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Manteca
02-25-2002, 09:57 AM
please try and post all of your keto questions in this thread, there are just so many now.

To start I have 2 of my own. Is it a good idea to take in lower than 50g carbs a day the first 3 days or so to get into ketosis more quickly? Second I have heard you say fitnessman that if you take in a very tiny amount of carbs you will be in a very catabolic state. Why is it that the ~50g is so neccesary in the diet? Why is it such a bad idea to go lower?

Like I said lets please try and centralize all of these questions a bit instead of having 100 threads all dealing with 1 topic

Original Poster
02-25-2002, 11:00 AM
Manteca,

This is why we need a keto categorie. But I guess your thread will have to do for now.

Question 1:
Is it a good idea to take in lower than 50g carbs a day the first 3 days or so to get into ketosis more quickly?

My thoughts: I personally don't think it matters, most people will get to ketosis in 2-3 days. I don't think a day or two longer makes much of a difference. I think that may just be a way of getting there (into ketosis) for sure for people who have not yet assessed what carb level they need to be below b4 keto happens.

Question 2: (more like 3 questions)
Second I have heard you say fitnessman that if you take in a very tiny amount of carbs you will be in a very catabolic state. Why is it that the ~50g is so neccesary in the diet? Why is it such a bad idea to go lower?

My thoughts: a few times I went under 50g/day (actually about 25-30) and I could feel I was catabolic (if that is possible), no energy, severe brain fog. I was only able to maintain that for a few weeks (pure hell). Once I learned that there had to be 30-35 grams of carbs in my post workout drink, I had no problem. But prior to learning this, I think I actally lost some muscle doing such low carb without a proper post workout meal.
I do believe when under 50g/day the body freaks out sort of and all kinds of things that can only be catabolic happen.
(I would love to have some of the more science minded people address this one.)

I am actually a believer in a carb up meal or two a week. Even on keto. Par has a good article that deal with leptin levels and purposeful carb up meals.

PEACE :)

Manteca
02-25-2002, 11:16 AM
I think the keto category idea is a great one. We should really see about getting one started. It would certainly be alot hotter than the "meet other bbers" catergory :) I think you are definately right about brain fog being more of a problem with too few carbs, it can make me feel very detached.

Tim
02-25-2002, 11:43 AM
I have a couple questions: 1. I was wondering if you can marinade your meats in teryiaki or soy sauce on a keto diet. I know they have some carbs, but very few, and I would think that the amount of carbs that are absorbed by the meat is much too low to get you out of ketosis.

2. Can you eat tomatoes, pickles and peppers? I've been avoiding them so far becasue I wasn't sure.

Manteca
02-25-2002, 11:52 AM
I have to make a concious effort to get carbs in sometimes Tim, I think that the marinade would be fine as long as you worked those cals into your plan.

Tim
02-25-2002, 11:59 AM
Interesting. I don't think that getting the carbs in is a problem - the problem is making sure that you don't get too many. If you eat veggies like spinach, brocolli, and lettuce with your meats, getting the carbs in shouldn't be a problem. Cheese and sausage also contain some carbs, but very few. I think I have to watch out that I don't get too many carbs, because I really think that I need my fiberous veggies.

T-T
02-25-2002, 08:38 PM
Question of the day - WTF is a "keto" diet and what is it's purpose?

Thanks :D

fitnessman
02-26-2002, 01:14 PM
Nice answer CHi.....I really cant add to it.

But I will:)

Low carb/ Atkins type diets get you to close to a protien for fuel metabolism. We all know this is a bad thing for obvious reasons.

With a keto diet and carb spiking and the other little tricks we keep the body in a positive state of growth. Which we all know is a good thing.

Keep in mind the min. I recommend to anyone is 50g dietary carbs PLUS 30g post work out carbs. Anything less is silly. We are bodybuilders, not an overweight desk jockey.

Not overly scientific, But my brain seems to be cooked today.

T-T do a search.

Manteca
02-26-2002, 02:09 PM
It is a bit more of an issue for me as far as getting in enough carbs because I buy for example 5lbs of ground beef (0 carbs) a **** load of cheese (0 carbs) and maybe some chicken breast (not sure but I think 0 carbs) and I will live off of basically just this for like 4 days. I am trying to incorperate salads into the mix though, I can't resist a good fatty salad, I added egg, diced chicken breast, bacos, cheese and a healthy serving of the fattiest ranch I could find, man is that stuff good and it makes an ideal meal for keto if you mix it in the right proportions.

Original Poster
02-26-2002, 02:58 PM
Damn, I'm getting hungry. All this talk of food.

Oh Yeah, NBD, I eat every 2-3 hrs anyway.

I actually love this 5-7 meals a day thing. I feel like I'm eating all freakin day, but I'm on a diet - LOL

Tim
02-26-2002, 03:11 PM
Doesn't cheese have some carbs (lactose) though not much? I have no problem getting my carbs in because I think that it is absolutely necessary to eat fiberous veggies like spinach and lettuce. But I don't think that it is exactly 50g carbs that I get every day. It might be a little bit less, but not much.

bigpoppa
02-26-2002, 04:00 PM
Here's my keto question: If I lift 3 times a week (Mon Wed Fri) and run 3 times a week (tues thurs sat), should I still have 30 grams protein and 30 grams dextrose after I run? Or should I have strictly whey after I run? I do 30 and 30 after I lift, but I'm not sure whether or not I should after I run if I'm only running that day

stroudpr
02-27-2002, 05:06 AM
just whey

Manteca
02-27-2002, 06:19 AM
I think both, especially on a keto diet

cortezthekiller
02-27-2002, 09:29 AM
First post, woo-hoo.

I've been on my keto for 3 weeks using the ratios and info, I've found on this site, and I've lost 12 lbs, feel great, and honestly haven't had any cravings -- except the first two days. I've opted for going with the 1 cheat meal a week...i.l.o. the 24-36 hr carb load. I love Italian food, so this has basically been the chance for my wife and I to go to our favorite Italian restaurant...where of course I get plenty of carbs in pasta and bread. The problem is, while the food is great, it really effects me... almost like I'm drugged. I'm pretty much shot for the night. The next morning I feel fine, and my workouts are still up to par if not a little better that day. Is this a normal reaction? Or should I be looking for a more balanced "cheat" meal?

I'd like to thank fitnessman, dorian, tim, chi-town, and others for all of your informative posts on this diet.

fitnessman
02-27-2002, 10:10 AM
That "druged" feeling is exactly what you want.

What happens is your body is shooting out a whole bunch of insulin to deal with all the sugar(carbs) you have ingested.

With just the cheat meal its even a little more insulin than a balanced 24-36hr load.

Good job on the weight loss!

Original Poster
02-27-2002, 11:05 AM
That "druged" feeling is exactly what you want.

WOW, I thought I was having a flashback. LOL :)


cortezthekiller,

The first few times I did my carb-up/cheat meal I had the same druged up feeling. It sort of has ceased though. I think I may just not be noticing it any more.

fitnessman
02-27-2002, 11:13 AM
Cut back on the drugs Chi. and you will feel it again:)hehehehehe

Original Poster
02-27-2002, 11:41 AM
I think it was the SJ's.

The people who make them aren't even sure what is in them.

LOL

wabney
02-27-2002, 01:31 PM
Hey Guys HELP!!!

I am on my 9th day of Keto. I had alot of trouble last week as you may have read. OK I bought Keto strips last week and for the first time last night I tested positive. When i woke up this morning tested for keto- negative. The problem is I gained 5 lbs
instead of loosing, 180 to 185, pants are tight; maby it's water. I don't know.
My workout suffered last week but I was back in the gym Sunday, I will go again tommorrow seems that my recovery time has slowed down.

I am 5'7"
185lbs - now! ! !
42 years old
34 waist


Now remember work at night so on workout days I get up at 10:00am and hit the gym, non workout days 12:30Pm

Here was my diet for yesterday

12:30 Protein shake-40g,creatine, 4-0z slice of meatloaf pro-25g
2:30 2-Italian sausage's fat-44g,carb-2g, pro-30g
bowl of sallad - w/cheese and thousand island dressing
6:00 1-Italian sausage fat-22g,carb-1g,pro-15
9:00 1-Italian sausage fat-22g,carb-1g,pro-15
12:00am
1-Italian sausage's fat-22g,carb-1g, pro-15g
bowl of sallad - w/cheese and thousand island dressing
Protein shake -40-g, creatine.
3:30 am - sleep

totals:
Protein-180
fat-110 plus whatever from the cheese
carb-5 plus whatever from the lettuce

I just started taking the creatine about 4 days ago Maby tihis is the prob.

I will really appreciate any help! ! !


Thanks

Tim
02-27-2002, 01:56 PM
Yes, creatine can bloat the hell out of you. Maybe all the sodium in your diet (sausages) may be contributing to the water retention, but I'm not sure about that.

wabney
02-27-2002, 02:30 PM
Hey Tim

firts of all thanks

but I usually don't eat sausage's only maby once every two weeks . My diet mainly consist of lean meats...
but the funny thing is after I ate all those fatty sausages last night was the first time to test pos for keto?????

Think I should drop the creatine for now??

I know from what I have been reading that this diet works really well and I want to stay on it....

Manteca
02-27-2002, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Tim
Yes, creatine can bloat the hell out of you. Maybe all the sodium in your diet (sausages) may be contributing to the water retention, but I'm not sure about that.

while sodium does initially cause water retention, if you maintain a high level your body will lower this amount of retention to pre high sodium diet levels if you know what I mean. BBers in fact sodium load for like a week or so then completely drop out all sodium right b4 contest to shed tons of water, alot more than they would if they had not been sodium loading.

fitnessman
02-28-2002, 05:07 AM
Water retention and creatine go hand in hand...No big deal.

This is one of the reasons I dont recommend creatine for first time ketoers...It leads to a little confusion. But hey A little water retention is a good thing so dont worry about it.

That a good looking diet wabney!

wabney
02-28-2002, 01:36 PM
Hey guys thanks a million , I was getting confused along with frustrated. But as you said this is my first time on Keto..

I am on like day 10 still not enough results to brag about.
But my workouts are better this week.

I'll give it some more time and see what happens..

peace

Manteca
02-28-2002, 02:41 PM
I'm on day 6 of my keto, finally in ketosis as of today though I think I was yesterday. I've lost 6-7 lbs so far and look really flat but oh well, feeling good, no brain fog. I'm being extra strict so I expect good results. Thanks again fitnessman for all of your help. Also let me say one thing about keto diet, it gets alot easier to do the second time around, 1st your used to the feeling, 2nd you know what to eat. Not bad at all and no hunger despite 2000kcal diet, so far so good, could be the PPA though :)

Manteca
03-01-2002, 01:49 PM
I decided to carb load this afternoon despite my keto diet because I have an army physical fitness test tommorrow. What is the official word on this kind of cheat. I ate pasta, bread and a coke. all total prolly a couple hundred grams carbs.

andy1
03-02-2002, 08:22 AM
can a couple of you post your actual diets, 2 different ones would be nice, i dont think we all eat the same thing every single day.

feedback would be appreciated.

thanks

fitnessman
03-02-2002, 08:47 AM
Good thinking Manteca! I train alot of military guys, you did the right thing! Hey at 36 I can still get a 300 score(army) That run is getting harder though. I did 102 proper push-ups last time, 86 sit-ups and I was at like 11: something on the run. I am not in the military, I was an Airborne soldier for a few years.....Now I get to bust some ROTC *ss, great fun.......Good luck on the PT test and post your results.

Andy this is my carb up day, but here is what I ate yesterday:
7am post workout shake 30g carb 30g whey
9am 2 whole eggs, 8oz sirloin
12n 8oz chicken, 1 cup spinach
2pm 1/2 cup almonds and 2 slim jims
5pm 12oz pork roast, 3 cups salad with full fat cheese and dressing
8ish BBq pork rinds and some walnuts

cortezthekiller
03-02-2002, 02:00 PM
This is what I ate yesterday:

7:30 am - 3 eggs, 4 strips of bacon

10 am - beef jerky, 1"X3" chunk of cheddar

1 pm- can of tuna w/ two tbsns of mayo,protein shake, lettuce/cucumber salad w/ oil & vinegar

3:00 pm - 3 hard boiled eggs, 1"X3" chunk of cheddar, 1 tbspn natural PB

6:00 pm post workout shake 1-1/2 scoops of whey in 8 oz. cranberry juice.

