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deadlift_405
05-23-2010, 06:25 PM
After training, weight lifting , training, weight lifting, I have realized how important technique and training really is. WOW, It really is unreal and how the "general" bodybuilder has no idea how much they are outclassed. This doesn't have anything to do with the latest Tim SIlvia fight, just my own observation after returning to train. I believe I will never again train like a bodybuilder and stick strickly to martial arts.

I have seen the light brotha's

Rambo66
05-23-2010, 06:33 PM
Best is to do both. If you can train and workout the strength will definetly help. But it's always technique over strength. But it sure as hell doesn't hurt to be alot stronger than your opponent.

AWhislyle
05-23-2010, 06:33 PM
Where does watching a bunch of MMA and not working out fit in?

parkerbro1
05-23-2010, 08:07 PM
Where does watching a bunch of MMA and not working out fit in?

in the one to two second mark.

Al Shades
05-23-2010, 08:28 PM
Technique matters a lot in MMA because MMA isn't real fighting, it's "combat ballet" played according to a pre-defined set of rules that is known by both opponents (be sure to -rep me for this).

In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day.

HardGainer82
05-23-2010, 09:24 PM
Technique matters in MMA because MMA isn't real fighting, it's "combat ballet" played according to a pre-defined set of rules that is known by both opponents (be sure to -rep me for this).

In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day.

lol @ combat ballet.

Thanks for the insight, red.

eatsleephate
05-23-2010, 09:30 PM
If, originally, you thought that muscle mass equated to fighting ability, you've been stupid from jump street.

Al Shades
05-23-2010, 09:47 PM
lol @ combat ballet.

Thanks for the insight, red.

Real fights don't have rules. They don't have refs. They don't have cages. Many of the things that mma fighters do in the ring would get them killed in short order in real life. All the "guards" for example would useless. Real fights end when someone gets killed or crippled.

Combat ballet is probably the best term to describe what happens when you water down fighting with all sorts of rules and regulations that don't exist in the real world.

mx3639
05-23-2010, 09:54 PM
Real fights don't have rules. They don't have refs. They don't have cages. Many of the things that mma fighters do in the ring would get them killed in short order in real life. All the "guards" for example would useless. Real fights end when someone gets killed or crippled.

Combat ballet is probably the best term to describe what happens when you water down fighting with all sorts of rules and regulations that don't exist in the real world.

troll harder

Al Shades
05-23-2010, 09:57 PM
troll harder

I'm not trolling, I'm stating an opinion.

The fact is, you can't make a legitimate sport out of combat. It simply isn't possible.

TylerManning
05-23-2010, 10:09 PM
Real fights don't have rules. They don't have refs. They don't have cages. Many of the things that mma fighters do in the ring would get them killed in short order in real life. All the "guards" for example would useless. Real fights end when someone gets killed or crippled.

Combat ballet is probably the best term to describe what happens when you water down fighting with all sorts of rules and regulations that don't exist in the real world.

street fights are so much easier than a cage fight for all of the reasons just listed. stop being so red, street fights are cake walks unless you are ridiculously outsized.

Al Shades
05-23-2010, 10:09 PM
What you call "good technique" is really the successful application of the highly specialized ruleset which MMA uses.

It's like getting really good at a board game through practice. Your skills probably won't transfer to different games because they are highly specialized.

In professional MMA, you can't grab the fence, can't grab your opponent's clothing, can't punch the back or side of his head, and if you pin him to the ground where he can't move the ref will stop the fight in order to stand you back up. That doesn't approximate real fighting in any way, shape, or form. It's combat ballet.

Few things that go on in MMA fights would happen in real life. You wouldn't see people clinch the way they do in mma because in a clinch, the logical thing to do is to pound the back and side of your opponent's head, his ears, etc...But that's not allowed in mma so an entire aspect of the sport has been created that has no relation to what actually goes on in real world combat. Same thing with pulling "guard" on the ground. You don't want to be caught lying on your back in a real world fight, period. But in the ring, some fighters actually use this to their advantage.


street fights are so much easier than a cage fight for all of the reasons just listed. stop being so red, street fights are cake walks unless you are ridiculously outsized.

How does it make it EASIER when you don't have a ref who will stop the fight when your opponent grabs your shorts, keeps you on the ground for too long, or makes some other "illegal move"? Even if mma were more difficult then real fighting, it still wouldn't be real fighting.

Any "combat sport," simply by virtue of having a pre-defined set of rules which both combatants are aware of, is much more predictable and thus easier than unpredictable, real-life combat.

MMA may have more possibilities than traditional martial arts but at the end of the day, it's still "canned fighting" with a finite set of possibilities for what can be done in any given situation.

I would not fear a trained MMA fighter in a real world combat situation. If anything, his knowledge would work against him.

Martial arts are pretty much a form of ballet which originated in Asian countries, so to call mma "combat ballet" really isn't far off the mark.

King Baer
05-23-2010, 10:29 PM
What you call "good technique" is really the successful application of the highly specialized ruleset which MMA uses.

It's like getting really good at a board game through practice. Your skills probably won't transfer to different games because they are highly specialized.

In professional MMA, you can't grab the fence, can't grab your opponent's clothing, can't punch the back or side of his head, and if you pin him to the ground where he can't move the ref will stop the fight in order to stand you back up. That doesn't approximate real fighting in any way, shape, or form. It's combat ballet.

Few things that go on in MMA fights would happen in real life. You wouldn't see people clinch the way they do in mma because in a clinch, the logical thing to do is to pound the back and side of your opponent's head, his ears, etc...But that's not allowed in mma so an entire aspect of the sport has been created that has no relation to what actually goes on in real world combat. Same thing with pulling "guard" on the ground. You don't want to be caught lying on your back in a real world fight, period. But in the ring, some fighters actually use this to their advantage.



How does it make it EASIER when you don't have a ref who will stop the fight when your opponent grabs your shorts, keeps you on the ground for too long, or makes some other "illegal move"? Even if mma were more difficult then real fighting, it still wouldn't be real fighting.

Any "combat sport," simply by virtue of having a pre-defined set of rules which both combatants are aware of, is much more predictable and thus easier than unpredictable, real-life combat.

MMA may have more possibilities than traditional martial arts but at the end of the day, it's still "canned fighting" with a finite set of possibilities for what can be done in any given situation.

I would not fear a trained MMA fighter in a real world combat situation. If anything, his knowledge would work against him.

Martial arts are pretty much a form of ballet which originated in Asian countries, so to call mma "combat ballet" really isn't far off the mark.


Come on guys he's trollin.


Good job tho homie.


Brb tellin people I'm a professional dancer now

HardGainer82
05-23-2010, 10:35 PM
Come on guys he's trollin.


Good job tho homie.


Brb tellin people I'm a professional dancer now

I'll admit he put in more effort than most of our trolls have been doing lately...

Al Shades
05-23-2010, 10:40 PM
I'm not a troll. I post things which people disagree with. But only because they are my genuine opinions.

Dmaul
05-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Al Shades, you should check out a local mma or bjj gym! It's a great workout and a lot of fun. I think you would love it.

Al Shades
05-23-2010, 11:21 PM
Al Shades, you should check out a local mma or bjj gym! It's a great workout and a lot of fun. I think you would love it.

Maybe. But I prefer bodybuilding.

mx3639
05-23-2010, 11:25 PM
Maybe. But I prefer bodybuilding.

lol /thread

Gizzyhardcore
05-23-2010, 11:31 PM
I'm not a troll. I post things which people disagree with. But only because they are my genuine opinions.

I actually think the man brings up some good points.

Reminds me of the epic Bruce Lee > GSP (in a streetfight) because thats what lee trained for.

But then a lot of what he is saying is way over exaggerated.. ie 1v1 if ur good at BJJ and other guy is just a street brawler then you on your back on the ground with him in your guard is very advantageous

guest89
05-23-2010, 11:36 PM
I'm not a troll. I post things which people disagree with. But only because they are my genuine opinions.
Ok, I'll bite, but I'll keep it brief.


Without getting into too many details, the reason why MMA fighter> random dude in a street fight, regardless of each others physical attributes, is simply because of the time put in by the MMA guy actually sparring/fighting.

I don't care who the hell you are, if you do something (fight) once a once a week at best for 10-15 minutes when you are drunk, you cannot last against someone who puts in several hours a day, every day, for months/years on end.

You seem to think rules are what protects the fighters, and they'll be in trouble on the streets, however have you ever thought how much more effective these fighters would be in the streets with NO rules? These are highly conditioned, well trained athletes fighting against others who have similar conditioning/skills. And if the rules weren't in place fights would end a lot faster.


The average person will gas within 30-60 seconds against an experienced opponent. (I guarantee you). They won't get in a lucky shot on a trained fighter within that time (while they are getting worn out), and you won't know what hit you when the fighter actually decide to finish you.


If you actually believe everything you say, I challenge you to go to your local BJJ, boxing, or MT school and do a sparring session. I'm not sure how big you are but I'm sure any competent 135-145lber will make you question your belief system when they soundly (and easily) beat you.

Canborn
05-23-2010, 11:39 PM
Technique matters a lot in MMA because MMA isn't real fighting, it's "combat ballet" played according to a pre-defined set of rules that is known by both opponents (be sure to -rep me for this).

In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day.

four Big differences in real world fights is 1- No gloves 2- No Vaseline 3- No real warm up 4- can't study opponent. That begin said if begin a decent street fighter or good a street fights made any cross over to MMA then Kimbo would maybe have won some more fights. Strength and power are good but will always ( other than extreme circumstances ) be trumped by technique. pick any trained MMA fighter against any random street fighter/brawler. The Trained MMA fighter wins 9/10 hands down maybe 8/10 due to lucky punch with no gloves.
That begin said do you really think that if The UFC and other organizations took all the rules out of play the current ranks would be that different than what they are now ?? Maybe fighter or two here or there but otherwise I would bet the ranks would be about the same.

Maiar
05-24-2010, 01:22 AM
I'm not trolling, I'm stating an opinion.

The fact is, you can't make a legitimate sport out of combat. It simply isn't possible.

Hey idiot. Shut up.

AWhislyle
05-24-2010, 02:37 AM
That begin said do you really think that if The UFC and other organizations took all the rules out of play the current ranks would be that different than what they are now ?? Maybe fighter or two here or there but otherwise I would bet the ranks would be about the same.

Probably would be all different people, as everyone would be blinded eunuchs after a few fights and would have to retire.

Clean
05-24-2010, 06:18 AM
four Big differences in real world fights is 1- No gloves 2- No Vaseline 3- No real warm up 4- can't study opponent. That begin said if begin a decent street fighter or good a street fights made any cross over to MMA then Kimbo would maybe have won some more fights. Strength and power are good but will always ( other than extreme circumstances ) be trumped by technique. pick any trained MMA fighter against any random street fighter/brawler. The Trained MMA fighter wins 9/10 hands down maybe 8/10 due to lucky punch with no gloves.
That begin said do you really think that if The UFC and other organizations took all the rules out of play the current ranks would be that different than what they are now ?? Maybe fighter or two here or there but otherwise I would bet the ranks would be about the same.

I would say the MMA fighter wins more like 10/10 because of the fact that most people don't know how to throw a decent punch using their hips or wide looping punches which are easy to block. Most people don't know how to block either.

JAGERBOY
05-24-2010, 06:39 AM
What you call "good technique" is really the successful application of the highly specialized ruleset which MMA uses.

It's like getting really good at a board game through practice. Your skills probably won't transfer to different games because they are highly specialized.

