The Government Can Use GPS to Track Your Moves

[BJplayer]

Hello Big Brother! The totalitarian state is upon us! This court ruling is absolutely frightening to me and what it means to our freedom from government encroaching on our fundamental rights. Who cares about unreasonable search and seisure? Who cares about a search warrant? Let the police do as they please! What do you think?

The Government Can Use GPS to Track Your Moves


Government agents can sneak onto your property in the middle of the night, put a GPS device on the bottom of your car and keep track of everywhere you go. This doesn't violate your Fourth Amendment rights, because you do not have any reasonable expectation of privacy in your own driveway — and no reasonable expectation that the government isn't tracking your movements.

That is the bizarre — and scary — rule that now applies in California and eight other Western states. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers this vast jurisdiction, recently decided the government can monitor you in this way virtually anytime it wants — with no need for a search warrant.
(See a TIME photoessay on Cannabis Culture.)

It is a dangerous decision — one that, as the dissenting judges warned, could turn America into the sort of totalitarian state imagined by George Orwell. It is particularly offensive because the judges added insult to injury with some shocking class bias: the little personal privacy that still exists, the court suggested, should belong mainly to the rich.

This case began in 2007, when Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) agents decided to monitor Juan Pineda-Moreno, an Oregon resident who they suspected was growing marijuana. They snuck onto his property in the middle of the night and found his Jeep in his driveway, a few feet from his trailer home. Then they attached a GPS tracking device to the vehicle's underside.

After Pineda-Moreno challenged the DEA's actions, a three-judge panel of the Ninth Circuit ruled in January that it was all perfectly legal. More disturbingly, a larger group of judges on the circuit, who were subsequently asked to reconsider the ruling, decided this month to let it stand. (Pineda-Moreno has pleaded guilty conditionally to conspiracy to manufacture marijuana and manufacturing marijuana while appealing the denial of his motion to suppress evidence obtained with the help of GPS.)

In fact, the government violated Pineda-Moreno's privacy rights in two different ways. For starters, the invasion of his driveway was wrong. The courts have long held that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy in their homes and in the "curtilage," a fancy legal term for the area around the home. The government's intrusion on property just a few feet away was clearly in this zone of privacy.

The judges veered into offensiveness when they explained why Pineda-Moreno's driveway was not private. It was open to strangers, they said, such as delivery people and neighborhood children, who could wander across it uninvited.
(See the misadventures of the CIA.)


Chief Judge Alex Kozinski, who dissented from this month's decision refusing to reconsider the case, pointed out whose homes are not open to strangers: rich people's. The court's ruling, he said, means that people who protect their homes with electric gates, fences and security booths have a large protected zone of privacy around their homes. People who cannot afford such barriers have to put up with the government sneaking around at night.

Judge Kozinski is a leading conservative, appointed by President Ronald Reagan, but in his dissent he came across as a raging liberal. "There's been much talk about diversity on the bench, but there's one kind of diversity that doesn't exist," he wrote. "No truly poor people are appointed as federal judges, or as state judges for that matter." The judges in the majority, he charged, were guilty of "cultural elitism."
(Read about one man's efforts to escape the surveillance state.)

The court went on to make a second terrible decision about privacy: that once a GPS device has been planted, the government is free to use it to track people without getting a warrant. There is a major battle under way in the federal and state courts over this issue, and the stakes are high. After all, if government agents can track people with secretly planted GPS devices virtually anytime they want, without having to go to a court for a warrant, we are one step closer to a classic police state — with technology taking on the role of the KGB or the East German Stasi.

Fortunately, other courts are coming to a different conclusion from the Ninth Circuit's — including the influential U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. That court ruled, also this month, that tracking for an extended period of time with GPS is an invasion of privacy that requires a warrant. The issue is likely to end up in the Supreme Court.

In these highly partisan times, GPS monitoring is a subject that has both conservatives and liberals worried. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit's pro-privacy ruling was unanimous — decided by judges appointed by Presidents Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.
(Comment on this story.)

Plenty of liberals have objected to this kind of spying, but it is the conservative Chief Judge Kozinski who has done so most passionately. "1984 may have come a bit later than predicted, but it's here at last," he lamented in his dissent. And invoking Orwell's totalitarian dystopia where privacy is essentially nonexistent, he warned: "Some day, soon, we may wake up and find we're living in Oceania."

Cohen, a lawyer, is a former TIME writer and a former member of the New York Times editorial board



Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2013150,00.html?hpt=T2#ixzz0xf96cv00

[OutOfStep]

Crawl under my car and plant a GPS? Lmao, most phones have GPS nowadays. Wouldn't be too hard for anyone to figure out where I am at any time of the day.

[V-240]

Aha! THIS explains why my iPhone battery runs down so fast!

Where's my foil hat?!?

[DaddyR]

Where the heck would I ever go that I would give a crap about whether the government knows that I went there? If they want to watch me drive back and forth to work, gym, grocery store and church, then meh who cares?

[gjbosick]

A crack in the rock is all it takes to break it, we as citizens should watch carefully what our government is up to, or we are running a huge chance of losing our rights that people have died for. I think we have become to complaciant in how we react to stories like this it would have been an outrage just 20 years ago.

[BJplayer]

A crack in the rock is all it takes to break it, we as citizens should watch carefully what our government is up to, or we are running a huge chance of losing our rights that people have died for. I think we have become to complaciant in how we react to stories like this it would have been an outrage just 20 years ago.

This^^^^Why should it concern you that the government can completely ignore our constitutional rights? If you dont know the answer to that question, then you are woefully ignornant of the abuses of power that have occured throughout history....

