Anyone do fasted cardio anymore?

[DanTheManB]

I'm about to do it with 4 scoops XTEND...still a bad idea? Most in the know seem to point out it's a horrible idea no matter what...

And if doing it fasted, does that mean skip a meal or just hit all meals albeit at later times?

[AustrianOakJr]

I'm about to do it with 4 scoops XTEND...still a bad idea? Most in the know seem to point out it's a horrible idea no matter what...

And if doing it fasted, does that mean skip a meal or just hit all meals albeit at later times?

Its not fasted if you're drinking xtend. Thats pretty much what I did my entire last prep. I would avoid HIIT without carbs in your system, but LISS or even a little MISS is fine with just aminos.

[God_Given]

I've been doing cardio 7 days a week first thing in the morning on an empty stomach for 2 weeks now, currently 2 weeks out from my next show.... it sucks

[dillon.nelson]

+1 on BCAA's for low intensity

[fitlover]

it sucks

Never a truer statement.


I do it "fasted" only when I'm really pressed for time, and in that case I sip aminos during the session, and eat my breakfast afterwards. Lately I've been trying to do it half and half...15-20 minutes after weights (with BCAA's of course) and 15-20 minutes in the morning.

[Flex500]

I'm about to do it with 4 scoops XTEND...still a bad idea? Most in the know seem to point out it's a horrible idea no matter what...

And if doing it fasted, does that mean skip a meal or just hit all meals albeit at later times?
every non natural bber I know still does fasted cardio..and usually fasted cardio on heavy stims are clen. I do an hour on the stair stepper...followed by a 20 minutes walk...then 20 minutes of posing...from 530am-7am-ish. I don't eat until around 8am.

almost all natural bbers I know have at least some bcaa's before/during morning cardio.

[ironjim53113]

i just did 50 minutes on the treadmill of fasted cardio. only drank a little water to take my multi for the day before hand.

[Sporto1633]

I'm about to do it with 4 scoops XTEND...still a bad idea? Most in the know seem to point out it's a horrible idea no matter what...

And if doing it fasted, does that mean skip a meal or just hit all meals albeit at later times?

It's not that it's a horrible idea, it's just not as optimal. But, if you are pressed for time, and feel that you are behind in your prep, AND you are willing to sacrifice a little extra muscle to get a little extra leaner in the last few weeks, then that would be a situation where you have to throw out "optimal" and just do whatever you have to do to get all you can get off before the show. Do the best you can with the time you have left and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Sporto

[Quelly]

It's not that it's a horrible idea, it's just not as optimal. But, if you are pressed for time, and feel that you are behind in your prep, AND you are willing to sacrifice a little extra muscle to get a little extra leaner in the last few weeks, then that would be a situation where you have to throw out "optimal" and just do whatever you have to do to get all you can get off before the show. Do the best you can with the time you have left and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Sporto

yup....I did basically lyle's sfs protocol modified with bcaa and whey...but hell....I didn't WANT to do it. I had to do it.

[Sporto1633]

yup....I did basically lyle's sfs protocol modified with bcaa and whey...but hell....I didn't WANT to do it. I had to do it.

Holy hell - that had to have been TORTURE! I was doing it fed and I felt like death everytime LOL

Sporto

[iForce Dave]

i did all my cardio fasted. If I didnt do it first thing in the AM i didnt do it at all.

Because A: I think its more effective, and B: it forced me to do iteverytime, because I would try like hell to make sure I never missed it.

[DanTheManB]

Felt good today. The hunger pangs go away after about 10 minutes in...feels good when done ;)

[thepacman]

yup....I did basically lyle's sfs protocol modified with bcaa and whey...but hell....I didn't WANT to do it. I had to do it.


Holy hell - that had to have been TORTURE! I was doing it fed and I felt like death everytime LOL

Sporto

Geez. I have to have a full meal in me to even read his protocol.

[Sporto1633]

I think its more effective

Why?

And more effective in terms of what? Overall fat/weight loss, or also retaining muscle?