In professional MMA, you can't grab the fence, can't grab your opponent's clothing, can't punch the back or side of his head, and if you pin him to the ground where he can't move the ref will stop the fight in order to stand you back up. That doesn't approximate real fighting in any way, shape, or form. It's combat ballet.

Few things that go on in MMA fights would happen in real life. You wouldn't see people clinch the way they do in mma because in a clinch, the logical thing to do is to pound the back and side of your opponent's head, his ears, etc...But that's not allowed in mma so an entire aspect of the sport has been created that has no relation to what actually goes on in real world combat. Same thing with pulling "guard" on the ground. You don't want to be caught lying on your back in a real world fight, period. But in the ring, some fighters actually use this to their advantage.



How does it make it EASIER when you don't have a ref who will stop the fight when your opponent grabs your shorts, keeps you on the ground for too long, or makes some other "illegal move"? Even if mma were more difficult then real fighting, it still wouldn't be real fighting.

Any "combat sport," simply by virtue of having a pre-defined set of rules which both combatants are aware of, is much more predictable and thus easier than unpredictable, real-life combat.

MMA may have more possibilities than traditional martial arts but at the end of the day, it's still "canned fighting" with a finite set of possibilities for what can be done in any given situation.

I would not fear a trained MMA fighter in a real world combat situation. If anything, his knowledge would work against him.

Martial arts are pretty much a form of ballet which originated in Asian countries, so to call mma "combat ballet" really isn't far off the mark.
Based on this I can tell you have never trained or been in a clinch of any kind. I can also tell you are fairly ignornat to MMA as you've stated several times its against the rules to hit the side of the head.

Or, you're just a troll.

Clark_Kent
05-24-2010, 06:42 AM
Let somebody try and armbar me on the streets. They are getting their balls ripped off.

JAGERBOY
05-24-2010, 06:49 AM
Let somebody try and armbar me on the streets. They are getting their balls ripped off.

If someone puts me in a Thai clinch in the streets Ill just punch them in the face or push them off me with my strong triceps I developed from years of close grip bench. There is no way they could keep in the clinch. I am bodybuilder.

Clark_Kent
05-24-2010, 07:01 AM
If someone puts me in a Thai clinch in the streets Ill just punch them in the face or push them off me with my strong triceps I developed from years of close grip bench. There is no way they could keep in the clinch. I am bodybuilder.

I am hearing you roar brah.

deadlift_405
05-24-2010, 07:06 AM
If someone puts me in a Thai clinch in the streets Ill just punch them in the face or push them off me with my strong triceps I developed from years of close grip bench. There is no way they could keep in the clinch. I am bodybuilder.


Your not even 180 lbs?

Clark_Kent
05-24-2010, 07:10 AM
Your not even 180 lbs?

Pfffffttttttt

JAGERBOY
05-24-2010, 07:14 AM
Your not even 180 lbs?

Whats you're point?

King Baer
05-24-2010, 07:26 AM
So is Bruce Lee techincally a bodybuilder?

Clark_Kent
05-24-2010, 07:29 AM
So is Bruce Lee techincally a bodybuilder?

Dude WAS mad striated.



Is it possible to train MMA or streetfighting and still do bodybuilding type workouts?

Jas_M
05-24-2010, 07:30 AM
I have never seen anyone troll as hard as this Al Shades guy. lol

Is he serious?

And if you really think you can get out of a clinch that easy, you are quite dilusional.

JAGERBOY
05-24-2010, 07:30 AM
Dude WAS mad striated.



Is it possible to train MMA or streetfighting and still do bodybuilding type workouts?

Yeah man. I'd recommend a lot of bench press for punching power and leg extensions for kicks.

Clark_Kent
05-24-2010, 07:33 AM
Yeah man. I'd recommend a lot of bench press for punching power and leg extensions for kicks.

I seriously had never thought of doing leg extensions for that purpose.


That makes perfect sense after seeing Marius' kicking form.

RedMaster
05-24-2010, 08:30 AM
Technique matters a lot in MMA because MMA isn't real fighting, it's "combat ballet" played according to a pre-defined set of rules that is known by both opponents (be sure to -rep me for this).

In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day.

It is a sport like any other. In "the real world" if someone assaults me with the intent to kill or harm me they will have a very short conversation with a .45 round. You are trolling.

boulderfighter
05-24-2010, 09:39 AM
Real fights don't have rules. They don't have refs. They don't have cages. Many of the things that mma fighters do in the ring would get them killed in short order in real life. All the "guards" for example would useless. Real fights end when someone gets killed or crippled.

Combat ballet is probably the best term to describe what happens when you water down fighting with all sorts of rules and regulations that don't exist in the real world.

FACT: 85% of all fights end up on the ground

So having a "guard" is useless?

Lifting is important to develope good strength and balance to fight, but if you really think that it's going to win you the fight against technique you're going to ve in for a very rude awakening.

Not trying to pick a fight with you or act like a keyboard warrior, but we have a **** ton of the "bodybuilder" "streetfighter" types come into our gym and it never goes very well for them.

Tell you what if you apologize and say "pretty, pretty please" I'll give you your arm back after I rip it off in my guard

I've heard this stupid ass arguement a million times. Someone will say "Well in a streetfight I could gouge your eyes and kick you in the balls and grab your clothes, ha ha ha!" LIKE WE DON'T GET THAT, AS IF WE REALLY WOULDN'T CONSIDER DOING THAT STUFF IN THE STREET. HERE'S THE DEAL JACK: YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO GO FOR MY EYES OR KICK ME IN THE BALLS, BUT I CAN STILL KICK YOU IN THE BALLS 100X FASTER, HARDER AND MORE ACCURATELY THAN YOU COULD EVER DREAM OF HITTING ME IN THE JUNK.

P.S.: Leg extentions will do almost nothing for kicks, we use our hips not our upper leg muscles to generate power. Bench pressses aren't exactly a functional exercise for punching we tend toward lots of upper back, core and tricep exercises to build punching power...

boulderfighter
05-24-2010, 09:55 AM
Whats you're point?

I think the point he was making is that you won't be pushing off a trained fighter who weighs the same as you do. Don't kid yourself fighters are everybit as strong as a bodybuilder pound for pound and even STRONGER from a functional stand point.

Clark_Kent
05-24-2010, 09:56 AM
I think the point he was making is that you won't be pushing off a trained fighter who weighs the same as you do. Don't kid yourself fighters are everybit as strong as a bodybuilder pound for pound and even STRONGER from a functional stand point.

Not really.

cluckett87
05-24-2010, 10:20 AM
Let somebody try and armbar me on the streets. They are getting their balls ripped off.


Impossible. I wear my cup everywhere. I even shower with mine on after a workout. Never know when you will need it.

neekz0r
05-24-2010, 10:32 AM
I think the point he was making is that you won't be pushing off a trained fighter who weighs the same as you do. Don't kid yourself fighters are everybit as strong as a bodybuilder pound for pound and even STRONGER from a functional stand point.

Eeerrrr... no... after grappling with several bodybuilder types, I can say we aren't 'stronger'. I would say, however, that we are more efficient in our strength ... making it seem like we're stronger then we are. IE: When I was grappling against a wrestler who outweighed me by 100 pounds, he commented that it felt like I was stronger then he... I wasn't, I just had good base and posture.

Blue Blazer
05-24-2010, 10:45 AM
why would anyone want to train like a bodybuilder if they're training in any form of martial art? Bodybuilding is a sport of its own, you train hard and eat a precise diet and compete on stage, the goal is to look great.

In MMA, the only thing we could take out of a bodybuilder's book is having a solid diet. We need to have functional strength. Bodybuilders train to look jacked and many of them aren't that strong, some are mind you, but that isn't their goal. Anyone training in MMA wants to be strong, fast, explosive and functional.

So a training program suitable for MMA would be powerlifting templates that are gear free. Like 5/3/1, WSB4SB, WSB template with less accessory work, etc. These types of programs would be great because you can keep the core of the workout and modify the accessory workout to suit your goals that are mma related.

King Baer
05-24-2010, 12:21 PM
I have a fight coming up soon.. do you guys recommend close-grip or wide-grip bench for punching power?

My takedowns are good because I've been doing a lot of upright rows. I'll just lift the guy up if he grabs onto me.

steve38
05-24-2010, 12:28 PM
I have a fight coming up soon.. do you guys recommend close-grip or wide-grip bench for punching power?

My takedowns are good because I've been doing a lot of upright rows. I'll just lift the guy up if he grabs onto me.

Now you're getting it! Don't forget to do lots of curls so you can power out of any armbars those weak little girly men try to throw on you.

iamgenus
05-24-2010, 12:45 PM
Al Shades I got two words for you

Bas Rutten

Al Shades
05-24-2010, 01:44 PM
Ok, I'll bite, but I'll keep it brief.

Without getting into too many details, the reason why MMA fighter> random dude in a street fight, regardless of each others physical attributes, is simply because of the time put in by the MMA guy actually sparring/fighting.

I don't care who the hell you are, if you do something (fight) once a once a week at best for 10-15 minutes when you are drunk, you cannot last against someone who puts in several hours a day, every day, for months/years on end.

You seem to think rules are what protects the fighters, and they'll be in trouble on the streets, however have you ever thought how much more effective these fighters would be in the streets with NO rules? These are highly conditioned, well trained athletes fighting against others who have similar conditioning/skills. And if the rules weren't in place fights would end a lot faster.

The average person will gas within 30-60 seconds against an experienced opponent. (I guarantee you). They won't get in a lucky shot on a trained fighter within that time (while they are getting worn out), and you won't know what hit you when the fighter actually decide to finish you.

If you actually believe everything you say, I challenge you to go to your local BJJ, boxing, or MT school and do a sparring session. I'm not sure how big you are but I'm sure any competent 135-145lber will make you question your belief system when they soundly (and easily) beat you.

Psyche, cardio, chin, and striking ability are all traits that professional fighters develop for their sports which would benefit them in any combat situation, including street fights. So I don't deny what you said there. But the comparison is skewed because you're comparing people who fight for a living (albeit in a watered down version) with people who don't. Put your pro-mma fighters vs pro street fighters in a no-holds-barred match and suddenly the equation changes.


I have never seen anyone troll as hard as this Al Shades guy. lol

Is he serious?

And if you really think you can get out of a clinch that easy, you are quite dilusional.

I never said it was easy to get out of a clinch. All I said was that many things would happen in a real world clinch situation that aren't allowed in MMA because of the rules. You can't intelligently deny this. Not when referee stoppages/separations are such a common aspect of MMA.

I also never said that bodybuilders had any advantage in fighting. For the record, they don't. I train bodybuilding because that's my personal preference, not because I think it's going to turn me into a great fighter. I don't particularly care about my fighting skills, I care about developing a muscular physique. The reason I don't take up fighting is because I think the purpose of a fight is to kill or disable your opponent in any way possible, and murder isn't currently legal.


It is a sport like any other. In "the real world" if someone assaults me with the intent to kill or harm me they will have a very short conversation with a .45 round. You are trolling.

No, I'm not trolling. I'm making a legitimate point which you, yourself admit. It is impossible to turn fighting into a real sport because real fights end when someone gets crippled or dies. The avoidance of either of those scenarios necessitates the introduction of rules which substantially change the nature of the activity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_martial_arts_rules


In addition to the common fouls, PRIDE Fighting Championships considers elbow strikes to the head and face to be fouls.

In the event that a fighter is injured by illegal actions, then at the discretion of the referee and ring doctor, the round is resumed after enough time has been given for the fighter to recover. If the match cannot be continued due to the severity of the injury then the fighter who perpetrated the action will be disqualified.

