Layne's suggestion on meal frequency ? [Archive]

ChristianBBer

08-04-2010, 06:01 PM

Layne mentioned

" Eating 5-6x a day is no more metabolic stimulating than eating 8 times a day"

And then he mentioned

" Bulk dosing amino acids in those meal frequency times is more anabolic. and you don't feel as hunger"

I tried searching for any articles he has written about this but couldn't find anything.

Just wanting to confirm I heard/understood everything correctly. That infact I can start eating 4-5x a day and it'll be the same if not MORE anabolic in that sense?

Hope so :) Kinda getting tired eating 8x a day

Btw the quotes are paraphrased off of
http://videos.bodybuilding.com/watch/50781/layne-nortons-powerlifting-episode-5-golds-gym-vegas

NaturalLoco

08-04-2010, 06:30 PM

I am thinking eating more meals more frequently i.e every 2 hours will SLOWLY degenerate your ability to effectively absorb and regulate protein digestion.. that's why its recommended every 3-3.5 hours i.e. 5-6 meals a day

The Solution

08-04-2010, 06:36 PM

anti-steroids

08-04-2010, 06:49 PM

ChristianBBer

08-04-2010, 07:15 PM

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/research-review/meal-frequency-and-energy-balance-research-review.html#more-1389

www.xs4all.nl/~eleeuwaa/norton_AF2_09.PDF

a little bit of searching does a whole lot of good.....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19943985?ordinalpos=&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.SmartSearch&log$=citationsensor

Great thanks !

Read the first one, will read Laynes article tomorrow when Im more awake.

It seems as long as protein intake is adequate, the Thermal energetic effect (TEF) of foods is no different in 8 meals than 4 meals.

4 meals at 1000 calories has a 5% TEF = 50 calories burned x 4 meals = 200 TEF
8 meals at 500 calories each 5% TEF X 500 = 25 x 8 = 200 calories TEF

Its crazy how many staple advice I've followed for years is really untrue in a conditional sense.

Thanks for the links !

DavyGrolton

08-04-2010, 08:36 PM

This is a topic where I really think the broscience trumps the science in terms of practicality.

Bodybuilders have been eating 5/6/7/8 times a day for decades. Despite Layne's research indicating a possible negative effect on protein synthesis with such a high meal frequency, the best bodybuilders in the world - natural or otherwise - still maintain such frequency: Jay Cutler eats 7 meals a day in prep, Phil Heath 7-8 times a day, Doug Miller eats 6-7 times a day, Jeff Rodriguez up to 8 times a day, Jim Cordova eats every 1.5-2 hours and so on and so forth.

I'm not arguing that anything that Layne has claimed is factually wrong; I simply feel that at this point the science is largely irrelevant for most bodybuilders simply because of overall food volume and protein intake. On top of that training has a large effect as well; most people simply cannot consume enough nutrients in 3-4 meals to sustain twice daily lifting or lifting and cardio.

I recall Layne saying that he will occasionally train, go home and eat a meal and then hit the gym again a couple of hours later. Personally there is no way I can train twice in a day if I don't have at least three meals in between each session, preferably four.

jackedrabbit

08-04-2010, 08:43 PM

From my perspective, the only reason why I eat frequently is because I eat clean. Let me explain this.

For those who eat "dirtier" meals, these meals are packed and dense with calories. A few calorie dense meals per day and you can hit your calories.

For those who eat clean, we all know that clean foods are more filling, more nutritious, but often times fall short in calories compared to the same "bulk" of clean food.

Take 300 calories of jelly beans vs. 300 calories worth of dry oats. Which one will fill you up more?

So since I eat pretty clean, I need to eat frequently (to not feel so stuffed) to hit my calorie needs.

As for metabolism and all that jazz, I don't know and I could care less. I think some people make things way too complicated. Eat, train, take your vitamins, sleep and grow.

AlwaysTryin

08-04-2010, 09:25 PM

For those who eat "dirtier" meals, these meals are packed and dense with calories. A few calorie dense meals per day and you can hit your calories.

For those who eat clean, we all know that clean foods are more filling, more nutritious, but often times fall short in calories compared to the same "bulk" of clean food.

Take 300 calories of jelly beans vs. 300 calories worth of dry oats. Which one will fill you up more?

That seems to contradict...

to me 300 calories of dry oats (which would be the clean of the 2) would be way more filling that 300 calories of jelly beans (which wouldn't be many)

jackedrabbit

08-04-2010, 09:30 PM

That seems to contradict...

to me 300 calories of dry oats (which would be the clean of the 2) would be way more filling that 300 calories of jelly beans (which wouldn't be many)

It does not. Re read my post. Carefully.

jackedrabbit

08-04-2010, 09:31 PM

That seems to contradict...

to me 300 calories of dry oats (which would be the clean of the 2) would be way more filling that 300 calories of jelly beans (which wouldn't be many) <--- EXACTLY my point.

^^^

anti-steroids

08-04-2010, 09:59 PM

..so where is my soapbox?[*looks for soap box*]..yeaah here it is...me. mee k,Im ready eating 7,8 times a day is not a bad thing but if there is a better option why not take it? I Know for me when I switched over from eating 7+meals a day [every 2-3hrs]well for one felt like total crap,weak etc.. but again after my body became AND THIS IS A BIG THING HERE ADAPTED TO A REDUCED MEAL FREQUENCY I felt fine even when training 2xs a day[cheers to endogenous glucose]
for the record I eat 4-6times a day ...
even if the best bb in the world do it it does not make it optimal for my body or yours [And I think j-rod,as well as doug miller would agree ]its all about whats best for your individual body[6 meals,8,10] although as I stated earlier if there is a better option why not take it?
to think I at one point was all wrapped up in "oh I cant go out because I will miss a meal"
oh what time is it ?oh I just ate 2hrs ago cant eat for another 45min no thanks! lol
not to mention when you follow a reduced meal frequency your able to have larger meals
dont know bout you but I would much perfer larger meals over smaller more frequent ones

besides as long as you get enough pro/carbs/fat/fiber it likely wont matter much if at all
where your cals come from not to mention how often you take them in
although my vote is for less frequent meals
*gets off soap box*

fitmodeltrainer

08-04-2010, 10:14 PM

I like more frequent meals when cals are high and less frequent when low.

Cumulonimbus

08-04-2010, 10:40 PM

Well Layne suggests 4-5 meals a day because his studies showed that protein synthesis has to peak and return to a baseline, which takes time to digest, reach a max peak and then return. Basically he said that it can be stimulated up to 6 times a day. Fukc hope I'm typing properly, I've been awake for over 24 hours flying from Toronto to Denmark then to Poland all while sh!t-faced on my airplane LOL. Hurray for drinking only twice to three times a year.

ErickStevens

08-05-2010, 03:43 AM

I follow the Layne template for 4 meals per day with BCAAs in between.

ChristianBBer

08-05-2010, 06:33 AM

Ok, I got to reading Laynes article.

A lot of terminology I don't know but I got the gist of it. If anyone else has read it or Layne himself could take a look at these statements I formulated and let me knwo if they're correct I'll appreciate it.

1. Eating a meal high in LEUCINE (.05g/kg) per meal is the most efficient dosing to produce MPS ( Skeleton MUSCLE Protein Synthesis)

If so, what types of food has the highest Leucine content ? Steak ? Chicken ? Tuna ? Eggs ?

Edit nvm, I didn't even see the conclusion part

The amount of protein required at a meal to
achieve this outcome will differ based on the leucine
content of the protein source with leucine rich protein
sources like dairy, egg, meats and poultry being preferable
to leucine poor sources of protein such as wheat.

2. Eating (0.05g/kg) of Leucine will eventually create a “refractory” response of mps to prolonged
elevations in plasma amino acids. MPS peaks highest till 180 minutes and follows a linear path ith insulin as it lowers.... Therfore on the 300 minute mark ( 5 hours) it's best to spike your bike with (0.05g/kg) of Leucine to promote conquer over the "refractory response" ?

Lamense terms, eat high protein ( high Leucine content) meals every 5 hours. As eating every 3 hours won't conquer refractedness as much as eating every 5 hours.

Thus, in order to
avoid refractoriness and maximize mps it may be best to
consume larger doses of protein
that contain sufficient leucine to
maximize mtor signalling and mps
while allowing enough time (4-6
hours) for post prandial amino acid
levels to fall in between meals in
order to re-sensitize the system.

3. In your quote

Insulin may, at least in part, explain the refractory
nature of mps to constant elevations in plasma
amino acids.

Basically this means insulin in part helps explain why constant elevations of amino acids in the blood may cause a "refractory" effect on MPS. As in, having constant elevated levels of amnio acids is not optimal ?

Refractory - temporarily unresponsive or not fully responsive to nervous or sexual stimuli; "the refractory period of a muscle fiber"

4. And this is where you research originated when recommending we sip "xtend" inbetween meals

According to the protein stat
theory, a second nutritional
intervention which may overcome
refractoriness is to create a
supraphysiological rise in plasma
amino acid levels between meals.
A free form amino acid supplement
would likely be rapidly digested
and empty into the bloodstream
quickly, potentially elevating plasma amino acid levels
above their meal induced plateau.

5. Now this is I'm curious about

Finally, it may also be
advantageous to consume a carbohydrate source between
high protein meals if insulin does in in fact play a role in mps
becoming refractory.

"Between high protein meals " ? So if Insulin does int fact play a role in MPS, consuming a carbohydrate meal, inbetween protein meals, will simultaneously keep the MSP levels at or higher than the meal plateau ? Basically you're saying Insulin " in theory" is linear with MPS, + Insulin = + MPS ?

Please let us know of any new articles/research you've published

Thanks !

ChristianBBer

08-05-2010, 07:00 AM

This just came to me,

You mentioned there is a possibility that an insulin spike will be linear with MPS.

Higher insulin, higher MPS.

I know MPS has a cap, so you can't eat a 1lb of dextrose and expect a higher MPS becuase of it however, is MPS effected by the "duration" of the insulin spike?

If the theory is true insulin mimicks MPS, would a high insulin spike ( say a tablespoon 30g of dextrose) be any beneficial than a bowl of oatmeal ?

Granted, a bowl of oatmeal will have a longer insulin spike, but will it be higher? And since this carbohydrate meal is inebetween 2 meals, it'll only be about 2-3 hours until the next meal therfore does the "duration" of an insulin spike really matter as opposed to the "volatility" of a spike ?

