70 Ancient Leaded Codices Found in Middle East

[thomashenry]

What are your thoughts and "THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO START AN ARGUMENT"

70 Ancient leaded codices [the size of credit cards] found in a cave in Jordan, "believed" not verified to be from the 1st Century AD, some are sealed and some have reference & depiction to the ancient city of Jerusalem, the Walls of Jerusalem, Jesus Tomb, references to the Messiah and the Crucifixion & Resurrection, one sentence was already translated " I shall walk Uprightly " one Professor was "dumbstruck" when he saw them !

Scholars and academics want to verify the authenticity of the books, the initial metallurgical tests date the book to the 1st Century AD, the form of Corrosion on the books the experts agree could not have been formed artificially, it is believed to have been found in a remote cave in Jordan from where the Israelites escaped after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, if the books prove verfiable they could be the earliest forms of Christian Documents !

There are obviously some skeptics and as it should be, but personally I find this fascinating, AGAIN I am not looking for an arguement--------History is what it is, and yours and my personal beliefs could be vastly different, I am just asking what are your thoughts ?

[mslman71]

I think it's cool. I can't help but wonder how much 'stuff' is buried in and around that area and to what extent it could fill in the missing pieces of history (or at least clarify/support).

[GnomusMaximus]

I'm not sure what you are asking. If you mean thoughts regarding these specific pieces then my answer would be who knows. There have been incidents of real finds and real frauds. I guess it's up to the experts to show which one they are. If the question is regarding the existence of the church at that time/place then I think the answer is pretty clear. Even a person that doesn't believe in Christianity would have a hard time arguing that there weren't Christians present there and then.

Personally...I've been reading Acts lately, just a chapter or two a night, and it would be really cool if those were legit.

[GnomusMaximus]

Here's the BBC story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421

[AlbinoGerbil]

This will be quite interesting to follow.

[mixbwoy]

Discovered between 2005 & 2007. Why has it taken so long to come to light? Love history like this. I wish more was translated. Not sure I believe the Israeli Bedouin who claims it has been his family for 100 years.

[Mindi912]

I watched a really interesting program once about the items they have found and stuff or believe they know where is it but the governments of the country prevent them from going in and finding it.

I find it fascinating.

[Marius_Ursus]

Discovered between 2005 & 2007. Why has it taken so long to come to light? Love history like this. I wish more was translated. Not sure I believe the Israeli Bedouin who claims it has been his family for 100 years.

A lot of countries have been passing laws that archaeologists have to write their theses and dissertations before revealing the discoveries they're making because "treasure hunting" has become such a problem. For instance, the area around the Negev alone has about a decade's worth of archaeological discoveries in need of cataloging, but the archaeologists have simply been performing dig after dig after dig and finding all kinds of objects and falling behind on analysis and publication.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Here's the BBC story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421

Thanks for posting the link.


A lot of countries have been passing laws that archaeologists have to write their theses and dissertations before revealing the discoveries they're making because "treasure hunting" has become such a problem. For instance, the area around the Negev alone has about a decade's worth of archaeological discoveries in need of cataloging, but the archaeologists have simply been performing dig after dig after dig and finding all kinds of objects and falling behind on analysis and publication.

QFT. ;)

[Marius_Ursus]

Thanks for posting the link.



QFT. ;)

You pick up the occasional issue of Archaeology Today, too, I take it. :)

[fitmom43]

Here's the BBC story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12888421

Thank you for the link!!! I am excited to see where this goes! I love anything that has to do with Ancient History and specifically when archeology further validates the bible :D

[thomashenry]

Its obvious my personal beliefs are intertwined with discoveries such as this, but the ancient world is fascinating too me, history is fascinating too me, always has been ! discoveries such as this the Dead Sea Scrolls Etc are unbelievably interesting, I do hope one day I am fortunate enough to go to Israel and see for myself all the fabrics that make up my belief and wonder

[Marius_Ursus]

Its obvious my personal beliefs are intertwined with discoveries such as this, but the ancient world is fascinating too me, history is fascinating too me, always has been ! discoveries such as this the Dead Sea Scrolls Etc are unbelievably interesting, I do hope one day I am fortunate enough to go to Israel and see for myself all the fabrics that make up my belief and wonder

Israel is amazing.

[NYkarate]

Archeology and history are fascinating. Clearly anyone's grasp of history, no matter how much one studies will always be limited. However, there is one overwhelming pattern that always emerges no matter the time period and that is that we are human and do repeat the same mistakes over and over again. They get dressed up in different clothes for each era, but the big picture repeats.

