PDA

View Full Version : Volume question: In terms of weekly



co1e_train
09-23-2010, 05:11 PM
Hey everyone,

So my question is about volume from a weekly standpoint and wondering how much is too much volume for a body part in a given week. I made a thread earlier about how my arms didn't seem to grow and volume in general was brought up in terms of how many sets were done each week.

For example: On my upper power days, i do 5x5 for barbbell rows for a back movement. On my lower power days I do 5x5 of rack deadlifts which is also very much a back movement. And then one of my hypertrophy days is a back/shoulder day of which I normally do 3 back movements (chins, T-bar rows, pull downs) which is another7-9 sets.

So my question is, is that too much volume in a week for a body part? How much volume is enough or too little or too much? Some say no more then 12 sets or so per workout. I do know this is very user oriented. Lately (this week) I have been erring on the side of less over all weekly volume because I do not that more is not necessarily better.

I know there may not be any "one right answer" but does anyone feel me?

I ask here cause well im not really sure and I just want to maximize my gains.


Thanks,

-the train

AustrianOakJr
09-23-2010, 06:55 PM
Youre right in saying there is no right answer for everyone. I think its going to come down to experimentation. If you are getting stronger on a regular basis than you know youre not overtraining......if you arent improving then you may need to cut back a bit on that back work. You seem to have pretty high frequency there with the back exercises.....hitting the back three days a week. Rack pulls are almost exclusively a back movement so you might just switch those over to your back power day and do 3 sets of rack pulls and 3 sets of rows. So you have knocked down overall frequency but you are keeping the same intensity with a touch less volume. Then just have to see how you respond.

DanTheManB
09-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Youre right in saying there is no right answer for everyone. I think its going to come down to experimentation. If you are getting stronger on a regular basis than you know youre not overtraining......if you arent improving then you may need to cut back a bit on that back work. You seem to have pretty high frequency there with the back exercises.....hitting the back three days a week. Rack pulls are almost exclusively a back movement so you might just switch those over to your back power day and do 3 sets of rack pulls and 3 sets of rows. So you have knocked down overall frequency but you are keeping the same intensity with a touch less volume. Then just have to see how you respond.

This, and even on the same person different body parts seem to respond differently. I POUNDED...and I mean POUNDED my legs twice/ week for three years straight and grew from it...I tried hitting calves and arms the same amount and they seemed to shrink lol

Justin-27
09-23-2010, 09:04 PM
This, and even on the same person different body parts seem to respond differently. I POUNDED...and I mean POUNDED my legs twice/ week for three years straight and grew from it...I tried hitting calves and arms the same amount and they seemed to shrink lol

Look who's back. :D

I find for the guys that train on 4,5,6 way splits that separating quads and hams into separate days allows you to get that extra hit the thighs need for best growth. Hams day can incorporate things like goblet squats, high stance sumo leg press, dumbbell lunges, etc which hit quads secondary. That's how I like to do it if I'm hitting each bp once a week (so legs really get 2x stimulation).

DanTheManB
09-23-2010, 09:08 PM
Look who's back. :D

I find for the guys that train on 4,5,6 way splits that separating quads and hams into separate days allows you to get that extra hit the thighs need for best growth. Hams day can incorporate things like goblet squats, high stance sumo leg press, dumbbell lunges, etc which hit quads secondary. That's how I like to do it if I'm hitting each bp once a week (so legs really get 2x stimulation).

Depends. If you squat correctly your hams get more than enough stimulation. Throw in a few sets of leg curls and you're good.

Leg press is more quad-dominant (can also hit hams decently too) but alternate that with DB/barbell lunges and your good.

I hate hamstring only days.


Unless we're talking HEAVY ass stiff legs


EDIT: Yeah, I'm back...you mad?

JohnBrowne
09-23-2010, 09:19 PM
Depends. If you squat correctly your hams get more than enough stimulation. Throw in a few sets of leg curls and you're good.