7:00 pm 10 oz. steak, broccoli

9:30 pm - protein shake, 1 tbsn of nat. PB

stroudpr
03-02-2002, 03:38 PM
thurs. 2-28
protein fat carbs calories
5 sausages 13 22 1 254
2 eggs 12 10 2 146

post (40/40) 40 3 40 347

hamburger 30 28 0 372

2 eggs 12 10 2 146

venison 50 15 0 335
green beans 1 0 7 32

powder 25 0 0 100

totals 183 88 52 1732

Manteca
03-02-2002, 05:00 PM
damnit, carb loaded for no reason, it was raining today, well it was fun to eat that pasta anyway :)

andy1
03-02-2002, 06:26 PM
cortez, whats in your 9:30 protein shake?

thanks

cortezthekiller
03-02-2002, 07:17 PM
1-1/2 scoops of 100% whey (Opt. Nutrition) in water. I don't do this every night -- some nights I have some walnuts and beef jerky. I think for the most part whole foods are better (and I never replace more than one meal/day with a shake)...just some nights I'd rather have the shake. And when I do that, a nice spoonful of nat. peanut butter is a must...yummy.

andy1
03-02-2002, 07:23 PM
thanks for the reply, just because alot of ppl only take their whey post workout saying any other time of the day it should be a different type of protein like a casinate etc.

peace

cortezthekiller
03-02-2002, 07:39 PM
I'm a cheap bastard :). The whey and a multi-vitamin is pretty much the only supplements I buy.

Tim
03-03-2002, 01:36 PM
I got a keto diet question. Here is the situation: You go on a keto diet for four weeks and you lose 12-15 lbs., but towards the end of the diet your weight loss progress slows down drastically, most likely since you body has gotten used to the keto diet. Would it make sense to eat a moderate carb, high protein, low fat diet for a week or two, and then re-shock you body by going into a keto diet? When you go back into the keto diet after those two weeks, would your body respond to the "shock" with rapid weight loss as it did when you initially began the keto diet after a bulking cycle? I was considering doing this, and I was wondering if it makes any sense to any of you keto experts out there.

cortezthekiller
03-03-2002, 02:14 PM
Tim, I was literally just asking myself the same sort of question. Not because my weight loss has drastically slowed...I just finished Week 4 and loss my standard 2 lbs (after losing 8 in week 1 -- water loss). Mainly, I'm planning on taking a week off from training in about 3 weeks...and am also considering going off my diet for that week. I was wondering if this week off may actually be beneficial as it may "shock" the metabolism when I go back on??

fitnessman
03-03-2002, 03:07 PM
Diet is just like weight training bros, Keep the body guessing!!!

Trust me I love carbs as much as the next guy. There is so many ways to trick the body...Lately I have been doing 2 keto and 2 carb(weeks) and making some fine progress. The big problem with that is you have to REAL disiplined to go off the carbs.

Tim
03-03-2002, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I like carbs too and I kind of miss them. That is another reason I would like to do one or two weeks of carbs. I would like to be able to eat yams, rice, and cereal again. Well today is the last day of my four week keto diet and I am going to start the day off tomorrow with a nice big bowl of cereal for breakfast (along with the usual eggs). I can't wait. I really don't think I've lost any muscle in these four weeks, and I better be banging out a few more reps on bench tomorrow than I have been for the past four weeks. I figure I'll do two weeks of carbs and then go back into a keto and until I'm really shredded, which should not even take a month (my abs are clearly visible already).

Manteca
03-03-2002, 06:13 PM
Tim, I think your plan may be a good one. I think upping the cals to maintenance would be a good idea during those 2 weeks as weight loss always slows as your body adjusts to a diet. Also Carb load for your first day. Eat tons of bread and stuff. I think droping the fat way down would be a good idea too. Then totally shock your body again, drop the cals, and go back to a keto diet in 2 weeks. Sounds like a good plan to me. Also tim, I think you aren't going to be able to get much more cut at your size without sacrificing muscle. I mean there is a limit, just remember that. I mean don't cut too much cuz your at a point your going to lose as much muscle as fat.

Tim
03-03-2002, 06:37 PM
Yeah, the more cut you get, the more muscle you lose along with the fat. I'll stop cutting altogether when my sixpack is very prominent even when my abs are not flexed. I am almost at that point. But I think that cycling keto with a maintenance carb diet is a good way to both stay lean and prevent muscle wasting. Maybe it's even possible to slowly add some muscle without adding any fat cycling keto like that?

fitnessman
03-04-2002, 05:21 AM
I have added a bunch of muscle by switching back and fourth. But I must add, I do stay on a keto for long periods.

andy1
03-04-2002, 05:25 AM
fitnessman, would you mind posting 2 different days of your keto diet? id aprreciate it. Ive asked this before from others and i appreciate it guys, im just trying to get some variation.

thanks

cortezthekiller
03-04-2002, 06:56 AM
Here's the thing, Andy. Depending on body build, all of the diets will vary in regards to intake. Basically, if you're looking to drop body fat, you want to do this:

10 x bodyweight(lbs) = daily calories
Protein = 1 g/ lb. of bodyweight (1g Protein = 4 cal.)
Carbs = approx. 50 g/day (1g carbs = 4 cal)
Fat = remaining necessary calories comes from fat (1g Fat = 9 cal)

And heres a site with food counts if you need it:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl

Maybe you know all of this already, and are just trying to get a feel for what everyone else is doing, but if not...this is where you need to start.

Also, post workout shake 30g carb/ 30 g protien doesn't count toward your daily intake.

Which leads me to a question, I know we don't count the simple carbs we get in our post-workout shake...I haven't been counting the protein either, should I?

fitnessman
03-04-2002, 07:21 AM
Nope

Tim
03-04-2002, 09:11 AM
Would one week carbs and then keto be a good idea as well? In other words, would one week be enough time for your body to get used to carbs and experience a "shock" at their absence again?

fitnessman
03-04-2002, 10:09 AM
The best results I have seen have been 2 weeks keto, 1 week carb.

Tim
03-04-2002, 11:22 AM
That's exactly what I meant - doing one week of carbs instead of two and then going back into keto for two. The reason that I would rather do one week carbs instead of two is that I will be taking IT classes Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 4:00 for three months starting at the end of this month, and it's hard to follow a keto diet when you are in class all day. So I bascially want to squeeze in another two weeks of keto before the classes start. Following a keto diet for the past four weeks was really easy since I am unemployed.

wabney
03-04-2002, 04:19 PM
ok "Fitnessman"

Today starts the first day in week three of my " keto diet"
I still am on the same food regiment as I listed earlier on this thread just been switching out the meat products, but keeping the ratios pretty much the same.
I feel way less bloated since I droped the "Creatine" and my pants loosened up a little. The problem is I am still at 185, if you remember when I started i was 180. I don't get what is going on.
I have been dedicated to this diet and for the whole two weeks so far I only had 1 carb day, that was saturday I ate pizza.
Now for the rest of the time I have been strict on the diet.

Do you think i should start seeing some results soon???

peace

bigpoppa
03-04-2002, 06:31 PM
What is the ideal ratio of fat calories to protein calories when on a keto diet? I've been having about 20 grams of fat and 30 grams of protein per meal, making it 180/120 calories respectively. Is a 3:2 ratio of fat calories to protein calories right?

Manteca
03-04-2002, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by bigpoppa
What is the ideal ratio of fat calories to protein calories when on a keto diet? I've been having about 20 grams of fat and 30 grams of protein per meal, making it 180/120 calories respectively. Is a 3:2 ratio of fat calories to protein calories right? you don't go by a ratio, you need to take in 1g/lb protein 50g carbs (though it can be higher or lower depending on your carb tolerance, basically whatever it takes to keep you in ketosis) Then add fat to reach desired daily cal intake. For example I weigh 205, I would take in 205g protein, I like 40g carbs, that = 980kcals. I want a 2000 cal diet so that leaves 1020 cals. 1020 / 9 = 113 g of fat daily. Divide all these by 6 (#of meals a day) and each meal I must eat 34g protein, 7g carbs, 19g fat. Got it ?

fitnessman
03-05-2002, 05:15 AM
Yes, dont get overly hung up on ratio's. One size doesnt fit all.

Energy low? Bump up fat....

Recovery slow? Bump up protien....

BFC
03-05-2002, 11:58 AM
Because it does me. I am a competative bodybuilder and have always in the past have used the popular high carb, medium protein, low (as close to 0 as possible) fat. This time I decided to use the NHE plan which basically is Keto with a carb load (I don't like calling them cheat days because they are planned and psychologically I stay stronger by not cheating) every 3rd or 4th day (Thurs. and Sun. for example). The carb load is only for the second half of the day like from 3:00 on until bedtime getting a total of about 400 grams. In the geginning of the diet, like the first week, I went from 223 to 218 and looked a little leaner. Here is the wild thing that is freaking me out. Since then over the last 3 weeks I have lost virtually no weight but have gotten leaner every day! My abs are coming in great - intercostals and everything. And everday I step on the scale - 218! My bodyfat was measured by a professional with skinfold and has gone from 9.8 at the beginning to 7.1 10 days ago. I will have it measured again today. I have 4.5 weeks before the contest. Even though it is a good thing to maintain weight while getting leaner it is kind of surprising. Everybody, including the professional nutritionist at the gym, is telling me the keto is horrible for a bodybuilder because it is catabolic. The things he says make sense but I just can't argue with the results. Does anybody have an explanation or should I just count my blessings and not question it?

bb5-0
03-05-2002, 01:00 PM
Can you eat avocadoes on a keto diet?
I know they contain a lot of calories, but so do walnuts and almonds...

Tim
03-05-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by BFC
Because it does me. I am a competative bodybuilder and have always in the past have used the popular high carb, medium protein, low (as close to 0 as possible) fat. This time I decided to use the NHE plan which basically is Keto with a carb load (I don't like calling them cheat days because they are planned and psychologically I stay stronger by not cheating) every 3rd or 4th day (Thurs. and Sun. for example). The carb load is only for the second half of the day like from 3:00 on until bedtime getting a total of about 400 grams. In the geginning of the diet, like the first week, I went from 223 to 218 and looked a little leaner. Here is the wild thing that is freaking me out. Since then over the last 3 weeks I have lost virtually no weight but have gotten leaner every day! My abs are coming in great - intercostals and everything. And everday I step on the scale - 218! My bodyfat was measured by a professional with skinfold and has gone from 9.8 at the beginning to 7.1 10 days ago. I will have it measured again today. I have 4.5 weeks before the contest. Even though it is a good thing to maintain weight while getting leaner it is kind of surprising. Everybody, including the professional nutritionist at the gym, is telling me the keto is horrible for a bodybuilder because it is catabolic. The things he says make sense but I just can't argue with the results. Does anybody have an explanation or should I just count my blessings and not question it?

I experienced that exact same thing. By the end of the second week of my keto diet, weight loss was very slow, but I was still getting more defined rapidly. Supposedly you are actually building up muscle while losing fat if this is happening. Fitnessman mentioned that it is very possible to pack on a couple pounds of dense muscle mass while cutting with a keto diet!

cortezthekiller
03-05-2002, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by bb5-0
Can you eat avocadoes on a keto diet?
I know they contain a lot of calories, but so do walnuts and almonds...

Its not necessarily the calories you need to worry about but the carbs. I believe an avocado has over 10 grams of carb per fruit. Fibrous veggies are probably a better source of carbs.

dmcilwaine
03-05-2002, 03:22 PM
should teenagers consume more calories when cutting, because they have faster metabolisms and are still growing, would dieting actually hinder growth?

could anybody tell me if they drink milk while on keto, i drink about 5 pints a day, theres about 130grams carbs in that per day, is this inadequate for keto? should i drop the milk? if so where can i get all that protein from?

fitnessman
03-05-2002, 03:51 PM
BFC I am a nutritionist and the "nutritionist" at your gym is an idoit! To make a statement that a " ketogenic diet is catabolic" shows that this person is an idiot. Look at your progress and then tell me that.