You do realize we now have research done in humans that proves otherwise, right?

Sporto

[Cumulonimbus]

I do HIIT 3 times a week in the morning 'fasted' while sipping on some BCAA's.

Then about 40 minutes of incline walking post workout with some BCAA's, sipping through out my workout and cardio.

[Sporto1633]

I do HIIT 3 times a week in the morning 'fasted' while sipping on some BCAA's.

The last thing you want to do is HIIT fasted if you plan on retaining muscle. You can't do a high intensity interval session where glucose is the fuel source without any glucose and expect the body not to break down protein to convert into glucose.

It won't break fat down to turn into glucose, it will break down your muscle to do so...

If you insist on fasted cardio, it needs to be lower intensity/steady state unless you are WAY behind and don't care about sacrficing a lot of muscle.

Match the fuel source to the activity...

Sporto

[DanTheManB]

The last thing you want to do is HIIT fasted if you plan on retaining muscle. You can't do a high intensity interval session where glucose is the fuel source without any glucose and expect the body not to break down protein to convert into glucose.

It won't break fat down to turn into glucose, it will break down your muscle to do so...

If you insist on fasted cardio, it needs to be lower intensity/steady state unless you are WAY behind and don't care about sacrficing a lot of muscle.

Match the fuel source to the activity...

Sporto

so incline walking WOULD be considered moderate intensity? i suppose depends on the incline/mph also. makes me sweat as much as any other form too

[Sporto1633]

so incline walking WOULD be considered moderate intensity? i suppose depends on the incline/mph also. makes me sweat as much as any other form too

I think incline walking is fine...of course it depends on the speed and incline of the walk.

Things to monitor to distinguish between the two are
-wear and tear on the legs
-how fast heart rate is
-how elevated respiratory system is

Sporto

[Sporto1633]

1: J Appl Physiol. 2008 Apr;104(4):1045-55. Epub 2008 Feb 14.
Effect of training in the fasted state on metabolic responses during exercise with carbohydrate intake.
De Bock K, Derave W, Eijnde BO, Hesselink MK, Koninckx E, Rose AJ, Schrauwen P, Bonen A, Richter EA, Hespel P.

Research Center for Exercise and Health, F.A.B.E.R. - K.U.Leuven, Tervuursevest 101, B-3001 Leuven Heverlee, Belgium.

Skeletal muscle gene response to exercise depends on nutritional status during and after exercise, but it is unknown whether muscle adaptations to endurance training are affected by nutritional status during training sessions. Therefore, this study investigated the effect of an endurance training program (6 wk, 3 day/wk, 1-2 h, 75% of peak Vo(2)) in moderately active males. They trained in the fasted (F; n = 10) or carbohydrate-fed state (CHO; n = 10) while receiving a standardized diet [65 percent of total energy intake (En) from carbohydrates, 20%En fat, 15%En protein]. Before and after the training period, substrate use during a 2-h exercise bout was determined. During these experimental sessions, all subjects were in a fed condition and received extra carbohydrates (1 g.kg body wt(-1) .h(-1)). Peak Vo(2) (+7%), succinate dehydrogenase activity, GLUT4, and hexokinase II content were similarly increased between F and CHO. Fatty acid binding protein (FABPm) content increased significantly in F (P = 0.007). Intramyocellular triglyceride content (IMCL) remained unchanged in both groups. After training, pre-exercise glycogen content was higher in CHO (545 +/- 19 mmol/kg dry wt; P = 0.02), but not in F (434 +/- 32 mmol/kg dry wt; P = 0.23). For a given initial glycogen content, F blunted exercise-induced glycogen breakdown when compared with CHO (P = 0.04). Neither IMCL breakdown (P = 0.23) nor fat oxidation rates during exercise were altered by training. Thus short-term training elicits similar adaptations in peak Vo(2) whether carried out in the fasted or carbohydrate-fed state. Although there was a decrease in exercise-induced glycogen breakdown and an increase in proteins involved in fat handling after fasting training, fat oxidation during exercise with carbohydrate intake was not changed.