If both fighters are on the verge of falling out of the ring or become entangled in the ropes, the referee will stop the action. The fighters must immediately stop their movements and will then be repositioned in the center of the ring in the same position. Once they are comfortably repositioned, they resume at the referee's instruction.

The following are fouls, as set out by the Nevada State Athletic Commission:[4]

* Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
* Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
* Grabbing the clavicle.
* Downward elbows to the head of an opponent.
* Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
* Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
* Stomping a grounded opponent.
* Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. (see piledriver)
* Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
* Spitting at an opponent.
* Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
* Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
* Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
* Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
* Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
* Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
* Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
* Interference by the corner.
* Throwing in the towel during competition. (forfeit)

Fouls

The following acts are universally considered fouls in the mixed martial arts world:

* Headbutting.
* Eye gouging.
* Hair pulling.
* Biting.
* Fish-hooking.
* Attacking the groin.
* Strikes to the back of the head and spinal area. (see rabbit punch)
* Strikes to, or grabs of the trachea.
* Small joint manipulation (control of three or more fingers/toes is necessary).
* Intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring/cage.
* Running out of the ring/cage.
* Purposely holding the ring ropes or cage fence.
* Grabbing or putting a hand inside the trunks or gloves of the opponent.
* Pulling or holding onto an opponent's gloves or trunks.

Headbutts were prohibited because it was a technique that required little effort and could quickly turn the match into a bloody mess. Headbutting was common among wrestlers because their skill in takedowns allowed them to quickly transfer bouts to the ground where they could assault opponents with headbutts while not being required to alter their position.

^ That's not real fighting. It's combat ballet.

Al Shades
05-24-2010, 01:47 PM
why would anyone want to train like a bodybuilder if they're training in any form of martial art? Bodybuilding is a sport of its own, you train hard and eat a precise diet and compete on stage, the goal is to look great.

Where do you see anyone advocating bodybuilding-style training for a fighter?

Al Shades
05-24-2010, 01:52 PM
I've heard this stupid ass arguement a million times. Someone will say "Well in a streetfight I could gouge your eyes and kick you in the balls and grab your clothes, ha ha ha!" LIKE WE DON'T GET THAT, AS IF WE REALLY WOULDN'T CONSIDER DOING THAT STUFF IN THE STREET. HERE'S THE DEAL JACK: YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO GO FOR MY EYES OR KICK ME IN THE BALLS, BUT I CAN STILL KICK YOU IN THE BALLS 100X FASTER, HARDER AND MORE ACCURATELY THAN YOU COULD EVER DREAM OF HITTING ME IN THE JUNK.

Invalid comparison. You're still not comparing people who train for fighting WITH rules to people who train for fighting WITHOUT rules. You're comparing people who train for fighting to people who don't, period. Obviously, the trained fighter, not matter what sport he competes in, will have the advantage in that situation. That doesn't refute the point I'm making.

As much as you'd love to turn this into another "bodybuilders vs fighters" discussion, that has nothing to do with what I posted.

HardGainer82
05-24-2010, 02:14 PM
There's no such thing as a "professional street fighter" in real life...

aeons
05-24-2010, 02:16 PM
I have a fight coming up soon.. do you guys recommend close-grip or wide-grip bench for punching power?

My takedowns are good because I've been doing a lot of upright rows. I'll just lift the guy up if he grabs onto me.
I would actually reccomend you to do 200 bicep curls then without resting 10 jumping jacks for that der punching powah!

Al Shades
05-24-2010, 02:24 PM
There's no such thing as a "professional street fighter" in real life...

Then make one.

HardGainer82
05-24-2010, 02:26 PM
Then make one.

Why? You're the one talking about them...perhaps a person who trains "street fighting" to the level and depth that a pro MMA fighter trains MMA would prevail in a street fight, but no one does that.

Al Shades
05-24-2010, 02:29 PM
Why? You're the one talking about them...perhaps a person who trains "street fighting" to the level and depth that a pro MMA fighter trains MMA would prevail in a street fight, but no one does that.

So then, you don't disagree with my point that mma fighting and real fighting (aka "street fighting") are different games?

Kozma
05-24-2010, 02:32 PM
Real fights don't have rules. They don't have refs. They don't have cages. Many of the things that mma fighters do in the ring would get them killed in short order in real life. All the "guards" for example would useless. Real fights end when someone gets killed or crippled.

Combat ballet is probably the best term to describe what happens when you water down fighting with all sorts of rules and regulations that don't exist in the real world.

Get in a BJJ black belt's guard in a real fight and see how long your arm stays intact ****ing poser

Al Shades
05-24-2010, 02:35 PM
Get in a BJJ black belt's guard in a real fight and see how long your arm stays intact ****ing poser

I see that you live up to your tagline. Speaking of BJJ, how come all of the Gracie's disappeared from MMA after the "streetfighters" left the sport in the 90's?

How come they are no longer even top 20?

Could it be because they were one-trick ponies? Maybe because BJJ is over-rated?

eddiegoodfellar
05-24-2010, 02:39 PM
Your argument is like saying that an NBA player could not beat a "pro street ball" player because there are less rules in street ball.

Kozma
05-24-2010, 02:42 PM
I see that you live up to your tagline. Speaking of BJJ, how come all of the Gracie's disappeared from MMA after the "streetfighters" left the sport in the 90's?

How come they are no longer even top 20?

Could it be because they were one-trick ponies? Maybe because BJJ is over-rated?

Logical fallacy

The gracies (well maybe Rickson was) never were the best BJJ artists. Royce Gracie was not even close to the best BJJ guy in 1993. BJJ completely dominated even under a much less restrictive ruleset that you seem to have a hard on for.

BJJ (or another grappling art) is now REQUIRED to compete successfully in MMA.

TwistedTeak
05-24-2010, 02:42 PM
The Al Shades guy has a point because he's narrowed his argument down so much to basically "if a streetfighter and an MMA fighter have the same level of ability, the streetfighter will win because he has more moves at his disposal."

Obviously this statement is true but your premise is that MMA fighters would apply competition rules in a street fight...

I'm pretty your average MMA fighter in a bar brawl will be gouging and hooking with the best of them.

Kozma
05-24-2010, 02:46 PM
The Al Shades guy has a point because he's narrowed his argument down so much to basically "if a streetfighter and an MMA fighter have the same level of ability, the streetfighter will win because he has more moves at his disposal."

Obviously this statement is true but your premise is that MMA fighters would apply competition rules in a street fight...

I'm pretty your average MMA fighter in a bar brawl will be gouging and hooking with the best of them.

Street fights are not eye gouge fests. In the dozen or so fights I've witnessed, in the hundreds my friends have witnessed, in the thousands I've heard of, eye gouging is a very rare occurrence.

Of course eye gouges are very effective and incapacitating. But I've never seen them used in even the most brutal fights

TwistedTeak
05-24-2010, 02:48 PM
Street fights are not eye gouge fests. In the dozen or so fights I've witnessed, in the hundreds my friends have witnessed, in the thousands I've heard of, eye gouging is a very rare occurrence.

Of course eye gouges are very effective and incapacitating. But I've never seen them used in even the most brutal fights
My point isn't about gouging, it's about not playing by the rules.

HardGainer82
05-24-2010, 02:48 PM
So then, you don't disagree with my point that mma fighting and real fighting (aka "street fighting") are different games?

Of course they are. But doing one vs. the other doesn't guarantee victory in either direction. A trained MMA fighter has just as many tricks that a street fighter doesn't know as vice versa. Being able to throw groin shots and eye gouges doesn't really bring anything that an MMA fighter won't possibly predict, just like a "real" fighter might know what a leg kick is, but that doesn't mean he won't get his ACL ripped out if he doesn't check one.


I see that you live up to your tagline. Speaking of BJJ, how come all of the Gracie's disappeared from MMA after the "streetfighters" left the sport in the 90's?

How come they are no longer even top 20?

Could it be because they were one-trick ponies? Maybe because BJJ is over-rated?

No, it's because everyone knows BJJ now. The guard being useless, as you put it before, is a really silly concept. Sure, no one PULLS guard in a street fight, but if you end up on your back it's pretty damn useful to know what to do from there. I'll gloss over your apparent inability to acknowledge BJJ having a top game, and tell you about the time I got tackled in a bar by a "street fighter." He must not have been a professional, because I grabbed his arm, trapped it, rolled him onto his face, and held him there until the bouncer showed up.

fishoildick
05-24-2010, 02:56 PM
an mma fighter who knows whats going on on the street


D3K-mrlYG7Y

QB_Killa
05-24-2010, 05:30 PM
UFC 1 was basically street rules and we all know what happened there

gspmmafan
05-24-2010, 06:01 PM
Don't know why I read the entire thread but damn Dec 2004 with 3,988 posts and you are trolling hard.

neekz0r
05-24-2010, 06:30 PM
I see that you live up to your tagline. Speaking of BJJ, how come all of the Gracie's disappeared from MMA after the "streetfighters" left the sport in the 90's?

How come they are no longer even top 20?

Could it be because they were one-trick ponies? Maybe because BJJ is over-rated?

Usually one of two reasons. Because BJJ is a survival art, it's designed so that a smaller guy can take on a larger guy and survive. Because of this, the rules for UFC don't illicitly favor BJJ -- that is, get 'em in guard, tire them out, and armbar them. And it makes for a boring fight, for sure. But it's about survival, not fighting.

Now for the reasons:

1) Helio discouraged it. He said he fought to prove that BJJ was the best martial art. He saw no need to fight once Vale Tudo and early UFC "proved" that BJJ was superior.

2) Many of them favor BJJ over MMA. MMA isn't a martial art, although it's based on martial arts, obviously.

Bonus reason:
3) There are only a few competing Gracies in BJJ, even in BJJ. Most of the older generation are professors now. They've passed the torch, so to speak, to non-Gracies. Admittedly, the passing of the torch hasn't been entirely purposeful...

And BJJ being over-rated? In what way? Any MMA fighter must be passably familiar with BJJ to be taken seriously... it's the one constant virtually every MMA fighter must have. I don't see how that is "over-rated".

klemme
05-25-2010, 12:05 AM
After training, weight lifting , training, weight lifting, I have realized how important technique and training really is. WOW, It really is unreal and how the "general" bodybuilder has no idea how much they are outclassed. This doesn't have anything to do with the latest Tim SIlvia fight, just my own observation after returning to train. I believe I will never again train like a bodybuilder and stick strickly to martial arts.

I have seen the light brotha's


well if you see the light on how "useless" bodybuilding is, then how about you GTFO of a website made for bodybuilders.

of course an mma fighter is going to beat a bodybuilder in a fight most of the time. I was one of the strongest guys at my mma gym when i was training, and i can say this bluntly... i was one of the worst dudes there for awhile, because i tried to rely on strength.

Someone would be a fool to think a guy like Jay Cutler could trade blows with a guy like Carwin and not get KTFO, but bodybuilders don't lift to kick people's ass, they lift because they are driven and want to compete on stage. It's more of a lifestyle then mma is.

I love watching mma now, and i would certainly love to train again one day, but mma fanboys are quick to discredit bodybuilders... but imo, bodybuilding diets/living a true bodybuilding lifestyle requires AT LEAST as much dedication as it takes to make it in high level mma, if not more. Read up on Jay cutler's lifestyle or diet... that guy is more hardcore than a guy like Carwin with his training and dedication. (no hate on Carwin, one of my favorite fighters... just an example)


If you wanna do mma, train to do mma. Obviously you aren't trying to be a high level bodybuilder if MMA is your passion. But this is a bodybuilding website, and well, STFU if you don't like how bodybuilders train.