GOD I have helped so many competitive bodybuilders(male and female) get ready for shows(not to mention the 100's of others) that kinda talk just pisses me off! Does that clown have a masters? I will soon.........If they dont know and dont know they dont know, they shouldnt speak.............GOD!!!!

Sorry for the rant, but people know where I stand on this issue.

Like Tim said, most manage to gain muscle on a keto cutting diet. The main reason is the body needs fat. On a typical bodybuilding the diet lacks enough fat. When you do get enough you get results like you are having.

A little avacoda is fine.

Milk needs to limited

gameover2002
03-05-2002, 04:56 PM
well you should drop your carbs to 20 grams for the first 4 days and then maybe lift it up to 5-10 grams altough u might feel weak but this is only temperally but u have to first depleteyour liver of it's store of carbs so ...kept the carbs low and you will lose not lest than 2 lb a week depend on how much wieght you have to lose..and btw do cardio it speeds up the process

BFC
03-05-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by fitnessman
BFC I am a nutritionist and the "nutritionist" at your gym is an idoit! To make a statement that a " ketogenic diet is catabolic" shows that this person is an idiot. Look at your progress and then tell me that.

GOD I have helped so many competitive bodybuilders(male and female) get ready for shows(not to mention the 100's of others) that kinda talk just pisses me off! Does that clown have a masters? I will soon.........If they dont know and dont know they dont know, they shouldnt speak.............GOD!!!!

Sorry for the rant, but people know where I stand on this issue.

Like Tim said, most manage to gain muscle on a keto cutting diet. The main reason is the body needs fat. On a typical bodybuilding the diet lacks enough fat. When you do get enough you get results like you are having.



I appreciate your passion and your support. It's hard to break tradition - like high reps for cuts, low fat while dieting etc. I can't argue with the success that I've seen so I am going to stick with it. It's truly amazing!

Questions. Is it good to consume the bulk of your daily 50 carbs in the morning or does it matter? As I get closer to the show, should I lower calories by decreasing fat, protein or both?

Thanks again.

mrhoon
03-06-2002, 01:04 AM
o dang this keto thing is getting maddddd popular aint it? lol >) a gang of my friends are sayin i look leaner.....and i'm feelin incredibly a lot stronger.....and i tell them about this keto and they ask "isn't that the atkins thing?" haha stupid question but is there a difference? i have no clue....but nehow....i feel like i'm gaining a lot more now that i cheat a lot more often.....i have like one small cheat snack or small cheat meal like every other day.....and i'm still losing lbs but gettin stronger....i dunno if that wud work for everyone but help urselves to a treat....it'z good for u psychologically~ >)

mrhoon
03-06-2002, 01:10 AM
yo....i was juss wonderin ur overall results since u started keto....i'm assumin i started around the same time as u, cuz while i was researchin this and preparing i think u were too >)....how many lbs did u lose? in wat muscle area did u get stronger and by how much? i want to maximize my results....so i would like to compare my results and schedule wit urz, thankz for ur reply...

bb5-0
03-06-2002, 12:28 PM
when you go for a week of carbs to shock the body , do you keep the same number of calories? of proteins (still 1gr/lb ) ? or do you eat more calories than during the keto phase and lower the proteins? what about the amount of fats?

BFC
03-06-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by mrhoon
yo....i was juss wonderin ur overall results since u started keto....i'm assumin i started around the same time as u, cuz while i was researchin this and preparing i think u were too >)....how many lbs did u lose? in wat muscle area did u get stronger and by how much? i want to maximize my results....so i would like to compare my results and schedule wit urz, thankz for ur reply...

Hey, have you ever thought about writing an ebonics dictionary!

UZ DA MAN!

Tim
03-06-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by mrhoon
yo....i was juss wonderin ur overall results since u started keto....i'm assumin i started around the same time as u, cuz while i was researchin this and preparing i think u were too >)....how many lbs did u lose? in wat muscle area did u get stronger and by how much? i want to maximize my results....so i would like to compare my results and schedule wit urz, thankz for ur reply...

I started my keto diet the first Monday in Febuary, and ended it exactly four weeks later. I lost about 15 pounds. Yeah, some of it was water weight, but I am clearly much more defined than I was before the diet. I can't tell yet for sure if I gained any muscle but I think I did. Sunday was the last day of the diet, and I felt weak Monday and Tuesday since you always feel weak the first few days of a dietary change. I'm quite sure that I didn't lose any muscle, and the fact that you lose no muscle on this diet was the reason I tried it in the first place. I think my legs have even gotten stronger while on the diet. I gained five pounds since I stopped the diet (all water weight in the muscles) and I look just as cut and vascular as I did at the end of the diet, and my muscles look bigger and fuller. I am easily satisfied enough with my results that I will only use a keto diet to cut from now on.

BFC
03-06-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Tim


I started my keto diet the first Monday in Febuary, and ended it exactly four weeks later. I lost about 15 pounds. Yeah, some of it was water weight, but I am clearly much more defined than I was before the diet. I can't tell yet for sure if I gained any muscle but I think I did. Sunday was the last day of the diet, and I felt weak Monday and Tuesday since you always feel weak the first few days of a dietary change. I'm quite sure that I didn't lose any muscle, and the fact that you lose no muscle on this diet was the reason I tried it in the first place. I think my legs have even gotten stronger while on the diet. I gained five pounds since I stopped the diet (all water weight in the muscles) and I look just as cut and vascular as I did at the end of the diet, and my muscles look bigger and fuller. I am easily satisfied enough with my results that I will only use a keto diet to cut from now on.

That's interesting because I think that also is why I haven't lost any weight in 3 weeks because even though I am definately losing fat, I feel that my legs are gaining muscle. Also I have inserted some bicycle sprints up hills that could have partially accounted for that - boy they hurt but what a pump!

Tim
03-06-2002, 02:17 PM
Yeah, I started doing cardio too (mostly plain jogging) when I started cutting, so the extra stimulation the legs get from the cardio might actually help build them up.

wabney
03-06-2002, 06:11 PM
Hey
I am on week three of Keto and as you probably read I haven't lost any weight either. As a matter af fact put on a couple of pounds. I am sure it is not fat because I have a mirror.
I will stay on this diet for three more weeks but i will add more cardio for the last three. Lets see what happens...


peace

brwnsuga
03-06-2002, 08:47 PM
I had the same problem, for about two weeks on keto, I did not lose any weight and put on about 3lbs. I stayed on and now I've lost the 3 pounds I put on and hopefully should start losing more soon. Also, I am still negative on the keto strips.

wabney
03-06-2002, 08:52 PM
Hey Bro

Through the last two weeks I have been testing with the sticks.
I test every day, some days I show a slight amount but most days >negative..
I think it is something to do with the fat intake.
Seems like the day I eat real fatty foods I test pos.

This is my first time keto, So I am still figuring things out

good luck....

BFC
03-07-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by brwnsuga
I had the same problem, for about two weeks on keto, I did not lose any weight and put on about 3lbs. I stayed on and now I've lost the 3 pounds I put on and hopefully should start losing more soon. Also, I am still negative on the keto strips.

The key to a bodybuilder is "are you looking leaner" not necessarily losing weight. I have had to fight back going stricter on the diet because I am not losing "weight" but I am getting leaner - much leaner - and that is my goal. If you are getting leaner just hang tight. Fitnessman says when you give the body enough fat, you can actually build muscle while dieting and that is heaven on earth for the bodybuilder!

wabney
03-07-2002, 12:45 PM
Hell Yeh sounds great. but I sure am trippin I have gained ten pounds since I've been on this diet.
I am really getting frustrated to the point that I am actually thinking about cutting back on some of my food intake.
But if I do i wont meet my daily requirements..

so wtf I 'm so confused, I don't know what to think

please reply???????


peace

fitnessman
03-07-2002, 01:31 PM
Is your bodyfat decreasing?

Sometimes people who followed a typical carb based diet all their life have this happen. The reason being that for the first time, you are giving your body what it has needed all along.

This is what happened to me. I was stuck for the longest time when I was aroung 30. I started doing some research on high fat diets and tried one(and hated it) Read some more learned some more, talked to other fellow nutritionist. The more I learned the more it made sense. When I learned how eat, my body responded by getting bigger, leaner, and very much stronger. Now I love keto diets for bulking, cutting, maintaining and even for the couch potato in all of us.

So I am going to have to say based on my studies with myself and some of my clients..That you are having results due to the fact your body is getting what it needs.

Unless you just went up 4 pants sizes:)

wabney
03-07-2002, 02:12 PM
YES it looks like i am loosing body fat I don't measure but I know my trouble spots and i can definetly tell they are slowly losing fat.
I am just so used to watching weight...

You know Fitnessman what you just said makes alot of sense and that sounds like exactly whats happening to me.
I am 42 now have been training on and off throught my life.
I would alwasy get to a point and get frustrated and back off.
But back then i never had my nutrition right like I do now.
For about the last 3 months I have really learned how to get my nutrition right and I am experiencing gains. I have to say it does look like I am loosing fat and i havn't went up in pants size.
But for some reason I am freaking out on my weight. 5'7" >190lbs
34 waist.
It could be i am just getting a little parinoid because i am not used to gaining like this. I am really liking the way I feel and I have to not let myself fall back in the same ol routine as in the past.

I am going to stay the course and see what happens.

So bear with me>>>>

Do you think I should cut any of my intake?? I have posted 1 day of my diet earlier in this thread. the other days are pretty much the same just switch out meats..

peace

fitnessman
03-08-2002, 05:31 AM
You are gaining muscle and losing fat, So your intake has to be good. The gains will taper off in time, just enjoy the ride. You know I always wanted to bench 405, never could until I was like 32 or 33 years old, and that happen when I changed to a keto life stlye.

Again I think what is going on with you is what happened to me.

Once your metabolism fully adjusts to this diet the fat will burn even better.

Harms Way
03-08-2002, 04:32 PM
I'm new to the keto diet and I'm trying to research it the best I can, so sorry if these quetions have been covered already.
The 50 g of carbs/day, do they all come from vegetables or are they complex carbs from oatmeal, whole grains, etc..?
Is this diet safe for a 19 year old?
Should the protein intake be 1 or 1.5 g/ lb of bodyweight?
Thanks and sorry again if these questions have been answered.

cortezthekiller
03-09-2002, 08:10 AM
I'll try to answer your questions, but if fitnessman comes on here and disputes anything I say....ignore me and listen to him. :)

50 grams of carbs can really come in any form...the problem with the whole grains and oatmeal is that they are packed with carbs in each serving. Off the top of my head I don't know the exact numbers, but if I worked whole grains into my keto, I'm pretty sure I'd be eating extremely small portions of these. On the other hand something like lettuce has so little carbs, that I can pretty each as much of it as I can, I can eat full portions of brocolli, etc. Besides that (and this is probably just personal), I think eating a little bit of the whole grains (oatmeal type stuff) would really kick in the cravings...then again maybe not in the extremely small portions I'd be allowed.

As far as I know the diet is safe for a 19 yr. old. Fitnessman?

Protein intakes it depends. 1g/lb is what I'm using right now to shed bodyfat. You'd probably bump that up for maintenance or (definitely) for bulking.

Harms Way
03-09-2002, 11:02 AM
Cortezthekiller-
Thank you so much for the info. I had never even thought about the small portions or the cravings; makes a lot of sense. I already eat a ****load of veggies as it is, so hopefully I won't have any problems adjusting. Thanks,
Mike

Mookie6770
04-03-2002, 10:00 AM
While on the topic on consuming neccesary carbs, i.e. a serving of broccoli.

What food is the best intake for carb and FIBER? I feel that consuming more than 15g of fiber is very important for anyone!!

Is Fiber One Cereal, or All Bran good?
I eat them dry, with no milk or I would presoak them in water and gulp them down.