Leg press is more quad-dominant (can also hit hams decently too) but alternate that with DB/barbell lunges and your good.

I hate hamstring only days.


Unless we're talking HEAVY ass stiff legs


EDIT: Yeah, I'm back...you mad?

If I have the time I like to hit quads in the AM and go back for hamstrings and calves later but what often happens is that my quads are already sore by the time I go back in for hamstrings and it so it's hard to put in 100%.

If you have enough time (ie 2 hours LOL) you can hit both quads and hams just fine in one session.

DanTheManB
09-23-2010, 09:21 PM
If I have the time I like to hit quads in the AM and go back for hamstrings and calves later but what often happens is that my quads are already sore by the time I go back in for hamstrings and it so it's hard to put in 100%.

If you have enough time (ie 2 hours LOL) you can hit both quads and hams just fine in one session.

this is honestly what i do. i make sure i'm up early enough before work or do them on an off day and yeah takes about 2 hours.

JohnBrowne
09-23-2010, 09:25 PM
To answer the OP: I train using a very traditional five-day split hitting each bodypart once a week. I hit back every Friday with 7-8 exercises with 3-4 working sets each - easily 25-30 working sets per session. I have responded very well to such high volume but I have always been a huge fan of high volume training.

In your case I would stop doing rack deads - they are a back exercises and not a very good one at that - and limit your back stimuli to rows or 3/4 deadlifts on upper power day and 3-4 exercises later in the week.

I must admit I am not a fan of high frequency training if only because your lower back is going to have difficulty recovering.

co1e_train
09-23-2010, 09:38 PM
Hey everyone thanks for the input!

I was only using my back as an example but since its generated some discussion and after Ive thought about it maybe it could be addressed.

Ive opted for rack deadlifts opposed to regular deads because after I squat on my lower power days, my legs just cant handle regular deadlifts, id be not pulling as much as I can and not getting as much stimuli via amount of weight used on my back. Ive been doing them cuz ive always heard that some form of DL is a must have to help develop solid back thickness. Ive always thought them too be a good exercise and if so I would perfer to keep them and drop volume elsewhere.


Oak you are def right about experimentation which is what I am somewhat doing at the moment this week as I have alterted some volume to some body parts already.


Thanks guys!

JohnBrowne
09-23-2010, 10:04 PM
Hey everyone thanks for the input!

I was only using my back as an example but since its generated some discussion and after Ive thought about it maybe it could be addressed.

Ive opted for rack deadlifts opposed to regular deads because after I squat on my lower power days, my legs just cant handle regular deadlifts, id be not pulling as much as I can and not getting as much stimuli via amount of weight used on my back. Ive been doing them cuz ive always heard that some form of DL is a must have to help develop solid back thickness. Ive always thought them too be a good exercise and if so I would perfer to keep them and drop volume elsewhere.


Oak you are def right about experimentation which is what I am somewhat doing at the moment this week as I have alterted some volume to some body parts already.


Thanks guys!

The real question is why you're doing a back-dominant exercise on your lower power day.

Justin-27
09-23-2010, 11:09 PM
Depends. If you squat correctly your hams get more than enough stimulation. Throw in a few sets of leg curls and you're good.

Leg press is more quad-dominant (can also hit hams decently too) but alternate that with DB/barbell lunges and your good.

I hate hamstring only days.


Unless we're talking HEAVY ass stiff legs


EDIT: Yeah, I'm back...you mad?

Naw, not mad.

I think a hamstiring/calf day is awesome.

Sumo leg press I find doesn't hit quads much at all, feet ducked out and wide, high on plank works glutes/hammies predominantly.

I like to do front squat, hack squats, leg extension on quad day and sldls, goblet squat or sumo leg press and standing leg curl on hamstring days. Good stuff.

JohnBrowne
09-23-2010, 11:17 PM
Naw, not mad.

I think a hamstiring/calf day is awesome.