Amoral
05-25-2010, 12:45 AM
I agree with the idea of what is above me. A lot of people in this section hate on bodybuilding and act like its a joke yet they had to of been curious about bodybuilding at one point otherwise they would have never got here. Also bodybuilding is relevant to professional MMA because if you look great chances are you will get more sponsors and sponsors will pay for you to train.

Dmaul
05-25-2010, 12:54 AM
but imo, bodybuilding diets/living a true bodybuilding lifestyle requires AT LEAST as much dedication as it takes to make it in high level mma, if not more.


i agree, bodybuilding takes a crazy amount of effort and dedication. in mma you can get a lucky shot off, but not in bodybuilding.

KRILLEN91
05-25-2010, 01:46 AM
OP if you want to be the best fighter you can be obviously you should place more emphasis on training and technique. However, it would be very unwise to completely stop lifting weights because weights is 1 way to greatly increase your strength and improve your body composition. So really you should still be lifting.

someonefat
05-25-2010, 01:58 AM
technique is important

brilliant new idea great thread

















You train martial arts to get good at martial arts. You train bodybuilding to look better. People could care less about fighting and rather look better and be healthy so do simple weight training/cardio. Different goals for different people. Been training martial arts for about a year and never plan to fight outside of a gym because its stupid I do it purely because I enjoy the sport. Just like average lifter at gym just lifts to look better feel better not to show off how alpha he is.

King Baer
05-25-2010, 06:52 AM
This thread has been really helpful for me. I feel like I've been doing this all wrong.. yes, I had some success as a fighter in the past with my teachers, but now I realize there isn't much about fighting that a blackbelt in BJJ and a world champ in Muay Thai can show me.

So I split ways with my coaches. My boy Freddy from HS can bench 370lbs (he's only 180!), so he's going to start training me. It's like.. what's the point of having technique if you can't squat 3x your bodyweight?

I also got this guy Loco Louie to be my MMA coach. He gets drunk at the corner bar and beats up HS kids. Since he has real combat experience I think he'll be able to really show me what's up.

I am going to be unstoppable!!

I'd give you guys more details but I have to go do back/bi's today and listen to Disturbed.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 07:40 AM
well if you see the light on how "useless" bodybuilding is, then how about you GTFO of a website made for bodybuilders.


Or you could GTFO of the MMA fighting section...no hate, just saying.

livewire57
05-25-2010, 12:12 PM
lol, so much ignorance in this thread from a group of e-tough guys who have probably never been in a fight in their life.

I sometimes peruse the forums at sherdog.com, and a thread popped up on their Standup Fighting forum about this very thread, take a look.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/meatheads-lol-1217173/

You idiot bodybuilders have no idea what you're talking about. But don't take it from me, take it from the fighters themselves.

someonefat
05-25-2010, 12:18 PM
lol, so much ignorance in this thread from a group of e-tough guys who have probably never been in a fight in their life.

I sometimes peruse the forums at sherdog.com, and a thread popped up on their Standup Fighting forum about this very thread, take a look.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/meatheads-lol-1217173/

You idiot bodybuilders have no idea what you're talking about. But don't take it from me, take it from the fighters themselves.

from that thread from a non white belt

"Streetfights dont mean anything.

A trained mmartist can spend years learning technical defense and offense of kick, knee, sweep and armbar, where as a 300 pound football player can tackle you to a desk and permanently disable you for life in a second. "

Fighting in street is retarded way too many variables plus never seen a fight break out where its just two guys. Though yes a trained fighter in a open environment one on one vs a non trained guy who has no weapons or friends will most likely win. Then end up in jail.

Dont fight in streets its stupid

JAGERBOY
05-25-2010, 12:22 PM
This thread has been really helpful for me. I feel like I've been doing this all wrong.. yes, I had some success as a fighter in the past with my teachers, but now I realize there isn't much about fighting that a blackbelt in BJJ and a world champ in Muay Thai can show me.

So I split ways with my coaches. My boy Freddy from HS can bench 370lbs (he's only 180!), so he's going to start training me. It's like.. what's the point of having technique if you can't squat 3x your bodyweight?

I also got this guy Loco Louie to be my MMA coach. He gets drunk at the corner bar and beats up HS kids. Since he has real combat experience I think he'll be able to really show me what's up.

I am going to be unstoppable!!

I'd give you guys more details but I have to go do back/bi's today and listen to Disturbed.
Hey brah I think you're making the right choice. Seriously I don't see how training rep after rep in Jiu-jitsu can help you beat a really strong guy on the ground. Also who cares if they spar countless rounds....THEIRS NO HEAD GEAR IN THE STREETS! If one of those mma dudes tried a leg kick on me I'd just flex my quads to shield it and laugh as I punched his face in. Also all the ground stuff doesn't work. You grab my arm I'll just lift you up in the air and slam you, I can also curl the 75lb dumbells, pretty sure I can rip my arm out from some little mma fighter lol.

livewire57
05-25-2010, 12:24 PM
from that thread from a non white belt

"Streetfights dont mean anything.

A trained mmartist can spend years learning technical defense and offense of kick, knee, sweep and armbar, where as a 300 pound football player can tackle you to a desk and permanently disable you for life in a second. "

Fighting in street is retarded way too many variables plus never seen a fight break out where its just two guys. Though yes a trained fighter in a open environment one on one vs a non trained guy who has no weapons or friends will most likely win. Then end up in jail.

Dont fight in streets its stupid

Not sure what the point of your post was, I never mentioned street fights or anything.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with everything you said. I strongly oppose street fighting under any circumstance, unless you are directly threatened with physical violence. And even then, it's best to neutralize your opponent and get the hell out of there fast.

Most fighters would agree with me.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 01:35 PM
^ I know I do, I've been in a couple street fights since I've been training, someone finds out you train and wants to be billy badass and **** with you...Street fights suck, you get spit on and get bad cuts and scrapes if the fight go's to the ground, that's where my better game is so my fights always go to ground, one power slam onto the concrete has stopped it twice now. As for the other times you can get busted up pretty good for the 60 seconds when the other guys isn't totally gassed lol

QB_Killa
05-25-2010, 01:43 PM
lol, so much ignorance in this thread from a group of e-tough guys who have probably never been in a fight in their life.

I sometimes peruse the forums at sherdog.com, and a thread popped up on their Standup Fighting forum about this very thread, take a look.

http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f11/meatheads-lol-1217173/

You idiot bodybuilders have no idea what you're talking about. But don't take it from me, take it from the fighters themselves.

you do realise there's probably more people itt than the one on sherdog who actually train/fight? Sherdog = bunch of kids in their mums basement bashing fighters becuase their life sucks

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 01:56 PM
You do realize there's probably more people itt than the one on sherdog who actually train/fight? Sherdog = bunch of kids in their moms basement bashing fighters because their life sucks.

I fixed most of your spelling and grammar for you, couldn't decipher what part of that said so I left it alone.

Anyway the thing about fighters is that we could care less what some roided up meat-head that has never stepped foot on the mat has to say about us. If you don't conclusively know something to be a fact then don't spew your idiocy in a public place.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 01:56 PM
Your argument is like saying that an NBA player could not beat a "pro street ball" player because there are less rules in street ball.

No. I think street ball has more in common with pro ball than street fighting with mma.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 01:58 PM
Logical fallacy

The gracies (well maybe Rickson was) never were the best BJJ artists. Royce Gracie was not even close to the best BJJ guy in 1993.

That's not what I heard. Why do they get so much respect, in that case?

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 02:02 PM
I'll gloss over your apparent inability to acknowledge BJJ having a top game, and tell you about the time I got tackled in a bar by a "street fighter." He must not have been a professional, because I grabbed his arm, trapped it, rolled him onto his face, and held him there until the bouncer showed up.

You probably faced someone with no combat experience. Obviously you won, because he was a novice.


UFC 1 was basically street rules and we all know what happened there

Did anyone die or get maimed?


Don't know why I read the entire thread but damn Dec 2004 with 3,988 posts and you are trolling hard.

Do you really think it's impossible for someone to genuinely hold an opinion which goes against what the majority believe?


And BJJ being over-rated? In what way? Any MMA fighter must be passably familiar with BJJ to be taken seriously... it's the one constant virtually every MMA fighter must have. I don't see how that is "over-rated".

It's over-rated in my view because the success rate for BJJ moves is poor. Probably 75% of the time that a sub is attempted in an mma fight, it fails.

In real world combat, the failure rate would be even higher because the person defending the sub would have more options available to him, like eye gouging.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 02:07 PM
That's not what I heard. Why do they get so much respect, in that case?

Because Helio Gracie invented Jujitsu and taught it to his son's. The Gracies were the original practitioners

JUSA
05-25-2010, 02:11 PM
Best is to do both. If you can train and workout the strength will definetly help. But it's always technique over strength. But it sure as hell doesn't hurt to be alot stronger than your opponent. Bodybuilders, while somewhat strong, exclusively lift for hypertrophy and not any kind of performance or strength. I'd rather get into a scrape with a jacked bodybuilder than a well-trained powerlifter, for example.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 02:15 PM
Because Helio Gracie invented Jujitsu and taught it to his son's. The Gracies were the original practitioners

I find that hard to believe. It's just physics and joint manipulation, which has been a part of eastern martial arts for centuries. I'm sure they put their own take on it, but techniques similar to that existed in the past.

Don't get too hung up on the names, think in terms of what they actually describe.
There is a lot of overlap between different schools of fighting that originated in different parts of the world.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 02:16 PM
It's over-rated in my view because the success rate for BJJ moves is poor. Probably 75% of the time that a sub is attempted in an mma fight, it fails.

In real world combat, the failure rate would be even higher because the person defending the sub would have more options available to him, look eye gouging.


At first glance that would seem true, however do you know why only 75%(A guessed number at best) of submission work in M.M.A.? It's because those fighters drill how to get out of them for hours upon hours. As well as the fact that all those techniques are applied with control so as not to injure the opponent. If I were in a street fight with no rules and put someone in an arm-bar, sure they could bite a chunk out of my leg, but then I would just tear their arm off.

Shogun893
05-25-2010, 02:21 PM
Because Helio Gracie invented Jujitsu and taught it to his son's. The Gracies were the original practitioners

Carlos Sr. taught Helio and the rest of his brothers.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 02:22 PM
I find that hard to believe. It's just physics and joint manipulation, which has been a part of eastern martial arts for centuries. I'm sure they put their own take on it, but techniques similar to that existed in the past.

Don't get too hung up on the names, think in terms of what they actually describe.
There is a lot of overlap between different schools of fighting that originated in different parts of the world.

I actually agree with you on this one, many of the techniques that comprise jujitsu are taken from other martial arts, However Helio changed and added many things and was just the first to put the techniques together in that way. Just because someone gives you the paint doesn't mean that the art isn't yours.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 02:27 PM
Carlos Sr. taught Helio and the rest of his brothers.

was trying to keep things simple but if you want to get technical Mitsuyo Maeda taught Carlos and Carlos taught his brothers.

someonefat
05-25-2010, 02:30 PM
Because Helio Gracie invented Jujitsu and taught it to his son's. The Gracies were the original practitioners

We have wrestled and used submission style wrestling for centuries. We as humans are more suited for grappling then striking, look at how like monkeys fight they grapple. Grappling is the oldest form of combat been around forever.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/Pankratiasten_in_fight_copy_of_greek_statue_3_cent ury_bC.jpg/360px-Pankratiasten_in_fight_copy_of_greek_statue_3_cent ury_bC.jpg

deadlift_405
05-25-2010, 02:35 PM
well if you see the light on how "useless" bodybuilding is, then how about you GTFO of a website made for bodybuilders.

of course an mma fighter is going to beat a bodybuilder in a fight most of the time. I was one of the strongest guys at my mma gym when i was training, and i can say this bluntly... i was one of the worst dudes there for awhile, because i tried to rely on strength.

