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co1e_train
09-11-2010, 07:03 PM
Hey everyone,


So my arms are very stubborn. I have noticed growth on all other bodyparts as of late except for my arms. I pretty confident that I am training them hard and heavy and that I am eating enough calories to support growth.

My question is one of input of what some of you more experienced people have done in terms of programs or rep ranges etc that you have tried for stubborn body parts that has helped growth. I know muscle growth is slow and i wouldnt say that my arms havnt been growing, I would say there has been growth but not the degree that I would think though I could be wrong.

I was just curious if some of you guys have any thoughts or opinions on training techniques for arms. Higher volume, lower volume, higher reps lower reps etc.

Sorry for semi-wall O text


-the train

Justin.Martin
09-11-2010, 07:09 PM
It would help if you could tell us what you are doing now. To include your training split and some food intake stats.

co1e_train
09-12-2010, 12:04 AM
It would help if you could tell us what you are doing now. To include your training split and some food intake stats.

Yes of course haha I didnt even think about it, sorry.

I am doing Layne's basic power/hypertrophy split. On the chest/arms day, the routine for arms is as follows.

-Barbell Close Grip Bench 3x8-12
-Preacher Curls 3x8-12 super setted with
-Standing French Press 3x8-12
-Push Downs 3x8-12 super setted with
-DB Hammer Curls
-Machine Curl 3x8-12 supersetted with
-Machine Dips 3x8-12

its a solid split and arms are pumped to the max when i work out, I guess they dont seem to be growing the way I think they should be or are growing as the rest of my body is.

Nutritional my calories are 3300, Pro. 260, Carb,370, fat. 85

MrMcCarthy
09-12-2010, 12:12 AM
stop doing supersets and focus on strength gains with core movements such as barbell curls, DB hammer curls, close grip benching, overhead DB extensions, dips, etcertera

the problem with supersetting and doing 1000 machine exercises is not so much the risk of overtraining as the inability to make and maintain notable strength gains

edit: you're also sub 200 pounds @ 6'2" and not super lean, how big do you expect your arms to be with all things considered?

doggue
09-12-2010, 03:48 AM
man my arms are lagging too...so subborn

What helped me a bit is to reduce volume, choose 2 excercises for bi and 2 for tri and focus on brining up the weight.

for me:

BB curls
incline single db curls

close grip smith press
lying french press

AustrianOakJr
09-12-2010, 05:17 AM
Its possible you may be dong too much. You have a lot of isolation movements there.....12 sets for triceps alone. I dont even do 12 sets for my quads. I rarely train my biceps/triceps more than 6 sets in a given week....usually its less. They are used in so many other exercises. I am not big on calling out "overtraining" but you may indeed be overtraining.

FemmeFatale28
09-12-2010, 06:49 AM
Its possible you may be dong too much. You have a lot of isolation movements there.....12 sets for triceps alone. I dont even do 12 sets for my quads. I rarely train my biceps/triceps more than 6 sets in a given week....usually its less. They are used in so many other exercises. I am not big on calling out "overtraining" but you may indeed be overtraining.


man my arms are lagging too...so subborn

What helped me a bit is to reduce volume, choose 2 excercises for bi and 2 for tri and focus on brining up the weight.

for me:

BB curls
incline single db curls

close grip smith press
lying french press

^^ THESE^^ Im not seasoned or anything but from what I have read is that less is more when it comes to growth and strength.

zmcdole
09-12-2010, 09:41 AM
Some good advice was given already, but I'll make a statement as well. You said that you were supersetting your bi's with tri's. That will get you a wicked pump, but pump doesn't always mean growth. If you're gonna superset, superset the same muscle instead of doing one supersetted with another. As was already mentioned, pick 2 movements and for bi's and two movements for tri's. You might also think about separating the day that you train bi's from the day that you train tri's or just training arms on a day by itself.

I've pretty much always trained triceps with chest. I do this because the compound movements that I do for chest are heavy and they put a pretty good beating on my triceps. Then I only have to do 1 or 2 isolation movements to finish them off. I used to train biceps with back all the time, but now I like to train biceps with shoulders. A good back workout can be pretty draining and if I don't think I can focus enough energy towards my biceps for another 1 or 2 exercises then I won't waste my time and I'll just wait till my next workout to blast em.

Sometimes going for a really good pump can be counterproductive. It's SUPER easy to get a good pump with almost zero intensity. Workouts with little intensity don't give your muscle any reason to change/adapt.