Sumo leg press I find doesn't hit quads much at all, feet ducked out and wide, high on plank works glutes/hammies predominantly.

I like to do front squat, hack squats, leg extension on quad day and sldls, goblet squat or sumo leg press and standing leg curl on hamstring days. Good stuff.

Yeah again if you have enough time you can do it in one day.

Last leg session I did:

light leg extensions
leg press
squats
hacks
cybex leg press in the higher rep range
leg extensions to failure
seated leg curls
SLDLs
lying leg curls
isolateral leg curls

I rotate in smith squats, horizontal leg press, front squats in the smith and lunges for quads and sumo leg press and a lunge variant for hamstrings and I'll occasionally do hip abductor/adductor movements as well.

Edit: Not to disagree with you, just saying it can be done either way.

Justin-27
09-24-2010, 12:15 AM
Yeah again if you have enough time you can do it in one day.

Last leg session I did:

light leg extensions
leg press
squats
hacks
cybex leg press in the higher rep range
leg extensions to failure
seated leg curls
SLDLs
lying leg curls
isolateral leg curls

I rotate in smith squats, horizontal leg press, front squats in the smith and lunges for quads and sumo leg press and a lunge variant for hamstrings and I'll occasionally do hip abductor/adductor movements as well.

Edit: Not to disagree with you, just saying it can be done either way.


For sure man, all kinds of ways to skin a cat in this game.

I wasn't saying to split them based on time issues, I said to do that for 2 reasons.

1) Gives hamstrings equal love vs quads. Most guys take hamstring and calf training less seriously than quad.

2) Allows a typical one bp per week trainee to hit a squat twice a week. Hamstring dominant squats like sumo stance dumbbell goblet squats only marginally hit quads, but blast the hams/glutes. Same with the lunge.

AustrianOakJr
09-24-2010, 04:49 AM
Look who's back. :D

I find for the guys that train on 4,5,6 way splits that separating quads and hams into separate days allows you to get that extra hit the thighs need for best growth. Hams day can incorporate things like goblet squats, high stance sumo leg press, dumbbell lunges, etc which hit quads secondary. That's how I like to do it if I'm hitting each bp once a week (so legs really get 2x stimulation).

Bar none, this has given me the biggest leg growth out of anything that I have tried.


Hey everyone thanks for the input!

I was only using my back as an example but since its generated some discussion and after Ive thought about it maybe it could be addressed.

Ive opted for rack deadlifts opposed to regular deads because after I squat on my lower power days, my legs just cant handle regular deadlifts, id be not pulling as much as I can and not getting as much stimuli via amount of weight used on my back. Ive been doing them cuz ive always heard that some form of DL is a must have to help develop solid back thickness. Ive always thought them too be a good exercise and if so I would perfer to keep them and drop volume elsewhere.


Oak you are def right about experimentation which is what I am somewhat doing at the moment this week as I have alterted some volume to some body parts already.


Thanks guys!

If you try separating your leg days, then deadlifts can be put with hamstrings if you focus more on romanian and sumo style lifts. Obviously, you are still hitting back in there so this complicates things if you are hitting back on upper power, upper hyper and lower days......thats a lot of frequency. Faced with that choice you might try alternating power and hyper weekly rather than doing each once per week OR you could alternate deadlifting and squatting from week to week. Ideally, you dont want to do max effort power training on those exercises every week anyways.....IMOP, its just too much.


Naw, not mad.

I think a hamstiring/calf day is awesome.

Sumo leg press I find doesn't hit quads much at all, feet ducked out and wide, high on plank works glutes/hammies predominantly.

I like to do front squat, hack squats, leg extension on quad day and sldls, goblet squat or sumo leg press and standing leg curl on hamstring days. Good stuff.

