EC Stack - Why ever come off during a cut (maybe at all)?

[Shastic]

*Failing to get an intelligent discussion going elsewhere (surprise surprise), I come to you guys...*

Reading this report on EC brought up the question... http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000006.htm

Some points I found interesting:

"Ephedrine works by stimulating the release of the bodies own noradrenaline, which stimulates ALL the adrenergic receptors. The stimulant side effects subside because they are primarily mediated by the beta-1 and beta-2 receptors, which downregulate during chronic use. Thus, the scientists were startled when they found that the thermogenic effect actually INCREASED with chronic use."

"OK, but why does the thermogenic effect INCREASE when you take ECA regularly? Because a thermogenic tissue called brown fat has a lot of beta-3 receptors that are stimulated by noradrenaline, which is released when you take non-selective sympathomimetic drugs like ephedrine. This stimulation of beta-3 receptors actually causes the brown fat to grow -- and more brown fat equals more thermogenesis. "

The article makes it pretty clear that cycling is not necessary, and that sticking to the stack actually improves its fat burning abilities... so if you are trying to lose weight, why come off at all?

Now, on a separate note... If you are in a growth (excess calorie) phase, would this creation of brown fat from EC use prevent body fat accumulation while attempting to gain muscle?

[Doubt.Less]

*Failing to get an intelligent discussion going elsewhere (surprise surprise), I come to you guys...*

Reading this report on EC brought up the question... http://www.drumlib.com/dp/000006.htm

Some points I found interesting:

"Ephedrine works by stimulating the release of the bodies own noradrenaline, which stimulates ALL the adrenergic receptors. The stimulant side effects subside because they are primarily mediated by the beta-1 and beta-2 receptors, which downregulate during chronic use. Thus, the scientists were startled when they found that the thermogenic effect actually INCREASED with chronic use."

"OK, but why does the thermogenic effect INCREASE when you take ECA regularly? Because a thermogenic tissue called brown fat has a lot of beta-3 receptors that are stimulated by noradrenaline, which is released when you take non-selective sympathomimetic drugs like ephedrine. This stimulation of beta-3 receptors actually causes the brown fat to grow -- and more brown fat equals more thermogenesis. "

The article makes it pretty clear that cycling is not necessary, and that sticking to the stack actually improves its fat burning abilities... so if you are trying to lose weight, why come off at all?

Now, on a separate note... If you are in a growth (excess calorie) phase, would this creation of brown fat from EC use prevent body fat accumulation while attempting to gain muscle?


if you're using an EC stack to cut I would suggest this as an alternative

super clean diet + lots of cardio + regular weight training.
some people don't believe in plain old hard work anymore.And the Caffeine,whatever dose you're taking will give you a crash afterwards,and most people on the stack find it hard to eat.Not eating+excessive training= muscle depletion.read up a little more on ephedrine and you'll realize why it's not good to "come off it at all" if you're trying to lose fat.

hard work.
/thread

[Shastic]

if you're using an EC stack to cut I would suggest this as an alternative

super clean diet + lots of cardio + regular weight training.
some people don't believe in plain old hard work anymore.And the Caffeine,whatever dose you're taking will give you a crash afterwards,and most people on the stack find it hard to eat.Not eating+excessive training= muscle depletion.read up a little more on ephedrine and you'll realize why it's not good to "come off it at all" if you're trying to lose fat.

hard work.
/thread

I totally agree with hard work; yet I also feel like people should use tools available to them. Hard work + no EC < Hard work + EC when it comes to fat loss.

[Insight]

if you're using an EC stack to cut I would suggest this as an alternative

super clean diet + lots of cardio + regular weight training.
some people don't believe in plain old hard work anymore.And the Caffeine,whatever dose you're taking will give you a crash afterwards,and most people on the stack find it hard to eat.Not eating+excessive training= muscle depletion.read up a little more on ephedrine and you'll realize why it's not good to "come off it at all" if you're trying to lose fat.

hard work.
/thread

you're saying those statements apply to the population that isn't actively counting calories/macros?

[MikeD4386]

I think people cycle off cuz of the side effects and long term negative effects

[MarkVI]

I think people cycle off cuz of the side effects and long term negative effects

Which are? My only side effects with ephedra are energy, lack of hunger and modestly increased strength and stamina.