DavyGrolton

08-05-2010, 07:56 AM

IrishPilot

08-05-2010, 08:08 AM

I seriously think that you are overthinking this.

I have to agree. Of all the things that we get to/need to be so specific about, I think meal timing and size is the least important. I have absolutely no scientific proof to back this up, but it seems people have success with every side of the spectrum (ie IFasting, 8x meals, 4x meals, etc.)

Due to work constraints etc. Ive been eating 4 small meals a day and one really large one prebed in this past few weeks of my prep. Ive noticed no major change in fat loss, energy, gym performance etc.

Do what fits your schedule, what works for you, and what you enjoy. If we are "voting", I prefer 6x meals a day (8am, 10am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, prebed.) When you are consuming less than 2ooo cals a day like I am, it still feels like you get to eat often, and having been consuming lots of broccoli etc. I generally dont feel too hungry. Every once in awhile (usually 1-2 days a week) I have a day wherein my hunger is simply through the roof all day...but this has been happening the whole time Im on deficit...no matter the macros, cals, what bodypart I lifted that day, etc.

YMMV. You are like me ChristianBBer. "Paralysis by Analysis" as they say.

fltallpaul

08-05-2010, 09:45 AM

When I initially started tracking my diet I did the 2.5 to 3 hour meal plan. I found this to be very difficult to maintain with a busy schedule. I did this through my first contest prep. The second time around after speaking with Layne I used to 4-5 hour approach and liked it much better. I was able to eat larger meals and dose BCAA's in between meals. I was also not as hungry as I was taking in food every 2-3 hours.

I still time my meals around my workouts with my most important meals being upon waking, pre and post workout.

Zarazen

08-05-2010, 10:00 AM

for myself, during my prep i just liked knowing that my next meal was 2-3 hours away. It didn't matter if it was a big meal or a small one and it didn't bother me having to bring my food around with me. Now in the off-season I am up to 8 meals a day, eat every 2-2.5 hours and love it.

ErickStevens

08-05-2010, 12:19 PM

4 meals per day also works better for satiety. It's much more satisfying eating four 500 calorie meals than 6-7 smaller meals on my low carb days.

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 12:44 AM

I seriously think that you are overthinking this.

Insulin is anabolic by nature so of course if blood insulin is elevated then protein synthesis is going to be elevated but that doesn't necessarily mean that one should purposefully try to elevate insulin over long periods of time.

1) insulin is not anabolic in the physiological range and protein synthesis is NOT linear with insulin. Insulin in the physiological range will sensitize the response to amino acids but it is not anabolic in and of itself. There are many studies showing a high dose of carbs does not increase protein synthesis

2) people used to *accept* the fact the world was flat about 600 years ago, even though science said otherwise. I'm just saying :)

and I wonder how many of you purporting 8 meals per day and more frequency have actually TRIED it both ways. I have. I know the difference scientifically, I know the difference metabolically, and I've seen/felt the difference with myself and many clients. This isn't just lab science, I've done plenty of practical application with this as well, so let's not pretend I'm just some nerd in a lab coat who's never put something to use in real life ok :)

Zarazen

08-06-2010, 03:58 AM

1) insulin is not anabolic in the physiological range and protein synthesis is NOT linear with insulin. Insulin in the physiological range will sensitize the response to amino acids but it is not anabolic in and of itself. There are many studies showing a high dose of carbs does not increase protein synthesis

2) people used to *accept* the fact the world was flat about 600 years ago, even though science said otherwise. I'm just saying :)

and I wonder how many of you purporting 8 meals per day and more frequency have actually TRIED it both ways. I have. I know the difference scientifically, I know the difference metabolically, and I've seen/felt the difference with myself and many clients. This isn't just lab science, I've done plenty of practical application with this as well, so let's not pretend I'm just some nerd in a lab coat who's never put something to use in real life ok :)

8 meals works for me because I get way too full and uncomfortable from eating 4 bigger meals each day.

So what you suggest is

Breakfast - 5g BCAAs
5AM - Meal 1
7AM - 5-10g BCAAs
9AM - Meal 2
11AM - 5-10g BCAAs
2PM - Meal 3
4PM - 5-10g BCAAs
6PM - Meal 4
8PM - 5-10g BCAAs
10PM - Meal 5
Before Bed - 5g BCAAs

??

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 06:55 AM

pretty much, I also eat in the middle of the night when i wake up to go to the bathroom (like clockwork every night lol)

DavyGrolton

08-06-2010, 07:05 AM

1) insulin is not anabolic in the physiological range and protein synthesis is NOT linear with insulin. Insulin in the physiological range will sensitize the response to amino acids but it is not anabolic in and of itself. There are many studies showing a high dose of carbs does not increase protein synthesis

Of course.

2) people used to *accept* the fact the world was flat about 600 years ago, even though science said otherwise. I'm just saying :)

and I wonder how many of you purporting 8 meals per day and more frequency have actually TRIED it both ways. I have. I know the difference scientifically, I know the difference metabolically, and I've seen/felt the difference with myself and many clients. This isn't just lab science, I've done plenty of practical application with this as well, so let's not pretend I'm just some nerd in a lab coat who's never put something to use in real life ok :)

Again good luck finding any other top pro in natty or untested bodybuilding that only eats 4 or 5 times a day. Normally I lean more towards science than personal experience but in this case I have to disagree. The whole concept of trying to maximize protein synthesis by decreasing meal frequency and adding in a huge amount of BCAA supplementation just seems to be 1) a bit of a stretch considering the research isn't as conclusive as you make it out to be and 2) a sales pitch as you are sponsored by a company whose biggest profit comes in the form of a BCAA product.

Calorie and macro intake is what matters at the end of the day and again, for most bodybuilders four or five meals a day is not going to cut it. Personally I feel like absolute **** eating every 3.5 to 5 hours.

anti-steroids

08-06-2010, 07:08 AM

why the bcaas before breakfast / meal 1?

here is what I Do for the most part give of take a 5th meal if im up late

meal1
bcaa 5grms
meal2
bcaas 5gms
meal 3
bcaas 5grms
meal 4
bcaas 5grms

anti-steroids

08-06-2010, 07:09 AM

Zarazen

08-06-2010, 07:10 AM

pretty much, I also eat in the middle of the night when i wake up to go to the bathroom (like clockwork every night lol)

LOL i can't even stand properly to piss let alone eat. So you actually have a meal or just some BCAAs?

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 07:48 AM

Of course.

Again good luck finding any other top pro in natty or untested bodybuilding that only eats 4 or 5 times a day. Normally I lean more towards science than personal experience but in this case I have to disagree. The whole concept of trying to maximize protein synthesis by decreasing meal frequency and adding in a huge amount of BCAA supplementation just seems to be 1) a bit of a stretch considering the research isn't as conclusive as you make it out to be and 2) a sales pitch as you are sponsored by a company whose biggest profit comes in the form of a BCAA product.

Calorie and macro intake is what matters at the end of the day and again, for most bodybuilders four or five meals a day is not going to cut it. Personally I feel like absolute **** eating every 3.5 to 5 hours.
sales pitch?

i actually recommend less BCAAs via my method than what scivation suggests typically, so how exactly does that work. Also our lab's latest experiment shows using leucine between meals extended the protein synthesis response to a meal. Look if you want to disagree with me that's fine, but don't try to act like I'm just making stuff up.

And saying "this is what everybody does so it must be right"

if that is truly your substantiation behind it then there's not much I can reply to that with other than just because most people do it, doesn't make it right. The bodybuilding community in particular is driven by dogma and extremes. Just look at the ridiculous final week protocols that do not work, but continue to be used.

you actually tried eating every 3.5-5 hours? for how long? You are pretty young, when you were eating like this was it before or after you started bodybuilding?

there is an adaptation period that is needed, if you are used to eating every 2-3 hours and you extend that period at first you will feel it, but once your body adapts you will be fine and actually have very little hunger as your body will rely less on exogenous glucose and becomes more adept at up regulating it's own endogenous production of glucose, helping to maintain more stable levels of blood glucose and keeping hunger more controlled

by the way, i work with several top tier natty pros who follow these protocols. :)

DanTheManB

08-06-2010, 08:29 AM

sales pitch?

i actually recommend less BCAAs via my method than what scivation suggests typically, so how exactly does that work. Also our lab's latest experiment shows using leucine between meals extended the protein synthesis response to a meal. Look if you want to disagree with me that's fine, but don't try to act like I'm just making stuff up.

And saying "this is what everybody does so it must be right"

if that is truly your substantiation behind it then there's not much I can reply to that with other than just because most people do it, doesn't make it right. The bodybuilding community in particular is driven by dogma and extremes. Just look at the ridiculous final week protocols that do not work, but continue to be used.

you actually tried eating every 3.5-5 hours? for how long? You are pretty young, when you were eating like this was it before or after you started bodybuilding?

there is an adaptation period that is needed, if you are used to eating every 2-3 hours and you extend that period at first you will feel it, but once your body adapts you will be fine and actually have very little hunger as your body will rely less on exogenous glucose and becomes more adept at up regulating it's own endogenous production of glucose, helping to maintain more stable levels of blood glucose and keeping hunger more controlled

by the way, i work with several top tier natty pros who follow these protocols. :)

Not that I'm anyone in particular but I have tested this with 4 meals spaced out and inbetween some xtend as well as IF where I had 2 main meals (1 upon waking and 1 prebed with a postworkout shake and xtend in between) and it works amazingly. There is some adaptation needed at first but I actually felt much better doing this.

Cumulonimbus

08-06-2010, 09:13 AM

LOL i can't even stand properly to piss let alone eat. So you actually have a meal or just some BCAAs?

I think he mentioned he has a shake, not sure if that's right or if he adds any carbs or fats to that as well.

DavyGrolton

08-06-2010, 10:59 AM

sales pitch?

i actually recommend less BCAAs via my method than what scivation suggests typically, so how exactly does that work. Also our lab's latest experiment shows using leucine between meals extended the protein synthesis response to a meal. Look if you want to disagree with me that's fine, but don't try to act like I'm just making stuff up.

