The BioMechanics Argument: Please Chime in!

[R3T3K]

Since I've been lifting, there's really been one thing pissing me off. The Squat. Despite having many people tell me I'm squatting correctly, I feel like I'm not. I typically don't feel anything unless I do box squats, I lean forward when the weight gets heavier (250+), but overall, I'm simply discontent, which leads to me not enjoy squatting.

My un-official lifting coach at my gym, gave me a bit of advice yesterday - switch to smith squats. I vehemently argued, since I've been told for years that smith machines are junk.

He brought biomechanics into the discussion, the fact that Dorian Yates doesn't free-weight squat since his body has proportions that aren't made for heavy free-weight squatting. He took out a tape measure and showed me something about the distance between my legs and hips being much longer than hips to shoulders or something of that effect.

I realize this isn't much to go on, but I was in between sets, in a hurry to finish my workout, and very much in the zone when he pulled me aside.

Cliffs: My body is not built for free-weight squatting. I should switch to smith squats. Biomechanics are very important for squatting.

Thoughts?

inb4onesentenceanswers.

[drewbie57]

What are your proportions roughly from foot to hip and hip to shoulder? Just out of curiousity. I wouldn't say I'm an anomaly but I think I have a slightly odd proportioned body and it affects my low bar squatting potential too; hip-foot is about 40" and shoulder-hip is about 25". To get parallel and keep myself from falling over, I have to drop my chest to what feels like too much.

I never cared enough to look into it, but I have thought about it too. You're not alone :)

[R3T3K]

Foot to Hip: ~38
Hip to Shoulder: ~24

Just used a tape-measure myself, so it's roughly accurate, but you get the point. I experience the same thing, if I attempt to remain upright as possible, bad things happen.

[mynameisuntz]

If you lean forwards, can you do more low bar to keep the weight centered?

yha2XAc2qu8

[drewbie57]

^^ are you saying get the bar even lower to get the chest up higher?

[mynameisuntz]

^^ are you saying get the bar even lower to get the chest up higher?

Not necessarily. Just a change in posture. He is saying he has issues by leaning forward with a heavy load, and just wondering if he'd try to experiment with a posture that places you a little more horizontal (leaning forward a bit more to begin with) and allowing the bar to be positioned a little lower. I've been adjusting to Rippetoe's suggestion here (first saw it employed by Layne), and I must say I like it much more.

[R3T3K]

Not necessarily. Just a change in posture. He is saying he has issues by leaning forward with a heavy load, and just wondering if he'd try to experiment with a posture that places you a little more horizontal (leaning forward a bit more to begin with) and allowing the bar to be positioned a little lower. I've been adjusting to Rippetoe's suggestion here (first saw it employed by Layne), and I must say I like it much more.

Hmm, I'll be hitting the gym shortly, will post up a set of regular squats and you'll see what I'm doing. I feel like mine looks like Ripptoe's recommending but it could just be a lack of strength then...

[mynameisuntz]

I'm no expert on the mechanics of lifting, that's for certain. Hopefully other lifting pros come in and offer their guidance, as I'm merely mimicking what I've seen others say.

[joelash302]

I will say this - you are not alone in this one. I have spent years squatting in various different ways trying to find the sweet spot for my form, only to discover a mild correction and have to reset.

[PerpetualMotion]

People with long femurs tend to have problems squatting properly but the way a taller individual or someone with longer femurs fixes this issue is by using a wider stance. Dan John mentioned using a goblet squat to help people with squatting technique especially with taller people, so you can look into that.

The problem with the smith machine is that it forces you in a fixed, linear pattern. When you free weight squat you are using a variety of muscles to stabilize yourself in space but you're never fixed. With a smith machine, you can get pattern overload syndrome, which essentially is the overuse of specific tendons and ligaments being overused from being in a fixed plane. Essentially, the machine controls you and not the other way around. That's why a lot of strength and conditioning coaches, especially ones with backgrounds in PT and what not, avoid the use of machines with their athletes.