[Shastic]

Which are? My only side effects with ephedra are energy, lack of hunger and modestly increased strength and stamina.

Hey Mark, do you take the full doses? I'm tuning between 300mg and 400mg caffeine a day (with respective ephedrine dosing) due to poor sleep still with the 600mg even after being on this stuff for a while.

Edit: Ate a LOT last night, slept like a baby... maybe thinking its been the lack of food and not the caffeine thats been screwing with my sleep. Can anyone relate to that?

[OtisBDriftwood]

I got up to 150mg Ephedrine + 1.200mg Caffeine + 1000mg Aspirin. I tolerate Caffeine quite well and the fat loss was amazing. Still prefer good ol' Clen or Salbutamol though.

[mannydawg]

ive been wanting to try and ec stack but where can i buy ephedrine.

[IIcovski]

I got up to 150mg Ephedrine + 1.200mg Caffeine + 1000mg Aspirin. I tolerate Caffeine quite well and the fat loss was amazing. Still prefer good ol' Clen or Salbutamol though.

Wow that seems pretty high, I got to 90mg Ephedrine + 600mg Caffeine and didnt take any aspirin. I didnt go any higher cause it was my first time doing it so I wanted to take it slow but did it work better with that much more ephedrine and caffeine?

[Gusthebus]

Dam I stay 75g E 600 C it does the job

[MikeK46]

ive been wanting to try and ec stack but where can i buy ephedrine.

over the counter in your local pharmacy

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515WV6HGJNL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Active Ingredients (in each caplet):
* Ephedrine sulfate 25 mg.
* Guaifenesin 400 mg.

http://www.manekineko.us/catalog/images/product/primatene_bronchial_asthma_relief_60tablets_enlarg e.jpg

Active Ingredients (in each caplet):
* Ephedrine Hcl 12.5 mg.
* Guaifenesin 200 mg.

[andrewmc]

Well, you can't stay on EC forever. Eventually you will have to come off, and when you do (after a loooong period of using) I'd be willing to be that your adrenergic receptors will have pretty much shut down.

This is basic endocrinology. If something is artificially stimulating glands/receptors, your body will get used to that stimulation. While you may notice the effects of the EC, you'll notice that your body's natural processes will have slowed when you come off.

[Mystiqueskillz]

over the counter in your local pharmacy

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515WV6HGJNL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Active Ingredients (in each caplet):
* Ephedrine sulfate 25 mg.
* Guaifenesin 400 mg.

http://www.manekineko.us/catalog/images/product/primatene_bronchial_asthma_relief_60tablets_enlarg e.jpg

Active Ingredients (in each caplet):
* Ephedrine Hcl 12.5 mg.
* Guaifenesin 200 mg.

Which one is better?

[PirateFace]

I've been happy with Bronkaid, fewer pills.

[CapitalG8]

Which one is better?

i prefer bronchaid

[OtisBDriftwood]

Wow that seems pretty high, I got to 90mg Ephedrine + 600mg Caffeine and didnt take any aspirin. I didnt go any higher cause it was my first time doing it so I wanted to take it slow but did it work better with that much more ephedrine and caffeine?

Well my tabs are 50mg each, they actually pure ephedrine bought in Spain. So i start with 50mg at week one, up to 100mg week two & than go up to 150mg on week 3, then go off for 3 weeks. Not actually off because i switch to clen for 3 weeks, than go back to the ECA stack for another 3 and so on.
Caffeine however was overdoing it, 400mg or 600mg a day is more than enough.

[Rowan212]

I took it for a duration of 6 months. 2 Bonchaid in the monring, 2 with lunch and 2 with dinner. After about a month of 2 there was very little effect anymore (the reason why my final dosage was so high)

Sides
Acne
Tired all the time
I could eat a huge meal even if i had dosed all day, i was still hungry all the time after like the 2 month of taking it.
crashes sucked big time.
by the time i was driving home (so i took 2 at lunch 12:00pm and then i drove home at 4:30) i could never stay awake, i would crash so hard it sucked.
after the second month or third there was no need to take it, my body was almost telling me to stop taking it, the sight of the box, the thought of swallowing another bronkiad was like a nightmare.

