concerned the use of clomiphene and its benefits only. The studies I posted detailed A) a superiority of Nolva to clomid on a comparison basis and B) the fact that clomiphene is not generally regarded as safe. Tell me now how you have been able to back up your argument ?

the only negative study big cat could find against clomid had nothing to do with LH or test.

I guess you missed this part when you, ahum, read it :

[regarding the restoration of normal testosterone function]"tamoxifen should be preferred over clomiphene for this purpose in fact, as side by side its clearly the stronger agent. It was also shown to increase LH responsiveness to Gonadotropin releasing hormone after time, while clomiphene slightly lowered the sensitivity as the drug is used for several weeks"

Just to help you, because I know you are a little behind in matters of physiology and endocrinology : GnRH is the precursor hormone to LH and the direct key to testosterone manufacture. Without GnRH there is no LH, and thus no test. Feedback mechanisms operate on the blocking of GnRH release from the hypothalamus, not the LH production of the hypofysis, which is the function of GnRH.

first of all, i am the only one to have brought out accurate facts. you have brought out a barrage of flames and theories unsupported by research and experimentations, no facts.

Me thinks you highlighted the wrong word. SHould have highlighted accurate. Oh wait, that word really doesn't apply here does it cause you've been speaking besides the question all along. I like to bring out barrages of flames when people bring out barrages of crap...

did i ever say clomid stopped formation of circulating estrogen? you said in your article that "nolva reduces estrogen levels." this simply is not true for both clomid and nolva, but since you were only talking about how nolva did this, that's what i thought was appropriate to point out.

Yes of course that's why you recommended clomid and either ari or Nolva be used. That's the dumbest thing I ever heard. Clomid and Nolva are similar compounds, and Nolva is clearly the stronger of the two. You my friend, are so full of it.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
i agree, it's truly frustrating for me...

I understand, if I was trying to discuss matters I couldn't comprehend with someone who did comprehend them, I'd get frustrated as well ...

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
one study?

i don't have access to the studies right now on sunday, but would you like to retract that statement before i post more studies to make you look like the moron?

Don't come crying to me afterwards ok ?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
proof...

Is reading no longer needed for people where you are ? I posted the study, read the damn thing.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by SHOT
I must agree with DOC here..im disapointed this had to turn into a flame war...we can talk about things without trying to make ppl look stupid...this is a message board for us to learn and teach on....some of us know more about things then others so we can all help each other out...

What was that thread I saw you post in the other day that started off with the words "flame away" ? We have a long history of flaming idiots and morons on these boards. Either you forgot that or you are making an exception cause Dr.Evil is from BSS ?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Smitty
I have read some of Big Cat's other threads on the board and he always comes off this way. What's his problem?!? I didn't think mods acted this way? Is flaming allowed on this board?

Depends who you flame. hehe. No really. I just have a habit of coming off that way. Stupid Type-A behaviour. I just condemns misinformation, which is why I tend to get a little overheated in these matters. My apologies to the other members. its just who I am.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by k.n
Q:what are your thoughts on increasing test with anti es alone

ER antagonists have some effect in increasing testosterone in men with normal test function, but obviously not as much. To that effect, according to the study previously posted, Nolva is the better choice for long-term use as it has a positive effect in GnRH release, where clom has a negative one. A better choice still may be to opt for an anti-aromatase. If the aromatase enzyme is blocked, no estrogen is formed, but no test is used to form it either, meaning a higher level of free testosterone.

These practices come with a big question mark of course. What is the purpose. gains will not increase with this as estrogen has been shown to be a major component in performance and muscle growth. It increases glucose utilistation, GH/IGF-1 levels, androgen receptor concentration and so forth. Reducing estrogen may therefor have a negative impact on growth and performance.

Q:how to cycling this ?[on/of weeks]

Nolva has been used for long treatments without adverse effects and has recently gained major popularity as a prevention medicine as well, so at low doses, this should not form a problem. With clomid you'll want to limit the use ti 4-5 weeks maximum for two reasons previously mentioned : A) clomid causes irreverible eyesight problems and B) clomid has a negative impact on LH responsiveness to GnRH.

Q:whate are the side effects?


Joint pains, lethargy, depression, lowered immunity, and in the case of clomid eyesight problems and decreases responsiveness to GnRH.

[seb paris1]

BC ive listened to your advice for a while now. you can flame whoever you want i dont care but could you please reply my email. i need your help bro.

[Big Cat]

Sorry bro, must not have gotten it. Send it again and I'll get back to you. I should be home most of the night, otherwise I'll get back to you by morning.