Besides, you're only 5'10", so even if you're disproportionate it doesn't really matter since you're not that tall at all.

Lastly, there's no video so none of us can give you advice to see what you need to fix. It could be a variety of things as the squat is a really technical lift.

[foodpr0n]

Do you need to squat? Are you a PL'er?

If not and you feel you can't do squats. Jump on the leg press.

[R3T3K]

Sorry for the lack of video, I went in and recorded my entire upper body power day instead for my log. I will post squats tomorrow though!

@ PerpetualMotion: That was my original thoughts on smith squats too. Is it really that relevant though if you're not too focused on strength and conditioning.

@ FoodPron: I'm currently also doing leg press, good sir. It's not so much that I feel that I can't do them, as it is preferring to do it right.

Will post video and bump thread up tomorrow as well as look into what's been mentioning. Reps on recharge.

[NegatronPrime]

I need to learn to low bar squat because of the length of my legs.

But seeing as my knees are fked right now ive switched to occluded resistance machine training and will try sled pulls when my friend who works at the gym who owns the strongman type equipment gets back

[sawoobley]

What are your proportions roughly from foot to hip and hip to shoulder? Just out of curiousity. I wouldn't say I'm an anomaly but I think I have a slightly odd proportioned body and it affects my low bar squatting potential too; hip-foot is about 40" and shoulder-hip is about 25". To get parallel and keep myself from falling over, I have to drop my chest to what feels like too much.

I never cared enough to look into it, but I have thought about it too. You're not alone :)


^^ are you saying get the bar even lower to get the chest up higher?

Keeping the bar lower on your back will probably help you (just below the spine of the scapula and on back of your delts). Also not trying to drive your chest up as you come up. I would start at 40 sec on the video mynameisuntz posted. Also look at how Ripptoe squats http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVKEl4Wxoqc. He stays bent over for most of the squat instead of lifting the chest early.

see far right
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080618162125/startingstrength/images/thumb/8/8b/Squat_Bar_Placement.jpg/500px-Squat_Bar_Placement.jpg

Here is Rippetoes explanation for low bar verses high bar squat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC5-g1Ugmgc

He wrote a good article on squatting also: http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf


There are a lot of ways to do squats. It's a matter of finding what works best for you.


Edit: More squat videos: http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Squat_Videos

[JasonDB]

As other have said, find the form that works best for you, and give low bar squats a try.

Have you tried working up on front squats also? Front squats give my quads a deeper burn than any other lift, but they do require a strong core once you start going heavy.

[PerpetualMotion]

@ PerpetualMotion: That was my original thoughts on smith squats too. Is it really that relevant though if you're not too focused on strength and conditioning.

Strength matters even if you're not an athlete or a powerlifter or whatever. Lyle notes that the strongest natural bodybuilders are generally the biggest. You can get stronger without gaining muscle but it's not possible to gain muscle without getting stronger. In the end, you'll move the most poundage on the squat and it works the lower quadrant far better than any exercise. There's a reason why almost every lifter has it in their repertoire.

I also think it's relevant because lifting is inherently unsafe, so what's the point of taking the possible injuries from squatting and adding pattern overload injury to it? Seems pointless to me but that's my own personal opinion. A lot of people in the exercise forum (high rep individuals) believe in using the smith squat. To each their own.

[R3T3K]

Strength matters even if you're not an athlete or a powerlifter or whatever. Lyle notes that the strongest natural bodybuilders are generally the biggest. You can get stronger without gaining muscle but it's not possible to gain muscle without getting stronger. In the end, you'll move the most poundage on the squat and it works the lower quadrant far better than any exercise. There's a reason why almost every lifter has it in their repertoire.

I also think it's relevant because lifting is inherently unsafe, so what's the point of taking the possible injuries from squatting and adding pattern overload injury to it? Seems pointless to me but that's my own personal opinion. A lot of people in the exercise forum (high rep individuals) believe in using the smith squat. To each their own.

Ugh. Cognitive Dissonance is quite the filthy little whore.