I quit taking it and just got on a strict diet+cardio+heavy wieghts and ive lost more in the last couple weeks then i did in 6 months.

[FatSoccerPlayer]

This is basic endocrinology. If something is artificially stimulating glands/receptors, your body will get used to that stimulation. While you may notice the effects of the EC, you'll notice that your body's natural processes will have slowed when you come off.

How true is this? Anyone with personal experience to confirm/deny?

[martinelli]

Now, on a separate note... If you are in a growth (excess calorie) phase, would this creation of brown fat from EC use prevent body fat accumulation while attempting to gain muscle?

Technically, I would say yeah because the generalized insulin resistance induced by EC would favor fat oxidation as opposed to nutrient uptake by adipocytes. Still, I'd personally recommend against EC on a bulk because its impact on insulin resistance extends to skeletal muscle tissue as well - the tissue that we want to be sensitive to the effects of insulin, especially if we want the weight gain to be FFM. EC would frustrate this goal & hinder glycogen resynthesis (& any accompanying creatine uptake, if you're on it). There's research showing the body to be less efficacious at stimulating protein synthesis when glycogen and/or phosphocreatine levels are low. So, I'd reserve EC strictly for cutting purposes.

This reminds me of the issue of CM supplementation while cutting. With the above being said (& this is purely theoretical on my part), it would make sense to restrict creatine use to the post-WO period, the only period in the day when the body is highly insulin-sensitive (coinciding creatine ingestion with your post-WO carbs at this time would maximize absorption). The lingering effect of EC at any other time of day would potentially hamper the process.

[toneranger]

Well, you can't stay on EC forever. Eventually you will have to come off, and when you do (after a loooong period of using) I'd be willing to be that your adrenergic receptors will have pretty much shut down.

This is basic endocrinology. If something is artificially stimulating glands/receptors, your body will get used to that stimulation. While you may notice the effects of the EC, you'll notice that your body's natural processes will have slowed when you come off.

you obviously didn't read the link posted above, which pretty much claims cycling EC=broscience

[Shastic]

Technically, I would say yeah because the generalized insulin resistance induced by EC would favor fat oxidation as opposed to nutrient uptake by adipocytes. Still, I'd personally recommend against EC on a bulk because its impact on insulin resistance extends to skeletal muscle tissue as well - the tissue that we want to be sensitive to the effects of insulin, especially if we want the weight gain to be FFM. EC would frustrate this goal & hinder glycogen resynthesis (& any accompanying creatine uptake, if you're on it). There's research showing the body to be less efficacious at stimulating protein synthesis when glycogen and/or phosphocreatine levels are low. So, I'd reserve EC strictly for cutting purposes.

This reminds me of the issue of CM supplementation while cutting. With the above being said (& this is purely theoretical on my part), it would make sense to restrict creatine use to the post-WO period, the only period in the day when the body is highly insulin-sensitive (coinciding creatine ingestion with your post-WO carbs at this time would maximize absorption). The lingering effect of EC at any other time of day would potentially hamper the process.

This makes a lot of sense. I never considered the EC hampering CM uptake, but that makes sense as well... I've always taken it then anyways in order to maximize the uptake.

A new question: Does timing EC doses around low carb periods allow greater fat oxidation?

[thegymbum]

A new question: Does timing EC doses around low carb periods allow greater fat oxidation?

It's probably not going to make a huge difference when you take it. It's still going to have the same effect on lipolysis and oxidation and on lipogenesis, regardless of whether there is substantial carbohydrate in your system or not. I would recommend dosing it based more around your exercise schedule and when you need to be the most active/alert, rather than worrying about dosing it to accommodate your carbohydrate intake.

[in10city]

This makes a lot of sense. I never considered the EC hampering CM uptake, but that makes sense as well... I've always taken it then anyways in order to maximize the uptake.

A new question: Does timing EC doses around low carb periods allow greater fat oxidation?