Someone would be a fool to think a guy like Jay Cutler could trade blows with a guy like Carwin and not get KTFO, but bodybuilders don't lift to kick people's ass, they lift because they are driven and want to compete on stage. It's more of a lifestyle then mma is.

I love watching mma now, and i would certainly love to train again one day, but mma fanboys are quick to discredit bodybuilders... but imo, bodybuilding diets/living a true bodybuilding lifestyle requires AT LEAST as much dedication as it takes to make it in high level mma, if not more. Read up on Jay cutler's lifestyle or diet... that guy is more hardcore than a guy like Carwin with his training and dedication. (no hate on Carwin, one of my favorite fighters... just an example)


If you wanna do mma, train to do mma. Obviously you aren't trying to be a high level bodybuilder if MMA is your passion. But this is a bodybuilding website, and well, STFU if you don't like how bodybuilders train.


Jeez mellow out, I didn't mention anything about bodybuilding #1 i said weight lifting (Difference) Second, I am training, and third, this is a section for MMA.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 02:36 PM
That's not what I heard. Why do they get so much respect, in that case?

Because they were the ones who brought ground fighting to the U.S.

BJJ isn't "overrated" and it didn't die out, EVERYONE learned it, so everyone (who trains) has the ability to defend it.


You probably faced someone with no combat experience. Obviously you won, because he was a novice.


It's over-rated in my view because the success rate for BJJ moves is poor. Probably 75% of the time that a sub is attempted in an mma fight, it fails.

In real world combat, the failure rate would be even higher because the person defending the sub would have more options available to him, like eye gouging.

So because he didn't know how to get out of an armbar, he was a "novice" street fighter?

You're just creating a big logical fallacy here...you're inventing these guys who have high levels of combat experience, but don't train martial arts. So, do they just get in bar brawls every weekend?

And again, subs fail in MMA fights, because MMA fighters train submission defense; this should not be hard to grasp.

Honest question, have you ever trained in a combat sport? And have you ever been in a "real fight"? On what are you basing all this knowledge that you back up your opinion with?

QB_Killa
05-25-2010, 02:48 PM
I fixed most of your spelling and grammar for you, couldn't decipher what part of that said so I left it alone.

Anyway the thing about fighters is that we could care less what some roided up meat-head that has never stepped foot on the mat has to say about us. If you don't conclusively know something to be a fact then don't spew your idiocy in a public place.

you didn't fix my grammar you changed the correct spelling of a couple of words to your bastardised American version of the English language.

Firstly most of the guys here are very knowledgeable on mma, a lot train, some fight and all are very humble (except yesthatguy but he took his first fight with like a weeks worth of training and won so it's cool) so please take your condescending attitude back to sherdog. Secondly just becuase I'm not a skinny punk who only got into mma because I was bullied at school does not make me a roided up meathead. I'm only 200lbs with low bodyfat so by your definition every lhw fighter would be a roided up meathead.

fyi I never said anything about any fighters please go back and show me where I said anything of the sort, I pointed out Sherdog's forums have become a joke which is why so many real fighters refuse to go there.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 02:50 PM
Apparently everyone who posts on this site is a juiced up meathead, and everyone who posts on Sherdog is a fighter. Interesting.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:09 PM
So because he didn't know how to get out of an armbar, he was a "novice" street fighter?

Actually, it's probably because he doesn't engage in any type of combat situation on a periodic basis, whereas you do, even though you do it "by the rules".

The psychological edge by itself is a big advantage.


You're just creating a big logical fallacy here...you're inventing these guys who have high levels of combat experience, but don't train martial arts. So, do they just get in bar brawls every weekend?

You're right, I'm inventing them because they don't exist in the real world.

And the reason they don't exist in the real world is because you can't turn combat into a legitimate sport.

And the reason you can't turn combat into a legitimate sport is that, in real fights, someone either gets killed or maimed.

Which is exactly what I wrote earlier, isn't it?

I'll be registering on Sherdog forums in order to defend myself there.



And again, subs fail in MMA fights, because MMA fighters train submission defense; this should not be hard to grasp.

Honest question, have you ever trained in a combat sport? And have you ever been in a "real fight"? On what are you basing all this knowledge that you back up your opinion with?

I've never seriously trained in a combat sport, have been in fights as a kid.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:12 PM
At first glance that would seem true, however do you know why only 75%(A guessed number at best) of submission work in M.M.A.? It's because those fighters drill how to get out of them for hours upon hours. As well as the fact that all those techniques are applied with control so as not to injure the opponent. If I were in a street fight with no rules and put someone in an arm-bar, sure they could bite a chunk out of my leg, but then I would just tear their arm off.

Maybe. All that can be said for sure is that a lot of stuff could potentially happen in street fights (1on1, mind you) that doesn't go on in MMA. That's the point I was making, that's why I called mma combat ballet in the first place.

Everyone on the Sherdog thread completely misrepresented my position. I never once claimed that BB'ers were more able fighters than mma pro's.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 03:13 PM
Actually, it's probably because he doesn't engage in combat situations on a regular basis, whereas you do.

The psychological edge by itself is a big advantage.



You're right, I'm inventing them because they don't exist in the real world.

And the reason they don't exist in the real world is because you can't turn combat into a legitimate sport.

And the reason you can't turn combat into a legitimate sport is that, in real fights, someone either gets killed or maimed.

Which is exactly what I wrote earlier, isn't it?

I'll be registering on Sherdog forums in order to defend myself there.



I've never seriously trained in a combat sport, have been in fights as a kid.

I agreed that they are different animals, but you also said that:

"In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day. "

What exactly are you basing that on? Because now, at this point in the argument, you're talking about people who fight dirty and have "combat experience." What happened to strength beating technique? And why don't MMA fighters have power and physics on their side, being that they can throw strikes with correct technique?

For the record, I've been witness to many "real" fights and no one has ever died, even gotten what I would consider maimed. People get killed and maimed in prolonged beatings, consisting of more than two people. A street fight is a couple untrained guys throwing big punches, and maybe one of them landing before they both get tired, then some rolling around on the ground with little idea what they are doing, and not doing much damage.

Stuff like eye gouges and biting just doesn't happen as much as people pretend it does.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:17 PM
I agreed that they are different animals, but you also said that:

"In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day. "

What exactly are you basing that on? Because now you're talking about people who fight dirty and have "combat experience." What happened to strength beating technique?

Right, I did say that. My reasoning for it is this:

Part of what allows technique to flourish in controlled combat situations (i.e. combat sports) is the fact that many "brute strength" techniques are disallowed. The rules clearly favor the application of technique rather than strength because that's how people "want" to see fights take place.

So if you remove those rules, anyone relying on brute force automatically gets an advantage in odds. Whether that would be enough to overcome the skill of his opponent would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

For example, all anyone has to do in real life if they massively outweigh their opponent is to lie on top of them in a bearhug until they basically suffocate them.

But in MMA that wouldn't work because the fighters would get separated. So you see scenarios in MMA that would rarely happen in real life, like a big slow guy trying to strike with a small nimble guy. Of course, that changes the game, because now the big guy has to worry about gassing and the small guy has a real shot at winning because of that.

QB_Killa
05-25-2010, 03:18 PM
I agreed that they are different animals, but you also said that:

"In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day. "

What exactly are you basing that on? Because now you're talking about people who fight dirty and have "combat experience." What happened to strength beating technique?

For the record, I've been witness to many "real" fights and no one has ever died, even gotten what I would consider maimed. People get killed and maimed in prolonged beatings, consisting of more than two people. A street fight is a couple untrained guys throwing big punches, and maybe one of them landing before they both get tired, then some rolling around on the ground with little idea what they are doing, and not doing much damage.

Stuff like eye gouges and biting just doesn't happen as much as people pretend it does.

good point, I've seen quite a few real world fights as well and it's unusual for someone to get seriously hurt.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:24 PM
good point, I've seen quite a few real world fights as well and it's unusual for someone to get seriously hurt.

That's right, because there are usually other people around who stop the fight once a certain amount of damage has been done to one or both fighters.

QB_Killa
05-25-2010, 03:26 PM
That's right, because there are usually other people around who stop the fight once a certain amount of damage has been done to one or both fighters.

that and the vast majority of people know when enough is enough.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 03:26 PM
Right, I did say that. My reasoning for it is this:

Part of what allows technique to flourish in controlled combat situations (i.e. combat sports) is the fact that many "brute strength" techniques are disallowed. The rules clearly favor the application of technique rather than strength because that's how people "want" to see fights take place.

So if you remove those rules, anyone relying on brute force automatically gets an advantage in odds. Whether that would be enough to overcome the skill of his opponent would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

What, specifically, are these "brute strength" techniques you are referring to?

If you honestly think that MMA somehow disallows people to use their physical advantages, you really need to check it out a little more closely. There are plenty of fighters who rely on nothing more than power and aggression, and eventually, despite being allowed to use those to their fullest extent, are beaten by people with the skill to shut them down.

I mean, you're making points that come from a place of logic, but it's as though you've written this all down on paper without actually watching fights...

In any case, I'll direct you back to UFC 1-4, where virtually everything was allowed, and a 175 pound guy with a lot of SKILL, defeated a bunch of big, heavy, powerful brawlers, many of whom certainly had done some "real" fighting.


For example, all anyone has to do in real life if they massively outweigh their opponent is to lie on top of them in a bearhug until they basically suffocate them.

This just got added so I'll address it. The guy who massively outweighs his opponent has to CATCH him first, will almost certainly gas first, and then becomes a punching bag. Watch Yarborough/Takase.

And wouldn't simply lying on top of someone open the big man up to all sorts of nasty "illegal" attacks?

fupa2
05-25-2010, 03:28 PM
this was entertaining

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:30 PM
What, specifically, are these "brute strength" techniques you are referring to?

If you honestly think that MMA somehow disallows people to use their physical advantages, you really need to check it out a little more closely. There are plenty of fighters who rely on nothing more than power and aggression, and eventually, despite being allowed to use those to their fullest extent, are beaten by people with the skill to shut them down.

I mean, you're making points that come from a place of logic, but it's as though you've written this all down on paper without actually watching fights...

In any case, I'll direct you back to UFC 1-4, where virtually everything was allowed, and a 175 pound guy with a lot of SKILL, defeated a bunch of big, heavy, powerful brawlers, many of whom certainly had done some "real" fighting.

This just got added so I'll address it. The guy who massively outweighs his opponent has to CATCH him first, will almost certainly gas first, and then becomes a punching bag. Watch Yarborough/Takase.

In practically every mma fight I see, the fighers get separated by the ref at least once.

They also get yelled at for striking to the back of the head and for grabbing the fence. I think stuff like that kills the realism bigtime.

The current mma ruleset basically forces fighters to grapple their way out of a clinch. Again, because that's what the promoters want to see. But in real life, maybe grappling isn't always the best way. Well, too bad if you're in mma. You don't have a choice.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 03:33 PM
In practically every mma fight I see, the fighers get separated by the ref at least once.

They also get yelled at for striking to the back of the head and for grabbing the fence. I think stuff like that kills the realism bigtime.

The current mma ruleset basically forces fighters to grapple their way out of a clinch. Again, because that's what the promoters want to see. But in real life, maybe grappling isn't always the best way. Well, too bad if you're in mma. You don't have a choice.

How else do you get out of a clinch? Grab a rock?