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Where the heck would I ever go that I would give a crap about whether the government knows that I went there? If they want to watch me drive back and forth to work, gym, grocery store and church, then meh who cares?

Well DaddyR, with your extreme fundamentalist Christian beliefs you certainly aren't one of those which a secular administration would consider a threat are you?

To your attitude I say............. meh, right back.


A crack in the rock is all it takes to break it, we as citizens should watch carefully what our government is up to, or we are running a huge chance of losing our rights that people have died for. I think we have become to complaciant in how we react to stories like this it would have been an outrage just 20 years ago.


This^^^^Why should it concern you that the government can completely ignore our constitutional rights? If you dont know the answer to that question, then you are woefully ignornant of the abuses of power that have occured throughout history....

These ^^^^

[snorkelman]

This has been going on for a couple years already.

[BJplayer]

Why did the framers of the Constitution include the Bill of Rights, the first 10 ammendments, in the constitution? Were they not terrified of a government that could abuse its citizenry? Did they not want to ensure that we were guaranteed certain rights against an oppressive government? Which of these rights should we be willing to give up since its only "criminals" who are being abused?

[gjbosick]

Why did the framers of the Constitution include the Bill of Rights, the first 10 ammendments, in the constitution? Were they not terrified of a government that could abuse its citizenry? Did they not want to ensure that we were guaranteed certain rights against an oppressive government? Which of these rights should we be willing to give up since its only "criminals" who are being abused?

Exactly, what most people do not understand is there is a law somewhere that they are guilty of breaking and if the government decides they want to do something about it they can and will. So we need to look at everything that goes on so we can defend against the abuses that happen even if we think the criminal is just that, but then again at some point and time we all are criminals at some time or another, speeding, stop sign rolling, the list goes on.

[DaddyR]

My point was that there are a lot more serious and damaging invasions of our privacy going on already. I just don't see this one as being unusually worrisome. I am far more upset over Obamas asking people to rat out anyone who sends them an email saying anything negative about him, for example.

Knowing my exact whereabouts is not going to help them until the revolution begins... Oops did I spill the beans?

[GnomusMaximus]

The same kind of conflicts and concerns arise when ever a new technology makes it to the point of being easy to use. This is the same thing that happened with recording devices, cameras, fingerprints, use of blood type, use of DNA. Same old same old, sorry to disapoint but you can still worry about black helicopters if you like.

[ehode]

Maybe they could use it to see how god damn slow my commute is on I-5 heading home and decide to finally add a few more ****ing lanes.

[DaddyR]

P.S. What worries me more is when they mandate that every new car be outfitted with a GPS and other sensors and they start automatically sending you speeding tickets every time their system finds you exceeded the speed limit. Some car rental companies are coming very close to doing that right now.

[Minotaur]

Maybe they could use it to see how god damn slow my commute is on I-5 heading home and decide to finally add a few more ****ing lanes.

Yeah, this could work against the government. :D

[thomashenry]

Wait, you mean this is the same Govt who over ruled the Citizens of the State of Az & Ca, that passed {imposed} health care legislation, took over Banks, Private Companies, sends tax payer Money overseas, puts OUR Children in harms way in hostile Foreign Lands with rules of engagement that are tantamount to being cannon fodder, to win the hearts & Minds of peoples who are stuck in the 5th century, and to boot, our State Dept run by Hillary Clinton spends substantial amounts of taxpayer money on an islamic cleric who openly indicated the "United States has more innocent blood on it`s hands than the taliban or al quieda" but we dare criticize him on building a victory mosque in New York City & have the President back him-----------that Government, that views the Constitution & Bill of Rights/Declaration and inconvenient annoyance not too mention a living breathing document ! That Gov`t ?

[garroutte]

Wait, you mean this is the same Govt who over ruled the Citizens of the State of Az & Ca, that passed {imposed} health care legislation, took over Banks, Private Companies, sends tax payer Money overseas, puts OUR Children in harms way in hostile Foreign Lands with rules of engagement that are tantamount to being cannon fodder, to win the hearts & Minds of peoples who are stuck in the 5th century, and to boot, our State Dept run by Hillary Clinton spends substantial amounts of taxpayer money on an islamic cleric who openly indicated the "United States has more innocent blood on it`s hands than the taliban or al quieda" but we dare criticize him on building a victory mosque in New York City & have the President back him-----------that Government, that views the Constitution & Bill of Rights/Declaration and inconvenient annoyance not too mention a living breathing document ! That Gov`t ?

Couldn't have made a better case,well said!

[Marius_Ursus]

How long has it been since cell phones started allowing vendors to send advertisements to subscribers based on where they were standing at any given moment? The moment I saw that I knew I'd never be buying a cell phone again. The last one I had was a flip-front G2 that was already a few years old, and by the time GPS was standard on a phone, I'd been out of the cell phone game for two years.

I predicted that while most found it cool and useful, I found it to be an infringement on my privacy, and it would only be a matter of time before it was used for government agencies to be able to pinpoint locate whomever they wanted for whatever they wanted. Just a couple months ago we citizens were informed that we had no reasonable expectation of privacy anymore.

Nuff said.

[Corbi]

Technology is great & we all love it, unfortunately though it's going to bite us in the ass eventually. Some of this crap you have to wonder why someone is even attempting to make it work? Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

1984, it ain't just a book anymore. :(

[Corbi]

1984, it ain't just a book anymore. :(

And yet I still don't have my flying car or personal jetpack that we were all promised was a few years away...back in the 50's.