And there you have it...

So the question remains, if there is no added benefit to fasted cardio over fed cardio, then why? Since long-term and short-term breakdowns essentially add up the net same over the same period of time, then it's not going to matter...

Sporto

[co1e_train]

Match the fuel source to the activity...

Sporto

This^^^

For me personally my schedule made it so that normally 2-3 of my cardio sessions were "fasted" but I always had Xtend before hand, even sometimes a small amount of oats, like a spoonful. Didn't Dr. Joe say in an interview (nbb radio I think) that having some form of carbs before fasted cardio was beneficial for your body to help your body burn more bf?

Otherwise I would do cardio after my weight training. I would take my post workout shake and then do cardio for 25-40 mins.

-train

[Cumulonimbus]

Sporto, my HIIT is 5 minutes of a moderate 'walk' speed (I do it on the elliptical in the basement while watching some TV, don't have time to do it outside before school) and a 30 second all out 'sprint' (once again can't call it exactly a sprint since I'm not on foot) So basically:
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
Cooldown

[Sporto1633]

Sporto, my HIIT is 5 minutes of a moderate 'walk' speed (I do it on the elliptical in the basement while watching some TV, don't have time to do it outside before school) and a 30 second all out 'sprint' (once again can't call it exactly a sprint since I'm not on foot) So basically:
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
Cooldown

Ok...

1) I wouldn't exactly call that HIIT
2) Why are you doing your "intervals" in that fashion?

Sporto

[Cumulonimbus]

I use to do a 2 minute walk 45 second sprint but my heart rate was way to quick during my walking phase and it seemed as if I was always at 75-80%.

[Sporto1633]

I use to do a 2 minute walk 45 second sprint but my heart rate was way to quick during my walking phase and it seemed as if I was always at 75-80%.

Ok, what do you think is the whole point of HIIT?

*hint* it stands for "High Intensity Interval Training"

Sporto

[jth16]

Sporto, my HIIT is 5 minutes of a moderate 'walk' speed (I do it on the elliptical in the basement while watching some TV, don't have time to do it outside before school) and a 30 second all out 'sprint' (once again can't call it exactly a sprint since I'm not on foot) So basically:
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
5 minute walk - 30 second sprint
Cooldown

It's really hard to call an intensity you can hold for 30 seconds a sprint or high intensity. You can't maintain the intensity you're aiming for during HIIT for more than 15 seconds. Maybe 20 seconds if it's one of the first few intervals. After the first handful of intervals you should be spewing sweat, heart beating out of your chest, barely making it through to the 15/20 second mark. The last 2-5 seconds of each interval should make you light-headed.

[Cumulonimbus]

It's really hard to call an intensity you can hold for 30 seconds a sprint or high intensity. You can't maintain the intensity you're aiming for during HIIT for more than 15 seconds. Maybe 20 seconds if it's one of the first few intervals. After the first handful of intervals you should be spewing sweat, heart beating out of your chest, barely making it through to the 15/20 second mark. The last 2-5 seconds of each interval should make you light-headed.

I usually feel like vomiting after each set of sprints, even though they are 30-45 seconds. When I did them outside last year I do 100 meter sprints all out, then walk back, repeat about 10 times. Warm weather is coming in and I'm dieting so more sleep/going to sleep earlier = having more time to do it outside.

[AustrianOakJr]

1: J Appl Physiol. 2008 Apr;104(4):1045-55. Epub 2008 Feb 14.
Effect of training in the fasted state on metabolic responses during exercise with carbohydrate intake.
De Bock K, Derave W, Eijnde BO, Hesselink MK, Koninckx E, Rose AJ, Schrauwen P, Bonen A, Richter EA, Hespel P.

Research Center for Exercise and Health, F.A.B.E.R. - K.U.Leuven, Tervuursevest 101, B-3001 Leuven Heverlee, Belgium.