I don't see how EC is going to hamper creatine uptake. The creatine transporter is a sodium-chloride dependent transporter and does not rely on insulin. Insulin-mediated enhancement of creatine uptake is really only applicable during loading the loading period [i.e. 5 grams @ 4x/day, granted I don't know of any well controlled studies that have "slow loaded" for 28 days using 3 grams per day comparing with vs. without carbs] anyway. Once the physiological upper limit in TCr is neared, there does not appear to be any advantage. Consuming it near exercise has been shown to offer some advantages during loading too. Nevertheless, muscle creatine can be increased and maintained without the co-ingestion of carbohydrates. Also, keep in mind that it's been shown repeatedly that it takes an insulin concentration of ~100 mU/l to enhance uptake.

[martinelli]

I don't see how EC is going to hamper creatine uptake. The creatine transporter is a sodium-chloride dependent transporter and does not rely on insulin. Insulin-mediated enhancement of creatine uptake is really only applicable during loading the loading period [i.e. 5 grams @ 4x/day, granted I don't know of any well controlled studies that have "slow loaded" for 28 days using 3 grams per day comparing with vs. without carbs] anyway. Once the physiological upper limit in TCr is neared, there does not appear to be any advantage. Consuming it near exercise has been shown to offer some advantages during loading too. Nevertheless, muscle creatine can be increased and maintained without the co-ingestion of carbohydrates. Also, keep in mind that it's been shown repeatedly that it takes an insulin concentration of ~100 mU/l to enhance uptake.

Learned another new thing. I just read one of Lyle's works and he mentions very early studies throwing creatine in coffee or tea, which still resulted in absorption. I don't have to throw creatine in ungodly amounts of carbs anymore. I will also look for studies regarding creatine and the Na-Cl transporter. Thanks!

[OtisBDriftwood]

It's probably not going to make a huge difference when you take it. It's still going to have the same effect on lipolysis and oxidation and on lipogenesis, regardless of whether there is substantial carbohydrate in your system or not. I would recommend dosing it based more around your exercise schedule and when you need to be the most active/alert, rather than worrying about dosing it to accommodate your carbohydrate intake.

I usually intake it before Cardio morning on an empty stomach and later on 30 minutes before my workout.
Ideal is 8 and 8 hours.

[.Sunny]

Which are? My only side effects with ephedra are energy, lack of hunger and modestly increased strength and stamina.

A long term effect on your Dopamine levels. I knew a friend who was a long term user of eca. He is a mess. His Dopamine levels are shot, depression, unresponsive to even high does of caffine, mood swings you name it.

[Barn01]

IMHO the standard 25:200mg EC dose every 4h is too high and can cause crashing. I feel you're far better off to half that at a 2h frequency for less jitters and crashes with the same effective fat burning, maybe better. The E part that's really of interest is the Beta-2 receptor much like Clen. Not only is that the main fat oxidization pathway but some study's are possibly linking it to lowering myostatin levels and therefore seeing increases in strength and muscle hypertrophy. My suggestion is to cycle the EC every couple weeks. Take a few days off and let the beta receptors that may be down regulated from extensive stimulus, have a chance to up regulate and be responsive again when you start back up.

I think EC has benefits in both bulking and cutting!

[Bromenclature]

I take it every 4 hours...1 bronkaid, 200mg caffeine. Regularly crash in the third hour and it sucks. Plan to get off of this stuff as soon as my cut is finished.

[Jamps]

IMHO the standard 25:200mg EC dose every 4h is too high and can cause crashing. I feel you're far better off to half that at a 2h frequency for less jitters and crashes with the same effective fat burning, maybe better. The E part that's really of interest is the Beta-2 receptor much like Clen. Not only is that the main fat oxidization pathway but some study's are possibly linking it to lowering myostatin levels and therefore seeing increases in strength and muscle hypertrophy. My suggestion is to cycle the EC every couple weeks. Take a few days off and let the beta receptors that may be down regulated from extensive stimulus, have a chance to up regulate and be responsive again when you start back up.

I think EC has benefits in both bulking and cutting!

so how would it benefit a bulk? and during that time off EC do u think taking salbutamol + yohimbine + caffeine would be ok?

[OtisBDriftwood]

so how would it benefit a bulk? and during that time off EC do u think taking salbutamol + yohimbine + caffeine would be ok?

Salbutamol + caffeine is actually way more potent than the EC stack. I use 3 weeks each, i alternate between the 2.