[djflex]

I love our government...I am glad they are tracking me..makes me feel safe.


also they are probably reading this thread...:D

[Old-Time-Lifter]

And yet I still don't have my flying car or personal jetpack that we were all promised was a few years away...back in the 50's.

In 1979 I said that the next car I bought would be a hover craft. :( Still waiting. :(

[V-240]

My dad used to say, "Hey, it's 1990! WHERE'S MY FLYING CAR?!?"

:D

[ImBunky]

No cell phone, and the cars are parked in the garage.

I imagine if they started doing this, some one would come out with some kind of sweeping device to detect the unit so you could rip it off.

[KeepItMoving]

The Government recently enacted the power to assasinate American citizens considered to be a "terrorist" threat to the Government. Meanwhile, we have a president who refuses to call Al Qaida "terrorists." Yet, folks at a Tea Party Rally are considered fringe right wing extremists by Janet Napolitano at the Department of Homeland Security.

Think about it.

We have given up constitutional rights at a breakneck pace since 9-11-01. The Patriot Act had built in Sunset Provisions under Bush. Most of those have been jettisoned under the current administration. It ain't good.

[Bando]

Well at least my car will now match my hat

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01407/foil-car_1407008i.jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/283551/tin_foil_hat.jpg

[bassing68]

A crack in the rock is all it takes to break it, we as citizens should watch carefully what our government is up to, or we are running a huge chance of losing our rights that people have died for. I think we have become to complaciant in how we react to stories like this it would have been an outrage just 20 years ago.

That's because 20 years ago people in this country valued freedom. Now the socialists, you know...the majority of our citizens, have no idea what freedom is or how to enjoy it.

[Marius_Ursus]

1984, it ain't just a book anymore. :(

Yeah, we even have Newspeak and thought crime now.

[StressMonkey]

How long has it been since cell phones started allowing vendors to send advertisements to subscribers based on where they were standing at any given moment? The moment I saw that I knew I'd never be buying a cell phone again.

:confused: How long has it been? I've never heard of a vendor doing that. How would they push the advertisement to you? Text messaging? Cell phone vendors aren't allowed to do that and even if they did you could opt out.

[BJplayer]

:confused: How long has it been? I've never heard of a vendor doing that. How would they push the advertisement to you? Text messaging? Cell phone vendors aren't allowed to do that and even if they did you could opt out.

I have never seen anything like this and I have 3 cell phones for my job and my wife has a cell phone for her job....

[Old-Time-Lifter]

I have never seen anything like this and I have 3 cell phones for my job and my wife has a cell phone for her job....

I've never seen an ad on my phone either. We have 5 phones total and I've not seen this on any, of course they are all with the same carrier and on the same plan. ;)

[Marius_Ursus]

:confused: How long has it been? I've never heard of a vendor doing that. How would they push the advertisement to you? Text messaging? Cell phone vendors aren't allowed to do that and even if they did you could opt out.

About six months? I'm not sure, but it started in NYC. I saw it on the news for a few days then never heard about it again. It was enough to convince me I made the right choice in not having a cell.

EDIT - No, it was longer than six months...a couple of years ago at least.

[BJplayer]

About six months? I'm not sure, but it started in NYC. I saw it on the news for a few days then never heard about it again. It was enough to convince me I made the right choice in not having a cell.

EDIT - No, it was longer than six months...a couple of years ago at least.

I believe you are incorrect. At least I have never heard or seen anything like that. And I have had a cell phone since the late 1980's and typically more than 1 at a time.

[Marius_Ursus]

I believe you are incorrect. At least I have never heard or seen anything like that. And I have had a cell phone since the late 1980's and typically more than 1 at a time.

It was on the news. That's all I know. I haven't carried a cell phone for over 10 years, so of course I don't have any experience with it.

[Marius_Ursus]

This short list was the result of a Google search based on the string: "advertising sent to cell phones based on location". Punch it in for yourself and see how many more stories there are on it. That last link in the list is the "leader in location-based advertising".

See, it pays to keep your eyes open and pay attention to what's really going on in the world. What really gets me is that I don't own a cell phone, and I knew about this. Come on, guys. Seriously.

http://consumerist.com/2008/04/location-based-cell-phone-ads-launching-soon.html

http://www.pcworld.com/article/143694/first_locationbased_cell_phone_ads_get_privacy_thu mbsup.html

http://news.cnet.com/Advertising-seeps-into-the-cell-phone/2100-1039_3-6115617.html

http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/02/06/cell_phone_advertising/

www.bluebite.com/

[KimberleyRN]

Where the heck would I ever go that I would give a crap about whether the government knows that I went there? If they want to watch me drive back and forth to work, gym, grocery store and church, then meh who cares?

Well, when they start labeling church as 'hate speech' and those that attend are 'insurgents'... I think you will care more.

I am not too bothered by it at this time, because I am fairly low key. I do see how it could be used for good (finding those with Alzheimer's or that are kidnapped). I also see the potential for those in power to abuse this information.

[KarateLift]

I generally stay out of conversations like this.. I get very passionate about my views and am so conservative on stuff like this it's not funny.

Let's just say that I am prepared for the innevitable. I fully expect our society to collapse within my lifetime (at least this country) and am prepared to make sure that I survive.

[BJplayer]

Holy Fukc! I have 3 Sprint cell phones and have never gotten any of that crap. But I am skert now!

[StressMonkey]

Two thirds of those examples are for a particular app (loopt). If you don't want tracking don't run the app or don't opt in. The rest is all speculation on how other advertisers could reach you. It's not as if your cell phone company is forcing any of this on you.