Bulldog13
04-03-2002, 03:23 PM
Hey you guys, I just finished reading the thread, very informative.
I have used the keto diet before to lose 35 pounds. And consequently find a girlfriend. And found the 35 again =). Anyways back on it, and back to doing the intense lifting. I just wanted to post my typical diet in a day. (Note: times vary - my schedule is *ucked, so times are not listed.)

Meal 1: (Wakeup)
Serving of whey Protein
2 tablespoons flax seed oil
all mixed in a shake

Meal 2: Generally 2 - 3 hours after first meal and a run
Eggs - lots of them (scrambled and straight)
Prolly a total of like 5-6
(I don't trust the sausage at my school - looks carby)

Meal 3:
Can of tuna w/ a generous serving of mayo

Meal 4:
Lunch - usually a salad (lettuce and onion) w/ 4 chicken breasts

Meal 5:
Can of tuna w/ a generous serving of mayo

Meal 6:
Dinner - can vary - but usually few more chicken breasts or some hamburgers.

Meal 7: Before bed
2 Servings cottage cheese
1 serving of whey
2 tablespoons flax seed
psyillium husks (fiber)

Post-workout shake :
whey
I can not bring myself to add the extra carbs. I fear them. ;)

Any comments welcome.

jeffharding
04-25-2002, 10:09 AM
Hey guys,
what value does coffee have in a keto diet (good/bad) what are the options with that (sugar, cream, caffeine?)

Bulldog13
04-25-2002, 11:18 AM
1 carb per cup. Some people believe it produces an insulin response - which is bad. Like alot of things coffee on keto is grey. A cup or 2 a day won't affect you, just make sure you drink more water to compensate for it, as it does dehyhdrate.

jeffharding
04-25-2002, 11:23 AM
what about sugar or a sugar substitute?

Bulldog13
04-26-2002, 07:48 AM
Again, these produce an insulin response. Some people count these towards their carb total for the day even though they are technically not sugar. If you use one or 2 artificial sweetners a day you should be fine, but some people arent. You have to check and see your own tolerance.

Mr. Beginner
05-01-2002, 06:10 AM
Help me all the keto masters, fitnesman, dorian, chi-town?

I can't find ketostix in my country. How do I know I'm in ketosis state?
Fitnessman once talked about bad breath and strong urine is a signal for ketosis. Well, my breath is already bad even before I started keto diet. :D What is strong urine means??

Oh right now my bodyweight is 200 lbs. I take 200 gr protein, 80 gr carbs including post work out and 120 gr fat. total calories is about 2000 and 2200. I tried to lose weight to 165 lbs.

fitnessman
05-01-2002, 06:27 AM
Strong and real smelly urine is a sign.

That is a start for your diet. If energy runs low increse fat.

Make the 50g dietary carbs are fibrous ones.

Original Poster
05-01-2002, 06:28 AM
What country are you in ?
Maybe someone in your country can tell you where to find them.

I find it hard to believe they are not available.

You could always order on the net. Though, cost would be considerably higher. Just a thought.

I don't believe them to be a banned substance. Just a tool of measurment. :confused:

PEACE

Mr. Beginner
05-01-2002, 06:44 AM
I live in Singapore, I ask the drug store and they don't even know what keto is :D
maybe I'll try buy one on the net. thanks Chi !! do you have any links to buy ketostrip online? Thanks again

Original Poster
05-01-2002, 07:21 AM
Do a search on yahoo or google and type in "ketostix", they are everywhere.

PEACE

HeavyLifta
05-01-2002, 05:33 PM
ok through reading this whole thread ive learned this, someone tell me if im missing something thanks

-im 185 so i eat 1850 cals a day when i gradually lose weight do i also lower the calories?

-postworkout 30g whey 30g dextrose

-50g of carbs a day

-carb loads are for 24 hrs, im going to be doing them on the weekends since the last day of my workouts are on fridays, how many gms of carbs should i be eating, is the carb load just one meal, or meals with a certain amount of carbs for an amount of time


thanks

fitnessman
05-02-2002, 04:23 AM
For a load I prefer 60% carbs, 30% protein, 10% fat....4-6 meals.

Yes as bodyweight drops adjust intake.

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 05:00 AM
oh and one more thing this week since im dropping my cals this is my week off, should i be taking glutamine when i came up and before i sleep since im dropping cals or should i start using glutamine next week once i start doing cardio and working out?

fitnessman
05-02-2002, 05:36 AM
I only use glutamine post cardio.

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 05:51 AM
not even before you sleep? cant you go into a catabolic state?

and post workout?

fitnessman
05-02-2002, 06:17 AM
No. You will plenty of fatty acids to prevent that.

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 06:26 AM
oh ok fitnessman youve been great help, thanks alot

Anxed
05-02-2002, 06:27 AM
(was a single post, Im posting here to keep it in the mix)

I understand that Fitnessman does a keto diet year round... as, I am planning on doing the same thing.. is there anything I should keep in mind when going on a keto for an extended period of time (other than the obvious taking vitamins, drinking water, workout, etc)?

Should I take a break from it every now and then (cycle the diet)?

Ive been in the habit lately (after almost 3 months on a keto diet) of having a carb centric day every 2 weeks (thats a carb load.. not carb excess), should I do this more frequently on an extended keto diet?

any info or links would be great... thx

fitnessman
05-02-2002, 06:36 AM
Dessicated liver or folic acid is helpful for me.

I take breaks for vacations and around the holidays.

I carb load every week. Even a few beers during that period.

The more you get used to the diet, the more you will understand how great it is. On vacations of eating anything I wish, its still hard to shift back to a sugar burning metabolism.

Anxed
05-02-2002, 07:10 AM
this keto diet has really changed the way I look and live... I used to be one of those guys that could never put the diet altogether... now, Im actually looking more like a bodybuilder, rather than a powerlifter... thanks for all the help

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 09:58 AM
i know im still bringing my calories down to 1900 so i can finally start my keto diet and start working out again hopefully i get good results

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 10:11 AM
when you do cardio in the morning do you intake more calories to recover from cardio or you eat the same

fitnessman
05-02-2002, 11:45 AM
Anxed, I agree with what you said 100%. At 30 my gains just stopped. That is when I started my research on these diets. Lots of trail and error. Now I am bigger and stronger than I ever thought I could be.

I work out with a couple guys my age, serious lifters. They stay put, I keep going. I have been acused lately of using steroids. I havent. They just cant understand how someone who limits carbs can grow.

Heavy, I work out at gym at the university I work at. In the afternoon when I get off its packed with young grunters and screamers. I weight train in the morning due to that. Cardio after work with abs. I only do light cardio 5 days weeks, abs 4-5 days as well.

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 03:25 PM
fitnessman check your pm, also i took 50g o carbs in the morning and am carb free still can i continue with today as a beginning of keto or do the carbs have to spread apart during the day?

fitnessman
05-02-2002, 04:37 PM
Spread apart.

HeavyLifta
05-02-2002, 05:46 PM
ya thats what i thought, i told my mom to get sausage and she got these italian ones but they have dextrose so i should only eat them for breakfast?

fitnessman
05-03-2002, 04:25 AM
You have to watch all foods to be sure that not much sugar has been added.

HeavyLifta
05-03-2002, 04:58 AM
this morning i did cardio and took dextrose with 10 gm of glutamine, how much dextrose do you use with it, i used about 30 , is that too much or little?

fitnessman
05-03-2002, 05:46 AM
PERFECT!

HeavyLifta
05-03-2002, 07:03 AM
alright thanks, ive been actually feeling leaner after starting the diet its great

HeavyLifta
05-03-2002, 07:55 AM
about the sausage thing is has no sugar and 2 gm of carb but how can it have dextrose?

fitnessman
05-03-2002, 08:57 AM
That is odd....

Remember one very important thing. Any Carb is only seen as sugar by the body.

All carbs are converted to glucose.

karina
05-03-2002, 01:19 PM
hey fitnessman,

how do sugar alcohols affect a keto diet? i am not talking about the ones in protein bars. i am interested supplementing with inositol for its mood-brightening properties. however it has to be taken in large doses to be effective, something like 10-12grams a day. and since it is a type of sugar alcohol, i was wondering if that will kick me out of ketosis, and how it will affect my keto diet in general.

thanks

HeavyLifta
05-03-2002, 01:51 PM
what gelatin, cause it was on the ingredients for this canned ham, its really good plus whats the sodium intake on a keto diet before you start retaining water, the serving for the ham was 560mg of sodium and i had 2 serving which is around 1.1g is that bad?

Richie
05-04-2002, 03:14 AM
hey Chi_Town & Fitnessman etc, i've tried this keto diet twice before and screwed it up. i don't think i was eating enough fat. but after reading this thread i want to try it again. most questions have been answered but i do have a couple 1/ i've been using creatine for about 2 weeks. can i keep using it in my post-workout shake only? 2/ i've read so many good things about alpha lipoic acid lately so can i work this into a keto diet. i feel great on this stuff.i feel full & hyper but the fat loss isn't really happening as quick as i would like. 3/ increasing fats when low on energy is recommended but what sources are the best kind? i'm just worried about passing out behind the wheel or something.it's Saturday and i'll be starting Monday.Richie

HeavyLifta
05-04-2002, 09:54 AM
question 3 i can answer

unsaturated fats

polyunsaturated and monounsaturated

examples

nuts
olive oil
flax seed
peanut butter

Anxed
05-04-2002, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by HeavyLifta

peanut butter

mmm... peanut butter... that has been my secret "keto diet weapon".. well.. its not so secret, but its cool...

Harms Way
05-04-2002, 12:56 PM
I wasn't able to start my keto diet last month like I planned due to school and some other garbage. My question is this: I am not going to be able to lift for one week, so would it be a good idea to start the keto diet that week, then the next week resume lifting? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Richie
05-04-2002, 07:15 PM
i don't know a lot about alpha lipoic acid or keto diets but what i was thinking was when you are consuming moderate carbs you are depleting glycogen stores in the liver so if i was taking ALA (going to experiment with doses but maybe around 900-1000mg with carb meals) then wouldn't the ALA shuttle all the carbs into the muscle so you could still remain in ketosis? it would seem to work in theory but the only carbs i was going to eat would be juice post-workout and broccoli and spinach with my evening meal.i think with this supp (and like i said,i don't a lot.....yet) you could relax with the carbs a little more.Fitnessman,i'd love to hear your opinion on this.Richie

HeavyLifta
05-05-2002, 12:51 PM
bump

fitnessman
05-05-2002, 01:18 PM
Richie, The Eades Doctors speak very highly of ALA(Protein power life plan). They have the closet diet to mine, although I have refined it for bodybulding and to suit me. Their recommened dose is 100-300mg per day. I have not fely a need to add it my diet as of yet. Red meat is very rich in ALA and I eat a ton of it(this is why creatine does nothing for me as well).

I freely admit my jury is out on ALA and a keto diet. It is fact that ALA aids in turning glusose into energy, as of yet I do not see the point in taking it while in a glucose gylcogen deprived state. HOWEVER>>>>>>I just had a thought!!!!! It could be very helpful during the 24-36 hrs carb load!!! Hummm, sometimes this SH** just comes to me!

I will pick up a bottle this week and try it on my load that starts fri at 5pm and ends sat at dinner. My dose will be lets say 500mg to start. Will let you know how I feel.

Ritchie, dont feel bad about the first time you tried keto and failed, most do. Its very hard for someone to do it right the first time. Even clients under my guideance have a tough go the first shot.

xxlaura229xx
05-05-2002, 03:10 PM
Hey guys, well i was on an atkins board like this and they told me not to do the keto diet b/c it consists of 70 percent fat.. but so does atkins..doesnt it? Im confused lol. And I know that atkins is for people that are overweight..im not overweight.. but i do wanna loose some *5'6" and 135. I wanna be 130.. maybe 125.. But I am trying to make my stomach more defined.. and loose thw lower belly. And I am also starting an intense boxing class tomorrow.. ill prob be doing tha bout 3x a week and 1 hour to 1hour and a half a day. And I also use like light hand weights,.. 10-15 pounds. I dont want to look like a bodybuilder, I just want to get more of a tight defined body. Thanks in advance *laura*

fitnessman
05-05-2002, 03:13 PM
70% fat?? Thats nuts.