[redman]

Bro's it seems that I have started a war. Big Cats has been around here for a long time and he knows his ****. He has helped me countless times and always gave me awesome adivce. When it comes to training and my body I trust Big Cat and a few of the other mods around these parts. Dr. no offense but I think BC has got you on this one. This is definitly one of the better threds I've seen on this topic. I've put a few links to other threads about this since I've been interested in Nolv post cycle for a while.


http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4574

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5671

[IME]

Well, I maintain my position to make this a sticky post and everything else I said regarding the flame wars. I will also say that the world would definately be a BORING place is everyone was exactly the same - meaning that oh well if Big Cat gets a little testy when he rebuts to some Newbies crap post (Not implying that Dr.Evil is Newbie). I believe that "steroids" need that kind of blunt, direct, and honest approach to it. To often, newbies do not appreciate what they're messing with and I would rather see them put in their place immediately rather then getting a slap on the wrist now and end up somebody's prison bitch latter. We are the last and only line of education the seperates the newbies from the police/ govenment. If a newbie can't do so much as handle a flame/bruise to their ego, then he/she shouldn't be messing with roids in the first place (IMO). Although, I'm not condoning flaming by any means - but, even I do it. It should be used to the discretion of the vets and mods. IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE HEAT, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE KITCHEN. We were all new to this at time, and we're all still standing (knock on wood). Only the strong/smart are meant to survive this game and (for the their sake) I'd rather weed out the weak now. I guess all I'm saying is that it is survival of the fittest in this game and discretion should be used when posting.

[redman]

Originally posted by IME
IF YOU CAN'T TAKE THE HEAT, GET THE HELL OUT OF THE KITCHEN. We were all new to this at time, and we're all still standing (knock on wood). Only the strong/smart are meant to survive this game and (for the their sake) I'd rather weed out the weak now. I guess all I'm saying is that it is survival of the fittest in this game and discretion should be used when posting.

Bump that!!!!! All the test flowing around here sure makes for some interestiong reading. This board is awesome....

[Methuselah]

High flowing testosterone is a wonderful thing.

[Smitty]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Depends who you flame. hehe. No really. I just have a habit of coming off that way. Stupid Type-A behaviour. I just condemns misinformation, which is why I tend to get a little overheated in these matters. My apologies to the other members. its just who I am.

Fair enough. :)

[Methuselah]

Agreed.

[Dr.Evil]

big cat, the more you post the more you look like a spoiled arrogant 8-year old who has to get your way or else you'll cry. lmao. temper temper...

Originally posted by Big Cat


What ? That we actually research something and expect people to know a little about the things they discuss before we freely allow them to spew crap ?

how is this a response to anything i said about you being too arrogant to be a mod?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
You'll have to explain this one to me, I'm not following your logic. All your studies concerned the use of clomiphene and its benefits only. The studies I posted detailed A) a superiority of Nolva to clomid on a comparison basis and B) the fact that clomiphene is not generally regarded as safe. Tell me now how you have been able to back up your argument ?

you need to brush up on your reading skills my little temper-tantrum child. before you dismiss my studies, you should read the ones that are done on tamoxifen. they're right after the ones that talk about clomiphene.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
I guess you missed this part when you, ahum, read it :

[regarding the restoration of normal testosterone function]"tamoxifen should be preferred over clomiphene for this purpose in fact, as side by side its clearly the stronger agent. It was also shown to increase LH responsiveness to Gonadotropin releasing hormone after time, while clomiphene slightly lowered the sensitivity as the drug is used for several weeks"

please show me where this study was posted in this thread... the only one you posted was about abnormalities with vision, nothing about LH.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
Just to help you, because I know you are a little behind in matters of physiology and endocrinology : GnRH is the precursor hormone to LH and the direct key to testosterone manufacture. Without GnRH there is no LH, and thus no test. Feedback mechanisms operate on the blocking of GnRH release from the hypothalamus, not the LH production of the hypofysis, which is the function of GnRH.


no ****?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
I like to bring out barrages of flames when people bring out barrages of crap...

what was the barrage of crap i brought out?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
Clomid and Nolva are similar compounds, and Nolva is clearly the stronger of the two.

again, where the hell is your proof?

if there's one answer i'd like to get out of you it's this:
what do you have to say about the studies that showed tamoxifen to be ineffective. just to remind you, these posts are right after the studies on clomiphene on the first page of this thread

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

Either you forgot that or you are making an exception cause Dr.Evil is from BSS ?

what about your exceptions to your board rules about no flaming period. someone has double standards eh?

also, SHOT has no idea who i am. no one does. i had another name on the boards and came back as someone else. he is not siding with me because i was on BSS because he had no idea. i used to be on this board long before you were big cat.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


For the record here, there is only one that details a comparison between Nolva and clomid, so there is only one that is relevant moron.


for the record here, there is more than one study that details a comparison between nolva and clomid, so there are more than one that is relevant moron.

Am J Physiol 1983 Feb;240(2):E125-30

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.

__________________________________________________ _________

Br J Pharmacol 1978 Apr;62(4):487-93

Differential depletion of cytoplasmic high affinity oestrogen receptors after the in vivo administration of the antioestrogens, clomiphene, MER-25 and tamoxifen.