Yea buddy! Smoke dem wheels! :D

PINO2007
09-24-2010, 05:06 AM
i actually hit quads only then 2 days later i train hams and biceps...and since i started this my legs have improved a lot ! For quads i warm up on leg extensions then move to heavy squats , leg press or hack squat , lunges e finish with extensions again . Hams day begin usually with lyin' leg curls , then straight legs deadlift ( heavy ) and standing leg curls or seated ham curls .

DanTheManB
09-24-2010, 07:31 AM
Basically Experiment, Cole.

I'm only 27 but have tried numerous splits. I've done a back width and back thickness day in the same week (IE two total days focusing solely on back)...have also tried seperate ham and quad days. Different things will work differently for each individual. You have time to experiment big guy so...have fun with it! :) But be patient dammit.

DanTheManB
09-24-2010, 07:35 AM
Naw, not mad.

I think a hamstiring/calf day is awesome.

Sumo leg press I find doesn't hit quads much at all, feet ducked out and wide, high on plank works glutes/hammies predominantly.

I like to do front squat, hack squats, leg extension on quad day and sldls, goblet squat or sumo leg press and standing leg curl on hamstring days. Good stuff.

Good call on sumo leg press. I used to do those. Until I realized how deep squats+regular deadlifts+straight leg DL's f'ed my hams up WAY more. I do agree that it's difficult to devote 100% effort to them or calves doing legs in one day. I just feel like it's overkill for myself now as my legs are a strong point....

Justin-27
09-24-2010, 11:23 AM
How did you like the Back width and Back thickness days Dan?
What movements were the focus on each?

co1e_train
09-24-2010, 12:01 PM
But be patient dammit.

Haha and that is the battle my man.


I may alternate between squatting and Deadlifting. That way I can do regular deadlifts and not overload my body by going hard and heavy on two big lifts each week and that will also cut down my volume/frequency for my back.

As far as other Body parts go. I do about 12 or so sets total in a week including both my power and hyper days, except for arms of which I am only doing 6-8 total sets.

DanTheManB
09-24-2010, 06:10 PM
How did you like the Back width and Back thickness days Dan?
What movements were the focus on each?

Pullups of all varieties (grips) as many sets/reps to failure...i would pyramid up starting at bodyweight to 90lbs on me for 3 reps and back down to just bodyweight...tons of pull downs and slow hammer high pulls. i tried it a cple weeks. shoulda stuck with itas my width and thickness suck.

thickness would be deadlifts or rack puls, db rows and barbell or tbar rows heavy

JohnBrowne
09-24-2010, 06:35 PM
Pullups of all varieties (grips) as many sets/reps to failure...i would pyramid up starting at bodyweight to 90lbs on me for 3 reps and back down to just bodyweight...tons of pull downs and slow hammer high pulls. i tried it a cple weeks. shoulda stuck with itas my width and thickness suck.

thickness would be deadlifts or rack puls, db rows and barbell or tbar rows heavy

Strong O/T but do you have any back pics?

DanTheManB
09-24-2010, 06:40 PM
Strong O/T but do you have any back pics?

check my log.....it's come up a lot for sure. all about developing the mind-muscle connection and i didnt properly learn that until about a year ago. once cals go up the development should move at a faster rate. but yeah still sucks atm

JohnBrowne
09-24-2010, 06:54 PM
check my log.....it's come up a lot for sure. all about developing the mind-muscle connection and i didnt properly learn that until about a year ago. once cals go up the development should move at a faster rate. but yeah still sucks atm

yeah checked out your log... you need to come train back with me LOL

my back is my best bodypart by a huge margin

DanTheManB
09-24-2010, 08:12 PM
yeah checked out your log... you need to come train back with me LOL

my back is my best bodypart by a huge margin

arms and back=genetically weaker bodyparts. they can and will be brought up though.

JohnBrowne
09-24-2010, 08:15 PM
arms and back=genetically weaker bodyparts. they can and will be brought up though.

word

I have no arms (especially forearms). It really messes with the "look". In most shirts I don't even look like I lift.