Interesting way to negate fat gain on a bulk

[RandyJH]

Over the past few days my mind has began to wonder about different approaches to training/nutrition in regards to bodybuilding. For the most part the two big types of dieting have been cutting and bulking cycles, and of course there are other less popular types as well. However, the one that I have never put a whole ton of thought into is calorie cycling. So far, most of the calorie/carbohydrate cycling diets didn?t really impress me, and didn?t seem to offer a significant metabolic advantage over a more traditional approach. This got me wondering if I could possibly come up with something better myself.
The idea that came up with would be a type of diet/training that would allow you to gain muscle, while minimizing/nullifying fat gain. It seems to make sense in theory, but I?ll let you guys be the judge of that. I?ll try my best to neatly outline my ideas for you.
First of all, before I get into why I feel it would work well and the reasoning behind it I might as well tell you the basics of it. The diet would consist of a 300 calorie surplus 6 days out of the week, and 1 day out of the week you perform a PSMF type diet. Of course training would have to be pretty specific with the diet, but I?ll try to touch on that in a bit.
So according to math 6 x 300= A weekly surplus of 1800 calories.
For the next part, let?s assume the dieter has a maintenance level of 3000 calories a day. We?ll also say he is a relatively lean individual with 165 lbs LBM.
So now he?s at his day where he does a PSMF. Based on his stats we will put him at about 250-320 grams of protein per day. Assuming trace calories from veggies, fish oil soft gels, and things of that nature his calories will come out between 1100 and 1400. This leaves him with a deficit between 1600 and 1900.
Now as I mentioned before the training would have to be specific on this diet. Our goal should be, to be in a calorie surplus any time that the majority of muscle repair and growth needs to occur. Also, any time the MPS (muscle protein synthesis) is peaked would be a time that we want to be in a calorie surplus as well. Some of the training schedules that would allow for that would be as followed.

Monday: Upper (300 cal surplus)
Tuesday: Lower (300 cal surplus)
Wednesday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Thursday: Upper (300 cal surplus)
Friday: Lower (300 cal surplus) ~~~I would also say a morning workout here might be a good idea (MPS stays elevated for a few days after training)
Saturday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Sunday: Rest (PSMF diet)
Another type of training that would well in the context of the right trainee would be as followed.
Monday: Full Body compound movements (300 cal surplus)
Tuesday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Wednesday: Full Body compound movements (300 cal surplus)
Thursday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Friday: Full Body compound movements (300 cal surplus) ~~Once again a morning workout might not be a bad idea
Saturday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Sunday: Rest (PSMF diet)

The point of the specific training split is to use the caloric surplus days to your advantage. This should have optimized muscle growth and recovery.
Basically to sum it up the diet would allow you to train in a caloric surplus during the week, and then with 1 day of a properly executed PSMF diet, negate all fat gain. If you got really nitpicky with it you could in theory cut body fat lbs at the same time.

I?m sure I?m missing some details, but it is 2:30 in the morning so cut me some slack, hah.
I am open to all criticism, comments, and questions. Hopefully someone finds this interesting.

[RandyJH]

Also, I appologize for the random "?" symbols, I typed it in word as it makes life much easier that way.

[T3mpest]

Over the past few days my mind has began to wonder about different approaches to training/nutrition in regards to bodybuilding. For the most part the two big types of dieting have been cutting and bulking cycles, and of course there are other less popular types as well. However, the one that I have never put a whole ton of thought into is calorie cycling. So far, most of the calorie/carbohydrate cycling diets didn?t really impress me, and didn?t seem to offer a significant metabolic advantage over a more traditional approach. This got me wondering if I could possibly come up with something better myself.
The idea that came up with would be a type of diet/training that would allow you to gain muscle, while minimizing/nullifying fat gain. It seems to make sense in theory, but I?ll let you guys be the judge of that. I?ll try my best to neatly outline my ideas for you.
First of all, before I get into why I feel it would work well and the reasoning behind it I might as well tell you the basics of it. The diet would consist of a 300 calorie surplus 6 days out of the week, and 1 day out of the week you perform a PSMF type diet. Of course training would have to be pretty specific with the diet, but I?ll try to touch on that in a bit.
So according to math 6 x 300= A weekly surplus of 1800 calories.
For the next part, let?s assume the dieter has a maintenance level of 3000 calories a day. We?ll also say he is a relatively lean individual with 165 lbs LBM.
So now he?s at his day where he does a PSMF. Based on his stats we will put him at about 250-320 grams of protein per day. Assuming trace calories from veggies, fish oil soft gels, and things of that nature his calories will come out between 1100 and 1400. This leaves him with a deficit between 1600 and 1900.
Now as I mentioned before the training would have to be specific on this diet. Our goal should be, to be in a calorie surplus any time that the majority of muscle repair and growth needs to occur. Also, any time the MPS (muscle protein synthesis) is peaked would be a time that we want to be in a calorie surplus as well. Some of the training schedules that would allow for that would be as followed.