And saying "this is what everybody does so it must be right"

if that is truly your substantiation behind it then there's not much I can reply to that with other than just because most people do it, doesn't make it right. The bodybuilding community in particular is driven by dogma and extremes. Just look at the ridiculous final week protocols that do not work, but continue to be used.

you actually tried eating every 3.5-5 hours? for how long? You are pretty young, when you were eating like this was it before or after you started bodybuilding?

there is an adaptation period that is needed, if you are used to eating every 2-3 hours and you extend that period at first you will feel it, but once your body adapts you will be fine and actually have very little hunger as your body will rely less on exogenous glucose and becomes more adept at up regulating it's own endogenous production of glucose, helping to maintain more stable levels of blood glucose and keeping hunger more controlled

by the way, i work with several top tier natty pros who follow these protocols. :)

yeah I still don't see why using endogenous glucose is necessarily more efficient than just eating often enough to ensure the presence of exogenous glucose

edit: And how many times have you said to combine carbs with BCAAs to allow for an insulin response? Basically making the whole exogenous vs endogenous glucose debate a moot point.

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 11:30 AM

i said to combine them in the offseason for optimal stimulation, not during precontest.

endogenous glucose production 1) requires energy which is better for fat burning & thermogenesis 2) whereas exogenous glucose means you are taking it in which keeps you in an absorptive state longer & more frequently which is going to cause a greater inhibition of lipolysis and 3) endogenous liver production of glucose is more steady and makes it so if you go more than 2 hours without a meal you don't crash and 4) as stated before, evidence suggests spacing meals out further may be better for optimal protein synthesis stimulation

I mean it's not like I did research in this or have lifting anything heavy or have ever prepped anybody or anything :)

DavyGrolton

08-06-2010, 11:38 AM

So you take two guys and give them identical diets with the exception of meal frequency and body composition changes will theoretically be different?

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 11:54 AM

triplewhammy

08-06-2010, 01:04 PM

I follow the Layne template for 4 meals per day with BCAAs in between.

This.

/thread :cool:

triplewhammy

08-06-2010, 01:12 PM

i think you may see slightly faster fat loss & just as much if not more muscle retention. Additionally you have the convenience of not having to eat every 2 hours and take a cooler everywhere.

If I didn't think it made a difference, I wouldn't recommend it

This approach has been phenomenal for me. Although there are several factors at work, I have had better gains in the past 2 years than the 5 before that and switching up my diet to your method is one of those factors.

Not to mention, the mental break from the cooler and pressure of timing my meals so tight has been amazing....

Josh

ChristianBBer

08-06-2010, 04:02 PM

Cool little tid bit I found in one of Laynes Articles

Just goes to show how easy it is for anyone and everyone to fall into the common "stigma" of bodybuilding rules. And how prevailing research reveals the exploits in what was once considered a staple guideline.

Don't go more than 3 hours without protein. You want to keep a positive nitrogen balance and eating every 3 hours ensures this. This is where the dedication part comes in to play. Many times I've brought protein shakes to college parties so I could get my protein fix. I also bring weight gainer shakes to my rugby games to prevent myself from going into calorie deficit. If you play football, hockey, soccer or any kind of sport that requires you to burn a lot of calories you'll need to make sure you account for these burnt calories in your daily totals. Try mixing a weight gainer up with water and put it in your bottle (your coach won't be able to see it this way).

Eat 6-8 meals. This gives your body a steady stream of nutrients and it also tricks your body so it stores less fat.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne2.htm

I also found a quote in Chris Aceto's Bodybuilding book

Smaller meals spread over a day usually 2 1/2 to 3 hours allow you to eat a "lesser" amount of carbs at any one meal. Carbs are the chief releaser of insulin. Too many carbs eaten in one sitting can cause an elevated spike in insulin which can contribute to fat storage . Smaller meals modify insulin output which can potentially lead to a leaner yet more muscular physic

Im not arguing anyone Im just pointing out a lot of different facts and viewpoints.

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 04:36 PM

Wrote that about 7 years ago lol

devo09

08-06-2010, 04:49 PM

davy>layne

...

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;)

DanTheManB

08-06-2010, 04:50 PM

davy>layne

...

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;)

I lol'd hard

DavyGrolton

08-06-2010, 05:35 PM

Cool little tid bit I found in one of Laynes Articles

Just goes to show how easy it is for anyone and everyone to fall into the common "stigma" of bodybuilding rules. And how prevailing research reveals the exploits in what was once considered a staple guideline.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne2.htm

I also found a quote in Chris Aceto's Bodybuilding book

Im not arguing anyone Im just pointing out a lot of different facts and viewpoints.

Chris Aceto has a PhD in broscience. Most of what he writes is straight up BS.

ChristianBBer

08-06-2010, 06:15 PM

Chris Aceto has a PhD in broscience. Most of what he writes is straight up BS.

No offense bro but instead of making "subjective" comments about another Professional in the field why not back it up by disproving his statements ?

And Layne, I didn't quote you to prove you contradicted yourself, I was just showing how easy it easy to get confused with the VAST amount of knoweldge on this website.

DavyGrolton

08-06-2010, 06:23 PM

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 07:59 PM

No offense bro but instead of making "subjective" comments about another Professional in the field why not back it up by disproving his statements ?

And Layne, I didn't quote you to prove you contradicted yourself, I was just showing how easy it easy to get confused with the VAST amount of knoweldge on this website.

oh I know that dude and I agree with you. I used to recommend all sorts of the same old **** that everyone else did way back before I started doing my own research and experimentation. I was too afraid to go outside my comfort zone back then. I'm so glad I did because if I never had I never would have gotten to where I am physique wise or as a coach. I am fortunate to have had good people influence me along the way to think outside the box

MattyH7688

08-06-2010, 08:28 PM

Chris Aceto has a PhD in broscience. Most of what he writes is straight up BS.

which is why he only trains top amateurs and pros. Must be a terrible trainer :rolleyes:

DavyGrolton

08-06-2010, 09:08 PM

which is why he only trains top amateurs and pros. Must be a terrible trainer :rolleyes:

yeah he's great I guess that's why his #1 client dropped him

str8flexed

08-06-2010, 09:28 PM

let's be fair here, I don't know Chris or how he coaches, but it takes 2 to tango, and while coaches tend to get too much credit when their athletes do well, they also get too much blame when they don't in most cases

Ryanmckd

08-06-2010, 11:02 PM

Can someone inform me if "pre-Bed" meals are important? or as long as i hit macros for the day it doesn't matter?

I eat 4 meals a day

Breakfast 7am

Lunch Midday

Pre W/o 4pm

Post W/o 6-7pm

Bed by 10ish

Do i need that pre bed meal?

I think i know what the answerss going to be but may as well re assure myself

AlwaysTryin

08-07-2010, 12:36 AM

I eat 4 meals a day

Breakfast 7am

Lunch Midday

Pre W/o 4pm

Post W/o 6-7pm

Bed by 10ish

isn't that 5 meals??

Ryanmckd

08-07-2010, 12:51 AM

isn't that 5 meals??

Breakfast, Lunch, Pre and Post Workout and then i'm IN BED by 10pm, not bedtime meal at 10pm.

str8flexed

08-07-2010, 06:22 AM

Withoutreason

08-07-2010, 06:49 AM

how long do you sleep?

10pm - 7pm = 9 hours

I bet he eats his breakfast within an hour of waking up, therefore he sleeps for 8-9 hours

str8flexed

08-07-2010, 07:31 AM

so why not just eat breakfast right when you wake up, move everything back an hour and then have a meal before bed :)

masterjackblack

08-07-2010, 11:53 AM

yeah he's great I guess that's why his #1 client dropped him

I usually don't post on here, I just subscribe to the interesting threads and try to absorb as much as I can from the elite guys who are so generous with their time and knowledge. Seriously Davy you need to chill son, take a step back and show a bit more respect. Every time I see you posting your giving out, it's not big and clever to make frankly quite poor inflammatory arguments with pros.

By the way I eat 4/5 meals with xtend or a similar BCAA mix in-between. It was hard at first but you do feel less hungry after you adapt to the schedule. I'm just getting started tinkering with bodybuilding style training, but I do tested raw powerlifting and have a raw 3xBW deadlift. I hope to win the next national single lift champs in the UK and compete at worlds. I'll definitely be hiring Layne in the future, I've been a huge fan for years and have learnt more from him than anyone.

DREhova 87

08-07-2010, 12:05 PM

yeah he's great I guess that's why his #1 client dropped him

Yep he sucks for sure...Thats why I was only able to lose 80lbs using his method and not 100lbs. What a weak suck. These moderate carb/high protein/low fat diets are a bunch of BS. :)

DanTheManB

08-07-2010, 02:26 PM

I usually don't post on here, I just subscribe to the interesting threads and try to absorb as much as I can from the elite guys who are so generous with their time and knowledge. Seriously Davy you need to chill son, take a step back and show a bit more respect. Every time I see you posting your giving out, it's not big and clever to make frankly quite poor inflammatory arguments with pros.

truth. reps on recharge

co1e_train

08-07-2010, 07:33 PM

Hey everyone whats up,

So im going to give this form of eating a shot. I also don't like the stress of packing meals and taking food places and worrying about it etc etc.

I do have question that I didn't see talked about when I leafed through the thread. I am curious on what the opinion or word is on the amount of nutrients taking in at a time, particularly protein and how much are bodies can digest/utilize in one meal. I know this is sommething I remember Layne saying you (he) wanted to figure out in his studies but havnt read if he (you) came to a answer.

Example: My protein macro is 260g and so if I eat 4-5 times a day, following the every 4 hours or about, i would then need to eat 50-60g at each meal. Will any of that be wasted in that the body wont digest it all? Or is it no big deal and doenst really effect results? I dont know alot about nutrient digestion and exactly how much our bodies use (heard that the body can only put like 10g of protein into the muscle cells themselves a day and therefore the high amount of protein makes it optimal?).

Something could be similarly said about the amount of fat and carbs intake at each meal and how those two together would effect fat gain.

Sorry for wall O text.

-the train

DavyGrolton

08-07-2010, 08:59 PM

Yep he sucks for sure...Thats why I was only able to lose 80lbs using his method and not 100lbs. What a weak suck. These moderate carb/high protein/low fat diets are a bunch of BS. :)

of course Aceto understands the basics as well as anyone else

but when you start to get into nutritional science it becomes obvious that his knowledge is less than stellar

someone like Layne or Alan Aragon is clearly far more qualified in this field

Vai

08-07-2010, 09:21 PM

Saw a video with Markus Ruhl that said he only ate 4 meals a day. Just throwin' it out there.

DREhova 87

08-07-2010, 10:29 PM

of course Aceto understands the basics as well as anyone else

but when you start to get into nutritional science it becomes obvious that his knowledge is less than stellar

someone like Layne or Alan Aragon is clearly far more qualified in this field

I would agree. But I also think its unfair to say his stuff is BS.