The iPhone lets you turn off location tracking for particular apps or all apps.

[Marius_Ursus]

Two thirds of those examples are for a particular app (loopt). If you don't want tracking don't run the app or don't opt in. The rest is all speculation on how other advertisers could reach you. It's not as if your cell phone company is forcing any of this on you.

The iPhone lets you turn off location tracking for particular apps or all apps.

The advertising isn't the point. That was the example of what can be done with the technology.

Besides, 2/3 is not 3/3 and 1/100th is still too big a margin to make me comfortable with anyone being able to pinpoint my location within 5 meters.

[StressMonkey]

The advertising isn't the point. That was the example of what can be done with the technology.

Besides, 2/3 is not 3/3 and 1/100th is still too big a margin to make me comfortable with anyone being able to pinpoint my location within 5 meters.


I think the technology is great. The whole point of the loopt app is to broadcast to your friends where you are. Showing an ad for a local coffee shop makes sense to me.

If you don't want to be tracked it takes 15 seconds to disable GPS permanently for apps.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

My Pastor told me (he's an electrical engineer and ex-VP with Sprint interestingly enough left a six figure income to become a minister) that apparently the cell phone companies could activate your phone and use it as a receiver in order to record you even when you are not on the phone. My understanding was the only way to avoid this was to actually remove the battery. This doesn't mean they do it but that the capacity is there.

[Marius_Ursus]

Apps are secondary to the platform they're running on. Let's have a look at what the actual hardware is capable of:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201444.html

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3886

(This one is a bit of good news. http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2010/08/06-0)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10451518-38.html

(Lots of news on the topic. http://www.google.com/search?q=government+using+cell+phone+gps+for+track ing&hl=en&prmd=n&source=univ&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=M-V3TIKlGYWClAecyJzsCw&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CEIQsQQwCg)

And for the icing on the cake, here is what Google News turns up when you search for "reasonable expectation of privacy".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=no%20reasonable%20expectation%20of%20privacy&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn

[Marius_Ursus]

My Pastor told me (he's an electrical engineer and ex-VP with Sprint interestingly enough left a six figure income to become a minister) that apparently the cell phone companies could activate your phone and use it as a receiver in order to record you even when you are not on the phone. My understanding was the only way to avoid this was to actually remove the battery. This doesn't mean they do it but that the capacity is there.

Oh, shoot yeah. Remote activation has been a capability at least as far back as when I was in the army.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Apps are secondary to the platform they're running on. Let's have a look at what the actual hardware is capable of:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201444.html

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3886

(This one is a bit of good news. http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2010/08/06-0)

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10451518-38.html

(Lots of news on the topic. http://www.google.com/search?q=government+using+cell+phone+gps+for+track ing&hl=en&prmd=n&source=univ&tbs=nws:1&tbo=u&ei=M-V3TIKlGYWClAecyJzsCw&sa=X&oi=news_group&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CEIQsQQwCg)

And for the icing on the cake, here is what Google News turns up when you search for "reasonable expectation of privacy".

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=no%20reasonable%20expectation%20of%20privacy&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn

Why do I feel like I don't really want to read these links........ :( :( :(

Maybe later, I'm in a good mood today.......... FINALLY! I've been a real bear all week and now the bear is trying to bring me down....... curse you Marius! ;) :p

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Oh, shoot yeah. Remote activation has been a capability at least as far back as when I was in the army.

Well, I was alot happier being ignorant........ :(

;)

[Marius_Ursus]

Why do I feel like I don't really want to read these links........ :( :( :(

Maybe later, I'm in a good mood today.......... FINALLY! I've been a real bear all week and now the bear is trying to bring me down....... curse you Marius! ;) :p


Well, I was alot happier being ignorant........ :(

;)

Knowledge is power, so now you can have some power over what you know instead of being subject to what you don't. ;)

[StressMonkey]

If you feel so strongly about not wanting people to track where you are that you don't carry a cell phone isn't it contradictory to post your face and thoughts on an Internet forum? Your ip address can reveal your location (and identity with proper contacts at the ISP) and all of your messages are being archived.

[Marius_Ursus]

If you feel so strongly about not wanting people to track where you are that you don't carry a cell phone isn't it contradictory to post your face and thoughts on an Internet forum? Your ip address can reveal your location (and identity with proper contacts at the ISP) and all of your messages are being archived.

Without a proxy server, you're right.

This started out as thinking I was wrong about the facts of cell phone tracking. At any rate it turns out it was true, so all I'm saying is be careful.

[StressMonkey]

Without a proxy server, you're right.

This started out as thinking I was wrong about the facts of cell phone tracking. At any rate it turns out it was true, so all I'm saying is be careful.

Well I read your statements as saying there's no way to stop the advertisers from tracking you, which isn't true.

We've been butting heads too much this week bear. I'll buy you an iPhone for Christmas to make it up to you.

[Marius_Ursus]

Well I read your statements as saying there's no way to stop the advertisers from tracking you, which isn't true.

We've been butting heads too much this week bear. I'll buy you an iPhone for Christmas to make it up to you.

I didn't mean that. There's always the option to leave the phone in the car. LOL

I agree we've been on a tightrope lately. I'll make you a tinfoil hat, so we can see what each other's world is like. :D

[StressMonkey]

I didn't mean that. There's always the option to leave the phone in the car. LOL

I agree we've been on a tightrope lately. I'll make you a tinfoil hat, so we can see what each other's world is like. :D

Just don't make me shake hands. :D

[Marius_Ursus]

Just don't make me shake hands. :D

We'll keep to the cordial, toss-the-head-back "sup" motion. :D

[KidnKorner]

criticize him on building a victory mosque in New York City & have the President back him------

I seem to recall that it was extremist Al-Qaeda and it's followers that committed the violent acts of September 11th and declared it in the name of Islam, not Islam. Did 100% of Muslims worldwide stand up and cheer, raise their victory flags worldwide and rejoice?