Monday: Upper (300 cal surplus)
Tuesday: Lower (300 cal surplus)
Wednesday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Thursday: Upper (300 cal surplus)
Friday: Lower (300 cal surplus) ~~~I would also say a morning workout here might be a good idea (MPS stays elevated for a few days after training)
Saturday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Sunday: Rest (PSMF diet)
Another type of training that would well in the context of the right trainee would be as followed.
Monday: Full Body compound movements (300 cal surplus)
Tuesday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Wednesday: Full Body compound movements (300 cal surplus)
Thursday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Friday: Full Body compound movements (300 cal surplus) ~~Once again a morning workout might not be a bad idea
Saturday: Rest (300 cal surplus)
Sunday: Rest (PSMF diet)

The point of the specific training split is to use the caloric surplus days to your advantage. This should have optimized muscle growth and recovery.
Basically to sum it up the diet would allow you to train in a caloric surplus during the week, and then with 1 day of a properly executed PSMF diet, negate all fat gain. If you got really nitpicky with it you could in theory cut body fat lbs at the same time.

I?m sure I?m missing some details, but it is 2:30 in the morning so cut me some slack, hah.
I am open to all criticism, comments, and questions. Hopefully someone finds this interesting.


I've followed a routine similar to this and had good results. I only train 2 days out of the week so I would eat around 300 over main on workout days and the day following. The second day after a workout I would cut to 500 below or so. That with some LISS cardio everyday and generally low carbing most of the time except PWO I added quite a bit of mass and no fat to speak of. MY BF actually dropped some because my weight gain was so clean that proportionally, I lost BF %'s.

[RandyJH]

I've followed a routine similar to this and had good results. I only train 2 days out of the week so I would eat around 300 over main on workout days and the day following. The second day after a workout I would cut to 500 below or so. That with some LISS cardio everyday and generally low carbing most of the time except PWO I added quite a bit of mass and no fat to speak of. MY BF actually dropped some because my weight gain was so clean that proportionally, I lost BF %'s.

I think our ideas a bit different, but its cool to see you found something that yielded good results for ya! When you trained 2x a week, were you doing full body training each day?

[Thebigcorbowski]

I think our ideas a bit different, but its cool to see you found something that yielded good results for ya! When you trained 2x a week, were you doing full body training each day?
It's a brilliant idea in theory. You're a smart dude, so I'd trust it to work well. As for me, I'm still around 16-17% BF, but when I get a little lower Ima try it out.

[Opies]

this relies on one base assumption, which is that your body can burn a very high amount of fat in one day (what you added throughout the week) This may or may not be physiologically possible

[Emma-Leigh]

this relies on one base assumption, which is that your body can burn a very high amount of fat in one day (what you added throughout the week) This may or may not be physiologically possible
^
which it doesn't.... All you'd do is lower your glycogen levels and prevent yourself from feeling overly stuffed the whole time.... ;)

Anyway > there are lots of diets that do similar to this/ promote under/over feeding on variable days (high cal x number of days, low cal x number of days), eg: bodyopus, UD2, and step-wise carb cycling.

But as most of them suggest - these things work better with 2-3 days underfeeding then 4-5 overfeeding.

eg:
Day 1 - PUSH / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 2 - PULL / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 3 - LEGS / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 4 - REST / - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 5 - REST/ - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 6 - UPPER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 7 - LOWER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 8 - REST / up to + 10% from maintenance
Day 1 - PUSH / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 2 - PULL / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 3 - LEGS / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 4 - REST / - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 5 - REST/ - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 6 - UPPER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 7 - LOWER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 8 - REST / up to + 10% from maintenance

[RandyJH]

^
which it doesn't.... All you'd do is lower your glycogen levels and prevent yourself from feeling overly stuffed the whole time.... ;)

Anyway > there are lots of diets that do similar to this/ promote under/over feeding on variable days (high cal x number of days, low cal x number of days), eg: bodyopus, UD2, and step-wise carb cycling.