A good starter ratio is 50% fat 40-45% protein 5%-10% carbs depending on meatbolism.

xxlaura229xx
05-05-2002, 03:21 PM
lol i kkno.. i dnt think she knew what she was talkin bout.. can u give me an example of wha to eat.. breakfast..lunch..dinner on this diet? thanks so much

fitnessman
05-05-2002, 04:03 PM
1350 calories a day. 120g= 480 cals, 40g carbs=160 cals, 79g fat= 711 cals.

I am a nutritionist and this is my standard starter high fat diet. It has been adjusted for the fact you are female(I have had a rash of female clients, wish they were 135#. gettin some big ones)

As far as the intense cardio. Have 20g carbs and 20g whey plus 10g glutiamine(if budjet allows on the glut). This is a must and not an option on the shake that is. Shake does not count in calorie or carb counts.

As far as what to eat, hit the search key. You can spend hours reading quality info on the diet here.

Richie
05-05-2002, 04:14 PM
Fitnessman, that's a real good idea about taking ALA on your carb day. i will also do this. and here is something else i was just thinking that i'll run by you. if you take ALA on your carb day in large enough quantities then maybe you could streeetch the carbing up another day or at least half a day as the ALA will help in getting you back in ketosis faster. it's starting to get into the cooler months here and i have enough ALA to last me 6 or 7 months so i'm going to experiment with this.also, realistically i will eat a lot more chicken,sardines,eggs,cottage cheese & tuna than red meat so is red meat YOUR choice or is it a necessity on a keto diet? i've got some real good info and menu suggestions from this thread so hopefully this time i'll get it right.not sure who mentioned it but a "KETO" section on the board sounds like a good idea.also if you're looking for cheap ALA i got a whole stack of it from Kilosport at a pretty good price but it'd be cheaper for you.Richie

HeavyLifta
05-05-2002, 05:31 PM
today i barely had any carbs then i ate like 30 in one meal jus to get close to 50 will that get me out of ketosis or as long as i get 50 in the day?

fitnessman
05-05-2002, 05:57 PM
Ritchie, I raise beef so its a natural for me have plenty around. Yes I am going to chat with some other nutritionist at the university tomorrow and get more info on ALA in a glucose/glycogen deprived state and how it works on the load.

Heavy, shouldnt hurt once in awhile, but all in all try to spread them out focusing on veggies.

Richie
05-05-2002, 07:46 PM
Fitnessman, you raise beef........? can i move in!!!LOL. it's pretty hard to find a butcher here that sells CONSTANTLY good meat but i have found a place that sells chicken fillets about twice the size of my hand. (you get about 3 per kilo) and always good quality. i started my keto today (Monday) so i'll see how i go this time. i'd be very interested in your talk with your fellow nutritionists on ALA. regarding carbs, i was thinking about a salad similiar to Manteca (lettuce,onion,bacon pieces,diced chicken & cheddar cheese and maybe a handful of walnuts with mayo) as a meal and then some broccoli with an evening meal. can anyone suggest any other fibrous veges or other appropriate carbs i can add to this?thanks.Richie

Original Poster
05-06-2002, 04:55 AM
Hey guys good discussion, sorry I missed it :(.

ALA and carb load meals ........MMMMMMMMMMM.

Sounds interesting.

Actually, Iv'e been doing a little web researching on ALA and usnic acid when cutting. Believe it or not, there is not alot of practical info on either of these supps. Most of what has been somewhat helpfull, I have found on boards like BB.com.
I'm going to keep searching, but sometimes with this damn thing called work, I get busy (like now) and my playing is limited severly:(.

I'm interested in both ALA and UA for cutting and also in conjunction with keto. :)

Fitnessman,
Did you do the ALA this past weekend?
Any results or things noticed.

Richie,
This discussion has been a great addition to keto thread. ;)


PEACE

sietchring
05-06-2002, 09:59 AM
i did some searching but i'm still in the dark......

just how many g's of sat. fat is acceptable? and why exactly do keto' ers want an ample amount of sat. fat? the nutritional guidlines blah blah blah said something like no more than 20g sat fat blah blah blah if i remember correctly. whats an acceptable sat. to non-sat. fat ratio?

princessbigman
05-06-2002, 10:02 AM
i dont think it matters it wont effect anything studies show that your cholestorla and blood triglicerdies and all that **** go down while on low carb

Original Poster
05-06-2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by princessbigman
i dont think it matters it wont effect anything studies show that your cholestorla and blood triglicerdies and all that **** go down while on low carb


True, but if you want to limit saturated fats, then by all means limit them. Just make sure fat intake is high enough. What needs to be stressed when on keto is high enough fat intake levels, in conjunction with low enough carb intake levels to reach ketosis.


Also Good cholesterol rises and Bad cholesterol decreases for almost all when on keto diets.

I'm a person who limits saturated fat when on keto. (just the way I like to do it. :) ) NBD - really.

Hold the Ratios correct and tweak it a bit and just watch the fat melt away. LOL


PEACE

sietchring
05-06-2002, 10:31 AM
thats good to know. i don't have a very high sat. fat content but i am getting ample amount of fat through Udo's, Hemp Oil, and Olive Oil. Over all I think 2/9 's of my fat is sat. I just wasn't sure if it really matter. I saw dorian ( i think) post that keto 'ers made the mistake of limiting their sat. fat. I just don't know why that is a mistake.

HeavyLifta
05-06-2002, 12:54 PM
the mods should really make this a sticky has lots of info

fitnessman
05-06-2002, 03:26 PM
Done did!

karina
05-06-2002, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by karina
hey fitnessman,

how do sugar alcohols affect a keto diet? i am not talking about the ones in protein bars. i am interested supplementing with inositol for its mood-brightening properties. however it has to be taken in large doses to be effective, something like 10-12grams a day. and since it is a type of sugar alcohol, i was wondering if that will kick me out of ketosis, and how it will affect my keto diet in general.

thanks

bump my question... anyone who can answer?

HeavyLifta
05-06-2002, 06:21 PM
sorry karina but i really dont know, do you have to do cardio int he morning to burn fat or since our gylcogen levels are dropped all day anyway can i do it in teh afternoon cause its hard when i have school in the morning

Richie
05-06-2002, 08:59 PM
i haven't worked out ratios yet (i'm 6'1" and around 250lbs) but going more on a few menu suggestions i've seen here. can the people who have posted their menus please give their approx. height & weight for me to get an idea on how much i should be eating? so far i haven't had any hunger problems but i'm using an E.C.A. which is probably taking care of that.this is my second day of keto and did legs & abs this morning with 20 minutes cardio. after that i had pineapple juice,a spoonful of glucose (dextrose monohydrate),spoonful of creatine,protein powder and 1000mg of ALA and my body feels full. shouldn't i be flattening out now?thanks.Richie

fitnessman
05-07-2002, 03:59 AM
karina, I do not know. I will ask some fellow nutritionist. I havee a meeting with them today and have several issues for debate.

Richie, I do not flatten out much anymore so dont worry about that. 6'1" and 250#? You are a BMF! I thought I was doing well at 5'9" 218#. Heres what I suggest: Cutting right?

2500 calories. 250g protein, 60g carbs(adjusted for bodyweight)140g fat. This is a starter ratio and I have adjusted some for weight and the fact you are an advanced bodybuilder.

The carbs total does not count post training shakes. 30g whey and 30g juice post weights.

I do 2 a days this time of year and post cardio I use 20g whey 15g juice and 10g glutamine.

I really think save the ALA for the carb load, but keep in mind I said "think".

Richie
05-07-2002, 07:53 AM
Fitnessman, thanks for your time on this.muchly appreciated!! i think your right with the ALA as i did get crampy sort of pains today from it but i have HEAPS of it which is why i tried to work it into this keto diet.it's midnight here now and still feel quite full but a bit bloated and no hunger. i had no carbs apart from from some broccoli & lettuce at work tonight!!!maybe need a bit more fibre. thanks again for your help.Richie

princessbigman
05-07-2002, 08:49 AM
whats good for building lean mass on keto

Bulldog13
05-07-2002, 11:51 AM
Fitnessman, great thread.

But


Its a monster.

Maybe you should write a FAQ for it?

Thanks

HeavyLifta
05-07-2002, 12:31 PM
cardio during the day on keto have the same benefits as in the morning?

callmejakob
05-07-2002, 08:10 PM
i dont think this question has been answered in the board yet (or atleast how i am going to ask it).. so here goes...

ive been experimenting on and off with the keto thing, and i find it really works for me... but to be honest i dont have the funds to get some ketostix (plus im 17, so i prob wouldnt anyway)... but are there any other ways to tell if you're in a keto state?

i started up my keto plan on sunday, and today i found that my muscles were constantly twitching, i felt "weird" overall, and i noticed that about an hour after i eat my protein at lunch (1 can of tuna and some nat. PB), my breath tasted pretty different (not in a food type way), and i felt pretty hot all over. i figured these were all signs that i was in a keto state, especially by the breath because i read that ketones are excreted through the lungs and the glycogen stores are depleted after about 2-3 days.. and thats how long its been since i started.

does any of this make sense? are these all signs? i also figured i was in a keto state because ive been tired since i started, so i am gonna up my fat intake. but anyway... any help is appreciated.

Richie
05-08-2002, 07:49 AM
i've just completed day 3 of keto but at first i'm not going to watch my calories...probably next week. i've just been eating heaps of fat (good & bad) & protein.two things i've noticed since i started this, 1.i trained legs on Tuesday morning and i've almost completely recovered (Wednesday night) whereas i'm usually in severe pain for at least 2 or 3 days. 2.my libido has shot through the roof.anyone else notice this? next week will be the test when i back off the calories a bit.Fitnessman, should i let myself get a bit hungry on this diet? i've been carrying a few hard boiled eggs and some continental sausages around with me so when i get a bit peckish i just have one of each.is this a good idea or not?thanks.Richie

Richie
05-08-2002, 08:15 AM
Chi_Town, back up the page a bit you mentioned that you go easy on the saturated fats so what would an average days fat intake look like for you as this is probably what i will lean more towards as well? thanks,Richie

fitnessman
05-08-2002, 08:19 AM
I never allow myself to go hungry. I had 7 small meals yesterday. I do eat about an hour before bed because I weight train first thing in the morning without eating. The fatty acids left over in the blood seem to fuel the workout well.

Of course calories are always a issue. You will know by how you feel which way to adjust.

Recovery and sex drive has always been better for me on a keto. Thats why I just stay on it now:)

Original Poster
05-08-2002, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by Richie
Chi_Town, back up the page a bit you mentioned that you go easy on the saturated fats so what would an average days fat intake look like for you as this is probably what i will lean more towards as well? thanks,Richie

Richie,

I target 115 (45% of cals based on my BW) grams of fat on keto and try to average no more than say 25-35% from saturated fats. Some days less and others more. Sometimes I'm sure I'm even over 50%. :( I try and limit the sat fat but I don't get to anal about it. Otherwise it makes many days diets tougher to plan. I'd rather eat than supp my fat. I mean you can only stomach so much flax and olive oil, though I love olive oil. :D

bigdigiele
05-08-2002, 10:47 AM
Do any of you compete? And if so, im getting ready for my first contest in 11 weeks. Ive began to cut carbs and therefor overall cals, but I dont think its a good idea to rush into anything. Im planning on gradually decreasing my carbs. I have a question though about a carb loading day, how many carbs should you take in, and what kind. Today was my load day and I ate these carbs;
1) 2 cups oatmeal
2)1 1/2 cups brown rice
3)1/2 cup whole wheat cous cous
4)50 grams of sugar post workout
5)2 baked potatoes
6)none

Is this too much?

fitnessman
05-08-2002, 11:19 AM
Those are great choices for a load.