So, if I, an extremist who commits a violent act and declare it in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism, Mormonism, Wicken, etc then these religions are bad or violent?

Then peaceful followers of the same religion(s) make plans to build a structure near the landmark makes it a victory shrine?

Do you recall a period in time that covered nearly 200 years called the crusades?

Ever hear the term guns don't kill people, people kill people?

I just love when people judge, and judge the whole based on the acts of a fraction.

McDonald's burgers taste like doo-doo, all burgers taste like doo-doo.

[BJplayer]

I seem to recall that it was Al-Qaeda and it's extremist followers that committed the violent acts of September 11th and declared it in the name of Islam.

So, if I, an extremists who commits a violent act and declare it in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism, Mormonism, Wicken, etc then these religions are bad or violent?

Then peaceful followers of the same religion(s) make plans to build a structure near the landmark makes it a victory shrine?

Do you recall a period in time that covered nearly 200 years called the crusades?

Ever hear the term guns don't kill people, people kill people?

I just love when people judge, and judge the whole based on the acts of a fraction.

I dont have to be tolerant of intolerant people. Islam, moderates and extremists alike, calls for the execution of homosexuals. Islam, moderates and extremeists alike, calls for the execution of people who decide to leave their religion and follow a different religion. Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Non-muslims are seen as infidels and cant even travel to entire cities like Mecca. This religion, both moderates and extremists, are intolerant of others. They are absolutely mired in the dark ages. Once they join the rest of the civilized world in the 21st century, I will welcome them as brothers. They claim we are Islamophobes, but the fact is that they are westernphobes, christophobes, and non-muslimphobes. As long as they show no love and tolerance for others, I wont be tolerating them.

[DaddyR]

Well, when they start labeling church as 'hate speech' and those that attend are 'insurgents'... I think you will care more...I hate to tell you this, but that time has already come. This is a battle we are already fighting.

[garroutte]

I dont have to be tolerant of intolerant people. Islam, moderates and extremists alike, calls for the execution of homosexuals. Islam, moderates and extremeists alike, calls for the execution of people who decide to leave their religion and follow a different religion. Islam treats women as 2nd class citizens. Non-muslims are seen as infidels and cant even travel to entire cities like Mecca. This religion, both moderates and extremists, are intolerant of others. They are absolutely mired in the dark ages. Once they join the rest of the civilized world in the 21st century, I will welcome them as brothers. They claim we are Islamophobes, but the fact is that they are westernphobes, christophobes, and non-muslimphobes. As long as they show no love and tolerance for others, I wont be tolerating them.

Well said!

[KidnKorner]

Islam, moderates and extremists alike, calls for the execution of homosexuals.


Is that a fact? I lived in Kuwait for 18 months, never once did I see the police take 1 single homosexual into custody and have them executed nor did I read about any such incident. Mind you, they were quite obvious in their cross dressing. As a matter of fact I was in a barber shop where one cross dressing homosexual came into for service as salons are segregated and the police officer who was also getting service did nothing, but all made fun of him when he left. The guy wasn't even refused service. How is that for intolerance?

All countries and religions are guilty of treating women as second class citizens, it STILL happens in the United States today.

Christ taught long suffering, the Lord will deal with the perpetuates of wrong and sin without me having to jump on the offensive and begin to judge.

Oh, by the way, I'm not a Muslim or Middle Eastern, but I have been to Mecca and Medina.


I don't have to be tolerant of intolerant people.

If you claim to be a Christian and love Jesus you do, however the Lord says not to be a door mat either.

Christ was VERY tolerant as is his example of his crucifixion.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Do you recall a period in time that covered nearly 200 years called the crusades?


And who held those lands before the Muslims conquered them? I really, get tired of folks forgeting or worse yet rewriting the history of the crusades. Yes, some folks did some very bad things, but the crusades started because the Muslims had conquered and held the Holy Lands.

[KidnKorner]

So that makes it right and justified for people to get on the offensive and slaughter right back? The crusades were a violent offensive that slaughtered many innocent people, something Jesus would NEVER have advocated, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!

Christianity, Judaism and Islam ALL claim the Holy Land as their own. Currently the Israeli's are guilty of perpetuating the same acts that were done to them, Antisemitism from the Nazi party, which they claimed was Christianity.

[Marius_Ursus]

Is that a fact? I lived in Kuwait for 18 months, never once did I see the police take 1 single homosexual into custody and have them executed nor did I read about any such incident. Mind you, they were quite obvious in their cross dressing. As a matter of fact I was in a barber shop where one cross dressing homosexual came into for service as salons are segregated and the police officer who was also getting service did nothing, but all made fun of him when he left. The guy wasn't even refused service. How is that for intolerance?

All countries and religions are guilty of treating women as second class citizens, it STILL happens in the United States today.

Christ taught long suffering, the Lord will deal with the perpetuates of wrong and sin without me having to jump on the offensive and begin to judge.

Oh, by the way, I'm not a Muslim or Middle Eastern, but I have been to Mecca and Medina.



If you claim to be a Christian and love Jesus you do, however the Lord says not to be a door mat either.

Christ was VERY tolerant as is his example of his crucifixion.

