The Natural Bodybuilding Radio Discussion Thread

[bwelch1985]

http://naturalbodybuildingradio.com/

Since so many of us are spending HOURS of our lives on treadmills, bikes and ellipticals...I figure most of us in this section have time to keep up w/ the Natural Bodybuilding Radio podcast.

I'm a huge fan of the show. They have dozens of interviews w/ the best naturals in the world, they are NOT affiliated w/ one particular organization, they talk about the tough subjects (steroids, cheaters, beating the tests, etc.) and they put out a quality show every. single. week.

So, I'll start posting the most recent episode as a reminder for everyone to listen to it, then we can open up discussion about the topics covered (if anyone has anything they want to say of course).

Also, feel free to post old episodes you found interesting or care to discuss. There are plenty of awesome backlogged episodes and all of them are available on the website (link at the top).

Here's the most recent episode....I hope you all will give it a listen and open up a discussion!


Rich Fitter of the WNBF and Fred Rowlett of the IFPA!:
http://naturalbodybuildingradio.com/sanctioning-bodies/is-a-superbowl-of-natural-bodybuilding-just-around-the-corner

[str8flexed]

Mike and John do a great job. If you compete or like to follow natural bodybuilding this show should be on your playlist

[bwelch1985]

It sounds to me like the #1 issue holding back the WNBF and IFPA from merging is that the WNBF believes they alone can be the "IFBB" of natural bodybuilding and the INBF can be the "NPC." Unfortunately that's not going to happen. The WNBF just doesn't have anything super special to offer competitors that would boost their organization to such prominence. If anything, it appears the IFPA is a faster growing organization at this time.

I think if the two organizations agreed to be grouped under a different heading (such as the "IFNBB" or "NBBF" for example) it would allow them to maintain their independence in putting on their respective pro shows, while unifying their standards on drug testing and the earning of pro status.

Here's what I mean: In order to become an "IFNBB" pro, a competitor must win the overall at a sanctioned OCB or INBF show (or even certain NGA, USBF, SNBF shows). Those Pro-Qualifying shows could be determined by a board of representatives from both organizations. Once a competitor has won one of the PQ shows and earned their "IFNBB" pro card, they are free to compete in either IFPA or WNBF pro competitions as they please.

So, essentially the two organizations will continue operating just as they do now putting on their respective amateur and pro shows...EXCEPT they'll be under the same umbrella of drug testing guidelines and professional qualifying standards.

More freedom to compete for professionals, more incentive for amateurs to shoot for the prestigious "IFNBB" pro card, AND the possibility of a natural bodybuilding super bowl featuring the best athletes the sport has to offer.

What do you all think? Could it work?

[str8flexed]

in theory yes. in practice... it's not so simple

[bballbrett5]

I think that ignores a lot of the business aspect of the whole situation that is the motivation for the WNBF's policies in the first place

[baloo99]

I believe what's been said in NB&F magazines (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I don't pay attention to the bickering between the federations -lol), at least a while ago when Steve Downs was still at the helm, was that the real 'issue' is in reference to what is allowed and not allowed supplement wise. I've only competed in USBF and INBF shows, so I only know what their drug policies are.

S

[bwelch1985]

I believe what's been said in NB&F magazines (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I don't pay attention to the bickering between the federations -lol), at least a while ago when Steve Downs was still at the helm, was that the real 'issue' is in reference to what is allowed and not allowed supplement wise. I've only competed in USBF and INBF shows, so I only know what their drug policies are.

S

Listen to the podcast. Rich and Fred both make it pretty clear that the banned substance list would NOT be a deciding factor in holding back a merger. The only difference is that the IFPA allows the use of DHEA (which apparently has been proven completely ineffective at raising testosterone). Both orgs use the same advisor on which supplements to ban, so they decided to sit down w/ him and hammer out an agreement on a unified list.

Like Brett said...it's likely a business/financial issue that's getting in the way...

[wnbfwarriorpro]

Just wanted to weigh in on a few things without getting to deep into this. I did have a follow up discussion with Fred and it was very amicable and productive. We both agreed not to discuss specifics and will continue discussions on the subjects that were discussed on NBBR in an effort to come to a conclusion that benefits the sport. I appreciate the opportunity the John and Mike gave me to discuss this with Fred.