Withoutreason
09-12-2010, 09:54 AM
Just keep in the 8 rep range and maybe add in some drop sets/train to failure

If your not already doing these exercises then I suggest you give them a go

Plate curls
Hammer curls
EZ bar curls
Dumbell curls (wrists turned so pinky is pointing as far away from the floor as possible)

Overhead extensions with EZ curl bar (go slow with perfect form to save the joints)
Push ups with hands/elbows tucked in towards the stomach
Weighted Dips

I dont use machines cause I workout at home so I cant advise you on them

MrMcCarthy
09-12-2010, 10:23 AM
man my arms are lagging too...so subborn

What helped me a bit is to reduce volume, choose 2 excercises for bi and 2 for tri and focus on brining up the weight.

for me:

BB curls
incline single db curls

close grip smith press
lying french press


Its possible you may be dong too much. You have a lot of isolation movements there.....12 sets for triceps alone. I dont even do 12 sets for my quads. I rarely train my biceps/triceps more than 6 sets in a given week....usually its less. They are used in so many other exercises. I am not big on calling out "overtraining" but you may indeed be overtraining.

For me it was the opposite; my arms grew when I gave them a separate day and increased volume considerably. I really don't buy into the idea that high volume is immediately indicative of overtraining.

But I think the key here - regardless of volume - is that you allow for consistent progressive overload.

Cumulonimbus
09-12-2010, 10:28 AM
You are not stimulating myofibrillar hypertrophy, you're mainly focusing on sarcoplasmic growth.

Add a combination of Max OT training with traditional 8-12 rep range BB training.

co1e_train
09-12-2010, 12:01 PM
To whoever posted above about my weight and height those are not correct. I weigh 220 right now I just havnt updated my weight.

First and foremost, thank you so much everyone for your input. After reading everyone's thoughts ive concluded that only approach I havnt tried really is lessening my volume. I think I have been stubborn to lower my volume because I have been afraid that I would not be stimulating my arms enough for growth. However I think Im going to swallow that fear and for the remaineder of the 8 weeks that I am doing laynes beginning hyper/power split I am going to try only 2 exercises for bi's and tri's on my arm hypertrophy day.

I have been doing barbbell curls 5x5 on my upper power day so I can progressively get stronger. I do indeed focus on progressive overload by either upping weight on all lifts week to week or doing more reps with the same weight etc. Basically doing overloading more, even if just by 5 lbs or a few reps each week.

For my two exercises Im thinking for Biceps ill do EZ Bar preacher curls and Hammer curls for 3 sets and for triceps do Close grip bench press and French press. What do you think? Should I do close grip BP even after I am doing other pressing movements via ches presses/shoulder presses? Or should I get something with a different angle/ROM?


Again I really appreciate it guys! I just feel like my arms are the only part of my body that isnt growing that quickly.

For dicussions sake, here is the entire program of which I am following below.

Sunday: Upper Power

-5x5 or 3x5 for all lifts(5x5 on bulk cause recovery is better, 3x5 on cut)
-Barbell Bench Press
-Barbell Rows
-Military Press
-Barbell Shrugs

Monday: Lower Power

-5x5 or 3x5 for all lifts(5x5 on bulk cause recovery is better, 3x5 on cut)
-Back Squat
-Stiff Leg Deadlift, Or Romanian DL
-6-8 sets of Standing Calf, little higher reps, i like to do 6-8 on heavy days

Tues: Off (I usually do some cardio)

Wednesday: Hypertrophy Chest/Arms

(For hypertrophy days i never go to failure, always stop about 2 reps before failure)
-DB Incline Bech 3x8-12
-Barbell Close Grip Bench 3x8-12
-DB Flat Bench 2x8-12
-Preacher Curls 3x8-12 super setted with
-Standing French Press 3x8-12
-Push Downs 3x8-12 super setted with
-DB Hammer Curls
-Cable Crossovers 3x8-12
-Machine Curl 3x8-12 supersetted with
-Machine Dips 3x8-12

Thursday: Hypertrophy Shoulders/Back/Traps
(For hypertrophy days i never go to failure, always stop about 2 reps before failure)

-DB Shoulder Press 3x8-12 super setted with
-DB Front Raise 3x8-12
-DB One Arm Row 3x8-12 super setted with
-DB Arnold Press 3x8-12
-Lat Pull Down (Wide Grip) 2x8-12 super setted with
-DB Shrugs 2x10-15
-Lat Pull Down (Close grip, palms facing in) 2x8-12 super setted with
-DB Upright Row 2x10-15
-T-bar row 2x8-12 (Usually too tired/dead to do this last exercise, but some times i do it)

Friday: Hypertrophy Legs/Calves
(For hypertrophy days i never go to failure, always stop about 2 reps before
failure)

-Hack Squat 5x8-12 super setted with
-Standing Calf 5x10-15
-Leg Extensions 5x10-15 super setted with
-Sitting Leg Curls 5x10-15 super setted with
-Sitting Calf Raise 4x8-12

Now this past leg day I didnt follow this split exactly. For those of you who have followed my log I decided to do 3 sets of bb squats and 3 sets of hack squats opposed to just 5 sets of hacks as I want to regular bb squat too.