[thomashenry]

Israel is amazing. I have to take your word for it my friend, I would truly enjoy going there and sharing my experience, the Church I belong has trips generally once a year and if my wife was healthy and up to it, in heartbeat, gotta be better than Detroit :}

[Marius_Ursus]

I have to take your word for it my friend, I would truly enjoy going there and sharing my experience, the Church I belong has trips generally once a year and if my wife was healthy and up to it, in heartbeat, gotta be better than Detroit :}

It's DEFINITELY worth the trip.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CrFO3Ts6TKc/TYZYPcWLkeI/AAAAAAAAAHE/HfHoi_QPT4k/s320/100_4122.jpg

[thomashenry]

It's DEFINITELY worth the trip.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CrFO3Ts6TKc/TYZYPcWLkeI/AAAAAAAAAHE/HfHoi_QPT4k/s320/100_4122.jpg

Amen to that :}-----------I believe with all my heart & soul that Jews & Christians are inextricably linked by a singular commonality that NOTHING can break it

[Marius_Ursus]

Amen to that :}-----------I believe with all my heart & soul that Jews & Christians are inextricably linked by a singular commonality that NOTHING can break it

The good book says as long as everyone obeys G-d's laws, we're all one happy family. :)

[thomashenry]

The good book says as long as everyone obeys G-d's laws, we're all one happy family. :)

This is Happy, LOL, I know what you mean, however if I was to drop just one verse from that GOOD book, we would see in a very short time just how happy this family is

[crupiea]

Cool story. This peaks my interest for sure.

[mixbwoy]

A lot of countries have been passing laws that archaeologists have to write their theses and dissertations before revealing the discoveries they're making because "treasure hunting" has become such a problem. For instance, the area around the Negev alone has about a decade's worth of archaeological discoveries in need of cataloging, but the archaeologists have simply been performing dig after dig after dig and finding all kinds of objects and falling behind on analysis and publication.

Makes sense. Still wish there was more translated.

[Tyrbolift]

Makes sense. Still wish there was more translated.And there's the rub. Who translates stuff and what he says it says.

[hochspeyer]

What are your thoughts and "THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO START AN ARGUMENT"

70 Ancient leaded codices [the size of credit cards] found in a cave in Jordan, "believed" not verified to be from the 1st Century AD, some are sealed and some have reference & depiction to the ancient city of Jerusalem, the Walls of Jerusalem, Jesus Tomb, references to the Messiah and the Crucifixion & Resurrection, one sentence was already translated " I shall walk Uprightly " one Professor was "dumbstruck" when he saw them !

Scholars and academics want to verify the authenticity of the books, the initial metallurgical tests date the book to the 1st Century AD, the form of Corrosion on the books the experts agree could not have been formed artificially, it is believed to have been found in a remote cave in Jordan from where the Israelites escaped after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, if the books prove verfiable they could be the earliest forms of Christian Documents !

There are obviously some skeptics and as it should be, but personally I find this fascinating, AGAIN I am not looking for an arguement--------History is what it is, and yours and my personal beliefs could be vastly different, I am just asking what are your thoughts ?

Thanks for sharing- that was a very interesting story, both from a historical/archeological perspective and from a Believer's perspective.


And there's the rub. Who translates stuff and what he says it says.

You are 100% correct. Accurate translation/transliteration is as much art as science. Even with modern and commonly known languages, issues can arise. My favorite example is one of my own making, but I find it helpful in explaining to those who have no knowledge of anything but their mother tongue-

"Ein Gespenst geht um Europas, der Gespenst des Kommunismus." Although I am not a Communist, I memorized this because I saw how it could be (intentionally) misinterpreted. Like many words, Gespenst can be translated a few different ways, depending on context. In this context, Marx was saying that, "A SPIRIT is going forth across Europe, the SPIRIT of Communism".

It can also be translated as ghost or specter.

The gent interviewed in the article was fairly cautious with his words, which is only proper considering what these artifacts potentially represent.

[Tyrbolift]

Thanks for sharing- that was a very interesting story, both from a historical/archeological perspective and from a Believer's perspective.



You are 100% correct. Accurate translation/transliteration is as much art as science. Even with modern and commonly known languages, issues can arise. My favorite example is one of my own making, but I find it helpful in explaining to those who have no knowledge of anything but their mother tongue-

"Ein Gespenst geht um Europas, der Gespenst des Kommunismus." Although I am not a Communist, I memorized this because I saw how it could be (intentionally) misinterpreted. Like many words, Gespenst can be translated a few different ways, depending on context. In this context, Marx was saying that, "A SPIRIT is going forth across Europe, the SPIRIT of Communism".

It can also be translated as ghost or specter.

The gent interviewed in the article was fairly cautious with his words, which is only proper considering what these artifacts potentially represent.One specific example I remember reading about is the very important difference between saying "I am the son of God" vs "I am a son of God."

[hochspeyer]

One specific example I remember reading about is the very important difference between saying "I am the son of God" vs "I am a son of God."

That is a better example. There have also been arguments as to whether Jesus ever actually said He was God. I think the latter are moot, as evidenced by the reactions of the leaders of the day, as well as the accusations of heresy that were leveled against Jesus.

[DaddyR]

Sounds like they have a very poor chain of custody. Found sometime between 2005 and 2007, yet somehow they know exactly where they came from? In the possession of some random family of Bedoins, and not a qualified Archeologist?

Sadly there is a long history of fakery with similar artifacts, but it would indeed be interesting if they could actually be authenticated and somebody actually published something in more depth about them.

[cozener]

Why would you think this would start an argument, Thomas?

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Why would you think this would start an argument, Thomas?