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:34 PM
What, specifically, are these "brute strength" techniques you are referring to?

If you honestly think that MMA somehow disallows people to use their physical advantages, you really need to check it out a little more closely. There are plenty of fighters who rely on nothing more than power and aggression, and eventually, despite being allowed to use those to their fullest extent, are beaten by people with the skill to shut them down.

I mean, you're making points that come from a place of logic, but it's as though you've written this all down on paper without actually watching fights...

In any case, I'll direct you back to UFC 1-4, where virtually everything was allowed, and a 175 pound guy with a lot of SKILL, defeated a bunch of big, heavy, powerful brawlers, many of whom certainly had done some "real" fighting.

This just got added so I'll address it. The guy who massively outweighs his opponent has to CATCH him first, will almost certainly gas first, and then becomes a punching bag. Watch Yarborough/Takase.

In practically every mma fight I see, the fighters get stood up and separated by the ref at least once.

They also get yelled at for striking to the back of the head and for grabbing the fence. If they don't want people grabbing the fence then they shouldn't put a fence there. Have them fight inside a boxing ring or even a big wrestling circle with no side guards. I think stuff like that kills the realism bigtime.

You can even argue that separating the fight into rounds diminishes the realism.

If a fighter is losing and he sees there are only 30 seconds left in the round, he can take it easy and play defense while running the clock. So that introduces a strategy that would never exist in the real world. On the flip side, it's completely unrealistic to stop a fight when a fighter is dominating his opponent and about to finish.

"Saved by the bell."

You'll only see that in mma. Never in a real fight.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 03:39 PM
In practically every mma fight I see, the fighters get stood up and separated by the ref at least once.

They also get yelled at for striking to the back of the head and for grabbing the fence. If they don't want people grabbing the fence then they shouldn't put a fence there. Have them fight inside a boxing ring or even a big wrestling circle with no side guards. I think stuff like that kills the realism bigtime.

You can even argue that separating the fight into rounds diminishes the realism.

If a fighter is losing and he sees there are only 30 seconds left in the round, he can take it easy and play defense while running the clock. So that introduces a strategy that would never exist in the real world. On the flip side, it's completely unrealistic to stop a fight when a fighter is dominating his opponent and about to finish.

"Saved by the bell."

You'll only see that in mma. Never in a real fight.

You continue to presume that MMA fighters will follow these strategies in a real fight. Do you honestly think a guy is going to "ride out the clock" in a real fight, just because he knows he can do it in the ring?

pondus_levo
05-25-2010, 03:40 PM
After training, weight lifting , training, weight lifting, I have realized how important technique and training really is. WOW, It really is unreal and how the "general" bodybuilder has no idea how much they are outclassed. This doesn't have anything to do with the latest Tim SIlvia fight, just my own observation after returning to train. I believe I will never again train like a bodybuilder and stick strickly to martial arts.

I have seen the light brotha's

You mean you have to train martial arts to be good at martial arts? Who woulda thunkit!? ;)

(yes sarcasm)

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 03:44 PM
You continue to presume that MMA fighters will follow these strategies in a real fight. Do you honestly think a guy is going to "ride out the clock" in a real fight, just because he knows he can do it in the ring?

I'm not presuming anything. I'm saying that what you see on TV or at the mma gym is not representative of real combat situations.

By the way, I'd structure the rules differently if I were running the show.

First, never end the round when the fighters are still engaged. You always let them finish the current "play," no matter how long it takes. If and when they break, then you blow the whistle, but never before. And no clock, so they can't look up and check the time. It would be illegal for a coach or anyone on the sidelines to inform the figher how much time was left.

Second, increase the rest times between breaks. Make it at least 5 minutes. This way the fighters get a real rest and fights that go past the 1st round wouldn't turn into crapfests with two gassed-out guys throwing wild swings and collapsing on each other.

Rules suck but even where the rules are concerned, mma could be a lot better than it is now.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm not presuming anything. I'm saying that what you see on TV or at the mma gym is not representative of real combat situations.

By the way, I'd structure the rules differently if I were running the show.

First, never end the round when the fighters are still engaged. You always let them finish the current "play," no matter how long it takes. If and when they break, then you blow the whistle, but never before. And no clock, so they can't look up and check the time. It would be illegal for a coach or anyone on the sidelines to inform the figher how much time was left.

Second, increase the rest times between breaks. Make it at least 5 minutes. This way the fighters get a real rest and fights that go past the 1st round wouldn't turn into crapfests with two gassed-out guys throwing wild swings and collapsing on each other.

Rules suck but even where the rules are concerned, mma could be a lot better than it is now.

So, it's not realistic enough, but you want to give guys a five minute rest period?

"Two gassed-out guys throwing wild swings and collapsing on each other" is VERY representative of real combat situations. You're shifting topics again.

King Baer
05-25-2010, 03:57 PM
I'm not presuming anything. I'm saying that what you see on TV or at the mma gym is not representative of real combat situations.

By the way, I'd structure the rules differently if I were running the show.

First, never end the round when the fighters are still engaged. You always let them finish the current "play," no matter how long it takes. If and when they break, then you blow the whistle, but never before. And no clock, so they can't look up and check the time. It would be illegal for a coach or anyone on the sidelines to inform the figher how much time was left.

Second, increase the rest times between breaks. Make it at least 5 minutes. This way the fighters get a real rest and fights that go past the 1st round wouldn't turn into crapfests with two gassed-out guys throwing wild swings and collapsing on each other.

Rules suck but even where the rules are concerned, mma could be a lot better than it is now.

Dude your points get more and more stupid.

However, I keep coming back for more lolz.

parkerbro1
05-25-2010, 04:05 PM
Come on guys he's trollin.

I know this...but just can't help myself.


Your skills probably won't transfer to different games because they are highly specialized.

Wrong.
You're saying speed, accuracy, power, and destructive technique won't work in a street fight?
Just because the targets differ in the competition, doesn't mean folk are dumb enough to only use these abilities to hit "safe" targets in a street situation. Granted, some guys can't/won't because they've only ever trained to the "safe" targets. But if you think all the skills they've developed in their sport don't translate to street or reality based combatives...go pick a fight ;)

If you've memorized the places you're not supposed to hit/kick/break thoroughly, why wouldn't you now have the perfect go to list in a "real" fight? Trust me when I say, that I'm not the only or even first guy to think about this.


How does it make it EASIER when you don't have a ref who will stop the fight when your opponent grabs your shorts, keeps you on the ground for too long, or makes some other "illegal move"? Even if mma were more difficult then real fighting, it still wouldn't be real fighting.

Easier because humans are breakable when you are allowed to attack certain spots that can't be "armored" up. I'll put out there that because mma/sport combatives have rules designed to basically protect a human, and make them harder to beat, it's basically a harder thing to do. If you can train to take someone out through harder to hit areas, more protected areas...why would it be so hard to do that to the more vulnerable spots, even easier and faster? Plus, any fighting is "real" fighting, homie. If you disagree then define real fighting. What makes any fighting "real"? Fighting for your life? So the dudes that are literally fighting to feed their kids and family aren't fighting for their life? What's real, dude?



Martial arts are pretty much a form of ballet which originated in Asian countries, so to call mma "combat ballet" really isn't far off the mark.

Lol, as far as I know only Wushu was developed as a balletic or entertainment style martial art. Most others were developed to deal with deadly threats opposite them at the time of their origin. The art aspect came from the ignorance of folk that watched their displays of technique and the somewhat mystical way they seemed to take their enemies out. The sport aspect came from practitioners that needed a way to keep doing what they were doing but with out killing their opponents.


Bro, whether you're a troll or not, the stuff you write is just full of ignorance...which is a shame, because you do have some obvious knowledge.
And just so you know, I have a San Soo, Escrima, Silat background before I moved back to sport style combatives. I was a Cooler and bodyguard for years in LA when I was younger.
I've trained in both styles of combatives. I know for a fact that there are traditional and reality based fighters/masters that could give almost any mma fighter a run for his money, just as I know that there are many mma fighters that would clean up in a street fight.
It's never as cut and dry as you're trying to make it seem.
Never.

parkerbro1
05-25-2010, 04:14 PM
Because they were the ones who brought ground fighting to the U.S.

BJJ isn't "overrated" and it didn't die out, EVERYONE learned it, so everyone (who trains) has the ability to defend it.

And again, subs fail in MMA fights, because MMA fighters train submission defense; this should not be hard to grasp.



I'll add that to be up on your street defense, you better be training in BJJ, wrestling, or any ground fighting. Real simple: since there are soo many BJJ schools now...what are the chances that if you get into a street altercation, it'll be with a BJJ practitioner? Fairly high, based on popularity (whether you like it or not) of the style.
Whether you agree or not that the style has street merit (and I don't actually, except for basic defense from takedowns and being able to get back to the feet and full mobility), doesn't matter. You still need to be fully aware of what it is and does to defend against it.
Just like law enforcement trains for weapon retention and how to deal with what the majority of perps carry now a days (weapons, potential harmful paraphernalia and body fluids, etc.) , street combative practitioners would be ignorant to not train on something they might have to deal with in a fight.

Shogun893
05-25-2010, 04:49 PM
was trying to keep things simple but if you want to get technical Mitsuyo Maeda taught Carlos and Carlos taught his brothers.

Yes sir, I was just throwing that in.

Al Shades
05-25-2010, 05:31 PM
So, it's not realistic enough, but you want to give guys a five minute rest period?

"Two gassed-out guys throwing wild swings and collapsing on each other" is VERY representative of real combat situations. You're shifting topics again.

No kidding I'm shifting topics. I was done with the last topic, so I brought up a new one.

If you're going to stop a fight at all, might as well let the fighters rest properly. That's how I'd do it if I ran mma. Has no bearing on what I said about mma vs real fights.

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 06:12 PM
No kidding I'm shifting topics. I was done with the last topic, so I brought up a new one.

If you're going to stop a fight at all, might as well let the fighters rest properly. That's how I'd do it if I ran mma. Has no bearing on what I said about mma vs real fights.

You're done, because you couldn't really back up what you're saying with anything logical, so you moved the discussion to another arena. You're far too evasive to enjoy debating with...

someonefat
05-25-2010, 07:25 PM
I'll add that to be up on your street defense, you better be training in BJJ, wrestling, or any ground fighting. Real simple: since there are soo many BJJ schools now...what are the chances that if you get into a street altercation, it'll be with a BJJ practitioner? Fairly high, based on popularity (whether you like it or not) of the style.
Whether you agree or not that the style has street merit (and I don't actually, except for basic defense from takedowns and being able to get back to the feet and full mobility), doesn't matter. You still need to be fully aware of what it is and does to defend against it.
Just like law enforcement trains for weapon retention and how to deal with what the majority of perps carry now a days (weapons, potential harmful paraphernalia and body fluids, etc.) , street combative practitioners would be ignorant to not train on something they might have to deal with in a fight.

I'd never expect anyone who trains to pick fights, guys seen start fights are drunks at bars who have no clue how to fight other then throw wild punches.

All the guys I train with are some of the nicest most respectful people I know. I think training makes people more humble and respectful.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 07:56 PM
you didn't fix my grammar you changed the correct spelling of a couple of words to your bastardised American version of the English language.

Firstly most of the guys here are very knowledgeable on mma, a lot train, some fight and all are very humble (except yesthatguy but he took his first fight with like a weeks worth of training and won so it's cool) so please take your condescending attitude back to sherdog. Secondly just becuase I'm not a skinny punk who only got into mma because I was bullied at school does not make me a roided up meathead. I'm only 200lbs with low bodyfat so by your definition every lhw fighter would be a roided up meathead.

fyi I never said anything about any fighters please go back and show me where I said anything of the sort, I pointed out Sherdog's forums have become a joke which is why so many real fighters refuse to go there.