My comparison of the NPC/IFBB: I was not implying that the INBF was the NPC or WNBF was the IFBB. My analogy was to illustrate that their model of success is based on having unity. As fractured as the sport is, it is harder to increase prize money for athletes if six different natural pro organizations all go to sponsors as opposed to one. Having a uniform banned substance list would benefit athletes, as well as drug-testing. If you fail at one show, you would be ineligible to try an beat a test at another.

With regards to the banned substance list: In the INBF/WNBF, Redwood Toxicology does our urinalysis, but does not dictate our list. As with MLB, NHL, NFL, etc., we determine what is or is not legal to use in the INBF/WNBF based on information gathered from accredited sources. In the past, the exclusion of certain supplements has cost us both sponsors and athletes, but I truly believe it is in the best interest of drug-free sport.
By the same token, as evidence is provided to us on the safety of supplements once considered banned, we have allowed them to be used in the federation. A recent example is 7-keto dhea as the pathway to testosterone conversion does not exist.
A number of studies have shown that dhea does increase testosterone levels and that is a concern of the WNBF. I do feel it is an issue that needs to be resolved as we try to work together.

Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 May;89(5):1459-67. Epub 2009 Mar 25.
Dehydroepiandrosterone replacement therapy in older adults: 1- and 2-y effects on bone.
Weiss EP, Shah K, Fontana L, Lambert CP, Holloszy JO, Villareal DT.
Source

Division of Geriatrics and Nutritional Sciences, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University School of Medicine, St Louis, MO, USA. eweiss4@slu.edu
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Age-related reductions in serum dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) concentrations may be involved in bone mineral density (BMD) losses.
OBJECTIVE:
The objective was to determine whether DHEA supplementation in older adults improves BMD when co-administered with vitamin D and calcium.
DESIGN:
In year 1, a randomized trial was conducted in which men (n = 55) and women (n = 58) aged 65-75 y took 50 mg/d oral DHEA supplements or placebo. In year 2, all participants took open-label DHEA (50 mg/d). During both years, all participants received vitamin D (16 microg/d) and calcium (700 mg/d) supplements. BMD was measured by using dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry. Concentrations of hormones and bone turnover markers were measured in serum.
RESULTS:
In men, no difference between groups occurred in any BMD measures or in bone turnover markers during year 1 or year 2. The free testosterone index and estradiol increased in the DHEA group only. In women, spine BMD increased by 1.7 +/- 0.6% (P = 0.0003) during year 1 and by 3.6 +/- 0.7% after 2 y of supplementation in the DHEA group; however, in the placebo group, spine BMD was unchanged during year 1 but increased to 2.6 +/- 0.9% above baseline during year 2 after the crossover to DHEA. Hip BMD did not change. Testosterone, estradiol, and insulin-like growth factor 1 increased in the DHEA group only. In both groups, serum concentrations of bone turnover markers decreased during year 1 and remained low during year 2, but did not differ between groups.
CONCLUSION:
DHEA supplementation in older women, but not in men, improves spine BMD when co-administered with vitamin D and calcium. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT00182975.

Finally, if everyone can agree to work together, the sport will flourish and will will stop losing athletes who are frustrated with the present lack of structure. And that means putting aside past differences and power struggles. I do feel that both sides are willing to do this.

[bwelch1985]

^thanks for weighing in Rich! the interview really made it clear that both the WNBF and IFPA are interested in unification for the sake of enhancing the sport as a whole. i'm very excited to see what you guys can work out in your discussions and what kind of steps will be taken to improve the sport for future competitors.

[Landon12]

gonna start listening, feel like learning a bit more about natty bodybuilding.

[co1e_train]

I always forget about this show. Is it possible to download the shows to itunes? It would be best for me if I could get it on my ipod but I dont see a function to do that. There is a "download" button but when I press it just plays the show in a new tab on my browser. Browser issue maybe?


Good idea for a thread brit!

[wrkoutfrq]

I always forget about this show. Is it possible to download the shows to itunes? It would be best for me if I could get it on my ipod but I dont see a function to do that. There is a "download" button but when I press it just plays the show in a new tab on my browser. Browser issue maybe?