Kurl RN, Morris ID.

1 The in vivo actions of the oestrogen antagonists, MER-25 and tamoxifen upon the cytosol oestrogen receptors prepared from amygdala, hypothalamus, pituitary and uterus of rats were studied 24 h after drug administration. 2 There was a dose-related depletion of cytosol oestrogen receptors. However, the uterine and pituitary receptors were consistently affected at a lower dose than were those from the brain. 3 The ratios of the combined central ED50 to the combined peripheral ED50 were clomiphene 169 greater than MER-25 19.2 greater than tamoxifen 2.13. 4 The receptor changes were not related to biological activity monitored by serum luteinizing hormone levels and uterotrophic response. 5 The possible role of these drug effects in the induction of ovulation and future developments are discussed.

__________________________________________________ __________

the following study was not available in my library, so i wasn't able to obtain the article or abstract. it may have to be purchased, so if someone is interested, here's the title and authors of the research.

Nippon Funin Gakkai Zasshi 1978 Oct;23(4):398-404

[The hormonal dynamics picture of tamoxifen treatment cases, in comparison of clomid treatment cases]

__________________________________________________ _______

Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2000;(2):CD000151

Clomiphene or tamoxifen for idiopathic oligo/asthenospermia.

Vandekerckhove P, Lilford R, Vail A, Hughes E.

Institute of Epidemiology, University of Leeds, 34 Hyde Terrace, Leeds, Yorkshire, UK, LS2 9LN.

[Dr.Evil]

it's quite time consuming searching for all these studies to prove to big cat that there are more than just one that compared the 2 antiestrogens. i hope that finding 4 is enough, but i assure you there are more.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
big cat, the more you post the more you look like a spoiled arrogant 8-year old who has to get your way or else you'll cry. lmao. temper temper...

Poor baby, is my temper bothering you ? Are you afraid of the big black cat ?


how is this a response to anything i said about you being too arrogant to be a mod?

Its not, its a reply about our boards being different. BTW, if your board is so much better, why don't you stay there ? Don't tell me they can't tolerate your crap there anymore either ?

you need to brush up on your reading skills my little temper-tantrum child. before you dismiss my studies, you should read the ones that are done on tamoxifen. they're right after the ones that talk about clomiphene.

They are dated, do not discuss effects on endogenous hypothalamic function and severely flawed. Again, did you bother reading anything but the abstract or is that not done anymore ?

please show me where this study was posted in this thread... the only one you posted was about abnormalities with vision, nothing about LH.

Here it is again, go back over the posts, i'm sure you'll find it :

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F. Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. J Fertil Ster 29 320-27

Start on that one, and if you aren't satisfied I have some others for you.

no ****?

Well one of us has to do the research, no ?

what was the barrage of crap i brought out?

Clomid being better than Nolva for any purpose ...

again, where the hell is your proof?

Read the study, for the umpteenth time. That link to Bill Llewellyns article that someone posted may be a good one to read as well, and a reference made by methusalah to an article by Bill Roberts in another thread as well.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
what about your exceptions to your board rules about no flaming period. someone has double standards eh?

That's what I'm saying moron, there is nothing out of the ordinary here. SHOT and the other mods flame as well. I would expect mods to know the difference between flaming someone for no reason and flaming someone spouting stupid remarks.

also, SHOT has no idea who i am. no one does. i had another name on the boards and came back as someone else. he is not siding with me because i was on BSS because he had no idea. i used to be on this board long before you were big cat.

Your first post stated you were from BSS ...

[Spock]

Can you guys cease fire for just a minute?? I have ran out of popcorn!!! ;)

Man I love a good soap opera...........

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
Am J Physiol 1983 Feb;240(2):E125-30

Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro.

Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS.

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.


On this study Bill Llewellyn commented the following :

This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Good enough for ya ? Apparently there are still some people who read more than the abstracts ...

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
Nippon Funin Gakkai Zasshi 1978 Oct;23(4):398-404

[The hormonal dynamics picture of tamoxifen treatment cases, in comparison of clomid treatment cases]


I had it faxed over, but I had to go by the abstract because it was something I definitely don't speak. Anyway, this is just another good way for me to show that one must research and read before posting, because you'll find that this study documented tamoxifen was the better choice for treatment in the majority of cases because it was stronger component with estrogenic activities in less tissue than Clomiphene, and less resulting complications. Thank you for making my case as I would certainly have never found this study on my own.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Spock
Can you guys cease fire for just a minute?? I have ran out of popcorn!!! ;)

Man I love a good soap opera...........