I would tell you all the reasons your a hypocrite and talk more about the spelling thing but this thread is to good to jack with a flame war.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 08:09 PM
Yes sir, I was just throwing that in. No big deal dude, I should have said the correct thing from the beginning, better to educate people than do it the easy way after all.


Apparently everyone who posts on this site is a juiced up meathead, and everyone who posts on Sherdog is a fighter. Interesting. That's not what I said.



Part of what allows technique to flourish in controlled combat situations (i.e. combat sports) is the fact that many "brute strength" techniques are disallowed.
.
Why don't you go ahead and name two "Brute strength" techniques that are against the U.F.C. rules?

HardGainer82
05-25-2010, 08:14 PM
That's not what I said.


Never said you did. That's just the impression I get from that Sherdog thread.

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 08:17 PM
We have wrestled and used submission style wrestling for centuries. We as humans are more suited for grappling then striking, look at how like monkeys fight they grapple. Grappling is the oldest form of combat been around forever.

ok, but jujitsu hasn't. also it looks like that guy on top is about to start pounding the crap out of the back of the other guys head lol

FREAK656
05-25-2010, 08:23 PM
Never said you did. That's just the impression I get from that Sherdog thread.

Yeah and everyone on this site is a pro lifter and everyone on sherdog is a pansy. both sites are going to be biased towards their respective side, it sucks but its a fact of life. Also good job on your posts in this thread(not sarcasm)

neekz0r
05-25-2010, 08:51 PM
It's over-rated in my view because the success rate for BJJ moves is poor. Probably 75% of the time that a sub is attempted in an mma fight, it fails.


.... err.. so what's the success-rate of 'knock out' punches, then (compared to how many punches are thrown)? And anyway, submissions aren't really what BJJ is about... thinking that is displaying some ignorance on your part.

In BJJ, we have a saying: "Position before submission". At it's root, BJJ is more about positioning yourself so that you can strike better and potentially go for a submission. That's why in sport BJJ, getting back with hooks/mount has more points then being in guard or cross-sides -- even though guard has (arguably) more submissions.



In real world combat, the failure rate would be even higher because the person defending the sub would have more options available to him, like eye gouging.

What, so just because I train BJJ, I can't eye gouge or fish-hook? Are you for serious? If there are no rules, it applies to BOTH parties, not just the one who doesn't train.

Also, why are you even talking like you know what you are talking about when you admittedly haven't done any fighting since you were a kid? Other then to troll, I mean.

VDubb
05-25-2010, 09:26 PM
Clearly, you've all forgotten about the deadly event known as the Kumite.

http://www.vandamme.ru/animations/Bloodsport2.gif

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5849/11427237096420ui.gif





http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/EmceeBigLMVP/ortiz.gif

PsychoticTroll
05-26-2010, 05:25 AM
OP is completely correct, pro street fighters would kill all ballet loving mma ***gots. The post you are about to read will undoubtedly prove this without a doubt, doubt.

I present the following examples of pro street fighters:

http://stationaryorbit.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/bruce-lee.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/SeanKohnke/ken.jpg
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7364/streetkimbo.jpg

Also let us not forget about the guys who train in the mountains, "forest fighters" (Not guys who beat on Forest Griffen).

http://www.asianmoviepulse.com/wp-content/uploads/jackie_chan_01.jpg
http://images2.ggl.com/images/akuma3.jpg
(^Has been caught moon lighting as a street fighter!)
http://animezone.webcontenido.com/fotos-imagenes-anime/goku-picture-ssj2.jpg

I haven't read this thread but I feel the following may have already been mentioned so I will provide thread cliff notes for those of you who are too stupid to keep up:

Cliffs:
MMA don't work in the streets
MMA rules aren't fighting
Bruce Lee
Eye gouges
Lava Needles (?)
BJJ doesn't work
Friends will stomp you if you go to the ground
Street Fighters

You MMA fools need to wake up and listen to Al Shades. This dude has seen EVERYTHING when it comes to combat. He's fought countless opponents. I can tell by the way he writes like he doesn't know anything about fighting. He's trying to get into your head so he can **** you up when you least expect it. DONT BE FOOLED. This guy knows his sh!t.

Thank you for reading. Please do not make me reiterate my point by making me post more about eye gouging and pictures of Bruce Lee beating up bits of dry wood. Train safe, and remember to kill/maim and cripple all of your opponents!

bluebeltATT
05-26-2010, 06:50 AM
lol @ this guy Al Green...


he obviously has never trained....

kinda reminds me of this conversation

X_sd1nMkdco


you guize remember this dontcha?

Wanderlei
05-26-2010, 09:35 AM
I don't know if anyone will agree with this...

Trained and in-training MMA fighters typically will not say that their techniques work well in a street fight. Nor will they try and get into a street fight - although the training we do does make us better street fighters. I have made this observation from my trainer, my friends, and my own feelings toward the matter after I started training for MMA and not for street. The major difference in an MMA fighter and a true martial artist is that a martial artist is continuously learning, and may know 2000 techniques from one position; where as an MMA fighter will know 4-5 techniques from a position but know them like their back of their hand and will be ready to use them (hopefully) when the oppurtunity arises in the ring. There are variations of martial arts that are oftened trained in MMA that apply extremely well for street. Such as JKD, Muay Thai, Krav Maga, anything from the Philippines; even Street BJJ is particularily ruthless and the noises you can make your opponent scream or make via bones cracking are quite disturbing.

Also in regards to street fighting- Royce Gracie once said "A black belt only covers 2 inches of your ass." and we all know how many black belts it takes to stop a bullet.

As a person, to be able to perform more functionally and be more healthy than others, martial arts gives you increased reflexes, muscle control, muscle stability, flexion, flexability, a sense of tranquility etc. the list goes on.

Bodybuilding v MMA? Its apples and oranges, why bother arguing?
I never saw bodybuilders as athletes to begin with to tell you the honest truth, but after my mate won Mr. Australia and placed 7th at Mr.Olympia, and I saw what he went through, i reguard them as athletes now for sure.

But MMA v the average joe that's on these forums and saying Bodybuilding is better than training for MMA... how the **** would you know?

MUFC
05-26-2010, 09:50 AM
Can people avoid saying "helio created jiu jitsu"?

A) Some Japanese dude did.
B) Helio's contributions were important, but Rolls Gracie is largely responsible for the rise of BJJ as a grappling system. Without his cross training, the art would probably have failed.

Wanderlei
05-26-2010, 09:57 AM
Everyone says "The Gracies did it".

Jiu Jitsu - One (if not the only) martial art that is continuously evolving in the world today.

Seriously if you thought hard enough you could come up with some new move, lock, hold, sweep or submission tomorrow.

someonefat
05-26-2010, 01:12 PM
Everyone says "The Gracies did it".

Jiu Jitsu - One (if not the only) martial art that is continuously evolving in the world today.

Seriously if you thought hard enough you could come up with some new move, lock, hold, sweep or submission tomorrow.

good point like said we been grappling for centuries and its constantly been evolving. I give gracies props for expanding it and popularizing it in America starting up tons of different gyms winning ufc1 to show importance of grappling ext. They definitely deserve respect for what they did but some people forget that grappling is a very old form of combat thats just been evolving for a long time the gracies did not invent grappling.

brake
05-26-2010, 07:46 PM
Technique matters a lot in MMA because MMA isn't real fighting, it's "combat ballet" played according to a pre-defined set of rules that is known by both opponents (be sure to -rep me for this).

In real fights in the real world, technique falls flat and strength, power and physics usually win the day.


Real fights don't have rules. They don't have refs. They don't have cages. Many of the things that mma fighters do in the ring would get them killed in short order in real life. All the "guards" for example would useless. Real fights end when someone gets killed or crippled.

Combat ballet is probably the best term to describe what happens when you water down fighting with all sorts of rules and regulations that don't exist in the real world.

everything you said becomes irrelavent with the fact that just because you train MMA doesnt mean you cant use "street" techniques (eye gouges, dick kicks etc) in a street fight aswell, lol. This guy.

Z-Chaos-Factor
05-29-2010, 04:37 AM
Watch the video enough said

Al Shades
06-01-2010, 12:44 AM
You're done, because you couldn't really back up what you're saying with anything logical, so you moved the discussion to another arena. You're far too evasive to enjoy debating with...

I'm not done with anything and I didn't "move the discussion to another arena" in order to avoid responding to you on the original subject.

What happened, and I'm amazed that you don't recognize this, is that a perfectly natural evolution of the discussion took place.

There is no reason why the discussion has to stay static for many pages; it can evolve, and in this case it did.

We went from discussing the differences between the MMA ruleset and actual combat to theorizing about a more ideal and realistic ruleset that could be created for MMA.

That is NOT an off-topic conversation, it is HIGHLY related to the original topic and only a complete buffoon would try to paint it as a red herring. Since you've made such accusations, I now return to the original topic of discussion to reprise my arguments there:

I am not the LEAST bit evasive. Time and again, I've responded to exactly what you and others wrote, addressing your points in detail. I'm probably the least evasive person who has ever posted on BB.com. I know of no other individual who takes the time to quote their opponents' post and respond to them in detail.

Al Shades
06-01-2010, 12:52 AM
everything you said becomes irrelavent with the fact that just because you train MMA doesnt mean you cant use "street" techniques (eye gouges, dick kicks etc) in a street fight aswell, lol. This guy.

Wrong.

Once again, you and everyone else who adopts this mentality is assuming a hypothetical situation in which a trained mma fighter goes up against someone with no combat experience, structured or otherwise, in a no-holds-barred fight.

Erase that picture because that is NOT the type of scenario I'm referring to when I make my claims about MMA.

My argument is extremely simple. So simple that most of you have brushed right over it in your haste to attribute things to me which I never said.

Here we go again:

Fact #1:
MMA fighters, like all athletes who compete in combat sports and all athletes in general, from ping-pong players to NFL linemen, train for the particular ruleset of their sport.

Fact #2:
For the reasons stated earlier in the thread, the particular ruleset used in MMA does not accurately (100%) replicate a true, real-life combat situation. The same is true of the ruleset used in every combat sport ever devised, from karate in 800 B.C. China to UFC today. The reason for this is simple and has also been stated previously: In real combat, people get seriously F'ed up. Can't have that in a pro sport, so you need to create rules which fundamentally change the game.

Conclusion:
A person who deliberately trains in a "ruleset" that is specifically designed to mimic and address all of the potential scenarios that might arise in a true combat situation and NOT to exclude ANYTHING from their training, as "combat athletes" do, will have the upper hand over said combat athletes in a bout where nothing is deemed illegal.

So, to return to your example, of course a seasoned MMA fighter can probably defend or initiate a groin shot against someone who has no combat experience at all. But what about someone who specifically trains for groin attacks on a daily basis? There is absolutely no reason to believe that an mma fighter would have any advantage there, because those tactics would NOT fall within the ruleset of his sport and he would not be adequately prepared to counter them against a person who deliberately trains to use them.

It's so simple, it's obvious.
Get it now? Game over.

Wanderlei
06-01-2010, 01:04 AM
Wrong.

Once again, you and everyone else who adopts this mentality is assuming a hypothetical situation in which a trained mma fighter goes up against someone with no combat experience, structured or otherwise, in a no-holds-barred scenario.

Erase that picture because that is NOT the type of scenario I'm referring to when I make my claims about MMA.

My argument is extremely simple. So simple that most of you have brushed right over it in your haste to attribute things to me which I never said.