Original Poster
05-08-2002, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by bigdigiele
Do any of you compete? And if so, im getting ready for my first contest in 11 weeks. Ive began to cut carbs and therefor overall cals, but I dont think its a good idea to rush into anything. Im planning on gradually decreasing my carbs. I have a question though about a carb loading day, how many carbs should you take in, and what kind. Today was my load day and I ate these carbs;
1) 2 cups oatmeal
2)1 1/2 cups brown rice
3)1/2 cup whole wheat cous cous
4)50 grams of sugar post workout
5)2 baked potatoes
6)none

Is this too much?

1) 2 cups oatmeal (40-90 gr/cup) at 75 ...75x2 = 150
2)1 1/2 cups brown rice (25g/1/2 cup).......25x3 = 75
3)1/2 cup whole wheat cous cous .......................= 20g
4)50 grams of sugar post workout (should not count)
5)2 baked potatoes (4oz = 28gram) at 16oz 28x4 = 112
-----------------------
your approx. total = 357 grams

Depending on your weight, this may be fine. at 240 probably just right, at 200 maybe a little high. IMHO

As far as just before a show ? maybe someone who competes can help you on that one. :confused:

Richie
05-08-2002, 02:17 PM
Fitnessman, i've just read out loud to my girlfriend what you said about sex drive and as i'm typing this i can hear the wheels screeching out the driveway as she's heading off to the butchers.LOL i don't feel so bad eating so late before bed now as i'll be training first thing in the morning as well on an empty stomach. it's usually only a shake with flax which is seeming to keep me quite regular without eating too much fibre.Richie

fitnessman
05-08-2002, 03:01 PM
Richie, I really should not of said that................I just found out my wife is pregnant with our 6TH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Our family doctor said there was a one in a million chance of her getting pregnant again!!!

I am happy, she as well.

DAMN YOU KETO SEX DRIVE!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Original Poster
05-08-2002, 03:12 PM
You better get fixed otherwise you'll never have time to finish that book. :( You'll be changing the diapers of your 12 child at 72.

LOL

Seriously, fitnessman, Congrats.
Children are a gift. :)

princessbigman
05-09-2002, 11:51 AM
im going to be going on a ckd for a gaining muscle so i dont gain to much fat while gaining muscle i will for 2 weeks finding my maintence somewhere around 2000 i think it is then i will up to about 2300 and on weekends carbload with like fruity pepples and skim milk

anypointers you guys can add would be nice

fitnessman
05-09-2002, 12:07 PM
Potato, breads, rice are better options. Some Fruity pebbles is fine, but it is pretty much junk food.

However if thats what you crave, by all means have some!

jeffharding
05-10-2002, 06:31 AM
Ok...I have lost 10 pounds of fat, now how do I tighten up the skin in my midsection?

fitnessman
05-10-2002, 06:40 AM
Cardio

jeffharding
05-10-2002, 07:03 AM
should i do 65% heartrate cardio (fast walking) or intense running cardio?

fitnessman
05-10-2002, 07:21 AM
Depends on many things. The more intense the greater the chances of muscle loss.

I prefer to look at the big picture and not rush things. I do 20-30 min. of low to moderate intensity cardio 4-5 times a week with abs.

Switch it up, keep it interesting. I have 2 teenage boys and they love bike riding with the old man.

Just get the heart pumping, break a sweat.

princessbigman
05-10-2002, 10:44 AM
can you eat too little carbs?

princessbigman
05-10-2002, 10:56 AM
fittnessman you stay on keto all year round do you notice any diffrences in you physical appearence from more fats inthe diet?

fitnessman
05-10-2002, 10:56 AM
Yes!! Post training shakes need to have 30g carbs in them.

50g carbs through out the day. With the focus on low GI veggies.

fitnessman
05-10-2002, 11:03 AM
Differences??? Bigger, stronger, leaner, higher sex drive, less hunger, great blood tests and more.

princessbigman
05-10-2002, 11:48 AM
thanks for the info!

Richie
05-10-2002, 02:14 PM
Fitnessman,so this is child no.6? is this another thing i have to look forward to on the keto diet..........children? LOL!!! that's great news. cogratulations. keto is working pretty good. i can't see anything dramatic yet but it's only been 5 days with no carbs (or cravings) other than some broccoli, lettuce & onions.i haven't started a regular cardio plan yet either as i've wanted to get used to the new eating plan first but next week i'll do 20 or 30 minutes AFTER the weights.i read that this diet delays cortisol so will that mean i can train longer,i'd assume so but you're the expert heehee!!? i was thinking of doing keto from Monday through to Saturday afternoon (today) and then carbing up with the ALA through to Sunday night.Richie

fitnessman
05-10-2002, 03:33 PM
Spinach, brussel sprouts, califlower, snow pea pods, broccolli, radish, asparagus, all salad blends. These are all great on the diet. Alot of nuts are good as well, I love walnuts and almonds.

You choose wisely by adjusting to the diet before adding cardio! I dont mention that enough really.

It is 5:30pm here, just had pizza and a few beers so time for some ALA! 300mg tonight. 600mg tomorrow. Tomorrows load will be cleaner until 5pm then back to keto.

Richie
05-10-2002, 03:48 PM
BRUSEL SPROUTS!!!!!! oh my God, i think even starving people in the third world countries would draw the line at eating brussel sprouts!!!! LOL. thanks for the other suggestions though. next week i'll try some of these although i'm not really craving carbs at all. i was just going to add some salad stuff to my meat dishes and snack on saugages,eggs & cheese when i get hungry during the day or night. brussel sprouts.......(shudder)...............ugh!!!!!Rich ie

HeavyLifta
05-10-2002, 06:44 PM
jus did my carb load today bodyweight of 180 , 125gm of carbs. sound right?

HeavyLifta
05-10-2002, 07:39 PM
fitness check pm

princessbigman
05-11-2002, 11:57 AM
i got almonds and they got 5 carbs per with 4 grams fiber 1 sugar so these only count as 1 carb for keto purposes. correct?

fitnessman
05-11-2002, 12:11 PM
Heavy, On the load day 60% of calories should be from carbs, 30% protein, 10% fat.

Prince, almonds are a great snack! Yes deduct the fiber.

fitnessman
05-11-2002, 01:52 PM
Richie, Again this diet has to be looked at from a realistic point of view. The added nutrients from low Gi veggies and fruits are critical to overall health and well being. I cannot stress enough that this is not a low carb diet, but rather a lower carb one.

Just planted my brussel sprouts today...ummmm by mid august will have some tastey ones!

HeavyLifta
05-11-2002, 03:18 PM
i worked out today and i had no water at all anywhere so i had to use a drink that has 30 gm of carbs and i already had dextrose in my bottle already so i had about 35 gm of whey and max about 60 gms of sugar will that be turned into fat? anbd can cardio be done during the day and have the same benefits as in the morning, 20-30 min or 35-45? thanks

Dorian
05-11-2002, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by HeavyLifta
i worked out today and i had no water at all anywhere so i had to use a drink that has 30 gm of carbs and i already had dextrose in my bottle already so i had about 35 gm of whey and max about 60 gms of sugar will that be turned into fat? anbd can cardio be done during the day and have the same benefits as in the morning, 20-30 min or 35-45? thanks

Nah you should be fine with the carbs, once in awhile won't blow your diet. I sometimes use 60 or even 70 grams deciding on my gaols for that period.
as for cardio, beleive it or not your body does not know what time of day it is. I do mine in the evening sometimes after I workout.

Richie
05-11-2002, 07:46 PM
Fitnessman, point taken about the carbs.my girlfriend noticed my skin on my face was a bit irritated and flushed so i'm assuming this may have something to do with it.also when is the best time to drink water?before meals,after,during?i'm confused with this. i've actually just spent an hour working out my diet for next week with the added carbs and am looking forward to it now. i started carbing last night (pizza,ice-cream,popcorn and iced chocolate)and will continue today (Sunday) i read somewhere on this thread about the tired and "drugged" feeling after the carb meals.well, i got the same thing but about 30 minutes to an hour after that meal i started getting real hyper. just thought i'd point out that i also took 1000mg of ALA about 20 minutes before the meal.i have 500mg caps.could be normal for that to happen but that is what i noticed with ALA before i started the keto diet. well, i'm off to eat Chinese.Richie

HeavyLifta
05-11-2002, 07:48 PM
but people say that you only tap into your fat storage on an empty stomach

sietchring
05-11-2002, 09:19 PM
i'm pretty sure that applies to people not on keto since you need to tap glycogen first to get to the fat. That's why running in the morn. is best since your body has a depleted glycogen store.
On keto however, your glycogen store is pretty much depleted all the time so it shouldn't matter when you do cardio. Someone correct me if i'm wrong. :)

Richie
05-11-2002, 09:41 PM
can anyone post a link to a chart containing all the info i need (calories,grams of fat,fibre,protein & carbs) so i can get rid of all these stupid questions i want to ask. i've done a search and can't seem to find anything specific to my needs.thanks.Richie

HeavyLifta
05-12-2002, 04:34 AM
that what im thinking too sietchring

princessbigman
05-12-2002, 12:03 PM
fitnessman have you gained muscle while on a reduced calorie during keto on your plan

HeavyLifta
05-12-2002, 02:36 PM
ive been eating alot of honey turkey on my keto diet since its got alot of protein but for each serving there is 2gm of carbs and 1 gm of sugar, is that sugar bad during keto?

princessbigman
05-12-2002, 03:48 PM
i wouldnt eat them because ive read that sodium nitrates cause cancer also i think the glaze on it is bad for keto

princessbigman
05-12-2002, 04:12 PM
also is it feasible to take carbs before a workout?

HeavyLifta
05-12-2002, 04:39 PM
theres no need to, plus i was in keto and had the signs of strong odored urine and have been following it exactly the same is there and the smell of my urine is normal is there any way i can still be in keto? cause im eating 50 carbs a day and everything , i dont know what happened, and i just found out the honey turkey that ive been eating had less than 2% of dextrose in it and i ve been eating it for like 2 weeks is that bad?????

sietchring
05-12-2002, 04:48 PM
i think you're going a little overboard worrying about all of this HeavyLifta. it seems you shouldn't have to stress so much as long as you're overall limit is around 50. i'm eating turkey sausage like 3 times a day. it has 2 carbs, 1 from sugar. But it didn't stop me from reaching ketosis so i don't see why it would throw me off, so i'm not even stressed about it. You should get some ketostix and see what's up.

Buckyo7
05-12-2002, 09:04 PM
how exactly can you tell if your body is in Ketosis?

callmejakob
05-12-2002, 10:53 PM
bump on buckyo

i find that my muscles are constantly twitching, i feel "weird" overall, and i noticed that about an hour after i eat my protein at lunch (1 can of tuna and some peanuts), my breath tasted pretty different (not in a food type way), and i felt pretty hot all over. my breath also tastes weird (sort of hot?) after i go a while without drinking any water... i figured these were all signs that i was in a keto state, especially by the breath because i read that ketones are excreted through the lungs and the glycogen stores are depleted after about 2-3 days.. so is this right? are they all signs?

also... (to fitnessman or anyone else) would some diabetic drugs such as glucophage be beneficial on this diet? and if so, how would you use them?

HeavyLifta
05-13-2002, 03:53 PM
i was thinking bout eating steak today, you know how when you buy steak theres no nutritional facts to know how much protein, calories, fat etc how can you find out or does anybody know?

callmejakob
05-13-2002, 05:54 PM
heavy lifta - i cant remember what thread it was in, but someone posted a link to the USDA nutritional facts for meat... you may wanna look around through the threads for it, or do a search on the net.

Original Poster
05-14-2002, 05:11 AM
brussel sprouts - MMMMMMMMMMM.

Where's mine. LOL

Richie,
You should really try them. I like mine with a little olive oil and fresh lemon squezed on them.

Heavy lifter,
I'd drop the honey turkey and opt for the regular browned turkey breast instead.


Hey guys, just a liitle tip. Books that contain all the facts on almost every food you can think of and thensome are available on the web. Try amazon or barnes and noble.

I have one of these books at my desk at work and you'd be supprised how ofter I use it as I add new and exciting foods to my diet. Keto or not, I like to know what I am eating now, unlike when I didn't care about my nutrition.