Hold on, I still have one more study to read.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Are you afraid of the big black cat ?

it's april fools here baby. ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat

Its not, its a reply about our boards being different. BTW, if your board is so much better, why don't you stay there ? Don't tell me they can't tolerate your crap there anymore either ?

once again, twisting my words. did i ever say the boards i frequent more often are better than this one? you still haven't addressed the question why this board allows such an arrogant flamer like yourself to be a mod.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
They are dated, do not discuss effects on endogenous hypothalamic function and severely flawed.
how many research papers have you published? are these research papers severely flawed because you said so? then by god that must be the truth! amen brotha!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
Again, did you bother reading anything but the abstract or is that not done anymore ?

yes i did. what would you like to know from the article?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
Here it is again, go back over the posts, i'm sure you'll find it :

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F. Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. J Fertil Ster 29 320-27

Start on that one, and if you aren't satisfied I have some others for you.


please tell me what page of this thread that study was posted on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
Well one of us has to do the research, no ?

that was a joke.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat

Clomid being better than Nolva for any purpose ...

again, twisting my words. did i ever say clomid being better than nolva for any purpose? no.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Cat
That link to Bill Llewellyns article that someone posted may be a good one to read as well, and a reference made by methusalah to an article by Bill Roberts in another thread as well.

do you not know how to find these articles yourself? i've read that link and it's valid. i admit that they have a good point because they actually provided factual research, something you have not done yet in this thread. i have no problem accepting fact from published research, but i can't accept biased theories from you and take them to be fact.

so, the clear evidence now is that there are research studies to support your point and mine, so the conclusion is ambiguous at best. why are you so blind to this?

fyi, the research that supports your view is more dated than any that support mine.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
clomiphene 169 greater than MER-25 19.2 greater than tamoxifen 2.13.

You are aware that you just made my case by demonstrating that the level of binding and activating estrogen receptors in tissue is much greater for clomiphene and MER 25 than it is for tamoxifen, but I'm sure a great scientist like yourself already knew this.

BTW, before I'm done killing you (and I must admit you make it too easy) here is one more for you :

The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Read the study, for the umpteenth time. That link to Bill Llewellyns article that someone posted may be a good one to read as well, and a reference made by methusalah to an article by Bill Roberts in another thread as well.
The study that I posted was only comparing the two as anti-e's and the myth that Nolva inhibits gains while on cycle. However, I always do mention that while I like the opinions of body builders, the medical journals are far more credible. Note that in the article, Bill Robert dismisses Dan Duchaine. So the conclusion is that there is more than one point of view in the body building community; but the medical journels are always consistent.

The article does not have opions on the effect of Clomid or Nolva regarding HPTA.

The article that I posted can be found here.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21996

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Your first post stated you were from BSS ...

i was from EVERY board, including this one. i left the boards in early september and came back in march under a different name. no one knows who i was

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.



the fact that nolva blocks estrogen goes without question, but you were saying before that nolva significantly raised LH. thanks for making my case...

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Big Cat


You are aware that you just made my case by demonstrating that the level of binding and activating estrogen receptors in tissue is much greater for clomiphene and MER 25 than it is for tamoxifen, but I'm sure a great scientist like yourself already knew this.

BTW, before I'm done killing you (and I must admit you make it too easy) here is one more for you :

The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

I'm confused now. Big Cat, are you still on the side of novladex on this issue?

I thought that the issue was that you are on the side of using nolva post cycle for HPTA recovery. That's what started this debate. Are you now posing that clomid is better? I may be misunderstanding your last post. Please clarify this for me, I'm off track somewhere.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


I had it faxed over, but I had to go by the abstract because it was something I definitely don't speak. Anyway, this is just another good way for me to show that one must research and read before posting, because you'll find that this study documented tamoxifen was the better choice for treatment in the majority of cases because it was stronger component with estrogenic activities in less tissue than Clomiphene, and less resulting complications. Thank you for making my case as I would certainly have never found this study on my own.

my point here was not to be biased to find studies that support your case or mine. it was to find more than one study that you claimed to have ever been done between the 2.

[Deary Deary Me]

Just so you know, I am fast approaching 40 yrs of age, and I have been a BB (pro for a while, way back when) since I was 19. My current job is as a Personal Trainer for the current "New Blood" on the pro BB scene. I stil cycle, and I still oversee the cycles of others. In short, and without blowing my own trumpet here, I DO know my ****. (Please dont ask me names, Im sure you understand that I cant supply them)

I have just joined this board. In fact I have only just found this board, being something of a newbie around a PC.

I have just read (and re-read) this thread. Its not the first I have read, but its by far the one which has upset me the most, and has given me cause to create my profile here with just one intention - to say my thing and leave!

I am horrified, mortified at the things which are being said in this thread! I assume that people come here to learn? Am I correct?

If I AM correct, and people ARE coming here to learn from others, who have (one assumes), plenty of experience they would like to share, why is it that this thread has turned into a slanging match?

Im sorry Big Cat (no doubt I will also get a tirade of abuse for this) but you are completly wrong! I HAVE tried these things, on myself and along with others in my time, and THE ONLY post cycle, test recovery that truly works is clomid.