[joelash302]

Do you need to squat? Are you a PL'er?

If not and you feel you can't do squats. Jump on the leg press.

Squats are not just for legs.

[PerpetualMotion]

Ugh. Cognitive Dissonance is quite the filthy little whore.

You're more than capable, I'm sure, to squat. We just need a video to see and everyone here will help you. In the end, it's worth doing the free weight squat.

[mynameisuntz]

You're more than capable, I'm sure, to squat. We just need a video to see and everyone here will help you. In the end, it's worth doing the free weight squat.

This. So what if it takes a couple sessions? Hell, so what if it takes a month to perfect the form? In the coming years of your lifting goals, it will be worth it. You're capable, you just have to train yourself like anything else in life, bro.

[PerpetualMotion]

This. So what if it takes a couple sessions? Hell, so what if it takes a month to perfect the form? In the coming years of your lifting goals, it will be worth it. You're capable, you just have to train yourself like anything else in life, bro.

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mynameisuntz again."

sadpanda.jpeg

[Lvisaa2]

Lyle has an interesting perspective - http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/squat-versus-leg-press-for-big-legs

With that being said, I think squatting is great for overall and coordinated strength, it just takes some experimentation to find the correct method that fits your body.

[R3T3K]

All right, videos as promised. There are more in my bulking log.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywhSL-e3ue4

[Ashlei]

In to see what others say now that the video is posted.

I used to love squats but am not feeling them so much anymore. Like you, I lean forward when the weight gets heavy because it feels natural (as opposed to because it's too much weight forcing me forward).

My hip flexors have started bothering me too. I've been trying box squats and front squats but still not content. :/

[Frotabaga]

Besides a minor depth issue, your squats don't look that bad. There were a couple reps where you broke at the knees before the hips, which is generally frowned upon, so just try to keep the "hips first" thought in mind.

I too suffer from the relatively long legs problem. Free squats are entirely doable. Low bar is your friend, and you will require more forward lean to reach parallel, it's just how your leverages work.

You'll probably never be an elite squatter due to the biomechanics issues, but that doesn't necessitate a switch to the Smith machine, IMO. I'd argue that the benefits from free squatting at a lower weight outweigh the benefits of Smith squatting at a higher weight.

(Also, Ashlei-do you do any foam rolling and/or stretching of the psoas and piriformis? They're nasty little buggers, and if you don't give them the attention they deserve, the can cause pain during squats/deadlifts/life.)

[Ashlei]

Besides a minor depth issue, your squats don't look that bad. There were a couple reps where you broke at the knees before the hips, which is generally frowned upon, so just try to keep the "hips first" thought in mind.

I too suffer from the relatively long legs problem. Free squats are entirely doable. Low bar is your friend, and you will require more forward lean to reach parallel, it's just how your leverages work.

You'll probably never be an elite squatter due to the biomechanics issues, but that doesn't necessitate a switch to the Smith machine, IMO. I'd argue that the benefits from free squatting at a lower weight outweigh the benefits of Smith squatting at a higher weight.

(Also, Ashlei-do you do any foam rolling and/or stretching of the psoas and piriformis? They're nasty little buggers, and if you don't give them the attention they deserve, the can cause pain during squats/deadlifts/life.)

This sets my mind at ease with the biomechanics issue. I prefer low bar, wide stance, feet pointed out, and lots of lean feels natural....just my leverages. I think I'll go back to that stance instead of playing around with closer feet or pointed forward, and definitely no high bar for me. Super uncomfortable.

I agree about free weight squats > smith squats any day unless it's an injury issue.

I foam roll it a little bit and was icing it a lot when it first started bothering me. Now I don't feel any pain when I'm at home or just walking around (I used to), and only a little bit of nag on squats. How often should I be foam rolling it?

Repped for the great advice. And will be taking your advice on the foam rolling. Thank you!

Forgot to say I do stretches after warming up before squatting (like I'm getting down on one knee to stretch it out), and between sets will stretch out my hip, then just general stretches after lifting. I probably should stretch my hip every day instead of just on squat day.