AlwaysTryin

08-07-2010, 10:48 PM

Surely a large majority of the people who are stressing over 4 v 5 meals could better put their time into ensuring they are putting 110% into their training and making the most
of everything and making sure their nutrition has a purpose

Just saying I think a lot of people stress so much over minor details when their training etc isn't on point

Quelly

08-09-2010, 08:10 PM

I have experimented with 8+ meals a day when I first started, then 4-6 meals a day for the longest time, after layne published his research I kept it at 4-5, and recently after some of the intermittent fasting research was put together on leangains I tried that for a month (3 meals in an 8 hour period, fast for the rest of the day). I didn't notice much of a difference between any of the protocols, but what i realized is the amount of emphasis the bbing community puts on meal frequency and its need to be high is purely dogma and makes only a small difference. You are probably 99% perfect if you eat pre and post workout, and hit your macros for the day. Beyond that, I think you're mostly splitting hairs.

That being said....the only meal frequency that has any appreciable research behind it on its effects on protein synthesis is Layne's recommended frequency. So, if all appears equal anecdotally, I would personally lean towards what is backed by research.

MattyH7688

08-09-2010, 08:18 PM

of course Aceto understands the basics as well as anyone else

but when you start to get into nutritional science it becomes obvious that his knowledge is less than stellar

someone like Layne or Alan Aragon is clearly far more qualified in this field

which one has had Mr. Olympia clients and many top IFBB pros? Clearly Aceto knows a little more than "the basics".

AlwaysTryin

08-09-2010, 09:30 PM

Trillios

08-09-2010, 09:58 PM

I too agree,

I have tried all of these and found that intermittent fasting worked better for me (not for the gains) due to not thinking about food constantly and having to plan meals etc. It made my evenings more flexible and I could decide what I wanted to cook up when I got home out of everything in the house etc

X 3...and I'm the noob around here :).

ChristianBBer

08-15-2010, 03:53 PM

I've finally adapted to eating every 4.5-5 hours.

I love it however, to get my protein requirements in I usually eat around 50-60g of protein

Can the body digest these amounts of protein just fine ?

I read a few articles and found these excerpts

If you notice side effects, but you haven’t recently increased your protein intake, then it’s too high per meal. Side effects of your protein not digesting properly could include; very bad gas, diarrhea, or nausea.

http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/how-much-protein-can-we-digest-in-one-meal/

I never have these symptoms

, even after eating lbs of steak.

Your body will digest all that you give it. If it didn't, I could eat 500g of protein in one sitting and not gain any weight. That number is a myth. There is a point where your body will stop utilizing protein to repair/rebuild muscle and use it for other processes, such as gluconeogenesis, etc. but there is no universal number that your body will follow. Everyone is different.

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?69837-How-much-protein-can-be-digested-in-one-sitting

With this statement, I'm wondering will the insulin spike due to protein ,and its corresponding protein synthesis be proportional to the amount digested? As in, if I eat a ****load of protein in one sitting, will the protein synthesis, transportation, and it's process be any different than had I consumed 10g of protein ?

3. Protein doesn't digest all at once, especially with meals. Think about it this way, your stomach doesn't process and send out everything it digests all at once. It works on some, then sends some on its way. This applies more to meals than protein drinks but the fact remains, your body doesn't digest a whole meal all at once. It digest a little at a time. Think of it like time-release vitamin - your body doesn't use the whole all at once but uses it over the course of the entire digestion

With this notion, these large protein meals will hold a higher and longer protein synthesis over time?

Thanks.

NaturalLoco

08-15-2010, 10:19 PM

which one has had Mr. Olympia clients and many top IFBB pros? Clearly Aceto knows a little more than "the basics".

just because he has good clients; dosn't necessarily make him the be all and end all..

I do agree he obviously would have to know his **** to have that caliber of clients

TPlain23

08-16-2010, 12:18 PM

wow, after reading this thread im currently.....confused. Gives me a lot to tinker with for the years to come though

Quelly

08-16-2010, 02:28 PM

I've finally adapted to eating every 4.5-5 hours.

I love it however, to get my protein requirements in I usually eat around 50-60g of protein

Can the body digest these amounts of protein just fine ?

I read a few articles and found these excerpts

http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/how-much-protein-can-we-digest-in-one-meal/

I never have these symptoms

, even after eating lbs of steak.

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?69837-How-much-protein-can-be-digested-in-one-sitting

With this statement, I'm wondering will the insulin spike due to protein ,and its corresponding protein synthesis be proportional to the amount digested? As in, if I eat a ****load of protein in one sitting, will the protein synthesis, transportation, and it's process be any different than had I consumed 10g of protein ?

With this notion, these large protein meals will hold a higher and longer protein synthesis over time?

Thanks.

None of the articles you presented have any hard data in them. There have been studies on eating one large meal vs multiple meals with no difference. If the body couldn't absorb and digest protein in large doses we would have died out during an ice age where all we could do was find and hunt one or two large animals in a week's time to eat.

str8flexed

08-16-2010, 03:20 PM

Turkish1530

08-16-2010, 10:08 PM

that's correct, the whole 'you can't absorb more than X amount in one sitting' is BS. If you load up on protein your body just slows gastric emptying to accomodate it. Additionally, if it was true that you could only absorb a certain amount at a sitting than anytime you went over that amount you would have massive massive diarrhea.

Hey layne I am very interested in this style of eating....Never really heard of it or applied it myself but would be willing 2 give it a try. What would you recommend as far as a split goes eating for an entire day? Obvioulsy not the exact food for each meal, just the time periods and the foods you personally would recommend throughout the day.

ErickStevens

08-17-2010, 03:29 AM

Hey layne I am very interested in this style of eating....Never really heard of it or applied it myself but would be willing 2 give it a try. What would you recommend as far as a split goes eating for an entire day? Obvioulsy not the exact food for each meal, just the time periods and the foods you personally would recommend throughout the day.

I'm not Layne, but as one of his loyal disciples I'll chime in and share how I do it:

7AM: 5g BCAAs
8AM: Meal (~500cal)
10AM: 5g BCAAs / Training
12PM: 10g BCAAs /PWO Meal (~500cal)
2PM: 5g BCAAs
4PM: Meal (~300cal)
6PM: 5g BCAAs
8PM: Meal (~700cal)

Turkish1530

08-17-2010, 12:51 PM

I'm not Layne, but as one of his loyal disciples I'll chime in and share how I do it:

7AM: 5g BCAAs
8AM: Meal (~500cal)
10AM: 5g BCAAs / Training
12PM: 10g BCAAs /PWO Meal (~500cal)
2PM: 5g BCAAs
4PM: Meal (~300cal)
6PM: 5g BCAAs
8PM: Meal (~700cal)

Thanks. Very interesting BCAA's first thing in the AM then waiting an hour to eat. Also I'm soo accustomed to having a protein shake with oats Pre-workout, I would expect to not have as much energy during my training.

After training is there some kind of protein shake with carbs included with the BCAA's and then a meal after a short bout of time?--If not that wouldn't make much sense to me, there have been a lot of studies that have proven the major importance of a fast acting protein/carb within 30 minutes after training. Then another quality meal with protein/carbs within an hour or so.

The whole idea of spacing your meals out with a BCAA in between sounds like a good idea but looking at it, it seems very hard for me personally to make it fit my meal plan, especially considering i would never get rid of my Pre/post-workout meals because I feel they are extremely important in making progress.

str8flexed

08-17-2010, 12:56 PM

who said you would be getting rid of your PWO meal?

tinywrist

08-17-2010, 12:59 PM

I'm not Layne, but as one of his loyal disciples I'll chime in and share how I do it:

7AM: 5g BCAAs
8AM: Meal (~500cal)
10AM: 5g BCAAs / Training
12PM: 10g BCAAs /PWO Meal (~500cal)
2PM: 5g BCAAs
4PM: Meal (~300cal)
6PM: 5g BCAAs
8PM: Meal (~700cal)

Is this your cut diet meal plan? I tried eating only 2000 calories in a day once, and I thought I was going to die of hunger.

ErickStevens

08-17-2010, 01:05 PM

Is this your cut diet meal plan? I tried eating only 2000 calories in a day once, and I thought I was going to die of hunger.

Yup, I'm 10 weeks out. I'm not suffering at all, besides: Hunger is just fat leaving the body. ;)

str8flexed

08-17-2010, 01:05 PM

Is this your cut diet meal plan? I tried eating only 2000 calories in a day once, and I thought I was going to die of hunger.

well yea, you are also an ectomorph

tinywrist

08-17-2010, 01:09 PM

Yup, I'm 10 weeks out. I'm not suffering at all, besides: Hunger is just fat leaving the body. ;)

Ha, I like that one.

well yea, you are also an ectomorph

Dont remind me! :)

ErickStevens

08-17-2010, 01:13 PM

Ha, I like that one.

Dont remind me! :)

< Super endo. Count your blessings brah.

Turkish1530

08-17-2010, 10:22 PM

who said you would be getting rid of your PWO meal?

I never said that I would be getting rid of my PWO meal. I asked if there was a protein shake with fast digesting carbs PWO. I also said: "If not that wouldn't make much sense to me, there have been a lot of studies that have proven the major importance of a fast acting protein/carb within 30 minutes after training. Then another quality meal with protein/carbs within an hour or so."

From the way he explained a typical setup only showed a PWO meal and then there wasn't another meal for another 4 hours.

10AM: 5g BCAAs / Training
12PM: 10g BCAAs /PWO Meal (~500cal)
2PM: 5g BCAAs
4PM: Meal (~300cal)

Quelly

08-17-2010, 10:26 PM

I never said that I would be getting rid of my PWO meal. I asked if there was a protein shake with fast digesting carbs PWO. I also said: "If not that wouldn't make much sense to me, there have been a lot of studies that have proven the major importance of a fast acting protein/carb within 30 minutes after training. Then another quality meal with protein/carbs within an hour or so."

From the way he explained a typical setup only showed a PWO meal and then there wasn't another meal for another 4 hours.

10AM: 5g BCAAs / Training
12PM: 10g BCAAs /PWO Meal (~500cal)
2PM: 5g BCAAs
4PM: Meal (~300cal)

there are studies showing the benefit of a PWO meal, but there aren't any studies to my knowledge showing the benefit of eating another meal very soon after that PWO meal.

btw....the studies showing the benefits of the "post workout window" meal were all done in a fasted state, so it is currently thought that the post workout meal only becomes highly important when one doesn't have a pre workout meal. I think a solid preworkout meal is more important for improving recovery and aiding the anabolic effects of training more than a postworkout meal if you consider digestion time.