You mention that you hate to be wrong - What happens when you ARE wrong? Do you have the courage to admit your mistake, or, like you have done here, do you engage in a name calling, abusive tirade against any and all who seem to disagree with you?

I dont know anyone on this board, not Big Cat or Dr Evil, but I can tell you from personal experience, and from the experiences of those I have trained and trained with, Dr Evil is correct. Im really not too worried if I get lots of abuse from Big Cat or any of his cronies, since I long outgrew the need to retaliate against such behaviour. My ONLY reason for this post is to try to help those who are reading this and trying to decide who is correct and who is not.

DR EVIL IS RIGHT

My last, and final word in this mesasge, and indeed on this board is to ask Dr Evil a Question: Which other board are you a member at? I think it would suit me better than this one. I would be more than glad to share my experience with people who are prepared to listen and disagree in an inteligent manner, rather than throw around abuse and accusations.

Thanks for reading this (if you did)
Dr Evil, I will monitor this thread for your answer.

DY

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


You are aware that you just made my case by demonstrating that the level of binding and activating estrogen receptors in tissue is much greater for clomiphene and MER 25 than it is for tamoxifen,

binding and activating? lol.



Originally posted by Big Cat

The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45

sorry, i can't find this one.

[Dr.Evil]

hey deary, the board i'm most active on now is anabolicreview.com. we will have disagreements there, but they're civilized discussions where people can learn without the hostile atmosphere.

bb.com used to be pretty cool too, but i guess things have changed since september...

[Dr.Evil]

btw, it would be nice to have more experienced members like yourself to come to our board and help out. i hope to see you there.

[Spock]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil

bb.com used to be pretty cool too, but i guess things have changed since september...

Dont judge a board because of one experience........

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Methuselah

The study that I posted was only comparing the two as anti-e's and the myth that Nolva inhibits gains while on cycle. However, I always do mention that while I like the opinions of body builders, the medical journals are far more credible. Note that in the article, Bill Robert dismisses Dan Duchaine. So the conclusion is that there is more than one point of view in the body building community; but the medical journels are always consistent.

The article does not have opions on the effect of Clomid or Nolva regarding HPTA.
[/url]

Nope, but Dr.Evil was questioning the likeness of Nolva and clomid in structure, hence that reference. And as demonstrated here today, I'm sure you'll agree that medical journals are not always consistent ... Which is why its important to pick out the flaws to form an opinion.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Methuselah


I'm confused now. Big Cat, are you still on the side of novladex on this issue?

I thought that the issue was that you are on the side of using nolva post cycle for HPTA recovery. That's what started this debate. Are you now posing that clomid is better? I may be misunderstanding your last post. Please clarify this for me, I'm off track somewhere.

The activation of estrogen receptors reduces HPTA recovery, and as demonstrated by your study, the activation of clomid as compared to Nolva for the same level of binding, is much greater.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Spock


Dont judge a board because of one experience........
One experience??? WTF? I've been called a dip****, dickhead, and dumb ass in every thread. I'm highly regarded where I come from. You have an ego maniac trying to sell supps from the main page moderating this thing? Come on!

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


The activation of estrogen receptors reduces HPTA recovery, and as demonstrated by your study, the activation of clomid as compared to Nolva for the same level of binding, is much greater.

so binding means activation?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
sorry, i can't find this one.

Ok, sorry then. The gist of it is that clomiphene upregulates SHBG and may result in less free testosterone.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
so binding means activation?

Not too bright are we ? For the same level of binding, clomid has more activation than Nolva. If they were the same, that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense now would it ?

[Spock]

Originally posted by Methuselah

One experience??? WTF? I've been called a dip****, dickhead, and dumb ass in every thread. I'm highly regarded where I come from. You have an ego maniac trying to sell supps from the main page moderating this thing? Come on!

OK I realise that you may have had more than one run in ;)

But a lot of things are out of our respective controls here. All I am saying is that there are many people here, myself included who respect the fact that you take the time to post, and it is a shame to brand us all with the opinion that you hold for someone else just becasue there has been a little "friction".

This goes to you as well Dr. Evil, your input is appreciated.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Deary Deary Me
Im sorry Big Cat (no doubt I will also get a tirade of abuse for this) but you are completly wrong! I HAVE tried these things, on myself and along with others in my time, and THE ONLY post cycle, test recovery that truly works is clomid.

That's cool bro, you are entitled to your opinion. You have one post here and your incessive denial that you know Dr.Evil only confirms my belief you are a stooge. You have only one post here, so your opinion means fairly little to me. The fact that I just tore down every study Dr.Evil posted, found a lot of proof that shows clomiphene is not a good choice for someone seeking a healthy way of therapy and that I have the support of two of the leading researchers in this field regarding this matter, means more to me than the words of someone who will not even reveal his identity or post any shred of proof. So I see no need to flame you, you have no credibility.