Sometimes it really pays to be Jewish. :D


And who held those lands before the Muslims conquered them? I really, get tired of folks forgeting or worse yet rewriting the history of the crusades. Yes, some folks did some very bad things, but the crusades started because the Muslims had conquered and held the Holy Lands.

I'm not convinced of that. I've read a balance of books where that's one genesis where the other is political/treasure hunting activities of the Emperor Alexius.

The older I get...the more I study...the more I'm convinced that ego, greed, and selfishness are to blame for all our woes.

[Marius_Ursus]

Christianity, Judaism and Islam ALL claim the Holy Land as their own. Currently the Israeli's are guilty of perpetuating the same acts that were done to the Semitism that was made on them by the Nazi party, which they claimed was Christianity.

Come again?

[IR45N]

"The Inquisition!"... now I've got that Mel Brooks song going thru my head from 'History of the World Part II.

[garroutte]

So that makes it right and justified for people to get on the offensive and slaughter right back? The crusades were a violent offensive that slaughtered many innocent people, something Jesus would NEVER have advocated, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!

Christianity, Judaism and Islam ALL claim the Holy Land as their own. Currently the Israeli's are guilty of perpetuating the same acts that were done to the Semitism that was made on them by the Nazi party, which they claimed was Christianity.

You sound like an extremist.

I've been overseas,the majority of the people over there want us dead and it's all in direct corrrelation with religion.Our country as a whole is the land of satan.

I've witnessed stonings,beatings,amputations. All, mostly in the Islamic and muslim realm.

You sympathizing?

[Old-Time-Lifter]

So that makes it right and justified for people to get on the offensive and slaughter right back? The crusades were a violent offensive that slaughtered many innocent people, something Jesus would NEVER have advocated, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!

Christianity, Judaism and Islam ALL claim the Holy Land as their own. Currently the Israeli's are guilty of perpetuating the same acts that were done to the Semitism that was made on them by the Nazi party, which they claimed was Christianity.

You think we should just roll over and let Islam have the world or what?

One thing is for sure, Islam has much less claim to the Holy Land than the Jews or Christians. Islam only claims it as such because it conquered it and build a mosque there, kinda like what they want to do now in NYC.

The Nazi's were not Christians sorry try again.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

I'm not convinced of that. I've read a balance of books where that's one genesis where the other is political/treasure hunting activities of the Emperor Alexius.

The older I get...the more I study...the more I'm convinced that ego, greed, and selfishness are to blame for all our woes.

You're not convinced that Islam invaded and conquered the Holy Lands? How so? Mohammad didn't start his so called religion in the Holy Land but brought it there by the sword.

[Marius_Ursus]

You're not convinced that Islam invaded and conquered the Holy Lands? How so? Mohammad didn't start his so called religion in the Holy Land but brought it there by the sword.

Perils of communicating through the written word strike again. What I meant by "that" was I'm not convinced that the Crusades were started purely as a retaliation for the Muslim invasion.

[KidnKorner]

The Nazi's were not Christians sorry try again.

Exactly! They claimed to be, just as Al-Qaeda claims to be Muslims.


Come again?

I corrected my post


You think we should just roll over and let Islam have the world or what?

One thing is for sure, Islam has much less claim to the Holy Land than the Jews or Christians. Islam only claims it as such because it conquered it and build a mosque there, kinda like what they want to do now in NYC.

The Nazi's were not Christians sorry try again.


You think we should just roll over and let Islam have the world or what?

Absolutely not, but renovating a building 2 blocks away from ground zero is a far cry from that.


You think we should just roll over and let Islam have the world or what?

One thing is for sure, Islam has much less claim to the Holy Land than the Jews or Christians. Islam only claims it as such because it conquered it and build a mosque there, kinda like what they want to do now in NYC.

Do you know that Muslims believe they worship the God of Abraham? The same God of Noah, Moses and all the disciples advocate we worship? Do you know that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah?


What I meant by "that" was I'm not convinced that the Crusades were started purely as a retaliation for the Muslim invasion.

You are right, I too share the same opinion. I believe that Muslims and Islam was used as an excuse just as George Bush used WOMD as an excuse for capitalistic greed to invade Iraq.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Do you know that Muslims believe they worship the God of Abraham? The same God of Noah, Moses and all the disciples advocate we worship? Do you know that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

.

You might want to go back and re-read your information on Islam it's flawed. I've read the Koran and it's not my God that they claim to worship. They have to say it kindly "stolen" the God of Abraham. And tried to manufacture a false claim to descent from Abraham to boot.

They may "claim" to believe Jesus was a prophet, but not the Messiah.

I my opinion Jesus warned us about Mohammed long ago........ remember the "false prophets" part?

Oh, and after reading the Koran I have to admit, the radical Muslims (a/k/a terrorists) are actually the one's following the teachings of that evil book.

[KidnKorner]

Not a single Iraqi I EVER met in Iraq hated me or showed dissident toward me or a dislike of the United States, as a mater of fact they all were grateful that we came. The ones who hate us in Iraq are the one who were used to a certain lifestyle that was granted to them by their political parties under Saddam Hussein.

Wether right or wrong, if a foreign entity came into your country and changed your lifestyle that you were accustomed to and enjoyed immesely, you'd be hating them too.


They may "claim" to believe Jesus was a prophet, but not the Messiah.

Really?

[al-Ma'idah 5:72.11] They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

[al-Ma'idah 5:75.3] The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/003.qmt.html#003.045
003.045
YUSUFALI: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
SHAKIR: When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

Arab speaking Christians refer to God as Allah by the way.

Hate begets hate, violence begets violence.