But as most of them suggest - these things work better with 2-3 days underfeeding then 4-5 overfeeding.

eg:
Day 1 - PUSH / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 2 - PULL / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 3 - LEGS / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 4 - REST / - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 5 - REST/ - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 6 - UPPER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 7 - LOWER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 8 - REST / up to + 10% from maintenance
Day 1 - PUSH / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 2 - PULL / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 3 - LEGS / + 10-15% from maintenance
Day 4 - REST / - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 5 - REST/ - 10-20% from maintenance
Day 6 - UPPER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 7 - LOWER / + 20-25% from maintenance
Day 8 - REST / up to + 10% from maintenance

Very interesting! Have their been many studies done on the max levels of fat that can be burned in one day?

[RandyJH]

this relies on one base assumption, which is that your body can burn a very high amount of fat in one day (what you added throughout the week) This may or may not be physiologically possible

Its a bit of a stretch, but I am curious about this and will be searching for some literature on that as well.

Thanks for the input!

[Emma-Leigh]

Very interesting! Have their been many studies done on the max levels of fat that can be burned in one day?
Yes (read me -->> THREAD HERE (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=392233011) ) but this sort of study wouldn't be applicable. As mentioned - coming off overfeeding all that would happen is that you'd drop water weight...

[bodydropcris]

so what you are saying is that if you eat 500 calories over your maintenance one day, and then the next day you are in a 1500 calorie deficit you wont burn any fat?

[Vietgoboi]

so what you are saying is that if you eat 500 calories over your maintenance one day, and then the next day you are in a 1500 calorie deficit you wont burn any fat?
Logically that should work!

Note* Remember the body is constantly storing & utilizing fat, it has no understanding of 24 hour limitations.

[devo09]

I wonder how this would work compared to a diet consisting of maintainence (or +100-150) calories every day, timely cardio, and a progressive resistance training program....
My guess is just about the same.

I don't see it being effective because in most cases it's going to take 2-3 days to just oxidize the excess carbs from bulking before you're actually going to be "losing fat"

IMO

[determined4000]

Based on this, your net calories would be about 0 for the week. I would tend to think that number would have to be a + in order for their to be any real muscle gains. I also think such a large deficit would probably not be very muscle sparing. It would probably make more sense (in my non-professional opinion) if you are going to train for 6 days to be in a 200 surplus (1200 surplus for the week) and then 600 deficit (leaving you still with less than a 100 calorie surplus per day for the week). If fat gains seemed to high I would cut calories on my surplus days before cutting on deficit day.

Personally I think a 3 day on 1 off would be better (or anything that had slightly more days off) so that deficit days would not have to be too great and surplus days could be larger.

[Emma-Leigh]

so what you are saying is that if you eat 500 calories over your maintenance one day, and then the next day you are in a 1500 calorie deficit you wont burn any fat?
No.
I am saying if you eat 6 days over maintenance then 1 day under, it is likely you will not 'burn a maximal amount of fat' regardless of your calorie deficit. ;)

[RandyJH]

Yes (read me -->> THREAD HERE (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=392233011) ) but this sort of study wouldn't be applicable. As mentioned - coming off overfeeding all that would happen is that you'd drop water weight...

Thank you! Hopefully I'll have time to read through that tomorrow a bit.


Based on this, your net calories would be about 0 for the week. I would tend to think that number would have to be a + in order for their to be any real muscle gains. I also think such a large deficit would probably not be very muscle sparing. It would probably make more sense (in my non-professional opinion) if you are going to train for 6 days to be in a 200 surplus (1200 surplus for the week) and then 600 deficit (leaving you still with less than a 100 calorie surplus per day for the week). If fat gains seemed to high I would cut calories on my surplus days before cutting on deficit day.

Personally I think a 3 day on 1 off would be better (or anything that had slightly more days off) so that deficit days would not have to be too great and surplus days could be larger.

Actually I would recommend you do some research on PSMF type diets, its surprising how effective they can be at sparing LBM given the correct parameters. But I could see their being benefits to a 3 on 1 type as well.

Thank you all for your input, its greatly appreciated!

I plan on trying out something similar to this someday, but for now I'm just taking a more "laid back approach" to dieting. I just make sure I get enough protein, and eat when I'm hungry right now and I seem to do well.

[Emma-Leigh]

Thank you! Hopefully I'll have time to read through that tomorrow a bit.



Actually I would recommend you do some research on PSMF type diets, its surprising how effective they can be at sparing LBM given the correct parameters. But I could see their being benefits to a 3 on 1 type as well.