Skeletal muscle gene response to exercise depends on nutritional status during and after exercise, but it is unknown whether muscle adaptations to endurance training are affected by nutritional status during training sessions. Therefore, this study investigated the effect of an endurance training program (6 wk, 3 day/wk, 1-2 h, 75% of peak Vo(2)) in moderately active males. They trained in the fasted (F; n = 10) or carbohydrate-fed state (CHO; n = 10) while receiving a standardized diet [65 percent of total energy intake (En) from carbohydrates, 20%En fat, 15%En protein]. Before and after the training period, substrate use during a 2-h exercise bout was determined. During these experimental sessions, all subjects were in a fed condition and received extra carbohydrates (1 g.kg body wt(-1) .h(-1)). Peak Vo(2) (+7%), succinate dehydrogenase activity, GLUT4, and hexokinase II content were similarly increased between F and CHO. Fatty acid binding protein (FABPm) content increased significantly in F (P = 0.007). Intramyocellular triglyceride content (IMCL) remained unchanged in both groups. After training, pre-exercise glycogen content was higher in CHO (545 +/- 19 mmol/kg dry wt; P = 0.02), but not in F (434 +/- 32 mmol/kg dry wt; P = 0.23). For a given initial glycogen content, F blunted exercise-induced glycogen breakdown when compared with CHO (P = 0.04). Neither IMCL breakdown (P = 0.23) nor fat oxidation rates during exercise were altered by training. Thus short-term training elicits similar adaptations in peak Vo(2) whether carried out in the fasted or carbohydrate-fed state. Although there was a decrease in exercise-induced glycogen breakdown and an increase in proteins involved in fat handling after fasting training, fat oxidation during exercise with carbohydrate intake was not changed.



And there you have it...

So the question remains, if there is no added benefit to fasted cardio over fed cardio, then why? Since long-term and short-term breakdowns essentially add up the net same over the same period of time, then it's not going to matter...

Sporto


Tommy, this abstract points to a study done at 75% Vo2......which would really be considered like MISS training.....maybe 80% or so of your max heart rate. Do you know of anything that can be referenced to back this claim up more for LISS....at say, more in the 65% Vo2 range?? One of the studies that I have seen, the numbers swing a little bit in favor of fasted cardio at a lower HR.....which makes sense.....the lower the HR, the more your tapping into fat rather than glucose, but youre also burning less total calories......so theres a catch 22 there.

[Cumulonimbus]

Tommy, this abstract points to a study done at 75% Vo2......which would really be considered like MISS training.....maybe 80% or so of your max heart rate. Do you know of anything that can be referenced to back this claim up more for LISS....at say, more in the 65% Vo2 range?? One of the studies that I have seen, the numbers swing a little bit in favor of fasted cardio at a lower HR.....which makes sense.....the lower the HR, the more your tapping into fat rather than glucose, but youre also burning less total calories......so theres a catch 22 there.

That was what I was doing with my 5 min - 30 second sprint cardio.

[Quelly]

Holy hell - that had to have been TORTURE! I was doing it fed and I felt like death everytime LOL

Sporto

...lets just say I didn't look forward to my alarm going off...

[AustrianOakJr]

That was what I was doing with my 5 min - 30 second sprint cardio.

If your HR is in the 80% max range.....like a steady jog or even intervals like youre doing that might put the heart in a medium intensity range or above.....the studies show that you are better off eating going into your exercise. The thing is.....anytime you are operating in the higher intensities, the total amount of fat oxidation during the exercise is relatively low compared to glucose use. This goes for MISS or HIIT cardio. And the amount of fat oxidation does not change with carbs in your system......so the body is getting its glucose one way or the other....either from the food you just ingested or through converting your muscle tissue (if you didn't eat prior). Id rather have the food in my system ;). There is, however, debate surrounding LISS cardio and the studies I have seen seem to show that the amount of fat oxidation to glucose is greater at the lower heart rates and that having glucose immediately available (by eating carbs prior) lowers the total amount of fat oxidation for the session....but the difference is not huge.