[Old-Time-Lifter]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Islam, Nabi Isa (Arabic: عيسى عليه السلام* `Īsā Alayhi As Salam, the Prophet Jesus) is considered to be a Messenger of God who was sent to guide the People of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, the Injīl or Gospel.[1]

The Qur'an, considered by Muslims to be God's final and authoritative revelation to humankind, mentions Jesus twenty-five times.[2] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles, all by the permission of God rather than his own power. According to Islamic texts, Jesus was neither killed nor crucified, but rather he was raised alive up to heaven.[3] The Qur’an states that he will return to Earth near the day of judgment to restore justice and defeat al-Masīḥ ad-Dajjāl ("the false messiah", also known as the Antichrist)[4][5] along with Imam Mahdi.

Like all prophets in Islam, Jesus is considered to have been a Muslim, as he preached that his followers should adopt the "straight path" in submission to God's will. Islam rejects the idea that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind. The Qur'an emphasizes that Jesus himself never claimed any such thing, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and that Allah will vindicate him.[6] Rather, the Qur'an emphasizes that Jesus was a mortal man who, like other prophets, had been divinely chosen to spread God's message. Islamic texts forbid the association of partners with God (shirk), emphasizing the notion of God's divine oneness (tawhīd).

Numerous titles are given to Jesus in the Qur'an, such as al-Masīḥ ("the messiah; the anointed one" i.e. by means of blessings), although this particular term does not correspond with the meaning given to it by Christians or Jews. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter's coming

[Old-Time-Lifter]

So you see Messiah to them is an insult to what I as a Christian believe Christ to be.

Spare me the Hate thing........... nothing hates like Islam.

enough said.


edit, though I do agree (as I said before) that Jesus fore told of Mohammed..... he called him a false prophet which is what he was.

And it's great that Arab speaking Christians call God Allah, my wiccan friend prays to God too....... God of the Tree, God of the this God of the that, but she still prays to the title God.

[BJplayer]

Is that a fact? I lived in Kuwait for 18 months, never once did I see the police take 1 single homosexual into custody and have them executed nor did I read about any such incident. Mind you, they were quite obvious in their cross dressing. As a matter of fact I was in a barber shop where one cross dressing homosexual came into for service as salons are segregated and the police officer who was also getting service did nothing, but all made fun of him when he left. The guy wasn't even refused service. How is that for intolerance?

All countries and religions are guilty of treating women as second class citizens, it STILL happens in the United States today.

Christ taught long suffering, the Lord will deal with the perpetuates of wrong and sin without me having to jump on the offensive and begin to judge.

Oh, by the way, I'm not a Muslim or Middle Eastern, but I have been to Mecca and Medina.



If you claim to be a Christian and love Jesus you do, however the Lord says not to be a door mat either.

Christ was VERY tolerant as is his example of his crucifixion.

The Koran absolutely calls for the execution of homosexuals and I defy you to find one Muslim who doesnt advocate same. They are very open about their hositlity toward gays and their abhorant beliefs in this regard. The same goes for apostacy. If you openly leave Islam, you are to be executed. No Muslim alive today will dispute thats what they believe should happen. So, your anecdotal evidence in a defeated Kuwait notwithstanding, you have no idea about what you speak. And to compare the subjugation of women under Islam to the inqeualities that females experience in the west is laughable. One of the reasons Muslims see the west as satanic is the freedom women enjoy here. Your rationalization for their treatment of women is lame at best and certainly disengenuous.

Look, Islam is based on the teachings of pyschopathic tribal warlord who murdered thousands of people, enslaved many others, and spread his cult by the sword. Muhammad was a brute and brutal tyrant who would be executed for war crimes today. To base a religion on such a dispicable person has led to the problems we see in trying to live a 7th century lifestyle in the 21st century. Muhammad married a 6 year old child when he was in his 50's, and started banging her at the age of 9. He was a cruel despot and to worship such a horrific character shows what Islam is about.

Finally, it is forbidden for any non muslim to go to Mecca. If you were there, then it was under some sort of rouge.

[Nikonguy]

Finally, it is forbidden for any non muslim to go to Mecca. If you were there, then it was under some sort of rouge.

rouge? Don't Muslims frown on men wearing cosmetics?

[Corbi]

They are very open about their hositlity toward gays and their abhorant beliefs in this regard.

So are southern baptists, or at least my in-laws who live in MS are:D

[Old-Time-Lifter]

So are southern baptists, or at least my in-laws who live in MS are:D

"Most" Baptists don't call for them to be stoned however. ;)

[Corbi]

"Most" Baptists don't call for them to be stoned however. ;)

Very true, not real sure about my in-laws though as they are about as backwoods as it gets. Only thing missing when we visit is a creepy kid playing a banjo.

[BJplayer]

So are southern baptists, or at least my in-laws who live in MS are:D

Oh, I agree we have some backwards ass people here. But the Islam apologist point out our issues and try to compare the two. We are debating whether gays have the right to marry. They dont even think gays have a right to live. See the difference? I see Time magazines cover story is about Islamphobia, but I never see the stories about Islams inherent intolerance for everything non muslim. Nor will we with the current bunch of America hating leftist controlling most media outlets and the Obama administration.

[djflex]

This thread has reminded me it's time to start my weapons stockpiling again...

[Marius_Ursus]

This thread has reminded me it's time to start my weapons stockpiling again...

Indeed. I like what Robert Heinlein wrote:

"An armed society is a polite society."

[DaddyR]

Meh most Southern Baptists are bleeding heart liberals.

BTW the crusades were simply in response to Islamic jihad, though I cannot take any credit for them.