-the train

devo09
09-12-2010, 12:29 PM
OP
1. Quit copying other routines
2. Progressive overload is the key, but don't think that you're going to be adding weight to the bar every week, with smaller muscles bis/tris, you're not going to be increasing the weights fast at all. And the people that do are simply letting their form go to ****
3. I know that sets of 5 for arms never did anything for me, keep doing that if you want though
4. Back to #1, don't copy specific exercises either. There are no special exercises that are better than others. Biceps = elbow flexion exercise, that you can safely perform and overload over time. Triceps = elbow extension, and I would also make overhead movements a priority in order to hammer the long head


You are not stimulating myofibrillar hypertrophy, you're mainly focusing on sarcoplasmic growth.

Add a combination of Max OT training with traditional 8-12 rep range BB training.

OH really? 8-12 reps doesn't stimulate myofib hypertrophy?

Damn, thats news to me!

MrMcCarthy
09-12-2010, 12:56 PM
OP
1. Quit copying other routines
2. Progressive overload is the key, but don't think that you're going to be adding weight to the bar every week, with smaller muscles bis/tris, you're not going to be increasing the weights fast at all. And the people that do are simply letting their form go to ****
3. I know that sets of 5 for arms never did anything for me, keep doing that if you want though
4. Back to #1, don't copy specific exercises either. There are no special exercises that are better than others. Biceps = elbow flexion exercise, that you can safely perform and overload over time. Triceps = elbow extension, and I would also make overhead movements a priority in order to hammer the long head



OH really? 8-12 reps doesn't stimulate myofib hypertrophy?

Damn, thats news to me!

Yeah I never do lower reps for arms either; it's hard as hell to do heavy curls without massively compromising form and heavy tricep training hurts my elbows.

rewaste
09-12-2010, 02:08 PM
I think I can say a little bit about arms for a hard gainer. What worked for me was 8x8's with only 15 sec rest between Bi's Drag Curls, Scot curls, spider curls, Tri rope pushdowns, dips kickbacks forearms rev curls, hammers, wrist curls.

co1e_train
09-12-2010, 07:20 PM
OP
1. Quit copying other routines
2. Progressive overload is the key, but don't think that you're going to be adding weight to the bar every week, with smaller muscles bis/tris, you're not going to be increasing the weights fast at all. And the people that do are simply letting their form go to ****
3. I know that sets of 5 for arms never did anything for me, keep doing that if you want though
4. Back to #1, don't copy specific exercises either. There are no special exercises that are better than others. Biceps = elbow flexion exercise, that you can safely perform and overload over time. Triceps = elbow extension, and I would also make overhead movements a priority in order to hammer the long head
!

Bro thanks for the input, esp about over head movements because I want to bring my long head up and I did not know that overhead movements help with that.

Im just following this split just to get a feel for how the program works, I dont follow it exactly to the T as I mentioned I do legs differently and am now gonna be changing up my arm routine.

I do keep my form as perfect as I can on 5x5 but I cant say ive seen size gains with those so maybe ill kick it up to 3x8s instead.

But what about thoughts on doing just 2 lifts for bi's and tri's as some mentioned. Would this be a good lower volume approach to start with for arms? Cause as I said i have always battled implementing and following the "less is more" routine esp when it comes to arms.


Thanks agian

woofman81
09-14-2010, 02:14 AM
Just started my 3rd week on this same routine. I'm loving it so far! I've never done anything like it so I figured I'd shock the body with it for about 8 weeks or so.

ErickStevens
09-14-2010, 03:50 AM
OP
2. Progressive overload is the key, but don't think that you're going to be adding weight to the bar every week, with smaller muscles bis/tris, you're not going to be increasing the weights fast at all. And the people that do are simply letting their form go to ****
3. I know that sets of 5 for arms never did anything for me, keep doing that if you want though
4. Back to #1, don't copy specific exercises either. There are no special exercises that are better than others. Biceps = elbow flexion exercise, that you can safely perform and overload over time. Triceps = elbow extension, and I would also make overhead movements a priority in order to hammer the long head


Good advice here. Pay attention to your own biomechanics - Don't just do an exercise because you think you're supposed to. Also since they're so stubborn, I think you should train them on their own day.