[Frotabaga]

I foam roll it a little bit and was icing it a lot when it first started bothering me. Now I don't feel any pain when I'm at home or just walking around (I used to), and only a little bit of nag on squats. How often should I be foam rolling it?

As often as you can manage, daily is best. For hip flexors (especially the piriformis), sometimes a foam roller doesn't quite get deep enough, and you may need to resort to using other things, such as golf balls, tennis balls, and lacrosse balls, to really hit the spot. (Warning: this will be painful. But, if you do it right, it'll feel great afterwards.)

Doing the stretches every day will definitely help. Unfortunately, sitting tightens the hip flexors back up, so you have to be fairly vigilant about stretching them.

[Ashlei]

As often as you can manage, daily is best. For hip flexors (especially the piriformis), sometimes a foam roller doesn't quite get deep enough, and you may need to resort to using other things, such as golf balls, tennis balls, and lacrosse balls, to really hit the spot. (Warning: this will be painful. But, if you do it right, it'll feel great afterwards.)

Doing the stretches every day will definitely help. Unfortunately, sitting tightens the hip flexors back up, so you have to be fairly vigilant about stretching them.

Thanks so much for the great advice! I'll start using a tennis ball to loosen it up. I love foam rolling in general...one of those "hurts so good" feelings.

[PerpetualMotion]

All right, videos as promised. There are more in my bulking log.


I checked out your other videos and there seems to be a problem but it's hard to tell what depending on the angle. Read this article on goblet squats and it'll help you a ton:
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/goblet_squats_101

Your bar only squat was much better in depth but it's hard to tell based on the angle whether you're pushing your knees out enough and if the knee is tracking the foot. Try and sit back more.

[Ashlei]

Christian, what kind of stance do you use?

[R3T3K]

Wide stance, brah's and she-brah's. Real wide, it's the only way it works without me toppling over under heavier weight. As well, my knees do not go forward beyond my toes, if that's what your asking. My main concern was depth. I'll post video of a 360 degree rotation next time some clown is curling in the squat rack.

I kid. But seriously, lower body Hypertrophy is this Thurs. I'll post them in my log and link you.

Thanks. Measly reps to you.

Edit: As well, I'll be hiring a national record holding powerlifter in my town to coach my Big 3 within the next month. I WILL PREVAIL!

[Ashlei]

Wide stance, brah's and she-brah's. Real wide, it's the only way it works without me toppling over under heavier weight. As well, my knees do not go forward beyond my toes, if that's what your asking. My main concern was depth. I'll post video of a 360 degree rotation next time some clown is curling in the squat rack.

I kid. But seriously, lower body Hypertrophy is this Thurs. I'll post them in my log and link you.

Thanks. Measly reps to you.

Edit: As well, I'll be hiring a national record holding powerlifter in my town to coach my Big 3 within the next month. I WILL PREVAIL!

That's awesome!

Yep, real wide stance for me too....toes pointed out, right?. We have the same weird body mechanics.

[PerpetualMotion]

my knees do not go forward beyond my toes

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-FEdiEdUua0/TCQPXws4HsI/AAAAAAAAATc/MkXCDi6xig0/s1600/500px-Squat_Bar_Placement.jpg

[R3T3K]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-FEdiEdUua0/TCQPXws4HsI/AAAAAAAAATc/MkXCDi6xig0/s1600/500px-Squat_Bar_Placement.jpg

phhhuuuuuuccccckk

brb fixing my squat

[LegosInMyEgos]

upload a video of squat, I am sure you are doing something wrong.

There is no such thing as not being built to squat. The squat is one of the least leverage dependent lifts. As leverages change, so can your stance to adapt.

I have no doubt your coach is a complete tool if he told you switch to smith machine squats. If you are lifting for pure hypertrophy, doing the leg press instead will not be detrimental, but you will attain none of the functional or strength benefits on a smith machine, it's an entirely different movement that largely disengages the posterior chain.

[R3T3K]

Video uploaded. Post #23. More in my log.