The Muslims Mahdi may in fact turn out to be the Antichrist.

Yes the difference is that Baptists and others who believe the Bible don't condone stoning. We invite repentance and salvation and the associated freedom from bondage to self-indulgent perversions of all kinds.

[eomrat]

I don't find the attempt to twist meanings of simple words particularly clever, but just as a point of clarity:

In Arabic, the word messiah is synonymous with the word Mahdi and most nearly means "anointed" or "guided" by God. Nice try, but in Judeo-Christian culture and the English language, Messiah means something else entirely.





I'm not a Muslim or Middle Eastern, but I have been to Mecca

I suspect that this is a false statement, can you explain how you were able to travel to Mecca?

[Old-Time-Lifter]

Meh most Southern Baptists are bleeding heart liberals.

BTW the crusades were simply in response to Islamic jihad, though I cannot take any credit for them.

The Muslims Mahdi may in fact turn out to be the Antichrist.

Yes the difference is that Baptists and others who believe the Bible don't condone stoning. We invite repentance and salvation and the associated freedom from bondage to self-indulgent perversions of all kinds.

How much of a fundamentalist do you have to be to consider 'most' SB to be liberal? Wow.... personally I won't go to very many SB Churchs because I find most to be way too fundamentalist.

However, I admit that the great thing about the 'true' Baptist Churches (of which SB is of course the main and largest) is actually the diversity in the pews. I'm American Baptist and we have all the way from Fundies to way left liberals sitting in the same pew each sunday. Our current Pastor is very conservative and I have no problem with that.

I like the old saying. "Put 3 baptist in the same room and you'll have 5 points of view" ;)

[thomashenry]

I seem to recall that it was extremist Al-Qaeda and it's followers that committed the violent acts of September 11th and declared it in the name of Islam, not Islam. Did 100% of Muslims worldwide stand up and cheer, raise their victory flags worldwide and rejoice?

So, if I, an extremist who commits a violent act and declare it in the name of Christianity, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism, Mormonism, Wicken, etc then these religions are bad or violent?

Then peaceful followers of the same religion(s) make plans to build a structure near the landmark makes it a victory shrine?

Do you recall a period in time that covered nearly 200 years called the crusades?

Ever hear the term guns don't kill people, people kill people?

I just love when people judge, and judge the whole based on the acts of a fraction.

McDonald's burgers taste like doo-doo, all burgers taste like doo-doo.


The apologist for acts of terrorism always seem to compare or use Christianity as a scapegoat, the barbaric acts on 9/11 in New York City & Shanksville Pa, and Washington DC were perpetrated by muslims, islamic fanatics, arabs ! plain & simple ! the Crusades were heinous and DENOUNCED and they were over 1000 years ago !, let me ask you in that time frame, what has islam brought to society ? compared to western culture lets just say in the last 100 years what has islam brought to the planet earth in comparison ? how many Nobels {don`t include the godfather of modern terrorism arafat may he rest in hell}, or Pulitzers, art, math, science, medicine, education, technology, industry, how many nations have been liberated, defended ? what has sharia brought to the table or wahabbis !

I could be wrong but the degradation of women is prevalent in islam, honor killings, maiming, by sexual butchering {clitorectomy} cutting off noses & ears, acid in the face , Schoolgirls burned, wearing the burka, in fact I just read about a stoning for a young couple, for adultry, imagine that in the WEST, decapitations in Saudi Arabia, there is currently a scenario where the Saudi courts are determining as to whether a man should have his spinal cord sugically damaged in reperation for harming another{ kinda like an eye for eye}---why no Churches or Synagogues in Saudi Arabia ?

Lets not mince words, you have AN AGENDA,, your moniker indicates that with the website you promote, you can twist and rationalize all you like, it really doesn`t matter to me ! in the Bible, I do not ever see a passage in regards to islam, or muhammed or the crecent moon god, now false gods yes perhaps they fall into that category, the true God, the one who Chose ISRAEL for his Chosen People and Jerusalem THEIR CAPITAL, the descendants of Abraham Issac & Jacob {you do know what Jacob Means} ! the true God, Yaweh, the Great I AM, The Lion of Juda, the Lamb of God, the Good Shepard, The Living Bread, the Meshiach, JESUS & by the way the only person in written history who Overcame Death---Kinda seperates him from the rest ! THE RESSURECTION, " Most Assuredly, I Say to you, before ABRAHAM was, I AM " also How come Jesus raised people from the Dead and performed other miracles, that were documented and witnessed and what about the other so called prohets ?

Where are & how many of the orginals of the koran ? compared to the Bible, lets just use the "dead sea scrolls" for comparison, and keep the New Testament alone, Lets just use the original of Homers Odyssey compared to the koran ! as far as the caaninites being banished from their land, I do believe the baal worship was Thier downfall implimented by a Righteous God after 400 years of perverse and insane living !

And yes Victory mosques, like the noble sanctuary, dome of the rock built upon THE TEMPLE MOUNT, or the hagia sophia in Turkey just a few examples, but not to worry, we already know who wins, in the end, JESUS CHRIST, the MESHIACH foretold hundred s of years before his Birth, so much so that for him to fulfill all of the prohecies about him to the letter, the math is 1 to the 13th trillion, imagine that


See again I could Care less about political correctness and apologists, believe what you like "as for me and my House, I will Serve the Lord ", ! & John 14:6 is not an ambiguous message, Jesus Says, "I AM the WAY the Truth & the Life, NO ONE comes to the Father,except through the SON" !--------Have a good day, oh and anytime you would like to share the Good News, I am more than willing with ANYONE