ErickStevens

08-18-2010, 02:10 AM

No, I don't see a need for a shake w/ fast digesting carbs PWO. I've only got a budget of ~2000 calories, so the last thing I want to do is drink my food.

AlwaysTryin

08-18-2010, 03:38 AM

No, I don't see a need for a shake w/ fast digesting carbs PWO. I've only got a budget of ~2000 calories, so the last thing I want to do is drink my food.

I too agree with you, I'm on 1800 and in no way does a liquid diet or anything liquid sound appealing for keeping me full in that 1800 calories lol

str8flexed

08-18-2010, 07:07 AM

bballbrett5

08-18-2010, 07:15 AM

there are studies showing the benefit of a PWO meal, but there aren't any studies to my knowledge showing the benefit of eating another meal very soon after that PWO meal.

btw....the studies showing the benefits of the "post workout window" meal were all done in a fasted state, so it is currently thought that the post workout meal only becomes highly important when one doesn't have a pre workout meal. I think a solid preworkout meal is more important for improving recovery and aiding the anabolic effects of training more than a postworkout meal if you consider digestion time.

Sorry no hijack but I was thinking in the next couple of weeks due to scheduling to train very early in the morning on an empty stomach just with a preWO supplement and some Xtend. Are you saying this would be a bad idea?

str8flexed

08-18-2010, 07:33 AM

i would not train fasted

DavyGrolton

08-18-2010, 04:17 PM

If not that wouldn't make much sense to me, there have been a lot of studies that have proven the major importance of a fast acting protein/carb within 30 minutes after training. Then another quality meal with protein/carbs within an hour or so.

Links to said studies?

Let me know when you realize they don't exist.

Backtothestack

08-19-2010, 12:45 AM

Saw a video with Markus Ruhl that said he only ate 4 meals a day. Just throwin' it out there.

4 meals, in between massive GH shots :O

Cumulonimbus

08-19-2010, 03:00 AM

Turkish1530

08-19-2010, 02:18 PM

so? lol

thanks for the explanation.

str8flexed

08-19-2010, 03:18 PM

well you've already had a post workout meal, I don't see the problem?

Turkish1530

08-19-2010, 07:37 PM

Links to said studies?

Let me know when you realize they don't exist.

One of his buddies in the locker room told him about that study, give him a minute to scan the latest article from Muscle and Fitness.

Sorry Ladies, I'm not going to waste my time trying to find an article on it for 2 bums...... I truly thought that what I said about a fast digesting carb/fast digested protein immediatly PWO (whey protein mixed with Dextrose for example) was a concept that was well known by most serious bodybuilders/weight training atheltes.

I'm not discrediting Layne's methods by any means, I came into this thread with sincere questions about it and sincere interest..... Obviously all I ran into were u 2 bums who are all over Layne's nuts and thought that i was badmouthing his research rather than seeing that I was just asking a serious question that he, for some reason, couldn't just answer like a gentleman.

Anyways, I no longer have any interest in getting my question answered, thanks for nothing.

Quelly

08-19-2010, 08:05 PM

Sorry Ladies, I'm not going to waste my time trying to find an article on it for 2 bums...... I truly thought that what I said about a fast digesting carb/fast digested protein immediatly PWO (whey protein mixed with Dextrose for example) was a concept that was well known by most serious bodybuilders/weight training atheltes.

I'm not discrediting Layne's methods by any means, I came into this thread with sincere questions about it and sincere interest..... Obviously all I ran into were u 2 bums who are all over Layne's nuts and thought that i was badmouthing his research rather than seeing that I was just asking a serious question that he, for some reason, couldn't just answer like a gentleman.

Anyways, I no longer have any interest in getting my question answered, thanks for nothing.

hey bud I think your just missing the key point, layne's eating frequency includes a PWO meal, and it can certainly have fast carbs and whey. All people are confused about is why you think you need ANOTHER meal shortly after that

There is NO research on a second meal quickly after your post workout meal. The PWO meal is researched makes sense, and is included in his frequency. Eating again only an hour or two later isn't.

DavyGrolton

08-19-2010, 09:29 PM

Sorry Ladies, I'm not going to waste my time trying to find an article on it for 2 bums...... I truly thought that what I said about a fast digesting carb/fast digested protein immediatly PWO (whey protein mixed with Dextrose for example) was a concept that was well known by most serious bodybuilders/weight training atheltes.

I'm not discrediting Layne's methods by any means, I came into this thread with sincere questions about it and sincere interest..... Obviously all I ran into were u 2 bums who are all over Layne's nuts and thought that i was badmouthing his research rather than seeing that I was just asking a serious question that he, for some reason, couldn't just answer like a gentleman.

Anyways, I no longer have any interest in getting my question answered, thanks for nothing.

ignoramus (ˌɪɡnəˈreɪməs)

— n , pl -muses
an ignorant person; fool

[C16: from legal Latin, literally: we have no knowledge of, from Latin ignōrāre to be ignorant of; see ignore ; modern usage originated from the use of Ignoramus as the name of an unlettered lawyer in a play by G. Ruggle, 17th-century English dramatist]

str8flexed

08-19-2010, 10:03 PM

Sorry Ladies, I'm not going to waste my time trying to find an article on it for 2 bums...... I truly thought that what I said about a fast digesting carb/fast digested protein immediatly PWO (whey protein mixed with Dextrose for example) was a concept that was well known by most serious bodybuilders/weight training atheltes.

I'm not discrediting Layne's methods by any means, I came into this thread with sincere questions about it and sincere interest..... Obviously all I ran into were u 2 bums who are all over Layne's nuts and thought that i was badmouthing his research rather than seeing that I was just asking a serious question that he, for some reason, couldn't just answer like a gentleman.

Anyways, I no longer have any interest in getting my question answered, thanks for nothing.

if you knew Davy's other posts you would know that he is definitely NOT a nuthugger LOL. In fact I don't think he cares for me much at all. Just happens to agree with me in this case

though it seems that when anyone even agrees with me lately they are automatically a nuthugger.

In any case, I don't care if you disagree with me, you are entitled to your opinion dude

Cumulonimbus

08-20-2010, 12:33 AM

Sorry Ladies, I'm not going to waste my time trying to find an article on it for 2 bums...... I truly thought that what I said about a fast digesting carb/fast digested protein immediatly PWO (whey protein mixed with Dextrose for example) was a concept that was well known by most serious bodybuilders/weight training atheltes.

I'm not discrediting Layne's methods by any means, I came into this thread with sincere questions about it and sincere interest..... Obviously all I ran into were u 2 bums who are all over Layne's nuts and thought that i was badmouthing his research rather than seeing that I was just asking a serious question that he, for some reason, couldn't just answer like a gentleman.

Anyways, I no longer have any interest in getting my question answered, thanks for nothing.

That only counts if you ran a marathon mid day without eating anything several hours prior, such as something small before bed and then you ran fasted next day. If your pre workout nutrition is set, then your glycogen stores definitely aren't going to be depleted from a 45 minute to 1 and half hour workout.

Just because a bodybuilder is serious doesn't mean all his/her theories are right.

With that said, I include a pwo meal consisting of whey, bcaa, rice cakes and a banana simply because of dat dere cortisolz lol, oh n da hunger

MattyH7688

08-20-2010, 07:24 AM

if you knew Davy's other posts you would know that he is definitely NOT a nuthugger LOL. In fact I don't think he cares for me much at all. Just happens to agree with me in this case

though it seems that when anyone even agrees with me lately they are automatically a nuthugger.

In any case, I don't care if you disagree with me, you are entitled to your opinion dude

I also agree with Layne here lol.

Another guy who has been a complete ******* to Layne on the boards lately :) :p.

DanTheManB

08-20-2010, 07:26 AM

I also agree with Layne here lol.

Another guy who has been a complete ******* to Layne on the boards lately :) :p.

who're the other guys?

DavyGrolton

08-20-2010, 07:53 AM

who're the other guys?

you, me, Matty, lth, and OtisBDriftwood

VolumeFreak

08-20-2010, 08:55 AM

ive read the articles but i was wondering if you didnt have the money for bcaa's in between meals if you could still stimulate protein synthesis without them?

ChristianBBer

08-20-2010, 08:56 AM

I never understood the majority of the arguements online.

I may question a lot of the routines/theories however I rarely ( and If I do I apoligize) ever make any claims with regards to what should be done the right way becuase I do not have scientific knowledge/facts to back it up.

Truthfully, Layne is the only one I know of that works in a lab. He uses "scientific, irrefutable" results to back up his claims.

If anyone wants to argue a claim, then goto a lab and do the work yourself or research other studies and produce a coherent argument.

I understand the field of bodybuilding has it's part of subjective claims , as in, everyone has a different body/reaction etc.. however there are somethings that ALL us bodybuilders share.

One of them I believe is the article Layne published in regards to protein synthesis. We all metabolism protein the same way. Layne provided the facts, the charts and his contention on the results. So for me, that is gold.

Unless I have access to a lab and 7 years worth of schooling in the field under my belt :) inwhich I don't :)

ChristianBBer

08-20-2010, 08:57 AM

ive read the articles but i was wondering if you didnt have the money for bcaa's in between meals if you could still stimulate protein synthesis without them?

I believe in the article Layne mention Luecine as a vital BCAA to have inbetween meal. And high sources of it are found in chicken, steak, eggs, dairy products etc...

Its in the article

str8flexed

08-20-2010, 08:58 AM

no it's not vital, it will still work without it, leucine just helps optimize the response

VolumeFreak

08-20-2010, 09:01 AM

no it's not vital, it will still work without it, leucine just helps optimize the response

thanks for the quick response. so instead of bcaa's i could use some type of meat to get a response? or what could i use to get some type of response.
since you reccomend bcaa's and carbs where would i put the carbs? with the meal then?

str8flexed

08-20-2010, 09:30 AM

um no, meat or an intact protein source would not work the same way because it doesn't spike plasma amino acids to nearly the same extent

VolumeFreak

08-20-2010, 09:34 AM

um no, meat or an intact protein source would not work the same way because it doesn't spike plasma amino acids to nearly the same extent

ok thats what i kind of thought. so the protein and carb doses will do for spiking at each meal time. so i would eat my meal of protein and carbs wait 4-6 hours and then eat again and so on..

str8flexed

08-20-2010, 09:54 AM

bingo

DanTheManB

08-20-2010, 10:20 AM

you, me, Matty, lth, and OtisBDriftwood

no way

DavyGrolton

08-20-2010, 01:02 PM

no way

?