[thegymbum]

Not only is that the main fat oxidization pathway but some study's are possibly linking it to lowering myostatin levels and therefore seeing increases in strength and muscle hypertrophy.

That's actually very interesting. I had never heard that before, but I'd be interested to know more about it. Where'd you get your info from?

[Barn01]

so how would it benefit a bulk? and during that time off EC do u think taking salbutamol + yohimbine + caffeine would be ok?

On a bulk it can help keep the fat gains down and as I said studies have linked eph and clen to adding LBM. They aren't sure why but they suspect that it's possible that it lowers myostatin a little.

As long as you non of those are going to stim the beta2 receptor then I don't see why you couldn't.


That's actually very interesting. I had never heard that before, but I'd be interested to know more about it. Where'd you get your info from?

I can't find the study that I read on that and I should say again that there was no PROOF that it actually reduced myostatin, just speculation in the conclusion of the study so take that for what it's worth.

Most studies on E or EC are done in a cal deficit and they've found it to be anticatabolic. Therefore I don't see why it wouldn't have a positive effect in a cal surplus?

[DenD359]

On a bulk it can help keep the fat gains down and as I said studies have linked eph and clen to adding LBM. They aren't sure why but they suspect that it's possible that it lowers myostatin a little.

As long as you non of those are going to stim the beta2 receptor then I don't see why you couldn't.



I can't find the study that I read on that and I should say again that there was no PROOF that it actually reduced myostatin, just speculation in the conclusion of the study so take that for what it's worth.

Most studies on E or EC are done in a cal deficit and they've found it to be anticatabolic. Therefore I don't see why it wouldn't have a positive effect in a cal surplus?

I have been doubting myself if I should take it or not. Like you said, it helps keep LBM with adding minimum bf but what I don't understand is why wouldn't you take it if you're trying to slowly bulk with the benefits of not having much fat put on you?

It sounds like you're contradicting yourself when you tell that person it's ok to use EC if you don't stimulate the beta2 receptor but at the end, you question about it on a cal surplus?

[Barn01]

I have been doubting myself if I should take it or not. Like you said, it helps keep LBM with adding minimum bf but what I don't understand is why wouldn't you take it if you're trying to slowly bulk with the benefits of not having much fat put on you?

It sounds like you're contradicting yourself when you tell that person it's ok to use EC if you don't stimulate the beta2 receptor but at the end, you question about it on a cal surplus?

I only question the anabolic effect of EC on a surplus because there are very few studies done on proving if it's effective in that manner.

[T3mpest]

A long term effect on your Dopamine levels. I knew a friend who was a long term user of eca. He is a mess. His Dopamine levels are shot, depression, unresponsive to even high does of caffine, mood swings you name it.

ECA does tend to have issues like this in chronic users. Once you get used to it you keep uping doses. Next thing you know your adrenals are shot, adrenal fatigue is nothing to mess with and will KILL you in the guym

[heytred]

I'm currently on 75mg + 600mg a day EC (spread throughout 3 doses ~ 4h's apart) and didn't plan on cycling off until I ran out of Bronkaid... then I realized I have 59 tablets left. Guess I'm just gonna finish them all off.

Also I'm taking with Green Tea Extract... dunno why. Good idea? Could I up the dose safely if I wanted to? I'm following Keto and haven't felt any crash, or anything in between doses in the 3 weeks I've been taking EC. Results are great so far.

[DenD359]

ECA does tend to have issues like this in chronic users. Once you get used to it you keep uping doses. Next thing you know your adrenals are shot, adrenal fatigue is nothing to mess with and will KILL you in the guym

This is the main reason I'm questioning myself, whether I should take it on a slow bulk/maintenance or not, but even then, would 1x dose a day be fine?


I'm currently on 75mg + 600mg a day EC (spread throughout 3 doses ~ 4h's apart) and didn't plan on cycling off until I ran out of Bronkaid... then I realized I have 59 tablets left. Guess I'm just gonna finish them all off.

Also I'm taking with Green Tea Extract... dunno why. Good idea? Could I up the dose safely if I wanted to? I'm following Keto and haven't felt any crash, or anything in between doses in the 3 weeks I've been taking EC. Results are great so far.