Why do you think it wouldn't start an argument? That's just bone headed thinking on your part for crying out loud man use your head for something besides a stinking hat rack...






























;) :p LOL

[cozener]

Shhh! I'm trying to start an argument here!

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Shhh! I'm trying to start an argument here!

roflol.......... oh sorry man.... ;)

[thomashenry]

Why would you think this would start an argument, Thomas?

People obvioulsy have and I hope Strong opinions on this subject matter, and you & I know this can become very voliatile {challenging} insofar as opinions go which is fine with me actually, the MODS on the other hand can shut it down when things get to lively, for lack of a better term----------Would I prefer in depth as opposed to generalizing absolutely, and not in the R & P section either

[thomashenry]

shhh! I'm trying to start an argument here!--------shhhhh be vewy vewy quiet :}

[kneedragger85]

Pretty cool from an archeological/historical stand point. Just coming across relics is a pretty cool thing.

I'm not sure I find it any more significant from a religous stand point than finding Greek statues of Zues or Mayan sun gods carved into temples. Almost all cultures had/have their gods and documentation of them and it's not a secret that christianity began around the time these books are thought to have been written. It does little more than validate the existance of believers in that time. (much like pyramid heiroglyphics prove that egyptians did believe dogs and cats were gods)

I am not a believer...but can appreciate the excitement this may generate for them.

[desslok]

Very cool! I got to see the dead sea scroll when they were on tour here locally. Love this stuff.

[Marius_Ursus]

Sounds like they have a very poor chain of custody. Found sometime between 2005 and 2007, yet somehow they know exactly where they came from? In the possession of some random family of Bedoins, and not a qualified Archeologist?

Sadly there is a long history of fakery with similar artifacts, but it would indeed be interesting if they could actually be authenticated and somebody actually published something in more depth about them.

Unfortunately that's what I thought about, too. Bedouins...they'll sell you anything and tell you it's whatever they think you want to hear. They're an...interesting group of people.

[DaddyR]

Not much to argue about until someone qualified takes possession of them and starts evaluating and/or translating them. For now they're just a curiosity.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Not much to argue about until someone qualified takes possession of them and starts evaluating and/or translating them. For now they're just a curiosity.

Agreed

[jf1]

what happens if the translation reads;
"we have moved the body of jesus and are spreading false rumors of resurrection"?
(serious)

:confused:

[Old-Time-Lifter]

what happens if the translation reads;
"we have moved the body of jesus and are spreading false rumors of resurrection"?
(serious)

:confused:

What if it says "pick up a gallon of milk on your way home"?

Why waste time and energy arguing about something when we don't know what it says? Oh I know why because you're a hater.... simple answer.

Have a blessed day. :)

[thomashenry]

what happens if the translation reads;
"we have moved the body of jesus and are spreading false rumors of resurrection"?
(serious)

:confused:

"So nice to hear your voice again Aurora"------

"I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him : I am ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I dont accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and having said the things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level of a man who said he was a poached egg ! or else be the Devil of Hell. YOU must make your choice. Either this man was and is the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit on him and kill him as a demon, or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us, he did not intend to !---------C. S. Lewis

[DaddyR]

How about let's not feed the troll? Reported.

[DaddyR]

Back on topic, whatever they say is probably not going to change a lot of minds either way. Whatever you believe either way it's probably not going to be swayed much by this one "discovery" of an artifact that is not going to be easily authenticated.

I've already read one article saying that one of the images on the plates is a nearly exact reproduction of some inscriptions on a tomb somewhere leading the author to think that it's very possible they are faked. But of course nobody can say much about them until they are made widely available to the scholarly community for study.

[TheLBM]

what happens if the translation reads;
"we have moved the body of jesus and are spreading false rumors of resurrection"?
(serious)

:confused:

I read some of your "opinions" in the r/p section on this very topic. In fact i think i read this exact same post more than once in there.

Keep the r/p posts in that section. This is just an archeology topic and it will stay that way

[Tyrbolift]

How about let's not feed the troll? Reported.


reported 2xOP did start out openly saying he didn't want an argument to ensue, but really, there are probably better ways to handle this situation, all things considered(the forum, rules, gravity of infraction, spirit of free speech, negative attention to questionable and potentially flammable topic thread).

[Tyrbolift]

OP did start out openly saying he didn't want an argument to ensue, but really, there are probably better ways to handle this situation, all things considered(the forum, rules, gravity of infraction, spirit of free speech, negative attention to questionable and potentially flammable topic thread).Oops too late


I read some of your "opinions" in the r/p section on this very topic. In fact i think i read this exact same post more than once in there.

Keep the r/p posts in that section. This is just an archeology topic and it will stay that wayGood answer.

[DaddyR]

So hmmm ... maybe putting a halt to the inappropriate discussion and reporting it to the mods was the best way to handle it after all.

Anyone got any new news on this topic?

[Tyrbolift]

So hmmm ... maybe putting a halt to the inappropriate discussion and reporting it to the mods was the best way to handle it after all.No, but it worked. The best way would have been if you simply stated what the mod did to the poster in question.