PEACE

bandar8338
05-14-2002, 12:54 PM
I'm thinking of starting a keto diet sometime in the near future, but had a couple of questions. First, for the post-workout meal of 30g protein/30g dextrose, is a protein shake with 16 oz. of skim milk appropriate? The powder has 17.5g whey protein per serving and 2 g carbs, so with the 16 oz of milk and one scoop it would be 33.5 g protein and 26g carbs (does milk have dextrose)? If not, where should i get the dextrose from? Also, is this a good day's diet?

Meal 1 (Post workout): protein shake (from above)
Meal 2: a few slices of turkey and some lettuce
Meal 3: cashews or almonds and a protein shake with water
Meal 4: 2 grilled chicken breasts with a salad
Meal 5: peanut butter
Meal 6: protein shake with water

I don't eat beef (I'm Hindu), and eggs take too long to make for me and my college student schedule. Would what I described be good enough for a day?

Thanks a lot everybody, this topic helped me learn a lot.

HeavyLifta
05-14-2002, 02:38 PM
cause i bought alot of honet turkey but i can finish it in about a week, is it that bad if i eat them? next week ill make sure to get regular turkey?

stroudpr
05-14-2002, 03:34 PM
bandar8338,

you definitely don't want milk post workout, it digests much too slowly. Use dextrose if possible, if not just use juice mixed with your whey.

jeffharding
05-15-2002, 06:36 AM
I have 3 days until my contest. I carbed up on sunday and have been lifting high reps mon and tues with 50g carbs. I feel real tired. Should I carb up again before the contest? or should I try to get as far in to ketosis as possible. I have heard both. I will reduce my sodium, water and training on thurs and fri. My main concern is the carbs, I dont feel tight or full like I should. And I am not familiar with how carbing up affects me. Someone help please!!

chrisg
05-15-2002, 06:47 AM
I've just started looking into keto diets today. I'm assuming that this diet (from a body building perspective) would only be used for cutting up and never for maintaining or gaining weight. Is this correct?

Also I'm guessing you wouldn't want to do it for too long as you're basically putting your body into starvation mode?

Any input would be appreciated as I've been thinking about trying this diet.

xxlaura229xx
05-15-2002, 01:47 PM
yeah but see i dont get this diet then. Ok ive been on the keto diet to loose weight.. im 5'6" and 138... I wanna be about 128.. but if i loose the weight.. shud i still continue... b/c if I stop I will Just gain the weight back. what should i do? thanks! Laura

princessbigman
05-15-2002, 05:08 PM
overall its a healthier lifestyle

i cant seem to break this "carb addiction" and i seem to be going off all the time now

im up to 174 now

got to get back in line! i need more dedication im going to do it now tho

princessbigman
05-15-2002, 06:24 PM
Hello

I was wondering if the addition to creatine to my post work out shake would be useful

Dorian
05-15-2002, 06:55 PM
actually you can stay on a keto diet year round. You up the fats and protein to bulk and then cut again. it is really simple. I sent a few articles in but they are in the wrong format so they should be on this weekend about bulking and all,
as for creatine, you can use it but it doesn't make sense due to the amonut of creatine in the meats ou will consume. So jsut use it on your carb up days.

princessbigman
05-16-2002, 03:30 PM
cant wait to read them

princessbigman
05-16-2002, 04:06 PM
i was on the internet too much and i found this site informative so i decided to post it

http://www.insulin-pumpers.org/howto/pfandbs.html#toc4

replay_boy
05-16-2002, 08:25 PM
i need help.....i am planning to go on a keto diet but i dont know where to start..
i work out 4 days a week, and my workout consists of high rep low weight weight training.
can some one help me with setting up a keto program??
thanks alot

Original Poster
05-17-2002, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by replay_boy
i need help.....i am planning to go on a keto diet but i dont know where to start..
i work out 4 days a week, and my workout consists of high rep low weight weight training.
can some one help me with setting up a keto program??
thanks alot

There is alot of info on keto on this site as you may have already seen. If not, use the search button and read. There quite a few keto heads here and if you ask specific questions, you will get specific answers.:)

a place to start........http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/dorian6.htm

PEACE

Manteca
05-17-2002, 11:31 AM
I've been gaining alot of mass lately, very little fat but some. I'd like to get my abs back in check. I'm going to try this diet I will explain in 1 sec. It's a keto diet slightly modified. It's kind of phucked up nutrition wise but but I take plenty of vitamins, liver tabs etc... and I will only be on this for 2 weeks.

I'm close to 220 right now 5'9" probably 10-11%bf. I will be eating a (please don't laugh)... string cheese diet. I've found that a certain kind of string cheese provides the exact amount of nutrients per certain # of sticks that I will ideally take in on a keto. In the past I've wavered a bit in the tightness of my keto diets. with this there is no meal prep. I will be using appetite suppresants to help with that. I will take 6 servings a day each w/ 35g protein, 22g fat, & 7g carbs. This provides a total of ~2200 kcals a day. On top of this I will be using a pre-during-post workout shake which consist of 45g whey (various forms) 5g glutamine, 85g carbs (50/50 dextrose/malto) 5 g creatine all taken w/ 3-600mg ALA (haven't decided yet, probably 600mg though). This is much fuller on the workout carbs than most diets, similar to an animalbolics diet though there won't be a special 2nd post workout meal. I plan to up the cardio a bit too. I will be taking the following supplements also:

multi
creatine
tricuts (PPA, yohimbine etc)
caffeine
maybe guggul (depends on when my order arrives)
liver tabs (1 w/ each meal)
UA (before bed 250mg)
T2
zinc gluconate of course

I feel if I follow this diet exactly as planned I should make very quick and signifigant progress without loss of lean mass.

My workouts will stay the same as always, 2 on 1 off, a simple 2 day split (do not criticize my routine, It works for me) and aprox. 3 short bouts of cardio per week.

BTW don't preach to me about limiting my sources of food.

replay_boy
05-17-2002, 12:10 PM
the thing that i dont really get is....when you say eat fat, what do you mean?? what kind of food is ideal for this kind of diet.....

Original Poster
05-17-2002, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Manteca
I will be eating a (please don't laugh)... string cheese diet. I've found that a certain kind of string cheese provides the exact amount of nutrients per certain # of sticks that I will ideally take in on a keto. ..............
.......I will take 6 servings a day each w/ 35g protein, 22g fat, & 7g carbs. This provides a total of ~2200 kcals a day.

Manteca,

Would you mind sharing the string cheese you've found that has that makeup of nutrients?

I'm always looking for things to make keto even easier when life/work gets busy. Convienence can ge the key for many.

I like your plan and I wish you a great success on it. It looks damn sound to me. I think you covered all your bases nutritionally and as far as supps go.

PEACE

bandar8338
05-17-2002, 09:38 PM
I was looking around www.bodybuilding.com the other day, and they have a whole line of 'keto' products, different foods that are really low in carbs and supposedly taste pretty good. Has anybody tried these? Do they taste any good at all? Are they worth the cost? I'm interested in a keto diet, and was wondering if these might help me cut down my carbs. Thanks alot.

Manteca
05-18-2002, 05:14 PM
sargento, it cost me about 6 bucks a day to eat. Very reasonable. In the future I might drive to sams and see if I can get a big pack there. The cheese has per 28g (1 stick) serving 5g fat, 8g protein & 1g carbs. It's a little low on the carbs but not too much. Its hard to ask for better. In the end I decided on taking 4 sticks 6X per day. That mean 20g fat, 32g protein & 4g carbs. I am not worrying about carbs being so low since overall their small presence in each meal is offset by the huge amount of post workout carbs. I am expecting alot from this diet. So far it has been very easy to follow. The fat really is very filling despite its' density. I am not hungry at all.

Manteca
05-18-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by replay_boy
the thing that i dont really get is....when you say eat fat, what do you mean?? what kind of food is ideal for this kind of diet.....

beef, chicken, cheese, pork, basically all meats. You need to take in alot of fat but with very very little carbs. Sounds odd at first but the science behind it is sound and the effects well studied. Ketogenic diets are quickly becoming considered the most effective fat loss diets out there. The kind of fat is of little consequence.

Richie
05-19-2002, 01:39 AM
i definately agree. i've only been doing this now for 2 weeks and my appetite, which is usually ravenous (and i mean RAVENOUS) has just gone. normally i eat from 7 to 9 times during the day and on this keto diet i'm struggling to put away 5 meals plus my post-workout shake.today was my last day of carb-up and i ate 3 small meals.oats.pancakes and pasta and now i'm off to bed.i'm going to spend the next 2 weeks fine tuning this as i haven't been watching calories at all.i'm also going to buy a big freezer and stock up on meat,chicken,mince etc.Richie

replay_boy
05-19-2002, 12:24 PM
thanks alot....what about this carb up day that i keep on reading about? can u hook me up with some info on it..........thanx

swole rosco
05-20-2002, 03:59 AM
Fitnessman, Chi, or other Keto experts,

I am 195 lbs., 6' 1'', For a cutting keto diet I understand that you must go 10 cal per lb of body weight but I have adjusted my diet for 1900 cal., (allow room for error). wondering if you could critique my diet and see if anything needs to be fixed. Thanks.

Avg. per Meal Split (271 Cal, 29g P, 6g C, 15g F)

Meal 1
1 Lean Turkey Burger
1 slice of Cheese
12 leaves of Lettuce

Meal 2
1 Lean Turkey Burger
1 Tbsp Peanut Butter (regular not natural)
1 slice of Cheese

Meal 3
1 Tbsp Peanut Butter
2 oz. Turkey
1 cup Broccoli
1 Whole Egg

Meal 4
1 oz. Mixed Nuts
6 Egg Whites

Meal 5
1 Lean Turkey Burger
1 slice of Cheese
6 leaves of Lettuce

Meal 6
1 can of Tuna in water
1 Tbsp Mayo
1 cup Broccoli

Meal 7
1 can Tuna in water
1 Tbsp Mayo
12 leaves of Lettuce

Daily Total = 1900 Cal, 200g P (42%), 41g C (8%), 107.5g F (50%)

P / W Shake (not counted in daily total)
1.5 Scoops of Protein
8 oz. Minute Maid Fruit Punch (31 g of carbs, all sugar)

P / W Total = 315 Cal, 31.5g P, 38.5g C, 3.75g F


Also,

1. When you talk about consuming 50 g of carbs is that 50 g of carbs after fiber has been deducted or before?

2. When going on a Keto split of 2 weeks Keto and 1 week Carb does this mean strict 14 days of keto with no cheat days and then 7 days carb (60% C, 30% P, 10% F while still keeping same 1900 cal intake), then repeat, etc.?

3. When on a straight keto diet (not cycled like above), would it be more beneficial to restrict cheat days until you feel that you needed one, or is it necessary to have a cheat day once a week for insulin spike reasons?

3. Fitnessman, I read on an earlier post that you were on Lipoderm, I was wondering if you experienced any water retention because of the yohimbine hcl, even while on keto?

4. Would taking Chromium on a keto diet be beneficial?

5. At 195 lbs., what would be the recommended dosage of ALA on cheat days, and is it taken all at once, or split up over say 3 servings?

6. I heard Fitnessman, mention green tea extract while on keto, I was just wondering what was the purpose of it, extra fat burning properties?

Sorry about the long post, I just wanna try and get a hang of this keto thing (its pretty intriguing), and try and do it right the first time. Thanks again.

Original Poster
05-20-2002, 06:09 AM
Thanks manteca,
I think I'll incorporate this string cheese next keto. :D

Starting in a few weeks.

I'm actually considering staying keto for most of the rest of the year. Though I will probably go a few weeks here and there out of ketosis (just out of ketosis, still lower carb).

I'm planning on going a month or two and then having blood work done just to confirm first hand what I already know.

PEACE

Buckyo7
05-21-2002, 07:23 PM
i got the damn ketosticks and its been 2 days of no carbs...why am i still not in ketosis? mabey im reading it wrong

HeavyLifta
05-21-2002, 07:49 PM
well first of all you need some carbs just a low amount
bad breath, bad smelling urine are signs of ketosis, it takes time to deplete your glycogen levels

Original Poster
05-22-2002, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by HeavyLifta
well first of all you need some carbs just a low amount
bad breath, bad smelling urine are signs of ketosis, it takes time to deplete your glycogen levels

Heavylifta is correct. Depending on your training, it may take a few days to deplete the glycogen stores. Maybe you have a huge storage of glycogen. LOL.