Thank you all for your input, its greatly appreciated!

I plan on trying out something similar to this someday, but for now I'm just taking a more "laid back approach" to dieting. I just make sure I get enough protein, and eat when I'm hungry right now and I seem to do well.
Or if not PSMF, you could also do something such as this:


Am J Clin Nutr. 2009 Sep 30.

Short-term modified alternate-day fasting: a novel dietary strategy for weight loss and cardioprotection in obese adults.

Varady KA, Bhutani S, Church EC, Klempel MC.

Department of Kinesiology and Nutrition, University of Illinois at Chicago, Chicago, IL.

BACKGROUND: The ability of modified alternate-day fasting (ADF; ie, consuming 25% of energy needs on the fast day and ad libitum food intake on the following day) to facilitate weight loss and lower vascular disease risk in obese individuals remains unknown. OBJECTIVE: This study examined the effects of ADF that is administered under controlled compared with self-implemented conditions on body weight and coronary artery disease (CAD) risk indicators in obese adults. DESIGN: Sixteen obese subjects (12 women, 4 men) completed a 10-wk trial, which consisted of 3 phases: 1) a 2-wk control phase, 2) a 4-wk weight loss/ADF controlled food intake phase, and 3) a 4-wk weight loss/ADF self-selected food intake phase. RESULTS: Dietary adherence remained high throughout the controlled food intake phase (days adherent: 86%) and the self-selected food intake phase (days adherent: 89%). The rate of weight loss remained constant during controlled food intake (0.67 +/- 0.1 kg/wk) and self-selected food intake phases (0.68 +/- 0.1 kg/wk). Body weight decreased (P < 0.001) by 5.6 +/- 1.0 kg (5.8 +/- 1.1%) after 8 wk of diet. Percentage body fat decreased (P < 0.01) from 45 +/- 2% to 42 +/- 2%. Total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, and triacylglycerol concentrations were lowered (P < 0.01) by 21 +/- 4%, 25 +/- 10%, and 32 +/- 6%, respectively, after 8 wk of ADF, whereas HDL cholesterol remained unchanged. Systolic blood pressure decreased (P < 0.05) from 124 +/- 5 to 116 +/- 3 mm Hg. CONCLUSION: These findings suggest that ADF is a viable diet option to help obese individuals lose weight and decrease CAD risk. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as UIC-004-2009.

But... well.... not exactly like that.... But something I sometimes use in my trainee's who can't get to the gym often is a high/ low type pattern.... and you can run it a number of ways....

Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 4 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 5 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 6 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 7 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals

Or even something like this:
Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 4 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 5 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 6 - Maintain
Day 7 - Maintain

I have one (already well trained) woman who can only get to the gym 2 x a week (fri and sun) and she has managed to recompose very nicely on a low/ high feeding pattern.

^
it is all about finding something that works for the individual, something that fits in their life, and still lets them reach their goals.

[RandyJH]

Or if not PSMF, you could also do something such as this:



But... well.... not exactly like that.... But something I sometimes use in my trainee's who can't get to the gym often is a high/ low type pattern.... and you can run it a number of ways....

Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 4 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 5 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 6 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 7 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals

Or even something like this:
Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 4 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 5 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 6 - Maintain
Day 7 - Maintain

I have one (already well trained) woman who can only get to the gym 2 x a week (fri and sun) and she has managed to recompose very nicely on a low/ high feeding pattern.

^
it is all about finding something that works for the individual, something that fits in their life, and still lets them reach their goals.


As always Emma I am impressed, thank you again. Both of those ideas seem to make perfect sense. What I also found interesting was the level of adherance on those types of diets, its surprisingly very high for some reason.

[determined4000]

Or if not PSMF, you could also do something such as this:



But... well.... not exactly like that.... But something I sometimes use in my trainee's who can't get to the gym often is a high/ low type pattern.... and you can run it a number of ways....

Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 4 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 5 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 6 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 7 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals

Or even something like this:
Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 4 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 5 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 6 - Maintain
Day 7 - Maintain

I have one (already well trained) woman who can only get to the gym 2 x a week (fri and sun) and she has managed to recompose very nicely on a low/ high feeding pattern.

^
it is all about finding something that works for the individual, something that fits in their life, and still lets them reach their goals.