Here we go again:

Fact #1:
MMA fighters, like all athletes who compete in combat sports and all athletes in general, from ping-pong players to NFL linemen, train for the particular ruleset of their sport.

Fact #2:
For the reasons stated earlier in the thread, the particular ruleset used in MMA does not accurately (100%) replicate a true, real-life combat situation. The same is true of the ruleset used in every combat sport ever devised, from karate in 800 B.C. China to UFC today. The reason for this is simple and has also been stated previously: In real combat, people get seriously F'ed up. Can't have that in a pro sport, so you need to create rules which fundamentally change the game.

Conclusion:
A person who deliberately trains in a "ruleset" that is specifically designed to mimic and address all of the potential scenarios that might arise in a true combat situation and NOT to exclude ANYTHING from their training, as "combat athletes" do, will have the upper hand over said combat athletes in a bout where nothing is deemed illegal.

So, to return to your example, of course a seasoned MMA fighter can probably defend or initiate a groin shot against someone who has no combat experience at all. But what about someone who specifically trains for groin attacks on a daily basis? There is absolutely no reason to believe that an mma fighter would have any advantage there, because those tactics would NOT fall within the ruleset of his sport and he would not be adequately prepared to counter them against a person who deliberately trains to use them.

It's so simple, it's obvious.
Get it now? Game over.

If you read your own posts early on. You will realise you gave ground to all of us shutting you down immediately.

Of course in the above circumstance that is true. You have made it so specific its hard to fault. But the "someone" factor can be anything.

You are basically saying Bruce Lee v Any MMA fighter in a street fight would win. And I would agree. Someone that trains for street in JKD, Krav, Silat, etc, strikes for the groin, goes for the eye gouge etc. They don't load up the big right hand or the soccer kick like 99.9% of "bar/pub brawling delinquents" out there. They end a fight in 2 seconds, and run away.

In most cases, your Bruce Lee does not exist. Therefore MMA fighter would win in a street fight over the average "street fighter".

To me your argument is just one big "what if" and I think if you look into it more often than not an MMA figther would have won a street fight in 90 percent of recorded circumstances anyway.

Al Shades
06-01-2010, 01:12 AM
If you read your own posts early on. You will realise you gave ground to all of us shutting you down immediately.

I don't think so.

I think I knew exactly what I was getting at from the beginning.

What's far more likely is that many people here took a cursory glance at my posts early on and immediately leaped to conclusions about my ideas based on threads they had seen in the past.

This clearly happened. For example on Sherdog everyone seemed to think that I was rehashing the old, "Bodybuilders/big guys vs martial artists in a fight" argument and that I was proclaiming the superiority of bodybuilders to mma fighters.

Don't you find it more likely that other people, with their short attention span, would misinterpret my posts than that I would change my argument?

neekz0r
06-01-2010, 10:31 AM
I don't think so.

I think I knew exactly what I was getting at from the beginning.

What's far more likely is that many people here took a cursory glance at my posts early on and immediately leaped to conclusions about my ideas based on threads they had seen in the past.

This clearly happened. For example on Sherdog everyone seemed to think that I was rehashing the old, "Bodybuilders/big guys vs martial artists in a fight" argument and that I was proclaiming the superiority of bodybuilders to mma fighters.

Don't you find it more likely that other people, with their short attention span, would misinterpret my posts than that I would change my argument?

No one misinterpreted anything. "Training" for street fighting doesn't happen. Even things like Krav Maga only come close. Why? Because if you were to train against an actual resisting/countering opponent, you'd only be able to train once a month if you are lucky. Over the course of a year, your injuries would be so numerous you'd have to throw in the towel. Your hypothetical street-fighter-trained person is an impossibility. Your argument is effectively: "Superman would totally kick any MMA fighters ass!" Well, no **** Sherlock.


Again, I ask you, why are you talking like you know what you are talking about when you've admittedly never trained any combat sports and the only fight you've been in was when you were a kid, other then to troll?

Gaash
06-01-2010, 10:46 AM
I actually think the man brings up some good points.

Reminds me of the epic Bruce Lee > GSP (in a streetfight) because thats what lee trained for.

But then a lot of what he is saying is way over exaggerated.. ie 1v1 if ur good at BJJ and other guy is just a street brawler then you on your back on the ground with him in your guard is very advantageous

If the guy is untrained you will not be on your back, you will be on top after taking them down with ease and they will be even more fuked than if u had them in your guard.

HardGainer82
06-01-2010, 11:10 AM
Wrong.

Once again, you and everyone else who adopts this mentality is assuming a hypothetical situation in which a trained mma fighter goes up against someone with no combat experience, structured or otherwise, in a no-holds-barred fight.

Erase that picture because that is NOT the type of scenario I'm referring to when I make my claims about MMA.

My argument is extremely simple. So simple that most of you have brushed right over it in your haste to attribute things to me which I never said.

Here we go again:

Fact #1:
MMA fighters, like all athletes who compete in combat sports and all athletes in general, from ping-pong players to NFL linemen, train for the particular ruleset of their sport.

Fact #2:
For the reasons stated earlier in the thread, the particular ruleset used in MMA does not accurately (100%) replicate a true, real-life combat situation. The same is true of the ruleset used in every combat sport ever devised, from karate in 800 B.C. China to UFC today. The reason for this is simple and has also been stated previously: In real combat, people get seriously F'ed up. Can't have that in a pro sport, so you need to create rules which fundamentally change the game.

Conclusion:
A person who deliberately trains in a "ruleset" that is specifically designed to mimic and address all of the potential scenarios that might arise in a true combat situation and NOT to exclude ANYTHING from their training, as "combat athletes" do, will have the upper hand over said combat athletes in a bout where nothing is deemed illegal.

So, to return to your example, of course a seasoned MMA fighter can probably defend or initiate a groin shot against someone who has no combat experience at all. But what about someone who specifically trains for groin attacks on a daily basis? There is absolutely no reason to believe that an mma fighter would have any advantage there, because those tactics would NOT fall within the ruleset of his sport and he would not be adequately prepared to counter them against a person who deliberately trains to use them.

It's so simple, it's obvious.
Get it now? Game over.

You spent half a page bashing people for creating hypothetical scenarios, when you've admitted that the type of fighter (trained street fighter) you're discussing at length doesn't exist in reality.

In "real combat" it's almost a certainty that the trained martial artists will hold the advantage over people who don't have a background/training, except perhaps for a very small, exclusive subset of people that don't exist in the real world. If you really want someone to concede that point, I'll be happy to, but it's highly semantic and a little silly.

parkerbro1
06-03-2010, 11:54 PM
I'd never expect anyone who trains to pick fights, guys seen start fights are drunks at bars who have no clue how to fight other then throw wild punches.

All the guys I train with are some of the nicest most respectful people I know. I think training makes people more humble and respectful.

Agreed, although there are some that have used street and bar brawls as a form of "practice" (I don't agree with it, just making note of it).
It usually makes dudes more respectful IF they've been training for awhile, some newer guys can get a fairly crap attitude (big britches) and rub folk the wrong way. 9 times out've 10 though, the trained fighter is just defending themselves in a street fight, not instigating, in my experience.

PsychoticTroll
06-04-2010, 03:24 AM
Give us an example of pro street fighters. Because this is like arguing about fictional characters vs real people. Where do they train? What are their names? How do you know so much about them?

I've never seen one or heard of one. I think you're full of ****, have never fouight anyone other than a punch up in highschool, and are acting like some kind of martial arts authority when you blatently don't know ****.

I conclude.
WAOxY_nHdew

parkerbro1
06-04-2010, 05:54 PM
Give us an example of pro street fighters. Because this is like arguing about fictional characters vs real people. Where do they train? What are their names? How do you know so much about them?

I've never seen one or heard of one. I think you're full of ****, have never fouight anyone other than a punch up in highschool, and are acting like some kind of martial arts authority when you blatently don't know ****.

I conclude.
WAOxY_nHdew

I'm not sure who you're talking to since you didn't quote any body, but there are no pro street fighters, and no one said there were. There are guys like Kimbo who made a name for themselves taping their street fights (definition: anything not sanctioned and with out a set of rules to govern the action). Plus older fighters like Tank Abbot (as an example), as well as Tito Ortiz, have reputations where they live and grew up as consistently as getting a lot of "practice" on in street fights. Tank was notorious for picking fights in bars he frequented.
Any one who isn't a newb to mma has known this...it's not exactly a secret, chief.


oh and for the record: it's spelled fought. Not fouight. If you're trying to call folk out (which is fuggin stupid online) and be all witty with your video embedding skills, you might wanna spell check too. ;)

PsychoticTroll
06-05-2010, 03:55 AM
I'm not sure who you're talking to since you didn't quote any body, but there are no pro street fighters, and no one said there were. There are guys like Kimbo who made a name for themselves taping their street fights (definition: anything not sanctioned and with out a set of rules to govern the action). Plus older fighters like Tank Abbot (as an example), as well as Tito Ortiz, have reputations where they live and grew up as consistently as getting a lot of "practice" on in street fights. Tank was notorious for picking fights in bars he frequented.
Any one who isn't a newb to mma has known this...it's not exactly a secret, chief.


oh and for the record: it's spelled fought. Not fouight. If you're trying to call folk out (which is fuggin stupid online) and be all witty with your video embedding skills, you might wanna spell check too. ;)

Hey thanks for replying to my post in such a polite manner. Calling me chief and correcting my horrilbe spelling. Most people would have probably thought "Hey, this guy might have accidently hit the i button which is between the u and o keys while typing the word fought." But no not you. You saw right through that, and REALISED I can't actually spell the word fought.

I wasn't calling anyone out, I was responding to things Al Shades wrote. He has mentioned "pro street fighters" a couple of times and I was curious if he could give me an example.


Psyche, cardio, chin, and striking ability are all traits that professional fighters develop for their sports which would benefit them in any combat situation, including street fights. So I don't deny what you said there. But the comparison is skewed because you're comparing people who fight for a living (albeit in a watered down version) with people who don't. Put your pro-mma fighters vs pro street fighters in a no-holds-barred match and suddenly the equation changes.

Oh, and for the record: My spell check's in dutch, but I think I'm doing ok. Chief.

proc23
06-05-2010, 11:50 AM
You guys do realize that fights are completely random having specific training does give you and advantage but does not guarantee a victory. I didnt read the whole tread and maybe someone said this already. Every argument you can make can get refuted it is all situational.

/thread

parkerbro1
06-05-2010, 03:49 PM
Hey thanks for replying to my post in such a polite manner. Calling me chief and correcting my horrilbe spelling. Most people would have probably thought "Hey, this guy might have accidently hit the i button which is between the u and o keys while typing the word fought." But no not you. You saw right through that, and REALISED I can't actually spell the word fought.

I wasn't calling anyone out, I was responding to things Al Shades wrote. He has mentioned "pro street fighters" a couple of times and I was curious if he could give me an example.



Oh, and for the record: My spell check's in dutch, but I think I'm doing ok. Chief.

lol, if it wasn't towards me, then no stress cuz. I'll even apologize for obviously upsetting you. srs, not trying to antangonize someone that wasn't taking shots at me, BUT to be fair you might wanna quote the dude you are shooting at. If you want him to answer things you say, you gotta actually let him know, ya know?
Especially since I agree with Hardgainer and a few others (apparently you as well) about what they're saying to altrollshades.

lol and you misspelled horrible and realized (:D, no mad, just laugh now, bro).

ptotheb
06-06-2010, 01:29 AM
sherdog.net/forums/f13/josh-barnett-lifting-mma-769014/

/motherfcukn thread!!