You mention that you hate to be wrong - What happens when you ARE wrong? Do you have the courage to admit your mistake, or, like you have done here, do you engage in a name calling, abusive tirade against any and all who seem to disagree with you?

Proof speaks for it self, at that point what I say will make no difference, but yes I can admit when i'm wrong.

My ONLY reason for this post is to try to help those who are reading this and trying to decide who is correct and who is not.

And how did you achieve this ?

[Dr.Evil]

so you're saying suppressive binding doesn't exist? next are you going to tell me mifepristone slightly activates the progesterone receptor when it binds to it?

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat


Ok, sorry then. The gist of it is that clomiphene upregulates SHBG and may result in less free testosterone.

ok, since i have no access to it i'll take your word for it. i'm sure there are many more like this one, but please don't deny that fact that there are many that go against it and also many that will say tamoxifen is ineffective. there is obviously plenty of evidence to support both sides... can you argue with that?

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
so you're saying suppressive binding doesn't exist? next are you going to tell me mifepristone slightly activates the progesterone receptor when it binds to it?

DUDE ARE YOU MENTAL ? Activation and binding are two entirely different things. Fact is that both tamoxifen and Clomiphene are mild estrogens and can exert estrogenic activity at some estrogen receptors but not at others. WHAT about this do you not comprehend ?

[Big Cat]

Why is it that people seem so reluctant to accept that I just could be right in light of all that was said here ? That includes the other mods. I'm well aware that what I say goes against myths established decades ago and that some of you may be scared or superstitious about new evidence, but this is ridiculous...

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

Activation and binding are two entirely different things.

that's my whole point. you seemed to have confused this earlier, but obviously you realize it now.

[Spock]

Why dont you guys get a room....

:) A chat room that is - sort this out in real time so it stops filling up the board? Its getting to the point where its a bit of a waste of space simply because most folks are becoming a little disjointed form the debate.

[Methuselah]

Originally posted by Spock


OK I realise that you may have had more than one run in ;)

But a lot of things are out of our respective controls here. All I am saying is that there are many people here, myself included who respect the fact that you take the time to post, and it is a shame to brand us all with the opinion that you hold for someone else just becasue there has been a little "friction".

This goes to you as well Dr. Evil, your input is appreciated.
Sorry Spock, I only brand one. There are many cool bro's here; including you.

I came to this board for one purpose only. That purpose was to help clarify the information that one of AR's member brought to us from http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnolv.htm

Since then, I've read other threads where the advice has been wreckless. An example of that is someone with credibility (on this board) stating that cortisol is a fat loss agent. Not true. Another example is stating that prohormones are steroids. Not true again.

I'll stay around awhile, but I won't be resonding to the flames and poor advice of the subject member.

My only advice to all, and this thread proves it, is that there is more that one source of information. Research everything that you are told. The medical journels are regulated and always the best source. And lastly, opinions are like *******s; unless you are Big Cat who is just an ******* with an opinion.

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat
Why is it that people seem so reluctant to accept that I just could be right in light of all that was said here ? That includes the other mods.

because you put up a flame wall that people can't see through.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
ok, since i have no access to it i'll take your word for it. i'm sure there are many more like this one, but please don't deny that fact that there are many that go against it and also many that will say tamoxifen is ineffective. there is obviously plenty of evidence to support both sides... can you argue with that?

To a point, yes. Although only one study of the 7 or 8 you posted turned out to support your argument. But ok, 1 is not none. So you have a point there. However, one must note that my principle study was an in-vivo study that was directly relevant to the increase of testosterone in normal and oligospermic men alike. That's a point you can't deny either. I also have the support of Bill Llewellyn, a highly respected authority on this matter and refuted most of your studies and arguments.

But its pointless to go on, there is too much arguing beside the point now. So lets agree to disagree. Not that you have to, I'm sure you've noticed I enjoy a challenge :D

[Dr.Evil]

Originally posted by Big Cat

However, one must note that my principle study was an in-vivo study that was directly relevant to the increase of testosterone in normal and oligospermic men alike. That's a point you can't deny either.

it's a good study and i have no reason to deny the information presented in there.

Originally posted by Big Cat

But its pointless to go on, there is too much arguing beside the point now. So lets agree to disagree.

well said.
you're a cool cat when you're more down to earth.

[Flo32]

Was I the only one to notice this in the thread above?

Snip

I'll stay around awhile, but I won't be resonding to the flames and poor advice of the subject member.

My only advice to all, and this thread proves it, is that there is more that one source of information. Research everything that you are told. The medical journels are regulated and always the best source. And lastly, opinions are like *******s; unless you are Big Cat who is just an ******* with an opinion.

Snip

First sentence, first para and last sentence, last para??