On the site, they say to not drink Green Tea but if it was decaffeinated, I would think it's ok

[Barn01]

ECA does tend to have issues like this in chronic users. Once you get used to it you keep uping doses. Next thing you know your adrenals are shot, adrenal fatigue is nothing to mess with and will KILL you in the guym

That's why you don't up the doses ever. If you stop feeling any effect them come off for a week and let the beta receptors upregulate to normal again. Keep the doses low and you shouldn't have a problem with it. Just don't take it before or while you eat. Use the EC as an appetite suppressant and lipid oxidizer.


This is the main reason I'm questioning myself, whether I should take it on a slow bulk/maintenance or not, but even then, would 1x dose a day be fine?

On the site, they say to not drink Green Tea but if it was decaffeinated, I would think it's ok

It all comes down to tolerance level. Adjust all your supps by how your body reacts to them. They can only print one label but that doesn't mean there's only one way to use a substance.

[heytred]

Just don't take it before or while you eat.
n00b question: When exactly would you advise taking it?

[DenD359]

It all comes down to tolerance level. Adjust all your supps by how your body reacts to them. They can only print one label but that doesn't mean there's only one way to use a substance.

This is an interesting thread, it really is, as to those who really want to put on the leanest gains possible.

From what I analyze from you and this thread is that although it isn't a way to promote muscle mass gain such as drols supplement or testosterone booster, would you still recommend it at all in some ways to put on some LBM?

[heytred]

n00b question: When exactly would you advise taking it?
nvm, I searched a few threads on here and elsewhere and it says to take it on an empty stomach for best results... So say... 30 minutes prior to eating would be good?

[Wapadaigo]

nvm, I searched a few threads on here and elsewhere and it says to take it on an empty stomach for best results... So say... 30 minutes prior to eating would be good?

Yes 30 minutes is fine, but I would rec waiting until you start to feel the effects of not being hungry/as hungry ( hunger suppressant is the greater benefit than increased metabolic rate) which could be anywhere from 20 plus minutes depending on you.

No one can tell you better than you how your body will react to things. So there is no one size fits all for anything.

[heytred]

Yes 30 minutes is fine, but I would rec waiting until you start to feel the effects of not being hungry/as hungry ( hunger suppressant is the greater benefit than increased metabolic rate) which could be anywhere from 20 plus minutes depending on you.

No one can tell you better than you how your body will react to things. So there is no one size fits all for anything.
Alright thanks. I'll start implementing this tomorrow.

[Barn01]

nvm, I searched a few threads on here and elsewhere and it says to take it on an empty stomach for best results... So say... 30 minutes prior to eating would be good?

No that's not how you would take it. Take an EC stack a good 1-1.5h after a meal. If you're dieting then you should only be eating every 4-5h anyhow so this stack helps you get through until your next meal. As well you want to wait until you've basically got most of your food digested before you try to start burning and fat by activating the beta2 receptors. If you do it just before you eat or during then I'm predicting you'll be more prone to fat storage because you'll be opening up the fat bags if you will.

[heytred]

No that's not how you would take it. Take an EC stack a good 1-1.5h after a meal. If you're dieting then you should only be eating every 4-5h anyhow so this stack helps you get through until your next meal. As well you want to wait until you've basically got most of your food digested before you try to start burning and fat by activating the beta2 receptors. If you do it just before you eat or during then I'm predicting you'll be more prone to fat storage because you'll be opening up the fat bags if you will.
Thanks for the response... Now I don't know what I should do because I keep getting mixed answers. Guess I'll try this tomorrow and see how I feel and then decide on my own.

[Tussmann57]

Isn't this just going to be negated entirely from your withdrawal from the stack? Aka your appetite rebounds completely.

[eternalprimate]

Been on EC stack(25/200 twice a day. Which isn't alot for 6'2" 210lbs but I wanted to ease into it the first time) for about a month now. About to cycle off for a month or so then hop back on. I'm mostly just worried that I'm gonna be starving now that I don't have that appetite suppression anymore. Only real reason I'm cycling is I am a very firm believer in always keeping your body guessing. From diet, workouts, and supplements, I am constantly changing it all around.