Good idea for a thread brit!
this, man Britt you are on a roll for win threads... haven't listened to it yet, but will later

[mrusa85]

Seems like there are underlying issues with a merger. It's more about the money to be made FROM the athletes. If a promoter can make more money in his/her own federation, it's to their advantage. There's no reason to merge. I've yet to see a promoter really put the athlete first -- other than awarding numerous "pro cards" at smaller local shows.

Attendance at natural shows is usually very low. Ticket prices are high. Athletes are encouraged to enter all the divisions (at $50 or more a piece), photos have to be purchased -- you can't have cameras in the auditorium, admission prices are outrageous (but they need to be in order to generate a profit with small attendance). It gets very expensive to do a natural show.

Judges hound the competitors after shows to offer their "coaching" services to they can "place higher" in the next show.

And who comes to watch? Pretty much only the competitors' families. You don't see many other fans who come to just watch a show like you would a local NPC show.

And then you get to the pros who are contracted with organizations and magazines without getting paid so they can't compete in any other organizations without being banned.

Sorry, but the that pro baseball analogy didn't even come close to be a good example. MLB PAYS their pro athletes LOTS OF MONEY. That doesn't happen to natural a pro.

Natural pro cards have become little more than bragging rights -- sort of like IFBB "Bikini Pros."

Lots of stuff need to be changed. And things like bickering over worthless DHEA are the things that are talked about first in negotiations for a merger?

A merger might be a good way to fix these things, but it'll be surprising if it ever happens.

[brademan76]

Seems like there are underlying issues with a merger. It's more about the money to be made FROM the athletes. If a promoter can make more money in his/her own federation, it's to their advantage. There's no reason to merge. I've yet to see a promoter really put the athlete first -- other than awarding numerous "pro cards" at smaller local shows.

Attendance at natural shows is usually very low. Ticket prices are high. Athletes are encouraged to enter all the divisions (at $50 or more a piece), photos have to be purchased -- you can't have cameras in the auditorium, admission prices are outrageous (but they need to be in order to generate a profit with small attendance). It gets very expensive to do a natural show.

Judges hound the competitors after shows to offer their "coaching" services to they can "place higher" in the next show.

And who comes to watch? Pretty much only the competitors' families. You don't see many other fans who come to just watch a show like you would a local NPC show.

And then you get to the pros who are contracted with organizations and magazines without getting paid so they can't compete in any other organizations without being banned.

Sorry, but the that pro baseball analogy didn't even come close to be a good example. MLB PAYS their pro athletes LOTS OF MONEY. That doesn't happen to natural a pro.

Natural pro cards have become little more than bragging rights -- sort of like IFBB "Bikini Pros."

Lots of stuff need to be changed. And things like bickering over worthless DHEA are the things that are talked about first in negotiations for a merger?

A merger might be a good way to fix these things, but it'll be surprising if it ever happens.

Good post. I have to say I agree with the majority of your points.

[bwelch1985]

Kiyoshi Moody

http://naturalbodybuildingradio.com/

Pretty standard interview here. Kiyoshi seems like a very nice dude. Humble, respectful, overall cool guy I would say.

The interesting part of the interview comes towards the end. The discussion turns to conditioning vs. mass and the entire panel pretty much universally agrees that extreme conditioning is overrated and they want to see more size on the natural stage. Kiyoshi even goes as far as to mention Alberto and J-Rod as examples of people that push the conditioning envelope too far and (in his opinion) sacrifice too much muscle in doing so.

I don't agree. If people want size at the expense of conditioning, there are a million NPC and IFBB shows they can attend. Natural bodybuilders will simply never be able to measure up to enhanced competitors in terms of sheer muscle mass. However, the natural competitor CAN compete w/ enhanced bb'ers in terms of conditioning and IMO, that's what makes it worthwhile to attend natural shows as opposed to NPC shows....to see FREAKY conditioning!

If judges start rewarding size over conditioning, I see natural bodybuilding competitions becoming virtually indistinguishable from LOW LEVEL NPC shows....a bunch of relatively densely muscled guys w/ only OK conditioning.


What do you guys think??

[co1e_train]

Idk man, I can see where your coming from on the conditioning stand point of wanting to see how freaky people can get but honestly I'd rather see some awesome size on a natty even if they don't bring a "freaky" package. In my opinion, id rather see bigger guys. I think some who go for the freakiness sacrifice too much size and almost seem sickly and have more of a swimmer's or long distance runner's physique. Im not hating I just think of bodybuilders being big first and not just super crazy lean.