This thread has def been interesting..but when stuff like that gets said, in complete contradication, its causes problems!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Methuselah
Since then, I've read other threads where the advice has been wreckless. An example of that is someone with credibility (on this board) stating that cortisol is a fat loss agent. Not true. Another example is stating that prohormones are steroids. Not true again.

Yes they are, you said it yourself. By your definition of a steroid, they most certainly are. And cortisol is a fat loss agent, as are all catabolic hormones.

My only advice to all, and this thread proves it, is that there is more that one source of information. Research everything that you are told. The medical journels are regulated and always the best source. And lastly, opinions are like *******s; unless you are Big Cat who is just an ******* with an opinion.

oooohhhh, bravo. But good advice nonetheless, the information does speak for itself.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Flo32
First sentence, first para and last sentence, last para??

This thread has def been interesting..but when stuff like that gets said, in complete contradication, its causes problems!

Contradictions will happen, all people are inherently hippocrits whether they like it or not. All of us included. The bigger man is the one that does not use it as an excuse to argue ...

But nice of you to point it out.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
well said.
you're a cool cat when you're more down to earth.

Yes, you'll have to forgive me my abundant character, I get caught up in a good debate. And credit where credit is due, this has been the best one in months.

[Dr.Evil]

to the dismay of all our fans it looks like my bickering will end here, so finish up your popcorn and get some rest... :D

[Spock]

whilst you guys are in an informative mood.......just thought I would ask....... can I drink winny???

:);):)

[redman]

Damn I went to post and it was 2 pages longer before I was finished typing.

This is without doubt one of the best threads I've followed. I'm sitting here chuging down some protien LMFAO...

What can we debate on next... Come on Bro post some ideas...

[Big Cat]

Dunno, there isn't that much controversial about steroids, this is one of those rare issues that provides us with lots of research and speculation.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
to the dismay of all our fans it looks like my bickering will end here, so finish up your popcorn and get some rest... :D

No worries, I have two weeks off, so i wasn't planning on staying in all night either. Don't think its an issue we'll resolve, best to let things speak for themselves.

[IME]

PARTING WITH STYLE AND CLASS....A PERFECT END TO A GREAT DEBATE!! Thanx for both sides opinions i.e Big Cat & Dr.Evil. Were all damn lucky to have you bros around...:)

[SHOT]

For the record i dont know who "DR. Evil" is....if he changed his name then that tells me he did it for a reason and doesnt want ppl to know his old name for some reason or another...not say its good or bad...if he wanted me to know who he was im sure he would have PMed me to let me know..

i didnt pick sides cause he said he was from BSS bwhahah thats a joke...i didnt even pick sides i just said BIG CAT was getting alittle testie with some of his post...im not going to try to correct another mod...i dont care weather he flames or not...

i dont like to see someone judge this board over one post that they read..or said it has gottin changed cause of one person...if anything this board improves everyday...i think we can all agree...

now you to can kiss and hug and be friends or im going to ban you both of you and tell your parents about this....dont think i wont:)

now im going to pitch a tent over this circus and close this thread...its to many pages to to much to read threw...intime im going to delete the flamers and useless post and keep the good ones by DR E and BIG C so we can learn from this without having to read threw all the BS to....

im going to finsih up reading this post tonight and im going to try BIG CATS nolv post cycle and see how i feel about ti and then post what I think on it...cool with everyone??

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by SHOT
now you to can kiss and hug and be friends or im going to ban you both of you and tell your parents about this....dont think i wont:)

If you do, I'm gonna tell on you... :D

now im going to pitch a tent over this circus and close this thread...its to many pages to to much to read threw...intime im going to delete the flamers and useless post and keep the good ones by DR E and BIG C so we can learn from this without having to read threw all the BS to....

Dunno, there were some other good one too. I think we should keep the thread as it is.

im going to finsih up reading this post tonight and im going to try BIG CATS nolv post cycle and see how i feel about ti and then post what I think on it...cool with everyone??

You won't be dissapointed, trust me :)

[RetiredMod]

bump

[BIGSMITH]

BIGCAT; DR.EVIL, Stop your petty ass back and forth insults. All it does is bring discrase to both your boards anbd no legitacy to your arguments. Some people come to this board to give good advice and some come to recieve some, but when thet have to listen to self described know it alls seeing who can scream the loudest it's pretty sad. I don't doubt either of your knowledge, but your jusrt loseing respect for yoyu poist. Either work together or justr agree to disagree it's that easy. By the the way if your going to compare two products. Make sure it's non bioust and that they are actually comparing the to. Best of luck.

[RetiredMod]

Originally posted by BIGSMITH
BIGCAT; DR.EVIL, Stop your petty ass back and forth insults. All it does is bring discrase to both your boards anbd no legitacy to your arguments. Some people come to this board to give good advice and some come to recieve some, but when thet have to listen to self described know it alls seeing who can scream the loudest it's pretty sad. I don't doubt either of your knowledge, but your jusrt loseing respect for yoyu poist. Either work together or justr agree to disagree it's that easy. By the the way if your going to compare two products. Make sure it's non bioust and that they are actually comparing the to. Best of luck.
lol you obviously didnt read the whole thread

[BIGSMITH]

Last few pages were good just read'em

[gofer]

This is an interesting thread! I'm gonna have to subscribe and read later!