You're hard to read man.

Quelly

08-20-2010, 02:03 PM

?

You're hard to read man.

you got dissed Davy...

Dan's too good for your Layne haters club

FATHER FLEX

08-20-2010, 03:24 PM

you got dissed Davy...

Dan's too good for your Layne haters club

LOL! Boom Head Shot!

See what Eric does, he brings out the sophomoric humor in me! :D

devo09

08-20-2010, 04:31 PM

davy ftl

DanTheManB

08-20-2010, 05:17 PM

?

You're hard to read man.

all jokes kid. relax and go train. life is short. it's fun to clown

DavyGrolton

08-20-2010, 08:52 PM

you got dissed Davy...

Dan's too good for your Layne haters club

LOL! Boom Head Shot!

See what Eric does, he brings out the sophomoric humor in me! :D

davy ftl

all jokes kid. relax and go train. life is short. it's fun to clown

strong unaware on my part

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2328/1849933352_ad036ef24a.jpg

DanTheManB

08-20-2010, 09:29 PM

strong unaware on my part

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2328/1849933352_ad036ef24a.jpg

back to our regularly scheduled program

DavyGrolton

08-20-2010, 09:43 PM

back to our regularly scheduled program

brb meal 7

oh wait this is a Layne thread

brb pre-bed Xtend

surfergirl36

08-20-2010, 09:52 PM

back to our regularly scheduled program

LOL....this made me laugh!

DanTheManB

08-20-2010, 09:59 PM

brb meal 7

oh wait this is a Layne thread

brb pre-bed Xtend

leucinex1,000,000.....DOLLARS

Quelly

08-21-2010, 01:54 AM

LOL! Boom Head Shot!

See what Eric does, he brings out the sophomoric humor in me! :D

I typed "you got moted" before, then I changed it toe "you got dissed" because I realized dude was like 1 or 2 when we were running around the bay area in flashing british knights saying that to each other.

but on a serious note....don't eat 12 meals a day people

str8flexed

08-21-2010, 08:20 AM

oh my god, I thought my friends and I in middle school were the only ones who said 'moted' LOL

lth

08-21-2010, 08:41 PM

you, me, Matty, lth, and OtisBDriftwood

I never was actually sh*t talking on layne himself.....I dont know him like I said if you read the post, all I said was about people speaking for him and blowing him up like a balloon on a daily basis...aka nuthuggers. I don't have anything against someone I dont know.

E drama, seriously?

DavyGrolton

08-21-2010, 08:46 PM

I never was actually sh*t talking on layne himself.....I dont know him like I said if you read the post, all I said was about people speaking for him and blowing him up like a balloon on a daily basis...aka nuthuggers. I don't have anything against someone I dont know.

E drama, seriously?

most of this discussion is sarcasm and humor broseph

DanTheManB

08-21-2010, 09:38 PM

most of this discussion is sarcasm and humor broseph

u should eat 12 meals/ day imo

co1e_train

08-21-2010, 09:41 PM

u should eat 12 meals/ day imo

Oh hai

I just thought you had to take dat dere cell tech... wait wut?

DanTheManB

08-21-2010, 09:51 PM

Oh hai

I just thought you had to take dat dere cell tech... wait wut?

dude. thats not cool accusing layne of celltech

DavyGrolton

08-21-2010, 09:55 PM

Oh hai

I just thought you had to take dat dere cell tech... wait wut?

dude. thats not cool accusing layne of celltech

Now remember guys: Xtend increases nutrient partitioning so as long as you take enough Xtend (1-2 tubs per day) you can eat as much as you want and 100% of the nutrients will be used for protein synthesis.

devo09

08-21-2010, 09:58 PM

Now remember guys: Xtend increases nutrient partitioning so as long as you take enough Xtend (1-2 tubs per day) you can eat as much as you want and 100% of the nutrients will be used for protein synthesis.

exactly, and its calorie free!!!

DanTheManB

08-21-2010, 10:00 PM

DanTheManB

08-21-2010, 10:02 PM

agreed. as much leucine as possible ftw

dont forget: beating your chest+ backflips thru the gym culminating with swinging from the cables like a monkey right before a set of squats on video increases protein synthesis tenfold

DavyGrolton

08-21-2010, 10:04 PM

exactly, and its calorie free!!!

agreed. as much leucine as possible ftw

dont forget: beating your chest+ backflips thru the gym culminating with swinging from the cables like a monkey right before a set of squats on video increases protein synthesis tenfold

I lol'd hard irl

DavyGrolton

08-21-2010, 10:04 PM

dont forget: beating your chest+ backflips thru the gym culminating with swinging from the cables like a monkey right before a set of squats on video increases protein synthesis tenfold

yell at the bar too broseph

DanTheManB

08-21-2010, 10:06 PM

yell at the bar too broseph

that and taking a running start 35 feet away screaming im the man whilst listening to old disturbed before a PR of HEX bar deadlifts (of all things)

DavyGrolton

08-21-2010, 10:15 PM

that and taking a running start 35 feet away screaming im the man whilst listening to old disturbed before a PR of HEX bar deadlifts (of all things)

There's a vid up of Marc Lobliner doing the Layne stomp towards some kind of leg machine but he can't get the weight up for the first damn rep without a couple of spotters.

srs lulz

DanTheManB

08-21-2010, 10:16 PM

There's a vid up of Marc Lobliner doing the Layne stomp towards some kind of leg machine but he can't get the weight up for the first damn rep without a couple of spotters.

srs lulz

yea. they're boys tho. not as amusing

Quelly

08-21-2010, 10:36 PM

oh my god, I thought my friends and I in middle school were the only ones who said 'moted' LOL

...I don't know how I feel about kids in indiana using the same slang as I did in oakland....I somehow feel like Tupac failed me....

lth

08-22-2010, 07:16 AM

...I don't know how I feel about kids in indiana using the same slang as I did in oakland....I somehow feel like Tupac failed me....

lmfao

str8flexed

08-22-2010, 07:37 AM

...I don't know how I feel about kids in indiana using the same slang as I did in oakland....I somehow feel like Tupac failed me....

midwest represent nizzle

JoeFlex

08-22-2010, 08:31 PM

hey bud I think your just missing the key point, layne's eating frequency includes a PWO meal, and it can certainly have fast carbs and whey. All people are confused about is why you think you need ANOTHER meal shortly after that

There is NO research on a second meal quickly after your post workout meal. The PWO meal is researched makes sense, and is included in his frequency. Eating again only an hour or two later isn't.
The handsome gentleman is referring to his high glycemic carbohydrate PWO shake causing a large rise in insulin, leaving his blood sugar low. So, he eats a normal meal to stabilize blood glucose.

Anyone here who drinks a window of opportunity shake, should know you start flattening out faster than a dead donkey when you wait more than a couple hours before eating again. When I wait too long, not only do I flatten out, but it ruins my training sessions the next day. If my coach told me to wait four hours before consuming a "whole foods" source of protein, carbs, and fat post-workout, I'd knock his face in. Sounds like an excellent way to stay "anabolic."

DavyGrolton

08-22-2010, 08:45 PM

JoeFlex

08-22-2010, 08:47 PM

Excellent response Davy.

DavyGrolton

08-22-2010, 08:53 PM

devo09

08-22-2010, 08:55 PM

The handsome gentleman is referring to his high glycemic carbohydrate PWO shake causing a large rise in insulin, leaving his blood sugar low. So, he eats a normal meal to stabilize blood glucose.

Anyone here who drinks a window of opportunity shake, should know you start flattening out faster than a dead donkey when you wait more than a couple hours before eating again. When I wait too long, not only do I flatten out, but it ruins my training sessions the next day. If my coach told me to wait four hours before consuming a "whole foods" source of protein, carbs, and fat post-workout, I'd knock his face in. Sounds like an excellent way to stay "anabolic."

hey wizard, your body will stablize blood sugar on its own.

I don't know how fast a dead donkey flattens out, I don't have much experience with them, I've only rode one a few times and it was alive at the time. But why the hell would you flatten out in a few hours? Please explain this on a physiological level, and if you can't then don't pretend that you can.

JoeFlex

08-22-2010, 09:05 PM

So you train, then hit up a shake of whey + a large quantity of pure sugar and then if you don't eat within a couple of hours you "flatten out" and have a bad session the next day.

If you actually lose muscle fullness in <4 hours then you have an extremely severe case of hyperthyroidism. The more logical conclusion is that you don't know what you're talking about.
"If your blood sugar drops too low, you become lethargic and/or experience increased hunger. And if it goes too high, your brain signals your pancreas to secrete more insulin. Insulin brings your blood sugar back down, but primarily by converting the excess sugar to stored fat. Also, the greater the rate of increase in your blood sugar, the more chance that your body will release an excess amount of insulin, and drive your blood sugar back down too low.

Therefore, when you eat foods that cause a large and rapid glycemic response, you may feel an initial elevation in energy and mood as your blood sugar rises, but this is followed by a cycle of increased fat storage, lethargy, and more hunger!"

DavyGrolton

08-22-2010, 09:05 PM

"If your blood sugar drops too low, you become lethargic and/or experience increased hunger. And if it goes too high, your brain signals your pancreas to secrete more insulin. Insulin brings your blood sugar back down, but primarily by converting the excess sugar to stored fat. Also, the greater the rate of increase in your blood sugar, the more chance that your body will release an excess amount of insulin, and drive your blood sugar back down too low.

Therefore, when you eat foods that cause a large and rapid glycemic response, you may feel an initial elevation in energy and mood as your blood sugar rises, but this is followed by a cycle of increased fat storage, lethargy, and more hunger!"

Some truth and some bull**** in that post, but I don't see what point you're trying to make. We're talking about muscular fullness here, not blood glucose.

devo09

08-22-2010, 09:25 PM

"If your blood sugar drops too low, you become lethargic and/or experience increased hunger.
AND, you're body will release glucose to stabilize blood sugar

Insulin brings your blood sugar back down, but primarily by converting the excess sugar to stored fat.
Oooooo boy, yeah...this almost never happens unless under extreme conditions

Also, the greater the rate of increase in your blood sugar, the more chance that your body will release an excess amount of insulin, and drive your blood sugar back down too low.
Well then why would you have a post-workout shake with high GI carbs? Why not just have a regular meal instead ? You're really contradicting yourself here

Therefore, when you eat foods that cause a large and rapid glycemic response, you may feel an initial elevation in energy and mood as your blood sugar rises, but this is followed by a cycle of increased fat storage, lethargy, and more hunger!"
K, then why do you recommend a post-workout shake? Is it so that you can increase fat storage? Lethargy? or because you really don't know what you're talking about?

str8flexed

08-22-2010, 09:38 PM

The handsome gentleman is referring to his high glycemic carbohydrate PWO shake causing a large rise in insulin, leaving his blood sugar low. So, he eats a normal meal to stabilize blood glucose.