Emma- 2 questions

1. (somewhat off-topic) If you aren't calorie cycling but just working out regularly, is there a benefit to back-to-back days rest (such as 5-6on 2 off repeat vs 3 on 1 off repeat)? I have 3 workouts (upper push, lower, upper pull). Or is the multiple days rest just better for those doing full-body and less workouts per week (with calorie cycling)?
2. For calorie cycling, is fat-carb ratio at all important. Obviously each or one would be reduced on low calorie days and increase/decrease in calories overall are most important, but is it better to increase/decrease the ratio based on if it is a workout day or not?

[Emma-Leigh]

Emma- 2 questions

1. (somewhat off-topic) If you aren't calorie cycling but just working out regularly, is there a benefit to back-to-back days rest (such as 5-6on 2 off repeat vs 3 on 1 off repeat)? I have 3 workouts (upper push, lower, upper pull). Or is the multiple days rest just better for those doing full-body and less workouts per week (with calorie cycling)?
2. For calorie cycling, is fat-carb ratio at all important. Obviously each or one would be reduced on low calorie days and increase/decrease in calories overall are most important, but is it better to increase/decrease the ratio based on if it is a workout day or not?
1. Depends... ;) Overall I think that for most everyday people who train with relative consistency and effort, who are not *enhanced* - then anything more than about 3 days in a row on the weights floor is not conducive to recovery (*note: depends on your training - if you are doing low volume 'split' work, then a few more might be ok... but I really wouldn't suggest doing that sort of training anyway.... similarly, if you mix in cardio then a higher ratio of, say, 4 to 6 days in a row would be ok... But that would depend, once again, on what you were doing eg: high intensity/ lower intensity/ workout length etc as well as your overall ability to recover)....

For weights - >> It is generally found that if you wanted to get GOOD benefit from your rest - then at least 2 days off in a row every now and again would allows full recovery before you hit the floor again... I know many who get good gains using a 1:1 work to rest ratio and even a 3:2 work:rest ratio....

However, as I said, this depends on what you are training for and how you are training... eg: is the program you are doing periodised/ alternate heavy/light days? Does it include cross training? < these things are measures that help decrease the need for breaks.

Anyway -> there are a million different ways you could do it.... examples:
3 on/ 2 off
2 on/ 2 off
3 on/ 1 off/ 3 on/ 2 off
2 on/ 1 off/ 2 on/ 2 off
1 on/ 2 off
1 on/ 1 off/ 1 on/ 1 off/ 1 on/ 2 off
3 on/ 1 off/ 2 on/ 1 off
on/ off/ on/ off/ on/ off
2 on/ 1 off/ 2 on/ 1 off/ 1 on/ 1 off
etc etc....


2. Your question is confusing.... But ratio of carbs:fat is not the issue alone - it needs to be looked at in the context of what you are trying to achieve, and the total values of each in relation to your body.....

eg:
If your concern is just LOW calories -> then lower both/ either as you so wish.
If it is LOW CARB to deplete glycogen -> lower carbs more.
If it is PERFORMANCE -> then ensure you get adequate carbs to maintain training needs + adequate fats to meet EFA needs + additional fat needs for performance.
^
And whether or not it is a workout day or not and what impact that has on your choice will depend, once again, on what the workout aims to do.... eg: If you are wanting to deplete glycogen - don't eat carbs. ;) If you are aiming to get a maximal sparing effect on lean mass - a little more carb may be more beneficial....

Nothing is 'all or nothing'. ;)

[klir_2m]

Or even something like this:
Day 1 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 2 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 3 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 4 - Rest and -10-15% cals
Day 5 - Full Body Workout and +20% cals
Day 6 - Maintain
Day 7 - Maintain



I did almost exactly this for a while and basically treaded water with weight. Whether or not I added significant muscle and lost fat, I'm not really sure. My weight stayed the same, my definition didn't change, while my lifts did go up steadily. When I switched to a full-fledged bulk the results were immediate and dramatically more apparent. So a plan like this is good for maintaining, but for putting on mass, it doesn't work very well.

When I started my bulk it was based on Layne Norton's theory that I read in the big FAQ compilation someone made of his posts, where he said cyclical diets across a one week span don't give the body enough time to adapt metabolically. He recommends doing a longer bulk, say 4-6 weeks, followed by a 2 week or so cut. This way the metabolic adaptations of one mode get firmly established and enhance the effects of switching, because the body has to re-adapt to the new calorie availability. It seems to make good sense to me, and the dramatic difference between doing a full-fledged bulk and a "targeted bulk" (as I called my previous diet plan) reinforces this theory in my mind.