[u5711]

Originally posted by BIGSMITH
BIGCAT; DR.EVIL, Stop your petty ass back and forth insults. All it does is bring discrase to both your boards anbd no legitacy to your arguments. Some people come to this board to give good advice and some come to recieve some, but when thet have to listen to self described know it alls seeing who can scream the loudest it's pretty sad. I don't doubt either of your knowledge, but your jusrt loseing respect for yoyu poist. Either work together or justr agree to disagree it's that easy. By the the way if your going to compare two products. Make sure it's non bioust and that they are actually comparing the to. Best of luck.



Hahahahaaa, no way. Oh damn I love it. What a great end to an amazing thread! If there's one thing to be said from this I think it would be to give the other a try and see how it goes, maybe. 5 *!

[DR.MAX]

Damn that took me forever to read all the way threw

[Feli Fly]

Damn good thread fellas. Heck, I registered on this board just to put this post in... LOL

I read Big Cat's clomid and nolva article a few months back. Before that I had considered them separate compounds due to their fairly different clinical usages. Since then I have made a point to learn more.

I have to admit that nolva does have a stronger case for PCT in my personal opinion and I will be using it at a low dose throughout my first cycle (sust/deca) to minimize hypertension and fat gain (would rather use armidex or femara, but cost limits me) and nolvadex will be used for my first cycle's PCT.

After reading many opinions on the topic, I went to my PDR as I do for many of the anti-estrogen profiles, clinical study results, and side effect lists.

My bottom line as of now? (keep in mind I have not had pharm or path yet)

Their structures are similar.
Their mechanisms are virtually identical.
Nolva is far more effective mg for mg.

Nolva's typical dosage for patients is 20-40mg/day for years if need be. Clomid's is 50 or 100mg/day for five days at a time; more than 6 five day cycles not recommended due to a host of side effects (namely reproductive ones in females, but still, many I would like to sidestep if possible). The nolva PCT proposition does not use dosages even close to those readily prescribed to patients, while clomid PCT asks one to take a clomid cycle 4 or more times as long and with dosages higher (at least during the beginning) than is commonly prescribed.

That kinda tells me something, and I do not see a need to risk extra sides if there is no real need to... JMO.

I am not claiming to be any authority on the subject and have never used any AS or either of the anti-e compounds in question, so don't flame me LOL.

Thanks to all who posted info in this thread; a very ineteresting read. :)

[MurphMan]

Originally posted by Dr.Evil
what about hcg? hcg is unequivically the most effective way to stimulate "natural" test production, however this is not natural, nor does it help the endocrine recover. i wrote about hcg earlier and why i think it´s a poor choice for post cycle use.

From a layman.... What would your response be to using HCG to quickly increase natty test and simultaneouly using Clomid to stimulate the HPTA? Wouldn't this help to keep more of our gains as we would have a faster rise in natty test and also be charging up the HPTA so it is funtioning properly?

[DoctorX2k2]

Quoting Billy Madison... just for fun :D
-Mr. Dr. Evil, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[RetiredMod]

Originally posted by MurphMan
From a layman.... What would your response be to using HCG to quickly increase natty test and simultaneouly using Clomid to stimulate the HPTA? Wouldn't this help to keep more of our gains as we would have a faster rise in natty test and also be charging up the HPTA so it is funtioning properly?
i think he was talking about hcg usage on its own, which does suppress natural testosterone production hence why you must supplement with some clomid or nolvadex after hcg usage for at least 2 weeks

[MurphMan]

Originally posted by McBain
i think he was talking about hcg usage on its own, which does suppress natural testosterone production hence why you must supplement with some clomid or nolvadex after hcg usage for at least 2 weeks


Agreed. It just seemed that, in the context, he was saying HCG is not benificial. So, in short, HCG WILL help retain more of our gains as it DOES increase natty test, just that we must also use Clomid/Nolva to stimulate the HPTA for ultimate recovery of natty test.

[B.A.D]

bump

[UMR]

I am a new guy and I am little bit curious.I want to ask that can clomid alone be useful for post cycle recovery or HCG is must with it?

[Baj]

I appreciate both of you helping others. After joining bodybuilding.com i realized how little i knew about bodybuilding. Nice sticky

[The.Giant]

Jesus H. Christ that took a long time to read!!!! :D

Ok, so after ready 6 pages of that **** i feel like my head is going to explode. But hey, i havn't had to use my brain since school got out last month so it's a good explosion :D

That was one of the best threads i've read on this whole board...too bad we couldn't come to a decisive conclusion.