Anyone here who drinks a window of opportunity shake, should know you start flattening out faster than a dead donkey when you wait more than a couple hours before eating again. When I wait too long, not only do I flatten out, but it ruins my training sessions the next day. If my coach told me to wait four hours before consuming a "whole foods" source of protein, carbs, and fat post-workout, I'd knock his face in. Sounds like an excellent way to stay "anabolic."

just so you know, research studies have also shown that a moderate increase in insulin is sufficient to optimize the anabolic response to amino acids. A huge spike is not needed and neither is a large amount of super fast digesting carbs. Amino acids, not insulin regulate recovery of protein synthesis after a workout.

I'd suggest you read my review in the journal of nutrition here :)

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/136/2/533S

as well as my review on optimal protein intake and frequency :)

http://www.xs4all.nl/~eleeuwaa/norton_AF2_09.PDF

but please, if you don't like them, don't knock in my face, you sound like a very scary individual

Quelly

08-22-2010, 09:42 PM

faster than a dead donkey? Really??

Cumulonimbus

08-23-2010, 01:24 AM

Joe I would much rather have you eat that whole meal 1-1.5 hours after your post workout shake because it is possible that you may loose a pound of muscle mass. Your trainer is an idiot, don't wait 4 hours. He's making you catabolic!

Quelly

08-23-2010, 01:27 AM

Cumulonimbus

08-23-2010, 01:37 AM

....is this a joke lol?

Of course not

;)

fitlover

08-23-2010, 04:28 PM

Intermittent fasting.

DO IT. :)

devo09

08-23-2010, 05:17 PM

Intermittent fasting.

DO IT. :)

isn't that another name for starving yourself and then binge eating?

Quelly

08-23-2010, 05:33 PM

isn't that another name for starving yourself and then binge eating?

I thought so until I read some research, looked at some people who were doing etc.

Basically the same exact thing as normal dieting and counting macros, you just eat all the food in a 8 hour window.

DavyGrolton

08-23-2010, 05:35 PM

isn't that another name for starving yourself and then binge eating?

one of the best posts I've ever read

DanTheManB

08-23-2010, 06:07 PM

I thought so until I read some research, looked at some people who were doing etc.

Basically the same exact thing as normal dieting and counting macros, you just eat all the food in a 8 hour window.

there are pluses and minuses to it. having done it myself I've found that the periods of low energy are a bit longer but having 1-3 meals in a short time period leaves one to much greater mental satisfaction and fullness

DanTheManB

08-23-2010, 06:09 PM

isn't that another name for starving yourself and then binge eating?

but yeah it does feel sorta like binge eating

Quelly

08-23-2010, 06:18 PM

there are pluses and minuses to it. having done it myself I've found that the periods of low energy are a bit longer but having 1-3 meals in a short time period leaves one to much greater mental satisfaction and fullness

but yeah it does feel sorta like binge eating

yeah I tried it for 3 weeks abouts too, and I think the main benefit is just not having to worry about eating every 3 hours, and also you definitely get to feel like you are eating to full and you get satiated for sure. But no doubt, 2k cals post workout does feel like a binge lol.

str8flexed

08-23-2010, 06:33 PM

Intermittent fasting.

DO IT. :)

no. :)

fitlover

08-23-2010, 07:04 PM

isn't that another name for starving yourself and then binge eating?

Actually, it isn't.

no. :)

Shhh. :p

fitlover

08-23-2010, 07:12 PM

but yeah it does feel sorta like binge eating

Have you ever had COED or bulimia before?

It's nothing like binge eating. I was a bulimic for almost 2 years, and it's completely different. Sure, if someone isn't mentally stable to begin with, they can develop an ED from intermittent fasting. But in the same way, bodybuilding in itself is pretty much an ED, and I know more people who developed a poor relationship with food by eating every 2-3 hours than by someone who was able to feel satisfied mentally and physically after every meal.

Binge eating comes with psychological issues. Since I started intermittent fasting, I'm honestly not even worried about food. It's convenient, I have fantastic energy for my workouts, and the fasted period is a breeze, considering I sleep through half of it. I still get in plenty of calories for my goals, and I'm not losing muscle mass. I actually feel a lot better. :)

DavyGrolton

08-23-2010, 07:50 PM

Have you ever had COED or bulimia before?

It's nothing like binge eating. I was a bulimic for almost 2 years, and it's completely different. Sure, if someone isn't mentally stable to begin with, they can develop an ED from intermittent fasting. But in the same way, bodybuilding in itself is pretty much an ED, and I know more people who developed a poor relationship with food by eating every 2-3 hours than by someone who was able to feel satisfied mentally and physically after every meal.

Binge eating comes with psychological issues. Since I started intermittent fasting, I'm honestly not even worried about food. It's convenient, I have fantastic energy for my workouts, and the fasted period is a breeze, considering I sleep through half of it. I still get in plenty of calories for my goals, and I'm not losing muscle mass. I actually feel a lot better. :)

With all due respect you come off as a closet ED case.

fitlover

08-23-2010, 08:26 PM

With all due respect you come off as a closet ED case.

With all due respect, I don't care what you think about me.

I'm making progress, and that's what I care about.

DavyGrolton

08-23-2010, 08:34 PM

With all due respect, I don't care what you think about me.

I'm making progress, and that's what I care about.

This is coming from one recovered ED victim to another; I'm not trying to judge, I'm just being honest. I obviously don't know you personally but if your posts are an indication then I find it hard to believe that your relationship with food is completely healthy.

Try to look at your situation objectively: you dieted down for a contest and months later you're still close to contest shape. You're what? 16 or 17 and you're within a few pounds of stage shape. You talk about bulking and then in the same sentence say that you're maintaining. It just doesn't make sense.

But hey if you're really healthy and making progress then good for you! I just find it a little odd that you are working to maintain a condition that is inherently unhealthy.

The one figure competitor I know that has tried to stay very lean in her offseason hasn't had a period in years... six going on seven years now and she may well be unable to ever have children and it's all because she refused to let herself ever get too far away from contest shape.

It's one thing for a guy to give up sex to stay shredded but it is a whole different gain for women, especially teens. But I'm sure you know that.

DavyGrolton

08-23-2010, 08:39 PM

And yeah strong spamming ITT. :p

fitlover

08-23-2010, 08:39 PM

This is coming from one recovered ED victim to another; I'm not trying to judge, I'm just being honest. I obviously don't know you personally but if your posts are an indication then I find it hard to believe that your relationship with food is completely healthy.

Try to look at your situation objectively: you dieted down for a contest and months later you're still close to contest shape. You're what? 16 or 17 and you're within a few pounds of stage shape. You talk about bulking and then in the same sentence say that you're maintaining. It just doesn't make sense.

But hey if you're really healthy and making progress then good for you! I just find it a little odd that you are working to maintain a condition that is inherently unhealthy.

The one figure competitor I know that has tried to stay very lean in her offseason hasn't had a period in years... six going on seven years now and she may well be unable to ever have children and it's all because she refused to let herself ever get too far away from contest shape.

It's one thing for a guy to give up sex to stay shredded but it is a whole different gain for women, especially teens. But I'm sure you know that.

My relationship with food is perfectly healthy. You misread my comment.

I stopped counting calories, because I found that to be somewhat of a trigger for me. Thus I was just eating healthy, but that only had me maintaining my weight. So now I've upped my food intake, and I'm keeping somewhat of an eye on my calories to make sure I'm not UNDEReating. But I'm not neurotic about anything, since it's the off-season and I'm not under pressure of competition prep.

I'm not looking to maintain my stage leanness, but to be completely honest I wasn't even that lean when I stepped on stage.

And yes, I'm well aware of the way women's hormones work. Your figure competitor friend, if she really has gone for years without it (unless she is on birth control) she is putting herself at high risk of osteoporosis, if she hasn't already gotten it yet.

I'm not stupid with my body, and I know my limits. :) Which is why I'm not scared of putting on some weight.

DavyGrolton

08-23-2010, 08:40 PM

read my edit

fitlover

08-23-2010, 08:43 PM

read my edit

Read mine.

DavyGrolton

08-23-2010, 08:46 PM

Read mine.

bof

d'accord

Quelly

08-23-2010, 09:12 PM

no. :)

Its true, the IFing approach does stand in stark contrast to layne's research on the most anabolic way of eating to be protein dosing with leu in between meals.

That being said, I've seen numerous people get lean on it, bulk on it with lean gains, and even compete using the strategy. Check out leangains.com

Is it optimal for muscle gaining? Probably not. But sometimes finding something that works for you is more important than chasing something you won't be able to do at all even if on paper it is optimal.

Like I said, I only Ife'd for 3 weeks.

*gets down on meal # 4*

fitlover

08-23-2010, 09:15 PM

Its true, the IFing approach does stand in stark contrast to layne's research on the most anabolic way of eating to be protein dosing with leu in between meals.

That being said, I've seen numerous people get lean on it, bulk on it with lean gains, and even compete using the strategy. Check out leangains.com

Is it optimal for muscle gaining? Probably not. But sometimes finding something that works for you is more important than chasing something you won't be able to do at all even if on paper it is optimal.

Like I said, I only Ife'd for 3 weeks.

*gets down on meal # 4*

It's probably not optimal for the guys that have to scarf down 6000-7000 calories a day, but for someone quite a bit smaller who is building, it's rather convenient (i.e. myself). Or for someone who is trying to maintain, or has sport-specific training, it can be good.

The only way I'd see it not being optimal for muscle-building is if for some reason you had trouble eating the allotted calories in the 8-hour time period.

Quelly

08-23-2010, 09:20 PM

It's probably not optimal for the guys that have to scarf down 6000-7000 calories a day, but for someone quite a bit smaller who is building, it's rather convenient (i.e. myself). Or for someone who is trying to maintain, or has sport-specific training, it can be good.

The only way I'd see it not being optimal for muscle-building is if for some reason you had trouble eating the allotted calories in the 8-hour time period.