Give it a few more days. Watch for hidden carbs like glycerine.
Count all those carbs man, they can add up quick.

PEACE

HeavyLifta
05-22-2002, 03:42 PM
i cant wait til friday so i can carb up, im dying for this mad good burrito i make with cheese, breaded chicken and ranch sauce hmmm lol

Manteca
05-23-2002, 04:06 PM
despite taking in 85g carbs post workout and having one carb heavy cheat meal I am in ketosis. I am taking ALA. Only trace amounts of ketones are present. Despite this diet I have actually gained a small amount of strength. I'm still not hungry. I'm down about 7-8lbs from water mostly.

Richie
05-23-2002, 04:42 PM
Manteca,when and how much ALA are you using? i've been using it on weekend carb-ups but i have a stockpile of it so i was thinking about sqeezing it into my week day keto meals as well.Richie

HeavyLifta
05-24-2002, 10:22 AM
today im carb loading and i did cardio in the morning, im going to workout in the afternoon and ive eatin around 120 gm of carbs and i eat 270 during the whole carb load, after i workout does the 120 gms of carbs leave and that i have to eat them again or do i finish the rest of 150 gm of carbs to get 270?

Manteca
05-24-2002, 03:18 PM
I have been spiratically using my ALA thoughout the day averaging probably 900-1200mg, I usually take 1 or 2 caps before a workout since it is so carb heavy. I also like to take w/ my fat burners.

replay_boy
05-25-2002, 01:52 AM
i am on my third day of keto and i dont know if my body is in ketosis or not, it seems like my body is gaining more fat, i am taking flax oil, and work out 4 days a week,
can anyone tell me where im going wrong

HeavyLifta
05-25-2002, 09:36 AM
well tell us how much you how many calories youre taking in, percentages, cardio etc... then we can help

ironlung
05-26-2002, 08:59 AM
When on a keto, does it matter the type of nuts or peanuts you consume? Are some better than others, almonds vs. pistachios etc., ?

replay_boy
05-26-2002, 10:18 PM
this is what i have been eating
7:00am - 3 eggs with one tbsp. cheeze whiz, and 3 sausages
10:00 - 2 eggs and 6 slices of bacon
12:00pm - a can of tuna w/ chopped celery and 2tbsp. miracle whip
(workout)
2:30 - low carb whey protein shake and one tbsp. of flax oil (24grms of fat)
4:00 - 2 celery sticks w/ light peanut butter
6:00 - 8 oz top sirloin

on friday i worked out my shoulders and walked for 30mins on the treadmill, keeping heartrate at fat burning zone 135bpm

Richie
05-27-2002, 08:24 AM
about the only thing i'd change is by adding juice to your post-workout shake and definately don't have the flax with it as it will slow down absorbtion too much. this is when your body needs nutrients fast so just having whey in juice seems to work for me and tides me over till i get home and have a huge steak covered in mayo.......mmmmmm!!!Richie

replay_boy
05-27-2002, 08:27 AM
ok thanks.....but with my protein shake i mix it w/ orange juice and fresh strawberries, when should i take the flax oil?? and do i have to do alot of cardio because id rather lift, i really enjoy lifting but not cardio

Richie
05-27-2002, 08:46 AM
i'm doing cardio 3 or 4 times a week for health benefits only as i'm actually happy with the fat loss that i'm getting at the moment.if you need to drop fat a bit quicker just go for a walk for an hour 3 or 4 times a week. my fat loss started slow but seems to be picking up the longer i go. i'm just experimenting at the moment (and having a lot of fun to!!) i train about 2 hours after breakfast (usually bacon,eggs, cheese & a spoon of olive or flax oil) then a post workout shake then it's just meat,chicken,eggs,cheese with mayo or full fat dressings and then throw in some broccoli or salad mix.you could have your flaxseed oil with any of these meals as well just not after your workout.i don't know if i should be giving advice but this is what i'm doing and i'm maintaining my weight,getting stronger and the fat loss is noticeable.Richie

replay_boy
05-27-2002, 12:05 PM
thanks alot man........you've been alot of help

Richie
05-27-2002, 04:26 PM
replay_boy, if this doesn't work for you then just play with certain foods (protein & fat) and find what sits good in your stomach and what doesn't and work out an eating plan around that. i posted somewhere before that my usual intake of food was split over 8 or 9 meals sometimes. since i've been doing the keto diet i'm having problems putting away 5 meals and even the quantity of food per meal has decreased. also if you're not using an E.C.A. stack then you may want to during the week but never on carb-up days (weekends)nothing fancy just a supp with mahuang & caffeine. Metobolift or Ripped Fuel by Twin Labs is a good choice and most things by TwinLab are standadised so you know what's on the label is in the bottle.don't get too stressed if it's not working just yet but it'll happen. just be patient.good luck.Richie

replay_boy
05-27-2002, 04:49 PM
today i just purchased hydroxycut, i am planning to start using it tomorrow w/ my keto diet, like the fat around my waist is really soft, softer than it was 2 weeks ago...but tomorrow is my carb up day.....so should i start it on wednesday then????

Richie
05-27-2002, 05:15 PM
hydroxycut is a good choice. i really found it cut down my craving for carbs but the keto diet is doing that for me anyway.DON'T use it on your carb-up day.enjoy!!if you're not already, you should take a multi every day as well.maybe add 500 -1000mg of alpha lipoic acid with each carb-up meal.Richie

replay_boy
05-27-2002, 06:45 PM
thanx...i cant wait till tomorrow, its my carb up day..im gunna enjoy.....thanks alot for the info.
it has been alot of help

replay_boy
05-27-2002, 06:47 PM
500-1000mgs??
isnt there only 50mg in a capsul...so i gotta take 20 of them???

Manteca
05-27-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by replay_boy
i am on my third day of keto and i dont know if my body is in ketosis or not, it seems like my body is gaining more fat, i am taking flax oil, and work out 4 days a week,
can anyone tell me where im going wrong

I find I look much higher in BF when on a keto, the benefits are not seen in many until after the diet is over. The reason for this is because when your muscles are depleted of glycogen all of the water that glycogen is holding in the muscles is also released. This 7-8lbs I lose in the first few days is almost all from muscle. It leaves me (or anyone else) looking very flat, almost deflated. After a good run of keto once you carb up you will look better than ever. Just have to ignore the way your body looks while your on it and focus on the positive effects to come.

replay_boy
05-27-2002, 08:58 PM
kool........how long is the diet supposed to go for????

Richie
05-27-2002, 09:31 PM
Manteca,have you tried increasing your fats? from what i can gather your body will go after protein (muscle) if the fat in your diet isn't high enough.last night i had 5 heaping spoons of peanut butter and 2 spoons of flax an hour before bed and this morning trained great (after several trips to the "mens room")and even feel quite full.i also smother all my meat with mayo and have cheese & olive or flax with them as well.i mentioned above that i'm holding my weight and there is noticeable fat loss as well. i seem to flatten out quite a bit towards the end of the week so i'm going to have a large pasta meal with some ALA after Wednesdays workout this week and see how i feel then. i think Chi_Town mentioned doing this.Richie

Original Poster
05-29-2002, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Richie
i seem to flatten out quite a bit towards the end of the week so i'm going to have a large pasta meal with some ALA after Wednesdays workout this week and see how i feel then. i think Chi_Town mentioned doing this.Richie


Hey Richie ("The Thunder from Down Under"),

Actually, it was fitnessman's . Credit where credit is due.

He was telling me in a thread about his carb ups and that he liked to do a pretty much just carb meal(complex) and that gave him a huge lift and pump. LOL

I'm having pasta tonight myself.

Back on keto in a week. :D

PEACE

Manteca
05-29-2002, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by Richie
Manteca,have you tried increasing your fats? from what i can gather your body will go after protein (muscle) if the fat in your diet isn't high enough.last night i had 5 heaping spoons of peanut butter and 2 spoons of flax an hour before bed and this morning trained great (after several trips to the "mens room")and even feel quite full.i also smother all my meat with mayo and have cheese & olive or flax with them as well.i mentioned above that i'm holding my weight and there is noticeable fat loss as well. i seem to flatten out quite a bit towards the end of the week so i'm going to have a large pasta meal with some ALA after Wednesdays workout this week and see how i feel then. i think Chi_Town mentioned doing this.Richie

My diet is fine, if you do keto right you will lose weight immediately, it is normal, remember each gram of carbs in your body attracts 3g of water. Say for example you burn off all your glycogen and it is 300g, you should also lose 900g of water making 1.2kg total. My point is if you are in ketosis you will not carry as much water in your muscles

replay_boy
05-29-2002, 09:01 AM
i dont think im doing it right........cuz i havent lost weight immediately, but today i just started hydroxycut w/ my diet, so hopefully id lose some........

HeavyLifta
05-29-2002, 04:08 PM
so instead of a carb load you have one meal with loads of carbs?

Richie
05-29-2002, 04:15 PM
hey Chi_Town, i had a mini upper body workout yesterday(Wednesday) (low-incline press 5 x 20, front pulldowns 5 x 20 then 6 exercises for shoulders,heavy & light & 30 minutes of cardio) had my usual shake then about 90 minutes later had a HUGE bowl of pasta with 1000mg of ALA, had a hot shower and the way my body filled out over the next few hours and at work last night was enough to tell me this keto is the diet for me. amazing!!!!

Richie
05-29-2002, 04:41 PM
HeavyLifta,i train around 9:00a.m. and this week so far i trained my upper body over Mon,Tue & Wed,had 1 carb meal,Thusday off and Friday A.M. hit the legs hard with maybe some cardio then carb up from Friday lunch (which would be post-workout) and all day Saturday then back to keto on Sunday breakfast.today is Thursday and my upper body feels really full just from the pasta yesterday. i also had 1000mg of ALA & 2 heaping spoons of creatine as well yesterday with my post-workout shake.Richie

Original Poster
05-30-2002, 05:17 AM
Richie,

Great to hear your doing so good on keto.
I'm going back on this sunday and plan on staying on it most of this year, except for vacation and a few weekend celebrations. :D

Try to get your post workout shake in quicker after your workout. I thought many were nuts for saying you have to have that post workout shake immedately until I recently tried it. It really makes a difference. I actually notice a fast recovery like from yesterday's leg day, which I hit so damn hard that I thought they were going to fall off on the way upto bed last night. And I'm off pretty much everything except protein. It's my every 3-4 month detox, I do - LOL. I cycle everything except vits.

I agree about keto. It is amazing. (at least for me :D :D :D)
The older I get, the worse results I get from a diet based primarily on carbs. Oh, well we all live and learn. The older I get , the wiser I think I get. (at least as far as what works for me)
I need to use carbs with caution and to my advantage, Not with the recklous abandonment many youger guys do.

PEACE

Richie
05-30-2002, 08:46 AM
Chi_Town,what i meant was i had my post-workout shake immediately after the workout (a habit i'm in now) with 2 spoons of creatine and 1000mg of ALA and then 90 minutes later had the pasta also with 1000mg of ALA.i've actually found the whole recovery process happens much faster. i'm getting sore the same night as my a.m. workout and the next day i'm pretty much recovered and ready to go again. i've got consistant energy during the day rather than the up & down that the carbs do to me and even my moods are quite steady.but the best thing is the fat loss and i'm just eating when i'm hungry and not counting calories at all yet.well,i got legs in the morning and then carb-up for a day and a half.woo hoo!!!Richie

Original Poster
05-30-2002, 09:32 AM
:D:D:D

HeavyLifta
05-30-2002, 01:36 PM
i always have a carb load from fri morning til sat afternoon is that enough or should i add carb meals cause i think my keto diets been slowing down, any advice?

HeavyLifta
05-30-2002, 06:43 PM
somethings going on really wrong cause i know im in ketosis from the smell of my urine, but ive been stuck at 175 for 3 weeks and its really buggin me, any help?