[bballbrett5]

Kiyoshi Moody

http://naturalbodybuildingradio.com/

Pretty standard interview here. Kiyoshi seems like a very nice dude. Humble, respectful, overall cool guy I would say.

The interesting part of the interview comes towards the end. The discussion turns to conditioning vs. mass and the entire panel pretty much universally agrees that extreme conditioning is overrated and they want to see more size on the natural stage. Kiyoshi even goes as far as to mention Alberto and J-Rod as examples of people that push the conditioning envelope too far and (in his opinion) sacrifice too much muscle in doing so.

I don't agree. If people want size at the expense of conditioning, there are a million NPC and IFBB shows they can attend. Natural bodybuilders will simply never be able to measure up to enhanced competitors in terms of sheer muscle mass. However, the natural competitor CAN compete w/ enhanced bb'ers in terms of conditioning and IMO, that's what makes it worthwhile to attend natural shows as opposed to NPC shows....to see FREAKY conditioning!

If judges start rewarding size over conditioning, I see natural bodybuilding competitions becoming virtually indistinguishable from LOW LEVEL NPC shows....a bunch of relatively densely muscled guys w/ only OK conditioning.


What do you guys think??
yeah i listened to this episode a couple of days back. it's been a recurring theme on that show to express concern over guys with "swimmer's physiques" winning shows. i could see that, but certainly alberto would not fit into that category, so the argument that he dieted too far seems almost preposterous. i do agree with kiyoshi that, at its most primal, this is bodybuilding. when you've got a guy as built as kiyoshi, even if he dieted for only 4 weeks, he's going to be incredibly tough to beat.

[NattyFLEX]

Before viewing this thread i had never come across the Body building Radio, First interview i listened to was of course Layne Norton!
Great interview layne!


Thanks Bwelch for making this thread :)

[str8flexed]

it's all about the overall physique. someone who is 220 but with no hamstring/glute/back definition is just not impressive to me. the same way someone who is 130 lbs at 5'10" and shredded is not impressive to me. They are both not as impressive, but for different reasons. I always favor conditioning but that doesn't mean i'd always favor the most conditioned guy. I favor conditioning when most other things are similar

[MarkVI]

it's all about the overall physique. someone who is 220 but with no hamstring/glute/back definition is just not impressive to me. the same way someone who is 130 lbs at 5'10" and shredded is not impressive to me. They are both not as impressive, but for different reasons. I always favor conditioning but that doesn't mean i'd always favor the most conditioned guy. I favor conditioning when most other things are similar

Having been to an NPC state show and a natural state show in the last two weeks, I would definitely agree. So many polar opposites between the two shows...in the NPC show you have some really big guys but they look 6-8 weeks out from proper conditioning and then at the natural state show I saw you had guys 6'0'' at 160lbs, yeah they were shredded but Big ****ing deal, they have no muscle. Both shows had 1-2 guys that had an overall great package and the overall contest was close and rightly decided.

Do you see much muscle loss with your clients? you help them to get very very shredded, is there much sacrifice?

[str8flexed]

it just depends on the person. Typically we aim to limit muscle loss as much as possible, but if someone only comes on for 12 week prep and they need to lose 35 lbs to realistically be shredded, there is some muscle loss to be associated with that. I'm not a miracle worker unfortunately. however, how much just depends on a ton of factors, obviously someone who is a bit slimmer by nature cannot afford to lose much size. But I had one client who was always going to be the biggest natural guy onstage in almost any show he walked into, but he always had trouble getting shredded. We sacrificed some size and fullness to get him tight enough, but he had enough surplus that it didn't matter, he could afford to lose a bit of size in exchange for conditioning, but everyone's metabolism & situation is different and has to be treated as such.

[AjarnD]

Kiyoshi Moody

The discussion turns to conditioning vs. mass and the entire panel pretty much universally agrees that extreme conditioning is overrated and they want to see more size on the natural stage. Kiyoshi even goes as far as to mention Alberto and J-Rod as examples of people that push the conditioning envelope too far and (in his opinion) sacrifice too much muscle in doing so.