Have you seen Layne's research correlating 4-5 meals/day with leu+cho in between meals as the way in which to induce the most spikes in protein synthesis?

However, I have a feeling the difference is minimal in the long run. If you are keeping nitrogen balance, providing a caloric surplus, training to create overload and thus supercompensation. You are going to grow regardless. How much MORE you would grow with more spikes in protein synthesis is impossible to say. We'd need A LOT more research.

fitlover

08-23-2010, 09:25 PM

Have you seen Layne's research correlating 4-5 meals/day with leu+cho in between meals as the way in which to induce the most spikes in protein synthesis?

However, I have a feeling the difference is minimal in the long run. If you are keeping nitrogen balance, providing a surplus, training to create overload and thus supercompensation. You are going to grow regardless. How much MORE you would grow with more spikes in protein synthesis. We'd need A LOT more research.

I haven't read it, no. I'm sure there might be some advantages, though I can't say anything for sure because I don't have the real credentials to support it. I'm not a biochemist or anything ;) I just experiment a lot with different diets to try and find what works best from my body, and I'm sure a lot of people could benefit from doing that. But of course it depends on your goals as well. I haven't seen any negative body composition side effects from my switch in eating, only positive performance gains.

Quelly

08-23-2010, 09:29 PM

I haven't read it, no. I'm sure there might be some advantages, though I can't say anything for sure because I don't have the real credentials to support it. I'm not a biochemist or anything ;) I just experiment a lot with different diets to try and find what works best from my body, and I'm sure a lot of people could benefit from doing that. But of course it depends on your goals as well. I haven't seen any negative body composition side effects from my switch in eating, only positive performance gains.

Well there are certainly some things that surprised the hell out of me that came out of the Ifing research. No way in hell did I expect an increase in resting BMR and release of catecholamines during a 16 hour fast. That one I certainly was surprised by, counter intuitive for sure. It bears merit and further consideration definitely, and the main thing I've learned from it, is that meal frequency and meal size can be much more flexible than i thought and still be very close to optimal when considering total macronutrients for the whole day and when still taking advantage of the nutrient partitoning effects of training.

fitlover

08-23-2010, 09:35 PM

Well there are certainly some things that surprised the hell out of me that came out of the Ifing research. No way in hell did I expect an increase in resting BMR and release of catecholamines during a 16 hour fast. That one I certainly was surprised by, counter intuitive for sure. It bears merit and further consideration definitely, and the main thing I've learned from it, is that meal frequency and meal size can be much more flexible than i thought and still be very close to optimal when considering total macronutrients for the whole day and when still taking advantage of the nutrient partitoning effects of training.

Yup. And I can see it being even more convenient for someone who is in pre-contest mode, and who really can't afford to eat that many calories...from a physiological standpoint, it doesn't matter whether they take in 6 meals or 3. But from a psychological standpoint, it makes a HUGE difference to be able to eat 600-700 calorie meals in one sitting (or more depending on their caloric intake) rather than breaking it up 300-400 cals at a time.

Ryanmckd

08-23-2010, 11:19 PM

To be honest there are so many theories they were considered "a sure thing" getting debunked nowadays it's impossible to know whats optimal and what isn't. Find what works for you then stuff what anyone else says, as long as it is working then i don't see a problem!

DanTheManB

08-24-2010, 05:53 AM

Have you ever had COED or bulimia before?

It's nothing like binge eating. I was a bulimic for almost 2 years, and it's completely different. Sure, if someone isn't mentally stable to begin with, they can develop an ED from intermittent fasting. But in the same way, bodybuilding in itself is pretty much an ED, and I know more people who developed a poor relationship with food by eating every 2-3 hours than by someone who was able to feel satisfied mentally and physically after every meal.

Binge eating comes with psychological issues. Since I started intermittent fasting, I'm honestly not even worried about food. It's convenient, I have fantastic energy for my workouts, and the fasted period is a breeze, considering I sleep through half of it. I still get in plenty of calories for my goals, and I'm not losing muscle mass. I actually feel a lot better. :)

i felt like i had an ED big time doing intermittent fasting. Closer to anorexia than binge eating though. just that DURING the meal/meals it felt like binging

fitlover

08-24-2010, 06:11 AM

i felt like i had an ED big time doing intermittent fasting. Closer to anorexia than binge eating though. just that DURING the meal/meals it felt like binging

When I had COED, it wasn't controlled. I opened the fridge, or the cupboard, and ate until I was so sick I couldn't possibly eat anymore, regardless of whether I was hungry or not. It was out of control. I'd reach for anything and everything, even if it tasted like sh*t. My mind wasn't there, I had no goal, and I just really didn't give a f*ck.

THAT was binge eating.

With IF, I'm never starving by the time I get to my first meal. Sometimes it even creeps up on me, and I'm like "Oh hey, it's 1:00" haha. And all my meals are organized (since I always cook well for myself), so it's not like I'm just raiding the fridge and stuffing my face like I was in the days of my ED.

A controlled and planned overfeeding is far different from a binge. It's like people trying to compare a refeed/carb load to an all-out cheat day. They might SEEM similar to someone who is slightly unaware, when in reality they're two entirely different things. :)

DanTheManB

08-24-2010, 06:17 AM

When I had COED, it wasn't controlled. I opened the fridge, or the cupboard, and ate until I was so sick I couldn't possibly eat anymore, regardless of whether I was hungry or not. It was out of control. I'd reach for anything and everything, even if it tasted like sh*t. My mind wasn't there, I had no goal, and I just really didn't give a f*ck.

THAT was binge eating.

With IF, I'm never starving by the time I get to my first meal. Sometimes it even creeps up on me, and I'm like "Oh hey, it's 1:00" haha. And all my meals are organized (since I always cook well for myself), so it's not like I'm just raiding the fridge and stuffing my face like I was in the days of my ED.

A controlled and planned overfeeding is far different from a binge. It's like people trying to compare a refeed/carb load to an all-out cheat day. They might SEEM similar to someone who is slightly unaware, when in reality they're two entirely different things. :)

you make great points actually. i think you have a bit more insight having actually been through the out of control binging thing. makes sense

DavyGrolton

08-24-2010, 06:44 AM

I dunno, I had issues with bingeing before I ever got into bodybuilding and I must admit that when I tried IF - for a few months actually - it felt "wrong" like I was following a protocol that condoned something that had been very destructive in the past.

Anyway moral of the story is that I haven't eaten less than 6-7 meals a day for a couple of years.

ErickStevens

08-24-2010, 07:05 AM

fitlover

08-24-2010, 07:40 AM

I'm also a reformed binge eater and I was initially petrified that I would relapse once I tried IF. IF actually helped because at no point did I ever restrict myself in terms of food choices, which was a catalyst for my binges in the past. Like Davey I didn't feel "right", but I got results so I did it for a few months until my schedule didn't permit it anymore. Not to mention I love breakfast!

I've found that I'm even less likely to go out of control with IF. I can eat meals with my family all the time, go out to eat with my friends, and feel like I can enjoy food again. When I split everything up into little meals I was always eating smaller portions (even if I was bulking), and it was always a pain in the ass going out anywhere. Even when I had gotten away from bulimia and was eating 5-6x per day I still found myself sometimes binging at night just because I was so hungry. Even if I was gaining off of the calories I was eating, I was just in a constant state of hunger, and it drove me pretty crazy, which eventually led to even more ED triggers.

So I guess it's all about finding what works for you, and if you know that certain things might trigger ED behavior again, or if you think that you might be developing a certain ED or that you no longer have control when you eat, that's when you need to stop and reevaluate what you're doing, and what you can change.

GetCarved

08-24-2010, 02:31 PM

Meal Frequency is not nearly as important as we once thought it was. Its just one of those things that gets passed down through bodybuilding circles. I make sure I hit my calories for the day and I'm happy. I place many of those cals around my workout, especially on refeed days. Studies have shown better glycogen uptake in muscles that have just been trained, so it makes sense to put a lot of carbs around the workout. My clients also have the option of eating less frequently if it suits their lifestyles, the science just doesn't support eating every 2 hours anymore. Layne's studies on leucine and BCAA's are very interesting, and I'm going to look into that more...every little edge is worthwhile in this game.

ChristianBBer

08-31-2010, 12:59 PM

Does anyone ( Or Layne)

Know if he had an official answer to whether an insulin boost + Leucine is better than just Leucine by itself ?

It would in theory seem to make sense to have insulin elevated while consuming BCAA's as it is my understanding insulin shuttles nutrients ( BCAA's) to the needed destination .

So it would be best to say have an apple or some small simple carbs with a serving of Xtend correct?

str8flexed

08-31-2010, 01:21 PM

based on preliminary research in our lab it appears having an insulin increase with leucine is slightly better than leucine alone; but it doesn't need to be a huge spike, just a moderate rise

DavyGrolton

08-31-2010, 04:37 PM

Pardon my ignorance but isn't leucine inherently insulinogenic?

DanTheManB

08-31-2010, 06:00 PM

Pardon my ignorance but isn't leucine inherently insulinogenic?

im back in

str8flexed

08-31-2010, 06:01 PM

Pardon my ignorance but isn't leucine inherently insulinogenic?

it's actually debatable. You see some studies show it is and other's show it isn't. The reason being at the time points they measure insulin after leucine administration.

Typically insulin release in response to carbs is biphasic, there is an initial dumping of stored insulin from the pancreas, followed by a sustained production of insulin until blood glucose levels return to normal. In response to leucine, apparently there is only the dumping of the stored insulin and there is no sustained production. So the rise in insulin in response to leucine is extremely brief.

chickeneater

08-31-2010, 06:29 PM

subbed for later

SupaaJ

08-31-2010, 08:05 PM

dude. thats not cool accusing layne of celltech

Quick lulz, and onto.....

Excellent thread with many good points and discussions.

I tried leangains for a couple months and did quite well on it. My fast was never 16 hours though, tended to be 14.5-15. I just got tired of being hungry all morning, so I dropped the fast to 12 hours and currently eat at 8am, noon, 4pm, and 8pm. Seems to do the trick so far.

As with anything in training and nutrition, there are many ways to skin a cat. When I first heard of IF, I thought 'impossible' 'bs' 'not happening' etc. Well, I was wrong, plenty of people do well on it, and yes, even guys gaining muscle.

As far as ED's and binge eating. I would assume eating larger, more satiating meals, at less times per day would benefit their mental state more than teases 7 times a day. Again, I could be wrong. :)