I don't agree. If people want size at the expense of conditioning, there are a million NPC and IFBB shows they can attend. Natural bodybuilders will simply never be able to measure up to enhanced competitors in terms of sheer muscle mass. However, the natural competitor CAN compete w/ enhanced bb'ers in terms of conditioning and IMO, that's what makes it worthwhile to attend natural shows as opposed to NPC shows....to see FREAKY conditioning!

If judges start rewarding size over conditioning, I see natural bodybuilding competitions becoming virtually indistinguishable from LOW LEVEL NPC shows....a bunch of relatively densely muscled guys w/ only OK conditioning.


What do you guys think??

I agree with Kiyoshi, I think there is a point where conditioning is taken too far and that if they didnt diet as hard or as long maybe they would have a better package. I am going to us Berto as an example since I have been on the boards for 6 years and have followed him for the past 4 and Kiyoshi mentioned him in the interview. Frst I want to say, I respect and admire him and his physique and its crazy to watch him take his physique to the extreme that he does. If you have a 150-160lb guy thats fat free and a guy thats 170-190 thats at only a little less conditioned and all else is equal I would go with the bigger guy every time. I think that berto does take it too far and even though he looks better than 99% of people that COMPETE when standing next to the top pros he looks too "skinny" looking. The last show he was at, he probably was the most conditioned person on stage....(kiyoshi mentioned his name as being super shredded) yet he wasnt in the top 5 ...bertos latest vlog was he needs to get leaner....I dont see how what will help him when he was probably already the leanest up there yet didnt break the top 5. Berto also has said that he only adds 1-3lbs of muscle a year....at that rate it will take him 5-10 years to be a contender at the top shows...I think he could place higher if he would not sacrifice as much muscle and get on stage bigger.

I still think that the guys on the top pro natty bb stage are more conditioned than the average NPC show and I dont think it will turn into low level NPC shows ever because the guys at the top natty shows have won NPC shows or are almost at the IFBB level. I just think the SUPER shredded look WITH the sacrifice of muscle wont improve your chances at that top level.

This is a subjective sport and there might be some judges that favor conditioning and some with size but looking at the results of the show size with great conditioning is winning....not decent size with conditioning taken too far.

[str8flexed]

berto does not need 15-30 lbs of muscle to be competitive (3lbs/ year for 5-10 years). he's already competitive, if he added another 5 he'd be REALLY competitive.

[bwelch1985]

berto does not need 15-30 lbs of muscle to be competitive (3lbs/ year for 5-10 years). he's already competitive, if he added another 5 he'd be REALLY competitive.

Agreed.

People tend to get these delusional ideas of how much muscle they need/have (likely the result of enhanced competitors influencing their perspective). 5 additional pounds of MUSCLE on Alberto would be absolutely freaky and IMO, will probably take the rest of his competitive career to acquire.

A natural bodybuilder that's been training for 10+ years just isn't going to pack on pounds and pounds of muscle any more.

[brademan76]

Haha, I just got in trouble at work for being on the "top internet users" (most bandwidth used I guess) due to listening to about 4 of these podcasts this last week. I really enjoyed the viewpoints and got excited to hear the possibility of at least one IFPA/WNBF show and possibly a bigger unification on the Natural side of Bodybuilding.

Kiyoshi's interview was good too, and I agreed with a lot of his viewpionts on saying that over the last few years stellar conditioning is not what its all about anymore and that mass is weighing more into the equation.

I like the show a lot and its cool that Mike and John do this for the sport!

[AjarnD]

berto does not need 15-30 lbs of muscle to be competitive (3lbs/ year for 5-10 years). he's already competitive, if he added another 5 he'd be REALLY competitive.




Agreed.

People tend to get these delusional ideas of how much muscle they need/have (likely the result of enhanced competitors influencing their perspective). 5 additional pounds of MUSCLE on Alberto would be absolutely freaky and IMO, will probably take the rest of his competitive career to acquire.

A natural bodybuilder that's been training for 10+ years just isn't going to pack on pounds and pounds of muscle any more.



I agree, he does not need 30lbs of muscle which is why I put 1-3lbs a year. I am thinking he needs to be 5-10lbs of muscle. Also like I mentioned he wants to get leaner from where he is now which is why I put such the big range.

If he goes down to 158 and then only adds 5lbs making him 163 standing next to guys that are close in conditioning at 190-205 that still leaves a huge difference in mass.

I understand he isnt going to grow like a weed at his level again thats why I put the 1-3lbs range.